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#21483 From: WendellWag@...
Date: Sat Oct 2, 2010 9:07 pm
Subject: What If "The Lord of the Rings" Had Been Written by Someone Else
wendell_wagner
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You might be interested in looking at this:
 
 
This was originally a thread (from about ten years ago) on the Straight Dope Message Board called "What If "The Lord of the Rings" Had Been Written by Someone Else".  It was slashdotted, so it got lots of contributions from all over the Internet.  It consists of short parodies of Tolkien done in the style of various books, authors, movies, Broadway musicals, television shows, political pundits, musicians, politicians, stand-up comedians, scholars, and many others.  There are over a thousand of them.  It's now laid out in a much neater fashion than the way it originally was and is carefully indexed.
 
Wendell Wagner

#21484 From: Cole Matson <ccematson@...>
Date: Sun Oct 3, 2010 3:14 pm
Subject: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?
ncmnyu
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Figured I'd call upon the minds of the masses.

I was sitting in the Eagle & Child this afternoon, and I overheard a customer asking the bartender if she knew the name of a local pub he had heard of that contained a sword that had some relation to Tolkien. Neither the bartender nor I had any idea what he was talking about, and since we loathe not being able to answer Inklings-related pub questions, we're trying to find out. Google has been no help. Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Cole Matson

#21485 From: Linda DeMars <linda@...>
Date: Sun Oct 3, 2010 9:21 pm
Subject: Re: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?
lindacdemars
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Probably a ridiculous thought- but, recently, there was an episode on Innspector Lewis (Morse's assistant) about the Inklings,  and a sword figured in the mystery. The story was mostly about Lewis (our Lewis, Jack- not the TV detective) but I believe Tolkien's name was mentioned a couple of times. Might this have been what the tourist was referring to?

Linda DeMars

On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Cole Matson <ccematson@...> wrote:
 

Figured I'd call upon the minds of the masses.

I was sitting in the Eagle & Child this afternoon, and I overheard a customer asking the bartender if she knew the name of a local pub he had heard of that contained a sword that had some relation to Tolkien. Neither the bartender nor I had any idea what he was talking about, and since we loathe not being able to answer Inklings-related pub questions, we're trying to find out. Google has been no help. Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Cole Matson



#21486 From: WendellWag@...
Date: Sun Oct 3, 2010 9:08 pm
Subject: Re: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?
wendell_wagner
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According to some searching online I've just done, in this episode someone is killed with a sword.  This sword is referred to in some of the webpages I've found as Peter's Sword of Truth from The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.  I don't know if there is any such sword mentioned in the Narnia books.  I don't know if any such thing happens in the episode.  I don't know how the episode explains there being such a sword.  Does some Narnia fan in the episode make a sword and declare it to be modeled on the one in the Narnia books?  Did the customer somehow conflate this all and decide that there was a sword related to Tolkien at the Eagle and the Child?
 
Wendell Wagner
 
In a message dated 10/3/2010 5:21:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, linda@... writes:
 

Probably a ridiculous thought- but, recently, there was an episode on Innspector Lewis (Morse's assistant) about the Inklings,  and a sword figured in the mystery. The story was mostly about Lewis (our Lewis, Jack- not the TV detective) but I believe Tolkien's name was mentioned a couple of times. Might this have been what the tourist was referring to?

Linda DeMars

On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Cole Matson <ccematson@...> wrote:
 

Figured I'd call upon the minds of the masses.

I was sitting in the Eagle & Child this afternoon, and I overheard a customer asking the bartender if she knew the name of a local pub he had heard of that contained a sword that had some relation to Tolkien. Neither the bartender nor I had any idea what he was talking about, and since we loathe not being able to answer Inklings-related pub questions, we're trying to find out. Google has been no help. Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Cole Matson



#21487 From: John Rateliff <sacnoth@...>
Date: Mon Oct 4, 2010 2:56 am
Subject: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?
sacnoth32
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Hi Cole

   As a few other folks pointed out, this comes entirely from the episode of LEWIS (the tv-sequel to INSPECTOR MORSE) which showed such a sword ("the Sword of Peter") in the Eagle & Child. It's important to the plot, since a character gets killed with it. There's nothing in any of Lewis's books to back it up: it's entirely an invention of the scriptwriters.  And it's linked to Lewis's Narnia, not to Tolkien's Middle-earth.

   The episode in question is named ALLEGORY OF LOVE; I gather it was the first show of the third season. So far as I can tell, it's not yet out on dvd over here or over there, nor on hulu.com. You can see it on youtube.com, if you like (just go to their site and type in "Inspector Lewis" and "Allegory of Love").  I saw it when it was broadcast on PBS. It's interesting for featuring a pseudo-Pullman against a background of Lewis & Tolkien, but ends with firmly and rather smugly repudiating readers of fantasy as shallow escapists incapable of dealing with the real world.

   Hope this helps.

--John R.




On Oct 3, 2010, at 8:14 AM, Cole Matson wrote:
Figured I'd call upon the minds of the masses.

I was sitting in the Eagle & Child this afternoon, and I overheard a customer asking the bartender if she knew the name of a local pub he had heard of that contained a sword that had some relation to Tolkien. Neither the bartender nor I had any idea what he was talking about, and since we loathe not being able to answer Inklings-related pub questions, we're trying to find out. Google has been no help. Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Cole Matson


#21488 From: "Wayne G. Hammond" <Wayne.G.Hammond@...>
Date: Mon Oct 4, 2010 3:25 am
Subject: Re: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?
wghammond2
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The episode in question is named ALLEGORY OF LOVE; I gather it was the first show of the third season. So far as I can tell, it's not yet out on dvd over here or over there, nor on hulu.com.

It's part of the U.K. Series Three DVD set, and part of the U.S. Series Two DVD set, both issued in 2009. The U.S. versions of the episodes are said to be cut by about ten minutes each.

Wayne


#21489 From: John Rateliff <sacnoth@...>
Date: Mon Oct 4, 2010 4:38 am
Subject: Darrell Martin
sacnoth32
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Does anyone on this list have contact information for Darrell Martin? I'm going
to be in the Wheaton area later this month and wanted to get-together with him
if he still lives in those parts.

--John R.

#21490 From: "icelofangeln" <solicitr@...>
Date: Mon Oct 4, 2010 2:52 pm
Subject: Re: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?
icelofangeln
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Although I have no doubt that the Inspector Morse explanation is the correct
one, it is the case that Lewis kept what was described as a "cavalry sabre" in
his umbrella-stand at Magdalen (I suspect the "sabre" was in actuality Warnie's
Army dress sword).

#21491 From: John Rateliff <sacnoth@...>
Date: Mon Oct 4, 2010 11:20 pm
Subject: Re: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?
sacnoth32
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On Oct 3, 2010, at 8:25 PM, Wayne G. Hammond wrote:
> It's part of the U.K. Series Three DVD set, and part of the U.S. Series Two
DVD set, both issued in 2009. The U.S. versions of the episodes are said to be
cut by about ten minutes each.

Ah! Thanks for clarifying that.


On Oct 4, 2010, at 7:52 AM, icelofangeln wrote:
> Although I have no doubt that the Inspector Morse explanation is the correct
one, it is the case that Lewis kept what was described as a "cavalry sabre" in
his umbrella-stand at Magdalen (I suspect the "sabre" was in actuality Warnie's
Army dress sword).

