Sorry should have signed off!!


Peter Clark
(Lecturer in Religious Studies
Chester College
University of Liverpool
UK)
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--- Peter Clark <peter_clark47@...> wrote:
> From: "Peter Clark" <peter_clark47@...>
>
> All attempts to identify the plant have failed, but
> see e.g. RG Wasson's
> "Soma divine plant of immortality". M. Boyce has
> suggested the ephwedra
> plant as being the most likely candidate.
>
> Peter
>
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please don't look for a Persian word in and English
dictionary, Homa or Haoma ( Farhang Moin - the best
Persain dictionary ) writes:
Mytholigical bird, thought to live on the top of the
mountain ( it is almost the same as Volcan- the God of
fire and Volcano ) brought fire to earth, Djamshid (
the mythological king - see Avesta - Ferdowsi's
Shahname )gave the fire to his people , also named the
first day of Spring Norouz or New Day, for the
celebration.
Also Haoma - a remedy for for those who are wounded in
war, the grass can be found in Demavand Mountain, it
is now fourty miles east of Tehran, the highest
mountain in Middle East 5783 meters high.
>

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All attempts to identify the plant have failed, but see e.g. RG Wasson's
"Soma divine plant of immortality". M. Boyce has suggested the ephwedra
plant as being the most likely candidate.

Peter
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On Wed, 15 Mar 2000, Bernard Curry wrote:

> As a working Mithraist, I have an understandable interest in
> the Haoma-Soma mystery. The mystery, so it seems, is that Haoma
> (Gathic) and Soma (Vedic) are terms for an intoxicant that was
> used back in the times before the bifurcation of Vedism and its
> counterpart in prehistoric Iran. No one has ever been able to
> identify the intoxicant.
>
??  The Dictionary of Folklore describes it as "the astringent, narcotic
juice of _Sarcostemma viminale_".  Is this wrong?  Never tried to find the
plant myself.

-- Dick Eney

there are/were MANY Orders of St Michael
do you have more info.


Flower of Fire wrote:

> From: "Flower of Fire" <ontonaut@...>
>
> 8008
>
> >The most probable explanation for such an intoxicant is >that
> >it was Amanita Muscaria, a hallucinogenic mushroom that is
> >probably still used in the area (the Caucasus Mountains) >from
> >which those ancient peoples migrated into Iran and India.) >An
> >even more probable source is psylocybin mushrooms.
>
>      The brew produced from Syrian Rue seeds that I mentioned would greatly
> amplify the effects of both amanita and psilocybe.
>
>      Has anyone else ever heard of the Order of St. Michael? If so, can you
> verify or repudiate their use of Syrian Rue and the old Mithraeums?
>
>                                                ZerO)+
>
> Telesis Foundation for Applied Memetics
> http://telesis.veindance.com
>
> Ubergoo Enterprises: Cash from Chaos
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8008

>The most probable explanation for such an intoxicant is >that
>it was Amanita Muscaria, a hallucinogenic mushroom that is
>probably still used in the area (the Caucasus Mountains) >from
>which those ancient peoples migrated into Iran and India.) >An
>even more probable source is psylocybin mushrooms.

      The brew produced from Syrian Rue seeds that I mentioned would greatly
amplify the effects of both amanita and psilocybe.

      Has anyone else ever heard of the Order of St. Michael? If so, can you
verify or repudiate their use of Syrian Rue and the old Mithraeums?

                                                ZerO)+





Telesis Foundation for Applied Memetics
http://telesis.veindance.com

Ubergoo Enterprises: Cash from Chaos
http://www.angelfire.com/biz2/ubergoo/index.html


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As a working Mithraist, I have an understandable interest in
the Haoma-Soma mystery. The mystery, so it seems, is that Haoma
(Gathic) and Soma (Vedic) are terms for an intoxicant that was
used back in the times before the bifurcation of Vedism and its
counterpart in prehistoric Iran. No one has ever been able to
identify the intoxicant.

