I like Tepper, but haven't read them all, nor even heard of _Dream Tree_.
Waht can I say, I'm out of the flow.  Often her stuff is kinda raw to read,
and then haunting despite itself.  I found that especially true of, I think
they were called _Shadow's End_ (I don't think that's quite right, the one,
ew I can't even describe it), and _Rage of Angels_.  Titles are probably
close and not perfect.  Also _The Gate to Women's Country_ was interesting
and so was the Rise and Fall one.  Sorry for the vague titles....  She has
her own mythos, even if it rubs us the wrong way.  And I loved _Beauty_, read
it too many years ago to remember the details.

So, tell us about her appearance at the Con, don't be such a tease...

What was the one, either Tepper or maybe McKillip or ? about the girl who
was, sorry, yes, raped by her father, then goes to live in the wilderness
wtih her hound and eventually triumphs as a quasi-myth-fulfilling woman?
That had some wonderful moments.

Getting a little off the mythopoeic route aren't we, and can't be helped
right?  Some kinda more uplifting books, with horses in them for those who
like horses, are _A Wind in Cairo_ by I forget whom, and then _The Heavenly
Horse from the Outermost West_ and its sequel _Piper at the Gate_ by I
believe someone Stanton?

I love to see all these titles being discussed, and sorry my returns are so
fuzzy.  Most of my library is still in the attic (although most of the
Celtic/Welsh stuff is now down here, still in boxes but able to be dug
through to look things up).  Currently I'm terribly nostalgic over the
endless reading time of summers when I was younger.  And when the kids get
older I hope to read again... if I remember how, LOL

Lizzie

Fellow Listmembers:

eGroups/Onelist is merging once again--with Yahoo (yes, eGroups and Onelist
just merged on April 1). The following FAQ was sent to confirm that there
will not be significant changes. (If there are significant changes, I'll
notify the lists as soon as I can.)

Those uninterested in the details may delete this message now. :)

Joan
----- Forwarded Message Starts Here -----

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 19:37:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Merger FAQ

Hi everyone,

The FAQ, as promised, has been posted to
http://www.egroups.com/local/news.html

For our non-Web users, I've copied the text below (sans formatting).

------
Frequently Asked Questions

Q. Why did this merger happen? How will moderators and members benefit
from the new service?
A. eGroups was created to offer the world's best email groups. Thanks to
our loyal members and a team of great people, we built a service hosting
over 800,000 groups used by more than 17 million members.

By joining the Yahoo family of services, we will enhance and expand our
current groups, and introduce our unique communication tools to millions
of new users around the world. Once our services merge, we expect our
members and moderators will benefit in many ways:

- Access to a variety of group enhancements
- A greater selection of new groups to join
- A larger audience for existing groups
- More services for our international members

------
Q. Will eGroups continue to offer free email group services?
A. Yes! eGroups and Yahoo are committed to offering a wide selection of
free Internet services. We expect to continue offering free services, at
no charge to moderators or members, during and after the merger.

------
Q. When will the eGroups and Yahoo sites be integrated?
A. It will take about two months for the legal transaction to be approved
and completed (late August). After that point, we'll decide what level of
integration offers our members the best service. Your suggestions and
comments will be carefully considered. Integration will not begin until
after the companies are combined, and the integration process is expected
to last for several months.

------
Q. Will there be any changes to the eGroups Terms of Service (TOS)?
A. eGroups is aware of the differences between the Terms of Service
offered to our members, and those offered to users of various Yahoo
properties like Yahoo Clubs and Geocities.

Legal teams from both eGroups and Yahoo are discussing the best way to
resolve these differences. No decision has been made at this point, and
you and your groups are still covered by the eGroups TOS.

------
Q. What will happen to the current eGroups services (email, chat, file
space, calendar, etc.)?

A. No significant changes are planned for the eGroups service until after
the legal transaction is completed. After that, eGroups and Yahoo will
bring the best of both services together. In situations where services
overlap (like Yahoo Calendar and eGroups Calendar), we may choose to
consolidate. If this happens, we will migrate your data whenever possible
and in accordance with our privacy policies.

------
Q. Does this merger mean I have to change my group addresses or
subscription URLs?
A. No. eGroups and Yahoo will maintain your original group email addresses
and Web URL's indefinitely. This means that you do not have to update any
subscription Web pages you may have created.

After the companies are combined, eGroups and Yahoo will evaluate options
for a new system of addresses. However, even if new addresses are created
for your group, the old addresses will continue to be supported.

------
Q. Will there be changes to eGroups policies (adult content, security,
etc.)?
A. eGroups and Yahoo believe that children should not have access to adult
information. Both companies are legally obligated to eliminate content
that violates local, state, federal, and international laws.

Because both companies currently have similar policies and procedures to
cover these situations, we do not anticipate significant changes to our
policies regarding acceptable content. However, changes in applicable law
may require policy changes at any time.

------
Q. Will improvements to eGroups continue while the merger proceeds?
A. Absolutely! eGroups will continue all planned development during the
merger process. This means we will continue to work on new features and
fixes. You may have noticed that we recently revived the Activity logs
feature for groups you moderate.


