In more news from today .... Bill Drom., beside being very early :)
also said he's got the Radio Electronics issue with the Mark-8 article
for our museum (and a Pennywhistle modem!) That's great news! We already
have the Popular Electronics "Build your own TV Typewriter" issue and
the Altair issue too. Anybody have the October '71 issue of Esquire
magazine to donate/loan to us? That's the one with the "Secrets of the
Little Blue Box" article.

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012, Evan Koblentz wrote:

> Anybody have the October '71 issue of Esquire magazine to donate/loan to
> us? That's the one with the "Secrets of the Little Blue Box" article.

     Only a copy.  :-)


Mike Loewen 		 mloewen@...
Old Technology       http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/

>> Anybody have the October '71 issue of Esquire magazine to donate/loan to us?
That's the one with the "Secrets of the Little Blue Box" article.
> Only a copy.  :-)

Thanks, but we'd like the real thing.

The article is online, of course. (And as a side note, I don't like the
guy who wrote it. I dislike him very much. But that's an offline,
off-topic discussion.)

> Are there any poptronics or radio electronics issues with an article
> about the blue boxes?

Probably, but Esquire Oct. '71 is the historic one.

I'm also fond of Esquire July '08, which is the issue for which they
paid us a small fortune to rent and photograph some computers.  :)

--- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...> wrote:
>
> Are there any poptronics or radio electronics issues with an article about
> the blue boxes?

Poptronics didn't come out until year 2000.
I searched Popular Electronics 1970 to 1974 (just the covers) but did not see
any hint of Phone Hacking.  IMHO, PE wouldn't publish such articles.  I did
remember seeing a phone dialer that accessed the 4th column, and I found the
article in Jan 1976 of Radio Electronics.  But they call it a "Pocket Computer
Terminal" and a quick glance through the article does not reveal any
mischievious uses for the device.
If I have more time tomorrow, I might continue searching RE back to 1970.

Josh

>> Poptronics didn't come out until year 2000.

He meant is as shorthand for the Popular Electronics.

All,

I'm going to KansasFest, this year, and it'll be my first time
attending.  Is anyone else going?

I'm starting to try to figure out how to get all the stuff to KC that
I'm planning to bring.

- Alex

If you want Jeff, you can come any time to work on stuff in the IXR lab and use
our irons and stuff.

And by tomorrow, that should mean the IXR lab that is no longer in the dungeon.

-DW


--- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...> wrote:
>
> Jeff,
>
> InfoAge should have good irons you can borrow to try out , so you can see
> what kind you'd like.  I have a Weller WC100.  I saw a socket set for the
> c64 on ebay today, for those who want to install all the sockets you need
> to make a newer c64 like the older ones. Or you could just grab an older
> c64 from MARCH's inventory cheap, right?  Get a good solder sucker the
> radioshack units are not ideal.
>
> Bill
>
> ----------------------------------------
>
> From: "Jeffrey Brace" <ark72axow@...>
> Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 12:36 AM
> To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [midatlanticretro] Who is coming Sat?  (other than me and Dave
> Gesswein)?
>
> From: B. Degnan
> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 2:33 PM
>
> >Who is coming Sat?  (other than me and Dave Gesswein)?
>
> I will be there Saturday. I don't know what time. Maybe late like 7pm. I
> have to work on Saturday. I would like to work on my Commodore 64. I only
> have a cheap $10 soldering iron & some solder. I might need a stronger
> soldering iron. I plan on buying a solder sucker. I would like to make the
>
> major chips socketed, so that they are easier to replace in the future.
> That
> would require desoldering and soldering. I have asked many times to many
> people which tools I need without much success. But it seems from taking
> the
> soldering workshop with Dan Wobser that I should get a temperature
> controlled soldering iron. I also hear that I might need a more powerful
> soldering iron to get some of the heat shields off the C64 mother board.
> Which reminds me that I have a few tips that I bought for my soldering
> iron.
>
> I have different diagnostic equipment and will review information and
> videos
> so that I will be up to speed as much as possible. I will mostly be working
>
> on my own since most people seem to not be knowledgeable or interested in
> working on C64s.
>
> Jeff Brace
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>

--- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "J. Alexander Jacocks" <jjacocks@...>
wrote:
>
> On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 12:27 PM, B. Degnan <billdeg@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Jeff,
> >
> > InfoAge should have good irons you can borrow to try out , so you can see
> > what kind you'd like.  I have a Weller WC100.  I saw a socket set for the
> > c64 on ebay today, for those who want to install all the sockets you need
> > to make a newer c64 like the older ones. Or you could just grab an older
> > c64 from MARCH's inventory cheap, right?  Get a good solder sucker the
> > radioshack units are not ideal.
> >
> > Bill
> >
>
> I now have a Weller WESD51, which I absolutely love.
>
> Bill, what is a good solder sucker?  I have both the trigger type and the
> bulb type, both cheap, and neither of which seems to work well, at all.
>
> - Alex
>


