Tom & Maria T wrote:
>
> Hi, Diane,
> Got January 1999 "Mythprint" monthly bulletin yesterday.  Pg. 4 states
> all society members are invited to discuss Mythopoeic Award
> nominations.   Do you have a favorite 1998 work, fiction or
> non-fiction?  I guess that's where we're encouraged to begin.  Am not
> current with new Sf and fantasy books.  I took the new Legends book
> out of our village library.  Couldn't get interested as several of
> these stories were continuations of sagas I hadn't read, and since it
> was a new book, only had a short time.  My interest is in stories that
> begin with the real world, and take off from there, such as, Lewis's
> Trilogy.  Is there anything good in 1998 that blends reality and
> fantasy?
> Maria Tatham, Weston, OH, USA
>
Hello from a fellow Ohioan!  Thought I'd drop you a line on line and ask
where you are in relation to Cincinnati.  Been trying to put together a
Mythie group in the local area.  As for your question, I can't really
think of anything that begins and ends in the real world.  I'd like to
nominate *Arm of the Stone* for the MFA.  Have you read it?  ---djb.

Diane Joy Baker wrote:

  I'd like to
nominate *Arm of the Stone* for the MFA.  Have you read it?  ---djb.

Diane,

Can you provide more info? Author, brief description, adult or children's???

Thanks!

Ellie

********************************************************************************
	 Eleanor M. Farrell
	 P.O. Box 320486
	 San Francisco, CA 94132-0486
	 E-mail: emfarrell@...

Editor, Mythprint (Mythopoeic Society newsletter)
Mythopoeic Society web site: http://www.mythsoc.org
********************************************************************************

Hi I just joined yesterday.............I noticed someone asked about an author
that blends reality with SF, Have you ever hear of Charles DeLint?  He is an
excellent writer, and many of his stories are about the little things that
cannot be explained in everyday life, and sometimes ends up in other
realties..........Just take a peak at any of his book covers.  He is
definitely worth picking up...My Fav. is Memory & Dream.............AIlIorian

Allorian..

Charles De Lint is a wonderful Canadian author.  I
agree.. he's amazing :)

Here's my list of nominations for the 1998 Adult MFA that I've already
sent off to David.

History of our World Beyond the Wave -- RE Klein
Song for the Basilisk -- McKillip
Mockingbird -- Sean Stewart
Book of Knights -- Yves Meynard
Night Watch -- Sean Stewart
Darwinia -- Robert Charles Wilson
Smoke and Mirrors -- Neil Gaiman

As I've mentioned here before, I felt it was a thin year for works to
nominate. Looking at my bookshelves, most of the good stuff I bought this
year were (aside from the above) reprints of some of the good ole stuff
(Dunsany, Moorcock, Leiber).

Anyway, I've included two Sean Stewart works on this list. I highly
recommend him to any and all. It's been rightly said of his work that no
two books are the same. I was tempted to include a third on this list
(Cloud's End), but decided against it. Still, Cloud's End is probably the
most appropriate for the list -- Stewart stated that he wrote it as an
attempt to pay homage to Tolkien. Like all his stuff, it is well written
and enjoyable to read.

Anyway, happy reading in '99 to all.

Matthew Winslow mwinslow@...
http://www.firinn.org/~mwinslow/
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading
them." - Joseph Brodsky

Currently reading: Shakespeare: The Invention of the Human by Harold Bloom
Matthew Winslow mwinslow@...
http://www.firinn.org/~mwinslow/
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading
them." - Joseph Brodsky

Currently reading: Shakespeare: The Invention of the Human by Harold Bloom

I wrote an E-mail to Charles DeLint and he answered me back ... he was very
sweet in his reply and I will always cherish that..... I love his work and I
respect and admire him as a kind human being.......Shay

I like De Lint, but find that I can only read one of his books, then
move on to another writer.  I actually forgot about him, and shouldn't
have, since *Trader* was on the MFA list last year.  *Memory and Dream*
was awfully good.