----- Forwarded Message Ends Here -----
***************************************************
Joan Marie Verba               verba001@...
Mythopoeic Press Secretary, Mythopoeic Society
List Administrator for DocEx, Mythsoc, MNSCBWI and
      MNSCREENW lists
http://www.sff.net/people/Joan.Marie.Verba
****************************************************

----- Original Message -----
From: Berni Phillips <bernip@...>
To: <mythsoc@egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Harry Potter


>
> >From: Stolzi@...
>
> >Officials at Britain's Canterbury Cathedral rejected requests from film
> >giants Warner Brothers to shoot scenes of the upcoming Harry Potter movie
in
> >the historic location -because of the script's pagan imagery. The gothic
> >cathedral was to be the setting for Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and
> >Wizardry but officials were worried the move might offend their
parishioners.
>
> I don't see Hogwarts as gothic.  I see it as more of a Winchester Mystery
> House but even bigger.  (I bet they could film it there!  For those of you
> who don't know of it, it was built by the widow of the Winchester rifle
> maker
> who thought she was being haunted by the ghosts of the Indians killed by
> her husband's guns.  She was evidently told by a psychic that as long as
> she kept building, she wouldn't die (or something like that).  She kept
> carpenters working around the clock for years, so the house is a
> Victorian-era
> hodge-podge and includes things like staircases that lead to nowhere.
It's
> also the setting for Michaela Roessner's _Vanishing Point_.  It's right
here
> in little old San Jose.  Those of you coming to next year's Mythcon in
> Berkeley
> might want to take a trip south (about an hour if it's not commute time)
to
> see
> it.)
>
> Berni


I'll weigh in and say that Winchester House is a neat place.  I went there
while I visted friends out West, and  enjoyed it immensely.  I think the
stained glass window area (they change them every once in a while so all of
it can be displayed) is wonderful.

Wonderful summary of the history,  Berni---some of the structural oddities
also came from the fact that the woman was very short.  There are tiny
stairs that have very long ramps, and very small risers, because she could
not negotiate ordinary stairs.  There were also ordinary steps that led
nowhere.  I particularly liked the glassed in structure on the second floor,
which one had to circle around---and you overlooked nothing below.  It was
built to confuse the ghosts. The long sinks (placed for a short person;  I
think she was 4'10") also stay in my memory.

Hearst Castle could be an interesting locale for some places in Hogwarts
(I'm thinking of some interiors, esp. the medieval dining hall for the
opening dinner), but logistics for filming would take wizards to get the
equipment up there.  It's *really* isolated!   I'm sure there'd be some
marvelous Victorian homes that would work for exteriors.  ---djb.
>
>

At 11:24 PM -0400 6/30/00, David S. Bratman wrote:
>
>As Tolkien is not exactly a "cut to the chase" author either, I suspect
>there is more to Jordan's problem than this.
>


Tolkien's worldview is teleological, and Jordan's is cyclic. Jordan
literally -can't- cut to the chase, because there isn't one, so to
speak.

====================================

sschaper@...
members.delphi.com/sschaper/web/sschaper.html
====================================

----- Original Message -----
From: Mary Kay Kare <kare@...>
To: <mythsoc@egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Recent Fantasy


> Diane Joy Baker wrote:
> >
> > I'm chompin' at the bit for the next installment of Martin's  *Ice and
Fire*
> > series.  When the second one came out, I went to an autographing session
of
> > his in Lexington, and got both the first and second volumes autographed.
I
> > was very grateful that Martin's handlers decided to put some tours in
> > midwastern stores rather than just hugging the coast lines (esp.
> > California).  Some of us readers do exist outside the Golden State, you
> > know!
>
> Err--Martin's handlers?  I don't think you understand how book tours
> are set up.  What usually happens is that the publisher contacts
> bookstores and asks who wants to foot the bill for an appearance by X
> at their store.  It's almost always up to the stores to choose whether
> or not they want someone there.
>
I appreciate the education.  The term "handlers" refers to those people who
contact and arrange bookstore tours on behalf of Martin.  I am assuming that
Martin does not do this himself.  So the "handlers" would be the
blisher.   ---djb.

>
> What was the one, either Tepper or maybe McKillip or ? about the girl who
> was, sorry, yes, raped by her father, then goes to live in the wilderness
> wtih her hound and eventually triumphs as a quasi-myth-fulfilling woman?
> That had some wonderful moments.
>
> Lizzie
>
Lizzie,

You're recollecting Robin McKinley's "Deerskin."  I was greatly moved by
this book when I read it, but I've read several reviews and comments by
people who were "disturbed" or "upset" by the book, especially the violence
perpetrated on the main character which starts things moving.  I don't
consume much violence on TV, in movies or in my reading (I've only seen the
local news on TV 3 or 4 times in the last ten years because I don't need the
aggravation it adds to daily life) so I doubt that I have become
desensitized to it, but I wasn't horrified as some others were.
What did you think?
----------------------------------------
> CLICK HERE AND START SAVING ON LONG DISTANCE BILLS TODAY!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/4125/8/_/505012/_/962448279/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
>

Yes, both the Winchester house and Hearst Castle would be good locations. What
about the resort hotel where The Shining was filmed? From the outside, at least,
that would be impressive.

By the way, if I remember my San Jose history correctly (having been born and
raised there), Mrs. Winchester was in a tower of the house when the San
Francisco earthquake of '06 hit. The tower collapsed, killing her.

The brightly colored paint on the outside of the WH, however, would not be
appropriate. Hogwarts needs to be a dingy gray.