Weller WESD51 is the one we have now in IXR, and it's a pleasure to work with.
-DW

--- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...> wrote:
>
> I haven't had any time to work on this.
> Everyone: HOPE is a friggin' awesome event. MARCH can arrange for * some *
free tickets, but don't expect to raise your hand in late June and assume you'll
be taken care of ... Speak now.
>


You mentioned that you were going to take care of me. :)
We still good?

-Dan W

I decided to make a new thread from the other one.

I was hoping for some definite direction in my endless quest to fix my C64.
I don't have a lot of free time to work on this. So it is ongoing in many
ways. Plus I am cautious about doing things that I know little about. Which
can be good especially when you get people that give you conflicting advice.
I do find a lot of helpful people on IRC, but you have to sort out what they
are all telling you. I won't want to go and start buying all sorts of stuff
and equipment without knowing why or then finding that I should have bought
Y, when I bought X.

I'm not a moron, or a dummy or an an idiot, just an ignoramus. I know a
little. Bits and pieces here and there, but nothing that will give me
confidence to just dive in.

This is my quest to learn how to repair my C64. I started with my original
C64 which I bought in 1987. I had left it in a garage for two years and then
tried to use it and it didn't work.

First I was told that I should clean my C64 with regular dish detergent and
a hair dryer. I was told that this would solve many problems. Sounds unsafe,
but I guess I will try it.
Then I was told that I should buy another C64 since it isn't worth repairing
them, since they are so plentifully available and cheap. So now I have many
non-working ones.
Then I need to replace chips that are bad, so I need to know how to solder
and de-solder. Which kind of device to get ? There are different wattages
and if you do it wrong then you burn up your boards(as a friend of  mine
with more soldering experience did). Do I get a combination desolder sucker
? Or a little squeeze one ? Or a push and suck stick ? Do I get a soldering
station ? A braider ? Too many different choices and combinations. I prefer
something that will work and not damage my boards, and for desoldering,
something that won't give me repetitive stress injury.
Then I'm told to get a diagnostic cartridge for C64, which works well expect
when the PLA chip is bad and there you can't see video.
Then I should get a diagnostic harness, which works better, but again you
need video.
Then I find a Diagnose 64 cartridge which tells you which chips are bad very
simply with LED lights, but they are hard to find and I'm borrowing and
figuring out how to use now.
Then I'm told to get a multimeter, how do I use ? Which one to get ? I get
one, then I'm told there is a better that could have been gotten for a
little more.
Then I'm told to get a logic probe. Which one ? Again, how to use ?
Then I'm told a logic probe is not as good as an oscilloscope. Which one ?
How to use ? Then I'm told that I don't need an oscilloscope.
Then I'm told to go to Ray Carlsen's site and that will have everything I
need. http://personalpages.tds.net/~rcarlsen/cbm.html. Which is very nice,
but I'm a beginner and I don't need just a bunch of schematics and reference
material. I need step by step method which explains which tools, techniques
etc. that I need to do.
Then I'm told that going to the Rob Clarke and Bil Herd workshop would give
me everything that I need to know. Again it is good information, but not
hands on, and some of it is beyond my knowledge (

I'm doomed to keep flopping around learning bits and pieces, trying a little
here and there. Borrowing stuff etc. I will figure something out sooner or
later.

Maybe some day when I figure all this out *I* will make a “Diagnosing and
Repiring C64 for the ignoramus” book. I can't use "For Dummies" or "Complete
Idiot", because they are trademark or something already ;)

Jeff B

And to add to that... Jeff you are at InfoAge enough that if you give us a heads
up when you want to work on a machine, one of us can be around to help a little
with your soldering and desoldering skills.  It's not like riding a bike.  You
need constant practice or you loose the "touch" for "good" work.  It's also
addicting once you fix something.  Then you want to keep going!!!