The most probable explanation for such an intoxicant is that
it was Amanita Muscaria, a hallucinogenic mushroom that is
probably still used in the area (the Caucasus Mountains) from
which those ancient peoples migrated into Iran and India.) An
even more probable source is psylocybin mushrooms. Between the
two, the psylocybin seems more likely because it is found in cow
manure and the ancient Caucasians were probably herdsmen.

A problem is that there is no lore to indicate that mushrooms
were the source of the intoxicant and besides it apparently
was some kind of liquid. The Mayans, who used psylocybins, left
artwork depicting the mushrooms. Similar artwork has been found
in Africa and, I think, in Europe. But, apparently, nothing has
been found pertinent to the Magic or pre-Zarathustrian religious
practicies.

There is however a _possible_ explanation. I present this from
a purely hypothetical perspective as curious and interesting.
Investigate it if you are interested but if you quote me you are
dumb. You believed that already anyhow.

It appears that indigeneous peoples in some areas where the
psylocybins are common have learned that, not only can
hallucinogenic effects be acheived by ingesting the mushrooms
but, the hallucinogenic content of the mushrooms, after they have
been ingested and processed by stock, i.e., reindeer, cattle,
etc., are then excreted in the urine of the animal. The urine
can then be drunk and the effects of the hallucinogens are more
potent then when the mushroom itself is ingested.

That would explain why Zarathustra condemned the practice of
drinking Haoma as a "filthy" habit. It would also explain why
the Zoroastrians of a later period kept a sacred bull, i.e.,
for its hallucinogenic urine+.

So, maybe the source of the Mithraic Tableaus was nothing more
than a few sips of bull piss.

Bernard Curry
***************************************************************
The price of liberty--the eternal vigil--is a vigil against
authority that begins within ourselves as individuals and
within the groups to which we belong.--Bernard Curry

Email    : bccom@...
Web Site :
****************************************************************

>From: scribe@...
>Reply-To: mithras@onelist.com
>To: mithras@onelist.com, mithras@onelist.com
>Subject: Re: [mithras] Some info. on Mithraic liturgy
>Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 04:01:52 GMT
>
>From: scribe@...
>
> > From: "Peter Clark" <peter_clark47@...>
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "Vishal Mehra" <bayboo@...>
> > >Reply-To: mithras@onelist.com
> > >To: mithras@onelist.com
> > >Subject: [mithras] Some info. on Mithraic liturgy
> > >Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 02:02:59 -0800
> > >
> > >From: "Vishal Mehra" <bayboo@...>
> > >
> > >In response to Peter Clarke's and Diana's message.  I have a
>suggestion.
> > >Maybe a visit to Payam Nabraz's site would make a good starting point.
> > >
> > >There is a prayer called the Yasht 10 of the Zorastrian Faith that is
> > >devoted exclusively to Mithra.  The problem is that it does not shed
>light
> > >on the method of performing the prayers.  I have tracked down a scholar
> > >of the Zend Avesta and am trying to get him to shed light on the
>subject.
> > >I will share any info. that comes up.  In the meanwhile if any one
>knows
> > >what
> > >the terms hoama, baresma, daevas etc. mean, pls. enlighten me too.
> >
> >
> > hoama - then plant used in ritual, the Avestan equivalent to Soma
> >
> > baresma - wires or twigs which are used in ritual
> >
> > daevas - demons
> >
> > who is your scholar?
> >
> >
>Thanks for the info--if you mean me, Diana, the scholar I was talking about
>is
>D. Jason Cooper.  I just got hold of Ulansey's book, but it is not helpful
>at
>all with regard to liturgy.

Cooper is, in my opinion, not a scholar.

