> I do not understand why the proponents of Roman Mithraism do not want to find
a LINK to Persian Mithraism?
>

The link is there whether people want it to be or not. However the concern isn't
the link, but that the personalities of the two Mithra(s) are so different.

One is swift, friendly, practical, honest yet forgiving (the Mithraic Liturgy).
We see the power of the Sun forgiving the person of their sins that they might
elevate to a new level.

Each trip up the stellar ladder for the Roman praxis involves on literal levels,
looking at the material and animal worlds, seeing what it means to transform.
Things aren't what they appear. Asking questions is okay (Corax). You are in the
darkness seeking truth. Words don't mean what they say and people don't say
always what they mean (a classic Mercury lesson) and discernment of truth is
key.

Nymphus, darkness recedes and the dawn of Venus approaches. A new light... New
ways of looking at truth. There is a veil. A Veil and the eagerness of union.
The discovery that secrets must be cherished in a marriage of sorts even as
there must be no secrets between lovers or the seeker and the God.

And with the realization that the world is not all sugary good and we are not
all perfect. From that dawn comes the light of forgiveness, the capacity to
discern reason and feeling... mercy and tenderness.

But then we have our day to day chaoses, traipsings, communications and
interactions.

We learn that when we call a company and the person on the other end of the
phone says "have a great day" it is a mechanical form of speech more than a
genuine "I reeeeaaallly hope you have a good day...".

Is this a lie? Not per se. It just means that one needs to master reason before
the heart to discern truth from not only words but the feeling and intuitions
directed behind those words.

And then we get to Miles where it gets even more earthy and fun...

a discussion for another time.

To continue....


Even Nabarz's book, shows us a Persian Mithra that gets irritated at any small
infarction. It's tough for anyone to be that perfect and without the cipher of
compassion and pragmatism, it is difficult for the Roman geared spirit to truly
relate to a being that is so all perfect and offended at any "whoops."

Gods can wear different faces and have different cultural forms of praxis and
worship.

What I would say based more on my own personal gnosis and experiences is that
one the Persian, have different personality characteristics.  The Zoroastrian
influence of the Persian system, I would say isn't something that can be
minimized. It is there, but the issue is with many Roman worshippers of Mithras,
people mess up... people trick themselves and others all the time. There are a
million little white lies people and others will tell you in a day.

"your hair looks nice, " "it will be fine" "have a nice day"

I think on a human level, the Persian Mithra is a paragon of war and truth and
the need to uphold the word with yourself and others.

The Roman Mithras is about those things to a cooler, more pragmatic less zealous
degree.

However the Roman Mithras is about using the stellar capacities and lessons of
the classic planetary spheres for its own forms of alchemic and personal
transformation by finding your way out of the darkness, to the dawn, to the
taking of the sword and taking up the good fight, to developing the capacity to
destroy your own shadow (Nabarz calls this using Mithras as the Crown) so that
Anahita/Athena/Venus can purify the initiate as he continues upon one of many
paths that lead him to their Light.

David <zetrone2003@...> wrote:

> Why would someone put gold into a FAKED sword?

I am not a metallurgist or any kind of expert, just
thinking here.

8 karat is pretty cheap gold.  Back in the 1960s there
was a line of very cheap tableware that was gold plated,
right over the rough edges and actual metal splinters
of the cheap potmetal casting.

>  The metal is so soft that even the rubber edge of
> a tumber will put a dent in it if the sword is left
> there while the tumbler is on for even 15 minutes.

If it is that soft, why doesn't it have marks from
whatever it was lying on or wrapped in, for all
those years?

=Tamar

Greetings folks,

I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but I've been a dealer in ancient artifacts
since 1985. All of the swords in the photos look very much like the fake ancient
swords that have been coming out of China for the last five years or so.

If you look at all the swords in the picture, you'll notice that:

A. They're all basically the same size and blade shape.
B. They are all um, "amazingly" well detailed.
C. This dealer has FIVE of these things, and more besides he says.
D. When they're cleaned up they look, well, like new.

