Hey Joey,
  I thought I had your email address written down but guess I don't, please email
me when you have a chance, it's about that wood we talked about at Native
Rhythms. :-)
  Beth
(bethbluejeep@...)

Bryan,

Black and red palm wood can be beautiful, but it's a real pain to work with.
It's hard and brittle, and splinters badly. I would suggest keeping your tools
extra sharp and taking it slow. I have one piece left in my shop, and when I
finish that flute, I'm swearing off the stuff.

Good luck!

Lee

--- In nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com, "bryan" <btowers@...> wrote:
>
> Does any one have any experiences with black palm wood ?
> I just discovered it and think it would make an awesome looking flute.
> Bryan
>

As a point of reference I uploaded some pictures of the bansuri plug. The blue
part points south in the bore.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nativeflutewoodworking/photos/album/1907494135/pic\
/2037512145/view?picmode=large&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&dir=asc


Steve Petermann

Mike,

Great.  I'd be interested in hearing about the results.

Steve Petermann




--- In nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jones <jonesmr@...>
wrote:
>
> That is an interesting thought about the use of an acoustic antireflective
surface. I may have to try that with the same flute that I did the backset
experiment with.
>
> Mike Jones
>

Bout time:>)
  Kuz


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A minor correction, Donn. That is the SHAK tuner or Tuner_e. It was designed by
a shakuhachi maker and is completely free. The flutini program that was
mentioned earlier allows you to play a short piece and it analyzes each note as
you play. The more you play a note the better stats are provided and then you
can look at the list of notes played and how well in tune they played. By using
flutini you can see how accurate the tuning is while you are playing , which
very well could be different than playing a staic single long note. Both are
good tools to use.

I also use the PC based tuner called TuneIt. It is not very expensive and has a
30 day trial for it.

The 2 tuner programs are nice in that they will display the actual frequency of
the note being played which gives you a much better feel for how close you are
and how fast you are approaching the desired note. They also have some other
tools like spectral display. Much better than a little hand held tuner, in my
opinion. I do have TuneIt on my pocket PC so I have a little portable unit
smaller than my laptop computer, too. I usually just take my laptop to the
garage when I tune, that way I have all my spreadsheets and other tools
available, as well as the tuner.

Mike Jones



----- Original Message ----
From: tejasmed <tejasmed@...>
To: nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, November 22, 2009 7:35:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Native Flute Woodworking] Re: Fine tuning flutes

Charlie:

good points on breath and tuning.

I used one of those guitar tuners until Mike J convinced me to use the Sak Tuner
on the computer.  When you blow, the arrow is either in the blue, or positive or
negative to the note. 
You are right...though...sometimes you have to blow harder to make the note go
into the blue zone.  If I see that, then it tells me that something in the
construction on the flute is wrong and needs adjusting.  That note should be
dead on, or a little less or above when blowing harder. 
I have learned to like the program....it helps keep you honest and prevents
sloppy tuning and craftsmanship.

Tejas

The long awaited web site from Russ Wolf is finally up.

http://www.russwolfflutes.com/

Rick

That is an interesting thought about the use of an acoustic antireflective
surface. I may have to try that with the same flute that I did the backset
experiment with.

Mike Jones



----- Original Message ----
From: Steve <sgpetermann@...>
To: nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, November 22, 2009 2:34:39 PM
Subject: [Native Flute Woodworking] Re: Backset Theory

Mike,

Thanks for the file reference. Very interesting. I like the idea that the shape
of the backset should not be much of a factor. I route the bore so that can save
the effort of removing the radius.

In line with the impedance approach here's some interesting food for thought, I
think.  I ordered a bansuri from the internet to get some details on how they're
made.  It has very little backset but the interesting part is that the plug is
made of some sort of foam.  It reminds me of the material used for foam ear
plugs.  So, my guess is that this material would minimize the activity of the
backset volume in higher frequencies.  Just as foam ear plugs attenuate high
frequencies, so I would think this plug would also attentuate any high frequency
effects of the backset.

So, I did a little experiment with the bansuri and found that the upper octaves
for all the notes were only about 5-15 cents flat even for the top D5/D6 notes.
It was even fairly consistent from one note to the next. Now, granted my
embouchure is not the greatest, but I checked it several times. 


Steve Petermann

Thanks.  On two hole mouth pieces, I just place the holes side by side but the
mouthpiece is also rounded a bit from side to side so that you just kind of tilt
the flute a little and it is then primarily the melody side that is accessible. 
On a triple mouthpiece, I like the melody in the middle, and in that case having
it extend a little further than the other two is nice.