Cheers,
Corey
--- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "nicodemus_nj" <dwobser@...> wrote:
>
>
> If you want Jeff, you can come any time to work on stuff in the IXR lab and
use our irons and stuff.
>
> And by tomorrow, that should mean the IXR lab that is no longer in the
dungeon.
>
> -DW
>
>
> --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "B. Degnan" <billdeg@> wrote:
> >
> > Jeff,
> >
> > InfoAge should have good irons you can borrow to try out , so you can see
> > what kind you'd like.  I have a Weller WC100.  I saw a socket set for the
> > c64 on ebay today, for those who want to install all the sockets you need
> > to make a newer c64 like the older ones. Or you could just grab an older
> > c64 from MARCH's inventory cheap, right?  Get a good solder sucker the
> > radioshack units are not ideal.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > ----------------------------------------
> >
> > From: "Jeffrey Brace" <ark72axow@>
> > Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 12:36 AM
> > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [midatlanticretro] Who is coming Sat?  (other than me and Dave
> > Gesswein)?
> >
> > From: B. Degnan
> > Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 2:33 PM
> >
> > >Who is coming Sat?  (other than me and Dave Gesswein)?
> >
> > I will be there Saturday. I don't know what time. Maybe late like 7pm. I
> > have to work on Saturday. I would like to work on my Commodore 64. I only
> > have a cheap $10 soldering iron & some solder. I might need a stronger
> > soldering iron. I plan on buying a solder sucker. I would like to make the
> >
> > major chips socketed, so that they are easier to replace in the future.
> > That
> > would require desoldering and soldering. I have asked many times to many
> > people which tools I need without much success. But it seems from taking
> > the
> > soldering workshop with Dan Wobser that I should get a temperature
> > controlled soldering iron. I also hear that I might need a more powerful
> > soldering iron to get some of the heat shields off the C64 mother board.
> > Which reminds me that I have a few tips that I bought for my soldering
> > iron.
> >
> > I have different diagnostic equipment and will review information and
> > videos
> > so that I will be up to speed as much as possible. I will mostly be working
> >
> > on my own since most people seem to not be knowledgeable or interested in
> > working on C64s.
> >
> > Jeff Brace
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
>

I can say this...you need to learn how the c64 works at the electronics level. 
Computers from the 8-bit era were intended to be serviced with multimeters,
oscilloscopes, and logic probes.   You can usually get away with just a
multimeter for most diagnosis.

You could have bad caps and all good chips ... making chip replacement a waste
of time.  You need to diagnose your system's specific problem first. The shot
gun approach to repair is inefficient.

So...save your money and start with a multimeter that has a continuity tester
and ohm tester.   Bring one working c64 and one bad one and bring to the
workshop.  I will be happy to help get you started how to work through the c64
board next week.

I should add I learned all this from fellow march members.  I was a total
neophyte ten years ago and I have no formal electronics training.

Repair of 8 bit systems takes dedication and it will not come easy.  I work on
something almost every day.  It does not hurt to be a tad obsessive :-)

B
--
Sent from my PDP 8/e.

MARCH frequently asked questions -- updated Feb. 27, 2012

1. What is MARCH?

MARCH is a user group for people who enjoy collecting, restoring, using, and
exhibiting antique/vintage computers. Our name is an acronym for Mid-Atlantic
Retro Computing Hobbyists. Our club's legal name has an "Inc." on the end
because we're incorporated as a non-profit in New Jersey. However we do not yet
have 501(c)3 tax status.

2. Cool, I have some old-school Pentium IIs, and even a 486!

Sorry, but that's not what we do. By "antique/vintage" we mean things that are
far more historic. We start (with some exceptions) at the mid-1980s early GUI
systems, go into early-1980s/late-1970s 8-bit microcomputers, back into
mid-1970s homebrew kits and single-board computers, then find our way into
1970s/1960s minicomputers when "mini" meant as big as a desk or refridgerator.
Finally, we're into mainframes of the 1950s and 1960s. Of course, we also focus
on all sorts of books/magazines, cultural artifacts, I/O devices (teletypes,
terminals) peripherals, software, storage hardware (keypunches, magnetic/paper
tape, etc.), and everything from this realm. Not counting mathematical tools
such as a slide rule, our oldest computer artifact is an IBM 082 punch card
sorter, from 1948.

3. I'm a nerd and live somewhere between Connecticut and Virginia, yet I never
heard of you before.

Andy Meyer reiterated his idea for a regional user group in the second half of
2004. Evan Koblentz started the Yahoo discussion group
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/) in the beginning of 2005.
MARCH became a legal entity later that year. Our expertise is technical, but
we're not so good at marketing. Please help!

4. So I have to live in the Mid-Atlantic part of the U.S. to join?

Nope. That description just conveys where most of our members and activities are
concentrated -- in the scalene triangle between Hartford, Pittsburgh, and D.C.
-- but people from beyond these areas are certainly welcome to join us.

