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#22300 From: "lynnmaudlin" <lynnmaudlin@...>
Date: Mon May 2, 2011 12:17 am
Subject: Re: Mythcon 42 Progress Report #1
lynnmaudlin
Send Email Send Email
 
Leslie Donovan, do you see this?

  -- Lynn --

--- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, Joan.Marie.Verba@... wrote:
>
> I won't be able to make it to Mythcon 42, but if the committee makes t-shirts
> with the logo on it, I want one! (I'll pay for the shirt and postage, of
> course!)
>
> Joan
>

#22301 From: Jef Murray <jef.murray@...>
Date: Mon May 2, 2011 1:05 pm
Subject: Re: Mythcon 42 Progress Report #1
jef.murray
Send Email Send Email
 
    Oooo! That would be fun! T-shirts!

            Jef

===================================================================
Mystical Realms - Exploring the boundaries between worlds.....
http://www.JefMurray.com
===================================================================        

#22302 From: WendellWag@...
Date: Mon May 2, 2011 2:11 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Mythcon 42 Progress Report #1
wendell_wagner
Send Email Send Email
 
T-shirts designed for each Mythcon are pretty standard.
 
Wendell Wagner
 
In a message dated 5/2/2011 9:05:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jef.murray@... writes:
 

    Oooo! That would be fun! T-shirts!

            Jef


#22303 From: Ernest Davis <davise@...>
Date: Mon May 2, 2011 11:56 pm
Subject: What words cannot express
ernestsdavis
Send Email Send Email
 
I very much enjoyed David's review of "War of the Fantasy Worlds" by
Martha Sammons in this month's Mythprint, and look forward to the
full-length hatchet job in Mythlore.

One point that he raises I find particularly thought-provoking. He quotes
the passage from The Hobbit:

     To say that Bilbo's breath was taken away is no description at all.
     There are no words left to express his staggerment, since Men changed
     the language they learned of elves in the days when all the world was
     wonderful.

This is one of JRRT's little gems. David contrasts it with some clunky
passages in Narnia where Lewis says that he can't describe this or that in
Narnia.

I think it's correct to say, though, that other, similar attempts by
Tolkien at the same thing are much less successful. For example, Faramir
says to Eowyn:

     you are a lady beautiful, I deem, even beyond the words of the
     Elven-tongue to tell.

I find that pedestrian. I'm really not sure where the difference lies, and
would be interested in any thoughts. I can think of a few possibilities:


1. The thought that language was more expressive in days of yore is
compelling and moving; the thought that the Elves speak a more expressive
language is just another superlative associated with the Elves.

2. The logical structure is different. The passage from the Hobbit says
that the language of the elves _would_ be adequate to describe Bilbo's
staggerment; Faramir says that it would _not_ be adequate to describe
Eowyn's beauty.

3. Difference in subject matter and the inherent plausibility of the
claim. Smaug's hoard was indeed absolutely breath-taking as compared to
the small collection of dwarf treasures in the museum at Michel Delving.
Whereas one doesn't suppose that Eowyn was actually _that_ much more
beautiful than the other lovely maidens in Minas Tirith that Faramir had
dated.

4. Just unevenness in the writing. "in the days when all the world was
wonderful" is a beautiful phrase. "a lady beautiful, I deem" is a rather
ugly one.

-- Ernie

#22304 From: Alana Abbott <alanajoli@...>
Date: Tue May 3, 2011 1:05 am
Subject: Re: What words cannot express
artiephesus
Send Email Send Email
 
Ernie, could it partly be due to one of the phrases coming from the narrator, while the other is being used in dialog? Faramir's line is probably an exaggeration for pleasing (and flattering) effect -- or else he's being completely honest, but his opinion is impacted by his romantic notions about the lady in question. The narrator is just speaking the truth (and, presumably, has a working knowledge of the language of the elves, which Faramir [I think!] does not).

-Alana

On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 7:56 PM, Ernest Davis <davise@...> wrote:
 I find that pedestrian. I'm really not sure where the difference lies, and 

would be interested in any thoughts. I can think of a few possibilities:




--
Alana Joli Abbott, Freelance Writer and Editor (http://www.virgilandbeatrice.com)
Author of Into the Reach and Departure, available at http://tinyurl.com/aja-ebooks
Columnist, "The Town with Five Main Streets," http://branford.patch.com/columns/the-town-with-five-main-streets
Contributor to Origins Award winner, Serenity Adventures: http://tinyurl.com/serenity-adventures
--
For updates on my writings, join my mailing list at http://groups.google.com/group/alanajoliabbottfans


#22305 From: "Darrell A. Martin" <darrellm@...>
Date: Tue May 3, 2011 1:18 am
Subject: Re: What words cannot express
forbarad
Send Email Send Email
 
On 5/2/2011 8:05 PM, Alana Abbott wrote:
>
> Ernie, could it partly be due to one of the phrases coming from the
> narrator, while the other is being used in dialog? Faramir's line is
> probably an exaggeration for pleasing (and flattering) effect -- or else
> he's being completely honest, but his opinion is impacted by his
> romantic notions about the lady in question. The narrator is just
> speaking the truth (and, presumably, has a working knowledge of the
> language of the elves, which Faramir [I think!] does not).
>
> -Alana

Alana:

Or it may be that Faramir is simply less adept with Westron than the
Hobbit narrator is with English [grin].

I do believe, however, that Sindarin was kept as a language of lore
and/or state in Gondor of the late Third Age. I didn't check, I'm busy
cleaning my Brown Bess.

Darrell

#22306 From: "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@...>
Date: Tue May 3, 2011 1:41 am
Subject: Re: What words cannot express
endorendil
Send Email Send Email
 
I think in large part it is due to the alliteration in "Bilbo's breath",
"express his staggerment, since", "the language learned of elves", and "when all
the world was wonderful"; and to the forceful string of monosyllables that
introduce the second sentence ("There are no words left"). It is thus more
poetic and at once more expansive and yet, thanks to the alliteration, cohesive
than Faramir's briefer, simpler, and more direct statement.