Ted

Diane Joy Baker wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Berni Phillips <bernip@...>
> To: <mythsoc@egroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 7:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Harry Potter
>
> >
> > >From: Stolzi@...
> >
> > >Officials at Britain's Canterbury Cathedral rejected requests from film
> > >giants Warner Brothers to shoot scenes of the upcoming Harry Potter movie
> in
> > >the historic location -because of the script's pagan imagery. The gothic
> > >cathedral was to be the setting for Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and
> > >Wizardry but officials were worried the move might offend their
> parishioners.
> >
> > I don't see Hogwarts as gothic.  I see it as more of a Winchester Mystery
> > House but even bigger.  (I bet they could film it there!  For those of you
> > who don't know of it, it was built by the widow of the Winchester rifle
> > maker
> > who thought she was being haunted by the ghosts of the Indians killed by
> > her husband's guns.  She was evidently told by a psychic that as long as
> > she kept building, she wouldn't die (or something like that).  She kept
> > carpenters working around the clock for years, so the house is a
> > Victorian-era
> > hodge-podge and includes things like staircases that lead to nowhere.
> It's
> > also the setting for Michaela Roessner's _Vanishing Point_.  It's right
> here
> > in little old San Jose.  Those of you coming to next year's Mythcon in
> > Berkeley
> > might want to take a trip south (about an hour if it's not commute time)
> to
> > see
> > it.)
> >
> > Berni
>
> I'll weigh in and say that Winchester House is a neat place.  I went there
> while I visted friends out West, and  enjoyed it immensely.  I think the
> stained glass window area (they change them every once in a while so all of
> it can be displayed) is wonderful.
>
> Wonderful summary of the history,  Berni---some of the structural oddities
> also came from the fact that the woman was very short.  There are tiny
> stairs that have very long ramps, and very small risers, because she could
> not negotiate ordinary stairs.  There were also ordinary steps that led
> nowhere.  I particularly liked the glassed in structure on the second floor,
> which one had to circle around---and you overlooked nothing below.  It was
> built to confuse the ghosts. The long sinks (placed for a short person;  I
> think she was 4'10") also stay in my memory.
>
> Hearst Castle could be an interesting locale for some places in Hogwarts
> (I'm thinking of some interiors, esp. the medieval dining hall for the
> opening dinner), but logistics for filming would take wizards to get the
> equipment up there.  It's *really* isolated!   I'm sure there'd be some
> marvelous Victorian homes that would work for exteriors.  ---djb.
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Lonely? Get Firetalk!
> Free, unlimited calls anywhere in the world.
> Free voice chat on hundreds of topics.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/5477/8/_/505012/_/962458108/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org

--
Dr. Theodore James Sherman, Editor
Mythlore: A Journal of J. R. R. Tolkien, C. S. Lewis, Charles Williams and
Mythopoeic Literature
Box X041, Department of English
Middle Tennessee State University
Murfreesboro, TN  37132
615 898-5836;  FAX 615 898-5098
tsherman@...
tedsherman@...

In a message dated 7/1/00 9:07:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
verba001@... writes:

<< eGroups/Onelist is merging once again--with Yahoo (yes, eGroups and
Onelist
  just merged on April 1). >>

Congratulations on joining the Yahoo/Disney/Microsoft/McDonalds/Coca Cola
family of fine products.  Resistance is futile.  You will be assimilated.

We have noticed that your mailing list is discussing fantasy.  To ensure
uniformity, we would like to remind you that all discussion of fantasy must
involve one of our excellent Disney products.

We are now switching over to an e-mail format that can only be read only on a
Windows system, so be sure that your computer is compatible with this.

We will soon be sending you an e-coupon for a free Coke with the Big Mac
which you enjoy as you read postings from this group.

In a message dated 07/01/2000 10:04:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
sheik@... writes:

<< What did you think? >>
I was horrified at first, especially the miscarriage was gross, but believe
that in the long run it redeemed itself as a work of art.  Hm, and I am
mixing up Robin McKinley's _Beauty_ with Tepper's version.  I don't think
I've read Tepper's.  It's McKinley's version that I remember so fondly.

Lizzie

In a message dated 6/30/00 8:33:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
bernip@... writes:

<< I used to enjoy Tepper a lot but it seems like she's gotten more and more
  embittered over the years.  (And you should have seen her first-ever
  guest appearance at a con at WisCon some years ago.  Yow!) >>


Tepper has an interesting life story.  She was born in 1929.  When she was
fifty, she hadn't published anything except a couple of poems, although she'd
tried to write various things over the years.  She then decided to get
serious.  I heard her speak in 1988, and in those nine years, she'd published
and/or sold some incredible number of novels.  (Twenty?  Thirty?  I forget.)
She was speaking at a meeting of the Birmingham [England] Science Fiction
Group.  This was apparently the first talk she'd ever given to any group
about her writing, and even this appearance was only done because she was on
vacation and had told her publisher she could do a few signings.

She didn't sound embittered then, just a little unhappy that she'd wasted so
much of her life.  She wanted to get as much published as possible and didn't
want to spend any of her time on appearing at cons.  What did she say at
WisCon?

Wendell Wagner

On Sat, 1 Jul 2000, Steve Schaper wrote:

> Tolkien's worldview is teleological, and Jordan's is cyclic. Jordan
> literally -can't- cut to the chase, because there isn't one, so to
> speak.

E.R. Eddison's worldview, in =The Worm Ouroborous=, is cyclic in the
sense that I recall Jordan's is, and that didn't stop him from "cutting
to the chase" (eventually).

