midatlanticretro : Messages : 6451-6480 of 30985

Today I read those Mauchly interviews in more detail.

On page 19 of the first link that I mentioned yesterday (http://invention.smithsonian.org/downloads/fa_cohc_tr_mauc700622.pdf), he said, “Burks (he was another prof - EK) and I accepted the appointments as instructors on the Moore School staff, with the assurance by Dr. Chambers, that even though the pay was not great, it was always possible in an engineering school to supplement this by varous other contracts on jobs which needed to be done. This indeed turned out to be the case, especially with the war developing. They began getting some contracts from the military agencies, such as the Signal Corps…”

But what's MORE interesting is that on pages 20-21, he describes the big problem in great detail:

“Then, at some point, I don't remember the exact time, I began to get involved in a project which had been obtained from the Signal Corps in New Jersey. They wanted calculations made on a theoretical basis as to what radiation patterns you would expect in various kinds of antennas. These were antennas that would be used in radar work where you have a small antenna somewhere near the focus of the large reflecting dish, as they called it, and so there were actually two teams working on correlated projects there. One set of people tried to make experimental measurements of the apparatus that I was trying to get the calculations made on. These were essentially parabolic reflectors, but with different portions of the parabolic reflector removed, which would affect half the distribution of radiation away from the target, and might conceivably make a little more energy available at the target, but certain, although the pattern of how, what they called the side lobes of the antenna pattern, behaved. In doing that, they came up with some pretty serious implementation problems. Nobody seemed to know just how to arrange the calculations actually to do this. I was given, by the project administrator, Dr. Brainerd, a book from MIT, Stratton's "Electromagnetism", or whatever it was, in which there was a nice integral and some vector functions and said that this is the way you do it. I was also given an assistant, I can't remember his name now, who was an emeritus professor of physics and, I guess, he had for many years probably taught the first year physics course and been retired. So far as I can remember, I spent considerable time in trying to tell him what we were trying to do, and finally had to report to Dr. Brainerd that I was wasting more time trying to educate him than he was doing helping me. I didn't want to have that drain on the project any more. But that was not the only problem. The problem was also that at the Moore School, what calculating instruments existed besides the differential analyzer? Practically none. Every engineer, of course, had a slide rule, and every engineer was expected to know how to use a slide rule. Slide rules were good enough for his homework, daily class work, laboratory work, etc. But there was to my knowledge, only one digital desk computer, an old Friden, which was available around the Moore School to do multiplication with, and of course, it could do division if you used it right. They had an adding machine in the main office for the secretary to add up the bills or something. But there was nothing available to me but one desk computing machine, which was there for a very singular purpose; namely, to perform test calculations, as I understood it, to see whether the differential analyzer was correctly set up. If you had the wrong gear ratios into that thing it might produce results which would go wild and not be what you wanted, so you would precalculate on the desk calculator what you ought to get as the first few steps on the first part of the run. If you didn't get that, then you'd know there was something wrong, and look further. I didn't need that for that purpose all the time, so presumably we could, most of the time, use this desk calculator. There was one desk calculator for what we wanted to do. There were literally hundreds of thousands of calculations to be done for each pattern that we were going to develop and they wanted a whole experimental set. ** So the question was how to get more calculating force to bear on this. **” (emphasis mine -- EK)

He continues, “After months and months of this, we came up with some nice antenna patterns. … As I remember, we were always late in the performance, but this is a somewhat chronic thing which develops whenever you have the deadline set by somebody who doesn't understand all the work that's involved to do it. So when you're out after a contract with the Signal Corps and they say: "We want this in six months", you say: "Aye, aye, sir", and take the contract. You worry about it later, whether you can get it in six months.

In the second file (http://invention.smithsonian.org/downloads/fa_cohc_tr_mauc730110.pdf), on page 20, he is asked, “When you were first thinking about writing a proposal [the interviewer means the proposal for ENIAC – EK], the very first proposal or draft proposal as you might call it, who were the people that you talked to in the process of writing this up?”

Mauchly responds, “Well, I had already done the talking before I wrote that up. I talked first, of course, to Eckert in 1941 in that summer course. I continued to talk to him from time to time on this. I was impelled, you might say, to come back to that subject every time that I got fed up with the slowness of the hand calculations on the Signal Corps project”

Go back and read that last reply again: Mauchly says "I was impelled ... to come back to that subject every time that I got fed up with the slowness of the hand calculations on the Signal Corps project" ... he is DIRECTLY and LITERALLY saying that it was the workload from Camp Evans that CAUSED him to stop just thinking about his ideas for a digital computer and to start MAKING it, together with Eckert, even though he knew a digital approach was absolutely far-out at the time, when all the big companies were focused on how to improve analog machines. Digital calculation was as wild an idea then as quantum computing seems today, perhaps moreso.