-Jeremy


--- In nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com, "tejasmed" <tejasmed@...> wrote:
>
> Jeremy
>
> Really impressed with the craftsmanship on your flutes.
>
> Have not had a chance to build a drone, but I really like the concept of the
over under drone.  Just a bit curious as to how you constructed the mouth piece
for comfortable playing.
>
> I might ask this question to the rest of the forum.
> When you make a two hole mouth piece, I found that when the holes are side by
side at the same level, when using the playing side only, it is sometimes
difficult to seal off the one side.
> I have noticed that some people make the drone side as slightly set back a
bit.   Comments on your techniques?
>
> Regards,
>
> Tejas
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Im not sure if it would matter mutch but I thought I should mention that the
barrel bedding tools are spaced with a flexible disc,so the washers actually can
pivot on the shaft some.I thought about making one like theirs but with a longer
sction of discs thinking it may cut faster?If you find the right formula I'm
curious to find out.
   Good luck
Bob

--- In nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com, "Charlie" <chaptor@...> wrote:
>
> Hey thanks Bob!
>
> I never thought about such a tool, but the picture on the gun working site was
good and I think I could approximate it myself by just stacking up some of my
burnished washers!  I do everything on the cheap... and probably "spend" a lot
more considering the time I spend putzing around on things!  It is all part of
the fun for me.  It actually reminds me of the stack of blades in some electric
shavers.  I have used old saver blades like those to shave wood and plastic
parts.  They are made of good steel but are pretty small to do an entire flute! 
Ya'know?  I will let you know how my experiments work out.
>
> --- In nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com, "Bob" <enchantedair@> wrote:
> >
> > Hey Charlie,
> >  You may also want to look at barrel bedding tools for gunsmiths.I have a
work in progress of cherry that was a real pain with the chisels because the
grain keeps switcing around.the bedding tools arent fast or easy but the bore is
smooth and straight.I got mine at www.midwayusa.com .I have only made a dozen or
so flutes and some of the more experienced members may have other opinions to
share on the subject but if you can rough the bore out they really clean it up
nice on the hard woods,not so good on soft stuff.
> >  Bob
> >
> > --- In nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Jones" <jonesmr@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > You could make a D shaped reamer that is tapered to do fine tuning.
> > > And don't forget the scraper that puts a small rounded edge on the top
> > > of the finger hole and bevels the inside edge of the holes.
> > >
> > > You are right that they don't work very well on bamboo. Scrapers do
> > > work well on bamboo if you are trying to remove the outer surface
> > > "bark" as it is very stringy.
> > >
> > > Mike Jones
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlie
> > > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:48 PM
> > > To: nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [Native Flute Woodworking] Re: Bent knife
> > >
> > > Wow!  I have not seen the Flexicut tools before!  They look great!  I
> > > love to use scrapers, and their scraper sets look wonderful!
> > >
> > > I have thought a lot about making a scraper to form the bore by using
> > > a 3/4" (or 5/8") hardened steel washer screwed to the end of a dowel.
> > > I have a router, but even with ear plugs I hate the loud tool!  Plus I
> > > love the feel of cutting the wood - ya-know?  For hard woods a Kutzal
> > > burr or a bent knife could remove most of the bulk.
> > >
> > > For rounding the body I want to attach draw-knife-like handles to 1/2
> > > of a large washer and burnish the hole.  The Flexeral scraper set has
> > > a nice tool for this, but a large washer is only a few cents! I also
> > > use a 1/4" "chisel-like" scraper to make the wind-way.
> > >
> > > I had a friend who did lots of woodworking but had to quit because the
> > > dust attacked his lungs.  Even after installing a fancy dust catching
> > > setup he had too much trouble with it.  Scrapings are very easy to
> > > clean up and there is no dust.  Also, you do not need to sand the
> > > surface before you apply a finish.
> > >
> > > I made a small set of tuning "scraper-reamers" from a saber-saw blade
> > > that I broke into 1" sections.  I carefully ground off the teeth so I
> > > did not over heat the steel, then honed all sides and 90 deg edges.  I
> > > then burnish the edges and hammered the blades into little hard wood
> > > blocks.  The shafts end up being about 3/4" long, so I do not ever cut
> > > into the opposite wall of the bore while tuning. If I want to "move a
> > > hole" like during second octave tuning, I only burnish one side so
> > > that I only get one shaving.  The South edge just slides around the
> > > hole.
> > >
> > > I do not have a smooth transition from blade to blade now, so I am
> > > going to make a new set from 2 blades with the 1" pieces staggered
> > > 1/2".  I love the thin scrapings I get with these!  I am afraid that
> > > with some wood they might tear the wood rather than forming the
> > > shavings.  They tend to catch and tear bamboo, so I will burn my next
> > > bamboo project!  (Made a cool nose flute from a 1" bore node section!)
> > > Has anyone else tried scraper-reamers?
> > >
> > > Thanks so much for the open sharing on this group!  Just the one
> > > recent thread about finishes was worth years of experimentation!
> > >
> > > Charlie
> > >
> > > btw... The WoodWhisperer pod casts has a series on using and
> > > sharpening/burnishing scrapers:
> > > http://odeo.com/episodes/22211802-Episode-14-Barely-Scraping-By
> > >
> > > --- In nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com, "tejasmed"
> > > <tejasmed@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I will stick with the Flexicut and the Kutzall.  But, Mike and I
> > > stopped by Woodcrafters this afternoon and drooled over one of those
> > > small wood carving sets of three little knife handles from Flexicut.
> > > > At the big Nature Fest today in Houston, where our circle played for
> > > the crowd, Mike spent a bunch of time under a tree using a Flexicut
> > > gouge and carved out the bore on two good sized flutes.  We both
> > > showed off our flutes and explained construction and did a bunch of PR
> > > for the flute circle.
> > > >
> > > > Tejas
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> >
>

Charlie:

good points on breath and tuning.