Carl


On May 2, 2011, at 7:56 PM, Ernest Davis wrote:

>
> I very much enjoyed David's review of "War of the Fantasy Worlds" by
> Martha Sammons in this month's Mythprint, and look forward to the
> full-length hatchet job in Mythlore.
>
> One point that he raises I find particularly thought-provoking. He quotes
> the passage from The Hobbit:
>
> To say that Bilbo's breath was taken away is no description at all.
> There are no words left to express his staggerment, since Men changed
> the language they learned of elves in the days when all the world was
> wonderful.
>
> This is one of JRRT's little gems. David contrasts it with some clunky
> passages in Narnia where Lewis says that he can't describe this or that in
> Narnia.
>
> I think it's correct to say, though, that other, similar attempts by
> Tolkien at the same thing are much less successful. For example, Faramir
> says to Eowyn:
>
> you are a lady beautiful, I deem, even beyond the words of the
> Elven-tongue to tell.
>
> I find that pedestrian. I'm really not sure where the difference lies, and
> would be interested in any thoughts. I can think of a few possibilities:
>
> 1. The thought that language was more expressive in days of yore is
> compelling and moving; the thought that the Elves speak a more expressive
> language is just another superlative associated with the Elves.
>
> 2. The logical structure is different. The passage from the Hobbit says
> that the language of the elves _would_ be adequate to describe Bilbo's
> staggerment; Faramir says that it would _not_ be adequate to describe
> Eowyn's beauty.
>
> 3. Difference in subject matter and the inherent plausibility of the
> claim. Smaug's hoard was indeed absolutely breath-taking as compared to
> the small collection of dwarf treasures in the museum at Michel Delving.
> Whereas one doesn't suppose that Eowyn was actually _that_ much more
> beautiful than the other lovely maidens in Minas Tirith that Faramir had
> dated.
>
> 4. Just unevenness in the writing. "in the days when all the world was
> wonderful" is a beautiful phrase. "a lady beautiful, I deem" is a rather
> ugly one.
>
> -- Ernie
>

#22307 From: "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...>
Date: Tue May 3, 2011 5:30 pm
Subject: _Mirkwood_ Lawsuit Settled
voronwe1
Send Email Send Email
 
 
A while back the dispute over the book Mirkwood, A Novel About J.R.R. Tolkien sparked quite a discussion about the Tolkien Estate's actions protecting Tolkien's intellectual property rights (actions which I generally support).  I have now learned that the lawsuit that the author of the book, Steven Hillard, filed in order to obtain a declaratory judgment has been settled.  According to The Hollywood Reporter:
 
According to the settlement, the book will now be released with a modified reference to Tolkien on the cover and will also include the disclaimer, "This is a work of fiction which is neither endorsed nor connected with The JRR Tolkien Estate or its publisher." 
 
The Estate's attorney, Aaron Morse, adds "The settlement terms are confidential, but the agreement adequately addresses the Estate's concerns about Mr. Hillard's book."
 
Sounds like a reasonable settlement to me, addressing the concerns that the Estate had while still allowing the publication to go through.
 
Now if only something could be done about Hillard's prose.

#22308 From: "lynnmaudlin" <lynnmaudlin@...>
Date: Wed May 4, 2011 1:57 am
Subject: Re: Mythcon 42 Progress Report #1
lynnmaudlin
Send Email Send Email
 
Actually, the last couple of years, I've done them (either personally or jointly
with the committee) through Vistaprint (since I'd already paid to upload the
appropriate image files) and sold them through the Society Table.

Vistaprint has been changing their pricing standards (so they're not quite the
killer deal they used to be) and their T-shirts vary in quality...

   -- Lynn --


--- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, WendellWag@... wrote:
>
> T-shirts designed for each Mythcon are pretty standard.
>
> Wendell Wagner
>
>
> In a message dated 5/2/2011 9:05:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> jef.murray@... writes:
>
>
>
>
> Oooo! That would be fun!  T-shirts!
>
> Jef
>

#22309 From: "lynnmaudlin" <lynnmaudlin@...>
Date: Wed May 4, 2011 2:00 am
Subject: Re: _Mirkwood_ Lawsuit Settled
lynnmaudlin
Send Email Send Email
 
"Now if only something could be done about Hillard's prose."

THAT is, I fear, beyond the power of the courts....

   -- Lynn --

--- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...> wrote:
>
>
> A while back the dispute over the book Mirkwood, A Novel About J.R.R. Tolkien
sparked quite a discussion about the Tolkien Estate's actions protecting
Tolkien's intellectual property rights (actions which I generally support).  I
have now learned that the lawsuit that the author of the book, Steven Hillard,
filed in order to obtain a declaratory judgment has been settled.  According to
The Hollywood Reporter:
>
>   According to the settlement, the book will now be released with a modified
reference to Tolkien on the cover and will also include the disclaimer, "This is
a work of fiction which is neither endorsed nor connected with The JRR Tolkien
Estate or its publisher."
>
> The Estate's attorney, Aaron Morse, adds "The settlement terms are
confidential, but the agreement adequately addresses the Estate's concerns about
Mr. Hillard's book."
>
> Sounds like a reasonable settlement to me, addressing the concerns that the
Estate had while still allowing the publication to go through.
>
> Now if only something could be done about Hillard's prose.
>

#22310 From: Andrew Higgins <asthiggins@...>
Date: Wed May 4, 2011 7:01 am
Subject: Where the Shadows Lie - Another Tolkien Themed Book
asthiggins
Send Email Send Email
 
Continuing along this line of Tolken themed books - has anyone dipped into Michael Ridpath's Where the Shadows Lie a thriller set in Iceland whose main plot centers around a lost Norse aaga - Gaukur's Saga - which relates a story about an evil ring (the ring of Andavari perhaps?) and has characters named Isildur and Gandalf.  This saga was "discovered" and sent to Tolkien in 1937-8 just as he was working on his new Hobbit and, in a "letter" Tolkien said he would keep the saga quiet.  In the Modern day there is a group of "fanatical" Tolkienists vying for this saga to discover if the ring is real.  it does have its moments and the portrayal of the onlime Tolkien world is "interesting" and I shall comment more on that when I finish the book on my Kindle/Ipad.

But clearly there is use of Tolkien's name, characters and items from the legendarium and I wonder how much the Tolkien Estate was consulted for this one.  

Link to book below....


I know there is another Inkling themed out there which I will load up to read this summer.  Still ruminating about my new thrill series of Richard Wagner as Solver of Murder Mysteries (Book One - Who Killed the Heldentenor????) 

Thanks Andy 

Sent from the IPAD of Andrew Higgins asthiggins@...  asthiggins on Twitter 
And at his blog Wotan's Musings http://wotanselvishmusings.blogspot.com/


On 4 May 2011, at 03:00, lynnmaudlin <lynnmaudlin@...> wrote:

 

"Now if only something could be done about Hillard's prose."

THAT is, I fear, beyond the power of the courts....

-- Lynn --

--- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...> wrote:
>
>
> A while back the dispute over the book Mirkwood, A Novel About J.R.R. Tolkien sparked quite a discussion about the Tolkien Estate's actions protecting Tolkien's intellectual property rights (actions which I generally support). I have now learned that the lawsuit that the author of the book, Steven Hillard, filed in order to obtain a declaratory judgment has been settled. According to The Hollywood Reporter:
>
> According to the settlement, the book will now be released with a modified reference to Tolkien on the cover and will also include the disclaimer, "This is a work of fiction which is neither endorsed nor connected with The JRR Tolkien Estate or its publisher."
>
> The Estate's attorney, Aaron Morse, adds "The settlement terms are confidential, but the agreement adequately addresses the Estate's concerns about Mr. Hillard's book."
>
> Sounds like a reasonable settlement to me, addressing the concerns that the Estate had while still allowing the publication to go through.
>
> Now if only something could be done about Hillard's prose.
>


#22311 From: dale nelson <extollager2006@...>
Date: Thu May 5, 2011 2:44 am
Subject: Copyright Loremasters?
extollager2006
Send Email Send Email
 
We have some librarians here.  I have a question.  It is for curiosity's sake; the prequel idea I"m about to mention just occurred to me this moment.