Peter
> >
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> >
> >
> >
>
>
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On Wed, 15 Mar 2000, behrouz kia wrote:

> --- Flower of Fire <ontonaut@...> wrote:
> > From: "Flower of Fire" <ontonaut@...>
> >
> > >hoama - then plant used in ritual, the Avestan
> > equivalent > to Soma
> >

> Homa, Haoma as you wrote is not a flower but a bird, a
> bird that carries fire, a God like bird, a sacred bird
> mentioned in almost every Persian litrature and
> mythology. Homa is the bird, according to the Persian
> Mythology , who gave Djamshid, the king of Persia, the
> fire to be given to people. It is what Mythra gave as
> a present to the people on earth. This fire was later
> used as the holly fire is Zeroasterianism, Or
> Zarathosht religion which is the first religion , as
> we call today religion, in the world.

Perhaps the material drink haoma was named to honor the divine Bird.  Many
European and American plants were given the names of saints and angels --
some because of their growing cycle (they appeared, or blossomed, or bore
fruit, around the time of a particular saint's day), and some because
their medicinal properties were effective against a disease which a
particular saint also was invoked to cure.

> Avesta writes as Zaratosht says what Ahuromazda, the
> God of the Zaratoshtees, said:
> I gave Mehr ( mithra ) the seat in heaven to guide the
> people to truth, good deed, good thought and good talk.
> So, Homa, or Haoma is the what Jebrail is to Semitic
> (Judaism, Christianity, Islam ) religions.
>
Jebrail (Gabriel) is the messenger of God (Yahweh, that is), but most of
us know of him as the bearer of the trumpet which will wake the dead.  For
that reason, if I recall correctly, the ghostly pack of hunting dogs
which run with the Wild Hunt are called "Gabriel's ratches [hounds]",
since they rouse and chase the spirits of the wicked.  (But don't take
chances with them -- they'll hunt virtuous people too, if they get the
opportunity!)

-- Dick Eney

8008

>Homa is the bird, according to the Persian
>Mythology , who gave Djamshid, the king of Persia, the
>fire to be given to people. It is what Mythra gave as
>a present to the people on earth.

>So, Homa, or Haoma is the what Jebrail is to Sematic(
>Judaism, Christianity, Islam ) religions.

      Or Prometheus. Or Lucifer. Interesting.

                                                 ZerO)+



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--- Flower of Fire <ontonaut@...> wrote:
> From: "Flower of Fire" <ontonaut@...>
>
> 8008
>
> >hoama - then plant used in ritual, the Avestan
> equivalent > to Soma
>
>      I recall reading a message on the list which
> said that the seeds of
> Syrian Rue are burned as an incense to Mitra by the
> Parsees.
>
>      Recently, I was told of a mystical group in
> Europe during the Middle
> Ages (and perhaps later) called the Order of St.
> Michael, whose initiation
> consisted of drinking a potion made from Syrian Rue
> and spending the night
> in an old Mithraic temple. I could not find any
> documentation for this,
> though.
>
>      I do know that such a potion is a powerful MAO
> inhibitor. I have drank
> it myself (in preparation for consuming a brew of
> psychotria viridis, the
> active ingredient of the Amazonian "ayahuasca" or
> "yage" potion). While the
> brew of Syrian Rue does not seem to be "psychedelic"
> in and of itself, it
> does produce a definite hypnotic-type trance state.
>
>                                             ZerO)+
>
> ##

   I think I should introduce myself as this is my
first comment thought I have been reading a lot on my
mail
I am an Iranian, a MEHRI, or what you call Mithraist.
The word Mehr in Persian is the same as Mithra, Sun or
Sun God, what ever you want to call.
Homa, Haoma as you wrote is not a flower but a bird, a
bird that carries fire, a God like bird, a sacred bird
mentioned in almost every Persian litrature and
mythology. Homa is the bird, according to the Persian
Mythology , who gave Djamshid, the king of Persia, the
fire to be given to people. It is what Mythra gave as
a present to the people on earth. This fire was later
used as the holly fire is Zeroasterianism, Or
Zarathosht religion which is the first religion , as
we call today religion, in the world.
Avesta writes as Zaratosht says what Ahuromazda, the
God of the Zaratoshtees, said:
I gave Mehr ( mithra ) the seat in heaven to guide the
people to truth, good deed, good thought and good
talk.
So, Homa, or Haoma is the what Jebrail is to Sematic(
Judaism, Christianity, Islam ) religions.

