On 01/13/2013 12:41 AM, DougCrawford wrote:
>>   Dig back into the history of those days, and prepare to be amazed.  I
>> grab every 1950s and 1960s computer technology book I can find...
>
> Yes I should!
> Got a few recommendations?

   For "the horse's mouth", there's really no way to beat "Collected
Algorithms from ACM".  It's a bit like reading an encyclopedia, and it's
extremely dense information, but it's great stuff.  Basically all the
algorithms we know and love, in the form in which they were FIRST
published.  The classic sorting algorithms, for example...reading the
articles their developers wrote to introduce them to the world, along
with example code (sometimes pseudocode), is very enlightening.  That
set of books is very expensive, but worth ten times the price.

   For the architectural side of things, "Parallel Computing" by Hockney
and Jesshope is possibly one of the finest books I own. (and, forgive
me, I own quite a few)  It's not about stuff like "clusters of Linux
boxes"...it's about parallel*ISM* in computing, in the way that an
eight-bit computer processes eight bits in parallel, or two bytes in
parallel (typically) when doing sixteen-bit math, etc.  There are
varying degrees of parallelism everywhere, and that book taught me how
to recognize it.  It also includes some case studies and in-depth
descriptions of some computer architectures.  There are very few books
that I can recommend as highly as this one.

               -Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

eBay seller id "tvrsales" is currently selling property STOLEN from the 
Vintage Computer Festival.

If you are planning on buying anything of a vintage computer nature from 
eBay seller "tvrsales" in Stockton, California, please know that you are 
most likely BIDDING ON STOLEN PROPERTY.

The VCF Archives were STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling (eBay ID "tvrsales") 
in cahoots with the landlords of the building where it was sold.

The sordid tale can be read about through lawsuit material already on my 
website for download:

http://vintagetech.com/download/lawsuit/

I encourage everyone to read through the letters and especially the 
affidavit to see the absolute criminality of these vultures.  I am 
continuing to upload more material as I have time, but the basic story is 
there.

The court system was absolutely useless, as were the police and sheriff.  
I am having to sue for conversion, fraud, racketeering, unjust enrichment, 
and probably other charges as I continue my research.

I am here to tell you right now: Anyone on the receiving end of my stolen 
property is going to be entangled in this mess one way or another.  
Therefore, my suggestion to you is that YOU SHOULD NOT BID ON OR BUY 
ANYTHING FROM TRI-VALLEY RECYCLING IN STOCKTON, CALIFORNIA.  If you do end 
up with my stuff, you will become a part of the lawsuit in some way.  So 
if you don't want to have legal issues to deal with, stay away from 
anything they are selling.  I think I have made myself redundantly clear 
here.

The full story will come out in time.  Right now I'm re-grouping for my 
next legal attack.  Yes, I could use assistance, especially if you have a 
law background and can do research for me.  Sure, I could use money, so 
send some if you got it.  I don't need attorneys.  Attorneys are useless 
in the capacity that I am acting.  I'm doing this the proper way: myself.

My entire career as a computer historian has been destroyed by these 
hyenas.  Now I have to sit here and watch as they auction off 25 years of 
my life's work piece by piece.  Don't be caught in the frenzy when the 
lion shows up.

--

Sellam Ismail                                                      VintageTech
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger            http://www.vintagetech.com

Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple.

>> This was just posted on cctalk - it is most horrible news!  A great resource
will be lost if these bastards are allowed to keep stealing and selling Sellam's
collection.

Guys -- as you all know I am very close friends with Sellam (as are a few other
MARCHins), and so I and maybe one or two others know much more about the
situation that we cannot and will not discuss. Don't even think about asking me
for details.

Keep in mind that the legal process is very complicated, it's full of
interpretations, and there are multiple sides to every story.

But as Sellam wrote, the situation is ultra-delicate. I agree with his
assessment that it's best not to get involved in the transactions.

So it's best if this news NOT sink into a thread where all of us non-lawyers
speculate based on information from one party's email.