Giles Tumulty is a character in two Charles Williams novels, War in Heaven (1930) and Many Dimensions (1931).  Suppose I wanted to write a prequel about Tumulty's ill behavior prior to these books, or -- for that matter -- about his activities between them.  (He dies in Many Dimensions, so no sequel!)  And -- why not? -- suppose I wanted to include Lord Arglay too. 

Would there be any plausible legal problems with this -- in the US, or in the UK?

Suppose, further, that my publisher blazoned "Based on the Characters Created by Charles Williams" across the dustjacket.

Legal problems?

I'm curious.  These questions are prompted by the postings just now about the Tolkien-exploiting books.

Dale Nelson



#22312 From: "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@...>
Date: Thu May 5, 2011 2:53 am
Subject: Re: Copyright Loremasters?
endorendil
Send Email Send Email
 
Copyright in written works pertains not just to the words of a work itself, but
also to derivative works, including the use of characters, settings, situations,
and other original elements created by the author.

So yes, a work that uses characters from Charles Williams novels (which are
still in copyright), being derivative works, would violate copyright if
published without permission.

Carl

On May 4, 2011, at 10:44 PM, dale nelson wrote:

>
> We have some librarians here.  I have a question.  It is for curiosity's sake;
the prequel idea I"m about to mention just occurred to me this moment.
>
> Giles Tumulty is a character in two Charles Williams novels, War in Heaven
(1930) and Many Dimensions (1931).  Suppose I wanted to write a prequel about
Tumulty's ill behavior prior to these books, or -- for that matter -- about his
activities between them.  (He dies in Many Dimensions, so no sequel!)  And --
why not? -- suppose I wanted to include Lord Arglay too.
>
> Would there be any plausible legal problems with this -- in the US, or in the
UK?
>
> Suppose, further, that my publisher blazoned "Based on the Characters Created
by Charles Williams" across the dustjacket.
>
> Legal problems?
>
> I'm curious.  These questions are prompted by the postings just now about the
Tolkien-exploiting books.
>
> Dale Nelson

#22313 From: "Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@...>
Date: Thu May 5, 2011 1:35 pm
Subject: RE: Copyright Loremasters?
jbcroft73019
Send Email Send Email
 

Carl’s right – the author retains the right to create derivative works as long as the original is under copyright. Which is why fan fiction is such a grey area, and probably the only way you could release a story about Giles Tumulty would be for free on a fanfic site (and even then you might be subject to a take-down notice). This is one of the reasons why the continued extension of copyright terms is so contentious; when the public domain (the stuff anyone can use for free – ancient myths, the works of Twain and Dickens, etc.) gets smaller and older, it stifles creativity centered around recent works. By the time the work enters the public domain, no one may be interested in using it as a basis for further creativity anymore.  (Google Kim Stanley Robinson’s short story “Melancholy Elephants” for an eloquent discussion of this problem.)

 

Janet Brennan Croft

Associate Professor
Head of Access Services
University of Oklahoma Libraries
http://ou.academia.edu/JanetCroft/CurriculumVitae
Editor of Mythlore http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html

"Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the rising ape meets the falling angel." -Terry Pratchett

 

From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl F. Hostetter
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 9:54 PM
To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Copyright Loremasters?

 

 

Copyright in written works pertains not just to the words of a work itself, but also to derivative works, including the use of characters, settings, situations, and other original elements created by the author.

So yes, a work that uses characters from Charles Williams novels (which are still in copyright), being derivative works, would violate copyright if published without permission.

Carl

On May 4, 2011, at 10:44 PM, dale nelson wrote:

>
> We have some librarians here. I have a question. It is for curiosity's sake; the prequel idea I"m about to mention just occurred to me this moment.
>
> Giles Tumulty is a character in two Charles Williams novels, War in Heaven (1930) and Many Dimensions (1931). Suppose I wanted to write a prequel about Tumulty's ill behavior prior to these books, or -- for that matter -- about his activities between them. (He dies in Many Dimensions, so no sequel!) And -- why not? -- suppose I wanted to include Lord Arglay too.
>
> Would there be any plausible legal problems with this -- in the US, or in the UK?
>
> Suppose, further, that my publisher blazoned "Based on the Characters Created by Charles Williams" across the dustjacket.
>
> Legal problems?
>
> I'm curious. These questions are prompted by the postings just now about the Tolkien-exploiting books.
>
> Dale Nelson


#22314 From: "IcelofAngeln" <solicitr@...>
Date: Thu May 5, 2011 2:07 pm
Subject: Re: Copyright Loremasters?
icelofangeln
Send Email Send Email
 
However, Dale, don't lose all hope: CW died in 1945, so his copyrights will
expire fairly soon, on 1 January 2016.

--- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@...> wrote:
>
> Copyright in written works pertains not just to the words of a work itself,
but also to derivative works, including the use of characters, settings,
situations, and other original elements created by the author.
>
> So yes, a work that uses characters from Charles Williams novels (which are
still in copyright), being derivative works, would violate copyright if
published without permission.
>
> Carl
>
> On May 4, 2011, at 10:44 PM, dale nelson wrote:
>
> >
> > We have some librarians here.  I have a question.  It is for curiosity's
sake; the prequel idea I"m about to mention just occurred to me this moment.
> >
> > Giles Tumulty is a character in two Charles Williams novels, War in Heaven
(1930) and Many Dimensions (1931).  Suppose I wanted to write a prequel about
Tumulty's ill behavior prior to these books, or -- for that matter -- about his
activities between them.  (He dies in Many Dimensions, so no sequel!)  And --
why not? -- suppose I wanted to include Lord Arglay too.
> >
> > Would there be any plausible legal problems with this -- in the US, or in
the UK?
> >
> > Suppose, further, that my publisher blazoned "Based on the Characters
Created by Charles Williams" across the dustjacket.
> >
> > Legal problems?
> >
> > I'm curious.  These questions are prompted by the postings just now about
the Tolkien-exploiting books.
> >
> > Dale Nelson
>

#22315 From: Jason Fisher <visualweasel@...>
Date: Thu May 5, 2011 2:11 pm
Subject: Re: Copyright Loremasters?
visualweasel
Send Email Send Email
 
Why anyone should want to do this in the first place -- i.e., create derivative works based on the creative efforts of others -- is something I don't quite grasp. I don't grok fanfic and never have. I suppose new, authorized novels set in the Star Trek and Star Wars universes are a bit more understandable -- and lord, there are a lot of them!* -- but personally, I don't have any interest in those either. Just me?
Jase
 
* Does anybody here read them? I have maybe a dozen Star Wars books for review by now! Nobody has ever asked for one, and they are about to become bantha poodoo if no one does.
 


From: "Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@...>
To: "mythsoc@yahoogroups.com" <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, May 5, 2011 8:35:41 AM
Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Copyright Loremasters?

