Tom: The answer is, in a word, education, and all the complexity, repetition, reiteration,
personal research, stating conclusions, etc. that involves. There's no shortcut, no single
way of stating our case that's going to win people over. We're dealing with something
which is as deep as religion, it IS religion, and religion doesn't change easily or rapidly.
And, it doesn't change just because someone has come up with a good way of explaining
its errors. It however will never change unless we speak clearly and in one voice, get better
at our explanation. People are psychologically invested in those errors; just because
people aren't converting doesn't mean there's a problem with our method; most people
are beyond conversion. All the more reason to stick to our core materials, among others
the Guide to Naturalism, Encountering Naturalism, and hope for the best.

Like atheists who cannot avoid stating that they don't believe in god, I believe we have to
state clearly that we don't believe in any sort of free will other than the no one's holding a
gun to my head sort, and not even exaggerate the significance of that. If we do, we lose all
the guilt/shame/retribution relief we'd otherwise be able to provide. And, that this does
not mean we are connection-less, compassion-less, or control-less. Quite the opposite,
we see this insight as the key to a new greater sense of connection, compassion and
control than has been seen before, than any supernatural religion has been able to
support.

We will lose most people when they understand what we are saying, which, though
unfortunate, is unavoidable, if we are to be clear. And we must be clear. Because reading
the conversation that's taken place here over the last few days almost anyone would reach
the conclusion that we're not at all sure what the implications of naturalism are. We need
to state clearly that no one has the ability to, in a given circumstance, to do other than
they actually do. And, that that is not required for morality, compassion, self-compassion,
creativity, political freedom, etc.

My own part in diminishing this internal squabbling is to shift my efforts back to the other
list, I invite anyone who feels they are on board with the ideas expressed in the Guide to
Naturalism to join me there.

Ken