Tolkien was also cyclic as well as teleological.  "Always after a defeat
and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again," says
Gandalf.  Nor, Tolkien makes clear, is this the last time, though it is
the last time for Sauron the individual.  Tolkien even began a story,
"The New Shadow", about the return of evil only a lifetime after the War
of the Ring, and though he abandoned it, it was not because he'd changed
his mind about this.

David Bratman
- not responsible for the following cycle -

On Sat, 1 Jul 2000, Ted Sherman wrote:

> By the way, if I remember my San Jose history correctly (having been born and
> raised there), Mrs. Winchester was in a tower of the house when the San
> Francisco earthquake of '06 hit. The tower collapsed, killing her.

She was in her bedroom, or some such room, and when the quake shifted the
house, the door got stuck and it took some hours for her to be rescued.
Mrs Winchester was a nervous and superstitutious person at the best of
times, and this didn't help.

She died of natural causes several years later.

David Bratman
- not responsible for the following earthquake -

Wendell!  I didn't know you were such a great satirist!  (Must have come
from hanging around with Mary Stolzenbach too much before she moved to
Tennessee <g>)

Nevertheless I fear that some of this may actually come to be.  Not long
ago I got a phone call from a bank that wanted me to sign up with their
long-distance service.  This reminded me of the bad old days when banks
gave away toasters.  I said I preferred to get my banking services from a
bank and my phone services from a phone company.  The caller seemed
puzzled by this.  "Perhaps I feel this way because I'm over forty years
old," I said.  "How old are you?"  "Sixteen," he replied.

David Bratman
- not responsible for the following advertisement -

Jordan's view, in my opinion, is strictly mercenary.
        The series was originally only to be 5 books.
        He makes the bestseller list.
        The series will now be 8 books..
        He continues to make the bestseller list...
        Oh...make that 11 books...
        I may be jaded here, but the man is making big money for both himself
     and Tor. He has all sorts of incentive to be as circuitous as he wishes.
         There have been stories in the past that he tends to churn out the
     pages very slowly. One before the last book said he was so long in
     finishing it that Tor put him up in a hotel in NYC and had each day's
     writing output picked up on that day.
       Let me clarify what I meant earlier. It's my memory that in the early
     seventies the fantasy genre was in decline. The Ballantine Adult Fantasy
     series as edited by Lin Carter was for all intent and purposes dead. I
     have said before how much that series influenced me, introducing me to
     Dunsany, Morris, Cabell, Smith, and others. But except, perhaps, for
     Kurtz's original Deryni trilogy, none of it was a commercial success.
     While we as readers may not care if a book we love hits the marks the
     publishers set for it, they do. Failure to sell a certain amount of
     copies will determine whether or not they will keep a book in print on
     their backlists.The books I loved didn't make that figure,and that,
     possibly combined with whatever negotiations with heirs needed for
     reprints, meant those books went out of print from Ballantine.
        DAW books started up around this time, but Wollheim used his
     Ace Books contacts and writers like Moorcock,Norton, and MZB were the
     foundation. McCaffrey was Ballantine's big name, and Zelazny turned
     out Amber books for Avon. Those were the big names. Pickings were
     slim after that.
         Then DelRey revived the Adult Fantasy line with some books and
     writers that are not very memorable and with the Deryni series. They
     sold enough books to keep it going and then along came Brooks and

     Eddings. NYT bestselling fantasy. Yes, MZB had done it once. These
     guys did it again and again. Other publishers went hunting and came
     up with Feist and Williams and Jordan. They made money. They looked
     more, and there was Goodkind and Jones and Martin.
         They also establshed some midlist writers, like Carroll, Hoffman,
     Powers, DeLint, Tepper...and so on....
          Maybe we'd have found all of them eventually.Maybe not.
          But I seriously doubt the publishers would have taken a close look
     without the vision of another Jordan or some other name floating in
     their heads.
          But as I said,maybe I'm jaded....

I read with interest your comments on Jordan's ever increasing number of books,
but have a vague recollection that in the UK it was announced by Orbit as being
a 10 volume epic from day one. The interesting thing about comparrison between
GRRM and Jordan is that George Martin has stated from the very beginning that
Song of Ice and Fire was a 6 book sequence but over the last three or four
months I've been chatting with his editor at Bantam Spectra who is a dear friend
of mine, and she's pretty sure that 6 books is 3 books too few to tell the story
as it was originally proposed -- hence book three Storm of Swords is 1500 pages
long. GRRM is determined to bring the sequence to a conclusion as it was
originally promised. It also helps that GRRM can actually write.

I don't know Jordan's editors but I do know that the story of the hotel and
every single mss page being edited insitu and sent straight to the printers is
true. It's not that he writers slowly so much as he's as bored with the job as
we are. He's not writing every day like he used to, the motivation is gone, so I
sincerely doubt he's dragging the Wheel of Time books out now. Admittedly he
lost me along the way, but a friend of mine finished book 7 and remarked that
finally he could see where ti was going and that it would be finished by 10, but
that the last three books would be the *real* trilogy and the rest was so much
scene setting, weather watching and window dressing.