Check out "swords" in the ancient art and artifacts section on Ebay. You'll find
a pretty wide variety, but every once in a while a genuine ancient sword goes
up. They almost always look like hell. One dealer having a *bunch* of pristine
swords in his posession seems about the same chance as winning the lottery.

Also, I'm pretty sure that I've seen a couple of these swords for sale on Ebay
before. ;)

I wouldn't get caught up in the symbolism of these things too much.

Cassius

David,

You write:
"As the effluent channels along the side of the snake downward it appears to me
as a GRAPE VINE with clusters of grapes represented as granulations of the
metal.

On the blade just before the hilt there is a figure of a stalk of wheat and a
water pail. The water pail looks like the one on a stone relief of a god picking
fruit off a tree from ancient Mesopotamia."

Thanks for showing the photos.

Commenting only on the design, it does fit from what we might expect from a
Mithraic sword. We could compare the design with the Cumont jpeg image of the
'Mithraic Cameo' shown in the file section where we see two bow handles in the
form of serpents, analogous to the serpent handles on the swords in your photos.
Not shown are the arrows which we would otherwise infer as corresponding to the
sword blade, representing shafts of emerging light.

In your photo where four swords are shown, the one on the far right with the
entwining serpent handle is easily interpreted as a caduceus motif of the Raven
grade. But where the blade emerges from the bull’s head, can be associated
with a higher grade (subsequent to the death of the bull).

-james

Iguess my post did not go through but the images did.

Five images of a LOST IN TIME sword that no one has ever seen anything like. A
bullshead hilt with a IMPERFECTION on the right side of the bull's neck. It
seems to STREAM downward on to the snake and down the snakes body to the pommel.

The IMPERFECTION is on both sides of the sword handle. It is the wound inflicted
by Mithra. It is not an unintended casting imperfection. The snake below is
partaking of the effluent from the wound. As the effluent channels along the
side of the snake downward it appears to me as a GRAPE VINE with clusters of
grapes represented as granulations of the metal.

On the blade just before the hilt there is a figure of a stauk of wheat and a
water pail. The water pail looks like the one on a stone relife of a god picking
fruit off a tree from ancient Mesopotamia.

The sword weighs 860 grams, is short and very ancient in design. It tests
positive for gold, copper, and zinc. I will be doing more spectroscopic analysis
in the future as well as potomicrograph CCDs.

Everyone, so far, except some non sword experts have said i is a fake brass
Fantasy sword. None of the experts has even held the sword in their hands.

David

On the continuing link between Persian Mithra and Roman see "Mithras Reader: An
academic and religious journal of Greek, Roman, and Persian studies" vol1 and
vol2 specialy the papers in the journal:

From Vo2

Factors determining the outside projection of the Mithraic Mysteries by Dr.
Israel Campos M�ndez.

Abstract
This paper analyses some of the special features in the social composition of
those initiated into the Mithraic mysteries. It also examines how the
relationship of the Mithraic Cult with the Roman political power was and how a
god of Persian origin could establish this relationship.
http://www.lulu.com/product/download/mithras-reader-vol-2/3922187

and Vol1

"Continuity and Change in the Cult of Mithra", by Dr. Israel Campos M�ndez.
Mithra, and "The warrior group Mithra and the Iranian words and images
Introduction to Classes of Manichean, Mithraism and Sufiyeh", by Dr. Saloome
Rostampoor.

Abstracts:
After the rejection that Cumont's hypothesis received, the continuity
between the god Mithra worshipped among the Persians and the god that presided
over the Mithraic mysteries, there have been few attempts to seek the connection
between both religious traditions. We offer
with this article an approach focused on this relationship, referring
to special elements that do not offer doubt on their clear western origin and
that they played an evident role in the daily
Mysteric practice. Starting from there, we pose the question: to what
extent were the own Roman followers conscious of the Mithra's connections with
the Iranian framework?

Introduction to Classes of Manichean, Mithrāism and Sufiyeh
by Dr. Saloome Rostampoor, Islamic Azad University � Islam shahr
unite, Iran.

From ancient Iran, there were groups and religions with special
customs and traditions.
These religions classified their followers into different special
groups which had their own rules and according to these rules they aimed to
train people to reach what was known as perfection. The customs and traditions
existing in these groups are very
important since besides the fact they introduced these religions in
aiming to understand them and their influences on Iran in the context in which
they existed enables us to gain a greater understanding of the country, its
people and their beliefs.
Three important and influential religions in Iran are Manichean,
Mithraism and Sufism, which influenced Iranian society in their own period
through their special customs and ceremonies. Though these groups were viewed as
different in the time that they appeared, there are considerable similarities in
their classifications. This article
aims to investigate these classifications in the three religions
mentioned in a short and simple way.

http://www.amazon.com/Mithras-Reader-academic-religious-Studies/dp/1905524099


Regards,
Nabarz

--- In mithras@yahoogroups.com, jaime palomares <capanellius@...> wrote:
>
> Here is some recent blog news of interest on the subject:
>
> http://rambambashi.wordpress.com/2009/11/26/mithra-and-mithras/
>
>  “The main problem . . . was the assumption that there was a continuity
from Iran to the Roman Empire. Of course it would be exaggerated to state there
was no continuity at all: the name Mithras is clearly derived from Mithra and
one of the grades of the Roman mysteries was called “Persian”. But the cult
of Mithras is essentially a Roman phenomenon. No Mithraic cave has ever been
excavated in Iran, nor are there indications that Avestan hymns were chanted in
the Roman mithraea.”
>
> The point being, that where there is an indication of continuity in the
traditions of Mithra to Mithras, it should be acknowledged, but where there is
not any, it too should be acknowledged (which would also apply in the case of
the Hindu Mitra, to Iranian Mithra, to Roman Mithras, where it might apply).
>
> (From a personal perspective, I would be interested in reading more posts from
those primarily interested in Mitra or Mithra, since I think it might broaden
our knowledge of the Roman Mithras in certain areas).
>
> -james
>
> _____________________________
> From: David <zetrone2003@...>
> To: mithras@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, November 25, 2009 6:41:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [mithras] Persian Mithraism
>
>  
> Dear fellow seeker: I have no biases against any Mithra worshipper. I am
looking fpr information on the rites of the Persian Mithraism.
>
> Are there any descrptions or actual images of the swords used in the rites?
Any artifact, at all, with images of a bullshead and a snake below it?
>
> I realize that the idea of the bull slaying was outlawed when Zorastorism came
to the Persian empire. Researchers have linked the bull slaying ritual with the
changing of star patterns in the sky around 4000 BCE. This would be much further
back in tile than the establishment of Zoroastorism. Images dating from this
time would be most helpful.
>
> I do not understand why the proponents of Roman Mithraism do not want to find
a LINK to Persian Mithraism?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> David
>
> --- On Tue, 11/24/09, Parviz Varjavand <solvolant@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>
> >From: Parviz Varjavand <solvolant@yahoo. com>
> >Subject: [mithras] Persian Mithraism
> >To: mithras@yahoogroups .com, ushta@yahoogroups. com, omidesfandiari@
yahoo.com
> >Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 11:25 PM
> >
> >
> > 
> >Dear Omid Esfandiari,
> >
> >We who are interested in Persian Mithraism should get to know one another
better. This site has no respect for us as its members are mostly into Roman
Mithraism and are heavily invested in proving Persian Mithraism as an
illegitimate claim. I did waste a lot of time talking to this group in the past.
Do you have any suggestions as to where persons like yourself or Nabarz may get
together and enrich our knowledge of our heritage of Persian Mithraism rather
than being put down by the members of this group at every turn?
> >
> >Mehr Afzoon,
> >Parviz Varjavand
> >
> >--- On Sat, 11/21/09, Omid <omidesfandiari@ yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>From: Omid <omidesfandiari@ yahoo.com>
> >>Subject: [mithras] Digest Number 2064
> >>To: mithras@yahoogroups .com
> >>Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 10:06 PM
> >>
> >>
> >> 
> >>Re: Mithras in China and Japan
> >>Posted by: "qa9999aq" sebastian122@ gmail.com   qa9999aq
> >>Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:16 am (PST)
> >>--- In mithras@yahoogroups .com, "Aeon" <aeonforce01@ ...> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Does anyone know anything about Roman Mithraism in China and Japan? It
> >>> was supposed to have reached China and Japan, but most of what I've
> >>> seen is very vague...only that he was seen as a military general in
> >>> China, but no online photos of iconography. Did Roman Mithraism really
> >>> reach China and Japan?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Aeon
> >>----
> >>You mean Persian Mithraism?
> >>It is believed that "An-Chin-Ga" ,  a Parthian prince took the teachings
(in disguise of Manichaean beliefs) to Tibet and Eastern China.
> >>I find you the sources later.  
> >>  
>

Here is some recent blog news of interest on the subject:

http://rambambashi.wordpress.com/2009/11/26/mithra-and-mithras/

 “The main problem . . . was the assumption that there was a continuity from
Iran to the Roman Empire. Of course it would be exaggerated to state there was
no continuity at all: the name Mithras is clearly derived from Mithra and one of
the grades of the Roman mysteries was called “Persian”. But the cult of
Mithras is essentially a Roman phenomenon. No Mithraic cave has ever been
excavated in Iran, nor are there indications that Avestan hymns were chanted in
the Roman mithraea.”

The point being, that where there is an indication of continuity in the
traditions of Mithra to Mithras, it should be acknowledged, but where there is
not any, it too should be acknowledged (which would also apply in the case of
the Hindu Mitra, to Iranian Mithra, to Roman Mithras, where it might apply).

(From a personal perspective, I would be interested in reading more posts from
those primarily interested in Mitra or Mithra, since I think it might broaden
our knowledge of the Roman Mithras in certain areas).

-james

_____________________________
From: David <zetrone2003@...>
To: mithras@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 25, 2009 6:41:13 AM
Subject: Re: [mithras] Persian Mithraism

 
Dear fellow seeker: I have no biases against any Mithra worshipper. I am looking
fpr information on the rites of the Persian Mithraism.

Are there any descrptions or actual images of the swords used in the rites? Any
artifact, at all, with images of a bullshead and a snake below it?

I realize that the idea of the bull slaying was outlawed when Zorastorism came
to the Persian empire. Researchers have linked the bull slaying ritual with the
changing of star patterns in the sky around 4000 BCE. This would be much further
back in tile than the establishment of Zoroastorism. Images dating from this
time would be most helpful.

I do not understand why the proponents of Roman Mithraism do not want to find a
LINK to Persian Mithraism?

Sincerely,

David

--- On Tue, 11/24/09, Parviz Varjavand <solvolant@yahoo. com> wrote:


>From: Parviz Varjavand <solvolant@yahoo. com>
>Subject: [mithras] Persian Mithraism
>To: mithras@yahoogroups .com, ushta@yahoogroups. com, omidesfandiari@ yahoo.com
>Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 11:25 PM
>
>
> 
>Dear Omid Esfandiari,
>
>We who are interested in Persian Mithraism should get to know one another
better. This site has no respect for us as its members are mostly into Roman
Mithraism and are heavily invested in proving Persian Mithraism as an
illegitimate claim. I did waste a lot of time talking to this group in the past.
Do you have any suggestions as to where persons like yourself or Nabarz may get
together and enrich our knowledge of our heritage of Persian Mithraism rather
than being put down by the members of this group at every turn?
>
>Mehr Afzoon,
>Parviz Varjavand
>
>--- On Sat, 11/21/09, Omid <omidesfandiari@ yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>From: Omid <omidesfandiari@ yahoo.com>
>>Subject: [mithras] Digest Number 2064
>>To: mithras@yahoogroups .com
>>Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 10:06 PM
>>
>>
>> 
>>Re: Mithras in China and Japan
>>Posted by: "qa9999aq" sebastian122@ gmail.com   qa9999aq
>>Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:16 am (PST)
>>--- In mithras@yahoogroups .com, "Aeon" <aeonforce01@ ...> wrote:
>>>
>>> Does anyone know anything about Roman Mithraism in China and Japan? It
>>> was supposed to have reached China and Japan, but most of what I've
>>> seen is very vague...only that he was seen as a military general in
>>> China, but no online photos of iconography. Did Roman Mithraism really
>>> reach China and Japan?
>>>
>>>
>>> Aeon
>>----
>>You mean Persian Mithraism?
>>It is believed that "An-Chin-Ga" ,  a Parthian prince took the teachings (in
disguise of Manichaean beliefs) to Tibet and Eastern China.
>>I find you the sources later.  
>>  

Dear Michael,

There are some of us modern followers around, and yes solo pratice is possible
imho, have a read of my books which cover some of the modern revival

http://www.amazon.com/Mysteries-Mithras-Belief-Shaped-Christian/dp/1594770271/

and www.stellarmagic.co.uk

Regards,
Nabarz

--- In mithras@yahoogroups.com, "MichaelS" <msegers@...> wrote:
>
> Just out of curiosity, what would "practicing modern Mithraists" do?
>
> I've had a strange fascination with Mithras for some time.  I've read
everything pertinent to Mithras that I can get my hands (or Internet connection)
on.
>
> Any suggestions?  Can one be a solitary Mithraist?
>
> Michael
>
>
> --- In mithras@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <robertdcarver@> wrote:
> >
> > Are there any groups of practicing modern Mithraists? Especially in New York
City?
> >
>

--- In mithras@yahoogroups.com, "Aeon" <aeonforce01@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know anything about Roman Mithraism in China and Japan? It
> was supposed to have reached China and Japan, but most of what I've
> seen is very vague...only that he was seen as a military general in
> China, but no online photos of iconography. Did Roman Mithraism really
> reach China and Japan?
>
>
> Aeon


This thread on CHF was added to today, for them as still interested:
http://tinyurl.com/y9glchx

Minneapolis, anyone?

Masoud Borbor wrote:
>
>
> There I think are some in Persia
>
> 2009/11/17 Benjamin Pierce <benjamin.pierce@...
> <mailto:benjamin.pierce@...>>
>
>
>
>     Might. I'm in Wisconsin. Others.
>
>     On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 6:56 AM, Robert D. C
>     <robertdcarver@... <mailto:robertdcarver@...>> wrote:
>
>         Or other individuals, who might be interested in actually
>         forming a Mithraeum?
>
>         --- In mithras@yahoogroups.com
>         <mailto:mithras@yahoogroups.com>, "inamicalux"
>         <inamicalux@...> wrote:
>         >
>         > Groups I am unsure.
>         >
>
>
>
>
>         ------------------------------------
>
>         Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>            (Yahoo! ID required)
>
>            mithras-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>         <mailto:mithras-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Just out of curiosity, what would "practicing modern Mithraists" do?

I've had a strange fascination with Mithras for some time.  I've read everything
pertinent to Mithras that I can get my hands (or Internet connection) on.

Any suggestions?  Can one be a solitary Mithraist?

Michael


--- In mithras@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <robertdcarver@...> wrote:
>
> Are there any groups of practicing modern Mithraists? Especially in New York
City?
>

Or other individuals, who might be interested in actually forming a Mithraeum?

--- In mithras@yahoogroups.com, "inamicalux" <inamicalux@...> wrote:
>
> Groups I am unsure.
>

Groups I am unsure.

Are there any groups of practicing modern Mithraists? Especially in New York
City?

Hi,

In case anyone interested, I am doing a talk in the Roman city of Bath on
Stellar Magic, Mithras, and related subjects.

Regards,
Nabarz

A talk on 'Stellar Magic' by Payam Nabarz, he will be talking on his latest
book:

Stellar Magic A practical guide to the rites of the Moon, Planets, Stars &
Constellations.

http://www.stellarmagic.co.uk

Host: Omphalos Magickal Moot
Date: Sunday, 08 November 2009
Time: 14:00 - 17:00
Location: Upstairs at the Huntsman Pub
Street: 1 Terrace Walk, North Parade
Town/City: Bath, United Kingdom