AIlIorian@... wrote:
>

>
> Hi I just joined yesterday.............I noticed someone asked about an author
> that blends reality with SF, Have you ever hear of Charles DeLint?  He is an
> excellent writer, and many of his stories are about the little things that
> cannot be explained in everyday life, and sometimes ends up in other
> realties..........Just take a peak at any of his book covers.  He is
> definitely worth picking up...My Fav. is Memory & Dream.............AIlIorian
>
>

Why, yes.  DeLint has been guest of honor at our conference, Mythcon, and much
discussed in the various discussion groups.  Several of his books have been
nominated (and I think became finalists) for our annual Fantasy Award, and he
has participated in our fiction 'zine, Mythic Circle, both (I believe I recall)
sending us an original story or poem, and commenting on other stories in letters
of comment.  Re: DeLint--the person, apart from the writer--yes, he seems
extremely nice, and was very pleasant and approachable at Mythcon, where he
presented a folk music concert in place of the traditional speech (or am I
misremembering?).

Responding to the message of <9c3ca558.368d1a49@...>
from mythsoc@onelist.com:
>
> From: AIlIorian@...
>
> Hi I just joined yesterday.............I noticed someone asked about an
> author
> that blends reality with SF, Have you ever hear of Charles DeLint?  He is an
> excellent writer, and many of his stories are about the little things that
> cannot be explained in everyday life, and sometimes ends up in other
> realties..........Just take a peak at any of his book covers.  He is
> definitely worth picking up...My Fav. is Memory & Dream.............AIlIorian
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
> to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and
> select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
>
> .


David Lenander, Library Manager I
Bio-Medical Library Access Services              work:  (612)626-3375
Circulation, Core Collections & Reserve Desks    home:  (651)292-8887
Diehl Hall/505 Essex SE                           fax:  (612)626-2454
University of Minnesota
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55455

e-mail:  d-lena@...
web-page: http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m391/d-lena/BirdnBab.html

Just to throw some more variety into the discussion, I'd like to hear opinions
on
Guy Gavriel Kay's latest, "Sailing to Sarantium".  I've just finished Book One,
and
while I'm waiting patiently for Book Two to come out to read, I'm not entirely
into
the book.  It still has its good points, but it seems to me to fall far short of
the
greatness he achieved in the Tapestry, and even in Tiganna, Song for Arbonne and
The
Lions of Al-Rassan.  I thought all the previous books were excellent, and The
Tapestry to be one of the finest pieces of literature I've ever read (so much so
that I'd probably rank it just below Tolkien's work; and if I were less of a
fan,
then at about the same level).

One thing that really bothered me about this new book is the language.  I found
it
to be much more offensive than any of his previous books.  The sexual imagery is
on
about the same level as in the others, but I'm also wondering if it is more
gratuitous (even in his other non-Tapestry books).  I could see the centrality
of
the imagery in the Tapestry, and to various extents in some of the others.  I
suppose I'm wondering if sexuality has become more of a selling strategy, or if
it
is sadly such a dominant part of society that it must be included in the
literature
of the times, or does it truly have some literary value.

But beside that, I found that Kay used so many curse words that the story
suffered
greatly (and I also believe that the same thing, although he used less, also
hurt
his other works).  He seems to spend more time throwing out curse words than
developing the characters.  None of them are as strong as the characters in his
early works.

So, overall, I would say this is an inferior effort for Kay.  Somehow or other,
however, he does hold my interest enough that I still plan on buying the second
book
to finish reading the story.

Other opinions?

Kevin Grant

Responding to the message of <368D4546.182B@...>
from mythsoc@onelist.com:
>
> From: Diane Baker <dianejoy@...>
>
> Tom & Maria T wrote:
[. . . .]
> > Maria Tatham, Weston, OH, USA
> >
> Hello from a fellow Ohioan!  Thought I'd drop you a line on line and ask
> where you are in relation to Cincinnati.  Been trying to put together a
> Mythie group in the local area.  [. . . .]

Yes, there have been (during my tenure as Discussion Groups secretary), people
interested in starting groups in every major city in Ohio, I think.  If only
they all lived in the same one!  Currently, I think we're listing three or so on
my Activity Calendar web-page.  If you don't live close enough to one of the
existing contact people, consider volunteering to be listed, yourself.  Who
knows, I might even be able to dig out a second person from those old files.