5. What does MARCH actually do?

In addition to the busy discussion list at our Yahoo group (more than 20,000
messages over six years and virtually no spam!), we also operate a
bricks-and-mortar computer museum on the New Jersey shore. Currently our museum
occupies almost 1,500 sq. ft. in a wing of the InfoAge Science Center, located
in Wall Township, New Jersey

6. InfoAge Science Center? What's that?

7. InfoAge is a relatively new museum and 501(c)3 non-profit organization. Its
construction began in the late 1990s and it opened in a "beta" mode in the
mid-2000s. Its facility is a whole campus, not just one building. There is a
very rich history here. The campus was built by the Marconi America Wireless
Telegraphy Co. as a receiving station in 1912, was used as a communications
laboratory by the U.S. Navy during WWI, and then was in private hands. It became
a U.S. Army Signal Corps R&D lab just before WWII and remained so until
the 1990s. Congress decided to close the lab and sell the land. Instead, local
historians recognized its history and formed InfoAge. Now the campus is on the
National Parks Service's National Register of Historic Places. InfoAge is also a
Black History Site and had several other federal designations related to its
service before, during, and after WWII. Public hours are Sunday from 1pm to 5pm
and other times by appointment. For more about the museum and campus history
please visit www.infoage.org.

8. Okay, so back to this computer museum of yours. What's there?

Our museum has five exhibits: Mainframes, minicomputers, homebrew-era computers,
business microcomputers, and consumer microcomputers. We have many ideas for
more exhibits, and we plan to implement those ideas just as soon as we move from
our current space on campus into a larger building next door. That could happen
in another year or so.

9. Do the computers just sit there or can I use them?

We strive to restore our systems to operational condition. Some computers,
especially the microcomputers, are relatively easy to restore and easy to
replace if necessary. Others, such as our minicomputers, require a more serious
effort. We make every effort to have these computers available for our members'
use and to demonstrate them for visitors.

10. Can I help restore the computers?

Yes! Join our group, get to know us, and volunteer to help out.

11. What else does MARCH do?

Lots of fun stuff. In addition to our discussion list and our museum, we also
host special events. Our flagship event is the Vintage Computer Festival East.
Our first edition of this hobbyist convention was VCF East 3.0, in 2006, because
the first two editions were run by a different organization. VCF East 4.0 was in
June 2007; VCF East 5.0 was in Sept. 2008, VCF East 6.0 was in Sept. 2009, and
VCF East 7.0 was in May 2011. The next edition, VCF East 8.0, is scheduled for
May 5-6, 2012 -- details are frequently updated at
http://www.vintage.org/2012/east/ and at http://wwww.facebook.com/vcfeast8.

We also produce smaller exhibits at other events such HOPE (Hackers on Planet
Earth conference), NJ Science & Engineering Festival, Philadelphia Science
Carnival, Trenton Computer Festival, and World Maker Faire. In addition, we have
social events, tech days, museum days, a winter party, etc.

12. I still don't get it. Where can I learn more about what's antique/vintage?

Many places. Pick up a copy of the book "Collectible Microcomputers" by Michael
Nadeau. Or for non-micro aspects, go online. Heck, go online anyway. Check out
the classiccmp.org mailing lists; vintage-computer.com/vcforum,
old-computers.com; and many, many, many others.  (If you're interested in
specific machines, just post your question to our discussion list and we can
refer you to the best sites.)

13. What's behind the scenes of this wacky endeavor?

We have some de facto officers; an official set of bylaws and all that boring
stuff is being worked on... we're just so busy having fun that we keep
procrastinating. The officers are myself (Evan Koblentz - prez), Bill Degnan and
Andy Meyer (VPs), and Justin Jernigan (treasurer).

14. Members?  Is it like just you and two buddies?

We're much bigger than that!  We have dozens of members, and around 300 people
in our Yahoo group. Our youngest member is an 18-year-old college freshman who
was valedictorian of his high school and received a major university scholarship
to study computer science. Our oldest member is in his 80s and remains active in
robot hacking and computer programming.

15. What's it cost to join?

Nothing. MARCH membership is free (as in beer).

16. So how do you fund the club?

Our primary fundraiser is the Vintage Computer Festival East, during which we
sell tickets, exhibit space, and various items. We also have an annual donation
drive. Sometimes we also rent artifacts for use at film/television props.

17. Can I make a donation of artifacts or funds?

Yes! Contact us first, and we'll make arrangements. Info is in the very next
question of this FAQ.