So this is NOT any speculation. It's already widely known that Mauchly was the "ideas" guy and Eckert was the "techie" guy.

To say it one last time, this is PROOF that the work at Camp Evans was ** THE ** major thing which led to ENIAC.'s construction. Before that time, Mauchly dreamed of a digital computer so (true story) he could make better weather predictions. It was only a dream and a couple of half-built flip-flops on his office desk, without any funding. The Signal Corps project work is what led the Army to give him $61,700, in contract W-670-ORD-4926, aka "Project PX", aka ENIAC -- that's from page 61 of the softcover version of the 1999 book "ENIAC" by Scott McCartney which happens to be on my bookshelf, and which is considered one of the best ENIAC books around; I highly recommend it!)

(McCartney goes on to quote Eckert, who said, "I don't think anybody would have given a young kid twenty-four years old all this money to do something if there hadn't been a war going on .. had John and I been five years older and that much more experienced, we might have 'known' a true electronic computer would not be built."

-----Original Message-----
From: Evan Koblentz [mailto:evan@...]
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 1:53 AM
To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [midatlanticretro] Exciting news for MARCH

This is cool. Tonight I was browsing through an oral history of ENIAC co-inventor John Mauchly, conducted by the Smithsonian back in the 1970s. The history is divided into four parts. On page 18 of the first part (http://invention.smithsonian.org/downloads/fa_cohc_tr_mauc700622.pdf), Mauchly says he turned down a job offer from "Ft. Monmouth or some place like that, Signal Corps in New Jersey" ... that is Camp Evans, a.k.a. InfoAge! So I figured, oh well, we * almost * had a pretty awesome connection ... right!? As it turns out: it wasn't just an almost! Use the "find" tool in this document, and also in the second part at http://invention.smithsonian.org/downloads/fa_cohc_tr_mauc730110.pdf and you'll find LOTS of references to the Signal Corp's computing needs.

In the past we had a lot of anecdotal and circumstantial evidence that Camp Evans was a big user of the Moore School's and Mauchly/Eckert's direct services (and we do have a later contract, from 1947, for using the Moore School's differential analyzer), but now we have HARD PROOF -- along with a large amount of detail and insight -- about how the U.S. Army Signal Corps @ Fort Monmouth, a.k.a. Camp Evans, a.k.a. InfoAge and the MARCH computer museum, was not only the first customer of Mauchly/Eckert (even pre-ENIAC) but was, in fact, A MAJOR REASON for why Mauchly/Eckert invented ENIAC in the first place!!!

It's one thing to have connections to the transistor research at Bell Labs, the "P" in HP, Tektronix, EAI, and Perkin-Elmer -- which we do, on all counts -- but now we can PROVE our connection to the start of the industry itself.

Meanwhile, out in Silicon Valley, the Computer History Museum and their $75 million but STILL not open exhibit is located in the former executive briefing center of Silicon Graphics. Where would you rather have a computer museum? It's a no-brainer if you ask me!!! Wall, N.J. -- Birthplace of a Major Inspiration for ENIAC -- and we can PROVE it in a credible, non-classified, searchable-on-Google document.

As if you all couldn't tell, I am really jazzed about this. Looking forward to bringing this information to the InfoAge weekly board meeting tomorrow (Wed.) night. And speaking more on practical terms, it's a huge asset to one of our first-stage exhibits, re: Computing & Camp Evans.

- EK

#6452

From: "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...>
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 12:31 pm
Subject: RE: Exciting news for MARCH

billdeg

Evan,
Very interesting stuff. I am right there with you...there are plenty of new discoveries to be found to clarify, correct, and refine computer history as it's known today.
Bill

<snip>
They had an adding machine in the main office for the secretary to add up the bills or something. But there was nothing available to me but one desk computing machine, which was there for a very singular purpose; namely, to perform test calculations, as I understood it, to see whether the differential analyzer was correctly set up. If you had the wrong gear ratios into that thing it might produce results which would go wild and not be what you wanted, so you would precalculate on the desk calculator what you ought to get as the first few steps on the first part of the run. If you didn't get that, then you'd know there was something wrong, and look further. I didn't need that for that purpose all the time, so presumably we could, most of the time, use this desk calculator. There was one desk calculator for what we wanted to do. There were literally hundreds of thousands of calculations to be done for each pattern that we were going to develop and they wanted a whole experimental set. ** So the question was how to get more calculating force to bear on this. ** (emphasis mine -- EK)

<snip>

So this is NOT any speculation. It's already widely known that Mauchly was the "ideas" guy and Eckert was the "techie" guy.