I used one of those guitar tuners until Mike J convinced me to use the Sak Tuner
on the computer.  When you blow, the arrow is either in the blue, or positive or
negative to the note.
You are right...though...sometimes you have to blow harder to make the note go
into the blue zone.  If I see that, then it tells me that something in the
construction on the flute is wrong and needs adjusting.  That note should be
dead on, or a little less or above when blowing harder.
I have learned to like the program....it helps keep you honest and prevents
sloppy tuning and craftsmanship.

Tejas

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Per my drone mouthpieces, I have the playing barrel stick out a little
further...I liked playing that better than having it a little shorter, though
some makers do build that way.  I also make over and under drones and while I
have zero trouble playing a vertically arranged mouthpiece, some customers did,
so I now create an endcap in which I drill airways that convert to side by side
playing...takes some careful measurement and eyeballing, but done easily enough.

bob




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I build a lot of PVC flutes and you would expect them to be "the same every
time" especially with the jigs I use... but it just is not so, as others have
said.  It is amazing how big a difference a tiny change can make - like the
butter fly effect when you think of fractals and chaos theory.

There have been several discussions on this group over the years about how to
blow during tuning.  Some time ago a member built an air blower so that every
hole was tuned with the same air flow, but several experienced builders piped up
and said they intentionally blow harder on the higheer notes because that is
what one does when playing.  That is why a lot of us like to use the flutini
tool that shows the instrument tuning as you play it.  You can get it from the
file section, or just Google it.

I try to play with even breath pressure as I play and tune, but it is certainly
different on different flutes.  I do not worry too much about room temperature
variation because I think the flute needs to be at breath temp to really tune it
for playing.  Even if you tune it a 72 deg, but do not play it except for just
an occasional toot, it will not be at playing temperature... see?  So, as long I
am in a comfortable room temperature I make sure to play quite a bit while fine
tuning (after the rough hole placement is done of course).  I just live with the
out of tune notes during this process... it gets better as you go!  Very
exciting process actually.

Charlie

--- In nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com, Larry Evans <larry@...> wrote:
>
> Brian,
> Make sure you tuned at 72 degrees and then when you check your tuning latter
> make sure it is still 72. Any change of temperature will change the tuning.
> Larry Evans
>
> Bryan Towersbtowers@.../15/09 5:03 PM
> >
> > That is the kind of answer I was hoping for I roughly tune flute close {flat
}
> > before treating them with "TUNG OIL" after it dry's for some reason the
holes
> > sharpen up a bit .I then fine tune them.
> > I have had occurrences where after fine tuning I let the unit sit for a
while
> > and its not in tune any more .
> >
> > Confused ?
> >
> > Bryan
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Jeremy

Really impressed with the craftsmanship on your flutes.

Have not had a chance to build a drone, but I really like the concept of the
over under drone.  Just a bit curious as to how you constructed the mouth piece
for comfortable playing.

I might ask this question to the rest of the forum.
When you make a two hole mouth piece, I found that when the holes are side by
side at the same level, when using the playing side only, it is sometimes
difficult to seal off the one side.
I have noticed that some people make the drone side as slightly set back a bit.
Comments on your techniques?

Regards,

Tejas

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey thanks Bob!

I never thought about such a tool, but the picture on the gun working site was
good and I think I could approximate it myself by just stacking up some of my
burnished washers!  I do everything on the cheap... and probably "spend" a lot
more considering the time I spend putzing around on things!  It is all part of
the fun for me.  It actually reminds me of the stack of blades in some electric
shavers.  I have used old saver blades like those to shave wood and plastic
parts.  They are made of good steel but are pretty small to do an entire flute! 
Ya'know?  I will let you know how my experiments work out.