That sounds like a good guess. I don't take the story of Lewis dueling with a
student too seriously, but if there was a sword in Lewis's room to have inspired
the legend that's a plausible explanation for why.

--JDR
current reading: JRRT's SANCTIFYING MYTH, by Birzer [2002]
current audiobook: THE BOOK OF EZEKIEL

#21492 From: dale nelson <extollager2006@...>
Date: Mon Oct 4, 2010 11:53 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?
extollager2006
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Do you have a source for that, by the way?

I wonder if this sword was an ornamental thing, like the one that caught my fancy in a second-hand store when I was a kid.  (I secured the sword for $5 and my bike!)

Dale Nelson



From: icelofangeln <solicitr@...>
To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, October 4, 2010 9:52:37 AM
Subject: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?

 


Although I have no doubt that the Inspector Morse explanation is the correct one, it is the case that Lewis kept what was described as a "cavalry sabre" in his umbrella-stand at Magdalen (I suspect the "sabre" was in actuality Warnie's Army dress sword).



#21493 From: "jef.murray" <jef.murray@...>
Date: Tue Oct 5, 2010 12:49 pm
Subject: Mystical Realms Newsletter for October, 2010
jef.murray
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Greetings!

And welcome to my newsletter for October, 2010! Please feel free to forward this
to anyone you think would be interested in keeping up with me! To receive these
newsletters regularly, please drop me an email or subscribe online from my
website (http://www.JefMurray.com ) or at:
http://groups.google.com/group/Mystical_Realms . Notices of events and items of
interest are at the bottom of this email.


Ponderings ==============

After the meal, the revelers gathered around the blazing hearth to enjoy the
pleasure of new friendships and the renewal of old ones. They were basking in
the light of the Yule log and in the warmth of brandy after the Christmas Day
feast when some called for a Christmas tale. Brother Aran, who was by far the
most versed among them in ancient songs and lore, was closely pressed, and after
some coaxing, he agreed to entertain them.

"Let me think," he said. "I've heard so many wondrous tales over the years, as
have others among us." Here he paused and glanced up at Father Hildebrandt. "But
here's one I've rarely shared, and I daresay very few of you are likely to have
heard it before, at least the full tale."

"You've all encountered the story of the Fourth Wise Man, have you not?" he
asked. Many of them nodded in assent. "Well, in that tale, there was a fourth
king who sought to attend the nativity of Christ, but who lost his way and
instead spent his fortune on those in need whom he encountered on his journey.
And in that way, he came to know Christ in the poor, even though he never saw
the child Jesus with his own eyes. But, here's a more ancient tale, and one that
was told in various forms from the earliest days of Christianity.

"It seems that there were four wise men: Balthasar of Arabia, Melchior of
Persia, and Gaspar of India were the three best known to us. But the fourth was
named Mazadân, and he came from the British Isles. He was a Druid, and like the
others, he had watched the stars and had seen that some great movement of God's
grace was in motion. Mazadân was of an ancient race, and some said he had fairy
blood flowing in his veins. So, he had lived for many ages of men without aging
at all; and in his lengthening years, he learned much about the nature of man
and about his foibles and weaknesses.

"It was the autumn of the year when he had first observed the star in the east,
and the leaves were blazing gold and crimson in the highlands, when Mazadân
began his long trek through the forests of northern Europe and sought passage to
the land of Judea.

"Because Mazadân was a hermit and a prophet, he ruled no lands and had no
treasure to bring to the Christ child. But he rendezvoused with the other Magi
before they sought audience with King Herod. And, being subtle and wise in the
ways of men, Mazadân tarried at the court of Herod after the other Magi had
departed: long enough to see clearly the king's duplicity. That is, despite
Herod's outward show of wishing to pay homage to the child himself, he in fact
sought him so that this new threat to his own sovereignty might be removed
speedily and ruthlessly.

"Armed with this knowledge, Mazadân removed from Herod's court and followed in
the footsteps of the other Magi, arriving at Bethlehem several nights after the
three kings had departed. And when he arrived, he prostrated himself before Mary
and Joseph and told them that God had sent him to guard and protect the child,
and he warned them about Herod.

"So it came to pass that Mazadân helped the Holy Family to escape from Judea
into Egypt and to avoid the slaughter of the Innocents that Herod brought down
upon all of the young children of his realm. And Mazadân became as a cherished
uncle to Jesus, and later, a cousin.

"For Mazadân, despite his many years, had the appearance of a man in his late
youth or early middle years. And, as Jesus grew to manhood, Mazadân remained
just as he had been, so that when Christ took up His ministry, Mazadân even
appeared to be the younger of the two. By that time, Mazadân had taken unto
himself all the habits and rituals of the Jews, and so was accepted among Jesus'
kin as one of their own. And even as Jesus gathered His apostles, Mazadân became
one of them, appearing the youngest but being, in fact, the eldest of them all.
And he took the name of John, and because he had been known and loved by Christ
for all of the Savior's days, he was called by Jesus "the beloved."

"Much of what we know about the apostle John comes from his own gospel, and of
course it was always the most prophetic and the richest of the four gospels,
even as Mazadân was wiser and could see farther into the future than the other
followers of Christ; except perhaps for Paul, whom Mazadân also came to love.
But Paul came later, after the Crucifixion and the Resurrection. And it was not
in vain that Christ placed the care of his mother into the hands of Mazadân at
the foot of the cross; He knew that Mazadân would protect and honour Mary, even
as he had been His own guardian ever since His infancy.

"We know of Mazadân's writing of the gospel of St. John, but he would not call
himself by that name or by his true name, even in his own book; rather, he
refers to himself simply as "the beloved disciple". Historians also tell us that
it was a different John who wrote the book of the Apocalypse, but it was not so.
Mazadân was John of Patmos just as he was John the Apostle. And he wrote that
second book as a result of his own revelations from God after the Assumption of
Mary; because by then, and as a result of his long years in the company of our
Lord and of the Blessed Virgin, he had grown in spiritual stature and in favor
with God, and his prophetic vision had grown keen.

"But what became of Mazadân after writing his Revelation? Here the thread of his
tale gets tangled, because this was the time of the weakening and collapse of
the Roman Empire and of the long darkness of the ages that followed it. Medieval
myth puts Mazadân back in the British Isles during the time of the historic King
Arthur, and in some cases he is said to have been a member of Arthur's Round
Table. Other tales make him out to have been the knight Parcival, or Ambrosius
Aurelianus, or even the great hero of the north, Sigurd, who slew the dragon
Fafnir. Still others claim that Mazadân became an itinerant priest and wanderer
through the bitter lands and ages that led up to the plague years…the "Wandering
Jew" named Cartophilus who is to bear witness to Christ unto the final days of
this earth.

"But nowhere is Mazadân's death ever recorded, nor is there any suggestion that
Christ's words to St. Peter in Chapter 21 of St. John's gospel referenced anyone
other than Mazadân. The passage reads thus:

"So Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, 'Lord, and what is to become of this man?'
Jesus said to him, 'If I wish for him to remain until I return, what is that to
you? Follow Me!' "

             o o o

Brother Aran ceased speaking. There was a long silence in the room as the
listeners pondered his tale.