Behrouz Kia
>
>
>
>
>
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--- Flower of Fire <ontonaut@...> wrote:
> From: "Flower of Fire" <ontonaut@...>
>
> 8008
>
> >hoama - then plant used in ritual, the Avestan
> equivalent > to Soma
>
>      I recall reading a message on the list which
> said that the seeds of
> Syrian Rue are burned as an incense to Mitra by the
> Parsees.
>
>      Recently, I was told of a mystical group in
> Europe during the Middle
> Ages (and perhaps later) called the Order of St.
> Michael, whose initiation
> consisted of drinking a potion made from Syrian Rue
> and spending the night
> in an old Mithraic temple. I could not find any
> documentation for this,
> though.
>
>      I do know that such a potion is a powerful MAO
> inhibitor. I have drank
> it myself (in preparation for consuming a brew of
> psychotria viridis, the
> active ingredient of the Amazonian "ayahuasca" or
> "yage" potion). While the
> brew of Syrian Rue does not seem to be "psychedelic"
> in and of itself, it
> does produce a definite hypnotic-type trance state.
>
>                                             ZerO)+
>
> ##

   I think I should introduce myself as this is my
first comment thought I have been reading a lot on my
mail
I am an Iranian, a MEHRI, or what you call Mithraist.
The word Mehr in Persian is the same as Mithra, Sun or
Sun God, what ever you want to call.
Homa, Haoma as you wrote is not a flower but a bird, a
bird that carries fire, a God like bird, a sacred bird
mentioned in almost every Persian litrature and
mythology. Homa is the bird, according to the Persian
Mythology , who gave Djamshid, the king of Persia, the
fire to be given to people. It is what Mythra gave as
a present to the people on earth. This fire was later
used as the holly fire is Zeroasterianism, Or
Zarathosht religion which is the first religion , as
we call today religion, in the world.
Avesta writes as Zaratosht says what Ahuromazda, the
God of the Zaratoshtees, said:
I gave Mehr ( mithra ) the seat in heaven to guide the
people to truth, good deed, good thought and good
talk.
So, Homa, or Haoma is the what Jebrail is to Sematic(
Judaism, Christianity, Islam ) religions.

Behrouz Kia
>
>
>
>
>
______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at
> http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>
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> Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees.  Apply
> NOW!
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>
>

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8008

>hoama - then plant used in ritual, the Avestan equivalent > to Soma

      I recall reading a message on the list which said that the seeds of
Syrian Rue are burned as an incense to Mitra by the Parsees.

      Recently, I was told of a mystical group in Europe during the Middle
Ages (and perhaps later) called the Order of St. Michael, whose initiation
consisted of drinking a potion made from Syrian Rue and spending the night
in an old Mithraic temple. I could not find any documentation for this,
though.

      I do know that such a potion is a powerful MAO inhibitor. I have drank
it myself (in preparation for consuming a brew of psychotria viridis, the
active ingredient of the Amazonian "ayahuasca" or "yage" potion). While the
brew of Syrian Rue does not seem to be "psychedelic" in and of itself, it
does produce a definite hypnotic-type trance state.

                                             ZerO)+






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Salvete

Sorry, I forgot that most people in this list is more acquainted with
oriental aspects rather than traditional roman aspects.

A very very short summary. The household cult was mainly performed by the
paterfamilias ("Father of Family") and one of its features was the worship
of the spirits of the household. These were mainly the Lares, Manes, Penates
and the Genius (= guardian spirit) of the paterfamilias.
The Lares were Lares Familiares and Lares Loci. The first were the guardian
spirits of the Family (firstly there was only one Lar Familiaris) and
followed the family everywhere. The Lares Loci were the guardian spirits of
the place where the house was built (represented by serpents). The Manes
were the spirits of the ancestors. The Penates watches over the storeroom
(they were later absorbed by the two Lares). The Genius of the paterfamilias
watched - of course - over the paterfamilias (this would later become the
root of the Imperial cult, where the Genius of the Emperor was worshiped,
the Emperor being the paterfamilas of all the Roman nation). All these
deities were worshiped in a niche called Lararium, of which I've sent you an
example.
During the Kalends, Nones and Ides of a month, the paterfamilias would offer
a sacrifice before the Lararium.