--- In nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com, "Bob" <enchantedair@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Charlie,
>  You may also want to look at barrel bedding tools for gunsmiths.I have a work
in progress of cherry that was a real pain with the chisels because the grain
keeps switcing around.the bedding tools arent fast or easy but the bore is
smooth and straight.I got mine at www.midwayusa.com .I have only made a dozen or
so flutes and some of the more experienced members may have other opinions to
share on the subject but if you can rough the bore out they really clean it up
nice on the hard woods,not so good on soft stuff.
>  Bob
>
> --- In nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Jones" <jonesmr@> wrote:
> >
> > You could make a D shaped reamer that is tapered to do fine tuning.
> > And don't forget the scraper that puts a small rounded edge on the top
> > of the finger hole and bevels the inside edge of the holes.
> >
> > You are right that they don't work very well on bamboo. Scrapers do
> > work well on bamboo if you are trying to remove the outer surface
> > "bark" as it is very stringy.
> >
> > Mike Jones
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlie
> > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:48 PM
> > To: nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Native Flute Woodworking] Re: Bent knife
> >
> > Wow!  I have not seen the Flexicut tools before!  They look great!  I
> > love to use scrapers, and their scraper sets look wonderful!
> >
> > I have thought a lot about making a scraper to form the bore by using
> > a 3/4" (or 5/8") hardened steel washer screwed to the end of a dowel.
> > I have a router, but even with ear plugs I hate the loud tool!  Plus I
> > love the feel of cutting the wood - ya-know?  For hard woods a Kutzal
> > burr or a bent knife could remove most of the bulk.
> >
> > For rounding the body I want to attach draw-knife-like handles to 1/2
> > of a large washer and burnish the hole.  The Flexeral scraper set has
> > a nice tool for this, but a large washer is only a few cents! I also
> > use a 1/4" "chisel-like" scraper to make the wind-way.
> >
> > I had a friend who did lots of woodworking but had to quit because the
> > dust attacked his lungs.  Even after installing a fancy dust catching
> > setup he had too much trouble with it.  Scrapings are very easy to
> > clean up and there is no dust.  Also, you do not need to sand the
> > surface before you apply a finish.
> >
> > I made a small set of tuning "scraper-reamers" from a saber-saw blade
> > that I broke into 1" sections.  I carefully ground off the teeth so I
> > did not over heat the steel, then honed all sides and 90 deg edges.  I
> > then burnish the edges and hammered the blades into little hard wood
> > blocks.  The shafts end up being about 3/4" long, so I do not ever cut
> > into the opposite wall of the bore while tuning. If I want to "move a
> > hole" like during second octave tuning, I only burnish one side so
> > that I only get one shaving.  The South edge just slides around the
> > hole.
> >
> > I do not have a smooth transition from blade to blade now, so I am
> > going to make a new set from 2 blades with the 1" pieces staggered
> > 1/2".  I love the thin scrapings I get with these!  I am afraid that
> > with some wood they might tear the wood rather than forming the
> > shavings.  They tend to catch and tear bamboo, so I will burn my next
> > bamboo project!  (Made a cool nose flute from a 1" bore node section!)
> > Has anyone else tried scraper-reamers?
> >
> > Thanks so much for the open sharing on this group!  Just the one
> > recent thread about finishes was worth years of experimentation!
> >
> > Charlie
> >
> > btw... The WoodWhisperer pod casts has a series on using and
> > sharpening/burnishing scrapers:
> > http://odeo.com/episodes/22211802-Episode-14-Barely-Scraping-By
> >
> > --- In nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com, "tejasmed"
> > <tejasmed@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I will stick with the Flexicut and the Kutzall.  But, Mike and I
> > stopped by Woodcrafters this afternoon and drooled over one of those
> > small wood carving sets of three little knife handles from Flexicut.
> > > At the big Nature Fest today in Houston, where our circle played for
> > the crowd, Mike spent a bunch of time under a tree using a Flexicut
> > gouge and carved out the bore on two good sized flutes.  We both
> > showed off our flutes and explained construction and did a bunch of PR
> > for the flute circle.
> > >
> > > Tejas
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
>

Mike,

Thanks for the file reference. Very interesting. I like the idea that the shape
of the backset should not be much of a factor. I route the bore so that can save
the effort of removing the radius.

In line with the impedance approach here's some interesting food for thought, I
think.  I ordered a bansuri from the internet to get some details on how they're
made.  It has very little backset but the interesting part is that the plug is
made of some sort of foam.  It reminds me of the material used for foam ear
plugs.  So, my guess is that this material would minimize the activity of the
backset volume in higher frequencies.  Just as foam ear plugs attenuate high
frequencies, so I would think this plug would also attentuate any high frequency
effects of the backset.

So, I did a little experiment with the bansuri and found that the upper octaves
for all the notes were only about 5-15 cents flat even for the top D5/D6 notes.
It was even fairly consistent from one note to the next. Now, granted my
embouchure is not the greatest, but I checked it several times.


Steve Petermann





--- In nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com, "moosewinds_mike"
<moosewinds_mike@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> I like the way you think...
>
> There are different ways to think about the various parts of the flute.  The
different "models" that we come up with help to identify trends in the effect a
variable has on the outcome.  One of the ways to think of the sound vibrations
in the flute are how the phase of the waves relate to the phase of other
periodic things going on - like how the timing of the pulses of air from the jet
relate to the timing of the vibrating air column in the bore.
>
> Your idea of phase difference is a good one.  I'd like to add that the pulses
you are observing are not discrete pulses that are "on" and "off," but they
build fairly smoothly from zero to the maximum, then fall off again.  In other
words, they are continuously building and falling off, which means that the
reflections are not usually short pulses - they are more like waves that are
spread out.
>
> That being said, the reflections bouncing off the back wall will interfere
with the main oscillation in the bore, and cause some distortion in the wave,
which will put things out of balance.  In order to get back into balance, the
frequency of the overall combined oscillations will adjust until the different
oscillations find a happy balance.  The adjustment due to the backset will
result in a shift in the frequency.
>
> The model I tend to favor is the acoustic impedance circuit.  In that model,
the backset acts like a "compliance" that absorbs some of the pressure
fluctuations occurring at the sound hole.  In an electrical circuit, the
analogous thing is a capacitor.  If a capacitor is placed in a resonant circuit,
the resonant frequency will change because of the phase difference it induces
between the voltage and current.  In acoustics, the pressure wave is like a
voltage, and the movement of the air is like the current, so the acoustic
compliance of the backset will have a similar effect.
>
> Some of the details of this theory are posted in the "moosewinds_mike files"
folder in the files section.  The file is "backset theory."
>
> Mike
>
> --- In nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <sgpetermann@> wrote:
> >
> > After looking at the two Mikes' chart on backset I got to wondering about
acoustic effects of backset.  I have a theory I would like to float.  In looking
at the video of fipple activity it seems that the compression/decompression
pulses are concentrated slightly south of the cutting edge.  If this is so then
there will always be a some backset even if it is only due to the length of the
TSH.
> >
> > Since the pulses radiate in all directions there will be
compression/decompression pulses going both down and up the bore.  When the
pulse hits the north wall of the bore it will bounce back toward the south end. 
However, since the original pulse going south will be slightly ahead of it, the
bounced wave form will be somewhat out of phase with the original south-going
one.  The amount of backset will determine how much out of phase it will be. 
For low frequencies (long wave length) the out of phase bounced pulse would more
than likely just smoothly reinforce the backend of the original southbound pulse
and make the aggregate wave length longer, flattening the note. The more backset
there is, the more this would seem to flatting the note.  However, for higher
wave lengths (especially an upper octave) the results could be less consistent. 
This would be because the phase shift would be a higher proportion of the wave
length and might result in a more marked wave form distortion.
> >
> > So if any of this makes sense then for more consistent results across
different scales and flute sizes, minimizing the backset would seem to be the
best approach.
> >
>