"So, does this mean", said Charles, "that Mazadân could still be alive, living
among us even today?"

"So it would seem," said Brother Aran, leaning back in his chair.

"But if he never ages, he could be anyone, could he not?"

"Certainly," said Brother Aran. "He could even be someone in this very room."

There was a moment of embarrassed silence as the revelers glanced nervously
about at each other.

"But, Brother Aran," said Father Hildebrandt, "if that were truly so, there
would be nothing to fear, would there? Surely, as you say, this Mazadân was sent
as a guardian and protector of the Holy Child, correct?"

"Yes, Father Abbott."

"Anyone sent by God in such a capacity could not be evil, and his presence would
be more than welcome to us, especially in dark days such as these."

"Indeed, Father Abbott, that is so," said Brother Aran.

"But what do you make of this tale, Brother Azarias?" asked Charles, turning to
their mysterious companion. "Do you think any of it could possibly be true?"

Azarias glanced at the faces of those around the fire and smiled. "I make of it
an intriguing legend. But, I fear we would only know the truth of the tale by
asking Mazadân himself."

"And how would you go about doing that?" asked Charles. "Where would you go
looking for Mazadân, if you wished to find him?"

Azarias looked at Charles thoughtfully. Then he said, gently, "I don't believe
you would ever be able to find Mazadân...unless he wished to be found. And I
believe he would only wish to be found if some grave peril was at hand: one that
called for him to show himself forth as the one living and irrefutable witness
to the events of the Resurrection; or that called for knowledge or wisdom such
as only he had attained over the centuries. He would never reveal himself
lightly; for it would be a terrible shock to the people of these times to come
to know that such a one as he existed in their midst."

The revelers became silent and thoughtful. Gazing into the fire, each of them
could hear the wind roaring outside the windows of the hall; and in the rustling
of skeletal leaves against glass panes, the enormity of the time encompassed by
Brother Aran's tale seemed a palpable and mysterious presence in the fire lit
room. Thus deep in contemplation, none noticed the glance that passed between
Azarias and Father Hildebrandt, nor the flicker of a smile on the latter's face.


Prospects ===================

	 It is apparently going to be a big media autumn for me, as I will have a lot of
my work appearing in two upcoming magazine issues:

First, the November/December 2010 issue of the St. Austin Review (StAR) features
one of my paintings ("Melkor") on its cover, plus a two-page spread of some of
my latest paintings and a short article of mine within. The issue in general
focuses on apocalyptic visions, particularly as seen in science fiction. Please
check out the latest issue by going to the StAR website at
http://www.staustinreview.com/ .

Second, the next issue of Gilbert Magazine (see http://www.gilbertmagazine.com/
) is the art issue, and in addition to including a couple of my dragonish
paintings ("The Repentant Dragon" and "Pensive Dragon"), there will be an
interview with me and fellow artist Tim Jones, plus (possibly!) a short humorous
tale of mine.

	 The folks who brought you the Festival in the Shire in Wales this last August
(see www.FestivalintheShire.com) will be holding a new exhibit of Middle-earth
themed paintings and prints in Leiden, Holland in November. This event will be
held from Thursday, November 11 at 10:00am - November 14 at 4:00pm at Utrechtse
Jaagpad 2, Leiden, Holland, this exhibition will features works by Rodney
Matthews, Paul Raymond Gregory, Roger Garland, Ruth Lacon, Steve Walsh, Sue
Wookey, Ivan Cavini and myself. You can find more information on Facebook by
searching on "Festival in the Shire- Free Preview Exhibition".

	 There are two new Tolkien-themed calendars that are either now available or
soon will be. Both feature some of my work, as well as that of many other
notable artists:

The 30th Anniversary 2011 Beyond Bree calendar is available at
http://www.cep.unt.edu/bree/Flyer02.pdf . This special calendar features work by
Sylvia Hunnewell, Ted Nasmith, and many others; it focuses on the Istari…the
wizards of Middle-earth.

The 10th Anniversary 2011 Northeaster Tolkien Society calendar is available from
http://herenistarionnets.blogspot.com/p/nets-calendar.html . This calendar
features the art of Anke Eissman, Sue Wookey, and myself.

	 The online SF Fanzine "Starship Sofa", Volume 1 of which was a winner of a 2010
Hugo Award, is preparing to release Volume 2 on October 10, 2010. I was
privileged to illustrate a tale that will be included, written by Jason Sanford,
entitled " Into the Depths of Illuminated Seas". It is a surpassingly strange
tale about pirates (!) and a lass who can foretell the deaths of all of the
sailors in her port town. You can learn more about this Fanzine at
http://www.starshipsofa.com/ .

	 Illustrator-signed editions of The Magic Ring: Deluxe Illustrated Edition, by
the Baron de la Motte Fouqué, is now  available to folks in the U.S., Canada,
and the UK. You can purchase directly from my website at www.JefMurray.com
(click on the "Books" button on the left of the page). I was privileged to have
been asked to develop the cover and interior illustrations for this new edition,
and it is one that finally presents this tale in a format in keeping with its
magical and epic themes. Described as a cross between "The Lord of the Rings"
and "Ivanhoe", this is a story that will keep you on the edge of your seat, and
one that will appeal to all ages of folk who love chivalry, enchantment, and
romance. You can keep up to date on the book's reception on the Facebook page
entitled "The Magic Ring", or at Valancourt's website.

	 A new EWTN TV special is being prepared on J.R.R. Tolkien. Featuring Joseph
Pearce, this production will also include dozens of my illustrations of
Tolkien's world. Stay tuned for details on when this will air….

	 For folks interested in my original paintings and sketches, please take a look
at the ADC Art and Books online catalog at www.adcbooks.co.uk. It features
Tolkien-themed works by Ted Nasmith, Peter Pracownik, and myself. In addition,
you'll find collectible items (e.g. Black & White Ogre Country: The Lost Tales
of Hilary Tolkien) and rare books featured in the catalog and on the website.

#21494 From: Cole Matson <ccematson@...>
Date: Tue Oct 5, 2010 6:03 pm
Subject: Re: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?
ncmnyu
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Wow, you guys are good. Thanks for that. I'm pretty sure the Lewis episode explains the tourist's inquiry. (And I now want to see it.) I'll let the barkeep know next time I drop into the E&C.

Thanks!

Cole

#21495 From: John Rateliff <sacnoth@...>
Date: Tue Oct 5, 2010 5:44 am
Subject: Re: Re: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?
sacnoth32
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On Oct 4, 2010, at 4:53 PM, dale nelson wrote:
Do you have a source for that, by the way?

Can't remember offhand where I've read this, but it's from a pretty well-known source. I'll try to remember to flag it next time I I come across it.

Not that it's relevant, but it did just occur to me that we do know of one Inkling who kept a ceremonial sword in his office: Charles Williams. He used it for rituals with his disciples who came to visit him (cf. LETTERS TO LALANGE). I wonder what ever became of it -- did it pass back to his family (widow & son), or did some other member of his order inherit it?

--John R.




#21496 From: "Mike Foster" <mafoster@...>
Date: Tue Oct 5, 2010 6:25 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?
mafoster@...
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With all these Lewises, it's hard to tell Jack and the Detective Inspector apart, much less Meriwether.
 