17. I have a question.

Okay. Reach out to us! Do so by posting to our message boards or pinging me
(evan@... / phone: 646-546-9999) ... ask us anything, we're not shy! (And
moreover, unlike some computer clubs, we're not cliquey. All are welcome here!)

18. What else should I know before diving in to MARCH?

If you're a nerd who thinks really old computers and their related technologies
were cool, then give MARCH a chance. You'll be glad you did. Also, if you were
wondering, we're NOT a bunch of old farts who sit around and whine about how
much better things used to be. Quite the contrary: we're a bunch of young and
mid-life farts who ... ooooh maybe we said too much. :)

19. What is your web site?

We're at www.midatlanticretro.org.

20. Why does your web site suck?

Its simplicity is by design.

I'm new to the group, so please forgive me if this has been covered in the past
or is part of the upcoming technical session.

With the discussion on soldering, equipment and accessories, maybe getting
together with some of the more technical DIY guys from the radio club would be a
good idea.  Hams in general are more than willing to share what they know and
perhaps a "Soldering 101" session might be a good thing for those who want to
learn or develop better techniques.

As to wick vs suckers, I use both, depending on what I'm trying to do.  While a
solder vac is great on the bench, a spring-loaded sucker works well once you
develop your skills.  Wick is good for most things, but removing that "little
bit of solder stuck in the middle of the hole" is more easily done with the
sucker.  Less heat and potential damage to the board, too.  IMHO, the bulb style
of sucker is useless, unless it's the kind attached to a heated iron.  Even
then, you spend a lot of time cleaning it out...

If there's interest in learning more about soldering from members who are in the
Delaware Valley, I'm sure I can put together a session with the Gloucester
County Amateur Radio Club.

Cory - WA3UVV

I'm sure you're not "dumb".  Your questions and long list of ideas is solid. 
You need somewhere to begin and that's with a basic understanding of
electronics.  Your first tools should be a Digital Multi Meter, a soldering iron
(perferably one with a temperature controlled tip, yes they cost more but they
are less likely to damage your board due to being a beginer) and a Solder Sucker
(don't buy a cheap one or it will never work, buy a Soldapult DS-017).

Next, get your schematic and look for the "Power Supply".  Your first step in
trouble shooting is to check the power supply for voltage.  Actually, I take
that back, your first step is to open, clean, visually inspect for any obvious
problems (ie blown capacitors, resistors, fuses) and follow your nose! Yes, give
the board a sniff for burnt out parts.  If there is anything burned, then the
problems go deep, if nothing appears burned, then the problems are probably a
bad connection somewhere.  Instead of wasting time explaining both avenues, I
await your response to these preliminary steps.

Regards,
Josh


--- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey Brace" <ark72axow@...> wrote:
>
> I decided to make a new thread from the other one.
>
> I was hoping for some definite direction in my endless quest to fix my C64.
> I don't have a lot of free time to work on this. So it is ongoing in many
> ways. Plus I am cautious about doing things that I know little about. Which
> can be good especially when you get people that give you conflicting advice.
> I do find a lot of helpful people on IRC, but you have to sort out what they
> are all telling you. I won't want to go and start buying all sorts of stuff
> and equipment without knowing why or then finding that I should have bought
> Y, when I bought X.
>
> I'm not a moron, or a dummy or an an idiot, just an ignoramus. I know a
> little. Bits and pieces here and there, but nothing that will give me
> confidence to just dive in.
>
> This is my quest to learn how to repair my C64. I started with my original
> C64 which I bought in 1987. I had left it in a garage for two years and then
> tried to use it and it didn't work.
>
> First I was told that I should clean my C64 with regular dish detergent and
> a hair dryer. I was told that this would solve many problems. Sounds unsafe,
> but I guess I will try it.
> Then I was told that I should buy another C64 since it isn't worth repairing
> them, since they are so plentifully available and cheap. So now I have many
> non-working ones.
> Then I need to replace chips that are bad, so I need to know how to solder
> and de-solder. Which kind of device to get ? There are different wattages
> and if you do it wrong then you burn up your boards(as a friend of  mine
> with more soldering experience did). Do I get a combination desolder sucker
> ? Or a little squeeze one ? Or a push and suck stick ? Do I get a soldering
> station ? A braider ? Too many different choices and combinations. I prefer
> something that will work and not damage my boards, and for desoldering,
> something that won't give me repetitive stress injury.
> Then I'm told to get a diagnostic cartridge for C64, which works well expect
> when the PLA chip is bad and there you can't see video.
> Then I should get a diagnostic harness, which works better, but again you
> need video.
> Then I find a Diagnose 64 cartridge which tells you which chips are bad very
> simply with LED lights, but they are hard to find and I'm borrowing and
> figuring out how to use now.
> Then I'm told to get a multimeter, how do I use ? Which one to get ? I get
> one, then I'm told there is a better that could have been gotten for a
> little more.
> Then I'm told to get a logic probe. Which one ? Again, how to use ?
> Then I'm told a logic probe is not as good as an oscilloscope. Which one ?
> How to use ? Then I'm told that I don't need an oscilloscope.
> Then I'm told to go to Ray Carlsen's site and that will have everything I
> need. http://personalpages.tds.net/~rcarlsen/cbm.html. Which is very nice,
> but I'm a beginner and I don't need just a bunch of schematics and reference
> material. I need step by step method which explains which tools, techniques
> etc. that I need to do.
> Then I'm told that going to the Rob Clarke and Bil Herd workshop would give
> me everything that I need to know. Again it is good information, but not
> hands on, and some of it is beyond my knowledge (
>
> I'm doomed to keep flopping around learning bits and pieces, trying a little
> here and there. Borrowing stuff etc. I will figure something out sooner or
> later.
>
> Maybe some day when I figure all this out *I* will make a “Diagnosing and
> Repiring C64 for the ignoramus” book. I can't use "For Dummies" or "Complete
> Idiot", because they are trademark or something already ;)
>
> Jeff B
>