To say it one last time, this is PROOF that the work at Camp Evans was ** THE ** major thing which led to ENIAC.'s construction. Before that time, Mauchly dreamed of a digital computer so (true story) he could make better weather predictions. It was only a dream and a couple of half-built flip-flops on his office desk, without any funding. The Signal Corps project work is what led the Army to give him $61,700, in contract W-670-ORD-4926, aka "Project PX", aka ENIAC -- that's from page 61 of the softcover version of the 1999 book "ENIAC" by Scott McCartney which happens to be on my bookshelf, and which is considered one of the best ENIAC books around; I highly recommend it!)

(McCartney goes on to quote Eckert, who said, "I don't think anybody would have given a young kid twenty-four years old all this money to do something if there hadn't been a war going on .. had John and I been five years older and that much more experienced, we might have 'known' a true electronic computer would not be built."

#6453

From: "Jeffrey Frady" <Legodude522@...>
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 6:46 pm
Subject: Re: Next work day

legodude522

I shall be there for the workday Nov. 18th.

On 11/8/07, Bryan Pope <bryan.pope@...> wrote:

Evan wrote:
> Is there a law saying it must be Saturday?
>
Other then the work days have always been on a Saturday? Plus Sunday
gives people a day to "recuperate" from the work day and also not worry
as much about how late the day goes..

Cheers,

Bryan

--
See you spare cowboy...

Reply | Messages in this Topic (15)

#6454

From: "John Allain" <allain@...>
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 8:22 pm
Subject: Re: Exciting news for MARCH

thxi38

> there was to my knowledge, only one digital desk computer, an old Friden,
> which was available around the Moore School to do multiplication with, and
> of course, it could do division if you used it right.

I have one here in good, (not perfect) condition that I could donate for
temporary exhibits.

Totally not programmable BTW, unless you count division as a digit-by-digit
program.

John A.

begin at high digit position EG 100,000X
subtract until zero crossed
     re-add once
     shift 1/10X
repeat until shifted to 1's place

#6455

From: "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...>
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:53 am
Subject: OT: stupid Days Inn

evan947

I went el-cheapo at the VCF last week -- stayed at the Days Inn. Paid in cash because I didn't want to carry around the $$ from selling two computers. Then, they went and charged my credit card also! I couldn't figure out why my online bank statement was missing $400 until today. Called my bank first as a heads-up, then called the motel and complained. They are supposedly refunding my credit card as we speak. But I won't know for sure until Tuesday because of Veterans Day next week. I should've sprung for the extra few dollars and stayed at the Marriott like last year.

#6456

From: "William Donzelli" <wdonzelli@...>
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 2:30 am
Subject: Re: Exciting news for MARCH

toober00

> Go back and read that last reply again: Mauchly says "I was impelled ... to
> come back to that subject every time that I got fed up with the slowness of
> the hand calculations on the Signal Corps project" ... he is DIRECTLY and
> LITERALLY saying that it was the workload from Camp Evans that CAUSED him to
> stop just thinking about his ideas for a digital computer and to start
> MAKING it,

Maybe I am missing something, but where does he directly cite Camp
Evans, in his own words?

The Fort was a busy place back then, and the Camp was home for just
_some_ of microwave work during the war. For example, his citing the
working on the parabolic antenna calculations could have been for the
AN/TRC-5 and -6 microwave relay sets. Those were very probably not
Camp Evans projects, but were indeed Fort projects.

Be careful with the claims...

--
Will, skeptic

#6457

From: "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...>
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 2:54 am
Subject: RE: Exciting news for MARCH

evan947

The "signal corps" part gives it away.  The ft. monmouth signal corp IS
camp evans.  Fred carl can tell you all about the antennas.

-----Original Message-----
From: William Donzelli [mailto:wdonzelli@...]
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 9:31 PM
To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] Exciting news for MARCH

> Go back and read that last reply again: Mauchly says "I was impelled
> ... to come back to that subject every time that I got fed up with the

> slowness of the hand calculations on the Signal Corps project" ... he
> is DIRECTLY and LITERALLY saying that it was the workload from Camp
> Evans that CAUSED him to stop just thinking about his ideas for a
> digital computer and to start MAKING it,

Maybe I am missing something, but where does he directly cite Camp
Evans, in his own words?

The Fort was a busy place back then, and the Camp was home for just
_some_ of microwave work during the war. For example, his citing the
working on the parabolic antenna calculations could have been for the
AN/TRC-5 and -6 microwave relay sets. Those were very probably not Camp
Evans projects, but were indeed Fort projects.

Be careful with the claims...

--
Will, skeptic

Yahoo! Groups Links

#6458

From: "William Donzelli" <wdonzelli@...>
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:18 am
Subject: Re: Exciting news for MARCH

toober00

> The "signal corps" part gives it away. The ft. monmouth signal corp IS
>  camp evans. Fred carl can tell you all about the antennas.