Still, without Jordan and Eddings, Donaldson and Brooks we'd be looking at a
similar situation to what has happened in the horror genre. The very good thing
is that these best selling fantasists haven't distanced themselves from the
genre that brought there success as have King, Koontz, and Rice. Instead these
boys are still championing the cause. We may not like everything they do, and
Feist may be flogging a dead horse with his Krondor: The Betrayal and Krondor:
The Assassins, but Eddings is moving on -- amazing but true, a single volume
story out in hardcover this month, new world, but distinctively Eddings --
Donaldson is finishing up his latest Reed Stevens crime novel and then will be
embarking upon a new series of fantasies (rumoured to be Covanent 3) Fiest is
about to launch a new series set in distant isles of Midkemia so none of the old
characters will be in evidence the fantasy genre is still riding that cyclical
crest of a wave that its been on for over 10 years... why? Because the best
sellers are evolving perhaps? Brooks has moved aside from Shanara and is doing
is semi-horror stuff... Williams went vr...

I find this whole idea fascinating... by the way, I love what you've said about
the numinus and the mystery of magic... has me thinking about books l loved as a
child, like Elidor...

Steve

Visit http://www.sufferers.cjb.net online presence of the first British E-serial
novel, The Sufferer's Song, by Steve Savile


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-------------- Forwarded Message ---------------


RE:     Literature abuse


Once a relatively rare disorder, Literature Abuse, or LA, has risen to new
levels due to the accessibility of grammar school & higher education and
increased college enrollment since the end of the Second World War. The
number of literature abusers is currently at record levels.
>>> > >
SOCIAL COSTS OF LITERARY ABUSE
>>> > >
Abusers become withdrawn, uninterested in society or normal relationships.
They fantasize, creating alternative worlds to occupy, to the neglect of
friends and family. In severe cases they develop bad posture from reading
in awkward positions or carrying heavy book bags. In the worst instances,
they become cranky reference librarians in small towns.
>>> > >
Excessive reading during pregnancy is perhaps the number one cause of moral
deformity among the children of English professors, teachers of English and
creative writers. Known as Fetal Fiction Syndrome, this disease also leaves
its victims prone to a lifetime of nearsightedness, daydreaming and
emotional instability.
>>> > >
HEREDITY
>>> > >
It has been established that heredity plays a considerable role in
determining whether a person will become an abuser of literature.
Most abusers have at least one parent who abused literature, often
beginning at an early age and progressing into adulthood. Many spouses of
an
abuser become abusers themselves.
>>> > >
OTHER PREDISPOSING FACTORS
>>> > >
Fathers or mothers who are English teachers, professors, or heavy fiction
readers; parents who do not encourage children to play games, participate
in healthy sports, interact in family "togetherness" or watch television in
the evening.
>>> > >
PREVENTION
>>> > >
Pre-marital screening and counseling, referral to adoption agencies in
order
to break the chain of abuse. English teachers in particular should seek
partners active in other fields. Children should be encouraged to seek
physical activity, and to avoid isolation and morbid introspection except
in computer games and the Internet.
>>> > >
SELF-TEST for literature abuse
>>> > >
How many of these apply to you?
>>> > >
1. I have read fiction when I was depressed, or to cheer myself up.
2. I have gone on reading binges of an entire book or more in a day.
3. I read rapidly, often 'gulping' chapters.
4. I have sometimes read early in the morning, or before work.
5. I have hidden books in different places to sneak a chapter without being
seen.
6. Sometimes I avoid friends or family obligations in order to read novels.
7. Sometimes I re-write film or television dialog as the characters speak.
8. I am unable to enjoy myself with others unless there is a book nearby.
9. At a party, I will often slip off unnoticed to read.
10. Reading has made me seek haunts and companions which I would otherwise
not choose.
11. I have neglected personal hygiene or household chores until I
had finished a novel.
12. I have spent money meant for necessities on books instead.
13. I have attempted to check out more library books than
permitted.
14. Most of my friends are heavy fiction readers.
15. I have sometimes passed out after a night of heavy reading.
16. I have suffered 'blackouts' or memory loss from a bout of reading.
17. I have wept, become angry or irrational because of something
I read.
18. I have sometimes wished I did not read so much.
19. Sometimes I think my fiction reading is out of control.
>>> > >
If you answered 'yes' to three or more of these questions, you
may be a literature abuser.
Affirmative responses to five or more indicates a serious
problem.
>>> > >
DECLINE AND FALL: THE ENGLISH MAJOR
>>> > >
Within the sordid world of literature abuse, the lowest circle belongs to
those sufferers who have thrown their lives and hopes away to study
literature in our colleges. Parents should look for signs that their
children are taking the wrong path-don't expect your teenager to approach
you and say, 'I can't stop reading Spenser.' By the time you visit her dorm
room and find the secret stash of the Paris Review, it may already be too
late.
>>> > >
What to do if you suspect your child is becoming an English major:
>>> > >
1. Talk to your child in a loving way. Show your concern. Let her know you
won't abandon her- but that you aren't spending a hundred grand to put her
through Stanford so she can clerk at Waldenbooks, either. But remember that
she may not be able to make a decision without help; perhaps she has just
finished Madame Bovary and is dying of arsenic poisoning.
>>> > >
2. Face the issue: Tell her what you know, and how: 'I found this book in
your purse. How long has this been going on?' Ask the hard question-'WhO is
this Count Vronsky?'
>>> > >
3. Show her another way. Move the television set into her room. Praise her
brother, the engineer. Introduce her to frat boys.
>>> > >
4. Do what you have to do. Tear up her library card. Make her
stop signing her letters as 'Emma.' Force her to take a math class, or
minor in Spanish. Transfer her to a Florida college.