Contact Arkoil.com. The citrus oil will evaporate. For me, as a maker,
that product is not good because I have citrus allergy and until it is
fully cured, it would drive be bonkers. Otherwise I think it is a
pretty good product.

Mike Jones

-----Original Message-----
From: nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bryan
Towers
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 5:00 PM
To: nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Native Flute Woodworking] flute finishes

Been doing more research and came across Tung oil mix with citrus
solvent .The documentation I have been reading says both are non
toxic.{ unless you have a nut or citrus allergys }

Not sure where to get any without mixing both products together
yourself.


Bryan

Hey Bryan,
  I have been using it for the last 5­6 years and it is a fantastic finish.
I just emailed Ron lodge who is the main distributor for ark oil. As soon as
I get an update on cost and such I will let you know. I got three gallons a
couple of years ago so I¹m not sure what prices are at the moment.
Stay tuned,
Larry

Bryan Towersbtowers@.../21/09 4:59 PM
>
>
> Been doing more research and came across Tung oil mix with citrus solvent .The
> documentation I have been reading says both are non toxic.{ unless you have a
> nut or citrus allergys }
>
> Not sure where to get any without mixing both products together yourself.
>
> Bryan



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jeremy nice site good design and smooth flow, My son started a site for me but I
am just too busy to finish it, and update all the time.
Good Luck
Aquene Kah Nahonushagk Netop
Peace and Farewell    my friend
Denis SearchingWolf


> Hey all,
>
> I just finally got around to creating a website for my flutes, and thought I'd
share.  It's at http://www.littleravenflutes.com
>
> It's pretty bare bones right now.  I will likely be including a resources
section for builders and players in time.
>
> Mitakuye Oyasin,
>
> Jeremy
>

Hi Steve,

I like the way you think...

There are different ways to think about the various parts of the flute.  The
different "models" that we come up with help to identify trends in the effect a
variable has on the outcome.  One of the ways to think of the sound vibrations
in the flute are how the phase of the waves relate to the phase of other
periodic things going on - like how the timing of the pulses of air from the jet
relate to the timing of the vibrating air column in the bore.

Your idea of phase difference is a good one.  I'd like to add that the pulses
you are observing are not discrete pulses that are "on" and "off," but they
build fairly smoothly from zero to the maximum, then fall off again.  In other
words, they are continuously building and falling off, which means that the
reflections are not usually short pulses - they are more like waves that are
spread out.

That being said, the reflections bouncing off the back wall will interfere with
the main oscillation in the bore, and cause some distortion in the wave, which
will put things out of balance.  In order to get back into balance, the
frequency of the overall combined oscillations will adjust until the different
oscillations find a happy balance.  The adjustment due to the backset will
result in a shift in the frequency.

The model I tend to favor is the acoustic impedance circuit.  In that model, the
backset acts like a "compliance" that absorbs some of the pressure fluctuations
occurring at the sound hole.  In an electrical circuit, the analogous thing is a
capacitor.  If a capacitor is placed in a resonant circuit, the resonant
frequency will change because of the phase difference it induces between the
voltage and current.  In acoustics, the pressure wave is like a voltage, and the
movement of the air is like the current, so the acoustic compliance of the
backset will have a similar effect.

Some of the details of this theory are posted in the "moosewinds_mike files"
folder in the files section.  The file is "backset theory."

Mike

--- In nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <sgpetermann@...> wrote:
>
> After looking at the two Mikes' chart on backset I got to wondering about
acoustic effects of backset.  I have a theory I would like to float.  In looking
at the video of fipple activity it seems that the compression/decompression
pulses are concentrated slightly south of the cutting edge.  If this is so then
there will always be a some backset even if it is only due to the length of the
TSH.
>
> Since the pulses radiate in all directions there will be
compression/decompression pulses going both down and up the bore.  When the
pulse hits the north wall of the bore it will bounce back toward the south end. 
However, since the original pulse going south will be slightly ahead of it, the
bounced wave form will be somewhat out of phase with the original south-going
one.  The amount of backset will determine how much out of phase it will be. 
For low frequencies (long wave length) the out of phase bounced pulse would more
than likely just smoothly reinforce the backend of the original southbound pulse
and make the aggregate wave length longer, flattening the note. The more backset
there is, the more this would seem to flatting the note.  However, for higher
wave lengths (especially an upper octave) the results could be less consistent. 
This would be because the phase shift would be a higher proportion of the wave
length and might result in a more marked wave form distortion.
>
> So if any of this makes sense then for more consistent results across
different scales and flute sizes, minimizing the backset would seem to be the
best approach.
>

Hey all,

I just finally got around to creating a website for my flutes, and thought I'd
share.  It's at http://www.littleravenflutes.com

It's pretty bare bones right now.  I will likely be including a resources
section for builders and players in time.