David Lenander, Library Manager I
Bio-Medical Library Access Services              work:  (612)626-3375
Circulation, Core Collections & Reserve Desks    home:  (651)292-8887
Diehl Hall/505 Essex SE                           fax:  (612)626-2454
University of Minnesota
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55455

e-mail:  d-lena@...
web-page: http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m391/d-lena/BirdnBab.html

Responding to the message of <l03130306b2b2b96d78fa@[153.37.15.207]>
from mythsoc@onelist.com:
>
> From: Eleanor Farrell <emfarrell@...>
>
> Diane Joy Baker wrote:
>
>  I'd like to
> nominate *Arm of the Stone* for the MFA.  Have you read it?  ---djb.

> Can you provide more info? Author, brief description, adult or children's???

Here's a bit of info:  --ddl
Strauss, Victoria.
|    TITLE: The arm of the stone /
|    PLACE: New York :
|PUBLISHER: Avon Eos,
|     YEAR: 1998
| PUB TYPE: Book
|   FORMAT: 426 p. ; 18 cm.
|     ISBN: 0380797518


David Lenander, Library Manager I
Bio-Medical Library Access Services              work:  (612)626-3375
Circulation, Core Collections & Reserve Desks    home:  (651)292-8887
Diehl Hall/505 Essex SE                           fax:  (612)626-2454
University of Minnesota
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55455

e-mail:  d-lena@...
web-page: http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m391/d-lena/BirdnBab.html

Diane,
Sorry this response is days late.  To answer your question about where
Weston is:  it is a small town, approximately 25 miles s.w. of Toledo.
No, I haven't read "Arm of the Stone", but will put it on my new reading
list, with Charles De Lint.
My reading this year has been classic works:  for example, All Hallows'
Eves, and Williams' book about the Grail (which, curiously, is the only good
book I can never remember the name of).  To be able to talk, I'm going to
have to catch up.
Happy New Year!
Maria Tatham, Weston, OH
-----Original Message-----
From: Diane Baker <dianejoy@...>
To: mythsoc@onelist.com <mythsoc@onelist.com>
Date: Friday, January 01, 1999 1:12 PM
Subject: [mythsoc] Re: ???


>From: Diane Baker <dianejoy@...>
>
>Tom & Maria T wrote:
>>
>> Hi, Diane,
>> Got January 1999 "Mythprint" monthly bulletin yesterday.  Pg. 4 states
>> all society members are invited to discuss Mythopoeic Award
>> nominations.   Do you have a favorite 1998 work, fiction or
>> non-fiction?  I guess that's where we're encouraged to begin.  Am not
>> current with new Sf and fantasy books.  I took the new Legends book
>> out of our village library.  Couldn't get interested as several of
>> these stories were continuations of sagas I hadn't read, and since it
>> was a new book, only had a short time.  My interest is in stories that
>> begin with the real world, and take off from there, such as, Lewis's
>> Trilogy.  Is there anything good in 1998 that blends reality and
>> fantasy?
>> Maria Tatham, Weston, OH, USA
>>
>Hello from a fellow Ohioan!  Thought I'd drop you a line on line and ask
>where you are in relation to Cincinnati.  Been trying to put together a
>Mythie group in the local area.  As for your question, I can't really
>think of anything that begins and ends in the real world.  I'd like to
>nominate *Arm of the Stone* for the MFA.  Have you read it?  ---djb.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
>to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and
>select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org

Ellie:  I think I gave a synopsis of *Arm* in BW 42, but it concerns a
young man preserving a thousand year old story, handed down through his
family in a land where technology is heavily regulated (hand-power) and
magic (mind-power) is preferred.  When his brother commits an
infraction, his entire family is wiped out; he joins the regulators to
bring down the system from within.  This summary does no justice to the
writing, and to the gripping interweaving of his life with that of a
female trainee in the same place.  Later, it becomes a story of
intrigue.  It's really quite good; I veiw it as something Tolkien might
have liked (even if he was ambivalent about technology, he was equally
ambivalent about magic getting out of hand); the world-building is very
interesting.  I think it at least deserves consideration.  ---djb.
> >
> > From: Eleanor Farrell <emfarrell@...>
> >
> > Diane Joy Baker wrote:
> >
> >  I'd like to
> > nominate *Arm of the Stone* for the MFA.  Have you read it?  ---djb.
>
> > Can you provide more info? Author, brief description, adult or children's???
>
> Here's a bit of info:  --ddl
> Strauss, Victoria.
> |    TITLE: The arm of the stone /
> |    PLACE: New York :
> |PUBLISHER: Avon Eos,
> |     YEAR: 1998
> | PUB TYPE: Book
> |   FORMAT: 426 p. ; 18 cm.
> |     ISBN: 0380797518
>
> David Lenander, Library Manager I
> Bio-Medical Library Access Services              work:  (612)626-3375
> Circulation, Core Collections & Reserve Desks    home:  (651)292-8887
> Diehl Hall/505 Essex SE                           fax:  (612)626-2454
> University of Minnesota
> Minneapolis, Minnesota 55455
>
> e-mail:  d-lena@...
> web-page: http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m391/d-lena/BirdnBab.html
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
> to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and
> select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org