Okay, I'll take the test:

1. I have read fiction when I was depressed, or to cheer myself up.
Yes.
2. I have gone on reading binges of an entire book or more in a day.
Yes.
3. I read rapidly, often 'gulping' chapters.
Yes.
4. I have sometimes read early in the morning, or before work.
Yes.
5. I have hidden books in different places to sneak a chapter without being
seen.
How did you know?
6. Sometimes I avoid friends or family obligations in order to read novels.
True.
7. Sometimes I re-write film or television dialog as the characters speak.
True.
8. I am unable to enjoy myself with others unless there is a book nearby.
Sometimes.
9. At a party, I will often slip off unnoticed to read.
Heck, yes.
10. Reading has made me seek haunts and companions which I would otherwise
not choose.
Yes, and they're better companions than the ones I would have been with
otherwise!
11. I have neglected personal hygiene or household chores until I
had finished a novel.
Yes.
12. I have spent money meant for necessities on books instead.
Heck, yes.
13. I have attempted to check out more library books than
permitted.
True.
14. Most of my friends are heavy fiction readers.
Yes.
15. I have sometimes passed out after a night of heavy reading.
Yes.
16. I have suffered 'blackouts' or memory loss from a bout of reading.
Not that I can remember.... :-) ;-)
17. I have wept, become angry or irrational because of something
I read.
True.
18. I have sometimes wished I did not read so much.
Never. I often think I read too little.
19. Sometimes I think my fiction reading is out of control.
No way.

If you answered 'yes' to three or more of these questions, you
may be a literature abuser.

Hurrah!

Affirmative responses to five or more indicates a serious
problem.

Oh, I'm definitely in the "serious" category.

Joan

***************************************************
Joan Marie Verba               verba001@...
Mythopoeic Press Secretary, Mythopoeic Society
List Administrator for DocEx, Mythsoc, MNSCBWI and
      MNSCREENW lists
http://www.sff.net/people/Joan.Marie.Verba
****************************************************

I forwarded the Lit abuse thing to a friend who said it keeps crashing her
Netscape.  Anyone have a clue?

Lizzie

>From: ERATRIANO@...

>So, tell us about her appearance at the Con, don't be such a tease...

Tepper's speech had nothing to do with mythopoiec fantasy so I won't
say anything about it here on the list.  I'd be glad to tell you in
a private e-mail.

>What was the one, either Tepper or maybe McKillip or ? about the girl who
>was, sorry, yes, raped by her father, then goes to live in the wilderness
>wtih her hound and eventually triumphs as a quasi-myth-fulfilling woman?
>That had some wonderful moments.

That was Robin McKinley's _Deerskin_, another one that was too intense for
me.  It did at least follow the fairy tale original moderately well.

>Lizzie

Berni

>From: ERATRIANO@...

>I was horrified at first, especially the miscarriage was gross, but believe
>that in the long run it redeemed itself as a work of art.  Hm, and I am
>mixing up Robin McKinley's _Beauty_ with Tepper's version.  I don't think
>I've read Tepper's.  It's McKinley's version that I remember so fondly.
>
>Lizzie

They're really, *really* different!

Berni

Stolzi@... wrote:


> Haven't seen the second.   PRISONER OF AZKABAN, no. 3, does perhaps justify
> the criticism that Rowling is getting too dark - with the "Dementors" and the
> descriptions of butchery etc.    If the witches are the good guys, what are
> they doing employing Dementors, eh?  and if they want to run a =good= school,
> why is everyone nasty and rotten both a) accepted and b) placed in Slytherin?
>   To justify this, you'd have to give forth a philosophic riff about the
> necessity of "balance" and of "accepting the Dark Side" - a philosophy I
> don't accept and certainly wouldn't purvey to children.

As far as the Slytherin students go, I can't help thinking of
Edmund's comment in VOYAGE OF THE DAWN TREADER:  "If there's a
wasp in the room, I like to be able to see it."  In other words,
if you =know= this unsavory element exists in the wizarding
community (which is not all that different from the rest of
humanity), perhaps it's better to have them under your eye, where
you can keep track of them and perhaps exert some control over
them.  After all, the likely alternative would be the
Slytherin-types slinking off and founding their =own= school.
Think of that and tremble!  :)


--Margaret Dean
   <margdean@...>

Bill W -

Assuming that your latest comments are in response to mine - the current
fantasy boom is not what's keeping the "classics" in print.  In fact,
many of the classics are not in print, except sporadically, the way they
always were.  A boom might be what generates a given printing, but it
doesn't affect the overall situation.  For instance, there have been
three, I think, paperback editions of Eddison over the years (one in the
60s, one in the early 80s, and one in the 90s), but none of them stayed
in print.

As for new books that become classics, these get published or not
regardless of whether there's a boom, because they don't appeal much to
boom readers.  The 1940s-1950s was not a good period for fantasy in
general literature, and yet both Peake and Tolkien managed to get
published.  If, somehow, the current boom had gotten started without them
and had taken its current form, they are both way too outside the formula
(yes, Tolkien is outside the formula inspired by his own works) to be
successful as they stand from a publisher aiming at riding the boom.
They would have to be published more in its spite, which means they could
just as easily be published if there was no boom at all, which in fact
they were.

Here's a timeline of the Adult Fantasy Series, in case there's any
fuzziness in your mind about dates:

1965: Ballantine publishes the authorized pb of LOTR, to counteract the
unauthorized Ace edition of a few months earlier, which in turn rode the
wave of a rising popularity of the hardcovers over the ten years they'd
existed.