I too recall the anecdote about Lewis pulling out a sword--could it've been Warnie's?--and threatening a student.  But is it true?
 
Mike

Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 12:44 AM
Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?

 


On Oct 4, 2010, at 4:53 PM, dale nelson wrote:
Do you have a source for that, by the way?

Can't remember offhand where I've read this, but it's from a pretty well-known source. I'll try to remember to flag it next time I I come across it.

Not that it's relevant, but it did just occur to me that we do know of one Inkling who kept a ceremonial sword in his office: Charles Williams. He used it for rituals with his disciples who came to visit him (cf. LETTERS TO LALANGE). I wonder what ever became of it -- did it pass back to his family (widow & son), or did some other member of his order inherit it?

--John R.





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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

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__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5506 (20101005) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

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#21497 From: dale nelson <extollager2006@...>
Date: Tue Oct 5, 2010 7:47 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?
extollager2006
Send Email Send Email
 
I've no idea, but wouldn't it have been something if the aged Arthur Machen had received it and then passed it to -- ?



From: John Rateliff <sacnoth@...>
To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, October 5, 2010 12:44:02 AM
Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?

 


On Oct 4, 2010, at 4:53 PM, dale nelson wrote:
Do you have a source for that, by the way?

Can't remember offhand where I've read this, but it's from a pretty well-known source. I'll try to remember to flag it next time I I come across it.

Not that it's relevant, but it did just occur to me that we do know of one Inkling who kept a ceremonial sword in his office: Charles Williams. He used it for rituals with his disciples who came to visit him (cf. LETTERS TO LALANGE). I wonder what ever became of it -- did it pass back to his family (widow & son), or did some other member of his order inherit it?

--John R.





#21498 From: "Mike Foster" <mafoster@...>
Date: Tue Oct 5, 2010 8:08 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?
mafoster@...
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And now...after many years...it's come down to...Jimmy Page.
 
Mike

Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?

 

I've no idea, but wouldn't it have been something if the aged Arthur Machen had received it and then passed it to -- ?



From: John Rateliff <sacnoth@...>
To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, October 5, 2010 12:44:02 AM
Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?

 


On Oct 4, 2010, at 4:53 PM, dale nelson wrote:
Do you have a source for that, by the way?

Can't remember offhand where I've read this, but it's from a pretty well-known source. I'll try to remember to flag it next time I I come across it.

Not that it's relevant, but it did just occur to me that we do know of one Inkling who kept a ceremonial sword in his office: Charles Williams. He used it for rituals with his disciples who came to visit him (cf. LETTERS TO LALANGE). I wonder what ever became of it -- did it pass back to his family (widow & son), or did some other member of his order inherit it?

--John R.






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#21499 From: John Rateliff <sacnoth@...>
Date: Wed Oct 6, 2010 9:20 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?
sacnoth32
Send Email Send Email
 
On Oct 5, 2010, at 12:47 PM, dale nelson wrote:
I've no idea, but wouldn't it have been something if the aged Arthur Machen had received it and then passed it to -- ?

Although he outlived Williams by a year, Machen is unlikely, but his old friend Waite would have been an ideal choice, had he not himself died three years earlier. Williams had been in Watie's Order and had been Waite's choice to succeed him as its leader, but instead left to found his own Order (of the Coinherence). There's an interesting, if brief, discussion of this in G. A. Gilbert's biography of A.E.Waite.

Crowley, in the words of Monty P., would have been Right Out.


On Oct 5, 2010, at 11.25 AM, Mike Foster wrote:
With all these Lewises, it's hard to tell Jack and the Detective Inspector apart, much less Meriwether.

That's easy: Meriwether is the one who killed himself, CSL is the one relevant to this list, and Inspector is a sidekick given his own (tv-only) sequel-series.

--John R.








#21500 From: "Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@...>
Date: Wed Oct 6, 2010 9:26 pm
Subject: Table of Contents -- Fall/Winter 2010 Mythlore
jbcroft73019
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I think this may have bounced due to some trouble I was having with my Yahoo account when I first sent it.  In any case, this issue went to the printer today!
 
Janet Brennan Croft
 
Coming up in the next issue of Mythlore, which will be out in mid-October:
 
Dwarves, Spiders, and Murky Woods: J.R.R. Tolkien’s Wonderful Web of Words
        Jason Fisher
Let Us Now Praise Famous Orcs: Simple Humanity in Tolkien’s Inhuman Creatures
Robert T. Tally, Jr.
Myth-Remaking in the Shadow of Vergil: The Captive(-ated) Voice of Ursula K. Le Guin’s Lavinia
        T.S. Miller
Corrupting Beauty: Rape Narrative in The Silmarillion
        Lynn Whitaker
The Company They Didn’t Keep: Collaborative Women in the Letters of C.S. Lewis
        Sam McBride
Master of Doom by Doom Mastered: Heroism, Fate, and Death in The Children of Húrin
        Jesse Mitchell
Germanic Fate and Doom in J.R.R. Tolkien’s The Silmarillion
        Richard J. Whitt
The Thread on Which Doom Hangs: Free Will, Disobedience, and Eucatastrophe in Tolkien’s Middle-earth
        Janet Brennan Croft
Simbelmynë: Mortality and Memory in Middle-earth
        William H. Stoddard
 
And reviews of
Tolkien, Race and Cultural History, by Dimitra Fimi;
Charles Williams and his Contemporaries, by Suzanne Bray and Richard Sturch;
In the Land of Invented Languages by Arika Okrent;
Millennial Mythmaking: Essays on the Power of Science Fiction and Fantasy Literature, edited by John Perlich and David Whitt;
Middle-earth Minstrel: Essays on Music in Tolkien, edited by Bradford Lee Eden;
Harry Potter and Imagination: The Way Between Two Worlds, by Travis Prinzi;
Fastitocalon 1.1;
Theodor SEUSS Geisel by Donald E. Pease.
 
Getting down to the wire, but -- there’s still time to get your subscriptions in if you do it right now!
 
 

#21501 From: "jef.murray" <jef.murray@...>
Date: Thu Oct 7, 2010 12:42 pm
Subject: Silver Leaves 4 Call for Submissions....
jef.murray
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I'm posting this for the good folks at the
White Tree Fund:

- - - - -

Hello all,

Would you mind helping spread the word to fellow Tolkien/Lewis/high fantasy fans
with a reminder of the October 15th deadline for submissions to Silver Leaves
Issue 4, themed on dragons? All the info you need is attached. Also, we are
flexible: if someone needs more time, they may email us. And if you have a
website, we'd really appreciate a mention there. Feel free to use the attachment
in whatever way works best.

Thanks so much!

Jo-Anna J

SL journal team

- - - - - - - -
Thank you to everyone for the encouraging and supportive responses to Silver
Leaves Issue 3: Tolkien/Fantasy Art and Artists! Please join us on Facebook and
give us your feedback and thoughts on this collectible issue. Let us know what
your ideal Smaug would be like for The Hobbit movies or click on the
'Discussions' tab and tell us about your favourite dragon (or dragons, the more
the merrier!), in or outside of Middle-earth. We'll be printing your responses
in Issue 4!