>> With the discussion on soldering, equipment and accessories, maybe getting
together with some of the more technical DIY guys from the radio club would be a
good idea.

There's plenty of knowledge in this group about such things. The challenge is
our members are all over the map - figuratively (huge range of experience /
inexperience) and literally (we're spread across many states.)

>> Hams in general are more than willing to share what they know

So are veteran MARCHins.  :)

>> perhaps a "Soldering 101" session

IXR (InfoAge-based hackerspace, run by our list member Dan W. ("Nicodermus"))
runs such a workshop every Sunday.

Jeff B: you should attend, we'll just dock the hours from your MARCH paycheck. 
;)

But, what Visual is suggesting is similar to the basis of an idea Dan W. and I
discussed offline a few weeks ago. The idea is for an InfoAge-wide "Science
Camp" day/weekend for adults. I figure there are many overlapping skills between
all the member groups. Each group uses these skills in unique ways, but we can
all learn from each other.

I have many ideas for how this could work; will share some tonight.

--- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "visual_storytellers"
<visual_storytellers@...> wrote:
>
> I'm new to the group, so please forgive me if this has been covered in the
past or is part of the upcoming technical session.
>
> If there's interest in learning more about soldering from members who are in
the Delaware Valley, I'm sure I can put together a session with the Gloucester
County Amateur Radio Club.
>
> Cory - WA3UVV


Thank You Cory! Learning how to solder / unsolder never gets old in this field.

If anyone wants help north of the border in Toronto, I'm your man!

Josh

--- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...> wrote:
>
> >> Poptronics didn't come out until year 2000.
>
> He meant is as shorthand for the Popular Electronics.
>

Sorry, I'm just playing the "Garbage in - Garbage out" game.

I'm sure most people know Poptronics was the result of two magazines merging to
become one.  I just wanted to be factual for the few that might not be familiar
with these magazines.

Cheers,
Josh

On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 05:35:03AM -0400, Jeffrey Brace wrote:
This turned into somewhat of a massive tome. Hopefully someone composed a
more concise response while I was writing this.

> I won't want to go and start buying all sorts of stuff
> and equipment without knowing why or then finding that I should have bought
> Y, when I bought X.
>
Its rare when people agree on exactly what you should have. Some types
and models of tools based on what you say you want to do and spend is
about as much you can hope for.

> I'm not a moron, or a dummy or an an idiot, just an ignoramus. I know a
> little. Bits and pieces here and there, but nothing that will give me
> confidence to just dive in.
>
Since I have been playing with soldering etc since elementary school
my advice may not be the best for a newbie. (My mom made a Heathkit TV
when we were little kids).

> First I was told that I should clean my C64 with regular dish detergent and
> a hair dryer. I was told that this would solve many problems. Sounds unsafe,
> but I guess I will try it.
>
I washed my PDP-8 boards. In general water isn't harmful to electronics if
its only around for a short time. The important bit is getting it dry
reasonably quickly. Components like pots etc that aren't sealed can get
water trapped inside and damage them. You also talked about metal EMI
shields. If water gets trapped under them that would also be bad.
I used a filtered air compressor to get most of the water off. The
dust off air cans can be used for similar purpose but to avoid using too
much you may want to only use it to blow out under stuff after the rest of
the board is mostly dry.