The Fort is (was) a whole bunch bigger than Camp Evans. In fact, Camp
Evans was just one of a few new camps purchased for the expansion in
1940 (or so), well after the Signal Corps set up the Fort in the
1920s.

Camp Evans, and its research, was just a subset of Fort Monmouth - and
actually a small subset at that.

--
Will

#6459

From: "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...>
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:42 am
Subject: RE: Exciting news for MARCH

evan947

I appreciate that you're keeping us on our toes.  Always healthy
(seriously!) to have someone to challenge such assertions and point out
the potential red flags.  I can always count on you and Herb.
(Kidding!!!)

The fact that Mauchly said (p. 20 of the first document), "These were
antennas that would be used in radar work" is a big give-away.  We ** DO
** know for fact that Camp Evans was THE epicenter of radar work.  We
also have a copy of a contract between Camp Evans and the Moore School
for use of their differential analyzer.

There are many people in the InfoAge community who know far more about
Camp Evans' radar history than I ever will. I believe that one of two
conversations between me and them will easily clarify, or rather
double-verify, that Mauchly did indeed mean Camp Evans.

BUT -- Will's email does force me to see a mistake in the claim --
InfoAge's site explains that Camp Evans did not come BACK under military
control until 1941 -- so that at least shows the part about Mauchly
turning down a job there is incorrect, since our base wasn't part of the
military in the 1930s.  I stand corrected!

I believe the more important part, re: his contract work, is still
accurate.

One of these days I will have to re-visit the JM archives at Penn.  The
answer will be there.  All of the JM archives at Penn are sorted
chronologically and are very well indexed.  I (or we!) can easily jump
to the boxes from 1941-1942 when he joined the Moore School and started
getting these contracts.



-----Original Message-----
From: William Donzelli [mailto:wdonzelli@...]
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 10:18 PM
To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] Exciting news for MARCH


> The "signal corps" part gives it away. The ft. monmouth signal corp IS

> camp evans. Fred carl can tell you all about the antennas.

The Fort is (was) a whole bunch bigger than Camp Evans. In fact, Camp
Evans was just one of a few new camps purchased for the expansion in
1940 (or so), well after the Signal Corps set up the Fort in the 1920s.

Camp Evans, and its research, was just a subset of Fort Monmouth - and
actually a small subset at that.

--
Will



Yahoo! Groups Links

#6460

From: "William Donzelli" <wdonzelli@...>
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:04 am
Subject: Re: Exciting news for MARCH

toober00

A few points to consider:

>  The fact that Mauchly said (p. 20 of the first document), "These were
>  antennas that would be used in radar work" is a big give-away.

Perhaps that is what he thought. Maybe that is what he was told
(remember that back then, radar work was at minimum classified as
SECRET). Most people would probably think that work on parabolic
antenna systems back then were for radar, but they can be used for any
high gain antenna way up in frequency. He may have just been assuming
it was for radar work, as memories get fuzzy over the years.

> We ** DO
>  ** know for fact that Camp Evans was THE epicenter of radar work.

Center, yes, but not all. And this must also be qualified as center
for "_ground_ radar that wasn't rewarmed from British designs". For
all any of us know, what Mauchly was referring to may have been some
work farmed out from the Air Forces labs, many hundreds of miles away
but still technically the Signal Corps.

> We
>  also have a copy of a contract between Camp Evans and the Moore School
>  for use of their differential analyzer.

See, this is the good evidence - the stuff that is on paper. Hopefully dated.

Oral histories are notoriously error-prone. Basically, take them with
a big grain of salt.

>  There are many people in the InfoAge community who know far more about
>  Camp Evans' radar history than I ever will. I believe that one of two
>  conversations between me and them will easily clarify, or rather
>  double-verify, that Mauchly did indeed mean Camp Evans.

Hey, maybe you can gather the evidence and verify the claim - it would
be a nice thing to boast. With having such a profound boast, just be
sure to have plenty of evidence from primary, unbiased sources to back
you up, otherwise assholes like me WILL question it. The best primary
sources are the written records in reports and meeting minutes. Next
best are in catalogs and directories. Next is in physical artifacts.
Way down the line are oral histories.

Consider how often computer people like yourself get all bent out of
shape when a company like Microsoft, IBM, or Apple, makes some claim
about being the "first to do X".

--
Will

#6461

From: "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...>
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:18 am
Subject: RE: Exciting news for MARCH

evan947

>>> Hey, maybe you can gather the evidence and verify the claim - it
would be a nice thing to boast. With having such a profound boast, just
be sure to have plenty of evidence from primary, unbiased sources to
back you up, otherwise assholes like me WILL question it. The best
primary sources are the written records in reports and meeting minutes.
Next best are in catalogs and directories. Next is in physical
artifacts. Way down the line are oral histories.