We would like to remind our friends that the Silver Leaves Issue 4 Submissions
Call deadline is October 15th. Please see our guidelines for specific
information on submissions: http://www.whitetreefund.org/sl_submissions.html. If
time beyond the deadline is needed, feel free to contact the SL journal team on
FB or write Silver.Leaves.Journal@....

•    Coming soon … Preview video for Issue 3:
http://www.youtube.com/user/thewhitetreefund

•    Join our Facebook fan page:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Silver-Leaves-The-Journal-of-the-White-Tree-Fund/1\
14978995206813

•    Follow us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/Silver_Leaves

#21502 From: John Rateliff <sacnoth@...>
Date: Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:47 pm
Subject: religious interpretations of Tolkien
sacnoth32
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi all.
    An open question for the group: what among the many books on Tolkien &
religion wd you recommend, and why? I have a backlog of these I picked up in the
last decade or so (there seems to have been a flood of them around 2002-2003)
and am only now getting around to reading; some suggestions of where to jump
into the pile wd be welcome.
    Thanks.
    --John R.

#21503 From: dale nelson <extollager2006@...>
Date: Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:20 pm
Subject: Re: religious interpretations of Tolkien
extollager2006
Send Email Send Email
 
Stratford Caldecott's book, called something like Secret Fire, is worth reading, certainly.

Dale


From: John Rateliff <sacnoth@...>
To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, October 12, 2010 8:47:31 AM
Subject: [mythsoc] religious interpretations of Tolkien

 

Hi all.
An open question for the group: what among the many books on Tolkien & religion wd you recommend, and why? I have a backlog of these I picked up in the last decade or so (there seems to have been a flood of them around 2002-2003) and am only now getting around to reading; some suggestions of where to jump into the pile wd be welcome.
Thanks.
--John R.



#21504 From: "Mike Foster" <mafoster@...>
Date: Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:34 pm
Subject: Re: religious interpretations of Tolkien
mafoster@...
Send Email Send Email
 
Tolkien & Chesterton as Theologians, while split in its focus, is certainly one of the better ones I've read this century.
 
The fact that I perennially invert the names in the title shows my preference.
 
See below.  I fear I enjoyed reading Caldecott but admired him rather less.  My hope is that Tolkien and the Bible will be literary, rather than sectarian or dogmatic.
 

Chesterton and Tolkien as Theologians: The Fantasy of the Real by Alison Milbank (London, New York: T&T Clark, 2009); 200 pages; $??.?? (paper)

            A convincing argument may be made that the early twenty-first century is a new golden age of Tolkien criticism.

            Along with recent and noteworthy works by long-established masters of scholarship like Verlyn Flieger, Marjorie Burns, Douglas A. Anderson, Tom Shippey, Jane Chance, and Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull, outstanding book-length studies by “new” writers like John Garth, John D. Rateliff,  and Diana Pavlac-Glyer have swelled the Middle-earth scholar’s bookshelves with more absolutely essential tomes.

            To the forefront of that honor roll, add Alison Milbank’s magnificent Chesterton and Tolkien as Theologians. Prodigious and polymathic in its allusions to fiction, folklore, theology, philosophy, economics, papal encyclicals, and literary criticism, it is rooted deeply in insightful comprehension of the works of both authors. It weaves Elvish ropes linking the two together in ways few—if any—other critical works have done.

            Of course, writing an opus like this one is fraught with perils for those who would link Faerie to the Cathedral. “Therein lies the problem with books of this sort,” wrote this reviewer of Stratford Caldecott’s 2005 volume The Power of the Ring: The Spiritual Vision behind The Lord of the Rings. “The reader perforce has two subjects to weigh and balance: literary scholarship and theological interpretation.”

            This long and narrow bridge over the abyss Dr. Milbank has crossed sure-footedly. A lecturer at the University of Nottingham, UK, she describes herself as “a literary scholar of the Victorian period and the Gothic novel, with interests in all manner of non-realist fiction: fantasy, horror, and mystery. I am also an Anglican priest.”

            As one who has written and spoken on the spiritual links between the Shire and the Flying Inn, taught university classes linking the two writers (as she has), and discussed Chesterton’s influence on Tolkien with Priscilla Tolkien and George Sayer, among others, this reviewer was impressed  from the first page of the preface, which sets forth the order of the book, to the conclusion wherein Dr. Milbank looks back lucidly on her book in a fine finale linking Father Christmas, Santa Claus, and Tom Bombadil.

            By only the second page, which conjoins Tolkien’s greatest tale to Welshman David Jones’ “wartime epic, In Parenthesis, juxtaposing ordinary soldier talk of a range of periods with mythic tales in order to give heroism and significance to the common people,” (ix) the power and the glory of this study is foretold, and, like all foretellings in Tolkien and Chesterton, the prophecy is fulfilled.

            One virtue of this work is the author’s mastery of existing Chesterton and, especially, Tolkien criticism. She stands tall and sees far because she stands on the giants’ shoulders.

            Likewise, her understanding of Dante provides a connection between her subjects and his Divine Comedy. Her small “c” catholic incorporation of sources as variegated  as the Pre-Raphaelites, Agatha Christie, E.M. Forster, David Hume, Thomas Aquinas, Eric Gill, Jacques Maritain, Alfred Noyes, Peter Pan, Lob, Rerum Novarum, and J. K. Rowling—all these in the introduction alone—is stunning and superb.

            One annoying but immediate quibble: while the text, typography, editing, and layout are impeccable, the book is bound too tightly. The last words on the left-hand even-numbered pages roll off in the gutter; the spine resists overmuch, and thus annoyingly many words are lost in the crack.

“Making Strange:  The Fantastic,” the first of Prof. Milbank’s five chapters, is the Introit.  Immanuel Kant, Joan Aiken, Phillip Pullman, and Gertrude Stein lead her to this declaration: “We believe in ents, dwarves, etc., because we experience them through hobbit eyes; we believe in the hobbits
because they are our focalizers”  (42).

Throughout, she generously lards her study with fat quotes from Tolkien and Chesterton. Beware the side effect: readers will go clambering up their shelves for The Ball and the Cross and others too long unread.

Her exegesis of the delay at Moria due to the password “Speak, Friend And Enter” sapiently suggests that “Legolas and Gimli had been bickering, and the door gave the example
of the friendship the Fellowship themselves need if they are to complete their task” (46).

The coupling of the risen Gandalf’s reappearance in The Two Towers with Jesus’ two encounters with Mary Magdalene in John 20 and Luke 24 underscores Dr. Milbank’s priestly mastery of scripture.

The second chapter, “The Grotesque,” begins by connecting Rossetti’s and Millais’ religious paintings, and the outcry they evoked to these authors. “Chesterton’s vision of controlling a million  monsters finds a parallel in Tolkien’s attitude towards ‘the wilderness of the dragons’ of the Northern pagan past’
”(60-61). Treebeard gets especial attention as Tolkien’s best grotesque creation, and Dr. Milbank takes her subtle knife to the difference between Tolkien’s text and Peter Jackson’s films.

