Classes Available:

Monday Nights:
Haverford Middle School, Room #208
6:30 - 8:00 PM
Dates
September 9th, 2003
October 13th, 2003
October 27th, 2003
November 10th, 2003
November 24th, 2003
Registration Phone #: (610)449-9234
(registration begins in late August)

FREE Class:
Easttown Township Library in Berwyn, PA
11:00 A.M. to 12:30 P.M.
Dates
August 16th, 2003

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
<no_reply@y...> wrote:
> Classes Available:
>
> Monday Nights:
> Haverford Middle School, Room #208
> 6:30 - 8:00 PM
> Dates
> September 9th, 2003
> October 13th, 2003
> October 27th, 2003
> November 10th, 2003
> November 24th, 2003
> Registration Phone #: (610)449-9234
> (registration begins in late August)
Note:
These classes are part of the Haverford Adult
School Program, and they set the fee. It is
usually very reasonable ($30 for all 5 classes?).

>
> FREE Class:
> Easttown Township Library in Berwyn, PA
> 11:00 A.M. to 12:30 P.M.
> Dates
> August 16th, 2003

>
> You're welcome, and glad for the chuckle, Bobby.
>
> And yes, we must always keep in mind the
>   unrembemberable.
>
> Love,
> Dan

Hi Dan:

Always good to hear from you.  If you decide to run for prez I will
vote for you.

Love
Bobby G.

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "satkartar7"
<mi_nok@y...> wrote:
> thank you for the answer Bobby, I like
>  the pondering, did you know, that the
>  jewish scholars are still pondering
> on each word's meaning in their scriptures
>  after 1000s of years
>
> hahaha
>
> I had difficulty understanding Ramana
>  when he talks about the deep sleep consciousness...
>
> someone please help me out with the
> exact quote

Hi Karta:

> using your distinction of being
> 'conscious' than one would say in
> that one is not conscious, but the Consciousness is there

For me it is the matter of subject-object.  Consciousness is the
subject.  It cannot be object by its nature.  Me, as a person can be
an object, that is, I can be acted upon.  I can be the object of an
action.  I can also do the action and thus I can be the subject also.

But Consciousness cannot be the object because it has the distinction
of being the universal subject.  It is the I in me and the I in you.
It is the I of the universe.  Thus it is said to be the universe.

>
> My understanding is, that an
> individual's consciousness has an
> unconscious component also and has
> states: dream, waking, and deep sleep.
>
> If the whole is 100%, it is said, that
>  in the waking state we use 15% of that.
>
> it was mentioned, that in the deep
> sleep and dream states the whole 100%
> is accessed.
>
> Now with the model of Consciousness
> with the capital C I came up for myself
>  while reading Nisargadatta and it is imagined by me as an
omnipresent
> omnipotent omniscient Awareness of
> the whole, like God,

I agree with this idea.

>no way of being conscious of that maybe have cosmic
> glimpses into it  and it is a whole
> different story

I don't agree with this.

>
> Listening to Grof, how he talked about
>  the collective unconscious [Jung]
> and that to change it could be and
> should be done only by individuals,
> many of them waking up to this responsibility.
>
> I am interested in that!  gaia needs
>  to be repaired looking at the present
>  day of affairs, violence etc

You are in the universe.  Repair yourself!

>
> and my question arose, what is the
> connection of the collective
> unconscious Grof is talking about to
>  the Consciousness concept ala
> Nisargadatta
>
>   love, Karta
>

If the collective Unconscious  is the genetic memory it still is
nothing more than tendencies the organism possesses.  This to me is
the mental.

What comes first, the physical universe or the mental?  One can say
the physical evolves to the point where people are created that have
consciousness.  But how would the physical universe know how to do
that without the mental world as a plan?

I have read that at the bottom of matter is energy and at the bottom
of energy is mind and at the bottom of mind is spirit.

And I have read that involution is the period of time it takes for
the mental plan for a universe to come into being and an equal amount
of time is required for the evolution of that universe  to produce an
environment for a species to become self aware.  Thus mind creates
the physical which creates the mind again.

As long as the structure for understanding you use dictates that
Consciousness is possessed by people as an attribute I don't believe
you will access Nisargadatta's understanding.

I don't see a correlation between the Collective Unconscious and
Consciousness.  I think they come from different levels of the
Spectrum of Consciousness (Ken Wilber)

Love,
Bobby G.