I am glad he told us, I was watching some of these auctions.  Ug, what a
nightmare.  I really feel for Sellam here, he's a great guy.
Bill

-------- Original Message --------
> From: "Christian Liendo" <christian_liendo@...>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 11:19 AM
> To: "midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com"
<midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] Fwd: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies
STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller
"tvrsales"
>
> I just did a search and I saw the stuff that was sold..
>
> I am speechless.. I hope he wins
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: "evan@..." <evan@...>
> To: MARCH Yahoo Midatlanticretro <midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 12:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] Fwd: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies
STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller
"tvrsales"
>
> >> This was just posted on cctalk - it is most horrible news!  A great
resource will be lost if these bastards are allowed to keep stealing and
selling Sellam's collection.
>
> Guys -- as you all know I am very close friends with Sellam (as are a few
other MARCHins), and so I and maybe one or two others know much more about
the situation that we cannot and will not discuss. Don't even think about
asking me for details.
>
> Keep in mind that the legal process is very complicated, it's full of
interpretations, and there are multiple sides to every story.
>
> But as Sellam wrote, the situation is ultra-delicate. I agree with his
assessment that it's best not to get involved in the transactions.
>
> So it's best if this news NOT sink into a thread where all of us
non-lawyers speculate based on information from one party's email.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, Bryan Pope  wrote:
>
> This was just posted on cctalk - it is most horrible news!

This makes me sad.  I know the collection has been a labor of love.  It is
heartbreaking to watch this unfold.  I personally don't see how I could ever
enjoy any of these items taken from Sellam, no matter how desirable.

Dave


> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject:  Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley
> Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller "tvrsales"
> Date:  Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:47:59 -0800 (PST)
> From:  Sellam Ismail
> Reply-To:  General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>
> To:  Classic Computers Mailing List
>
>
>
> eBay seller id "tvrsales" is currently selling property STOLEN from the
> Vintage Computer Festival.
>
> If you are planning on buying anything of a vintage computer nature from
> eBay seller "tvrsales" in Stockton, California, please know that you are
> most likely BIDDING ON STOLEN PROPERTY.
>
> The VCF Archives were STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling (eBay ID "tvrsales")
> in cahoots with the landlords of the building where it was sold.
>
> The sordid tale can be read about through lawsuit material already on my
> website for download:
>
> http://vintagetech.com/download/lawsuit/
>
> I encourage everyone to read through the letters and especially the
> affidavit to see the absolute criminality of these vultures.  I am
> continuing to upload more material as I have time, but the basic story is
> there.
>
> The court system was absolutely useless, as were the police and sheriff.
> I am having to sue for conversion, fraud, racketeering, unjust enrichment,
> and probably other charges as I continue my research.
>
> I am here to tell you right now: Anyone on the receiving end of my stolen
> property is going to be entangled in this mess one way or another.
> Therefore, my suggestion to you is that YOU SHOULD NOT BID ON OR BUY
> ANYTHING FROM TRI-VALLEY RECYCLING IN STOCKTON, CALIFORNIA.  If you do end
> up with my stuff, you will become a part of the lawsuit in some way.  So
> if you don't want to have legal issues to deal with, stay away from
> anything they are selling.  I think I have made myself redundantly clear
> here.
>
> The full story will come out in time.  Right now I'm re-grouping for my
> next legal attack.  Yes, I could use assistance, especially if you have a
> law background and can do research for me.  Sure, I could use money, so
> send some if you got it.  I don't need attorneys.  Attorneys are useless
> in the capacity that I am acting.  I'm doing this the proper way: myself.
>
> My entire career as a computer historian has been destroyed by these
> hyenas.  Now I have to sit here and watch as they auction off 25 years of
> my life's work piece by piece.  Don't be caught in the frenzy when the
> lion shows up.
>
> --
>
> Sellam Ismail                                                      VintageTech
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> International Man of Intrigue and Danger            http://www.vintagetech.com
>
> Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple.
>

Boards are expected to arrive next Monday.  I'm still weighing details of the
early adopters plan, but I'm leaning along these lines.

Assuming that board pass the eye test and some basic mechanical checks, I'll
probably accept payment for a shipment on the next Saturday or Monday after
board arrival for those that want the best price, and are willing to risk
untested HW.

Then I'll ship a second wave after two more weeks, still with reduced pricing,
but not rock bottom pricing.