 

Carl’s right – the author retains the right to create derivative works as long as the original is under copyright. Which is why fan fiction is such a grey area, and probably the only way you could release a story about Giles Tumulty would be for free on a fanfic site (and even then you might be subject to a take-down notice). This is one of the reasons why the continued extension of copyright terms is so contentious; when the public domain (the stuff anyone can use for free – ancient myths, the works of Twain and Dickens, etc.) gets smaller and older, it stifles creativity centered around recent works. By the time the work enters the public domain, no one may be interested in using it as a basis for further creativity anymore.  (Google Kim Stanley Robinson’s short story “Melancholy Elephants” for an eloquent discussion of this problem.)

 

Janet Brennan Croft

Associate Professor
Head of Access Services
University of Oklahoma Libraries
http://ou.academia.edu/JanetCroft/CurriculumVitae
Editor of Mythlore http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html

"Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the rising ape meets the falling angel." -Terry Pratchett

 

From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl F. Hostetter
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 9:54 PM
To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Copyright Loremasters?

 

 

Copyright in written works pertains not just to the words of a work itself, but also to derivative works, including the use of characters, settings, situations, and other original elements created by the author.

So yes, a work that uses characters from Charles Williams novels (which are still in copyright), being derivative works, would violate copyright if published without permission.

Carl

On May 4, 2011, at 10:44 PM, dale nelson wrote:

>
> We have some librarians here. I have a question. It is for curiosity's sake; the prequel idea I"m about to mention just occurred to me this moment.
>
> Giles Tumulty is a character in two Charles Williams novels, War in Heaven (1930) and Many Dimensions (1931). Suppose I wanted to write a prequel about Tumulty's ill behavior prior to these books, or -- for that matter -- about his activities between them. (He dies in Many Dimensions, so no sequel!) And -- why not? -- suppose I wanted to include Lord Arglay too.
>
> Would there be any plausible legal problems with this -- in the US, or in the UK?
>
> Suppose, further, that my publisher blazoned "Based on the Characters Created by Charles Williams" across the dustjacket.
>
> Legal problems?
>
> I'm curious. These questions are prompted by the postings just now about the Tolkien-exploiting books.
>
> Dale Nelson


#22316 From: Jason Fisher <visualweasel@...>
Date: Thu May 5, 2011 2:12 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Copyright Loremasters?
visualweasel
Send Email Send Email
 
So few people even read Williams himself, would anyone read works derivative of him?!  ;)

________________________________
From: IcelofAngeln <solicitr@...>
To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, May 5, 2011 9:07:11 AM
Subject: [mythsoc] Re: Copyright Loremasters?
 
However, Dale, don't lose all hope: CW died in 1945, so his copyrights will
expire fairly soon, on 1 January 2016.

#22317 From: WendellWag@...
Date: Thu May 5, 2011 2:15 pm
Subject: Re: Copyright Loremasters?
wendell_wagner
Send Email Send Email
 
Is there going to be a book toss at this year's Mythcon?  You can bring along boxes of books that no one wants to review and toss them all at the wall.
 
Wendell
 
In a message dated 5/5/2011 10:11:34 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, visualweasel@... writes:
 

Why anyone should want to do this in the first place -- i.e., create derivative works based on the creative efforts of others -- is something I don't quite grasp. I don't grok fanfic and never have. I suppose new, authorized novels set in the Star Trek and Star Wars universes are a bit more understandable -- and lord, there are a lot of them!* -- but personally, I don't have any interest in those either. Just me?
Jase
 
* Does anybody here read them? I have maybe a dozen Star Wars books for review by now! Nobody has ever asked for one, and they are about to become bantha poodoo if no one does.
 


From: "Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@...>
To: "mythsoc@yahoogroups.com" <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, May 5, 2011 8:35:41 AM
Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Copyright Loremasters?

 

Carl’s right – the author retains the right to create derivative works as long as the original is under copyright. Which is why fan fiction is such a grey area, and probably the only way you could release a story about Giles Tumulty would be for free on a fanfic site (and even then you might be subject to a take-down notice). This is one of the reasons why the continued extension of copyright terms is so contentious; when the public domain (the stuff anyone can use for free – ancient myths, the works of Twain and Dickens, etc.) gets smaller and older, it stifles creativity centered around recent works. By the time the work enters the public domain, no one may be interested in using it as a basis for further creativity anymore.  (Google Kim Stanley Robinson’s short story “Melancholy Elephants” for an eloquent discussion of this problem.)

 

Janet Brennan Croft

Associate Professor
Head of Access Services
University of Oklahoma Libraries
http://ou.academia.edu/JanetCroft/CurriculumVitae
Editor of Mythlore http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html

"Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the rising ape meets the falling angel." -Terry Pratchett

 

From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl F. Hostetter
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 9:54 PM
To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Copyright Loremasters?

 

Copyright in written works pertains not just to the words of a work itself, but also to derivative works, including the use of characters, settings, situations, and other original elements created by the author.

So yes, a work that uses characters from Charles Williams novels (which are still in copyright), being derivative works, would violate copyright if published without permission.

Carl

On May 4, 2011, at 10:44 PM, dale nelson wrote:

>
> We have some librarians here. I have a question. It is for curiosity's sake; the prequel idea I"m about to mention just occurred to me this moment.
>
> Giles Tumulty is a character in two Charles Williams novels, War in Heaven (1930) and Many Dimensions (1931). Suppose I wanted to write a prequel about Tumulty's ill behavior prior to these books, or -- for that matter -- about his activities between them. (He dies in Many Dimensions, so no sequel!) And -- why not? -- suppose I wanted to include Lord Arglay too.
>
> Would there be any plausible legal problems with this -- in the US, or in the UK?
>
> Suppose, further, that my publisher blazoned "Based on the Characters Created by Charles Williams" across the dustjacket.
>
> Legal problems?
>
> I'm curious. These questions are prompted by the postings just now about the Tolkien-exploiting books.
>
> Dale Nelson


#22318 From: Alana Abbott <alanajoli@...>
Date: Thu May 5, 2011 2:19 pm
Subject: Re: Copyright Loremasters?
artiephesus
Send Email Send Email
 
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 10:11 AM, Jason Fisher <visualweasel@...> wrote:
Why anyone should want to do this in the first place -- i.e., create derivative works based on the creative efforts of others -- is something I don't quite grasp. I don't grok fanfic and never have. I suppose new, authorized novels set in the Star Trek and Star Wars universes are a bit more understandable -- and lord, there are a lot of them!* -- but personally, I don't have any interest in those either. Just me?
Jase
 
* Does anybody here read them? I have maybe a dozen Star Wars books for review by now! Nobody has ever asked for one, and they are about to become bantha poodoo if no one does.

Jase, I used to read *all* of them (some of them quite good, some of them... not) -- but college interfered, so at this point, I'm more than 10 years behind in what's been published. I haven't found the energy (or motivation) to catch up.