1967-69.  During the height of the Tolkien fad (after it his sales never
dried up, the books merely ceased to be faddish), Ballantine tries to
catch this wave by publishing pbs of Peake and Eddison, plus one new
fantasy, _The Last Unicorn_ by Peter Beagle.

1969-74.  This is the period of the formal Ballantine Adult Fantasy
Series (the "Unicorn's head" books) edited by Lin Carter.  It included
dozens of classics, most of them in their first paperbacks, plus a few
new books by Evangeline Walton, Sanders Ann Laubenthal, and Katherine
Kurtz (the first Deryni trilogy).  Carter was let go at the start of 1974
and a few more books dribbled in during the course of the year.  This was
not because fantasy had ceased to sell but because the vein of classics
had been tapped out, and also because Ballantine had been sold and the
new owners didn't wish to pursue this policy.  (Daw Books was founded in
1972, but it was largely a continuation of what Wollheim had been doing
at Ace.)

1974-76.  Lester del Rey begins to run Ballantine's fantasy department,
publishing a few books, notably Gordon Dickson's _The Dragon and the
George_ and a fourth Deryni book, _Camber of Culdi_, under the griffin
logo (Ballantine "chicken head" fantasies).

1977.  Founding of the Del Rey imprint under Ballantine, together with
the publication of Terry Brooks's _The Sword of Shannara_ and Stephen
Donaldson's first _Chronicles of Thomas Covenant_, the first blockbuster
genre fantasies, plus the first Xanth book by Piers Anthony, first of the
endless series fantasies (Kurtz and others being much slower off the
ground at endlessness).

David Bratman
- not responsible for the following advertisement -

I should add that I don't disagree with Bill's thesis that some of the
midrange writers, like de Lint, wouldn't have gotten the kind of
publication they did if it hadn't been for the boom.  De Lint had a small
press of his own before he became a major-list novelist, and that's
probably where he would have stayed if, indeed, he had taken to writing
large novels at all, had there been no fantasy boom.

However, that tells us only about how they began.  If the top bestselling
authors were to disappear now, and especially if replacements weren't
dredged up, I think de Lint's sales would go up to partially fill the gap.

David Bratman
- not responsible for the following advertisement -

Interesting aside, what would you folks label as the all time 10 most
influential fantasies? could be for sales, style, scope of story...

Steve

Hi David!

>Assuming that your latest comments are in response to mine - the current
>fantasy boom is not what's keeping the "classics" in print.  In fact,
>many of the classics are not in print, except sporadically, the way they
>always were.  A boom might be what generates a given printing, but it
>doesn't affect the overall situation.  For instance, there have been
>three, I think, paperback editions of Eddison over the years (one in the
>60s, one in the early 80s, and one in the 90s), but none of them stayed
>in print.
        This was the point I was trying to make. For years after the Lin
Carter line ended, most of the classics he reprinted went out of print
again. Only recently have some lesser publishers brought a few out and
DelRey recently reprinted two Dunsanys in trade paperback.

>
>Here's a timeline of the Adult Fantasy Series, in case there's any
>fuzziness in your mind about dates:

>1969-74.  This is the period of the formal Ballantine Adult Fantasy
>Series (the "Unicorn's head" books) edited by Lin Carter.  It included
>dozens of classics, most of them in their first paperbacks, plus a few
>new books by Evangeline Walton, Sanders Ann Laubenthal, and Katherine
>Kurtz (the first Deryni trilogy).  Carter was let go at the start of 1974
>and a few more books dribbled in during the course of the year.  This was
>not because fantasy had ceased to sell but because the vein of classics
>had been tapped out, and also because Ballantine had been sold and the
>new owners didn't wish to pursue this policy.  (Daw Books was founded in
>1972, but it was largely a continuation of what Wollheim had been doing
>at Ace.)
    Being in the book selling business for 12 years now, I still feel it
was lack of sales that persuaded the new owners not to continue it as it
was.

>1974-76.  Lester del Rey begins to run Ballantine's fantasy department,
>publishing a few books, notably Gordon Dickson's _The Dragon and the
>George_ and a fourth Deryni book, _Camber of Culdi_, under the griffin
>logo (Ballantine "chicken head" fantasies).
     As I said,a less than glorious period. Brian Daley and Robert Don
Hughes are some of the names I recall from this period. Only the Kurtz
is still on my bookshelves.

  1977.  Founding of the Del Rey imprint under Ballantine, together with
>the publication of Terry Brooks's _The Sword of Shannara_ and Stephen
>Donaldson's first _Chronicles of Thomas Covenant_, the first blockbuster
>genre fantasies, plus the first Xanth book by Piers Anthony, first of the
>endless series fantasies (Kurtz and others being much slower off the
>ground at endlessness).
    Also the McKillip RiddleMaster books. A great time to haunt the sf
section of the bookstores.
    Thanks for the timeline. My dates were off a bit but I think I had
the general events right.<g>

                                       Bill

If, somehow, the current boom had gotten started without them
>and had taken its current form, they are both way too outside the formula
>(yes, Tolkien is outside the formula inspired by his own works) to be
>successful as they stand from a publisher aiming at riding the boom.