Tom & Maria T wrote:
>
> From: "Tom & Maria T" <wttatham@...>
>
> Diane,
> Sorry this response is days late.  To answer your question about where
> Weston is:  it is a small town, approximately 25 miles s.w. of Toledo.
> No, I haven't read "Arm of the Stone", but will put it on my new reading
> list, with Charles De Lint.
> My reading this year has been classic works:  for example, All Hallows'
> Eves, and Williams' book about the Grail (which, curiously, is the only good
> book I can never remember the name of).  To be able to talk, I'm going to
> have to catch up.
> Happy New Year!
> Maria Tatham, Weston, OH
>
Thanks for the geography; with all the Ohioans scattered all over the
state interested in mythic stuff, it's a good thing we have the Net!
Too bad we don't all live closer together.  *Arm* is awfully good.  Hope
you enjoy.  ---djb.

We discussed CW in Butterbur's Woodshed #42.  You might want to get the
issue from Ellie.  ---djb.

I hope I won't be accused of self-promotion here, but the ezine I publish,
Phantastes (which many of you will probably find interesting), includes an
article by Victoria Strauss, author of _The Arm of the Stone_, on the
subject of world building.  I enjoyed the novel very much, and the
article gives some really interesting insight into the writing process.

Best,
Staci

*** 			     ***                               ***
Staci Dumoski 				      unicorn@...
Editor, Phantastes 	 http://www.nocturne.org/phantastes
The Online Journal of Fantasy Criticism

On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Diane Baker wrote:

> From: Diane Baker <dianejoy@...>
>
> Ellie:  I think I gave a synopsis of *Arm* in BW 42, but it concerns a
> young man preserving a thousand year old story, handed down through his
> family in a land where technology is heavily regulated (hand-power) and
> magic (mind-power) is preferred.  When his brother commits an
> infraction, his entire family is wiped out; he joins the regulators to
> bring down the system from within.  This summary does no justice to the
> writing, and to the gripping interweaving of his life with that of a
> female trainee in the same place.  Later, it becomes a story of
> intrigue.  It's really quite good; I veiw it as something Tolkien might
> have liked (even if he was ambivalent about technology, he was equally
> ambivalent about magic getting out of hand); the world-building is very
> interesting.  I think it at least deserves consideration.  ---djb.
> > >
> > > From: Eleanor Farrell <emfarrell@...>
> > >
> > > Diane Joy Baker wrote:
> > >
> > >  I'd like to
> > > nominate *Arm of the Stone* for the MFA.  Have you read it?  ---djb.
> >
> > > Can you provide more info? Author, brief description, adult or
children's???
> >
> > Here's a bit of info:  --ddl
> > Strauss, Victoria.
> > |    TITLE: The arm of the stone /
> > |    PLACE: New York :
> > |PUBLISHER: Avon Eos,
> > |     YEAR: 1998
> > | PUB TYPE: Book
> > |   FORMAT: 426 p. ; 18 cm.
> > |     ISBN: 0380797518
> >
> > David Lenander, Library Manager I
> > Bio-Medical Library Access Services              work:  (612)626-3375
> > Circulation, Core Collections & Reserve Desks    home:  (651)292-8887
> > Diehl Hall/505 Essex SE                           fax:  (612)626-2454
> > University of Minnesota
> > Minneapolis, Minnesota 55455
> >
> > e-mail:  d-lena@...
> > web-page: http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m391/d-lena/BirdnBab.html
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
> > to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and
> > select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
> to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and
> select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
>

> From: Staci Dumoski <unicorn@...>
>
> I hope I won't be accused of self-promotion here, but the ezine I publish,
> Phantastes (which many of you will probably find interesting), includes an
> article by Victoria Strauss, author of _The Arm of the Stone_, on the
> subject of world building.  I enjoyed the novel very much, and the
> article gives some really interesting insight into the writing process.

And I'd like to give Phantastes a thumbs-up. I discovered it about a month
ago and really enjoyed what Staci's got up there. It's definitely worth a
look.

Matthew Winslow mwinslow@...
http://www.firinn.org/~mwinslow/
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading
them." - Joseph Brodsky

Currently reading: Angela's Ashes by Frank McCourt

Staci Dumoski wrote:
>
> From: Staci Dumoski <unicorn@...>
>
> I hope I won't be accused of self-promotion here, but the ezine I publish,
> Phantastes (which many of you will probably find interesting), includes an
> article by Victoria Strauss, author of _The Arm of the Stone_, on the
> subject of world building.  I enjoyed the novel very much, and the
> article gives some really interesting insight into the writing process.
>
> Best,
> Staci
>
> ***                                  ***                               ***
> Staci Dumoski                                         unicorn@...
> Editor, Phantastes                      http://www.nocturne.org/phantastes
> The Online Journal of Fantasy Criticism

I'd like to see that article.  I take it I can get it from your online
address?

On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Diane Baker wrote:

> I'd like to see that article.  I take it I can get it from your online
> address?

Yes, it's available at http://www.nocturne.org/phantastes (along with a
number of other articles on fantasy lit).

Best,
Staci Dumoski

Staci Dumoski wrote:
>
> From: Staci Dumoski <unicorn@...>
>
> I hope I won't be accused of self-promotion here, but the ezine I publish,
> Phantastes (which many of you will probably find interesting), includes an
> article by Victoria Strauss, author of _The Arm of the Stone_, on the
> subject of world building.  I enjoyed the novel very much, and the
> article gives some really interesting insight into the writing process.
>
> Best,
> Staci
>
> ***                                  ***                               ***
> Staci Dumoski                                         unicorn@...
> Editor, Phantastes                      http://www.nocturne.org/phantastes
> The Online Journal of Fantasy Criticism
>
>I'd like to pay you a compliment on your online 'zine.  It's got some great
stuff; esp. enjoyed the Victoria Strauss article, and the books on
world-building---two of which I already own.

Maybe you can help me:  I'm looking for some material on magical rules
and systems.  I don't necessarily want spells or original sources (a la
Dion Fortune) but articles on how to design a good magical system.  Any
pointers?  Have already checked out the *Encyclopedia of Fantasy* by
Clute and Co.  Interesting, but I really want a copy of the whole
encyclopedia, and can't afford it just now!  My library doesn't have a
copy, so can't Xerox or take notes.  Thanks.  ---djb.
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
> to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and
> select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org

On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Diane Baker wrote:
> Maybe you can help me:  I'm looking for some material on magical rules
> and systems.  I don't necessarily want spells or original sources (a la
> Dion Fortune) but articles on how to design a good magical system.  Any
> pointers?  Have already checked out the *Encyclopedia of Fantasy* by
> Clute and Co.  Interesting, but I really want a copy of the whole
> encyclopedia, and can't afford it just now!  My library doesn't have a
> copy, so can't Xerox or take notes.  Thanks.  ---djb.

Diane,
I am not aware of any thing that specifically deals with the creation of
magical systems.  Unfortunately, most of the "How To" books out there for
writers of fantastic fiction are aimed more at SF than fantasy, and I
haven't had the opportunity yet to read any of the ones that are aimed at
fantasists, so I can't tell you if they deal with magic or not.  Once
place you might look is at gaming resources.  They might be more technical
than you are interested in, but they should provide an overview of what
you need to include, and some ideas of where to start.

I should think that you have much more freedom in building a magic system
than you would in building a technological system, simply because the
rules of science do not apply.  I would start with deciding what the
effect I wanted the magic to have within the scope of the story I was
writing (story is always first!) and then build a magic system that will
produce that effect.

This is a really interesting topic, though, and I will continue to do some
research on the subject and see if I can't turn anything up.  I'd also be
willing to consider articles on the subject for publication in upcoming
issues of Phantastes.  Like I said, most of the world-building stuff out
there is for SF.  It's time for fantasists to take charge!

Best,
Staci Dumoski
Phantastes, The Online Journal of Fantasy Criticism
	 http://www.nocturne.org/phantastes
Fantastic Reads, Readers Retreat
	 http://readersretreat.com

Staci Dumoski wrote:
>
> From: Staci Dumoski <unicorn@...>
>
> On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Diane Baker wrote:
> > Maybe you can help me:  I'm looking for some material on magical rules
> > and systems.  I don't necessarily want spells or original sources (a la
> > Dion Fortune) but articles on how to design a good magical system.  Any
> > pointers?  Have already checked out the *Encyclopedia of Fantasy* by
> > Clute and Co.  Interesting, but I really want a copy of the whole
> > encyclopedia, and can't afford it just now!  My library doesn't have a
> > copy, so can't Xerox or take notes.  Thanks.  ---djb.
>
> Diane,
> I am not aware of any thing that specifically deals with the creation of
> magical systems.  Unfortunately, most of the "How To" books out there for
> writers of fantastic fiction are aimed more at SF than fantasy, and I
> haven't had the opportunity yet to read any of the ones that are aimed at
> fantasists, so I can't tell you if they deal with magic or not.  Once
> place you might look is at gaming resources.  They might be more technical
> than you are interested in, but they should provide an overview of what
> you need to include, and some ideas of where to start.
>
> I should think that you have much more freedom in building a magic system
> than you would in building a technological system, simply because the
> rules of science do not apply.  I would start with deciding what the
> effect I wanted the magic to have within the scope of the story I was
> writing (story is always first!) and then build a magic system that will
> produce that effect.
>
> This is a really interesting topic, though, and I will continue to do some
> research on the subject and see if I can't turn anything up.  I'd also be
> willing to consider articles on the subject for publication in upcoming
> issues of Phantastes.  Like I said, most of the world-building stuff out
> there is for SF.  It's time for fantasists to take charge!
>
> Best,
> Staci Dumoski
> Phantastes, The Online Journal of Fantasy Criticism
>         http://www.nocturne.org/phantastes
> Fantastic Reads, Readers Retreat
>         http://readersretreat.com

Since I don't want this to range off topic, I just want to thank you for
your comments, and ask if you have a forum for discussion of such topics
on your site.  You have a great publication going. It may become a
regular bookmark of mine.

On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Diane Baker wrote:

> Since I don't want this to range off topic, I just want to thank you for
> your comments, and ask if you have a forum for discussion of such topics
> on your site.  You have a great publication going. It may become a
> regular bookmark of mine.

Thanks for you compliments.  Unfortunately Phantastes doesn't have any
forums at this time.  I know of a couple of mailing lists where you could
no doubt find lots of people willing to discuss the subject.  The is
fantasy@....  You can find information about joining the list
and the Internet Fantasy Writers Association at http://www.chaosmanor.com.
Also, there is the Dreamsong Fantasy Writers list, which you can join
through Onelist.com.  You'll find lots of great advice from pros and
amateurs alike on both lists.

Best,
Staci

*** 			     ***                               ***
Staci Dumoski 				      unicorn@...
Editor, Phantastes 	 http://www.nocturne.org/phantastes
The Online Journal of Fantasy Criticism

Staci:  On the subject of Williams, and getting a copy of BW 42 from
Ellie:  I'm afraid I mis-spoke.  The issues are only for those
interested in joining the 'zine.   I frankly forgot that when I wrote
you.  Apologies all 'round.  ---djb.

