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Attn : Shabnam Nadiya - From Dr. Ajoy Roy   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #1374 of 52480 |
Re: [mukto-mona] Attn : Shabnam Nadiya - From Dr. Ajoy Roy

>From: "Ajoy Kumer Roy" <kumer_ajoyroy@...>
>Subject: [mukto-mona] Attn : Shabnam Nadiya - From Dr. Ajoy Roy
>Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 16:53:16

Dear Mr. Roy:

Thank you for a nice essay on atheism. As you have yourself acknowledged, I
paraphrase here: “Like many other phenomenon in this universe, the existence
of god cannot be proved nor disapproved”. In my opinion, this statement
must be qualified with reference to our collective knowledge base as human
beings, at the current time. Who knows what future holds, and what
scientific breakthroughs will occur in the future to unfold the mysteries,
which we call "undefined" or "undetermined".

Homo-sapien era is only tens of thousand years old, compared to the life
span of this universe, which goes back many billion years. Therefore, this
universe and our planet earth were inhabited either by species of animals
(intelligent or sterile), or aliens or neither. Our limited knowledge
preclude us from determining whether other sources of lives existed or still
exist in other domains of this universe. We do not know what levels of
intelligence exist among the animal species that cohabit this earth. We do
not know if animals, insects etc. feel the same need to attribute their
existence to the mysteries of that "supernatural power", or some other
entity. Apparently, it may appear that animals, insects, and plants are not
burdened with the concept of god, which is obviously a human created
phenomenon. Would it be too much of a stretch to state that this vast
domain of unknown has been easily solved by the creation of this concept of
"supreme power"?

Given the fact that the believers of god tend to attribute all natural
occurrence as divine act, such as the rising of the sun, or the tide in a
river, or a hurricane, life, death, marriage, anything else in one or the
other way is attributed to an act of god. It is not difficult to see why
our early human ancestors would have had the urge to accept all naturally
occurring phenomenons as the act of a super natural power. With our current
knowledge, we do know much more. We know how stars and planets are formed;
we see the creation of new stars billions of light years ago through the
Hubble telescope. We have unlocked the mysteries of the building blocks of
life through genetic research. We are in the verge of creating “life” in
our laboratories; we are creating new species of fruits and vegetables. We
have eradicated deadly diseases like small pox and are in the verge of
conquering the deadly disease of cancer; HIV infected people are being given
new lease of life. Very soon we will be cloning humans and will acquire
the knowledge and proficiency in creating “super” human beings and animals.
Mind boggling progress indeed! If we look closely, all these
achievements have occurred in only the last 200 years of our existence. We
can hardly keep pace with the new findings from around the world, every
single day! Given all this, what I fail to understand is why people today
still are steadfast in their belief of god, or some super natural power.

The landing of human beings on the moon not only contributed in a large way
in demystifying the concept of extra planetary voyages, but in a strange
manner it also broadened our human capacity to accept that entities other
than “god” are able to break such barriers, which was previously associated
with “godly” powers alone. Many Muslims even today do not believe that
human beings ever could land on the moon, the object of such reverence, per
Islamic teachings. (I am not even referring to the fact that somewhere Mr.
Mohammed claimed that he fragmented the moon into two, and somehow re-joined
it!). If this is not plain stupidity, I do not know what else would
subscribe to this collective ignorance? Now, in all fairness I must
emphasize that it is not only Islam, but also all religions do have many
similar stupid connotations, which will fail the test, based on our current
knowledge base and rational analysis of cause-effect relationship.