Of course this has nothing to do with the cult of Mithras and has nothing
that we can call "Mystery". Nevertheless, the composition of the Lararium
may have had some influence upon the composition of the Tauroctony, and
could as well have had some weight in the Roman worshipper's interpretation
of the Tauroctony.

Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus

8008

>Could it be that the Tauroctony is a kind of "Cosmic >Lararium"?

      Could you please give a general explanation of this Lararium and its
purpose and meaning. I do not really really understand the "household cult".

      Thanks.

                                               ZerO)+



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Salvete

>> the Roman/greek Liturgy of mithras we have *NO* good Info on.
>
>Does anyone Out There have a reference?  Those who are coming to MithraCon
could
>look it up in Yale, then.
The inscriptions found at the Mithraeum of Sta.Prisca and included in
Vermaseren's "Mithras: the secret God" provide a good clue for Mithraic
liturgy.

Now another thing. Scholars use to look at greek and oriental art in order
to research the origin of the Tauroctony scene. Ok. Besides all the
astrological/astronomical components, there is a striking similarity with
the composition of the Roman traditional lararium (sent in attachment). The
example I've sent is not "very" good. There are other lararia which show the
same characters with the central white figure (genius of the paterfamilias)
before an altar previously to offering a sacrifice. The serpent is the Lar
of the place, and thus a chtonic creature. The two twin figures on each side
of the genius are the Lares Familiaris. Of course we cannot interpret
Mithraism in the light of the traditional household cult, but the latter
could have had some influence in the composition of the Tauroctony image: we
usually have the serpent BELOW the altar of sacrifice and ready to receive
it, the Genius Who is going to offer the sacrifice (like Mithras) and the
Lares Who as servants correspond to the dadophori in the Tauroctony scene.
Could it be that the Tauroctony is a kind of "Cosmic Lararium"?

Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus

> Hi, all; am back from my weekend in DC.

The Cybele talk went well, but shall have to re-shoot most of my slides, as they
were rather dark.  Fortunately, I do my own darkroom work.


> the Roman/greek Liturgy of mithras we have *NO* good Info on.

Does anyone Out There have a reference?  Those who are coming to MithraCon could
look it up in Yale, then.

BTW, we got another registration today!  Hooray!  Would like to get a few more,
though...

jane

scribe@... wrote:

>
> >
> > daevas - demons
> >
> > who is your scholar?
> >
> >
> Thanks for the info--if you mean me, Diana, the scholar I was talking about is
> D. Jason Cooper.  I just got hold of Ulansey's book, but it is not helpful at
> all with regard to liturgy.

the Roman/greek Liturgy of mithras we have *NO* good Info on.

>
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
>
> -------------------------------------------------
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>
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> From: "Peter Clark" <peter_clark47@...>
>
>
>
> >From: "Vishal Mehra" <bayboo@...>
> >Reply-To: mithras@onelist.com
> >To: mithras@onelist.com
> >Subject: [mithras] Some info. on Mithraic liturgy
> >Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 02:02:59 -0800
> >
> >From: "Vishal Mehra" <bayboo@...>
> >
> >In response to Peter Clarke's and Diana's message.  I have a suggestion.
> >Maybe a visit to Payam Nabraz's site would make a good starting point.
> >
> >There is a prayer called the Yasht 10 of the Zorastrian Faith that is
> >devoted exclusively to Mithra.  The problem is that it does not shed light
> >on the method of performing the prayers.  I have tracked down a scholar
> >of the Zend Avesta and am trying to get him to shed light on the subject.
> >I will share any info. that comes up.  In the meanwhile if any one knows
> >what
> >the terms hoama, baresma, daevas etc. mean, pls. enlighten me too.
>
>
> hoama - then plant used in ritual, the Avestan equivalent to Soma
>
> baresma - wires or twigs which are used in ritual
>
> daevas - demons
>
> who is your scholar?
>
>
Thanks for the info--if you mean me, Diana, the scholar I was talking about is
D. Jason Cooper.  I just got hold of Ulansey's book, but it is not helpful at
all with regard to liturgy.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> PERFORM CPR ON YOUR APR!
> Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds!  Get rates as low as
> 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees.
> Apply NOW!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/2121/3/_/474549/_/953023439/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>