I don't think you are an asshole.  :)

As a professional journalist for the past decade, and more recently as a
wanna-be computer historian, I feel like a fool for making this
grandiose claim before I double- and triple-checked it with independent
sources.  For that, you're absolutely right to call me on it, and I've
got no shame in saying "I was wrong" here in public.

But I'm still sticking to my gut about the other two claims.  Hopefully
I can get down to Penn in the next few weeks to examine some of the
primary sources, written when the events actually happened.

I added "evans_moore.jpg" to the Files section of our Yahoo group.
Download it and have a look!


-----Original Message-----
From: William Donzelli [mailto:wdonzelli@...]
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 1:04 AM
To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] Exciting news for MARCH


A few points to consider:

>  The fact that Mauchly said (p. 20 of the first document), "These were

> antennas that would be used in radar work" is a big give-away.

Perhaps that is what he thought. Maybe that is what he was told
(remember that back then, radar work was at minimum classified as
SECRET). Most people would probably think that work on parabolic antenna
systems back then were for radar, but they can be used for any high gain
antenna way up in frequency. He may have just been assuming it was for
radar work, as memories get fuzzy over the years.

> We ** DO
>  ** know for fact that Camp Evans was THE epicenter of radar work.

Center, yes, but not all. And this must also be qualified as center for
"_ground_ radar that wasn't rewarmed from British designs". For all any
of us know, what Mauchly was referring to may have been some work farmed
out from the Air Forces labs, many hundreds of miles away but still
technically the Signal Corps.

> We
>  also have a copy of a contract between Camp Evans and the Moore
> School  for use of their differential analyzer.

See, this is the good evidence - the stuff that is on paper. Hopefully
dated.

Oral histories are notoriously error-prone. Basically, take them with a
big grain of salt.

>  There are many people in the InfoAge community who know far more
> about  Camp Evans' radar history than I ever will. I believe that one
> of two  conversations between me and them will easily clarify, or
> rather  double-verify, that Mauchly did indeed mean Camp Evans.

Hey, maybe you can gather the evidence and verify the claim - it would
be a nice thing to boast. With having such a profound boast, just be
sure to have plenty of evidence from primary, unbiased sources to back
you up, otherwise assholes like me WILL question it. The best primary
sources are the written records in reports and meeting minutes. Next
best are in catalogs and directories. Next is in physical artifacts. Way
down the line are oral histories.

Consider how often computer people like yourself get all bent out of
shape when a company like Microsoft, IBM, or Apple, makes some claim
about being the "first to do X".

--
Will



Yahoo! Groups Links

#6462

From: "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...>
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:20 am
Subject: RE: Exciting news for MARCH

evan947

PS -- >>> I added "evans_moore.jpg" to the Files section of our Yahoo
group. Download it and have a look!

A few weeks ago, I asked Fred the same question that you're thinking
right now, "How do we KNOW this is from Camp Evans?"  I don't recall his
answer, but I'll look that up and post it here.



-----Original Message-----
From: Evan Koblentz [mailto:evan@...]
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 1:19 AM
To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] Exciting news for MARCH


>>> Hey, maybe you can gather the evidence and verify the claim - it
would be a nice thing to boast. With having such a profound boast, just
be sure to have plenty of evidence from primary, unbiased sources to
back you up, otherwise assholes like me WILL question it. The best
primary sources are the written records in reports and meeting minutes.
Next best are in catalogs and directories. Next is in physical
artifacts. Way down the line are oral histories.

I don't think you are an asshole.  :)

As a professional journalist for the past decade, and more recently as a
wanna-be computer historian, I feel like a fool for making this
grandiose claim before I double- and triple-checked it with independent
sources.  For that, you're absolutely right to call me on it, and I've
got no shame in saying "I was wrong" here in public.

But I'm still sticking to my gut about the other two claims.  Hopefully
I can get down to Penn in the next few weeks to examine some of the
primary sources, written when the events actually happened.

I added "evans_moore.jpg" to the Files section of our Yahoo group.
Download it and have a look!


-----Original Message-----
From: William Donzelli [mailto:wdonzelli@...]
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 1:04 AM
To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] Exciting news for MARCH


A few points to consider:

>  The fact that Mauchly said (p. 20 of the first document), "These were

> antennas that would be used in radar work" is a big give-away.

Perhaps that is what he thought. Maybe that is what he was told
(remember that back then, radar work was at minimum classified as
SECRET). Most people would probably think that work on parabolic antenna
systems back then were for radar, but they can be used for any high gain
antenna way up in frequency. He may have just been assuming it was for
radar work, as memories get fuzzy over the years.