Mitakuye Oyasin,

Jeremy

Dock I am glad that she approves, because I remember when I gave you the hawk
flute at Echoes, I saw her the next morning and she said you played it in the
bathroom all night and kept her awake (grin).

For those interested in seeing some of the pictures from the event they are
already posted on the Native Rhythms website, great work crew.

--- In nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com, dock green
<dockgreensilverhawk@...> wrote:
>
> What a wonderful weekend. Enjoyed spending time with you. Thank you so much
for the incredible flute, it has brought me a new new song. My wife loves it.
>
> Dock
>
> --- On Thu, 11/19/09, flsketcher <flsketcher@...> wrote:
>
> From: flsketcher <flsketcher@...>
> Subject: [Native Flute Woodworking] Native Rythms.
> To: nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 10:04 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>       How do you start about such a wonderful event.  First of all a HUGE
THANK YOU to John Ellis, Mike Knight and your wonderful crew especially at the
auction tent, for such a well planned and fantastic event.  You could not have
asked for better weather, food, setting or friends than what was at this event. 
I hope that you were able to raise enough seed money for next year, because I
have already set it on the calendar. If any of you can make it next year, it is
worth the drive, the tolls just make it a little tough, right Dennis.  The
classes were great as well as the rooms that they were held in, and the hotel
was fantastic.  Next year I will contribute more to the auction table if wanted.
>
>
>
> Dennis and Kappy, it looks like you two got home safe and sound, you both are
so fantastic to hang around with.  Dennis I was blown away by your new "inline
drone", how awesome those flutes are in sound and design.  I will be sending
Kappy her present soon, and her art work is beyond belief.  Thank you for the
gift, I am looking at it right now and it is truely beautiful.
>
>
>
> Leonard, you old dog, you were playing with that hooey stick so much you
forgot to get your wood from me.  Email me to let me know if you and Ray are
going to see each other after Thanksgiving and I will give it to him to pass
along.  Thanks for the comments on the flute, mental notes were taken Brother,
trust me.
>
>
>
> Dock, what a special person you are, and you humble me even more each time we
meet.  Thanks on the input on the flute entry, and I hope that the new flute
brings you a new song.  Thank you for your spirit and what you bring to an event
like this with your wisdom, flute playing and morning prayer service.  I hope
that old Utah keeps that table my friend, it was a great spot to hang out at.
>
>
>
> These events are great learning places for flute makers and players, with the
workshops and the knowledge that is shared so freely by great flute makers like
Leonard, Dennis and Ray Woods.  It is almost a must attend event if you want to
see and touch the new cutting edge of flute making and playing.
>
>
>
> Joey
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Been doing more research and came across Tung oil mix with citrus solvent .The
documentation I have been reading says both are non toxic.{ unless you have a
nut or citrus allergys }

Not sure where to get any without mixing both products together yourself.


Bryan

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Bryan Towers
   To: nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 10:10 PM
   Subject: Re: [Native Flute Woodworking] flute finishes



   Compare it to this salad bowl finish MSDS sheet .

   http://www.behlen.co.uk/safety/B603-00014.pdf

   Bryan

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Mike Jones
   To: nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 9:22 PM
   Subject: RE: [Native Flute Woodworking] flute finishes

   The MSDS looks pretty mild. What is doesn't say anything about is the
   polymer that is left after the finish is dried/cured. That is what the
   players will be putting in or near their mouth and skin. It also does
   not say anything about being considered food safe. I haven't read too
   many MSDS so I am not sure that that last tidbit would ever be found
   in an MSDS. All in all the product looks about as user friendly as any
   finish and much better than most. Again, I just don't see anything
   about the cured product's affects or issues.

   It is interesting that the gloss is better for soaking into the wood.
   You could always use fine steel wool to take off the sheen or just
   make the last coat the satin or semi gloss. You would have to look at
   those MSDS since they contain some other chemicals to retard the
   gloss.

   Mike Jones

   -----Original Message-----
   From: nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com
   [mailto:nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bryan
   Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 6:01 PM
   To: nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: [Native Flute Woodworking] flute finishes

   Ok
   Been doing Ebay research and shopping and found this product,
   Varathane interior waterborne {Gloss}
   Here is the MSDS sheet

   http://docushare.dsbn.edu.on.ca:8080/dsweb/Get/Document-9654/Varathane
   +Interior+Waterbased+Gloss+200031.pdf

   It is recommended to use gloss only for wood some of the semi gloss
   and satins have additives in them that prevent the product from
   penetrating into wood.
   I purchased pint dipped a couple of small wood items {3 coats}. Very
   little smell and quick drying hard shiny finish,

   There are no flammable or skull and cross bone warnings on the can,
   Thoughts ? anyone ?

   Bryan

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I love the smell of polymers in the morning!