After that, I'll go to a standard price that I can live with going forward.

Just to give you an idea of pricing range I'm thinking about is in the range of
$200 to $300 for a six board set, with no components.

SCELBI computer sold kits, as well as build up computers.  Be aware that
building a chassis for the SCELBI 8H can get surprisingly expensive, depending
upon how close to a production system that you want to make it.  For a bare
bones setup kit type setup, you'll need 10, 44 pin edge card connectors, and +5v
and -9v power supplies, plus some switches .  You will need wire to connect the
power supply and front panel switches.

For a more authentic "production" system, SCELBI used 14, 78S11 relay sockets
for I/O and a total of 16 edge card slots.  Also, each card had card guides in
production systems.  The power socket is a 78S4 and the plug is a 86CP4.

The chassis is similar to a BUD AC-413, only 3.5" high, instead of 3".  Cory is
looking into the cost of getting a custom chassis made that closely matches the
SCELBI original, along with an authentic looking anodized blue front panel.

I've ordered a set of edge card connectors - once I confirm that they will work,
I'll post the part number.  Also, I believe I have identified the correct card
guide, but need to confirm that before I publish the number.

I think that all existing SCELBI 8H documentation, including assembly manuals
and schematics can be found online at one of the following sites.

<a href="http://www.scelbi.com"
title="http://www.scelbi.com">http://www.scelbi.com</a>
<a href="http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/scelbi/"
title="http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/scelbi/">http://bitsavers.trailing\
-edge.com/pdf/scelbi/</a>
<a href="http://www.olson-ndt.com/Scelbi/"
title="http://www.olson-ndt.com/Scelbi/">http://www.olson-ndt.com/Scelbi/</a>
I'm repeating this entry on my blog, and will share more information there, as
this project proceeds.

www.willegal.net/blog

regards,
Mike W.

--- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "Mike"  wrote:
>
> awesome,
>
> I should have boards in about 2 weeks - still have to find many of the parts,
but I think I have the hard ones (8008 and 1101) -  most of the rest is pretty
conventional 74xx series.  The original units used a zener in a funky package
for over voltage protection, witch I doubt can be found very easily, but there
are modern equivalents.  watch my blog as details unfold
>
> Also I've promised Evan that MARCH will get a set of bare boards for free.  It
will be up to MARCH to find the parts and build it up into a museum piece.
>
> www.willegal.net/blog
>
> regards,
> Mike W.
>
> --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "B. Degnan"  wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > > On 01/11/2013 09:06 AM, Mike wrote:
> > > > I excited to announce that I've ordered a batch of reproduction SCELBI
> > PCBs.  This will enable  building of a batch of reproduction SCELBI 8Hs.
> > There is still a lot of work to do before a basic system is operational,
> > but this is a major milestone in an effort that was started in earnest
> > about 15 months ago.
> > > >
> > > > Once the basic 8H is working there is untold opportunities for follow
> > on projects, including;
> > > >
> > > > 1) reproduction chassis - although it looks bare bones, I'm pretty sure
> > the original production chassis were custom built to SCELBI specifications
> > and not modified off the shelf chassis.
> > > > 2) cassette interface
> > > > 3) TTY interface
> > > > 4) oscilloscope interface
> > > > 5) SCELBI 8B (4 additional/different PCBs required)
> > > > 6) 2 varieties of power supplies
> > >
> > >   Please put me down for a set!
> > >
> >
> >
> > Me, too boss!
> >
> > Bill Degnan
> >
>

Holy CRAP

That is so unfair.

I'm tempted to buy the KIM-1 back for Sellam and ask that he walk over there to
pick it up.  Perhaps I just send him some money?

Any suggestions?