The dwarves embody “this created action of the grotesque
[they] are short, stone-hard, and fierce, reflected also in their greed for gold and antipathy to trees.” (65). Gimli’s daring but unmaterialistic request for a single hair from Galadriel betokens the coming transcendence of the dwarves. The author might have noticed that in the First Age, Galadriel denied Feanor, the most cunning of the Eldar, a single hair. But, as she says:

“Arabesque elf and grotesque dwarf [rise above] their origins in
friendship and
growth toward understanding of each other’s aesthetic.”

Shelob, Gollum, and Ungoliant draw their due as grotesques.  Though in this journal, Dr. Milbank’s comments on Tolkien are the focus, her alliance of his views to Chesterton’s is well-woven throughout. Her exposition on the artwork of both shines further light on their fictive fellowship. Here, too, the elements of Dante in both are astutely itemized.  Tom Bombadil, who will play a major role in her conclusion, is the final puzzle piece placed.

“Paradox and Riddles,” the third chapter, introduces the second quibble: for, coherent reading, two bookmarks are required: one for text, one for endnotes. Footnotes would have been more felicitous.

Linking Chesterton’s infatuation with paradox to Tolkien’s with the latter, Dr. Milbank notes that Bilbo, Bombadil, and Aragorn are all riddles and riddlers.

Indeed, paradox applies to Frodo and Sam as well. “The true happy ending of the novel lies beyond the pages of the book, and yet is anticipated in moments such as Sam and Frodo’s descent from Mount Doom, when Sam, a true Bunyanesque ‘Hopeful’, leads the lost and broken Frodo to safety” (111).

“Can I thank no one for the birthday present of birth?,” Chesterton’s humble query, begins the fourth chapter, “Fairy Economics: Gift Exchange.” Here this study begins to rise on the wind beneath its wings.

She writes: “For us gift giving belongs to the private realm: we take off the price tag and wrap a commodity in tissue paper to remove it from the world of market-value and exchange; we turn it into a present, and thus restore it to the sacred: we enchant it, as it were” (118). This contrasts with Saruman’s dehumanization of his wage-slave workers in contrast to Beowulf, Belloc, Chesterton, and Tolkien’s economic philosophy of Distributism, hallowed by Pope Leo XIII. Niggle’s eucatastrophe—“It’s a gift!”—joins hands with The Flying Inn’s pub sign: “Beer is freely given under the inn sign from what appears to be a Cana-like never-emptied barrel” (122).

“It is no accident that Niggle’s subject is a tree because trees have been emblematic of the divine gift right back to the Garden of Eden and its Tree of Life” (126-27).  The chapter’s last three pages on Galadriel’s gifts to the Fellowship, with the “binding rite” of the Norse and Anglo-Saxon cup which she performs, brilliantly bind that moment to the tale of the Ring.

The fifth and final chapter, “Fairy Poetics: Make Believe,” wraps this superlative gift in gold and delivers the author’s summary benediction. A tender commentary on Tolkien’s twenty years of Father Christmas letters—will his children’s letters in reply, a gift indeed, ever be published?—harmonizes with Dickens’ Scrooge, Matthew’s Magi chronicle, and Chesterton’s observations about Father Christmas in The Everlasting Man. Dr. Milbank’s identification of Tom Bombadil, a legend looming large throughout this book, with Father Christmas is the perfect Ite, Missa est.

Chesterton and Tolkien as Theologians’ five-page coda of conclusion begins with David Jones “A, a, a, DOMINE DEUS” and ends with this benediction:

“And Tolkien’s ‘other’ world is always in relation to our own, and his fantastic opens a space in which we can imagine and entertain the seemingly impossible in such a way that we can both literally and metaphorically ‘assist in the effoliation and multiple enrichment of creation.’ For it is only through the re-enchantment of the world by our creative visions that we will find the courage and resources to prevent its rape and destruction” (168-69).

Four years ago, in the review of Stratford Caldecott’s The Power of the Ring mentioned above, this reviewer declared:

“Reducing The Lord of the Rings to a Christian allegory similar to C.S. Lewis’ Narnian tales is mistaking a crucial part for the whole. As critics as diverse as Tom Shippey and Joseph Pearce point out, one need not share the author’s faith to cherish his tale.  Many other things are at work in it: Tolkien’s love of trees and loathing of technology, his enjoyment of good food, good friends, good cheer, and good beer, his nostalgia for the ‘little England’ of bygone days, his experiences in the trenches of World War One. Caldecott’s book is colored by viewing all these through the stained-glass lens of faith.”

With all respect to that writer, who Dr. Milbank cites with approbation, in Chesterton and Tolkien as Theologians, Catholicism’s stained-glass becomes clear and bright as the light of Earendel. Through her puissant and polished prose, we can see clearly now.

--Prof. Mike Foster

Metamora, Illinois

 
Mike

Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:20 AM
Subject: Re: [mythsoc] religious interpretations of Tolkien

 

Stratford Caldecott's book, called something like Secret Fire, is worth reading, certainly.

Dale


From: John Rateliff <sacnoth@...>
To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, October 12, 2010 8:47:31 AM
Subject: [mythsoc] religious interpretations of Tolkien

 

Hi all.
An open question for the group: what among the many books on Tolkien & religion wd you recommend, and why? I have a backlog of these I picked up in the last decade or so (there seems to have been a flood of them around 2002-2003) and am only now getting around to reading; some suggestions of where to jump into the pile wd be welcome.
Thanks.
--John R.




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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


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#21505 From: "Beregond, Anders Stenström" <beregond@...>
Date: Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:02 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?
j_beregond
Send Email Send Email
 
John Rateliff wrote:

> Williams had been in Watie's Order and had been
> Waite's choice to succeed him as its leader, but instead left to found
> his own Order (of the Coinherence). There's an interesting, if brief,
> discussion of this in G. A. Gil bert's biography of A.E.Waite.
>
> Crowley, in the words of Monty P., would have been Right Out.

     Speaking of this, has anybody else here read _Heaven's War_, a comic
book with text by Micah Harris and art by Michael Gaydos, in which
Charles Williams, helped by Lewis and Tolkien, stops the evil plans of
Crowley? I found it a lot better than what that description sounds!

	 Chivalrously,

		 Beregond

#21506 From: David Bratman <dbratman@...>
Date: Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:37 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?
dbratman1
Send Email Send Email
 
"Beregond, Anders Stenström" <beregond@...> wrote:

>    Speaking of this, has anybody else here read _Heaven's War_, a comic
>book with text by Micah Harris and art by Michael Gaydos, in which
>Charles Williams, helped by Lewis and Tolkien, stops the evil plans of
>Crowley? I found it a lot better than what that description sounds!

I found it a lot worse than the description sounds.

#21507 From: Jef Murray <jef.murray@...>
Date: Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:25 pm
Subject: (No subject)
jef.murray
Send Email Send Email
 
John,

   Despite a couple of mis-attributions in his text, Peter
Kreeft's "The Philosophy of Tolkien" is, to my mind, a great
overarching treatment of both Tolkien's and Lewis' philosophical
and religious underpinnings. Because it approaches the issues
from a high-level perspective (providing, along the way, a great
map of the primary and secondary issues associated with
classical philosophy, the questions posed and the answers
provided by Tolkien and Lewis), I've always found it
refreshing...and less likely to bog one down than some
treatments by other authors.