> We ** DO
>  ** know for fact that Camp Evans was THE epicenter of radar work.

Center, yes, but not all. And this must also be qualified as center for
"_ground_ radar that wasn't rewarmed from British designs". For all any
of us know, what Mauchly was referring to may have been some work farmed
out from the Air Forces labs, many hundreds of miles away but still
technically the Signal Corps.

> We
>  also have a copy of a contract between Camp Evans and the Moore
> School  for use of their differential analyzer.

See, this is the good evidence - the stuff that is on paper. Hopefully
dated.

Oral histories are notoriously error-prone. Basically, take them with a
big grain of salt.

>  There are many people in the InfoAge community who know far more
> about  Camp Evans' radar history than I ever will. I believe that one
> of two  conversations between me and them will easily clarify, or
> rather  double-verify, that Mauchly did indeed mean Camp Evans.

Hey, maybe you can gather the evidence and verify the claim - it would
be a nice thing to boast. With having such a profound boast, just be
sure to have plenty of evidence from primary, unbiased sources to back
you up, otherwise assholes like me WILL question it. The best primary
sources are the written records in reports and meeting minutes. Next
best are in catalogs and directories. Next is in physical artifacts. Way
down the line are oral histories.

Consider how often computer people like yourself get all bent out of
shape when a company like Microsoft, IBM, or Apple, makes some claim
about being the "first to do X".

--
Will



Yahoo! Groups Links







Yahoo! Groups Links

#6463

From: "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...>
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:22 am
Subject: While I'm at it...

evan947

Fred also mentioned that, at one time, Vannevar Bush visited (but didn't actually work at) Camp Evans.

Reply | Messages in this Topic (3)

#6464

From: "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...>
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:26 am
Subject: RE: While I'm at it...

evan947

Just remembered -- I think it might be that in the "Directive No." (top right corner), the "EL" indicates "Evans Laboratory". That's us!

Or, as someone indicated by adding an apostrophe to the door of MARCH's basement storage room, "Evan's" laboratory! :)

-----Original Message-----
From: Evan Koblentz [mailto:evan@...]
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 1:23 AM
To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [midatlanticretro] While I'm at it...

Fred also mentioned that, at one time, Vannevar Bush visited (but didn't actually work at) Camp Evans.

Reply | Messages in this Topic (3)

#6465

From: "Bill Pileggi" <wpileggi@...>
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 7:57 am
Subject: IBM PC and related expansion cards/boards offered

wpileggi

I thought I'd offer these items locally, before offering to nation at large.
Just make arrangements for pickup or shipping and they are yours. Donations
appreciated but not required. If no takers, they get scrapped/recycled. Bill
P./KA3AIS

Compaq PLUS Luggable computer...Built-in 9 inch monitor, 5.25 inch
floppy, HDD. Very Dirty.

Everex Color/Monochrome card. Dual 9 pin connectors + composite RCA phono
connector - switch selected. 8 bit ISA.

Seagate ST-251 with defect map (paper print out). Probable Western Digital MFM
controller card + cables. 16 bit ISA.

XT bus (8 bit ISA) IDE Hard Disk Controller card. New with instructions and
cable. Table lists 46 stock hard disk types.

Everex MFM HDD controller card XT/PC. Looks new with cables, manual. 8
bit ISA.

Hard Card - hard disk mounted on 8 bit ISA card with controller. BSM Karddisk 20
(presumably 20 Mb.).

AST RAMpage AT=Pak. "Turns your 2MB expanded memory board into a full
featured multifunction product". Looks like daughter-card with manual in generic
AST box.

INTEL Aboveboard/PC boxed. 256kb. >> 2Mb.

CGA card with composite connector RCA phono jack. 8 bit ISA. Columbia
Data products.

TRS-80 Color Computer - Color Logo plug-in modules - 3 available.
Catalog number 26-2722.
_____________________________________________________________
Click here for free information on prepaid credit cards from top companies.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifRdHtZhIboNlQJCzhWhQ33tKWNI6q\
GE8Ykqw1RhAcHXcIAd/

Reply | Messages in this Topic (1)

#6466

From: "jack99rubin" <jack.rubin@...>
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 2:38 pm
Subject: Re: While I'm at it...

jack99rubin

--- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...>
wrote:
>
> Fred also mentioned that, at one time, Vannevar Bush visited (but
didn't
> actually work at) Camp Evans.
>

And George Washington?

Seriously, though, this is great stuff, however it turns out.