Josh



--- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, Bryan Pope  wrote:
>
> This was just posted on cctalk - it is most horrible news!  A great
> resource will be lost if these bastards are allowed to keep stealing and
> selling Sellam's collection.
>
> If anyone can help Sellam, please do!
>
> Bryan
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject:  Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley
> Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller "tvrsales"
> Date:  Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:47:59 -0800 (PST)
> From:  Sellam Ismail
> Reply-To:  General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>
> To:  Classic Computers Mailing List
>
>
>
> eBay seller id "tvrsales" is currently selling property STOLEN from the
> Vintage Computer Festival.
>
> If you are planning on buying anything of a vintage computer nature from
> eBay seller "tvrsales" in Stockton, California, please know that you are
> most likely BIDDING ON STOLEN PROPERTY.
>
> The VCF Archives were STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling (eBay ID "tvrsales")
> in cahoots with the landlords of the building where it was sold.
>
> The sordid tale can be read about through lawsuit material already on my
> website for download:
>
> http://vintagetech.com/download/lawsuit/
>
> I encourage everyone to read through the letters and especially the
> affidavit to see the absolute criminality of these vultures.  I am
> continuing to upload more material as I have time, but the basic story is
> there.
>
> The court system was absolutely useless, as were the police and sheriff.
> I am having to sue for conversion, fraud, racketeering, unjust enrichment,
> and probably other charges as I continue my research.
>
> I am here to tell you right now: Anyone on the receiving end of my stolen
> property is going to be entangled in this mess one way or another.
> Therefore, my suggestion to you is that YOU SHOULD NOT BID ON OR BUY
> ANYTHING FROM TRI-VALLEY RECYCLING IN STOCKTON, CALIFORNIA.  If you do end
> up with my stuff, you will become a part of the lawsuit in some way.  So
> if you don't want to have legal issues to deal with, stay away from
> anything they are selling.  I think I have made myself redundantly clear
> here.
>
> The full story will come out in time.  Right now I'm re-grouping for my
> next legal attack.  Yes, I could use assistance, especially if you have a
> law background and can do research for me.  Sure, I could use money, so
> send some if you got it.  I don't need attorneys.  Attorneys are useless
> in the capacity that I am acting.  I'm doing this the proper way: myself.
>
> My entire career as a computer historian has been destroyed by these
> hyenas.  Now I have to sit here and watch as they auction off 25 years of
> my life's work piece by piece.  Don't be caught in the frenzy when the
> lion shows up.
>
> --
>
> Sellam Ismail                                                      VintageTech
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> International Man of Intrigue and Danger            http://www.vintagetech.com
>
> Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple.
>

>> I'm tempted to buy the KIM-1 back for Sellam and ask that he walk over there
to pick it up.

That would be beautiful.

I haven't looked @ cctalk lately but there is a thread on this subject at
vcforum.

Damn, it sold for $380 which is more than I can afford as a gift.



--- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, evan@... wrote:
>
> >> I'm tempted to buy the KIM-1 back for Sellam and ask that he walk over
there to pick it up.
>
> That would be beautiful.
>
> I haven't looked @ cctalk lately but there is a thread on this subject at
vcforum.
>

I saw a big poster for "The Americans" on the subway today. Took a picture; it's
attached. I will upload tomorrow for those who can't see attachments on our
list.

Remember, it starts Jan. 30 on FX channel.

Yes Evan this is on topic...

I currently use Ecoline Flux remover to clean up old cards, this stuff is
expensive and I have to mail order it.  I noticed when I was picking up some
99.99% ISP the other day that my local electronics store carries MG Chemicals
Flux remover which was about $5 cheaper a bottle not counting its local without
shipping.

Has anyone used the MG one?  Is it as safe as the Ecoline for old cards and
systems (plastic safe)?  Does it work as well?

Thanks,
Corey

On 01/16/2013 04:28 PM, corey986 wrote:
> Yes Evan this is on topic...
>
> I currently use Ecoline Flux remover to clean up old cards, this
> stuff is expensive and I have to mail order it.  I noticed when I was
> picking up some 99.99% ISP the other day that my local electronics
> store carries MG Chemicals Flux remover which was about $5 cheaper a
> bottle not counting its local without shipping.
>
> Has anyone used the MG one?  Is it as safe as the Ecoline for old
> cards and systems (plastic safe)?  Does it work as well?

   I use one of MG's flux removers, product #4140.  I've had no problems
with it attacking plastics.  It's tough on your hands, though...use
gloves!  I've mostly used it on new stuff, but I've used it on vintage
boards on occasion as well.