I don't know about C64 but in general a reasonable amount of dust doesn't
normally cause operational problem, it just looks bad. Chalk dust in high
school did get conductive on humid days and cause problem with the OSI
computer until it was cleaned off. The fans make the inside of my PC
quite dusty/furry and it runs fine.

> Then I was told that I should buy another C64 since it isn't worth repairing
> them, since they are so plentifully available and cheap. So now I have many
> non-working ones.
> Then I need to replace chips that are bad, so I need to know how to solder
> and de-solder. Which kind of device to get ? There are different wattages
> and if you do it wrong then you burn up your boards(as a friend of  mine
> with more soldering experience did).
>
Here I would recommend a good temperature controlled iron. With the
non temperature controlled iron the wattage sets the tip temperature
to some level. With a proper temperature controlled iron the temperature is
electronically controlled so the wattage just sets how quickly it warms up
and how massive a joint it can heat. If the dial is labeled in degrees
or it has a temperature readout its probably the type you want. If the
temperature knob is labeled 1-10 its probably not actually regulated.

You have a couple options for tools. First is own or use others (IXR, other
nearby collector with tools willing to share). If
your close enough to someone/someplace with tools and aren't using
them frequently that may be a good option. You'll also likely to be able
to get a refresher/help on using them if needed. I haven't seen what they
have.

The next is new or used if buying. Older used tools from a name brand company
hold up pretty well and can sometimes be gotten at a good price (hamfest,
your favorite online locations). Some of
the import tools are also OK and cheap. If going this route search online
to see what people are saying. Some are poor quality. The name brands have
responded to this by having entry level versions of there tools that are
priced reasonable. I think in this thread you saw the pointer to the import
and the entry level name brand iron. You may want to get a couple tips,
the shape can help with different types of soldering. We can show you
proper tip care. If you don't take care of them they will oxidize and if
too bad you will have to replace them.


> Do I get a combination desolder sucker
> ? Or a little squeeze one ? Or a push and suck stick ? Do I get a soldering
> station ?
>
I would recommend only using a good iron since like you said you can damage
boards with too much heat. You may want to play with the removal
methods to see what you like. No mater what you will want solder wick and
flux.  I've also used the push and suck stick before I got the vacuum unit.
This comes down to what works best for you and how much you want to spend.
If your positive the chip is dead cutting off the leads are removing them
individually is the easiest though I'm wrong often enough that I seldom
use that method.

> A braider ? Too many different choices and combinations. I prefer
>
Not sure what this is

> something that will work and not damage my boards, and for desoldering,
> something that won't give me repetitive stress injury.
>
Just spread it out over time if the method causes stress. You won't
need to do that much of it.

> Then I'm told to get a diagnostic cartridge for C64, which works well expect
> when the PLA chip is bad and there you can't see video.
>
I can't comment on which C64 specific tool is best. For the general class
these tools will when they work allow you to quickly find the problem without
needing to understand that much about the computer. When they don't work
your stuck without the basic tools and understanding. If you just want to
fix your C64 and aren't that interested in learning about electronics and
don't think you will get into other classic computers this may be the
way to go. The rest will assume you are interested in more.

> Then I'm told to get a multimeter, how do I use ? Which one to get ? I get
> one, then I'm told there is a better that could have been gotten for a
> little more.
>
That is also what I consider part of the basic tool set. You need to check
power supply voltages etc before worrying about logic. I have one of the
cheap ones in the car. As far as I can tell it works OK. I use better ones
for day to day. I would get one with diode check and continuity beep along
with the other options. Capacitance, inductance measurement I have used though
seldom since the component needs to be removed first. There is always a
better tool for a little more. You can get recommendations but in the end
its how much you wish to spend for what features. If after you get it
it does what you want the decision was fine.

I do have a in series resistance (ISR) tester and transistor tester that
can be used to check components in circuit though I wouldn't put them high
on the list to get.  I have a computer that only has transistors (and
diodes) so more useful there. My last repair was transistors though
it was convenient that it color coded one of the bad parts for me.
http://www.pdp8online.com/pc04/pics/P1030744.shtml?small

> Then I'm told to get a logic probe. Which one ? Again, how to use ?
>
A DVM can also show you the level but doesn't work well for
letting you know about activity.  A logic probe allows you to see the
level of a signal and if it is changing.  A scope shows you the voltage
versus time. If you have a scope you don't need a logic probe. If you
don't the logic probe is useful. I sometimes still use the logic probe
since you can quickly poke around at signals without having to hold it
on while looking back at a screen. I can bring one so you can see what it
does. My first one was a radio shack unit and it worked fine.