-------------------------------------------------
This message was sent via http://webmail.his.com.
http://www.his.com/

>From: "Vishal Mehra" <bayboo@...>
>Reply-To: mithras@onelist.com
>To: mithras@onelist.com
>Subject: [mithras] Some info. on Mithraic liturgy
>Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 02:02:59 -0800
>
>From: "Vishal Mehra" <bayboo@...>
>
>In response to Peter Clarke's and Diana's message.  I have a suggestion.
>Maybe a visit to Payam Nabraz's site would make a good starting point.
>
>There is a prayer called the Yasht 10 of the Zorastrian Faith that is
>devoted exclusively to Mithra.  The problem is that it does not shed light
>on the method of performing the prayers.  I have tracked down a scholar
>of the Zend Avesta and am trying to get him to shed light on the subject.
>I will share any info. that comes up.  In the meanwhile if any one knows
>what
>the terms hoama, baresma, daevas etc. mean, pls. enlighten me too.


hoama - then plant used in ritual, the Avestan equivalent to Soma

baresma - wires or twigs which are used in ritual

daevas - demons

who is your scholar?

Peter
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Hi everyone,

As most of you probably gathered I haven't dont that much communicating is a
system like this.  I accidently sent one of the emails by an inadvertent
slip of the finger.

First of all, I can remember who asked, but with regard to liturgies and
prayer...  In one part of the development of Mithraism, Mithra was an
important part of the conflict between Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu, the
gods of Zoroastrianism.  In the cosmogony, Mithra mediated between the two.
However, Mithra was the god of contracts and not the greatest god in this
complex.  He is connected also with Zurvanism.

There is a prayer in the sacred writings of Zoroastrianism concerning
Mithra.  It is called the Mithra Yasht.  I have collected a number of books
on Zoroastrianism but none containing this.  If you find it, let me know.

Also, if anyone has anymore detailed information on the 7 degrees, other
than their names, I would like to see it.  If this request is redundant to
many of you, you can email me directly at tamarncenter@...

Thanks, dena
>From: James Fishwick <fishies_plaice@...>
>Reply-To: mithras@onelist.com
>To: "INTERNET:mithras@onelist.com" <mithras@onelist.com>
>Subject: Re: [mithras] Leo
>Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 17:26:13 -0500
>
> >From: "Dena Holman" <denancenter@...>
> >
> >But I don't know much about the degrees of Mithraism--
> >  the raven
>
>Corvax, associated with Mercury
>
> >  the secret
>
>More often called the male-bride than the "secret". Nymphus, associated
>with Venus.
>
> >  the fighters
>
>The soldier, Miles. Associated with Mars (obviously!)
>
> >  the lion or she-lion (connected with a variety of goddesses of love)
>
>Leo- Associated with Jupiter
>
> >  the Persians
>
>Perses- associated with the Moon.
>
> >  the sun-runners and
>
>Heliodromus (spelling?)- associated with the Sun (big surprise!)
>
> >  the fathers...
>
>Pater- associated with Saturn.
>
>James

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>From: "Vishal Mehra" <bayboo@...>
>
>Hi, James,
>
>The attached pic. is my favourite one.  Let me know if you get it all
right.
>Vishal  <

I didn't get any pic :(

James

Hi, James,

The attached pic. is my favourite one.  Let me know if you get it all right.
Vishal


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>From: "Dena Holman" <denancenter@...>
>
>I don't have any specifics for you on that issue regarding Mithras, but a
>sistrum was a sign of the goddess Isis in Rome.