-Alana

--
Alana Joli Abbott, Freelance Writer and Editor (http://www.virgilandbeatrice.com)
Author of Into the Reach and Departure, available at http://tinyurl.com/aja-ebooks
Columnist, "The Town with Five Main Streets," http://branford.patch.com/columns/the-town-with-five-main-streets
Contributor to Origins Award winner, Serenity Adventures: http://tinyurl.com/serenity-adventures
--
For updates on my writings, join my mailing list at http://groups.google.com/group/alanajoliabbottfans


#22319 From: Alana Abbott <alanajoli@...>
Date: Thu May 5, 2011 2:22 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Copyright Loremasters?
artiephesus
Send Email Send Email
 
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 10:07 AM, IcelofAngeln <solicitr@...> wrote:
 

However, Dale, don't lose all hope: CW died in 1945, so his copyrights will expire fairly soon, on 1 January 2016.


Does this hold true for British copyright law? I know there are differences between the US and the UK on this topic but haven't ever quite been able to figure it out.

There are also ways of doing spin offs while a work is still inside of copyright, but I think that involves appealing to the copyright holders for permission (and allowing them some form of compensation). I suspect for most books, it's not worth the effort or money -- and is better to wait. :)

-Alana

--
Alana Joli Abbott, Freelance Writer and Editor (http://www.virgilandbeatrice.com)
Author of Into the Reach and Departure, available at http://tinyurl.com/aja-ebooks
Columnist, "The Town with Five Main Streets," http://branford.patch.com/columns/the-town-with-five-main-streets
Contributor to Origins Award winner, Serenity Adventures: http://tinyurl.com/serenity-adventures
--
For updates on my writings, join my mailing list at http://groups.google.com/group/alanajoliabbottfans


#22320 From: Jason Fisher <visualweasel@...>
Date: Thu May 5, 2011 2:24 pm
Subject: Re: Copyright Loremasters?
visualweasel
Send Email Send Email
 
Good idea, but we'd be there all day. I probably have 50 unclaimed review titles by now! I have thought about putting some of them up for auction at Mythcon, but then I realized that if nobody was willing to take any of them for free, then expecting them to pay anything (even for the good of the Society) would be asking rather a lot. :)


From: "WendellWag@..." <WendellWag@...>
To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, May 5, 2011 9:15:05 AM
Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Copyright Loremasters?

 

Is there going to be a book toss at this year's Mythcon?  You can bring along boxes of books that no one wants to review and toss them all at the wall.
 
Wendell
 
In a message dated 5/5/2011 10:11:34 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, visualweasel@... writes:
 

Why anyone should want to do this in the first place -- i.e., create derivative works based on the creative efforts of others -- is something I don't quite grasp. I don't grok fanfic and never have. I suppose new, authorized novels set in the Star Trek and Star Wars universes are a bit more understandable -- and lord, there are a lot of them!* -- but personally, I don't have any interest in those either. Just me?
Jase
 
* Does anybody here read them? I have maybe a dozen Star Wars books for review by now! Nobody has ever asked for one, and they are about to become bantha poodoo if no one does.
 


From: "Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@...>
To: "mythsoc@yahoogroups.com" <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, May 5, 2011 8:35:41 AM
Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Copyright Loremasters?

 

Carl’s right – the author retains the right to create derivative works as long as the original is under copyright. Which is why fan fiction is such a grey area, and probably the only way you could release a story about Giles Tumulty would be for free on a fanfic site (and even then you might be subject to a take-down notice). This is one of the reasons why the continued extension of copyright terms is so contentious; when the public domain (the stuff anyone can use for free – ancient myths, the works of Twain and Dickens, etc.) gets smaller and older, it stifles creativity centered around recent works. By the time the work enters the public domain, no one may be interested in using it as a basis for further creativity anymore.  (Google Kim Stanley Robinson’s short story “Melancholy Elephants” for an eloquent discussion of this problem.)

 

Janet Brennan Croft

Associate Professor
Head of Access Services
University of Oklahoma Libraries
http://ou.academia.edu/JanetCroft/CurriculumVitae
Editor of Mythlore http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html

"Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the rising ape meets the falling angel." -Terry Pratchett

 

From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl F. Hostetter
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 9:54 PM
To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Copyright Loremasters?

 

Copyright in written works pertains not just to the words of a work itself, but also to derivative works, including the use of characters, settings, situations, and other original elements created by the author.

So yes, a work that uses characters from Charles Williams novels (which are still in copyright), being derivative works, would violate copyright if published without permission.

Carl

On May 4, 2011, at 10:44 PM, dale nelson wrote:

>
> We have some librarians here. I have a question. It is for curiosity's sake; the prequel idea I"m about to mention just occurred to me this moment.
>
> Giles Tumulty is a character in two Charles Williams novels, War in Heaven (1930) and Many Dimensions (1931). Suppose I wanted to write a prequel about Tumulty's ill behavior prior to these books, or -- for that matter -- about his activities between them. (He dies in Many Dimensions, so no sequel!) And -- why not? -- suppose I wanted to include Lord Arglay too.
>
> Would there be any plausible legal problems with this -- in the US, or in the UK?
>
> Suppose, further, that my publisher blazoned "Based on the Characters Created by Charles Williams" across the dustjacket.
>
> Legal problems?
>
> I'm curious. These questions are prompted by the postings just now about the Tolkien-exploiting books.
>
> Dale Nelson


#22321 From: "Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@...>
Date: Thu May 5, 2011 2:24 pm
Subject: RE: Copyright Loremasters?
jbcroft73019
Send Email Send Email
 

But haven’t you ever been inspired to, say, wonder what The Odyssey might look like if your main character wandered through the Depression-era southern states? Or wonder what Hamlet’s story looked like from the viewpoint of two relatively minor characters? Both would be considered derivative works by the standards applied to such things as _The Wind Done Gone,_ a retelling of _Gone With the Wind_ that went through the courts a few years ago.

 

Janet

 

From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jason Fisher
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 9:12 AM
To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Copyright Loremasters?

 

 

Why anyone should want to do this in the first place -- i.e., create derivative works based on the creative efforts of others -- is something I don't quite grasp. I don't grok fanfic and never have. I suppose new, authorized novels set in the Star Trek and Star Wars universes are a bit more understandable -- and lord, there are a lot of them!* -- but personally, I don't have any interest in those either. Just me?

Jase

 

* Does anybody here read them? I have maybe a dozen Star Wars books for review by now! Nobody has ever asked for one, and they are about to become bantha poodoo if no one does.

 

 


From: "Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@...>
To: "mythsoc@yahoogroups.com" <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, May 5, 2011 8:35:41 AM
Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Copyright Loremasters?

 

Carl’s right – the author retains the right to create derivative works as long as the original is under copyright. Which is why fan fiction is such a grey area, and probably the only way you could release a story about Giles Tumulty would be for free on a fanfic site (and even then you might be subject to a take-down notice). This is one of the reasons why the continued extension of copyright terms is so contentious; when the public domain (the stuff anyone can use for free – ancient myths, the works of Twain and Dickens, etc.) gets smaller and older, it stifles creativity centered around recent works. By the time the work enters the public domain, no one may be interested in using it as a basis for further creativity anymore.  (Google Kim Stanley Robinson’s short story “Melancholy Elephants” for an eloquent discussion of this problem.)