                -Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

I use MG Chemicals Flux Remover all the time, and I will say it's definitely NOT
plastic safe.  I use it very sparingly and localized.
Keep it away from the plastics and you're ok.  I'll say it works better than 99%
alcohol.

The worse plastic eater I've seen is the MG Chemicals "Contact Cleaner"... Very
bad for plastics!  Not that great for cleaning contacts either.



--- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, corey986  wrote:
>
> Yes Evan this is on topic...
>
> I currently use Ecoline Flux remover to clean up old cards, this stuff is
expensive and I have to mail order it.  I noticed when I was picking up some
99.99% ISP the other day that my local electronics store carries MG Chemicals
Flux remover which was about $5 cheaper a bottle not counting its local without
shipping.
>
> Has anyone used the MG one?  Is it as safe as the Ecoline for old cards and
systems (plastic safe)?  Does it work as well?
>
> Thanks,
> Corey
>

On 01/16/2013 07:16 PM, joshbensadon wrote:
> I use MG Chemicals Flux Remover all the time, and I will say it's
> definitely NOT plastic safe.  I use it very sparingly and localized.
> Keep it away from the plastics and you're ok.  I'll say it works
> better than 99% alcohol.

    Urrr?  #4140?  Tell me more.  I use it all the time, and my boards
usually have plastic on them.

              -Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

All,

Someone mentioned to me, at the holiday party, that they were
interested in cast-off quality CRTs.  A friend of mine, who lived near
DC, has a Sony 36" CRT, in good shape, that is free for the taking.
If someone wants it, I'll make an effort to get it up to the museum.

Please reply off-list.

- Alex

>> If someone wants it, I'll make an effort to get it up to the museum.

That is fine * if * the person will pick it up expeditiously.

Also, in exchange for holding stuff here, we'll require at least a half-day of
labor in the warehouse.  :)

>> Yes Evan this is on topic...

I agree.

--- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, Dave McGuire  wrote:
>
>
>    Urrr?  #4140?  Tell me more.  I use it all the time, and my boards
> usually have plastic on them.
>
>              -Dave
>

Well, I don't recall the MG Chemicals part number, I don't have any cans here at
the moment.  I'm using a cheaper product from Asalco called "FLUX-CLEAN"
(Product No AE 101).  Both are like you said, hard on the hands.  They really
suck the moisture out and leave your hands white.

Both don't bother the plastic dip sockets but I did once see the MG Chemicals
Flux Remover discolour a plastic case, luckily it was on the inside of the case
only.  I don't know enough about plastics to tell you which type it was.  Since
then, I've played it safe.

A real offensive product is that contact cleaner.  I tried it once on a switch,
it got on the plastic button and within 10 minutes, the button became so
brittle, it came apart with the slightest pressure.

Evan,

Did you get my email off list?

Josh

What do you normally use on Vintage Stuff then?  I was cleaning some pretty
"fluxy" MITS ram cards yesterday that I just got and 99% ISP barely did
anything.   Ecoline worked but I had 3 ram cards to do so it took 1/2 a can
(they were really bad).  I was saving that can for my Sol which was a kit so I'm
sure once I get the main board out will need a good cleaning.   I'm going with
the Bill D method of troubleshooting, clean the darn thing up so you can see
what you actually have going on when you start debugging.  I also have my SIO-A
and 88-PMC card to clean this week before I install them and I'm guessing they
will finish off my Ecoline supply.

Thanks,
Corey

--- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, Dave McGuire  wrote:
>
> On 01/16/2013 04:28 PM, corey986 wrote:
> > Yes Evan this is on topic...
> >
> > I currently use Ecoline Flux remover to clean up old cards, this
> > stuff is expensive and I have to mail order it.  I noticed when I was
> > picking up some 99.99% ISP the other day that my local electronics
> > store carries MG Chemicals Flux remover which was about $5 cheaper a
> > bottle not counting its local without shipping.
> >
> > Has anyone used the MG one?  Is it as safe as the Ecoline for old
> > cards and systems (plastic safe)?  Does it work as well?
>
>   I use one of MG's flux removers, product #4140.  I've had no problems
> with it attacking plastics.  It's tough on your hands, though...use
> gloves!  I've mostly used it on new stuff, but I've used it on vintage
> boards on occasion as well.
>
>                -Dave
>
> --
> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
> New Kensington, PA
>

Evan,
You do know I'm only "razzing" you because I haven't seen you since before the
holidays.  When things calm down, I'll see if I can help with some sorting in
the H building.