--- In nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Jones" <jonesmr@...> wrote:
>
> The MSDS looks pretty mild. What is doesn't say anything about is the
> polymer that is left after the finish is dried/cured. That is what the
> players will be putting in or near their mouth and skin. It also does
> not say anything about being considered food safe. I haven't read too
> many MSDS so I am not sure that that last tidbit would ever be found
> in an MSDS. All in all the product looks about as user friendly as any
> finish and much better than most. Again, I just don't see anything
> about the cured product's affects or issues.
>
> It is interesting that the gloss is better for soaking into the wood.
> You could always use fine steel wool to take off the sheen or just
> make the last coat the satin or semi gloss. You would have to look at
> those MSDS since they contain some other chemicals to retard the
> gloss.
>
> Mike Jones
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bryan
> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 6:01 PM
> To: nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Native Flute Woodworking] flute finishes
>
> Ok
> Been doing Ebay research and shopping and found this product,
> Varathane  interior waterborne {Gloss}
> Here is the MSDS sheet
>
>
> http://docushare.dsbn.edu.on.ca:8080/dsweb/Get/Document-9654/Varathane
> +Interior+Waterbased+Gloss+200031.pdf
>
> It is recommended to use gloss only for wood some of the semi gloss
> and satins have additives in them that prevent the product from
> penetrating into  wood.
> I purchased pint dipped a couple of small wood items {3 coats}. Very
> little smell and quick drying hard shiny finish,
>
> There are no flammable or skull and cross bone warnings on the can,
> Thoughts ? anyone ?
>
> Bryan
>

Compare it to this salad bowl finish MSDS sheet .

http://www.behlen.co.uk/safety/B603-00014.pdf

Bryan

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Mike Jones
   To: nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 9:22 PM
   Subject: RE: [Native Flute Woodworking] flute finishes



   The MSDS looks pretty mild. What is doesn't say anything about is the
   polymer that is left after the finish is dried/cured. That is what the
   players will be putting in or near their mouth and skin. It also does
   not say anything about being considered food safe. I haven't read too
   many MSDS so I am not sure that that last tidbit would ever be found
   in an MSDS. All in all the product looks about as user friendly as any
   finish and much better than most. Again, I just don't see anything
   about the cured product's affects or issues.

   It is interesting that the gloss is better for soaking into the wood.
   You could always use fine steel wool to take off the sheen or just
   make the last coat the satin or semi gloss. You would have to look at
   those MSDS since they contain some other chemicals to retard the
   gloss.

   Mike Jones

   -----Original Message-----
   From: nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com
   [mailto:nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bryan
   Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 6:01 PM
   To: nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: [Native Flute Woodworking] flute finishes

   Ok
   Been doing Ebay research and shopping and found this product,
   Varathane interior waterborne {Gloss}
   Here is the MSDS sheet

   http://docushare.dsbn.edu.on.ca:8080/dsweb/Get/Document-9654/Varathane
   +Interior+Waterbased+Gloss+200031.pdf

   It is recommended to use gloss only for wood some of the semi gloss
   and satins have additives in them that prevent the product from
   penetrating into wood.
   I purchased pint dipped a couple of small wood items {3 coats}. Very
   little smell and quick drying hard shiny finish,

   There are no flammable or skull and cross bone warnings on the can,
   Thoughts ? anyone ?

   Bryan





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The MSDS looks pretty mild. What is doesn't say anything about is the
polymer that is left after the finish is dried/cured. That is what the
players will be putting in or near their mouth and skin. It also does
not say anything about being considered food safe. I haven't read too
many MSDS so I am not sure that that last tidbit would ever be found
in an MSDS. All in all the product looks about as user friendly as any
finish and much better than most. Again, I just don't see anything
about the cured product's affects or issues.

It is interesting that the gloss is better for soaking into the wood.
You could always use fine steel wool to take off the sheen or just
make the last coat the satin or semi gloss. You would have to look at
those MSDS since they contain some other chemicals to retard the
gloss.

Mike Jones

-----Original Message-----
From: nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bryan
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 6:01 PM
To: nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Native Flute Woodworking] flute finishes

Ok
Been doing Ebay research and shopping and found this product,
Varathane  interior waterborne {Gloss}
Here is the MSDS sheet


http://docushare.dsbn.edu.on.ca:8080/dsweb/Get/Document-9654/Varathane
+Interior+Waterbased+Gloss+200031.pdf

It is recommended to use gloss only for wood some of the semi gloss
and satins have additives in them that prevent the product from
penetrating into  wood.
I purchased pint dipped a couple of small wood items {3 coats}. Very
little smell and quick drying hard shiny finish,

There are no flammable or skull and cross bone warnings on the can,
Thoughts ? anyone ?

Bryan

What a wonderful weekend. Enjoyed spending time with you. Thank you so much for
the incredible flute, it has brought me a new new song. My wife loves it.

Dock

--- On Thu, 11/19/09, flsketcher <flsketcher@...> wrote:

From: flsketcher <flsketcher@...>
Subject: [Native Flute Woodworking] Native Rythms.
To: nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 10:04 PM







 









       How do you start about such a wonderful event.  First of all a HUGE THANK
YOU to John Ellis, Mike Knight and your wonderful crew especially at the auction
tent, for such a well planned and fantastic event.  You could not have asked for
better weather, food, setting or friends than what was at this event.  I hope
that you were able to raise enough seed money for next year, because I have
already set it on the calendar. If any of you can make it next year, it is worth
the drive, the tolls just make it a little tough, right Dennis.  The classes
were great as well as the rooms that they were held in, and the hotel was
fantastic.  Next year I will contribute more to the auction table if wanted.