 

Janet Brennan Croft

Associate Professor
Head of Access Services
University of Oklahoma Libraries
http://ou.academia.edu/JanetCroft/CurriculumVitae
Editor of Mythlore http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html

"Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the rising ape meets the falling angel." -Terry Pratchett

 

From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl F. Hostetter
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 9:54 PM
To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Copyright Loremasters?

 

 

Copyright in written works pertains not just to the words of a work itself, but also to derivative works, including the use of characters, settings, situations, and other original elements created by the author.

So yes, a work that uses characters from Charles Williams novels (which are still in copyright), being derivative works, would violate copyright if published without permission.

Carl

On May 4, 2011, at 10:44 PM, dale nelson wrote:

>
> We have some librarians here. I have a question. It is for curiosity's sake; the prequel idea I"m about to mention just occurred to me this moment.
>
> Giles Tumulty is a character in two Charles Williams novels, War in Heaven (1930) and Many Dimensions (1931). Suppose I wanted to write a prequel about Tumulty's ill behavior prior to these books, or -- for that matter -- about his activities between them. (He dies in Many Dimensions, so no sequel!) And -- why not? -- suppose I wanted to include Lord Arglay too.
>
> Would there be any plausible legal problems with this -- in the US, or in the UK?
>
> Suppose, further, that my publisher blazoned "Based on the Characters Created by Charles Williams" across the dustjacket.
>
> Legal problems?
>
> I'm curious. These questions are prompted by the postings just now about the Tolkien-exploiting books.
>
> Dale Nelson


#22322 From: marc drayer <mdrayer2001@...>
Date: Thu May 5, 2011 2:32 pm
Subject: RE: Copyright Loremasters?
mdrayer2001
Send Email Send Email
 
And there are several real good fanfics of the Inklings works out that I have read, particularly fanfics of the Narnia series which try to resolve the problem of Susan at the end of The Last Battle, or several other issues that are left unsaid.

Marc

 


--- On Thu, 5/5/11, Croft, Janet B. <jbcroft@...> wrote:

From: Croft, Janet B. <jbcroft@...>
Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Copyright Loremasters?
To: "mythsoc@yahoogroups.com" <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thursday, May 5, 2011, 9:24 AM

 

But haven’t you ever been inspired to, say, wonder what The Odyssey might look like if your main character wandered through the Depression-era southern states? Or wonder what Hamlet’s story looked like from the viewpoint of two relatively minor characters? Both would be considered derivative works by the standards applied to such things as _The Wind Done Gone,_ a retelling of _Gone With the Wind_ that went through the courts a few years ago.

 

Janet

 

From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jason Fisher
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 9:12 AM
To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Copyright Loremasters?

 

 

Why anyone should want to do this in the first place -- i.e., create derivative works based on the creative efforts of others -- is something I don't quite grasp. I don't grok fanfic and never have. I suppose new, authorized novels set in the Star Trek and Star Wars universes are a bit more understandable -- and lord, there are a lot of them!* -- but personally, I don't have any interest in those either. Just me?

Jase

 

* Does anybody here read them? I have maybe a dozen Star Wars books for review by now! Nobody has ever asked for one, and they are about to become bantha poodoo if no one does.

 

 


From: "Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@...>
To: "mythsoc@yahoogroups.com" <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, May 5, 2011 8:35:41 AM
Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Copyright Loremasters?

 

Carl’s right – the author retains the right to create derivative works as long as the original is under copyright. Which is why fan fiction is such a grey area, and probably the only way you could release a story about Giles Tumulty would be for free on a fanfic site (and even then you might be subject to a take-down notice). This is one of the reasons why the continued extension of copyright terms is so contentious; when the public domain (the stuff anyone can use for free – ancient myths, the works of Twain and Dickens, etc.) gets smaller and older, it stifles creativity centered around recent works. By the time the work enters the public domain, no one may be interested in using it as a basis for further creativity anymore.  (Google Kim Stanley Robinson’s short story “Melancholy Elephants” for an eloquent discussion of this problem.)

 

Janet Brennan Croft

Associate Professor
Head of Access Services
University of Oklahoma Libraries
http://ou.academia.edu/JanetCroft/CurriculumVitae
Editor of Mythlore http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html

"Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the rising ape meets the falling angel." -Terry Pratchett

 

From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl F. Hostetter
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 9:54 PM
To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Copyright Loremasters?

 

 

Copyright in written works pertains not just to the words of a work itself, but also to derivative works, including the use of characters, settings, situations, and other original elements created by the author.

So yes, a work that uses characters from Charles Williams novels (which are still in copyright), being derivative works, would violate copyright if published without permission.

Carl

On May 4, 2011, at 10:44 PM, dale nelson wrote:

>
> We have some librarians here. I have a question. It is for curiosity's sake; the prequel idea I"m about to mention just occurred to me this moment.
>
> Giles Tumulty is a character in two Charles Williams novels, War in Heaven (1930) and Many Dimensions (1931). Suppose I wanted to write a prequel about Tumulty's ill behavior prior to these books, or -- for that matter -- about his activities between them. (He dies in Many Dimensions, so no sequel!) And -- why not? -- suppose I wanted to include Lord Arglay too.
>
> Would there be any plausible legal problems with this -- in the US, or in the UK?
>
> Suppose, further, that my publisher blazoned "Based on the Characters Created by Charles Williams" across the dustjacket.
>
> Legal problems?
>
> I'm curious. These questions are prompted by the postings just now about the Tolkien-exploiting books.
>
> Dale Nelson


#22323 From: "Jo Foster" <jfoster@...>
Date: Thu May 5, 2011 2:34 pm
Subject: RE: Copyright Loremasters?
joanne.foster43
Send Email Send Email
 

But it has, eg, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead.  Yes, a bit later but still.  And Homer won’t sue.

 

Jo

 


From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Croft, Janet B.
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 9:25 AM
To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Copyright Loremasters?

 

 

But haven’t you ever been inspired to, say, wonder what The Odyssey might look like if your main character wandered through the Depression-era southern states? Or wonder what Hamlet’s story looked like from the viewpoint of two relatively minor characters? Both would be considered derivative works by the standards applied to such things as _The Wind Done Gone,_ a retelling of _Gone With the Wind_ that went through the courts a few years ago.

 

Janet

 

From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jason Fisher
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 9:12 AM
To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Copyright Loremasters?

 

 

Why anyone should want to do this in the first place -- i.e., create derivative works based on the creative efforts of others -- is something I don't quite grasp. I don't grok fanfic and never have. I suppose new, authorized novels set in the Star Trek and Star Wars universes are a bit more understandable -- and lord, there are a lot of them!* -- but personally, I don't have any interest in those either. Just me?

Jase

 

* Does anybody here read them? I have maybe a dozen Star Wars books for review by now! Nobody has ever asked for one, and they are about to become bantha poodoo if no one does.

 

 


From: "Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@...>
To: "mythsoc@yahoogroups.com" <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, May 5, 2011 8:35:41 AM
Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Copyright Loremasters?