Cheers,
Corey

--- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, evan@... wrote:
>
> >> Yes Evan this is on topic...
>
> I agree.
>

>> You do know I'm only "razzing" you

Razz away, just be prepared to be razzed.  :)

>> When things calm down, I'll see if I can help with some sorting in the H
building.

Thanks.

I do use flux remover, but I do not let it contact the case or switch plastics
(IC and connector plastic seem to fare well).

Don't buy just 1 can, I suggest buying 3 cans, this stuff goes.

Bill D is right.  Clean it so you can see the solder connections.
Then check for the usual solder bridges.  Between pins they are easy to spot,
look for them between an IC pin and a trace passing very close.  Hold the board
up to the light, it's easier to see these.  Also look for micro short between
traces or any trace opens, very easy to see when you put your bench light behind
the board.

I did a Mark-8 project like this.

Tips on how to use less flux remover.
-Spray on area, let soak for 20-30 seconds
-Use a tooth brush to scrub the area (scrub for 10 seconds)
-Spray more to sweep the area clear, letting the solvent drip off the board.
-Use air to blow (chase) the rest of the solvent off, otherwise it evaporates
and leaves the dissolved flux else where.

When I'm doing multiple boards, I let the solvent drip off onto the next board,
scrub it, spray it off onto the next board, etc.





--- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, corey986  wrote:
>
> What do you normally use on Vintage Stuff then?  I was cleaning some pretty
"fluxy" MITS ram cards yesterday that I just got and 99% ISP barely did
anything.   Ecoline worked but I had 3 ram cards to do so it took 1/2 a can
(they were really bad).  I was saving that can for my Sol which was a kit so I'm
sure once I get the main board out will need a good cleaning.   I'm going with
the Bill D method of troubleshooting, clean the darn thing up so you can see
what you actually have going on when you start debugging.  I also have my SIO-A
and 88-PMC card to clean this week before I install them and I'm guessing they
will finish off my Ecoline supply.
>
> Thanks,
> Corey
>
> --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, Dave McGuire  wrote:
> >
> > On 01/16/2013 04:28 PM, corey986 wrote:
> > > Yes Evan this is on topic...
> > >
> > > I currently use Ecoline Flux remover to clean up old cards, this
> > > stuff is expensive and I have to mail order it.  I noticed when I was
> > > picking up some 99.99% ISP the other day that my local electronics
> > > store carries MG Chemicals Flux remover which was about $5 cheaper a
> > > bottle not counting its local without shipping.
> > >
> > > Has anyone used the MG one?  Is it as safe as the Ecoline for old
> > > cards and systems (plastic safe)?  Does it work as well?
> >
> >   I use one of MG's flux removers, product #4140.  I've had no problems
> > with it attacking plastics.  It's tough on your hands, though...use
> > gloves!  I've mostly used it on new stuff, but I've used it on vintage
> > boards on occasion as well.
> >
> >                -Dave
> >
> > --
> > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
> > New Kensington, PA
> >
>

On 01/17/2013 01:46 AM, joshbensadon wrote:
>> Urrr?  #4140?  Tell me more.  I use it all the time, and my boards
>>  usually have plastic on them.
>
> Well, I don't recall the MG Chemicals part number, I don't have any
> cans here at the moment.  I'm using a cheaper product from Asalco
> called "FLUX-CLEAN" (Product No AE 101).  Both are like you said,
> hard on the hands.  They really suck the moisture out and leave your
> hands white.

   Yes, the MG 4140 does as well.

> Both don't bother the plastic dip sockets but I did once see the MG
> Chemicals Flux Remover discolour a plastic case, luckily it was on
> the inside of the case only.  I don't know enough about plastics to
> tell you which type it was.  Since then, I've played it safe.

   Yeah.  I don't recall it ever having damaged anything, but I'm pretty
consistent about getting it where it's needed and nowhere else.
Sometimes you can't help overspray, though.  Connector shells, sockets,
beepers with plastic enclosures, etc...never had any issues.