Dennis and Kappy, it looks like you two got home safe and sound, you both are so
fantastic to hang around with.  Dennis I was blown away by your new "inline
drone", how awesome those flutes are in sound and design.  I will be sending
Kappy her present soon, and her art work is beyond belief.  Thank you for the
gift, I am looking at it right now and it is truely beautiful.



Leonard, you old dog, you were playing with that hooey stick so much you forgot
to get your wood from me.  Email me to let me know if you and Ray are going to
see each other after Thanksgiving and I will give it to him to pass along. 
Thanks for the comments on the flute, mental notes were taken Brother, trust me.



Dock, what a special person you are, and you humble me even more each time we
meet.  Thanks on the input on the flute entry, and I hope that the new flute
brings you a new song.  Thank you for your spirit and what you bring to an event
like this with your wisdom, flute playing and morning prayer service.  I hope
that old Utah keeps that table my friend, it was a great spot to hang out at.



These events are great learning places for flute makers and players, with the
workshops and the knowledge that is shared so freely by great flute makers like
Leonard, Dennis and Ray Woods.  It is almost a must attend event if you want to
see and touch the new cutting edge of flute making and playing.



Joey






















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- On Thu, 11/19/09, flsketcher <flsketcher@...> wrote:

From: flsketcher <flsketcher@...>
Subject: [Native Flute Woodworking] Native Rythms.
To: nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 10:04 PM







 









       How do you start about such a wonderful event.  First of all a HUGE THANK
YOU to John Ellis, Mike Knight and your wonderful crew especially at the auction
tent, for such a well planned and fantastic event.  You could not have asked for
better weather, food, setting or friends than what was at this event.  I hope
that you were able to raise enough seed money for next year, because I have
already set it on the calendar. If any of you can make it next year, it is worth
the drive, the tolls just make it a little tough, right Dennis.  The classes
were great as well as the rooms that they were held in, and the hotel was
fantastic.  Next year I will contribute more to the auction table if wanted.



Dennis and Kappy, it looks like you two got home safe and sound, you both are so
fantastic to hang around with.  Dennis I was blown away by your new "inline
drone", how awesome those flutes are in sound and design.  I will be sending
Kappy her present soon, and her art work is beyond belief.  Thank you for the
gift, I am looking at it right now and it is truely beautiful.



Leonard, you old dog, you were playing with that hooey stick so much you forgot
to get your wood from me.  Email me to let me know if you and Ray are going to
see each other after Thanksgiving and I will give it to him to pass along. 
Thanks for the comments on the flute, mental notes were taken Brother, trust me.



Dock, what a special person you are, and you humble me even more each time we
meet.  Thanks on the input on the flute entry, and I hope that the new flute
brings you a new song.  Thank you for your spirit and what you bring to an event
like this with your wisdom, flute playing and morning prayer service.  I hope
that old Utah keeps that table my friend, it was a great spot to hang out at.



These events are great learning places for flute makers and players, with the
workshops and the knowledge that is shared so freely by great flute makers like
Leonard, Dennis and Ray Woods.  It is almost a must attend event if you want to
see and touch the new cutting edge of flute making and playing.



Joey






















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ok
Been doing Ebay research and shopping and found this product,
Varathane  interior waterborne {Gloss}
Here is the MSDS sheet


http://docushare.dsbn.edu.on.ca:8080/dsweb/Get/Document-9654/Varathane+Interior+\
Waterbased+Gloss+200031.pdf

It is recommended to use gloss only for wood some of the semi gloss and satins
have additives in them that prevent the product from penetrating into  wood.
I purchased pint dipped a couple of small wood items {3 coats}. Very little
smell and quick drying hard shiny finish,

There are no flammable or skull and cross bone warnings on the can,
Thoughts ? anyone ?

Bryan

That link didn't work quite right -- let's try again...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nativeflutewoodworking/photos/album/291996382/pic/\
972133615/view



--- In nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy"
<little_raven_flutes@...> wrote:
>
> I haven't made a whole flute out of it yet, though I will be fairly soon.  I
have used it as an accent wood.  Here's a link to a picture of one of my
solid-bored flutes made from poplar, mahogany, and black palm. 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nativeflutewoodworking/photos/album/291996382/pic/\
972133615/view.  Black palm is a rather difficult wood to work due to its very
stringy grain.  The dark fibers are incredibly hard, while the surrounding
substrate of the wood is almost chalky.  It is easy to tear up when carving.  I
don't know how it would be to turn on a lathe -- I suspect it might be
difficult.  It bores OK, but wears on the tools due to its hardness.  On the
flute pictured in the link, the interior was bored by machine and the exterior
shaped by hand with a chisel.
>
> I've got a bunch of black and red palm sticks that I thought I would combine
on some solid bored flutes (black palm with red palm accents and vice versa). 
Note that black and red palm are the same species, just different wood
coloration.  I also have a piece of black palm that I sliced in half awhile ago
and am thinking of making an entirely black palm split bore flute from that
before too long.
>
> -Jeremy
>