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "satkartar7"
<mi_nok@y...> wrote:
> I think Grof also works with a model wqhich is void of
> reincarnation, but with the pool of collective unconscious from
> where each one of is born with with genetic memory
>
> BTW Gene, Bruce, Greg and I hold similar undertsanding about this
> subject
>
>
> Psychology of the Future: Lessons from Modern Consciousness
Research
>
> Grof, Stanislava
>
> More than forty years ago, a powerful experience lasting only
> several hours of clock-time profoundly changed my personal and
> professional life. As a young psychiatric resident, only a few
> months after my graduation from medical school, I volunteered for
an
> experiment with LSD, a substance with remarkable psychoactive
> properties that had been discovered by the Swiss chemist Albert
> Hofmann in the Sandoz pharmaceutical laboratories in Basel.
>
> This session, particularly its culmination period during which I
had
> an overwhelming and indescribable experience of cosmic
> consciousness, awakened in me an intense lifelong interest in
> nonordinary states of consciousness. Since that time, most of my
> clinical and research activities have consisted of systematic
> exploration of the therapeutic, transformative, and evolutionary
> potential of these states. The four decades that I have dedicated
to
> consciousness research have been for me an extraordinary adventure
> of discovery and self-discovery. (page ix)
>
> This book is an attempt to point out in a systematic and
> comprehensive way the areas that require a radical revision and to
> suggest the direction and nature of the necessary changes. The
> conceptual challenges presented by consciousness research are very
> fundamental and cannot be resolved by a minor conceptual patchwork
> of a few ad hoc hypotheses. In my opinion, the nature and scope of
> the conceptual crisis facing psychology and psychiatry is
comparable
> to the situation introduced at the beginning of the twentieth
> century into physics by the results of the Michelson-Morley
> experiment. (page xi)
>
> The observations from holotropic states seriously undermine the
> fundamental cornerstone of materialistic thinking, the belief in
the
> primacy of matter and in the absence of the spiritual dimension in
> the fabric of existence. They bring direct experiential and
> empirical evidence that spirituality is a critical and legitimate
> attribute of the human psyche and of the universal scheme of
things.
> This important topic is given special attention in the book. It is
> argued that, properly understood, spirituality and science are not
> and cannot be in conflict, but represent two complementary
> approaches to existence. (page xii)
>
> Chapter 1. Healing and Heuristic Potential of Nonordinary States
of
> Consciousness
> Forty years of intensive and systematic research of holotropic
> states of consciousness led me to the conclusion that radical
inner
> transformation of humanity and rise to a higher level of
> consciousness might be our only real hope for the future. I would
> like to believe that those who are about to embark on the inner
> journey, or are traveling it already, will find this book and the
> information presented in it to be useful companions in this
> challenging adventure. (page xiii)
>
> In this book, I will focus on a large and important subgroup of
non-
> ordinary states of consciousness which significantly differ from
the
> rest and represent an invaluable source of new information about
the
> human psyche in health and disease. They also have a remarkable
> therapeutic and transformative potential. Over the years, daily
> clinical observations convinced me about the extraordinary nature
of
> these experiences and about the far-reaching implications they
have
> for the theory and practice of psychiatry. I found it difficult to
> believe that contemporary psychiatry does not recognize their
> specific features and does not have a special name for them.
>
> Because I feel strongly that they deserve to be distinguished from
> the rest and placed into a special category, I have coined for
them
> the name holotropic. This composite word literally means "oriented
> toward wholeness" or "moving in the direction of wholeness" (from
> the Greek holos = whole and trepein = moving toward or in the
> direction of something). The full meaning of this term and the
> justification for its use will become clear later in this book. It
> suggests that in our everyday state of consciousness we identify
> with only a small fraction of who we already are. In holotropic
> states, we can transcend the narrow boundaries of the body ego and
> reclaim our full identity. (page 2)
>
> In spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, mainstream
> psychiatrists continue to view all holotropic states of
> consciousness as pathological, disregard the information generated
> in researching them, and do not distinguish between mystical
states
> and psychosis. They also continue using various pharmacological
> means to suppress indiscriminately all spontaneously occurring
> nonordinary states of consciousness. It is remarkable to what
extent
> mainstream science has ignored, distorted, and misinterpreted all
> the evidence concerning holotropic states, whether their source
has
> been historical study, comparative religion, anthropology, or
> various areas of modern consciousness research, such as
> parapsychology, psychedelic therapy, experiential psychotherapies,
> hypnosis, thanatology, or work with laboratory mind-altering
> techniques.
>
> The rigidity with which mainstream scientists have dealt with the
> information amassed by all these disciplines is something that one
> would expect from religious fundamentalists. It is very surprising
> when such attitude occurs in the world of science, since it is
> contrary to the very spirit of scientific inquiry. More than four
> decades that I have spent in consciousness research have convinced
> me that serious examination of the data from the study of
holotropic
> states would have far-reaching consequences not only for the
theory
> and practice of psychiatry, but for the Western scientific
> worldview. The only way modern science can preserve its monistic
> materialistic philosophy is by systematically excluding and
> censoring all the data concerning holotropic states. (page 16)
>
> Chapter Six: Spirituality and Religion
> To prevent misunderstanding and confusion that in past compromised
> many similar discussions, it is critical to make a clear
distinction
> between spirituality and religion. Spirituality is based on direct
> experiences of nonordinary aspects and dimensions of reality. It
> does not require a special place or an officially appointed person
> mediating contact with the divine. The mystics do not need
churches
> or temples. The context in which they experience the sacred
> dimensions of reality, including their own divinity, are their
> bodies and nature. And instead of officiating priests, they need a
> supportive group of fellow seekers or the guidance of a teacher
who
> is more advanced on the inner journey than they are themselves.
>
> Direct spiritual experiences appear in two different forms. The
> first of these, the experience of the immanent divine, involves
> subtly, but profoundly transformed perception of the everyday
> reality. A person having this form of spiritual experience sees
> people, animals, and the inanimate objects in the environment as
> radiant manifestations of a unified field of cosmic creative
energy
> and realizes that the boundaries between them are illusory and
> unreal. This is a direct experience of nature as god, Spinoza's
deus
> sive natura. Using the analogy with television, this experience
> could be likened to a situation where a black and white picture
> would suddenly change into one in vivid "living color." In both
> cases, much of the old perception of the world remains in place,
but
> is radically redefined by the addiction of a new dimension.
>
> The second form of spiritual experience, that of the transcendent
> divine, involves manifestation of archetypal beings and realms of
> reality that are ordinarily transphenomenal, unavailable to
> perception in the everyday state of consciousness. In this type of
> spiritual experience, entirely new elements seem to "unfold"
> or "explicate," to borrow terms from David Bohm, from another
level
> of order of reality. When we return to the analogy with
television,
> this would be like discovering that there exist channels other
than
> the one we have previously been watching. (pages 210-211)
>
> Spirituality involves a special kind of relationship between the
> individual and the cosmos and is, in its essence, a personal and
> private affair. By comparison, organized religion is
> institutionalized group activity that takes place in a designated
> location, a temple or a church, and involves a system of appointed
> officials who might or might not have had personal experiences of
> spiritual realities. ...
>
> Brother Steindl-Rast, a Benedictine monk and Christian
philosopher,
> uses a beautiful metaphor to illustrate this situation. He
compares
> the original mystical experience to the glowing magma of an
> exploding volcano, which is exciting, dynamic, and alive. After we
> have this experience, we feel the need to put it into a conceptual
> framework and formulate a doctrine. The mystical state represents
a
> precious memory and we might create a ritual that will remind us
of
> this momentous event. The experience connects us with the cosmic
> order and this has profound direct impact on our ethics - system
of
> values, moral standards, and behavior. (page 211)
>
> In visionary states, the experiences of other realities or of new
> perspectives on our everyday reality are so convincing and
> compelling that the individuals who have had them have no other
> choice than to incorporate them into their worldview. It is thus
> systematic experiential exposure to holotropic states of
> consciousness, on the one side, and the absence thereof, on the
> other, that sets the native cultures and technological societies
> ideologically so far apart. I have not yet met a single European,
> American, or member of one of the other technologized societies,
who
> has had a deep experience of the transcendental realms and
continues
> to subscribe to the worldview of Western materialistic science.
This
> development is quite independent of the level of intelligence,
type
> and degree of education, or professional credentials of the
> individuals involved. (page 218)
>
> Chapter Seven. The Experience of Death and Dying: Psychological,
> Philosophical, and Spiritual Perspectives.
> Conversely, it became clear that experiential confrontation with
> death in the course of therapy has important healing,
> transformative, and evolutionary potential. This research also
> revealed that the attitude toward death and coming to terms with
it
> has important implications for the quality of one's life,
hierarchy
> of values, and strategy of existence. Experiential encounter with
> death, whether it is symbolic (in meditation, psychedelic
sessions,
> spiritual emergency, or holotropic breathwork) or real (in an
> accident, in war, in a concentration camp, or during a heart
attack)
> can lead to a powerful spiritual opening. (page 220)
>
> ... Modern consciousness research has thus shown that the ancient
> eschatological texts are actually maps of the inner territories of
> the psyche encountered in profound holotropic states, including
> those associated with biological dying.
>
> It is possible to spend one's entire lifetime without ever
> experiencing these realms or even being aware of their existence,
> until one is catapulted into them at the time of biological death.
> However, some people are able to explore this experiential
territory
> while they are still alive. Among the tools that make this
possible
> are psychedelic substances, powerful forms of experiential
> psychotherapy, serious spiritual practice, and participation in
> shamanic rituals. For many people, similar experiences occur
> spontaneously, without any known triggers, during psychospiritual
> crises (spiritual emergencies).
>
> All these situations offer the possibility of deep experiential
> exploration of the inner territories of the psyche at a time when
we
> are healthy and strong, so that the encounter with death does not
> come as a complete surprise at the time of biological demise. The
> seventeenth-century German Augustinian monk, Abraham of Santa
Clara,
> expressed in a succinct way the importance of the experiential
> practice of dying: "The man who dies before he dies does not die
> when he dies."
>
> This "dying before dying" has two important consequences: It
> liberates us from the fear of death and changes our attitude
toward
> it. This eases considerably our experience of actually leaving the
> body at the time of our biological demise. At the same time, the
> elimination of the fear of death also transforms our way of being
in
> the world. There is thus no fundamental difference between
> preparation for death and the practice of dying, on the one hand,
> and spiritual practice leading to enlightenment, on the other. For
> this reason, the ancient books of the dead could be used in both
> situations (pages 228-229)
>
> Psychedelic Therapy in Patients with Terminal Diseases
> In the late 1960s and early 1970s, I had the privilege to
> participate for several years in a research program of psychedelic
> psychotherapy for terminal cancer patients, which was without a
> doubt the most radical and interesting attempt to alleviate the
> suffering of patients with incurable diseases and transform their
> experience of dying. It was one of the most moving experiences of
my
> life to see how the attitude toward death and the experience of
> dying of many terminal cancer patients was transformed by profound
> mystical experiences in psychedelic sessions. (page 248)
>
> The most important and striking effect of LSD in terminal cancer
> patients was a profound change in the concept of death. Deep
> experiences of psychospiritual death and rebirth, cosmic unity,
past-
> life memories, and other transpersonal forms of consciousness seem
> to render physical death much less frightening. The fact that
these
> experiences occur in a complex psychospiritual, mythological, and
> philosophical context cannot be dismissed as momentary delusional
> self-deception resulting from impaired brain functioning.
>
> Psychedelic experiences that reach the perinatal and transpersonal
> level also typically have profound effect on the patients'
hierarchy
> of values and life strategy. Psychological acceptance of
> impermanence and death results in realization of the futility and
> absurdity of grandiose ambitions and attachment to money, status,
> fame, and power, as well as pursuit of other temporary values.
This
> makes it easier to face the termination of one's secular goals and
> the impending loss of all worldly possessions. Another important
> shift occurs in time orientation; the past and future become much
> less important than the present moment and "living one day at a
> time."
>
> This is associated with increased zest, as well as a tendency to
> appreciate and enjoy every moment of life, and to derive pleasure
> from simple things like nature, food, sex, music, and human
company.
> There is also typically a major increase in spirituality of a
> mystical, universal, and ecumenical nature, which is not related
to
> any specific church affiliation. We have also seen instances where
a
> dying individual's traditional religious beliefs were illuminated
by
> new dimensions of meaning. (pages 255-256)
>
> Chapter Eight. The Cosmic Game: Exploration of the Furthest
Reaches
> of Human Consciousness
> The preceding chapters of this book focused primarily on the
> implications of the research of holotropic states of consciousness
> for psychiatry, psychology, and psychotherapy. However, this work
> also generates many interesting philosophical, metaphysical, and
> spiritual insights. Irrespective of the initial motivation of the
> person involved and his or her background, systematic disciplined
> self-exploration using holotropic states in a good set and setting
> sooner or later tends to take the form of a deep philosophical and
> spiritual quest. I have seen on numerous occasions that people
whose
> primary interest in psychedelic sessions or in the holotropic
> breathwork was therapeutic, professional, or artistic, suddenly
> started asking the most fundamental questions about existence when
> their inner process reached the transpersonal level. (page 269)
>
> The Ensouled Nature and the Archetypal Domain
> If we feel embarrassed by our discovery, we might prefer to use
> modern terminology such as numinous instead of sacred and
archetypal
> figures instead of deities and demons. But we can no longer
dismiss
> these experiences as mere hallucinations or fantasies. Deep
personal
> experiences of this realm help us realize that the images of the
> cosmos found in preindustrial societies are not based on
> superstition, primitive "magical thinking," or psychotic visions,
> but on authentic experiences of alternate realities. The research
of
> holotropic states has brought ample evidence that there are
> transphenomenal dimensions of existence that are ontologically
real
> and that they often can withstand the test of consensual
validation.
> (page 271)
>
> ... When we are involved in systematic self-exploration or
spiritual
> practice, it is important to avoid the pitfall of making a
> particular deity opaque and seeing it as the ultimate cosmic force
> rather than a window into the Absolute.
>
> Mistaking a specific archetypal image for the ultimate source of
> creation or for its only true representation leads to idolatry, a
> divisive and dangerous mistake widespread in the histories of
> religions and cultures. It might unite the people who share the
same
> belief, but sets this group against another one that has chosen a
> different representation of the divine. They might then try to
> convert others or conquer and eliminate them. By contrast, genuine
> religion is universal, all-inclusive, and all-encompassing. It has
> to transcend specific culture-bound archetypal images and focus on
> the ultimate source of all forms. The most important question in
the
> world of religion is thus the nature of the supreme principle in
the
> universe. (page 271)
>
> Experience of the Supreme Cosmic Principle
> Individuals involved in systematic self-exploration with the use
of
> holotropic states repeatedly describe this process as a
> philosophical and spiritual quest. This inspired me to search the
> records from psychedelic and holotropic sessions, as well as
reports
> from people who were undergoing spiritual emergency, for
experiences
> that would convey the sense that his quest reached its goal, its
> final destination. I found out that people who have the experience
> of the Absolute that fully satisfies their spiritual longing
> typically do not see any specific figurative images. When they
feel
> that they have attained the goal of their mystical and
philosophical
> quest, their descriptions of the supreme principle are highly
> abstract and strikingly similar.
>
> Those who report such an ultimate revelation show quite remarkable
> agreement in describing the experiential characteristics of this
> state. They report that the experience of the Supreme involved
> transcendence of all the limitations of the analytical mind, all
> rational categories, and all the constraints of ordinary logic.
This
> experience was not bound by the usual limitations of three-
> dimensional space and linear time, as we know them from everyday
> life. It also contained all conceivable polarities in an
inseparable
> amalgam and thus transcended dualities of any kind.
>
> Time after time, people compared the Absolute to a radiant source
of
> light of unimaginable intensity, through they emphasized that it
> also differed in some significant aspects from any form of light
> that we know in the material world. To describe the Absolute as
> light, as much as it seems appropriate in a certain sense,
entirely
> misses some of its essential characteristics, particularly in the
> fact that it also is an immense and unfathomable field of
> consciousness endowed with infinite intelligence and creative
power.
> Another attribute that is regularly mentioned is an exquisite
sense
> of humor ("cosmic humor").
>
> The supreme cosmic principle can be experienced in two different
> ways. Sometimes, all personal boundaries dissolve or are
drastically
> obliterated and we completely merge with the divine source,
becoming
> one with it and indistinguishable from it. Other times, we
maintain
> the sense of separate identity, assuming the role of an astonished
> observer who is witnessing, as if from the outside, the mysterium
> tremendum of existence. Or, like some mystics, we might feel the
> ecstasy of an enraptured lover experiencing the encounter with the
> Beloved. Spiritual literature of all ages abounds in descriptions
of
> both types of experiences of the divine.
>
> The encounter with Absolute Consciousness or identification with
it
> is not the only way to experience the supreme principle in the
> cosmos or the ultimate reality. The second type of experience that
> seems to satisfy those who search for ultimate answers is
> particularly surprising, since it has no specific content. It is
the
> identification with Cosmic Emptiness and Nothingness described in
> the mystical literature as the Void. ...
>
> When we reach experiential identification with the Absolute, we
> realize that our own being is ultimately commensurate with the
> entire cosmic network, with all of existence. The recognition of
our
> own divine nature, our identity with the cosmic source, is the
most
> important discovery we can make during the process of deep
> exploration. ... (pages 273-276)
>
> Chapter Nine. Consciousness Evolution and Human Survival:
> Transpersonal Perspective on the Global Crisis
>
> Psychospiritual Roots of the Global Crisis
> The task of imbuing humanity with an entirely different set of
> values and goals might appear too unrealistic and utopian to offer
> any real hope. Considering the paramount role of violence and
greed
> in human history, the possibility of transforming modern humanity
> into a species of individuals capable of peaceful coexistence with
> their fellow men and women regardless of race, color, and
religious
> or political conviction, let alone with other species, certainly
> does not seem very plausible. We are facing the necessity to
instill
> humanity with profound ethical values, sensitivity to the needs of
> others, acceptance of voluntary simplicity, and a sharp awareness
of
> ecological imperatives. At first glance, such a task appears too
> fantastic even for a science-fiction movie.
>
> However, although serious and critical, the situation might not be
> as hopeless as it appears. After more than forty years of
intensive
> study of holotropic states of consciousness, I have come to the
> conclusion that the theoretical concepts and practical approaches
> developed by transpersonal psychology, a discipline that is trying
> to integrate spirituality with the new paradigm emerging in
Western
> science, could help alleviate the crisis we are all facing. These
> observations suggest that radical psychospiritual transformation
of
> humanity is not only possible, but is already underway. The
question
> is only whether it can be sufficiently fast and extensive to
reverse
> the current self-destructive trend of modern humanity. (pages 296-
> 297)
>
> We seem to be involved in a dramatic race for time that has no
> precedent in the entire history of humanity. What is at stake is
> nothing less than the future of life on this planet. If we
continue
> the old strategies which in their consequences are clearly
extremely
> self-destructive, it is unlikely that the human species will
> survive. However, if a sufficient number of people undergo a
process
> of deep inner transformation, we might reach a level of
> consciousness evolution when we deserve the proud name we have
given
> to species: homo sapiens. (page 324)
>
>
>  http://www.csp.org/chrestomathy/psychology_of-grof.html


KARTA!!!! It is true that you read so much! Wow, aren't you still
exhausted?

The love you are looking for is YOU. So hurry up (in stopping so
much research and starting to search in the stillness of your-self),
for the only life you have to find it is this one (wether there is
reincarnation or not).

Love-You
ml

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "satkartar7"
<mi_nok@y...> wrote:
> I think Grof also works with a model wqhich is void of
> reincarnation, but with the pool of collective unconscious from
> where each one of is born with with genetic memory
>
> BTW Gene, Bruce, Greg and I hold similar undertsanding about this
> subject
>
>
> Psychology of the Future: Lessons from Modern Consciousness Research
>
> Grof, Stanislava
>
> More than forty years ago, a powerful experience lasting only
> several hours of clock-time profoundly changed my personal and
> professional life.

Karta, thanks, that was a long, but very interesting read. -Nina

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "mlcanow"
<mlcanow@y...> wrote:
> KARTA!!!! It is true that you read so much! Wow, aren't you still
> exhausted?
>
> The love you are looking for is YOU. So hurry up (in stopping so
> much research and starting to search in the stillness of your-
self),
> for the only life you have to find it is this one (wether there is
> reincarnation or not).
>
> Love-You
> ml

Ah, Maria-Luisa, give it a rest. The intellect is as much a gift as
the heart. You act as though one can only exist without the other.

blah blah,
Nina

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 03:49:00 -0000 "mlcanow" <mlcanow@...> writes:
> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "satkartar7"
> <mi_nok@y...> wrote:
> > I think Grof also works with a model wqhich is void of
> > reincarnation, but with the pool of collective unconscious from
> > where each one of is born with with genetic memory
> >
> > BTW Gene, Bruce, Greg and I hold similar undertsanding about this
>
> > subject
> >
> >
> > Psychology of the Future: Lessons from Modern Consciousness
> Research
> >
> > Grof, Stanislava
> >
> > More than forty years ago, a powerful experience lasting only
> > several hours of clock-time profoundly changed my personal and
> > professional life. As a young psychiatric resident, only a few
> > months after my graduation from medical school, I volunteered for
>
> an
> > experiment with LSD, a substance with remarkable psychoactive
> > properties that had been discovered by the Swiss chemist Albert
> > Hofmann in the Sandoz pharmaceutical laboratories in Basel.
> >
> > This session, particularly its culmination period during which I
> had
> > an overwhelming and indescribable experience of cosmic
> > consciousness, awakened in me an intense lifelong interest in
> > nonordinary states of consciousness. Since that time, most of my
> > clinical and research activities have consisted of systematic
> > exploration of the therapeutic, transformative, and evolutionary
> > potential of these states. The four decades that I have dedicated
>
> to
> > consciousness research have been for me an extraordinary adventure
>
> > of discovery and self-discovery. (page ix)
> >
> > This book is an attempt to point out in a systematic and
> > comprehensive way the areas that require a radical revision and to
>
> > suggest the direction and nature of the necessary changes. The
> > conceptual challenges presented by consciousness research are very
>
> > fundamental and cannot be resolved by a minor conceptual patchwork
>
> > of a few ad hoc hypotheses. In my opinion, the nature and scope of
>
> > the conceptual crisis facing psychology and psychiatry is
> comparable
> > to the situation introduced at the beginning of the twentieth
> > century into physics by the results of the Michelson-Morley
> > experiment. (page xi)
> >
> > The observations from holotropic states seriously undermine the
> > fundamental cornerstone of materialistic thinking, the belief in
> the
> > primacy of matter and in the absence of the spiritual dimension in
>
> > the fabric of existence. They bring direct experiential and
> > empirical evidence that spirituality is a critical and legitimate
>
> > attribute of the human psyche and of the universal scheme of
> things.
> > This important topic is given special attention in the book. It is
>
> > argued that, properly understood, spirituality and science are not
>
> > and cannot be in conflict, but represent two complementary
> > approaches to existence. (page xii)
> >
> > Chapter 1. Healing and Heuristic Potential of Nonordinary States
> of
> > Consciousness
> > Forty years of intensive and systematic research of holotropic
> > states of consciousness led me to the conclusion that radical
> inner
> > transformation of humanity and rise to a higher level of
> > consciousness might be our only real hope for the future. I would
>
> > like to believe that those who are about to embark on the inner
> > journey, or are traveling it already, will find this book and the
>
> > information presented in it to be useful companions in this
> > challenging adventure. (page xiii)
> >
> > In this book, I will focus on a large and important subgroup of
> non-
> > ordinary states of consciousness which significantly differ from
> the
> > rest and represent an invaluable source of new information about
> the
> > human psyche in health and disease. They also have a remarkable
> > therapeutic and transformative potential. Over the years, daily
> > clinical observations convinced me about the extraordinary nature
>
> of
> > these experiences and about the far-reaching implications they
> have
> > for the theory and practice of psychiatry. I found it difficult to
>
> > believe that contemporary psychiatry does not recognize their
> > specific features and does not have a special name for them.
> >
> > Because I feel strongly that they deserve to be distinguished from
>
> > the rest and placed into a special category, I have coined for
> them
> > the name holotropic. This composite word literally means "oriented
>
> > toward wholeness" or "moving in the direction of wholeness" (from
>
> > the Greek holos = whole and trepein = moving toward or in the
> > direction of something). The full meaning of this term and the
> > justification for its use will become clear later in this book. It
>
> > suggests that in our everyday state of consciousness we identify
> > with only a small fraction of who we already are. In holotropic
> > states, we can transcend the narrow boundaries of the body ego and
>
> > reclaim our full identity. (page 2)
> >
> > In spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, mainstream
> > psychiatrists continue to view all holotropic states of
> > consciousness as pathological, disregard the information generated
>
> > in researching them, and do not distinguish between mystical
> states
> > and psychosis. They also continue using various pharmacological
> > means to suppress indiscriminately all spontaneously occurring
> > nonordinary states of consciousness. It is remarkable to what
> extent
> > mainstream science has ignored, distorted, and misinterpreted all
>
> > the evidence concerning holotropic states, whether their source
> has
> > been historical study, comparative religion, anthropology, or
> > various areas of modern consciousness research, such as
> > parapsychology, psychedelic therapy, experiential psychotherapies,
>
> > hypnosis, thanatology, or work with laboratory mind-altering
> > techniques.
> >
> > The rigidity with which mainstream scientists have dealt with the
>
> > information amassed by all these disciplines is something that one
>
> > would expect from religious fundamentalists. It is very surprising
>
> > when such attitude occurs in the world of science, since it is
> > contrary to the very spirit of scientific inquiry. More than four
>
> > decades that I have spent in consciousness research have convinced
>
> > me that serious examination of the data from the study of
> holotropic
> > states would have far-reaching consequences not only for the
> theory
> > and practice of psychiatry, but for the Western scientific
> > worldview. The only way modern science can preserve its monistic
> > materialistic philosophy is by systematically excluding and
> > censoring all the data concerning holotropic states. (page 16)
> >
> > Chapter Six: Spirituality and Religion
> > To prevent misunderstanding and confusion that in past compromised
>
> > many similar discussions, it is critical to make a clear
> distinction
> > between spirituality and religion. Spirituality is based on direct
>
> > experiences of nonordinary aspects and dimensions of reality. It
> > does not require a special place or an officially appointed person
>
> > mediating contact with the divine. The mystics do not need
> churches
> > or temples. The context in which they experience the sacred
> > dimensions of reality, including their own divinity, are their
> > bodies and nature. And instead of officiating priests, they need a
>
> > supportive group of fellow seekers or the guidance of a teacher
> who
> > is more advanced on the inner journey than they are themselves.
> >
> > Direct spiritual experiences appear in two different forms. The
> > first of these, the experience of the immanent divine, involves
> > subtly, but profoundly transformed perception of the everyday
> > reality. A person having this form of spiritual experience sees
> > people, animals, and the inanimate objects in the environment as
> > radiant manifestations of a unified field of cosmic creative
> energy
> > and realizes that the boundaries between them are illusory and
> > unreal. This is a direct experience of nature as god, Spinoza's
> deus
> > sive natura. Using the analogy with television, this experience
> > could be likened to a situation where a black and white picture
> > would suddenly change into one in vivid "living color." In both
> > cases, much of the old perception of the world remains in place,
> but
> > is radically redefined by the addiction of a new dimension.
> >
> > The second form of spiritual experience, that of the transcendent
>
> > divine, involves manifestation of archetypal beings and realms of
>
> > reality that are ordinarily transphenomenal, unavailable to
> > perception in the everyday state of consciousness. In this type of
>
> > spiritual experience, entirely new elements seem to "unfold"
> > or "explicate," to borrow terms from David Bohm, from another
> level
> > of order of reality. When we return to the analogy with
> television,
> > this would be like discovering that there exist channels other
> than
> > the one we have previously been watching. (pages 210-211)
> >
> > Spirituality involves a special kind of relationship between the
> > individual and the cosmos and is, in its essence, a personal and
> > private affair. By comparison, organized religion is
> > institutionalized group activity that takes place in a designated
>
> > location, a temple or a church, and involves a system of appointed
>
> > officials who might or might not have had personal experiences of
>
> > spiritual realities. ...
> >
> > Brother Steindl-Rast, a Benedictine monk and Christian
> philosopher,
> > uses a beautiful metaphor to illustrate this situation. He
> compares
> > the original mystical experience to the glowing magma of an
> > exploding volcano, which is exciting, dynamic, and alive. After we
>
> > have this experience, we feel the need to put it into a conceptual
>
> > framework and formulate a doctrine. The mystical state represents
>
> a
> > precious memory and we might create a ritual that will remind us
> of
> > this momentous event. The experience connects us with the cosmic
> > order and this has profound direct impact on our ethics - system
> of
> > values, moral standards, and behavior. (page 211)
> >
> > In visionary states, the experiences of other realities or of new
>
> > perspectives on our everyday reality are so convincing and
> > compelling that the individuals who have had them have no other
> > choice than to incorporate them into their worldview. It is thus
> > systematic experiential exposure to holotropic states of
> > consciousness, on the one side, and the absence thereof, on the
> > other, that sets the native cultures and technological societies
> > ideologically so far apart. I have not yet met a single European,
>
> > American, or member of one of the other technologized societies,
> who
> > has had a deep experience of the transcendental realms and
> continues
> > to subscribe to the worldview of Western materialistic science.
> This
> > development is quite independent of the level of intelligence,
> type
> > and degree of education, or professional credentials of the
> > individuals involved. (page 218)
> >
> > Chapter Seven. The Experience of Death and Dying: Psychological,
> > Philosophical, and Spiritual Perspectives.
> > Conversely, it became clear that experiential confrontation with
> > death in the course of therapy has important healing,
> > transformative, and evolutionary potential. This research also
> > revealed that the attitude toward death and coming to terms with
> it
> > has important implications for the quality of one's life,
> hierarchy
> > of values, and strategy of existence. Experiential encounter with
>
> > death, whether it is symbolic (in meditation, psychedelic
> sessions,
> > spiritual emergency, or holotropic breathwork) or real (in an
> > accident, in war, in a concentration camp, or during a heart
> attack)
> > can lead to a powerful spiritual opening. (page 220)
> >
> > ... Modern consciousness research has thus shown that the ancient
>
> > eschatological texts are actually maps of the inner territories of
>
> > the psyche encountered in profound holotropic states, including
> > those associated with biological dying.
> >
> > It is possible to spend one's entire lifetime without ever
> > experiencing these realms or even being aware of their existence,
>
> > until one is catapulted into them at the time of biological death.
>
> > However, some people are able to explore this experiential
> territory
> > while they are still alive. Among the tools that make this
> possible
> > are psychedelic substances, powerful forms of experiential
> > psychotherapy, serious spiritual practice, and participation in
> > shamanic rituals. For many people, similar experiences occur
> > spontaneously, without any known triggers, during psychospiritual
>
> > crises (spiritual emergencies).
> >
> > All these situations offer the possibility of deep experiential
> > exploration of the inner territories of the psyche at a time when
>
> we
> > are healthy and strong, so that the encounter with death does not
>
> > come as a complete surprise at the time of biological demise. The
>
> > seventeenth-century German Augustinian monk, Abraham of Santa
> Clara,
> > expressed in a succinct way the importance of the experiential
> > practice of dying: "The man who dies before he dies does not die
> > when he dies."
> >
> > This "dying before dying" has two important consequences: It
> > liberates us from the fear of death and changes our attitude
> toward
> > it. This eases considerably our experience of actually leaving the
>
> > body at the time of our biological demise. At the same time, the
> > elimination of the fear of death also transforms our way of being
>
> in
> > the world. There is thus no fundamental difference between
> > preparation for death and the practice of dying, on the one hand,
>
> > and spiritual practice leading to enlightenment, on the other. For
>
> > this reason, the ancient books of the dead could be used in both
> > situations (pages 228-229)
> >
> > Psychedelic Therapy in Patients with Terminal Diseases
> > In the late 1960s and early 1970s, I had the privilege to
> > participate for several years in a research program of psychedelic
>
> > psychotherapy for terminal cancer patients, which was without a
> > doubt the most radical and interesting attempt to alleviate the
> > suffering of patients with incurable diseases and transform their
>
> > experience of dying. It was one of the most moving experiences of
>
> my
> > life to see how the attitude toward death and the experience of
> > dying of many terminal cancer patients was transformed by profound
>
> > mystical experiences in psychedelic sessions. (page 248)
> >
> > The most important and striking effect of LSD in terminal cancer
> > patients was a profound change in the concept of death. Deep
> > experiences of psychospiritual death and rebirth, cosmic unity,
> past-
> > life memories, and other transpersonal forms of consciousness seem
>
> > to render physical death much less frightening. The fact that
> these
> > experiences occur in a complex psychospiritual, mythological, and
>
> > philosophical context cannot be dismissed as momentary delusional
>
> > self-deception resulting from impaired brain functioning.
> >
> > Psychedelic experiences that reach the perinatal and transpersonal
>
> > level also typically have profound effect on the patients'
> hierarchy
> > of values and life strategy. Psychological acceptance of
> > impermanence and death results in realization of the futility and
>
> > absurdity of grandiose ambitions and attachment to money, status,
>
> > fame, and power, as well as pursuit of other temporary values.
> This
> > makes it easier to face the termination of one's secular goals and
>
> > the impending loss of all worldly possessions. Another important
> > shift occurs in time orientation; the past and future become much
>
> > less important than the present moment and "living one day at a
> > time."
> >
> > This is associated with increased zest, as well as a tendency to
> > appreciate and enjoy every moment of life, and to derive pleasure
>
> > from simple things like nature, food, sex, music, and human
> company.
> > There is also typically a major increase in spirituality of a
> > mystical, universal, and ecumenical nature, which is not related
> to
> > any specific church affiliation. We have also seen instances where
>
> a
> > dying individual's traditional religious beliefs were illuminated
>
> by
> > new dimensions of meaning. (pages 255-256)
> >
> > Chapter Eight. The Cosmic Game: Exploration of the Furthest
> Reaches
> > of Human Consciousness
> > The preceding chapters of this book focused primarily on the
> > implications of the research of holotropic states of consciousness
>
> > for psychiatry, psychology, and psychotherapy. However, this work
>
> > also generates many interesting philosophical, metaphysical, and
> > spiritual insights. Irrespective of the initial motivation of the
>
> > person involved and his or her background, systematic disciplined
>
> > self-exploration using holotropic states in a good set and setting
>
> > sooner or later tends to take the form of a deep philosophical and
>
> > spiritual quest. I have seen on numerous occasions that people
> whose
> > primary interest in psychedelic sessions or in the holotropic
> > breathwork was therapeutic, professional, or artistic, suddenly
> > started asking the most fundamental questions about existence when
>
> > their inner process reached the transpersonal level. (page 269)
> >
> > The Ensouled Nature and the Archetypal Domain
> > If we feel embarrassed by our discovery, we might prefer to use
> > modern terminology such as numinous instead of sacred and
> archetypal
> > figures instead of deities and demons. But we can no longer
> dismiss
> > these experiences as mere hallucinations or fantasies. Deep
> personal
> > experiences of this realm help us realize that the images of the
> > cosmos found in preindustrial societies are not based on
> > superstition, primitive "magical thinking," or psychotic visions,
>
> > but on authentic experiences of alternate realities. The research
>
> of
> > holotropic states has brought ample evidence that there are
> > transphenomenal dimensions of existence that are ontologically
> real
> > and that they often can withstand the test of consensual
> validation.
> > (page 271)
> >
> > ... When we are involved in systematic self-exploration or
> spiritual
> > practice, it is important to avoid the pitfall of making a
> > particular deity opaque and seeing it as the ultimate cosmic force
>
> > rather than a window into the Absolute.
> >
> > Mistaking a specific archetypal image for the ultimate source of
> > creation or for its only true representation leads to idolatry, a
>
> > divisive and dangerous mistake widespread in the histories of
> > religions and cultures. It might unite the people who share the
> same
> > belief, but sets this group against another one that has chosen a
>
> > different representation of the divine. They might then try to
> > convert others or conquer and eliminate them. By contrast, genuine
>
> > religion is universal, all-inclusive, and all-encompassing. It has
>
> > to transcend specific culture-bound archetypal images and focus on
>
> > the ultimate source of all forms. The most important question in
> the
> > world of religion is thus the nature of the supreme principle in
> the
> > universe. (page 271)
> >
> > Experience of the Supreme Cosmic Principle
> > Individuals involved in systematic self-exploration with the use
> of
> > holotropic states repeatedly describe this process as a
> > philosophical and spiritual quest. This inspired me to search the
>
> > records from psychedelic and holotropic sessions, as well as
> reports
> > from people who were undergoing spiritual emergency, for
> experiences
> > that would convey the sense that his quest reached its goal, its
> > final destination. I found out that people who have the experience
>
> > of the Absolute that fully satisfies their spiritual longing
> > typically do not see any specific figurative images. When they
> feel
> > that they have attained the goal of their mystical and
> philosophical
> > quest, their descriptions of the supreme principle are highly
> > abstract and strikingly similar.
> >
> > Those who report such an ultimate revelation show quite remarkable
>
> > agreement in describing the experiential characteristics of this
> > state. They report that the experience of the Supreme involved
> > transcendence of all the limitations of the analytical mind, all
> > rational categories, and all the constraints of ordinary logic.
> This
> > experience was not bound by the usual limitations of three-
> > dimensional space and linear time, as we know them from everyday
> > life. It also contained all conceivable polarities in an
> inseparable
> > amalgam and thus transcended dualities of any kind.
> >
> > Time after time, people compared the Absolute to a radiant source
>
> of
> > light of unimaginable intensity, through they emphasized that it
> > also differed in some significant aspects from any form of light
> > that we know in the material world. To describe the Absolute as
> > light, as much as it seems appropriate in a certain sense,
> entirely
> > misses some of its essential characteristics, particularly in the
>
> > fact that it also is an immense and unfathomable field of
> > consciousness endowed with infinite intelligence and creative
> power.
> > Another attribute that is regularly mentioned is an exquisite
> sense
> > of humor ("cosmic humor").
> >
> > The supreme cosmic principle can be experienced in two different
> > ways. Sometimes, all personal boundaries dissolve or are
> drastically
> > obliterated and we completely merge with the divine source,
> becoming
> > one with it and indistinguishable from it. Other times, we
> maintain
> > the sense of separate identity, assuming the role of an astonished
>
> > observer who is witnessing, as if from the outside, the mysterium
>
> > tremendum of existence. Or, like some mystics, we might feel the
> > ecstasy of an enraptured lover experiencing the encounter with the
>
> > Beloved. Spiritual literature of all ages abounds in descriptions
>
> of
> > both types of experiences of the divine.
> >
> > The encounter with Absolute Consciousness or identification with
> it
> > is not the only way to experience the supreme principle in the
> > cosmos or the ultimate reality. The second type of experience that
>
> > seems to satisfy those who search for ultimate answers is
> > particularly surprising, since it has no specific content. It is
> the
> > identification with Cosmic Emptiness and Nothingness described in
>
> > the mystical literature as the Void. ...
> >
> > When we reach experiential identification with the Absolute, we
> > realize that our own being is ultimately commensurate with the
> > entire cosmic network, with all of existence. The recognition of
> our
> > own divine nature, our identity with the cosmic source, is the
> most
> > important discovery we can make during the process of deep
> > exploration. ... (pages 273-276)
> >
> > Chapter Nine. Consciousness Evolution and Human Survival:
> > Transpersonal Perspective on the Global Crisis
> >
> > Psychospiritual Roots of the Global Crisis
> > The task of imbuing humanity with an entirely different set of
> > values and goals might appear too unrealistic and utopian to offer
>
> > any real hope. Considering the paramount role of violence and
> greed
> > in human history, the possibility of transforming modern humanity
>
> > into a species of individuals capable of peaceful coexistence with
>
> > their fellow men and women regardless of race, color, and
> religious
> > or political conviction, let alone with other species, certainly
> > does not seem very plausible. We are facing the necessity to
> instill
> > humanity with profound ethical values, sensitivity to the needs of
>
> > others, acceptance of voluntary simplicity, and a sharp awareness
>
> of
> > ecological imperatives. At first glance, such a task appears too
> > fantastic even for a science-fiction movie.
> >
> > However, although serious and critical, the situation might not be
>
> > as hopeless as it appears. After more than forty years of
> intensive
> > study of holotropic states of consciousness, I have come to the
> > conclusion that the theoretical concepts and practical approaches
>
> > developed by transpersonal psychology, a discipline that is trying
>
> > to integrate spirituality with the new paradigm emerging in
> Western
> > science, could help alleviate the crisis we are all facing. These
>
> > observations suggest that radical psychospiritual transformation
> of
> > humanity is not only possible, but is already underway. The
> question
> > is only whether it can be sufficiently fast and extensive to
> reverse
> > the current self-destructive trend of modern humanity. (pages
> 296-
> > 297)
> >
> > We seem to be involved in a dramatic race for time that has no
> > precedent in the entire history of humanity. What is at stake is
> > nothing less than the future of life on this planet. If we
> continue
> > the old strategies which in their consequences are clearly
> extremely
> > self-destructive, it is unlikely that the human species will
> > survive. However, if a sufficient number of people undergo a
> process
> > of deep inner transformation, we might reach a level of
> > consciousness evolution when we deserve the proud name we have
> given
> > to species: homo sapiens. (page 324)
> >
> >
> >  http://www.csp.org/chrestomathy/psychology_of-grof.html
>
>
> KARTA!!!! It is true that you read so much! Wow, aren't you still
> exhausted?
>
> The love you are looking for is YOU. So hurry up (in stopping so
> much research and starting to search in the stillness of your-self),
>
> for the only life you have to find it is this one (wether there is
> reincarnation or not).
>
> Love-You
> ml
>
Yes, that is exactly the
right emphasis.  Regardless
of what is the underlying
relationship of consciousness
to the incarnate, no amount
of information and/or theory
suffices, so it behooves us
to treat the life we are
blessed with as the only one
there is -- or ever will be!

The eternal now moment is
all there really is and
therefore the only abode of
the truly sacred.  All else
comprises either memory or
imagination.  The Gospel of
Thomas reports Jesus as
declaring "The Kingdom Of
God is within."  The various
conceptual ruminations
(including those I tend to
agree with!) about
consciousness are ultimately
quite beside the point!

__________________________________________________
http://come.to/realization
http://www.atman.net/realization
http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm
http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm

________________________________________________________________
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--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Melody"
<melodyande@c...> wrote:
> <mlcanow@y...> wrote:
> > KARTA!!!! It is true that you read so much! Wow, aren't you
still
> > exhausted?
> >
> > The love you are looking for is YOU. So hurry up (in stopping so
> > much research and starting to search in the stillness of your-
> self),
> > for the only life you have to find it is this one (wether there
is
> > reincarnation or not).
> >
> > Love-You
> > ml
>
> Ah, Maria-Luisa, give it a rest. The intellect is as much a gift
as
> the heart. You act as though one can only exist without the other.
>
> blah blah,
> Nina
>
>
> That was kind of my response, too.
>
> I wonder if it occurs to you, ML,  that this
> sense of urgency in you about encouraging
> people to stop exercising their intellect, and to 'rest
> in their heart' instead,  may be, at core, a reaction
>
> of the mind, about the mind.
>
>
> When you're really in the "stillness of the self"
> is there really any of this sense of impatience
> for people to hurry up and do anything that
> doesn't arise naturally, spontaneously,  in
> them?
>
> Melody

Hi Melody, hi Nina,

You are entirely right. I also love to intellectualize. But in the
same way i love to intellectualize i love to do otherwise, to be
still, and in the midpoint, i like to 'point' in the same way you
two are doing right now. Of course there is no hurry, as there is no
need for anything and what really happens is this spontaneity that
arises, in Karta making research and sharing it, in me answering in
such or such way, in you making the same thing. So all is ok.

Let's give 'researching and loving Karta' a rest. That's fine with
me.

Love,
maria luisa

I like this, as i see it: ego doesn't belong to anybody.

I used to say: "We tend to say My Self, but Self doesn't belong to
anybody".

So these "we" that speak is nobody at all, with no ego, with no
Self. There is only speaking.

It seems that there's something in appearance constructed here. Is
it the ego or the I that refers to the ego as his? Or is it the Self
or the I that refers to it as his?

Ego is mine in the same way the TV in the room is mine. An object of
perception interrelated to "me". And the eternal question: who
perceives? and how can there be any interrelation without objects?

A sage says: the seer, the seen and the act of seeing are One. How
would this statement fit here?

As soon as we say: E G O, the counterpart: S E L F must appear.
(Consciousness and manifestation would be the same).
There has been much speculation about not judging good-bad, right-
wrong, beautiful-ugly, etc,etc. Not to judge supposes acceptance and
a clarity of view with its corelated understanding. Then i ask: what
about not judging ego-Self? What about not putting a name to what we
call EGO? To SELF we have put so many names, and at the end, nothing
fits appropriately, so it will become easier not to clasify Self.

There is an unavoidable sense of individuality, of entity. This
entity is not an object, it is not perceivable. This entity can only
be intuited. And this entity is in itself, the totality of ego,
Self, and the interrelation between them. So this entity we call "I"
is the One that so many non-dualists speak of. I is all there is. 'I
am That' should be, in the way of Ramana, 'I - I'. Now "i" see this,
wonderful. This is the first time "i" can put this in words!
(Yes, "i" always needing to make sense of it all, but that's the way
it is, isn't it?) In any case, these words may not be understood by
many, as always has been, and rejections of this understanding may
appear. It really doesn't matter at all. If it's ok for me, it's
alright. This me is just sharing, because in this sharing, more and
more understanding comes to the way. I have said many times that i
am the scientific, the lab, the experiment, the question and the
answer.

Much love,
maria luisa

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
<editor@j...> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 03:49:00 -0000 "mlcanow" <mlcanow@y...> writes:


> > The love you are looking for is YOU. So hurry up (in stopping so
> > much research and starting to search in the stillness of your-
self),
> >
> > for the only life you have to find it is this one (wether there
is
> > reincarnation or not).
> >
> > Love-You
> > ml
> >
> Yes, that is exactly the
> right emphasis.  Regardless
> of what is the underlying
> relationship of consciousness
> to the incarnate, no amount
> of information and/or theory
> suffices, so it behooves us
> to treat the life we are
> blessed with as the only one
> there is -- or ever will be!
>
> The eternal now moment is
> all there really is and
> therefore the only abode of
> the truly sacred.  All else
> comprises either memory or
> imagination.  The Gospel of
> Thomas reports Jesus as
> declaring "The Kingdom Of
> God is within."  The various
> conceptual ruminations
> (including those I tend to
> agree with!) about
> consciousness are ultimately
> quite beside the point!



Bruce, so good to hear from you.

Yes, yes, and yes.
There is nothing wrong at all with intellect, and what is more, it
is a wonderful tool for recovering the peace and indwelling love we
feel as lacking. But! intellect is so powerful that it recreates
itself with many relative understandings that does not help to
recover the joy of peace and love. On the contrary, it is distracted
and satisfied in this distraction.  There's a way of directing this
power of intellect appropriately for this recovering. And it is
turnind it into itself. Until there is this acceptance and
understanding, mind will weave and entertain in this, producing no
rest.
All the relative understandings about existentialism neccesarily
have to end in this acceptance, which is no other than surrender.
The ways and means are many, as so many times described even in this
site (meditation, equiry, etc, etc, etc).
To hurry up in this case only means to do it NOW. Why leave it for a
later occasion? Is there going to be another moment different than
now?
Well, whoever wants to see this, see it.

Love-love

maria luisa

> > The love you are looking for is YOU. So hurry up (in stopping so
> > much research and starting to search in the stillness of your-self),
> >
> > for the only life you have to find it is this one (wether there is
> > reincarnation or not).
> >
> > Love-You
> > ml
> >
> Yes, that is exactly the
> right emphasis.  Regardless
> of what is the underlying
> relationship of consciousness
> to the incarnate, no amount
> of information and/or theory
> suffices, so it behooves us
> to treat the life we are
> blessed with as the only one
> there is -- or ever will be!
>
> The eternal now moment is
> all there really is and
> therefore the only abode of
> the truly sacred.  All else
> comprises either memory or
> imagination.  The Gospel of
> Thomas reports Jesus as
> declaring "The Kingdom Of
> God is within."  The various
> conceptual ruminations
> (including those I tend to
> agree with!) about
> consciousness are ultimately
> quite beside the point!
>
>

hi Bruce,

yes, I am returning to the subject of reincarnation, because as I firmly
  believe, that a self-important guru-eg
o is the last pitfall on the 'Path',
so is the approach toward the spiritual
  with the hope eternal life: the fear of cassation of existence is a pitfall at
  the very beginning.

It gives the wrong frame of mind and aim

oh well, maybe I am wrong

here are some images Grof was showing
  which are shared by the collective unconscious:

if you have cable it is a good thing
to order the Wisdom channel where the Thinking Allowed program is shown

<http://community-2.webtv.net/PItyPAng/Grof/>

http://www.wisdomnetworks.com/

http://www.thinkingallowed.com/


    Karta



http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm

<You are in the universe.  Repair yourself!>


yes, I think Wilber is also saying this

     Loev, Karta

> > thank you for the answer Bobby, I like
> > the pondering, did you know, that the
> > jewish scholars are still pondering
> > on each word's meaning in their scriptures
> >  after 1000s of years
> >
> > hahaha
> >
> > I had difficulty understanding Ramana
> > when he talks about the deep sleep consciousness...
> >
> > someone please help me out with the
> > exact quote
>
> Hi Karta:
>
> > using your distinction of being
> > 'conscious' than one would say in
> > that one is not conscious, but the Consciousness is there
>
> For me it is the matter of subject-object.  Consciousness is the
> subject.  It cannot be object by its nature.  Me, as a person can be
> an object, that is, I can be acted upon.  I can be the object of an
> action.  I can also do the action and thus I can be the subject also.
>
> But Consciousness cannot be the object because it has the distinction
> of being the universal subject.  It is the I in me and the I in you.
> It is the I of the universe.  Thus it is said to be the universe.
>
> >
> > My understanding is, that an
> > individual's consciousness has an
> > unconscious component also and has
> > states: dream, waking, and deep sleep.
> >
> > If the whole is 100%, it is said, that
> >  in the waking state we use 15% of that.
> >
> > it was mentioned, that in the deep
> > sleep and dream states the whole 100%
> > is accessed.
> >
> > Now with the model of Consciousness
> > with the capital C I came up for myself
> >  while reading Nisargadatta and it is imagined by me as an
> omnipresent
> > omnipotent omniscient Awareness of
> > the whole, like God,
>
> I agree with this idea.
>
> >no way of being conscious of that maybe have cosmic
> > glimpses into it  and it is a whole
> > different story
>
> I don't agree with this.
>
> >
> > Listening to Grof, how he talked about
> >  the collective unconscious [Jung]
> > and that to change it could be and
> > should be done only by individuals,
> > many of them waking up to this responsibility.
> >
> > I am interested in that!  gaia needs
> >  to be repaired looking at the present
> >  day of affairs, violence etc
>
> You are in the universe.  Repair yourself!
>
> >
> > and my question arose, what is the
> > connection of the collective
> > unconscious Grof is talking about to
> >  the Consciousness concept ala
> > Nisargadatta
> >
> >   love, Karta
> >
>
> If the collective Unconscious  is the genetic memory it still is
> nothing more than tendencies the organism possesses.  This to me is
> the mental.
>
> What comes first, the physical universe or the mental?  One can say
> the physical evolves to the point where people are created that have
> consciousness.  But how would the physical universe know how to do
> that without the mental world as a plan?
>
> I have read that at the bottom of matter is energy and at the bottom
> of energy is mind and at the bottom of mind is spirit.
>
> And I have read that involution is the period of time it takes for
> the mental plan for a universe to come into being and an equal amount
> of time is required for the evolution of that universe  to produce an
> environment for a species to become self aware.  Thus mind creates
> the physical which creates the mind again.
>
> As long as the structure for understanding you use dictates that
> Consciousness is possessed by people as an attribute I don't believe
> you will access Nisargadatta's understanding.
>
> I don't see a correlation between the Collective Unconscious and
> Consciousness.  I think they come from different levels of the
> Spectrum of Consciousness (Ken Wilber)
>
> Love,
> Bobby G.

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 17:05:50 -0000 "satkartar7" <mi_nok@...>
writes:
>
>
>
> > > The love you are looking for is YOU. So hurry up (in stopping so
>
> > > much research and starting to search in the stillness of
> your-self),
> > >
> > > for the only life you have to find it is this one (wether there
> is
> > > reincarnation or not).
> > >
> > > Love-You
> > > ml
> > >
> > Yes, that is exactly the
> > right emphasis.  Regardless
> > of what is the underlying
> > relationship of consciousness
> > to the incarnate, no amount
> > of information and/or theory
> > suffices, so it behooves us
> > to treat the life we are
> > blessed with as the only one
> > there is -- or ever will be!
> >
> > The eternal now moment is
> > all there really is and
> > therefore the only abode of
> > the truly sacred.  All else
> > comprises either memory or
> > imagination.  The Gospel of
> > Thomas reports Jesus as
> > declaring "The Kingdom Of
> > God is within."  The various
> > conceptual ruminations
> > (including those I tend to
> > agree with!) about
> > consciousness are ultimately
> > quite beside the point!
> >
> >
>
> hi Bruce,
>
> yes, I am returning to the subject of reincarnation, because as I
> firmly
>  believe, that a self-important guru-ego
> is the last pitfall on the 'Path',
> so is the approach toward the spiritual
>  with the hope eternal life: the fear of cassation of existence is a
> pitfall at
>  the very beginning.
>
> It gives the wrong frame of mind and aim
>
> oh well, maybe I am wrong

No, you're not "wrong" at
all -- it's just that no
amount of information or
theory will talk someone
out of death fear.  Both
the guru-ego peddling
salvation and the chela-
ego craving it have too
much invested to be
affected by even the most
clear and compelling
treatise -- the circular
futility (or is that
"futile circularity?") of
their codependence has to
be seen directly, right
here and now, or that
circle will remain
unbroken and impervious!
>
> here are some images Grof was showing
>  which are shared by the collective unconscious:
>
> if you have cable it is a good thing
> to order the Wisdom channel where the Thinking Allowed
> program is shown
>
> <http://community-2.webtv.net/PItyPAng/Grof/>
>
> http://www.wisdomnetworks.com/
>
> http://www.thinkingallowed.com/
>
Thanks, Karta!

__________________________________________________
http://come.to/realization
http://www.atman.net/realization
http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm
http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm

________________________________________________________________
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--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Melody" >
>
> When you're really in the "stillness of the self"
> is there really any of this sense of impatience
> for people to hurry up and do anything that
> doesn't arise naturally, spontaneously,  in
> them?
>
> Melody>

Sometimes, what happens in relative stillness is that the still one
reacts to the one being observed according to what the one being
observed is thinking. For instance, I recall a time or two when I
told ML just to stop thinking and do it, not because she was in any
way bothing me by what she talked about but because the thought
arose with ML to say that because it was what she wanted at that
time. Karta's research is interesting and we enjoy it and she enjoys
it and there's not a thing that can be said to be wrong with that,
yet it is possible that ML feels that Karta would like a little
shift in gears right now and she's just saying what Karta is feeling
in herself. I'm also not saying that Karta is on the while less
living in that stillness than is ML or anyone else, just that
everyone likes to shift gears at times and minds really aren't
private individual units.

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Onniko"
<onniko@y...> wrote:
> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Melody" >
> >
> > When you're really in the "stillness of the self"
> > is there really any of this sense of impatience
> > for people to hurry up and do anything that
> > doesn't arise naturally, spontaneously,  in
> > them?
> >
> > Melody>
>
> Sometimes, what happens in relative stillness is that the still
one
> reacts to the one being observed according to what the one being
> observed is thinking. For instance, I recall a time or two when I
> told ML just to stop thinking and do it, not because she was in
any
> way bothing me by what she talked about but because the thought
> arose with ML to say that because it was what she wanted at that
> time. Karta's research is interesting and we enjoy it and she
enjoys
> it and there's not a thing that can be said to be wrong with that,
> yet it is possible that ML feels that Karta would like a little
> shift in gears right now and she's just saying what Karta is
feeling
> in herself. I'm also not saying that Karta is on the while less
> living in that stillness than is ML or anyone else, just that
> everyone likes to shift gears at times and minds really aren't
> private individual units.

Hi Onniko,
i agree. What generates the sense of a problem or some discomfort is
the personalizing of everything.

love,
ML

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "mlcanow"
<mlcanow@y...> wrote:
> I like this, as i see it: ego doesn't belong to anybody.
>
> I used to say: "We tend to say My Self, but Self doesn't belong to
> anybody".
>
> So these "we" that speak is nobody at all, with no ego, with no
> Self. There is only speaking.
>
> It seems that there's something in appearance constructed here. Is
> it the ego or the I that refers to the ego as his? Or is it the
Self
> or the I that refers to it as his?
>
> Ego is mine in the same way the TV in the room is mine. An object
of
> perception interrelated to "me". And the eternal question: who
> perceives? and how can there be any interrelation without objects?
>
> A sage says: the seer, the seen and the act of seeing are One. How
> would this statement fit here?
>
> As soon as we say: E G O, the counterpart: S E L F must appear.
> (Consciousness and manifestation would be the same).
> There has been much speculation about not judging good-bad, right-
> wrong, beautiful-ugly, etc,etc. Not to judge supposes acceptance
and
> a clarity of view with its corelated understanding. Then i ask:
what
> about not judging ego-Self? What about not putting a name to what
we
> call EGO? To SELF we have put so many names, and at the end,
nothing
> fits appropriately, so it will become easier not to clasify Self.
>
> There is an unavoidable sense of individuality, of entity. This
> entity is not an object, it is not perceivable. This entity can
only
> be intuited. And this entity is in itself, the totality of ego,
> Self, and the interrelation between them. So this entity we
call "I"
> is the One that so many non-dualists speak of. I is all there
is. 'I
> am That' should be, in the way of Ramana, 'I - I'. Now "i" see
this,
> wonderful. This is the first time "i" can put this in words!
> (Yes, "i" always needing to make sense of it all, but that's the
way
> it is, isn't it?) In any case, these words may not be understood
by
> many, as always has been, and rejections of this understanding may
> appear. It really doesn't matter at all. If it's ok for me, it's
> alright. This me is just sharing, because in this sharing, more
and
> more understanding comes to the way. I have said many times that i
> am the scientific, the lab, the experiment, the question and the
> answer.
>
> Much love,
> maria luisa

Yes, as so many people have pointed out, the concept of ego was
thought out by an old psychologist. This simple facet of existence
originated as nothing more than an understanding of what we are in
this particular world related to the body. It's become wrongly
villianized by our own intellect as we try to reason out why it is
we're stuck in that 15% of brainpower and all the while it's using
reason for everything that keeps us stuck. That combination of
physical survival and reasoning power is used instead of other
facets of thought and being that are better suited to certain
purposes. So it isn't that we need to get rid of either ego or
intellect, it is that we need to learn to put them in their place so
they don't get in the way of everything else.

that's the key question i think. what do we mean by real and
unreal?

when the ancients used the terms unreal and illusion, did they mean
that things didn't exist at all or were they pointing to the designed
nature of the programming that kept changing?

--------

Unreal/illusion,.........that which needs something else, apart from
it, separate from it, ........for it to appear to exist.

Aka, since it is evil which makes goodness,...good........and vice
versa,..... both "good" and "evil" are illusory concepts.
Functionally useful, no doubt.

-------

some nonduality models
depend on the necessity of the changeless background in which changes
appear.

-------

There is a lot of crap floating about in the name of non-duality

Advaita, meaning Not-Two, .......does not conclude to .........Only
One, call it uncaused Go, or the changeless background or
ParamBrahman.

Advaita, is just Advait, .not-Two.

And there is a immediate cessation of the whole structure, when an
apperception strikes, with the question, ........Not-two, is relevant

within what gestalt?

It can only be relevant within a gestalt of duality.

Advaita, has a meaning only in relation to Dvaita.

Negation has a meaning, only when there is something to be negated.
A duality has to be posited first and then it can be negated.

If duality is a conceptual conjecture, it's negation cannot be
anything else but more conceptual conjecturing.
And thus the apperception of Advaita, is the end of the very concept
of Advaita.

That ending is not a replacement of one with an other.

The organization which grows along any utterance, also grew around
the utterance of Advaita, and a changeless ParamBrahma, or
Consciousness was posited as the ultimate reality.

-----

they call this changeless background Consciousness (with the
capital C). on the other hand, dualistic models trace the origin of
the changes in linear time to the uncaused cause or God (with the
capital G).

----

Yes

The seeking entity, just cannot survive, unless it posits, a
something, a someone in charge, something on which the changes appear
etc, etc.

With this positing, it is happy because now ParamBrahma becomes the
goal.In the process of moving towards the Advaitic goal, it even
notes the halo of spiritual evolution.

-----

besides the definitions of real, what's also important is noticing
the motivation behind the belief systems (even a 'no belief'
system)...

---------

A no-belief is an oxymoron.
For it believes there is a believer who has no beliefs.

---------

is it possible to present or debunk any model of reality
without an emotional attachment or do we only builds/debunk models in
order to comfort ourselves?

---

what's the difference?
Both are hooplas.

One has the attachment of dispassion.
The other, ...passion.
Both are based on the premise that there is a substantivity, which
can be presented, ......

....OR....

..... there is something substantial which can be debunked and thus
needs to be debunked.

The former are the scores of Gurus and Enlightened Masters who
enabled gosples to come up (including one of the finest..

Nisargadatta,) .......

...the later a "UG".

Hooping the hooplas

p.s. LOL
..............

It did not go to the NDS List?
LOL

If you feel moved to, could you kindly repost on to the List, as I do
not have a copy of what got sent.

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "satkartar7"
<mi_nok@y...> wrote:
> <You are in the universe.  Repair yourself!>
>
>
> yes, I think Wilber is also saying this
>
>     Love, Karta

I really was not trying to instruct you to do that.  I was saying
that work on oneself is the same as work to repair Gaia.

It sounded like I thought you need work.  I don't.  You are great
just like you are.  In fact it is a paradox of sorts to want to
improve oneself.

For me it is wanting to know something, not get better.  If I am
wrong I want to know.  This is a good place to toss out ideas.

Love and thanks
Bobby G.

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
<Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "satkartar7"
> <mi_nok@y...> wrote:
> > thank you for the answer Bobby, I like
> >  the pondering, did you know, that the
> >  jewish scholars are still pondering
> > on each word's meaning in their scriptures
> >  after 1000s of years
> >
> > hahaha
> >
> > I had difficulty understanding Ramana
> >  when he talks about the deep sleep consciousness...
> >
> > someone please help me out with the
> > exact quote
>
> Hi Karta:
>
> > using your distinction of being
> > 'conscious' than one would say in
> > that one is not conscious, but the
> > Consciousness is there
>
> For me it is the matter of subject-object.  Consciousness is the
> subject. It cannot be object by its nature.  Me, as a person can be
> an object, that is, I can be acted upon.  I can be the object of an
> action. I can also do the action and thus I can be the subject also.
>
> But Consciousness cannot be the object because it has the distinction
> of being the universal subject. It is the I in me and the I in you.
> It is the I of the universe.  Thus it is said to be the universe.
>
> >
> > My understanding is, that an
> > individual's consciousness has an
> > unconscious component also and has
> > states: dream, waking, and deep sleep.
> >
> > If the whole is 100%, it is said, that
> > in the waking state we use 15% of that.
> >
> > it was mentioned, that in the deep
> > sleep and dream states the whole 100%
> > is accessed.
> >
> > Now with the model of Consciousness
> > with the capital C I came up for myself
> > while reading Nisargadatta and it is
> > imagined by me as an omnipresent
> > omnipotent omniscient Awareness of
> > the whole, like God,
>
> I agree with this idea.
>
> >no way of being conscious of that maybe
> > have cosmic
> > glimpses into it  and it is a whole
> > different story
>
> I don't agree with this.
>


    how so?


> >
> > Listening to Grof, how he talked about
> > the collective unconscious [Jung]
> > and that to change it could be and
> > should be done only by individuals,
> > many of them waking up to this responsibility.
> >
> > I am interested in that!  gaia needs
> > to be repaired looking at the present
> > day of affairs, violence etc
>


> You are in the universe.  Repair yourself!


yes, exactly this is the thought



> >
> > and my question arose, what is the
> > connection of the collective
> > unconscious Grof is talking about to
> > the Consciousness concept ala
> > Nisargadatta
> >
> >   love, Karta
> >
>
> If the collective Unconscious  is the genetic memory it still is
> nothing more than tendencies the organism possesses.  This to me is
> the mental.
>
> What comes first, the physical universe or the mental?  One can say
> the physical evolves to the point where people are created that have
> consciousness.  But how would the physical universe know how to do
> that without the mental world as a plan?
>
> I have read that at the bottom of matter is energy and at the bottom
> of energy is mind and at the bottom of mind is spirit.
>
> And I have read that involution is the period of time it takes for
> the mental plan for a universe to come into being and an equal amount
> of time is required for the evolution of that universe  to produce an
> environment for a species to become self aware.



I had and experience when the delusion
  of time was blown away and replaced
by a cosmic unity feeling, so I just
  leave time out of my ponderings



> Thus mind creates
> the physical which creates the mind again.




this is interesting Bobby,

I've similar understanding, that the
physical universe is 'dreamed' up,
created by us

Exactly this is the point I am searching
  around. If as Grof says the animal
human nature; the emotions, reaction to
  violence, violence is there all the
time in the matrix of the collective unconscious, which inturn influences
everyone

So far I hear: "No free will" slogans
  and believed, that life is happening
not much one can do...

But listening to Grof's model there
is hope, we just have to wake up to
the presence of this colective
unconscious and be careful what we
'put' in it




>
> As long as the structure for understanding you use dictates that
> Consciousness is possessed by people as an attribute I don't believe
> you will access Nisargadatta's understanding.
>


I am working on that; I call his kind
  of Consciousness: pristine Awareness

it can be held almost the same as
possesed


> I don't see a correlation between the Collective Unconscious and
> Consciousness.



there is somethin' there



> I think they come from different levels of the
> Spectrum of Consciousness (Ken Wilber)
>
> Love,
> Bobby G.

   love, Karta

Nisargadatta Maharaj: Awareness is primordial; it is the
original state, beginningless, endless, uncaused,
unsupported, without parts, without change. Consciousness
is on contact, a reflection against a surface, a state of
duality. There can be no consciousness without awareness,
but there can be awareness without consciousness, as in
deep sleep. Awareness is absolute, consciousness is
relative to its content; consciousness is always of
something. Consciousness is partial and changeful,
awareness is total, changeless, calm and silent. And it is
the common matrix of every experience. Since it is
awareness that makes consciousness possible, there is
awareness in every state of consciousness. Therefore, the
very consciousness of being conscious is already a movement
in awareness. Interest in your stream of consciousness
takes you to awareness. It is not a new state. It is at
once recognized as the original, basic experience, which is
life itself, and also love and joy. (29)

The mind is discontinuous. Again and again it blanks out,
like in sleep or swoon or distraction. There must be
something continuous to register discontinuity. Memory is
always partial, unreliable and evanescent. It does not
explain the strong sense of identity pervading
consciousness, the sense "I am". Find out what is at the
root of it. (307)

The person merges into the witness, the witness into
awareness, awareness into pure being, yet identity is not
lost, only its limitations are lost. It is transfigured and
becomes the real Self, the sadguru, the eternal friend and
guide. You cannot approach it in worship. No external
activity can reach the inner self; worship and prayers
remain on the surface only; to do deeper meditation is
essential, the striving to go beyond the states of sleep,
dream and waking. In the beginning the attempts are
irregular, then they recur more often, become regular, then
continuous and intense, until all obstacles are conquered.
(447)

Aziz Kristof: From the point of view
of one who is in the state of Presence, it feels like an
experience of absolute subjectivity. To prove that this is
so, some practitioners try even to bring this state to the
Sleep State. But this is unwise, for to be aware during
sleep ultimately can create serious imbalance in the
psyche. The presence of awareness during Sleep State
interferes with the natural healing process of our
subconscious. To know when to control and when to let go is
a function of intelligence. There is no need to control the
sleep state, as there is no need to control the moment of
death, when all dissolves into the Source and there is no
force in the universe that can stop it.

Enlightenment does not necessarily bring awareness to the
sleep state. Many seekers unquestioningly adopt the belief
in the necessity of becoming aware of the inner state in
the Sleep State. It is fine for the older masters who have
completed their personal growth. In the case of young
people, bringing awareness to the Sleep State is very
unhealthy. It hinders the natural process of self-healing
and the release of the subconscious mind in the dream
state. The decision as to whether awareness is present in
sleep or not belongs to the Absolute itself. For those who
have shifted to the Absolute State, there is no longer will
operating as far as "being within" is concerned. If we look
more deeply into this idea of being aware in sleep or
controlling the Dream State, what we find is fear. Many
even fear that they will not be aware in the moment of
death. It is madness.

Here, we are entering the mystery of awakening to the
Uncreated. There is a stage of realisation which the Buddha
experienced and later called reaching Nirvana. At this
stage, consciousness merges with that which is prior to
consciousness. The experience of it is like entering a deep
sleep state while remaining fully present.

Here, one is
fully present and fully absent. There is no movement in
that state, only absolute stillness exists. The absolute
stillness is the presence of the Uncreated.

And the
presence of the Uncreated is the absence of consciousness.

The meeting between these two is called the Absolute State.

The ultimate experience is of non-abidance.

Susan Segal: Walking home from that bus ride, she felt like
a "cloud of awareness" following the body. The cloud was a
witness located behind and to the left of the body and
completely separate from body, mind and emotions. The
witness was constant and so was the fear, the fear of
complete physical dissolution. The witnessing continued for
several months, even during sleep, and Segal had to endure
the fear and the accompanying stress, finding relief in
long and frequent sleeps.


from NDS

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "satkartar7"
<mi_nok@y...> wrote:
> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
<Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
> > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "satkartar7"
> > <mi_nok@y...> wrote:
> > > thank you for the answer Bobby, I like
> > >  the pondering, did you know, that the
> > >  jewish scholars are still pondering
> > > on each word's meaning in their scriptures
> > >  after 1000s of years
> > >
> > > hahaha
> > >
> > > I had difficulty understanding Ramana
> > >  when he talks about the deep sleep consciousness...
> > >
> > > someone please help me out with the
> > > exact quote
> >
> > Hi Karta:
> >
> > > using your distinction of being
> > > 'conscious' than one would say in
> > > that one is not conscious, but the
> > > Consciousness is there
> >
> > For me it is the matter of subject-object.  Consciousness is the
> > subject. It cannot be object by its nature.  Me, as a person can
be
> > an object, that is, I can be acted upon.  I can be the object of
an
> > action. I can also do the action and thus I can be the subject
also.
> >
> > But Consciousness cannot be the object because it has the
distinction
> > of being the universal subject. It is the I in me and the I in
you.
> > It is the I of the universe.  Thus it is said to be the
universe.
> >
> > >
> > > My understanding is, that an
> > > individual's consciousness has an
> > > unconscious component also and has
> > > states: dream, waking, and deep sleep.
> > >
> > > If the whole is 100%, it is said, that
> > > in the waking state we use 15% of that.
> > >
> > > it was mentioned, that in the deep
> > > sleep and dream states the whole 100%
> > > is accessed.
> > >
> > > Now with the model of Consciousness
> > > with the capital C I came up for myself
> > > while reading Nisargadatta and it is
> > > imagined by me as an omnipresent
> > > omnipotent omniscient Awareness of
> > > the whole, like God,
> >
> > I agree with this idea.
> >
> > >no way of being conscious of that maybe
> > > have cosmic
> > > glimpses into it  and it is a whole
> > > different story
> >
> > I don't agree with this.
> >
>
>
>    how so?
>
>
> > >
> > > Listening to Grof, how he talked about
> > > the collective unconscious [Jung]
> > > and that to change it could be and
> > > should be done only by individuals,
> > > many of them waking up to this responsibility.
> > >
> > > I am interested in that!  gaia needs
> > > to be repaired looking at the present
> > > day of affairs, violence etc
> >
>
>
> > You are in the universe.  Repair yourself!
>
>
> yes, exactly this is the thought
>
>
>
> > >
> > > and my question arose, what is the
> > > connection of the collective
> > > unconscious Grof is talking about to
> > > the Consciousness concept ala
> > > Nisargadatta
> > >
> > >   love, Karta
> > >
> >
> > If the collective Unconscious  is the genetic memory it still is
> > nothing more than tendencies the organism possesses.  This to me
is
> > the mental.
> >
> > What comes first, the physical universe or the mental?  One can
say
> > the physical evolves to the point where people are created that
have
> > consciousness.  But how would the physical universe know how to
do
> > that without the mental world as a plan?
> >
> > I have read that at the bottom of matter is energy and at the
bottom
> > of energy is mind and at the bottom of mind is spirit.
> >
> > And I have read that involution is the period of time it takes
for
> > the mental plan for a universe to come into being and an equal
amount
> > of time is required for the evolution of that universe  to
produce an
> > environment for a species to become self aware.
>
>
>
> I had and experience when the delusion
>  of time was blown away and replaced
> by a cosmic unity feeling, so I just
>  leave time out of my ponderings
>
>
>
> > Thus mind creates
> > the physical which creates the mind again.
>
>
>
>
> this is interesting Bobby,
>
> I've similar understanding, that the
> physical universe is 'dreamed' up,
> created by us
>
> Exactly this is the point I am searching
>  around. If as Grof says the animal
> human nature; the emotions, reaction to
>  violence, violence is there all the
> time in the matrix of the collective unconscious, which inturn
influences
> everyone
>
> So far I hear: "No free will" slogans
>  and believed, that life is happening
> not much one can do...
>
> But listening to Grof's model there
> is hope, we just have to wake up to
> the presence of this colective
> unconscious and be careful what we
> 'put' in it
>
>
>
>
> >
> > As long as the structure for understanding you use dictates that
> > Consciousness is possessed by people as an attribute I don't
believe
> > you will access Nisargadatta's understanding.
> >
>
>
> I am working on that; I call his kind
>  of Consciousness: pristine Awareness
>
> it can be held almost the same as
> possesed
>
>
> > I don't see a correlation between the Collective Unconscious and
> > Consciousness.
>
>
>
> there is somethin' there
>
>
>
> > I think they come from different levels of the
> > Spectrum of Consciousness (Ken Wilber)
> >
> > Love,
> > Bobby G.
>
>   love, Karta

Hi Karta and Bobby,

You two are having a nice dialog, much intelligent insight, more and
more views. You are intelligent, perseverant in your search for
intellectual understanding and patient. Now excuse me, after
this "nice" introduction, because i am going to say what all this
seems to me, and maybe you won't like it.

No amount of reading, intellectual understanding, insights, flashes
or glimpses even, will allow you to really understand all this
chatering unless you have the direct experience of what is called
enlightenment.

My teacher used to say that a real seeker needs to be provided of
the three P's. This is: Patience, Perseverance and Purity. I have
already said that you seem to have the first two. But you are
lacking of Purity.

Let me explain what i mean by purity. It means a mind in its pure
state, it means, in it's natural state which is that devoid of
thoughts, or maybe preferably to say, devoid of tendencies (which is
the same thing). This doesn't mean that anybody will be totally
devoid of thoughts or tendencies always (not even after
enlightenment). What this really means is that there is needed only
a fraction of an instant when there are no thoughts but total
awareness is present. This Consciousness of which you talk so much
will reveal itself in that instant, and no more speculations about
it will be neccesary, for all will be known from then on.

I know this, so that is why i see that you don't, because you
continue speculating, reading, making research. And why? Why is all
this investigation done? Presumably because you are looking for the
answers. Well, it has been said enough times that enlightenment,
that 'instant', will reveal the answers. It has been said millions
of times that intellectualizing is part of the way to it, but not
all (only a 15% here, isn't it?). And how to acquire a pure state of
mind? Silence. Stopping the internal dialog, the external dialog,
the speculations and studies. And this requires a good instant
dedicated to it. Or a prolonged instant (hours, days, the time each
mind will require for its ripeness), or just NOW.

Why don't you go directly to it? I assure you this is true.
Enlightenment in which all the existentialist doubts are cleared
exists. And afterwards, you won't be able to explain it. This is why
those who have lived it are only pointers to it, (and generally they
are not believed, of course, but what can be done in that respect?)
and the only thing you can do is to trust them, or at least one of
them (preferably).
But you will not access Nisargadatta's or any realized being's
understanding unless you get dissolved in that happening or
experience by yourselves.

Love,
ML

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fishman
<munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
> You are both wonderful and insightful!
>
> Peace and Love


Thank you Sri Jason.

Love the peace to you!
Bobby G.

>
> texasbg2000 <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "satkartar7"
> <mi_nok@y...> wrote:
> > <You are in the universe.  Repair yourself!>
> >
> >
> > yes, I think Wilber is also saying this
> >
> >     Love, Karta
>
> I really was not trying to instruct you to do that.  I was saying
> that work on oneself is the same as work to repair Gaia.
>
> It sounded like I thought you need work.  I don't.  You are great
> just like you are.  In fact it is a paradox of sorts to want to
> improve oneself.
>
> For me it is wanting to know something, not get better.  If I am
> wrong I want to know.  This is a good place to toss out ideas.
>
> Love and thanks
> Bobby G.
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
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>
>
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---
>
> Hi Karta and Bobby,
>
> You two are having a nice dialog, much intelligent insight, more
and
> more views. You are intelligent, perseverant in your search for
> intellectual understanding and patient. Now excuse me, after
> this "nice" introduction, because i am going to say what all this
> seems to me, and maybe you won't like it.
>
> No amount of reading, intellectual understanding, insights, flashes
> or glimpses even, will allow you to really understand all this
> chatering unless you have the direct experience of what is called
> enlightenment.
>
> My teacher used to say that a real seeker needs to be provided of
> the three P's. This is: Patience, Perseverance and Purity. I have
> already said that you seem to have the first two. But you are
> lacking of Purity.
>
> Let me explain what i mean by purity. It means a mind in its pure
> state, it means, in it's natural state which is that devoid of
> thoughts, or maybe preferably to say, devoid of tendencies (which
is
> the same thing). This doesn't mean that anybody will be totally
> devoid of thoughts or tendencies always (not even after
> enlightenment). What this really means is that there is needed only
> a fraction of an instant when there are no thoughts but total
> awareness is present. This Consciousness of which you talk so much
> will reveal itself in that instant, and no more speculations about
> it will be neccesary, for all will be known from then on.
>
> I know this, so that is why i see that you don't, because you
> continue speculating, reading, making research. And why? Why is all
> this investigation done? Presumably because you are looking for the
> answers. Well, it has been said enough times that enlightenment,
> that 'instant', will reveal the answers. It has been said millions
> of times that intellectualizing is part of the way to it, but not
> all (only a 15% here, isn't it?). And how to acquire a pure state
of
> mind? Silence. Stopping the internal dialog, the external dialog,
> the speculations and studies. And this requires a good instant
> dedicated to it. Or a prolonged instant (hours, days, the time each
> mind will require for its ripeness), or just NOW.
>
> Why don't you go directly to it? I assure you this is true.
> Enlightenment in which all the existentialist doubts are cleared
> exists. And afterwards, you won't be able to explain it. This is
why
> those who have lived it are only pointers to it, (and generally
they
> are not believed, of course, but what can be done in that respect?)
> and the only thing you can do is to trust them, or at least one of
> them (preferably).
> But you will not access Nisargadatta's or any realized being's
> understanding unless you get dissolved in that happening or
> experience by yourselves.
>
> Love,
> ML

Hi Maria Luisa:

I agree about knowing consciousness first hand will clear up many
misunderstandings.  Especially the one about what consciousness is
and is not.