   Interestingly, I was in a PCB assembly house yesterday, letting them
schmooze me a bit because I'm shopping around a big board assembly job.
  They do full-board spray defluxing there, using MG #4140...but from
MUCH MUCH larger containers. ;)

> A real offensive product is that contact cleaner.  I tried it once on
> a switch, it got on the plastic button and within 10 minutes, the
> button became so brittle, it came apart with the slightest pressure.

   That's scary.  I use their contact cleaner quite a lot as well, but I
try to avoid letting it touch anything but the contacts, just on general
principle.

                -Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

On 01/17/2013 06:02 AM, corey986 wrote:
> What do you normally use on Vintage Stuff then?

   MG 4140. :)  I do a lot of repairs on vintage stuff, but I do far more
work on current hardware.  (that's why my earlier response must've been
confusing)

> I was cleaning some
> pretty "fluxy" MITS ram cards yesterday that I just got and 99% ISP
> barely did anything.   Ecoline worked but I had 3 ram cards to do so
> it took 1/2 a can (they were really bad).  I was saving that can for
> my Sol which was a kit so I'm sure once I get the main board out will
> need a good cleaning.   I'm going with the Bill D method of
> troubleshooting, clean the darn thing up so you can see what you
> actually have going on when you start debugging.  I also have my
> SIO-A and 88-PMC card to clean this week before I install them and
> I'm guessing they will finish off my Ecoline supply.

   Yeah isopropyl alcohol won't both most fluxes very much.  Even the MG
4140 has trouble with very old, discolored flux.  Scrub scrub scrub..

               -Dave



> Thanks, Corey
>
> --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, Dave McGuire  wrote:
>>
>> On 01/16/2013 04:28 PM, corey986 wrote:
>>> Yes Evan this is on topic...
>>>
>>> I currently use Ecoline Flux remover to clean up old cards, this
>>> stuff is expensive and I have to mail order it.  I noticed when I
>>> was picking up some 99.99% ISP the other day that my local
>>> electronics store carries MG Chemicals Flux remover which was
>>> about $5 cheaper a bottle not counting its local without
>>> shipping.
>>>
>>> Has anyone used the MG one?  Is it as safe as the Ecoline for
>>> old cards and systems (plastic safe)?  Does it work as well?
>>
>> I use one of MG's flux removers, product #4140.  I've had no
>> problems with it attacking plastics.  It's tough on your hands,
>> though...use gloves!  I've mostly used it on new stuff, but I've
>> used it on vintage boards on occasion as well.
>>
>> -Dave
>>
>> -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

--- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, evan@... wrote:
>
> >> I'm tempted to buy the KIM-1 back for Sellam and ask that he walk over
there to pick it up.
>
> That would be beautiful.
>
> I haven't looked @ cctalk lately but there is a thread on this subject at
vcforum.
>

I hope the msg gets spread far such that the stuff doesn't sell, but folks
not-in-the-know and opportunists are likely to bite.
Argh.

-------- Original Message --------
> From: "DougCrawford" <touchetek@...>
> Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 5:06 PM
> To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: Fwd: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies
STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller
"tvrsales"
>
> --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, evan@... wrote:
> >
> > >> I'm tempted to buy the KIM-1 back for Sellam and ask that he walk
over there to pick it up.
> >
> > That would be beautiful.
> >
> > I haven't looked @ cctalk lately but there is a thread on this subject
at vcforum.
> >
>
> I hope the msg gets spread far such that the stuff doesn't sell, but
folks not-in-the-know and opportunists are likely to bite.
> Argh.
>

There are at least three more Ebay accounts selling his items.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/appliancealley/m.html
http://www.ebay.com/csc/martinezana/m.html?LH_Complete=1&rt=nc
http://www.ebay.com/sch/kaekae_b2011/m.html?item=121051068738&ssPageName=STR
K%3AMEWAX%3AIT&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562

I don't understand.  Has he not contacted ebay?  Wouldn't ebay halt the auctions
if it was made clear all the items in question were stolen or at least part of
an ongoing lawsuit?

--
MS