 

Carl’s right – the author retains the right to create derivative works as long as the original is under copyright. Which is why fan fiction is such a grey area, and probably the only way you could release a story about Giles Tumulty would be for free on a fanfic site (and even then you might be subject to a take-down notice). This is one of the reasons why the continued extension of copyright terms is so contentious; when the public domain (the stuff anyone can use for free – ancient myths, the works of Twain and Dickens, etc.) gets smaller and older, it stifles creativity centered around recent works. By the time the work enters the public domain, no one may be interested in using it as a basis for further creativity anymore.  (Google Kim Stanley Robinson’s short story “Melancholy Elephants” for an eloquent discussion of this problem.)

 

Janet Brennan Croft

Associate Professor
Head of Access Services
University of Oklahoma Libraries
http://ou.academia.edu/JanetCroft/CurriculumVitae
Editor of Mythlore http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html

"Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the rising ape meets the falling angel." -Terry Pratchett

 

From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl F. Hostetter
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 9:54 PM
To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Copyright Loremasters?

 

 

Copyright in written works pertains not just to the words of a work itself, but also to derivative works, including the use of characters, settings, situations, and other original elements created by the author.

So yes, a work that uses characters from Charles Williams novels (which are still in copyright), being derivative works, would violate copyright if published without permission.

Carl

On May 4, 2011, at 10:44 PM, dale nelson wrote:

>
> We have some librarians here. I have a question. It is for curiosity's sake; the prequel idea I"m about to mention just occurred to me this moment.
>
> Giles Tumulty is a character in two Charles Williams novels, War in Heaven (1930) and Many Dimensions (1931). Suppose I wanted to write a prequel about Tumulty's ill behavior prior to these books, or -- for that matter -- about his activities between them. (He dies in Many Dimensions, so no sequel!) And -- why not? -- suppose I wanted to include Lord Arglay too.
>
> Would there be any plausible legal problems with this -- in the US, or in the UK?
>
> Suppose, further, that my publisher blazoned "Based on the Characters Created by Charles Williams" across the dustjacket.
>
> Legal problems?
>
> I'm curious. These questions are prompted by the postings just now about the Tolkien-exploiting books.
>
> Dale Nelson


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#22324 From: "Mike Foster" <mafoster@...>
Date: Thu May 5, 2011 2:40 pm
Subject: Re: Copyright Loremasters?
mafoster43
Send Email Send Email
 
Not to mention all of Peoria writer Philip Jose Farmer’s “Riverworld” series and his Venus on the Half Shell featuring K. Vonnegut Jr.’s sci-fi writer Kilgore Trout.  Farmer told me with a chortle that Vonnegut was not pleased when some reviewers though he had written it and that it was his best book in years.
 
Mike
 
From: Jo Foster
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 9:34 AM
Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Copyright Loremasters?
 
 

But it has, eg, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead.  Yes, a bit later but still.  And Homer won’t sue.

Jo


From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Croft, Janet B.
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 9:25 AM
To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Copyright Loremasters?

 

But haven’t you ever been inspired to, say, wonder what The Odyssey might look like if your main character wandered through the Depression-era southern states? Or wonder what Hamlet’s story looked like from the viewpoint of two relatively minor characters? Both would be considered derivative works by the standards applied to such things as _The Wind Done Gone,_ a retelling of _Gone With the Wind_ that went through the courts a few years ago.

Janet

From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jason Fisher
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 9:12 AM
To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Copyright Loremasters?

 

Why anyone should want to do this in the first place -- i.e., create derivative works based on the creative efforts of others -- is something I don't quite grasp. I don't grok fanfic and never have. I suppose new, authorized novels set in the Star Trek and Star Wars universes are a bit more understandable -- and lord, there are a lot of them!* -- but personally, I don't have any interest in those either. Just me?

Jase

* Does anybody here read them? I have maybe a dozen Star Wars books for review by now! Nobody has ever asked for one, and they are about to become bantha poodoo if no one does.


From: "Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@...>
To: "mythsoc@yahoogroups.com" <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, May 5, 2011 8:35:41 AM
Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Copyright Loremasters?

 

Carl’s right – the author retains the right to create derivative works as long as the original is under copyright. Which is why fan fiction is such a grey area, and probably the only way you could release a story about Giles Tumulty would be for free on a fanfic site (and even then you might be subject to a take-down notice). This is one of the reasons why the continued extension of copyright terms is so contentious; when the public domain (the stuff anyone can use for free – ancient myths, the works of Twain and Dickens, etc.) gets smaller and older, it stifles creativity centered around recent works. By the time the work enters the public domain, no one may be interested in using it as a basis for further creativity anymore.  (Google Kim Stanley Robinson’s short story “Melancholy Elephants” for an eloquent discussion of this problem.)

Janet Brennan Croft

Associate Professor
Head of Access Services
University of Oklahoma Libraries
http://ou.academia.edu/JanetCroft/CurriculumVitae
Editor of Mythlore http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html

"Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the rising ape meets the falling angel." -Terry Pratchett

From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl F. Hostetter
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 9:54 PM
To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Copyright Loremasters?

 

Copyright in written works pertains not just to the words of a work itself, but also to derivative works, including the use of characters, settings, situations, and other original elements created by the author.

So yes, a work that uses characters from Charles Williams novels (which are still in copyright), being derivative works, would violate copyright if published without permission.

Carl

On May 4, 2011, at 10:44 PM, dale nelson wrote:

>
> We have some librarians here. I have a question. It is for curiosity's sake; the prequel idea I"m about to mention just occurred to me this moment.
>
> Giles Tumulty is a character in two Charles Williams novels, War in Heaven (1930) and Many Dimensions (1931). Suppose I wanted to write a prequel about Tumulty's ill behavior prior to these books, or -- for that matter -- about his activities between them. (He dies in Many Dimensions, so no sequel!) And -- why not? -- suppose I wanted to include Lord Arglay too.
>
> Would there be any plausible legal problems with this -- in the US, or in the UK?
>
> Suppose, further, that my publisher blazoned "Based on the Characters Created by Charles Williams" across the dustjacket.
>
> Legal problems?
>
> I'm curious. These questions are prompted by the postings just now about the Tolkien-exploiting books.
>
> Dale Nelson


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#22325 From: Jason Fisher <visualweasel@...>
Date: Thu May 5, 2011 2:51 pm
Subject: Re: Copyright Loremasters?
visualweasel
Send Email Send Email
 
Good point, Janet! This is a little different from what the kind of derivative work I was thinking of. Yes, such works as these sometimes interest me. I'm a big fan of Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead, and I often like retellings of Shakespeare (West Side Story, for example). And even I myself have thought about writing a new version of Sartre's No Exit, told entirely from the point of view of the Valet.
 