That's why I was asking the question- I've been working for quite a while
on a theory that the Mithraic religion was actually an Eygptian-based cult.

James

>From: "Dena Holman" <denancenter@...>
>
>But I don't know much about the degrees of Mithraism--
>  the raven

Corvax, associated with Mercury

>  the secret

More often called the male-bride than the "secret". Nymphus, associated
with Venus.

>  the fighters

The soldier, Miles. Associated with Mars (obviously!)

>  the lion or she-lion (connected with a variety of goddesses of love)

Leo- Associated with Jupiter

>  the Persians

Perses- associated with the Moon.

>  the sun-runners and

Heliodromus (spelling?)- associated with the Sun (big surprise!)

>  the fathers...

Pater- associated with Saturn.

James

To:  Vishal Mehra

Mithraism has connections not only to Zoroastrianism but also to Hinduism.
In the Hindi scheme, Mitra (spelling variation) was a minor diety.  As the
solar religions became more predominate, Mithraism as practiced in Rome
undoubtedly assimilated to some degree with the cult of Sol Invictus, that
was decidedly a different cult.  Another sun cult also existed at the same
time-- the cult of Sol Indiges.  Syncretism was rampant at that time.  In
fact, Constantine who is erroneously considered a Christian placed an image
of himself in a Christian Church along with an image of Cybele.  He called
his own image Sol Invictus.  See Holy Blood, Holy Grail on the truth about
Constantine, the so-called Christian of the Holy Roman Empire.
>From: "Vishal Mehra" <bayboo@...>
>Reply-To: mithras@onelist.com
>To: mithras@onelist.com
>Subject: [mithras] Some info. on Mithraic liturgy
>Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 02:02:59 -0800
>
>In response to Peter Clarke's and Diana's message.  I have a suggestion.
>Maybe a visit to Payam Nabraz's site would make a good starting point.
>
>There is a prayer called the Yasht 10 of the Zorastrian Faith that is
>devoted exclusively to Mithra.  The problem is that it does not shed light
>on the method of performing the prayers.  I have tracked down a scholar
>of the Zend Avesta and am trying to get him to shed light on the subject.
>I will share any info. that comes up.  In the meanwhile if any one knows
>what
>the terms hoama, baresma, daevas etc. mean, pls. enlighten me too.
>
>I have a couple of pictures of Mithra if any one is interested.  They were
>downloaded from the net but I can't remember the site.  If anyone would
>like
>them please send me a msg. and I will send them to you.
>
>Cassius, you seem to know the most.  Please share your knowledge of the
>Lord
>of wide pastures with me.  All information is welcome.
>
>Rgds.
>Vishal
>
>
>MailCity. Secure Email Anywhere, Anytime!
>http://www.mailcity.com

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The dream link to Isis worship was also associated with Serapis.  The
sistrum or metal rattle was employed by adherents in services to Isis in
Rome.

But I don't know much about the degrees of Mithraism--
   the raven
   the secret
   the fighters
   the lion or she-lion (connected with a variety of goddesses of love)
   the Persians
   the sun-runners and
   the fathers...

Does anyone have any specifics on these?



>From: "J. T. Sibley" <jrsibley@...>
>Reply-To: mithras@onelist.com
>To: mithras@onelist.com
>Subject: Re: [mithras] Leo
>Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 16:43:48 -0500
>
>
>
>Antonio Grilo wrote:
>
> > Yes, Leo is traditionally associated with the sistrum. This is shown for
> > example in the Sta. Prisca (if I'm not in error...) Mithraeum,
>
>CIMRM Mon. number?
>
> > where the attributes of the several grades are shown. As you know, the
>sistrum
> > is
> > traditionally associated with Egyptian Mysteries. Could this be a
>connection
> > to Serapis? Could this be a connection with some Isiac or Serapian
>grade?
>
>I've also seen Mithraic statues with ankhs...neo-Egyptian element?  I'm
>finding
>a *lot* of similarities here and there between Mithraic and Cybele
>iconography,
>getting some ideas on how much Mithraism borrowed from the cult of Cybele,
>which
>goes way back...what, to some 1400 BCE???
>
> >
> > On the other hand, Leo is also assotiated with fire (the attributes of
> > Vulcanus are shown), which thus also connect with some statuettes of the
> > Lion-headed-God.
>
>Or *knowledge* of the role of the Leonticephalus.
>
>jane
>

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I don't have any specifics for you on that issue regarding Mithras, but a
sistrum was a sign of the goddess Isis in Rome.

Also, I read that there were 7 levels in Mithraism--  or 7 degrees

>From: "J. T. Sibley" <jrsibley@...>
>Reply-To: mithras@onelist.com
>To: mithras@onelist.com
>Subject: Re: [mithras] Leo
>Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 16:40:45 -0500
>
>
>
>James Fishwick wrote:
>
> > From: James Fishwick <fishies_plaice@...>
> >
> > Okay, quick question to everyone.
> > I read in a slim quide to the Roman religions (Religion and the Romans
>by
> > Ken Dowden) that the Leo grade were traditionally associated (along with
> > lots of other things) with the sistrum rattle- is this correct? Can
>anyone
> > provide more info about this, or pictures?
>
>Correct.  Sistrum, thunderbolt, and fire-shovel.  Vol. 1 of CIMRM has it,
>Mitreo Felicissima I think is how it's spelled, i think (I *still* don't
>have
>my Vermaseren back, hint, hint, Mr. C!) and I think in the first third of
>that
>book.
>
>found the reference, was right.  Leo grade.  Ostia: Felicissima Meithraeum.
>CIMRM  Mon. 299; see also Hinnells 1975 vol. 2 plate 10.
>
>jane
>

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Hi, James

I'm glad you noticed we have no archives at onelist.  This means
that Jane and Antonius' info. is not available there.  Could you use
your powers of persuasion to get them to send their reams of knowledge
my way?  If Jane and Antonius see these msg.  I am saying the
magic word - PLEASE :-0

Peter, thanks for yr. msg.  Where can I get a copy of yr. book.
I am in India, which is pretty much the back of beyond as far as
special interest literature is concerned.

Payam,
It was great to see yr. post.  I have been trying to get in touch with you
for the last six months.  Have any of my several msgs. ever reached you ?
Congratulations on a superlative site.  It was resposible for kindling
my interest in Mithra.  Your input could also help enlighten a lot of us.
I look forward to reading yr. posts in future.

Lastly, all my friends on this list.  In case my msgs. appear misspelt or
border on grammatical blasphemy, it is because my typing sucks.
Vishal


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Hi folks,

I just visited the list homepage on Onelist, and have made a couple of
changes to the settings.

First, I discovered that there have been NO archives for this list. ACK! I've
just set Onelist to save the archives so that stuff won't be lost for good.
On a whim I set the list so that *anyone* may view the archives, even if
they're not a member. (My hope is that once browsers get a chance to sample
the ever-present wisdom of the subscribers, they'll naturally have to join
and become regulars!) ;)  On the serious side, if anyone objects to this or
it becomes a pain for some reason, the archives can be easily set to "members
only".

The second change is that there is now an automatic "welcome letter" sent to
all new subscribers. It gives two important bits of info... that the list
homepage (http://www.onelist.com/group/mithras) has good stuff like a
wonderful collection of links, and also that one must go there to
unsubscribe. The letter mentions clearly that one can *not* unsubscribe by
posting "unsubscribe" to the list. Hopefully that'll save a few headaches.

Finally... I notice that there is space at the list homepage for storing
pictures. Anyone out there have neat Mithraic images they'd be willing to
share? :)

Thanks,

Cassius