Kevin Grant wrote:
>
> From: Kevin Grant <034571g@...>
>
> Just to throw some more variety into the discussion, I'd like to hear opinions
on
> Guy Gavriel Kay's latest, "Sailing to Sarantium".  I've just finished Book
One, and
> while I'm waiting patiently for Book Two to come out to read, I'm not entirely
into
> the book.  It still has its good points, but it seems to me to fall far short
of the
> greatness he achieved in the Tapestry, and even in Tiganna, Song for Arbonne
and The
> Lions of Al-Rassan.  I thought all the previous books were excellent, and The
> Tapestry to be one of the finest pieces of literature I've ever read (so much
so
> that I'd probably rank it just below Tolkien's work; and if I were less of a
fan,
> then at about the same level).
>
> One thing that really bothered me about this new book is the language.  I
found it
> to be much more offensive than any of his previous books.  The sexual imagery
is on
> about the same level as in the others, but I'm also wondering if it is more
> gratuitous (even in his other non-Tapestry books).  I could see the centrality
of
> the imagery in the Tapestry, and to various extents in some of the others.  I
> suppose I'm wondering if sexuality has become more of a selling strategy, or
if it
> is sadly such a dominant part of society that it must be included in the
literature
> of the times, or does it truly have some literary value.
>
> But beside that, I found that Kay used so many curse words that the story
suffered
> greatly (and I also believe that the same thing, although he used less, also
hurt
> his other works).  He seems to spend more time throwing out curse words than
> developing the characters.  None of them are as strong as the characters in
his
> early works.
>
> So, overall, I would say this is an inferior effort for Kay.  Somehow or
other,
> however, he does hold my interest enough that I still plan on buying the
second book
> to finish reading the story.
>
> Other opinions?
>
> Kevin Grant
Keith:  This comes late according to Internet standards; sorry.
Have not read any Kay, though I have the *Fionnvarr Tapestry.*  Sorry to
hear that Kay is descending to the level of using language as you
describe---seems to me that if one wants to be faithful to a fantasy
idiom that the characters would not pepper their speech with four-letter
words unless he is trying to depict a culture which has some reason for
using this kind of speech (perhaps in verbal one-upsmanship games, like
"playing the dozens," or something similar).  One of the reasons I like
fantasy is because characters do not use the modern idioms as part of
their behavior.  (Katherine Kurtz, good as she is, often has her
political councils engaging in too much realpolitik.)  As for language,
people of the past certainly referred to and used bawdy speech (look at
certain passages of Shakespeare), but they are skillful insulters, and
can really weild a verbal rapier!  ---djb

Following Diane Baker's comments about BW in a recent post, this seems an
appropriate time to introduce Butterbur's Woodshed to list members who
might not be familiar with it. The Mythopoeic Society sponsors two "apa"
(amateur press association) publications, which work more or less as print
discussion groups. I am the editor of _Butterbur's Woodshed_, which focuses
on general fantasy literature, especially new books which may be eligible
for the Society's annual Mythopoeic Awards. We publish every other month,
six times a year, and have set topics for each issue.

The other Society-sponsored apa is _Once Upon a Time_ which focuses on
children's literature.

Please note that, unlike the other Society publications, these are not
available for subscription only; they require participation to join and to
remain active.

Specific information on either or both of these publications can be found
on the Society web site:

	 http://www.mythsoc.org/discgroups.html

As the editor of _Butterbur's Woodshed_, I will be happy to answer
questions from anyone who is interested in joining or in learning more
about our topics; please contact me directly.

Ellie Farrell
emfarrell@...

********************************************************************************
	 Eleanor M. Farrell
	 P.O. Box 320486
	 San Francisco, CA 94132-0486
	 E-mail: emfarrell@...

Editor, Mythprint (Mythopoeic Society newsletter)
Mythopoeic Society web site: http://www.mythsoc.org
********************************************************************************

Kevin:  It just occurred to me that your name is KEVIN, not Keith.  A
thousand pardons for the slip.  ---djb.

Folks, when you reply to another message, would you please edit the
original message, leaving only the text of what you are actually
responding to?  This is a point of netiquette.  Pages and pages of
quoted material that are irrelevant take too long to scroll through.
Time is money, and many of us don't have enough of either.

Thank you.

Berni

Weren't the basic rules for magic (three of them I think) given by Fletcher
Pratt and L. Sprague de Camp in the Harold Shea stories many years ago?
Sorry I can't quote their terms (one of them may have been
"Contagion")--it's been too long since I read them.

--Joe

Silante Eleanor,

Can you tell me more 'bout Butterbur's Woodshed? (I know what APAs are like
_I was in several years ago.) Would it be possible to see an issue? If so,
my mailing address is 82 Rackleff Street, Portland ME 04103. Thanks!


Cat Eldridge / I cursed him in my heart. "Um, what day is
Folk Tales. / it?" With the infinite patience of someone
An Online Folk Magazine / used to dealing with drunks, musicians, and
WWW.KINROWAN.COM / techies, he replied, "Sunday."