Along the lines of Will's observation, I was lucky enought to attend
two notable panel events last week - first the 45th anniversary of
the LINC Personal Computer (hi Bill) and then a few days later, a
panel at CHM celebrating the 30th anniversary of "the first TCP-based
transmission between three dissimilar networks". In both cases, one
or more of the original Principal Investigators on the projects were
present along with affiliates and support staff. While the
presentations were incredible, they were also sprinkled with comments
like, "No - that was in 19xx, not 19yy" or "-- so that's how that
happened - I always wondered why...". Primary sources, but...

And re Evan's other OT observation about lodging, I used PriceLine
bidding for both my room and my car. I drove a Chevy Cobalt for
$15/day and I stayed in the ExtendedStay America in San Jose (midway
between the airport and CHM) for $55/night.

Jack

Reply | Messages in this Topic (3)

#6467

From: Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster@...>
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:49 pm
Subject: My Birthday Party

narayanayengar

Hi people.

My birthday party is tonight (Saturday November 10) at 8:30PM, and it's
going to be held at the world-famous Scores topless bar in New York
City.  We have a reservation for a number of people, but one of my
buddies just told me that he can't come.

So, does anyone here want to come celebrate my 30th birthday with some
good old-fashioned debauchery?  Dinner will be served, and there is an
open bar.  If you want to come, it's important that you send me an email
as soon as possible.

Peace...  Sridhar

#6468

From: "Evan" <evan@...>
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:18 pm
Subject: Re: My Birthday Party

evan947

I'll probably go (but Sridhar says there is still another slot for any
fun-loving MARCHin) ... Having a tire issue on my car this afternoon but
hopefully it will be fixed by tonight.

#6469

From: "William Donzelli" <wdonzelli@...>
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:29 pm
Subject: Re: My Birthday Party

toober00

> I'll probably go (but Sridhar says there is still another slot for any
MARCHins...

Key use of the proper vowel in "slot" there...

I shall decline, as I have date already. And not just with the ES/9000
I need to unload from my van. I need to bug the birthday boy about it,
when he sobers up.

And as is on one of my scratchy old Bill Cosby records - when you are
hungry, you don't go and watch a guy cook a steak.

--
Will

#6470

From: Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster@...>
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:41 pm
Subject: Re: My Birthday Party

narayanayengar

William Donzelli wrote:
>> I'll probably go (but Sridhar says there is still another slot for any
MARCHins...
>
> Key use of the proper vowel in "slot" there...
>
> I shall decline, as I have date already. And not just with the ES/9000
> I need to unload from my van. I need to bug the birthday boy about it,
> when he sobers up.

ES/9000 fits in your van?  Is it an ES/9221?

Peace...  Sridhar

#6471

From: "John Allain" <allain@...>
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:02 pm
Subject: Re: My Birthday Party

thxi38

> world-famous Scores topless bar in New York City

Curious enough to have looked.
Apparently there's a Scores on both the East side and West side.

John A.

#6472

From: "Evan" <evan@...>
Date: Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:42 am
Subject: Re: My Birthday Party

evan947

It's at 333 E. 60th.

#6473

From: "Joe Giliberti" <Starbase89@...>
Date: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:54 pm
Subject: Re: Next work day

jtkirk1337

I'll try to be there, but thats my duty weekend with first aid, so I may end up pulling a few all nighters that weekend. No promises.

On Nov 9, 2007 1:46 PM, Jeffrey Frady < Legodude522@...> wrote:

I shall be there for the workday Nov. 18th.

On 11/8/07, Bryan Pope <bryan.pope@...> wrote:

Evan wrote:
> Is there a law saying it must be Saturday?
>
Other then the work days have always been on a Saturday? Plus Sunday
gives people a day to "recuperate" from the work day and also not worry
as much about how late the day goes..

Cheers,

Bryan

--
See you spare cowboy...

Reply | Messages in this Topic (15)

#6474

From: Mike Loewen <mloewen@...>
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:24 pm
Subject: Terminal acquisition

mloewen16823

I recently inherited a 1980 HP 2647A terminal, along with a HP 9872B
4-pen plotter and a box full of manuals, cartridge tapes and plotter pens:

http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Terminals/HP2647A.html
http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Terminals/HP9872B.html

     The 2647A is billed as an Intelligent Graphics Terminal, and could be
considered a microcomputer in its own right.  It has two cartridge tape
drives, and comes with a tape to load "Terminal BASIC" which is BASIC
augmented with graphics routines for the terminal.  The CPU is an 8080.

     This lot is going to be a bench project, due to severe "screen rot"
between the CRT and the safety shield, and the tape unit capstan rubber
has turned sticky.  Also, the plotter blows fuses.  Regardless, I hope to
eventually get these into working order.

     The 2647A listed for $8,300 in 1980, and the 9872B for $4,200.