This brings me to my favorite subject – religion. One good thing about it
is all religions are “historic” in nature. Believers are somehow not ready
to change with time, which is in a way a blessing for the free thinkers.
Every single passing day will continue to increase our knowledge regarding
the mysteries and the unknown phenomenon and raise our level of
consciousness. People who would not accept or resist the new knowledge will
be weeded out through the Darwinian principle of “survival of the fittest”,
because we know that knowledge empowers individuals. Gradually, we will see
that such people will command and control the world who do not subscribe to
the phony ideas of “the father, the son, and the holy ghost”, or those who
subscribe to the concept of a “pony with wings” which transported Mr.
Mohammed to the “heavens” to consort with Allah. Therefore, the believers
of religion will have to do one of the following to survive:

1)Denounce religion, or
2)Modify and modernize it to keep pace with time

Either way will lead to a better world.

With warm regards,

Bishnu Dey


I found this paragraph rather interesting, and I have added my comments on
the matter, below.

“God (Islamic or not Islamic) is such an entity whose existence cannot be
proved from the material frame of reference. Agnosticism is precisely the
same principle: it is a doctrine of an agnostic- distinguished from atheism.
Theologically speaking, the doctrine that god is unknown and unknowable. In
philosophy, the doctrine that a first cause and the essential nature of
things are unknowable to us the material human beings. G.J. Romanes has put
it in a nice way "By agnosticism, I understand a theory of things which
abstains from either affirming or denouncing the existence of god; all it
undertakes to affirm is that, upon existing evidence, the being of god is
unknowable." So as a Physicist I am an agnostic. The entity, which cannot be
proved from a material frame, does not exist to me - it is a meaning less
entity, an unnecessary concept even in philosophical or theological sense-
as is ether a useless concept in physics. If now I declare myself an
atheist, my atheism springs out from the principle of agnosticism, a
principle based on physics; it is not just a faith or belief in the
religious sense”.

I have only one trouble with your concept of being an “Agnostic atheist”,
which seems to me a somewhat opportunistic approach, which allows one from
totally disavowing the existence” of god by defining him/her/it as an
“unknown” or “undetermined” entity. This would perhaps leave the doors
slightly open, in case the day of reckoning appears. Basically, this
approach does not completely burn the bridge, which Nadiya and Javacrucian
and others had the courage to do. By the way, I am pitifully closer to your
position, a 70% atheist and 30% agnostic or some variation of that mix, if
this makes any sense to you. Hahahaha.

Regards,

Bishnu Dey

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Sun Jul 29, 2001 8:06 am

sankar_rabi@...
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[mukto-mona] Attn : Shabnam Nadiya - From Dr. Ajoy Roy

  Dear Nadiya, 

As you know, I am just a curious occasional reader of Mukto-Mona group to which my son Avijit introduced me. Sorry for late reaction on your touchy article 'Why I remain an Atheist' which grew out of your bitter personal experience. How I appreciate your feelings, sensitiveness and frankness. In a personal or private life it is mot very difficult for one to be a non-believer, or non-practicing follower of a religion. But to denounce one's religion publicly and to severe all links from tradition, time honored religious customs continued to be in vogue in the name of social and cultural phenomena is a different thing. This needs courage and boldness. And this precisely you have shown, my young lady. I praise your courage.

The courage does not come out automatically or spontaneously; it emanates from knowledge, conviction about truth, and freethinking based on logic and scientific philosophy. It took you long twenty years, if not more, even with your social educational background. You are fortunate that you have been brought out in an enlightened family, even then as a women you have suffered mentally, intellectually by your religion. Now think of those girls living in  remote villages or in  bustees of the cities, think of their sufferings in the hand of the religionist guardians, and the fotowabaz's. These guardians may be your parents, your kith kin, so called   social leaders, or even your teachers. How can I expect that those poor girls, when I see many of my intellectual friends and students (women) , though at personal level liberal having not much faith in religion dare not to denounce religion publicly,  will denounce the religion and free from the tentacles of the religion. They surrender to their fate.  Crux of the problem lies there. Individually one may denounce his or her faith, as you have done or Avijit did,- but problem of emancipation from the clutches of religion is the biggest challenge of the 21st century.

 No matter whether atheism is 'simply a belief in the non-existence of God' ( Javacrucian 7/19/01) or 'Atheism treats human beings as adults- religion does not. Atheism believes that humanists are capable of living a good life, and are capable of living a good life. " as you wrote, you have courageously declared yourself as an atheist. It is a matter of view how you accept atheism, - Javacrucian interpreted it in a restricted sense given in a dictionary, you have widened its scope and meaning to include humanism within its fold. (By the by I don't consider Stalin as a monster, whether he was an atheist or not. Javacrucian, I do not want to make a debate on this issue, please !)  Just a passing remarks about atheism. It originates from the Greek word atheos meaning without a god opposite to the word theos i.e. god. Atheism is a belief that there is no God. According to Bacon "A little philosophy inclienth men's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's mind to religion". The idealist philosophers have always attacked the atheists, Bacon is no exception. Young sarcastically remarked about them " By night an atheist believes a God". But I believe atheists are not that weak. To me atheism is not just like another religious faith or belief in which one is born or accept one for some personal material reason. As I said atheism springs from courage, muktta-mon  o mukta-budhi (free thinking  intellect).

We the physicist believe a basic principle very kin to agnosticism. This is a principle of impossibility, which slowly but steadily found place in physics. There are certain things in material phenomena, which can not be, achieved, prove or made by men. In thermodynamics there are two well known such principle: Impossibility of making  machine which generates perpetual motion impossibility of achieving the absolute zero degree temperature. There are other examples also: no material particle can exceed the speed of light c. Another is the Uncertainty principle according to which no two canonically related physical quantities can be measured with 100% certainty at a time. There are certain things whose existence cannot be proved by doing experiments in inertial frames: examples - existence of absoluteness of  space time. Take the case of ether an entity conceived by 18th century physicists as a vehicle of propagation of light. But no experiment of physics  will prove its existence. God (Islamic or not Islamic) is such an entity whose existence can not be proved from the material frame of reference. Agnosticism is precisely the same principle: it is a doctrine of an agnostic- distinguished from atheism. Theologically speaking, the doctrine that God is unknown and unknowable. In philosophy, the doctrine that a first cause and the essential nature of things are unknowable to us the material human beings. G.J. Romanes has put it in a nice way "By agnosticism, I understand a theory of things which abstains from either affirming or denouncing the existence of God; all it undertakes to affirm is that, upon existing evidence, the being of God is unknowable." So as a Physicist I am an agnostic. The entity, which cannot be proved from a material frame, does not exist to me - it is a meaning less entity, an unnecessary concept even in philosophical or theological sense-  as is ether a useless concept in physics.  If now I declare myself an atheist, my atheism springs out from the principle of agnosticism, a principle based on physics; it is not just a faith or belief in the religious sense.

 Nadiya, atheism is just not the western concept. The counter part term in Indian Philosophy ( I used the term Indian Philosophy, not Hindu philosophy as Avijit has allergic reaction to the term Hindu ) is Nastikata or Nastibad ( disbelieving in God, the creator) This is also identical with Karmanam - denying the consequences of work ). Nastikata or atheism, as a philosophy  was developed by Dhisan before Gautam Budha. According to him the Universe exists, but not God, the creator; only eternal entity is the matter, and matter consists of four elements: earth, water, energy and air. The creation of life is a specific process of nature and it evolves out of the composite composition of four elements. With death all ends. Perception is the only direct proof of existence. 

 Agnosticism has also its origin in Indian philosophy. Sanjoy Belthiputta was probably the founder of this school of philosophy who flourished during the time of Lord Budha. According his philosophy it is impossible to say whether an after-world (heaven and hell ), the soul (atma) exists or not. We cannot prove or disprove the existence of God.  

Sorry Nadiya for giving a long lecture like your father. Thanks once again for your straightforward article. But as I cautioned Avijit as a loving father, a word of advice for you too: keep yourself alert, and take good care of yourself. Remember you have started a fighting against a very powerful demon who leaves no stone unturned to stop you, ridicule you and finally eliminate you. It is not just an intellectual battle. If you are in Bangladesh you are exposed to more danger. Think what happened to Taslima. We the secularists or humanists could not do much for her. Such is the power of fundamentalism in Bangladesh.

 Thanks to Abul Kasem, Javacrucican, Avijit, Satya Sondhani, Free Person Smith, Aparthib, Fatemolla  for giving you most needed support.

 With love,             

Ajoy Roy  



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Fri Jul 27, 2001 4:53 pm

kumer_ajoyroy@...
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Message #1374 of 52480 |
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    Dear Nadiya,  As you know, I am just a curious occasional reader of Mukto-Mona group to which my son Avijit introduced me. Sorry for late reaction on...
Ajoy Kumer Roy
kumer_ajoyroy@...
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Jul 27, 2001
5:24 pm

Dear Mr. Ajoy; Many thanks for such a splendid explanation on matters touching religion, philosophy and science (physics). There are many other Nadias who will...
Abul Kasem
abul88@...
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Jul 28, 2001
1:40 pm

I envy you Avijit FOR u have such a good friend as a father. ... -SS ... <HR> <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV></DIV> <DIV> <FONT size=3> <FONT...
Satya Sondhani
anondomela@...
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Jul 29, 2001
1:55 am

... Dear Mr. Roy: Thank you for a nice essay on atheism. As you have yourself acknowledged, I paraphrase here: “Like many other phenomenon in this universe,...
Bishnu Dey
sankar_rabi@...
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Jul 29, 2001
10:26 am

Salute Dada/Bhaijaan/Brother/Comrade/Sathee/friend/Babu!!!! -SS ... <HR> <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV></DIV> <DIV> <FONT size=3> <FONT...
Satya Sondhani
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Jul 30, 2001
7:39 am

... From: "Bishnu Dey" <sankar_rabi@...> To: <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2001 4:06 AM Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Attn : Shabnam...
Javacrucian
javacrucian1@...
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Jul 29, 2001
2:36 pm

Nice. javacurian really nice. Yes, The burden of proof is always on the person making an extraordinary assertion or proposition (for e.g existence of god,...
Avijit Roy
avijitroy@...
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Jul 29, 2001
3:35 pm

... Dear Avijit,    I did post an article  related to God, atheism etc. And it was quite a thorough    discussion and I ttied to make the language precise...
aparthib
aparthib@...
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Jul 30, 2001
7:41 am

To: Bishnu Dey You comments are well taken! I observe insects, birds and animals every day and write about them from time to time. Here is a poem I wrote when...
Audrey Manning
audrey.manning@...
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Jul 29, 2001
4:45 pm

Thanks Audrey for a very nice poem. Indeed very refreshing to see people like you devoting your time and attention towards other species who share the world...
Bishnu Dey
sankar_rabi@...
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Jul 30, 2001
12:49 am

... Thank you Javacrucian for your well considered response. You might gather from my previous post that like you, I have not conclusively determined that god...
Bishnu Dey
sankar_rabi@...
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Jul 30, 2001
12:53 am

Thank you very much! You know, I am not an animal lover as one would classify animal lover. But I respect all living things. As a consequence, animals respond...
Audrey Manning
audrey.manning@...
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Jul 30, 2001
1:01 am

similar here! why not share those pictures? -SS ... ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I am only one, but still I am one. I...
Satya Sondhani
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Aug 6, 2001
9:14 am

a lovely poem. Thanks, FP ... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at...
FreePerson Smith
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Jul 30, 2001
7:39 am

Dear Aparthib I barely had the opportunity to glance through the voluminous work that you published. I am glad to find so many articles in one single place....
Bishnu Dey
sankar_rabi@...
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Jul 31, 2001
12:57 am

Hi SS, Can I actually post them to this list? If so, please let me know and I will post some. A....
Audrey Manning
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Aug 7, 2001
2:36 am
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