    Hmm..I put this in a second email because I'm puzzled a bit by it.
  The formula for most of the bestselling fantasys are so much Tolkienish
  I fail to see why JRR would be outside it. You can draw up a chart
  with all the Eddings, Shannara, Feist, Williams and Jordan series and
  check off the similiarities to LoTR. I once used to amuse a friend with a
  litany of "Gandalf begat Alannon, who begat Belgarath, who begat..." etc.
  The wizard from the Dragonlance trilogy was in there too, but I forgot his
  name. <g>
    Even Donaldson could be said to follow in Tolkien's steps, except as the
anti-Tolkien.<g>.
     Now, if by some publishing catastorphe (and no matter what we may think
about some of these series, their ceasing to be would be disastrous to the
genre and some publishers)they all vanished, De Lint might...MIGHT ..show
a minor blip in sales. But I doubt it, as much as I love his work. I've
tried to handsell his books to readers who were looking to read something
while chomping at the bit for Jordan's next installment. Mind you, I was
fairly sure it was a case of apples and oranges. I was right,in most cases.
On the other hand, I had great success selling GAME OF THRONES when it first
was published because I used a description from somewhere that called it
"The War of the Roses meets Tolkien". We sold 56 copies in a month, and led
the chain in sales for it.
       If anything, we are about to enter another Tolkien influenced boom,if
my hunch is right. There is the Dungeons and Dragons movie possibly out
this fall.(Since there is a new rules system being released for the game
about the same time I think it's a safe assumption that it will be the
fall.) And of course LoTR due out the year after..

                                            Bill W.

Hello.  As a newcomer to the group I've been enjoying the conversations.  I
agree that there is an impending boom of interest in Tolkien's work, partly
because more people will come to appreciate the profound underlying wisdom
his classic stories share with all great myth.

I am currently writing a book (my fifth) that will describe how the
leadership strategies employed by various Tolkien characters can be applied
in real world settings -- ranging from leading a family to leading an
organization.  I am very interested in having as many Tolkien fans -- and
fans of mythological wisdom in general -- help me with ideas and previewing
segments of the manuscript.

I'm still working with the publisher on the schedule, but it will likely
come out early to mid 2001.  Anyone interested?  I can be reached at
joe@....  Thanks!!

Joe Tye







>  If, somehow, the current boom had gotten started without them
>>and had taken its current form, they are both way too outside the formula
>>(yes, Tolkien is outside the formula inspired by his own works) to be
>>successful as they stand from a publisher aiming at riding the boom.
>
>   Hmm..I put this in a second email because I'm puzzled a bit by it.
> The formula for most of the bestselling fantasys are so much Tolkienish
> I fail to see why JRR would be outside it. You can draw up a chart
> with all the Eddings, Shannara, Feist, Williams and Jordan series and
> check off the similiarities to LoTR. I once used to amuse a friend with a
> litany of "Gandalf begat Alannon, who begat Belgarath, who begat..." etc.
> The wizard from the Dragonlance trilogy was in there too, but I forgot his
> name. <g>
>   Even Donaldson could be said to follow in Tolkien's steps, except as the
>anti-Tolkien.<g>.
>    Now, if by some publishing catastorphe (and no matter what we may think
>about some of these series, their ceasing to be would be disastrous to the
>genre and some publishers)they all vanished, De Lint might...MIGHT ..show
>a minor blip in sales. But I doubt it, as much as I love his work. I've
>tried to handsell his books to readers who were looking to read something
>while chomping at the bit for Jordan's next installment. Mind you, I was
>fairly sure it was a case of apples and oranges. I was right,in most cases.
>On the other hand, I had great success selling GAME OF THRONES when it
first
>was published because I used a description from somewhere that called it
>"The War of the Roses meets Tolkien". We sold 56 copies in a month, and led
>the chain in sales for it.
>      If anything, we are about to enter another Tolkien influenced boom,if
>my hunch is right. There is the Dungeons and Dragons movie possibly out
>this fall.(Since there is a new rules system being released for the game
>about the same time I think it's a safe assumption that it will be the
>fall.) And of course LoTR due out the year after..
>
>                                           Bill W.
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Click here for savings: beMANY!
>http://click.egroups.com/1/4115/8/_/505012/_/962567430/
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org

In a message dated 06/29/2000 7:10:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
bernip@... writes:

<< I want a Professor Snape action figure.  (It sneers, of course.) >>

And squirts something green and nasty on your carpet if you don't feed it the
right potion. (And even nastier if you do).
Steve

In a message dated 06/30/2000 9:00:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Stolzi@... writes:

<< Ever want to see this too, too solid flesh melt?

  Click on <A HREF="http://dogfeathers.com/java/spirals.html">Counter-Rotating
  Spirals Illusion</A> >>

If only we'd had this in the Sixties...

In a message dated 06/30/2000 8:30:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
dbratman@... writes:

<< Diane wrote about Jordan:

  > I *knew* I was in for a long haul ... He needed to take out the
  > incidental materials and "cut to the chase." >>

The Saint Martin's Press rep who comes to my store gives me occasional
gossippy tidbits about Jordan, who has been getting more and more coy about
how many books there are going to be. However, the rep says the upcoming
instalment, due in November, will advance the plot considerably. A lot is
going to happen, evidently, unlike what I've heard about the last one, which
I haven't read yet (I'm waiting until the whole series is done, and hoping I
live that long). Apparently, Jordan has been getting intimations of
impatience from his fans. Let's hope so.

Meanwhile, I'm really looking forward to the new George Martin!
Cheers,
Steve