Mike Loewen 		 mloewen@...
Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/

#6475

From: Bryan Pope <bryan.pope@...>
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 2:11 am
Subject: Re: OT: stupid Days Inn

b_ster42

Evan Koblentz wrote:
> I went el-cheapo at the VCF last week -- stayed at the Days Inn.  Paid
> in cash because I didn't want to carry around the $$ from selling two
> computers.  Then, they went and charged my credit card also!  I
> couldn't figure out why my online bank statement was missing $400
> until today.  Called my bank first as a heads-up, then called the
> motel and complained.  They are supposedly refunding my credit card as
> we speak.  But I won't know for sure until Tuesday because of Veterans
> Day next week.  I should've sprung for the extra few dollars and
> stayed at the Marriott like last year.
> _
That really sucks! :( :(  Was it your debit card or credit card?  It
will probably take three or more business days for the credit to appear
because they have to settle before that happens.  Debit cards are worse
because it is *your* money taken out...

If it is happening now (after business hours) then you probably will not
see that refund till Wednesday or Thursday at the latest...

Sorry,

Bryan

#6476

From: Gene Ehrich <ygehrich@...>
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:04 am
Subject: Re: OT: stupid Days Inn

ygehrich

Evan Koblentz wrote:
> I went el-cheapo at the VCF last week -- stayed at the Days Inn.

We had one and only one stay at a days Inn and it was truly disgusting. This is from my original complaint e-mail. They responded by offering us a $10 credit next time we stayed at that hotel. They had to be outa their mind. They finally sent us a $10 check.

================================

Location: Route 13 Just north of entrance to Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel

Comments: It was without a doubt the most DISGUSTING hotel room that we have
ever stayed in. We came in exhausted and just went to bed. In the morning we
saw all of the crawling creatures all over the room and even the bedding.
The tub/shower was filthy and unusable. Horrible, horrible experience. When
checking out the desk said "oh, we have trouble with bugs. We were in Room
118.

Absolutely disgusting.

#6477

From: "Evan" <evan@...>
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:29 pm
Subject: Re: Re: OT: stupid Days Inn

evan947

Thanks for all the feedback ... Got my $$ back, so now let's return to on-topic
... "VCF-related" was a stretch here.  :) (Who went OT in the firs ... Oops.)

#6478

From: Ray Sills <raysills@...>
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:40 pm
Subject: Re: Re: OT: stupid Days Inn

raysills

Hello Gene:

Sorry to hear of that nasty hotel room.

By contrast, last year my son and his family stayed at a Hampton Inn
off I-95 in one of the Carolinas.  When they were checking out, my
daughter-in-law mentioned that the fridge seemed somewhat noisy, and
that someone should check it to see if it's OK.   (They did not need
to use the fridge, and they were not bothered; it was just a
comment).. and the manager thanked them for the comment... and
promptly gave them a full refund.  Their stay cost them nothing!
That was a good business move.
Now, they -only- stay at Hamptons.  Sure, they are more expensive
than a lot of chains, but.. sometimes it's worth the extra.

73 de Ray

On Nov 13, 2007, at 3:04 AM, Gene Ehrich wrote:

>> Evan Koblentz wrote: > I went el-cheapo at the VCF last week --
>> stayed at the Days Inn.
>
> We had one and only one stay at a days Inn and it was truly
> disgusting. This is from my original complaint e-mail. They
> responded by offering us a $10 credit next time we stayed at that
> hotel. They had to be outa their mind. They finally sent us a $10
> check.
>
> ================================
>
> Location: Route 13 Just north of entrance to Chesapeake Bay Bridge
> Tunnel
>
> Comments: It was without a doubt the most DISGUSTING hotel room
> that we have
> ever stayed in. We came in exhausted and just went to bed. In the
> morning we
> saw all of the crawling creatures all over the room and even the
> bedding.
> The tub/shower was filthy and unusable. Horrible, horrible
> experience. When
> checking out the desk said "oh, we have trouble with bugs. We were
> in Room
> 118.
>
> Absolutely disgusting.
>

#6479

From: "Bill Pileggi" <wpileggi@...>
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:25 pm
Subject: GRID (Laptop) 1720 Owner's Guide available

wpileggi

GRID (Laptop) 1720 Owner's Guide available. Found at a show some weeks ago.
Decent condition. Anybody want it? Postage only. Bill /KA3AIS
_____________________________________________________________
Click here and choose from thousands of high quality used cars.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iigeYT2IyArbgQUEFn3B4gMM1OEsXdY\
5iZldqrSXi5D7GZkYV/

Reply | Messages in this Topic (4)

#6480

From: billdeg@...
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:52 pm
Subject: Re: GRID (Laptop) 1720 Owner's Guide available

billdeg