> Then I'm told that I don't need an oscilloscope.
>
I did without one for a while, then got a used Tek analog scope, then
recently got a Rigol DS1052E digital scope. The tools control how quickly
and how complex a fault you can troubleshoot but get more expensive as you
get the more complex ones. This is a personal decision and you may wish to
use others tools to start until you know what you want.

> Then I'm told to go to Ray Carlsen's site and that will have everything I
> need. http://personalpages.tds.net/~rcarlsen/cbm.html. Which is very nice,
> but I'm a beginner and I don't need just a bunch of schematics and reference
> material. I need step by step method which explains which tools, techniques
> etc. that I need to do.
>
A step by step instruction to find the common faults is probably doable but
a lot of work. Its probably impossible to make one to find all faults. For the
computers I deal with nobody has created detailed instructions like that.
I took a baby step on the last restoration giving more of the process I
follow. I did not try to make it a step by step procedure. The concepts may
be somewhat useful but otherwise limited usefulness to C64 repair.
http://www.pdp8online.com/straight8/functional_restore.shtml

> Then I'm told that going to the Rob Clarke and Bil Herd workshop would give
> me everything that I need to know. Again it is good information, but not
> hands on, and some of it is beyond my knowledge (
>
If your interested in learning logic you will need to do some general reading
and have discussions with people with more experience. We will help hear
and there are other places to try if we can't answer.

We can help get you started next weekend.

> I'm doomed to keep flopping around learning bits and pieces, trying a little
> here and there. Borrowing stuff etc. I will figure something out sooner or
> later.
>
I think that's how it works for most of us. When I was young my "fixing"
wasn't always that healthy for the item but I learned. Classes later gave me
a fuller understanding.

> Maybe some day when I figure all this out *I* will make a ???Diagnosing and
> Repiring C64 for the ignoramus??? book. I can't use "For Dummies" or
> "Complete
> Idiot", because they are trademark or something already ;)
>
More info targeted at the beginner would be useful.

Hi,

Regarding learning electronics - one of the things I've realized is  that the
SUPERPROTO board might make a good learning tool.  Besides using it for
sophisticated applications,  I really hope some people learn some electronics by
using it for basic experiments.

Though the documentation definitely is a pre alpha, work in progress, I just
added my first experiment to the SUPERPROTO documentation Wiki.  I'm putting it
in Wiki format, because I hope that others will eventually add their projects to
the Wiki, too.

http://www.willegal.net/superproto.

Check out the blinking LED experiment as the kind of learning thing that I am
considering.

I hope to have boards available sometime next month.

Let me know what you think.

Regards,
MIke Willegal

--- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...> wrote:
>
> >> With the discussion on soldering, equipment and accessories, maybe getting
together with some of the more technical DIY guys from the radio club would be a
good idea.
>
> There's plenty of knowledge in this group about such things. The challenge is
our members are all over the map - figuratively (huge range of experience /
inexperience) and literally (we're spread across many states.)
>
> >> Hams in general are more than willing to share what they know
>
> So are veteran MARCHins.  :)
>
> >> perhaps a "Soldering 101" session
>
> IXR (InfoAge-based hackerspace, run by our list member Dan W. ("Nicodermus"))
runs such a workshop every Sunday.
>
> Jeff B: you should attend, we'll just dock the hours from your MARCH paycheck.
;)
>
> But, what Visual is suggesting is similar to the basis of an idea Dan W. and I
discussed offline a few weeks ago. The idea is for an InfoAge-wide "Science
Camp" day/weekend for adults. I figure there are many overlapping skills between
all the member groups. Each group uses these skills in unique ways, but we can
all learn from each other.
>
> I have many ideas for how this could work; will share some tonight.
>

On 06/24/2012 03:15 PM, Mike wrote:
> Regarding learning electronics - one of the things I've realized is  that the
SUPERPROTO board might make a good learning tool.  Besides using it for
sophisticated applications,  I really hope some people learn some electronics by
using it for basic experiments.
>
> Though the documentation definitely is a pre alpha, work in progress, I just
added my first experiment to the SUPERPROTO documentation Wiki.  I'm putting it
in Wiki format, because I hope that others will eventually add their projects to
the Wiki, too.
>
> http://www.willegal.net/superproto.
>
> Check out the blinking LED experiment as the kind of learning thing that I am
considering.
>
> I hope to have boards available sometime next month.
>
> Let me know what you think.

   That looks like a very nice board, and a great idea!

            -Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA