Alright! So, to rephrase: a "flat catch" is "F,s", where "s" lands at
Fd. The string itself may loop either b->d->a, or a->d->b, but as long
as s does not cross in front of F, it is a flat catch.

The key is really that "the string does not cross in front of F",
isn't it? For maneuvers on the same hand (e.g. "L1,2b") this is
intuitively the case, since you pick up the string on the back of the
finger. For "cross-hand" manuevers, though, this convention removes a
lot of ambiguity.

So, in the specific case of "L1,1b/", this can only be resolved as a
flat catch where R1b flies directly to L1, landing at L1b, moving
around to L1d and then to L1a. Any other landing of the string would
result in R1b crossing over the front of L1.

It will be interesting to apply this convention to various figures
where "ad" or "bd" have been used, and see how well it applies.

I see three ways to approach the "ad" and "bd" notations, now:

1. Define "ad" as "flat catch + ab", and "bd" as "flat catch + ba",
and allow it as shorthand for those maneuvers.

2. Rename "ad" to "ab" and "bd" to "ba", so (for instance) the Ten Men
series would start with "L2ab,5b". This reduces the amount of syntax
in the notation, and lets the existing definition of "ab" and "ba"
carry over to this maneuver.

3. Remove "ad" and "bd" altogether, and annotate them as two separate
moves (e.g., Ten Men would start with "L2,5b" and then "L2ab").

The part of me that sees mizz code as a way to compactly describe
figures likes option #2, since it would give us new ways to collapse
steps and keeps the notation leaner. But the part of me that views
mizz code as a way to analyze the construction of figures likes step
#3. I'd be in favor of removing "bd" and "ad" in future figure
descriptions, though, since their meaning overlaps "ab" and "ba" so
significantly.

- Jamis

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 8:02 PM, mizz <kyo-miya@...> wrote:
> Hello Jamis,
>
> It is good first that the rattlesnake completed.
> And thank-you for your overview the ad bd and so on.
>
> Before you came to mizz code, My ad bd rule was not correct: very ambiguous
> as you notice.
> I was misusing these just a land course at finger long time.
> Your questionnaires make this to force me to know more clearer, then I
> understand that
> 3 ways relations is simply flat land, flat land +ab and flat land+ba.
>
> If string fly to a and land on runway to b; or fly to b and to a, it is as
> same as flat land without cross over.
> the string itself flies directly over finger and land on d; without cross
> over in front of finger, the result is
> simply flat landing. No runway course at all there. We have to think direct
> d point land is essential.
> So, this  relearns or change  the definition of ad bd. It absolutely
> contains ab or bd with flat catch.
>
> Yes we review old code but we know this misuse old therefore we can check
> them at that time of code-reading.
> We can easily find the meaning of them, It is a history, one of old word.
> Your Ref will how to answer?
> It is very interesting one.
>
> mizz
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jamis Buck" <jamis@...>
> To: <mizz-code@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 3:25 AM
> Subject: Re: [mizz-code] A Rattlesnake and a Boy Short Cut 2
>
>
> Mizz,
>
> Thank-you so much for putting together that explanation. I see now
> that what I was calling "L1bdh,1b/" is the same as your "L1h,1b/", and
> I have been making the Rattlesnake correctly all along. :)
>
> However!
>
> I'm still confused about the definition of "ad" and "bd" as
> destinations. Until now, I understood them to mean that the string
> (1b/ in this case) was flown so that it landed at "a" or "b", and then
> flew around the finger in the "d" direction.
>
> In other words, this is how I originally understood these three constructs:
>
> * L1bdh,1b/ -> after this move, 1b-1b/ exists.
> * L1adh,1b/ -> after this move, 1a-1b/ exists.
> * L1h,1b/ -> same as L1adh,1b/
>
> However, from the explanation you posted, my understanding is
> obviously wrong. It looks, from the pictures, as if:
>
> * L1bdh,1b/ -> your L1h,1b/ and 1ba
> * L1adh,1b/ -> your L1h,1b/ and 1ab
>
> Is that the general way in which "bd" and "ad" are defined?
>
> If so, what is the definition of "L1b,1b/"? My intuition says it
> should be picked up from the near side (which is what sparked this
> conversation). You are saying that it should be from the _far_ side
> (in this case).
>
> Obviously, near/far depends on many things. "L1,2b" will pick up 2b
> from the near side. "L5,2b" will pick it up from the far side. The
> ambiguity, to me, is when L1 picks up a string of R1, since L1 is not
> nearer or farther from R1.
>
> Sorry to prolong this. I really want to understand it, since I'm sure
> (now) that I've misused "bd" and "ad" in many of the subsequent CFJ
> figures.
>
> - Jamis
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 4:45 AM, mizz <kyo-miya@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Jamis,
>>
>>
>>
>> In this case, we think how to fly R1b to L1 are 3 flight ways in simply.
>>
>> 1) L1h,1b/ 2)L1adh,1b/ 3)L1bdh,1b/
>>
>> And result of these are not same, different each other.
>>
>>
>>
>> Picture of explanation is here.
>>
>> http://home.p07.itscom.net/nenemei/v2/ad_bd_flat.png
>>
>> It is now under your inspection.
>>
>> And I hope you to get A Rattlesnake on your string.
>>
>>
>>
>> mizz
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Jamis Buck
>> To: mizz-code@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 1:04 AM
>> Subject: Re: [mizz-code] A Rattlesnake and a Boy Short Cut 2
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 10:39 PM, mizz <kyo-miya@...> wrote:
>> > #5; I try to write in ISFA style as you do.
>> > "move left thumb toward
>> > to right palm almost touch it on, then hook far right thumb string on
>> > back
>> > of left thumb, and
>> > return to original position".
>>
>> Isn't this the same as L1bd,1b/ ? The result of hooking up R1b from
>> the far side, with L1, is to wrap R1b around L1, from b to d, unless
>> I'm still misunderstanding.
>>
>> I suppose, ultimately, my question is: am I misunderstanding what the
>> Fbd destination means?
>>
>> - Jamis
>>
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Jamis Buck" <jamis@...>
>> > To: <mizz-code@yahoogroups.com>
>> > Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 12:34 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [mizz-code] A Rattlesnake and a Boy Short Cut 2
>> >
>> >
>> > Even after proof-reading, I still made a typo! My alternate step #2
>> > should, of course, be "L2,p/".
>> >
>> > - Jamis
>> >
>> > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 8:32 PM, Jamis Buck <jamis@...> wrote:
>> >> Perhaps I'm expecting a different figure than the one you're
>> >> describing, mizz. Let me make sure I'm not making any false
>> >> assumptions here.
>> >>
>> >> Your (revised) instructions are:
>> >>
>> >> 1 1-5,s
>> >> 2 L0,p/
>> >> 3 L1-5,(0*)1-5
>> >> 4 L2,p1/
>> >> 5 L1h,1b/
>> >> 6 (L1h*)1l
>> >> 7 L1e,(1b)5ajjj
>> >> 8 L2&L5
>> >> 9 L1-5,1
>> >> 10 R34.6,5a
>> >> 11 SPR & arrange & move
>> >>
>> >> If I understand correctly, then steps 2-4 give the same result as:
>> >>
>> >> 2 L1,p/
>> >> 3 R1ab[2]
>> >> 4 R5ba[2]
>> >>
>> >> Then, step 6 is a traditional navaho on the left thumb. Step 7 moves
>> >> the part of L5a that spans L1b-L1a under the L1 loop, to 1, removing
>> >> the original 1 loop in the process.
>> >>
>> >> If I've understood all of that, then the only part I do not understand
>> >> is step 5. As I read that step, is says to "move left thumb toward
>> >> right hand, over right near thumb string, and under right far thumb
>> >> string, and return with right far thumb string high on back of left
>> >> thumb".
>> >>
>> >> But if I do that, at the end of the figure I get two loops on the 1a
>> >> transverse string, each a simple h-cross.
>> >>
>> >> On the other hand, if I do this for step 5: "move left thumb toward
>> >> right hand, over right near thumb string, and over right far thumb
>> >> string, then hook right far thumb string up from far side, high on
>> >> left thumb, and return". Then at the very end I get a single loop on
>> >> the 1a transverse string, a "long snake" tiny figure.
>> >>
>> >> This latter interpretation for step 5 is what I understand to be
>> >> "L1bdh,1b/".
>> >>
>> >> Are either of those the figure you are describing?
>> >>
>> >> - Jamis
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 7:50 PM, mizz <kyo-miya@...> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Jamis,
>> >>>
>> >>> I know you could not get yet a rattlesnake. Let me say that.
>> >>> #5 L1h,1b/ is not
>> >>> L1bdh,1b/ nor L1adh,1b/
>> >>> Latter 2 will make crossover absolutely in front of L1 in result but
>> >>> former will not make crossover there.
>> >>> Former is in another word flat catch or plain catch without crossover.
>> >>>
>> >>> If L1hT1b/ is done, we lose R1 string at all. It is never case here.
>> >>> Check each these three casees, then you will know all relations of
>> >>> them
>> >>> and get the figure.
>> >>> Now I am fighting with skunks.
>> >>>
>> >>> If you get a boy and a rattlesnake, I will send the combined.
>> >>>
>> >>> mizz
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>> From: Jamis Buck
>> >>> To: mizz-code@yahoogroups.com
>> >>> Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 12:52 AM
>> >>> Subject: Re: [mizz-code] A Rattlesnake and a Boy Short Cut 2
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> mizz,
>> >>>
>> >>> Even after applying your correction I still wound up with a simple
>> >>> h-cross on the 1a transverse string. After some experimenting, I found
>> >>> I had to also alter #5:
>> >>>
>> >>> 5 L1bdh,1b/
>> >>>
>> >>> This may be my own misunderstanding of the convention of a finger on
>> >>> one hand picking up a string on the same finger of the other hand.
>> >>> When L1 picks up any string on R2, R3, R4, or R5, it is easy to assume
>> >>> that L1 is picking up the near string, and when (e.g.) L5 picks up any
>> >>> string on R4, R3, R2, or R1, it is easy to assume it is picking up the
>> >>> far string. But when (e.g.) L1 picks up any string on R1, it is not
>> >>> clear whether it should be picking it up from the near side or the far
>> >>> side.
>> >>>
>> >>> The only way I could justify your #5 would be if the convention was
>> >>> for a plain pick up "L1h,1b/" to always be from the outside of the
>> >>> loop, and "L1hT1b/" to be the corresponding pick up from the inside.
>> >>> Is this correct?
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks!
>> >>>
>> >>> - Jamis
>> >>>
>> >>> On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 5:52 AM, mizz <kyo-miya@...> wrote:
>> >>> > Jamis,
>> >>> > Excuse me.
>> >>> > You are right on the code, no mistake.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > But I found my mistake at #7
>> >>> > It should be
>> >>> > 7 L1e,(1b)5ajjj (5a string end at near 1a)
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Please try it again. not 5ajj but 5ajjj because for under 1b
>> >>> > through.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > mizz
>> >>> >
>> >>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >>> > From: "Jamis Buck" <jamis@...>
>> >>> > To: <mizz-code@yahoogroups.com>
>> >>> > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:40 PM
>> >>> > Subject: Re: [mizz-code] A Rattlesnake and a Boy Short Cut 2
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > mizz,
>> >>> >
>> >>> > I'm not sure if I'm misreading your instructions or not. When I
>> >>> > finish
>> >>> > the last step, I have (essentially) a loop around both transverse
>> >>> > strings, but the loop that represents the rattlesnake in "A
>> >>> > Rattlesnake and a Boy" coils around one of the transverse strings
>> >>> > (appropriately, "long snake", in mizz code terms). The loop in "A
>> >>> > Rattlesnake which will chase a boy", below, only has simple
>> >>> > h-crosses
>> >>> > on the transverse strings. (Actually, it has two h-crosses on 1a,
>> >>> > but
>> >>> > also an h-cross on 1b.)
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Is that correct? (Times like these I wish there was a way to
>> >>> > concisely
>> >>> > describe a string configuration on the hands... Tom Storer's
>> >>> > monograph
>> >>> > has a method for describing a static configuration, but it is very
>> >>> > verbose.)
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Regarding the string calculus, I had wondered if you had read it
>> >>> > already, since there are similarities between mizz code and his
>> >>> > notation. His notation focuses on finger movements, but it also has
>> >>> > some aspects of string flying, and uses parentheses to indicate
>> >>> > "over"
>> >>> > and "under" paths (among other things). Once I understand it better
>> >>> > I'll be happy to say more about it, but I'm still trying to
>> >>> > understand
>> >>> > it myself!
>> >>> >
>> >>> > - Jamis
>> >>> >
>> >>> > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 7:18 PM, mizz <kyo-miya@...>
>> >>> > wrote:
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Hi Jamis,
>> >>> >> OH you on chapter 8, far away from me! I'm on Rattlesnake of
>> >>> >> chapter
>> >>> >> 4.
>> >>> >> But therefore Here we go;
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Second figure is "A Rattlesnake" for a boy.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> "A Rattlesnake which will be chase a boy"
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> 1 1-5,s
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> 2 L0,p/
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> 3 L1-5,(0*)1-5
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> 4 L2,p1/
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> 5 L1h,1b/
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> 6 (L1h*)1l
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> 7 L1e,(1b)5ajj
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> 8 L2&L5
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> 9 L1-5,1
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> 10 R34.6,5a
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> 11 SPR & arrange & move
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Please let me know what is string figure calculus later.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> mizz
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>> >> From: Jamis Buck
>> >>> >> To: mizz-code@yahoogroups.com
>> >>> >> Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 12:42 AM
>> >>> >> Subject: Re: [mizz-code] A Rattlesnake and a Boy Short Cut 1
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Mizz,
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Nice! What a fun idea, to split the different components out into
>> >>> >> their
>> >>> >> own figures. I'll admit I had some trouble with this one, until I
>> >>> >> tried an
>> >>> >> inner pull to display it. Probably it's just the string I'm using.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> I'm still working on chapter 8, but it's slow going. The tricks are
>> >>> >> difficult to phrase in mizz code because a lot of them depend on
>> >>> >> specific
>> >>> >> finger or hand movements for "effect". Also, I received the back
>> >>> >> issues of
>> >>> >> the BSFA in the mail last week and have been thoroughly engrossed
>> >>> >> in
>> >>> >> the
>> >>> >> supplement to issue 16: Tom Storer's treatise on a string figure
>> >>> >> calculus.
>> >>> >> Extremely fascinating stuff!
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> - Jamis
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 10:39 PM, mizz <kyo-miya@...>
>> >>> >> wrote:
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> Hello Jamis,
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> I have tried "Reverse engineering" on "A Rattlesnake and a Boy"
>> >>> >>> And named "A Boy is being chased by A Rattlesnake".
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> First figure is "A Boy" and other figures follow after.
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> "A Boy who will be chased by rattlesnake"
>> >>> >>> 1 1-5,s
>> >>> >>> 2 R1ba[2]
>> >>> >>> 3 R5,(1b)5
>> >>> >>> 4 L2,(1b/&5a/*)p1/
>> >>> >>> 5 SPR & arrange
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> CFJ will smile soon.
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> mizz
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > ------------------------------------
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>> >>
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