       Jef

===================================================================  Mystical
Realms - Exploring the boundaries between worlds.....
         http://www.JefMurray.com
  ===================================================================

#21508 From: "Margaret L. Carter" <mlcvamp@...>
Date: Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:06 pm
Subject: Re: religion in Tolkien
margvamp
Send Email Send Email
 
Doubtless most of you have read Gracia Fay Ellwood's 1970 book GOOD
NEWS FROM TOLKIEN'S MIDDLE EARTH? Amazon has a handful of used copies.

Margaret Carter

#21509 From: Ellen <carnimiriel@...>
Date: Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:08 pm
Subject: Re: Re: religion in Tolkien
wrexali
Send Email Send Email
 
I've been reading these book suggestions with interest, because I'm scheduled to be on a panel at the World Fantasy Convention at the end of the month with the following topic.  Note that I did not have any part in coming up with this topic or its wording:
---
Why is There No Religion in Middle Earth? Lin Carter used to argue about this. Why are there no priests and temples in Tolkien's world? Is it because Tolkien was squeamish about paganism (made up gods) or is there a more profound explanation?
---
For starters, I don't think the question really works as framed.  I don't think one can claim that there is no religion in Middle Earth, so this is one of the first things I'd address.  What I would assume is meant is something more like, "why did the characters in LotR not participate in organized worship?"  I have not read Lin Carter's work but have requested it from my local library.  However, from what I've read I'm not sure how worthwhile it is as a source, since he wrote it well before the publication of The Silmarillion or Tolkien's letters.  Can anyone who has read Lin Carter's "Tolkien: A Look Behind the Lord of the RIngs" comment on this?

My sources I am prepared to discuss are Tolkien's letters, particularly the draft of a letter to Peter Hastings from September 1954 (p. 152 in my edition), the biography by Humphrey Carpenter, and of course LotR and The Silmarillion.  I'm also taking another look at "Morgoth's Ring" because if I recall correctly, there is some relevant information in the section on the Laws and Customs of the Eldar.  It's been a while since I read HoME.

Are there other sources I should check out before the panel?  Of the books suggested on the subject in this thread, is there one in particular that might be useful?  Keep in mind that this is a panel discussion and I'm sure the other panelists will bring some interesting things to the discussion, and I don't have much time between now and then.

Thanks,

Ellen Denham

On 10/14/10 2:06 PM, Margaret L. Carter wrote:
 

Doubtless most of you have read Gracia Fay Ellwood's 1970 book GOOD
NEWS FROM TOLKIEN'S MIDDLE EARTH? Amazon has a handful of used copies.

Margaret Carter


#21510 From: scribbler@...
Date: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:50 am
Subject: Re: Re: religion in Tolkien
scribblerworks
Send Email Send Email
 
If the discussion is launched from Lin Carter's observations, it sort of
loses all force from the beginning.  When his book came out, there was
virtually nothing at all on Tolkien that most people knew of.  I in fact
read it in high school.  From where I am now, I'd say that Carter's
observations are excessively simplistic.  If the only definition of
"religion/faith" in a secondary world is something represented by massive
temples and objects, hierarchies of priests and followers, complicated
rituals - then no, you won't find it in LotR.

But if you look closer: ceremonies of commemoration (such at the Rangers
of Ithilien at sunset - remembering Numenor), the hymn to Elbereth, the
references to the Secret Flame on the bridge of Khazadum, and then the
discussions between Gandalf and Frodo about how Frodo was "meant" to have
the Ring, meant by someone (implied) other than Sauron.  These are all
reflections of some issues of faith as opposed to "structural religion".




>   I've been reading these book suggestions with interest, because I'm
> scheduled to be on a panel at the World Fantasy Convention at the end of
> the month with the following topic.  Note that I did not have any part
> in coming up with this topic or its wording:
> ---
> Why is There No Religion in Middle Earth? Lin Carter used to argue about
> this. Why are there no priests and temples in Tolkien's world? Is it
> because Tolkien was squeamish about paganism (made up gods) or is there
> a more profound explanation?
> ---
> For starters, I don't think the question really works as framed.  I
> don't think one can claim that there is no religion in Middle Earth, so
> this is one of the first things I'd address.  What I would assume is
> meant is something more like, "why did the characters in LotR not
> participate in organized worship?"  I have not read Lin Carter's work
> but have requested it from my local library.  However, from what I've
> read I'm not sure how worthwhile it is as a source, since he wrote it
> well before the publication of The Silmarillion or Tolkien's letters.
> Can anyone who has read Lin Carter's "Tolkien: A Look Behind the Lord of
> the RIngs" comment on this?
>
> My sources I am prepared to discuss are Tolkien's letters, particularly
> the draft of a letter to Peter Hastings from September 1954 (p. 152 in
> my edition), the biography by Humphrey Carpenter, and of course LotR and
> The Silmarillion.  I'm also taking another look at "Morgoth's Ring"
> because if I recall correctly, there is some relevant information in the
> section on the Laws and Customs of the Eldar.  It's been a while since I
> read HoME.
>
> Are there other sources I should check out before the panel?  Of the
> books suggested on the subject in this thread, is there one in
> particular that might be useful?  Keep in mind that this is a panel
> discussion and I'm sure the other panelists will bring some interesting
> things to the discussion, and I don't have much time between now and then.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ellen Denham
>
> On 10/14/10 2:06 PM, Margaret L. Carter wrote:
>>
>> Doubtless most of you have read Gracia Fay Ellwood's 1970 book GOOD
>> NEWS FROM TOLKIEN'S MIDDLE EARTH? Amazon has a handful of used copies.
>>
>> Margaret Carter
>>
>>
>

#21511 From: "Cristina" <camontes_dragon2001@...>
Date: Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:33 am
Subject: Re: religion in Tolkien
camontes_dra...
Send Email Send Email
 
For those interested in religious themes in LOTR, the letters are a good source.

Another source, already mentioned by someone else in this list, is Peter
Kreeft's "Philosophy of Tolkien".  The weakness of that book is that some
details cited from LOTR are inaccurate, but Peter Kreeft's insights are superb. 
I also recommend "Tolkien: Man and Myth" by Joseph Pearce.

There's this other book, "Sanctifying Myth" by Bradley Birzer but reviews of
that book are mixed.  But I mention it because you might want to read it and
decide for yourself whether it helps.

Another book that touches on religious themes in JRRT's writings is "Lord of the
Elves and the Eldils" by Richard Purtill.  I haven't read that book, though, so
I can't comment on it.

--- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, Ellen <carnimiriel@...> wrote:
>
>   I've been reading these book suggestions with interest, because I'm
> scheduled to be on a panel at the World Fantasy Convention at the end of
> the month with the following topic.  Note that I did not have any part
> in coming up with this topic or its wording:
> ---
> Why is There No Religion in Middle Earth? Lin Carter used to argue about
> this. Why are there no priests and temples in Tolkien's world? Is it
> because Tolkien was squeamish about paganism (made up gods) or is there
> a more profound explanation?
> ---
> For starters, I don't think the question really works as framed.  I
> don't think one can claim that there is no religion in Middle Earth, so
> this is one of the first things I'd address.  What I would assume is
> meant is something more like, "why did the characters in LotR not
> participate in organized worship?"  I have not read Lin Carter's work
> but have requested it from my local library.  However, from what I've
> read I'm not sure how worthwhile it is as a source, since he wrote it
> well before the publication of The Silmarillion or Tolkien's letters.
> Can anyone who has read Lin Carter's "Tolkien: A Look Behind the Lord of
> the RIngs" comment on this?
>
> My sources I am prepared to discuss are Tolkien's letters, particularly
> the draft of a letter to Peter Hastings from September 1954 (p. 152 in
> my edition), the biography by Humphrey Carpenter, and of course LotR and
> The Silmarillion.  I'm also taking another look at "Morgoth's Ring"
> because if I recall correctly, there is some relevant information in the
> section on the Laws and Customs of the Eldar.  It's been a while since I
> read HoME.
>
> Are there other sources I should check out before the panel?  Of the
> books suggested on the subject in this thread, is there one in
> particular that might be useful?  Keep in mind that this is a panel
> discussion and I'm sure the other panelists will bring some interesting
> things to the discussion, and I don't have much time between now and then.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ellen Denham
>
> On 10/14/10 2:06 PM, Margaret L. Carter wrote:
> >
> > Doubtless most of you have read Gracia Fay Ellwood's 1970 book GOOD
> > NEWS FROM TOLKIEN'S MIDDLE EARTH? Amazon has a handful of used copies.
> >
> > Margaret Carter
> >
> >
>

#21512 From: "David Bratman" <dbratman@...>
Date: Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:24 am
Subject: Re: Re: religion in Tolkien
dbratman1
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If we're going to respond to Lin Carter - which I am about to do at
considerable length - we need to have at hand what he actually said.

Carter's contentious comments on religion in Tolkien appeared only briefly
in his 1969 book on Tolkien, which was focused on placing LOTR in the
context of the history of fantasy literature, rather than on evaluating
Tolkien's work.  But his 1973 book _Imaginary Worlds_ was a history of
fantasy, and its view of Tolkien was focused on evaluating his achievement
in that context.  LOTR had been so widely praised that Carter felt there was
room to emphasize what he saw as the book's flaws, and one of the things he
said was this: When he writes that "Tolkien's world has no religion in it,"
Iluvatar and the Valar don't count.

"That is not what I am talking about," he writes.  "A religion is much more
than just the presence of an actual god, or gods; it is also an established
canon of inspired writings and an organized priesthood, a system of temples
and shrines, and so on."  Medieval societies of the kind Tolkien used as
models had such an organized religion, he says, and other fantasies inspired
by them have had them to.  Then he gives a long list of examples, from Conan
the Barbarian on up.  "But there is no religion at all in _The Lord of the
Rings_ - no temples, shrines, priests, prayers, amulets, scriptures, ikons,
idols - _nothing!_  None of the many characters, not even the heroic
warriors, so much as swears by his gods.  Obviously because they _have_ no
gods.  Which is simply incredible in a primitive world of wizards and
warriors and walled stone cities."  (Imaginary Worlds, p. 122-24)

The first thing that occurs to me to say in response to this is, "By
Elbereth and Luthien the Fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!"
which is what Frodo says to the Nazgul at the Ford of Bruinen.  Luthien, or
even Elbereth, may not technically be gods, but from a Catholic author they
are definitely serving the function of angels or saints in this context.
Anyway, so much for characters not swearing by them.  There are other
examples; this one is particularly memorable.

Secondly, Carter has a rather limited idea of what an organized religion
requires.  The medieval Norse, for instance, did not have any canon of
inspired writings that we know of.  Their legends and poems about the gods
and heroes were neither canonized nor considered sacred texts the way we
consider the Bible.  The Jews, after the fall of the Temple, simply
abandoned the heriditary priesthood that had served them before that; even
today, rabbis are not really "clergy" in the sense that Christians use that
word; a rabbi is a learned man, not a priest.  Some Asian religions, I
believe, do without temples and shrines, and the diaspora Jews also rank low
on that scale.

The peoples of Middle-earth, however, do have some of the "and so on" which
Carter doesn't enumerate.  If they don't have a canonized scripture, they do
have the kind of stories of the gods and heroes of the past that customarily
appear in scriptures, even a creation myth (though Carter didn't have access
to this one, as it first appeared in _The Silmarillion_ which hadn't been
published when he wrote).  They have some rituals, notably the moment of
silence before eating that Faramir and his men perform at Henneth Annun.
This, Faramir explains, is a gesture of respect towards Eldamar and Valinor,
so they also have a holy place.  They have funerary customs and respect the
dead, a common religious practice.  And, as Carter would say, so on.

What they have more than any of this, however, are aspects of religion that
are not dreamt of in Carter's philosophy.  These are the moral and spiritual
content of religious belief, which underlie every action the admirable
characters take, and indeed drive the whole plot, because it is a spiritual
concern to rid the world of an evil menace, and not a practical
consideration to defeat the bad guy in the black hat, that inspires the
decision to destroy the Ring, rather than - as practical men like Boromir
would prefer - use it.  I hardly need to go into this here, as so many
authors have done so brilliantly.  The best source for this purpose is
Richard Purtill's _Lord of the Elves and Eldils_, because like Carter he was
writing before _The Silmarillion_ and proves his case, rather dazzlingly,
from LOTR alone.  (Ellwood's _Good News from Middle-earth_, the other
pre-Silmarillion religious study of Tolkien, is a hunt for Christ figures
and new-age woo-woo, and even if you want such things, would not be suitable
for countering Carter.)  Of more recent books on Tolkien's religious
dimension that consider the posthumous writings, I'd say the best ones which
still focus mostly on LOTR are _The Battle for Middle-earth_ by Fleming
Rutledge and _Following Gandalf_ by Matthew Dickerson.  (The Birzer and
Caldecott books mentioned by others are OK, but these are much better.)

So the answer to Carter is that he's framed his question wrongly - what
Tolkien lacks is not religion, it's colorful religious trappings - and even
taken as Carter frames it, his charge is not entirely true.  But
nevertheless, his observations are not entirely hallucinatory, so we can
also raise the questions of whether what he sees is, as he claims, "simply
incredible," and of why Tolkien writes it this way.  But these are further
observations on the topic, not directly answers to Carter, because they
attempt only to explain the case; they don't answer it.

From an external, author-based perspective, we can say that Tolkien couldn't
have his pre-Christian characters be Christians, for obvious chronological
reasons, but he didn't want to have them worshipping false gods, so he made
them the virtuous pagans of (mostly hypothetical) Christian theology.  Some
of the authors on religion in Tolkien go into this point.

From an internal, character-based perspective, though, there's an answer so
breath-taking that, again, it is not dreamt of in Carter's philosophy.  The
reason his pagan warriors don't worship false gods is that, through the
Elves, and they through the Valar, have unfiltered access to the truth about
the spiritual universe.  (The truth as Tolkien sees it, of course, but as an
author he has the right to make his Catholic theology the unfettered truth
within his own fiction.)  They don't need false gods; they have the real
God.  They don't need priests and rituals and so on; they have a closeness
to the divine that few today are fortunate enough to experience.  That
palpable sense is part of what makes LOTR such an inspiring book.

That's what I would say if I were on Ellen's panel, and I hope it helps.

David Bratman

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