It's really wish-fulfillment type of fanfic that I don't care for. The "I want to walk around in Middle-earth", or "Tolkien didn't give me enough, so I'm going to make more" kind of thing. I know plenty of people like it. I just don't get it. And please, there is no need for anyone to try to convince me — I fear I may have opened another Pandora's Box where the pro-fanfic crowd will now write dozens of messages extolling the virtues of fanfic or explaining the pyschology behind it. Well, if you must, go ahead, but not on my account! :)
 
Jase


From: "Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@...>
To: "mythsoc@yahoogroups.com" <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, May 5, 2011 9:24:53 AM
Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Copyright Loremasters?

 

But haven’t you ever been inspired to, say, wonder what The Odyssey might look like if your main character wandered through the Depression-era southern states? Or wonder what Hamlet’s story looked like from the viewpoint of two relatively minor characters? Both would be considered derivative works by the standards applied to such things as _The Wind Done Gone,_ a retelling of _Gone With the Wind_ that went through the courts a few years ago.

 

Janet

 

From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jason Fisher
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 9:12 AM
To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Copyright Loremasters?

 

 

Why anyone should want to do this in the first place -- i.e., create derivative works based on the creative efforts of others -- is something I don't quite grasp. I don't grok fanfic and never have. I suppose new, authorized novels set in the Star Trek and Star Wars universes are a bit more understandable -- and lord, there are a lot of them!* -- but personally, I don't have any interest in those either. Just me?

Jase

 

* Does anybody here read them? I have maybe a dozen Star Wars books for review by now! Nobody has ever asked for one, and they are about to become bantha poodoo if no one does.

 

 


From: "Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@...>
To: "mythsoc@yahoogroups.com" <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, May 5, 2011 8:35:41 AM
Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Copyright Loremasters?

 

Carl’s right – the author retains the right to create derivative works as long as the original is under copyright. Which is why fan fiction is such a grey area, and probably the only way you could release a story about Giles Tumulty would be for free on a fanfic site (and even then you might be subject to a take-down notice). This is one of the reasons why the continued extension of copyright terms is so contentious; when the public domain (the stuff anyone can use for free – ancient myths, the works of Twain and Dickens, etc.) gets smaller and older, it stifles creativity centered around recent works. By the time the work enters the public domain, no one may be interested in using it as a basis for further creativity anymore.  (Google Kim Stanley Robinson’s short story “Melancholy Elephants” for an eloquent discussion of this problem.)

 

Janet Brennan Croft

Associate Professor
Head of Access Services
University of Oklahoma Libraries
http://ou.academia.edu/JanetCroft/CurriculumVitae
Editor of Mythlore http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html

"Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the rising ape meets the falling angel." -Terry Pratchett

 

From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl F. Hostetter
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 9:54 PM
To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Copyright Loremasters?

 

 

Copyright in written works pertains not just to the words of a work itself, but also to derivative works, including the use of characters, settings, situations, and other original elements created by the author.

So yes, a work that uses characters from Charles Williams novels (which are still in copyright), being derivative works, would violate copyright if published without permission.

Carl

On May 4, 2011, at 10:44 PM, dale nelson wrote:

>
> We have some librarians here. I have a question. It is for curiosity's sake; the prequel idea I"m about to mention just occurred to me this moment.
>
> Giles Tumulty is a character in two Charles Williams novels, War in Heaven (1930) and Many Dimensions (1931). Suppose I wanted to write a prequel about Tumulty's ill behavior prior to these books, or -- for that matter -- about his activities between them. (He dies in Many Dimensions, so no sequel!) And -- why not? -- suppose I wanted to include Lord Arglay too.
>
> Would there be any plausible legal problems with this -- in the US, or in the UK?
>
> Suppose, further, that my publisher blazoned "Based on the Characters Created by Charles Williams" across the dustjacket.
>
> Legal problems?
>
> I'm curious. These questions are prompted by the postings just now about the Tolkien-exploiting books.
>
> Dale Nelson


#22326 From: Constance Edwards <constanceedwards@...>
Date: Thu May 5, 2011 3:14 pm
Subject: RE: Copyright Loremasters?
constanceedw...
Send Email Send Email
 
Janet B. Croft wrote: Google Kim Stanley Robinson’s short story “Melancholy Elephants” for an eloquent discussion of this problem.

Um... Spider Robinson, not Kim Stanley. (who both have moments of greatness, but in completely different ways...)

Constance

#22327 From: "Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@...>
Date: Thu May 5, 2011 3:23 pm
Subject: RE: Copyright Loremasters?
jbcroft73019
Send Email Send Email
 

Right! Shouldn’t type before that second cup of coffee.

 

Melancholy elephants --- on Mars!

 

Janet

 

 

From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Constance Edwards
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 10:14 AM
To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Copyright Loremasters?

 

 

Janet B. Croft wrote: Google Kim Stanley Robinson’s short story “Melancholy Elephants” for an eloquent discussion of this problem.

Um... Spider Robinson, not Kim Stanley. (who both have moments of greatness, but in completely different ways...)

Constance


#22328 From: "David Bratman" <dbratman@...>
Date: Thu May 5, 2011 3:29 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Copyright Loremasters?
dbratman1
Send Email Send Email
 
"IcelofAngeln" <solicitr@...> wrote:

> However, Dale, don't lose all hope: CW died in 1945, so
> his copyrights will expire fairly soon, on 1 January 2016.

I don't believe that's the case.  His novels published in his own lifetime
expire their copyright 95 years after publication, thus 2026 at the
earliest, unless the term is extended again before that date arrives, which
has happened before.  The 2016 date would only apply to works still
unpublished today or not published under 2003 or later.  See
http://www.sunsteinlaw.com/practices/copyright-portfolio-development/flowchart.h\
tm

#22329 From: "David Bratman" <dbratman@...>
Date: Thu May 5, 2011 3:30 pm
Subject: Re: Copyright Loremasters?
dbratman1
Send Email Send Email
 
"Jason Fisher" <visualweasel@...> wrote:

>Why anyone should want to do this in the first place -- i.e., create
>derivative
>works based on the creative efforts of others -- is something I don't quite
>grasp.

In a later post, you wrote that you didn't mean things like "Rosencrantz and
Guildenstern Are Dead", but that's not what you said above.  You're now in
the position of having said you don't grasp a whole class of works, when
what you meant was that you don't like the ones you don't think are any
good.  Well, nobody likes stuff they don't think is any good.  And
"wish-fulfillment" is not limited to derivative works; it's simply that
having a ready-made universe to work in makes plugging your work into the
reader's mind a lot easier for hack authors.

I could point out that Tolkien wrote a fair number of loosely derivative
works, and that almost all of Shakespeare's plots are modified retellings of
well-known stories.  It's not that self-published fanfic is derivative
that's the problem.  The problem is that most of it is bad.  But then, most
self-published fiction is bad.  So what else is new?


>I suppose new, authorized novels set
>in the Star Trek and Star Wars universes are a bit more understandable --
>and
>lord, there are a lot of them!* -- but personally, I don't have any
>interest in
>those either. Just me?

Me neither, but that's because I'm not very interested in those universes.
For me, Star Wars is a passingly enjoyable movie I saw 35 years ago, and of
no more interest than any other passingly enjoyable movie I saw 35 years
ago.

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