The point about going to it directly is more difficult to speak about
for me.  My discipline has been in meditation.  Specifically
pranayama.  The intensity of effort in the years passed this way
makes me cautious about thinking it can be approached directly for
everyone.

I do see your understanding and I appreciate your loving nature in
sharing it.

Love
Bobby G.

I have reorganized the web page with the quotes by
Sri Muruganar from "The Garland of Guru's
(Sri Ramana Maharshi"s)Sayings on the subject of
turning inward.

I have placed the quotes in the following
sub categories:

#1.  Encouragement, the Goal, the Benefits.
(25 Sayings)

#2. The Awareness watching Awareness approach to
Self-Inquiry and Self-Abidance. (15 Sayings)

#3. Practice, Earnestness, Effort, Zeal: (10 Sayings)

#4. Ignoring and turning Awareness away from thought
and towards Awareness watching Awareness.  (14
Sayings)

#5. The Body (16 Sayings)

#6. Turning Inward (21 Sayings).

Grouping the sayings by theme like this should make it
easier to understand what Sri Ramana Maharshi and Sri
Muruganar were attempting to convey in these quotes.
I put the actual practice instructions in black.

You can read this newly re-organized page by clicking
this link:

http://uarelove1.tripod.com/TURNING_INWARD.htm

#7. Ignoring and turning the attention away from the
world and towards Awareness watching Awareness.
(108 Sayings)

This topic had such a large collection of quotes,
I gave it its own web page. You can read the 108
sayings on the topic of turning one's attention away
from the world by clicking this link:

http://uarelove1.tripod.com/world.htm

On that page I put the portion of the quotes that the
ego, as an ego preservation strategy,
would be most likely to block out, in black.

I put the quotes in a deliberate order this time,
to aid understanding.

This new format should be easier to understand than
just putting a couple of hundred quotes on a page
under one general category.

Sri Muruganar was a liberated sage who spent decades
in the company of Sri Ramana Maharshi.
His ability to convey experience in words
is unsurpassed.

Take care,

with Love,

in:  Awareness watching Awareness,

Michael L.










__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

Those were interesting, Karta. What is your opinion on them?

Often being aware during sleep all of my life, I've had the opinion
that people were never meant to remain unconscious or hardly
conscious during all of their sleep. Although, it is true that a
small part of sleep awareness involves the waking ego and is fear of
death related, most of sleep awareness doesn't even remember that
ego and is involved in so many different modes of consciousness. To
experience being many kinds of thought without remembering human
bodies and body realated thought bundles is, imo, a shortcut to
understanding that clear awareness that seems to form itself into so
many shapes. You can watch as your whole world springs into
existence from a single chord just before you wake up. You might
say, it's educational to your waking mind. With so many changes from
one clear source, the emotional need to eliminate the mind in order
to remember who one really is, is gone. You've already seen and
remembered that what you are in every condition is awareness that is
thinking and becomes those thoughts. The mind is not the enemy when
it doesn't put up a moat around itself. It's all good.


--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "satkartar7"
<mi_nok@y...> wrote:
>
> Nisargadatta Maharaj: Awareness is primordial; it is the
> original state, beginningless, endless, uncaused,
> unsupported, without parts, without change. Consciousness
> is on contact, a reflection against a surface, a state of
> duality. There can be no consciousness without awareness,
> but there can be awareness without consciousness, as in
> deep sleep. Awareness is absolute, consciousness is
> relative to its content; consciousness is always of
> something. Consciousness is partial and changeful,
> awareness is total, changeless, calm and silent. And it is
> the common matrix of every experience. Since it is
> awareness that makes consciousness possible, there is
> awareness in every state of consciousness. Therefore, the
> very consciousness of being conscious is already a movement
> in awareness. Interest in your stream of consciousness
> takes you to awareness. It is not a new state. It is at
> once recognized as the original, basic experience, which is
> life itself, and also love and joy. (29)
>
> The mind is discontinuous. Again and again it blanks out,
> like in sleep or swoon or distraction. There must be
> something continuous to register discontinuity. Memory is
> always partial, unreliable and evanescent. It does not
> explain the strong sense of identity pervading
> consciousness, the sense "I am". Find out what is at the
> root of it. (307)
>
> The person merges into the witness, the witness into
> awareness, awareness into pure being, yet identity is not
> lost, only its limitations are lost. It is transfigured and
> becomes the real Self, the sadguru, the eternal friend and
> guide. You cannot approach it in worship. No external
> activity can reach the inner self; worship and prayers
> remain on the surface only; to do deeper meditation is
> essential, the striving to go beyond the states of sleep,
> dream and waking. In the beginning the attempts are
> irregular, then they recur more often, become regular, then
> continuous and intense, until all obstacles are conquered.
> (447)
>
> Aziz Kristof: From the point of view
> of one who is in the state of Presence, it feels like an
> experience of absolute subjectivity. To prove that this is
> so, some practitioners try even to bring this state to the
> Sleep State. But this is unwise, for to be aware during
> sleep ultimately can create serious imbalance in the
> psyche. The presence of awareness during Sleep State
> interferes with the natural healing process of our
> subconscious. To know when to control and when to let go is
> a function of intelligence. There is no need to control the
> sleep state, as there is no need to control the moment of
> death, when all dissolves into the Source and there is no
> force in the universe that can stop it.
>
> Enlightenment does not necessarily bring awareness to the
> sleep state. Many seekers unquestioningly adopt the belief
> in the necessity of becoming aware of the inner state in
> the Sleep State. It is fine for the older masters who have
> completed their personal growth. In the case of young
> people, bringing awareness to the Sleep State is very
> unhealthy. It hinders the natural process of self-healing
> and the release of the subconscious mind in the dream
> state. The decision as to whether awareness is present in
> sleep or not belongs to the Absolute itself. For those who
> have shifted to the Absolute State, there is no longer will
> operating as far as "being within" is concerned. If we look
> more deeply into this idea of being aware in sleep or
> controlling the Dream State, what we find is fear. Many
> even fear that they will not be aware in the moment of
> death. It is madness.
>
> Here, we are entering the mystery of awakening to the
> Uncreated. There is a stage of realisation which the Buddha
> experienced and later called reaching Nirvana. At this
> stage, consciousness merges with that which is prior to
> consciousness. The experience of it is like entering a deep
> sleep state while remaining fully present.
>
> Here, one is
> fully present and fully absent. There is no movement in
> that state, only absolute stillness exists. The absolute
> stillness is the presence of the Uncreated.
>
> And the
> presence of the Uncreated is the absence of consciousness.
>
> The meeting between these two is called the Absolute State.
>
> The ultimate experience is of non-abidance.
>
> Susan Segal: Walking home from that bus ride, she felt like
> a "cloud of awareness" following the body. The cloud was a
> witness located behind and to the left of the body and
> completely separate from body, mind and emotions. The
> witness was constant and so was the fear, the fear of
> complete physical dissolution. The witnessing continued for
> several months, even during sleep, and Segal had to endure
> the fear and the accompanying stress, finding relief in
> long and frequent sleeps.
>
>
> from NDS

> > > > thank you for the answer Bobby, I like
> > > >  the pondering, did you know, that the
> > > >  jewish scholars are still pondering
> > > > on each word's meaning in their scriptures
> > > >  after 1000s of years
> > > >
> > > > hahaha
> > > >
> > > > I had difficulty understanding Ramana
> > > >  when he talks about the deep sleep consciousness...
> > > >
> > > > someone please help me out with the
> > > > exact quote
> > >
> > > Hi Karta:
> > >
> > > > using your distinction of being
> > > > 'conscious' than one would say in
> > > > that one is not conscious, but the
> > > > Consciousness is there
> > >
> > > For me it is the matter of subject-object.  Consciousness is the
> > > subject. It cannot be object by its nature.  Me, as a person can
> be
> > > an object, that is, I can be acted upon.  I can be the object of
> an
> > > action. I can also do the action and thus I can be the subject
> also.
> > >
> > > But Consciousness cannot be the object because it has the
> distinction
> > > of being the universal subject. It is the I in me and the I in
> you.
> > > It is the I of the universe.  Thus it is said to be the
> universe.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > My understanding is, that an
> > > > individual's consciousness has an
> > > > unconscious component also and has
> > > > states: dream, waking, and deep sleep.
> > > >
> > > > If the whole is 100%, it is said, that
> > > > in the waking state we use 15% of that.
> > > >
> > > > it was mentioned, that in the deep
> > > > sleep and dream states the whole 100%
> > > > is accessed.
> > > >
> > > > Now with the model of Consciousness
> > > > with the capital C I came up for myself
> > > > while reading Nisargadatta and it is
> > > > imagined by me as an omnipresent
> > > > omnipotent omniscient Awareness of
> > > > the whole, like God,
> > >
> > > I agree with this idea.
> > >
> > > >no way of being conscious of that maybe
> > > > have cosmic
> > > > glimpses into it  and it is a whole
> > > > different story
> > >
> > > I don't agree with this.
> > >
> >
> >
> >    how so?
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > Listening to Grof, how he talked about
> > > > the collective unconscious [Jung]
> > > > and that to change it could be and
> > > > should be done only by individuals,
> > > > many of them waking up to this responsibility.
> > > >
> > > > I am interested in that!  gaia needs
> > > > to be repaired looking at the present
> > > > day of affairs, violence etc
> > >
> >
> >
> > > You are in the universe.  Repair yourself!
> >
> >
> > yes, exactly this is the thought
> >
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > and my question arose, what is the
> > > > connection of the collective
> > > > unconscious Grof is talking about to
> > > > the Consciousness concept ala
> > > > Nisargadatta
> > > >
> > > >   love, Karta
> > > >
> > >
> > > If the collective Unconscious  is the genetic memory it still is
> > > nothing more than tendencies the organism possesses.  This to me
> is
> > > the mental.
> > >
> > > What comes first, the physical universe or the mental?  One can
> say
> > > the physical evolves to the point where people are created that
> have
> > > consciousness.  But how would the physical universe know how to
> do
> > > that without the mental world as a plan?
> > >
> > > I have read that at the bottom of matter is energy and at the
> bottom
> > > of energy is mind and at the bottom of mind is spirit.
> > >
> > > And I have read that involution is the period of time it takes
> for
> > > the mental plan for a universe to come into being and an equal
> amount
> > > of time is required for the evolution of that universe  to
> produce an
> > > environment for a species to become self aware.
> >
> >
> >
> > I had and experience when the delusion
> >  of time was blown away and replaced
> > by a cosmic unity feeling, so I just
> >  leave time out of my ponderings
> >
> >
> >
> > > Thus mind creates
> > > the physical which creates the mind again.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > this is interesting Bobby,
> >
> > I've similar understanding, that the
> > physical universe is 'dreamed' up,
> > created by us
> >
> > Exactly this is the point I am searching
> >  around. If as Grof says the animal
> > human nature; the emotions, reaction to
> >  violence, violence is there all the
> > time in the matrix of the collective unconscious, which inturn
> influences
> > everyone
> >
> > So far I hear: "No free will" slogans
> >  and believed, that life is happening
> > not much one can do...
> >
> > But listening to Grof's model there
> > is hope, we just have to wake up to
> > the presence of this colective
> > unconscious and be careful what we
> > 'put' in it
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > As long as the structure for understanding you use dictates that
> > > Consciousness is possessed by people as an attribute I don't
> believe
> > > you will access Nisargadatta's understanding.
> > >
> >
> >
> > I am working on that; I call his kind
> >  of Consciousness: pristine Awareness
> >
> > it can be held almost the same as
> > possesed
> >
> >
> > > I don't see a correlation between the Collective Unconscious and
> > > Consciousness.
> >
> >
> >
> > there is somethin' there
> >
> >
> >
> > > I think they come from different levels of the
> > > Spectrum of Consciousness (Ken Wilber)
> > >
> > > Love,
> > > Bobby G.
> >
> >   love, Karta
>
> Hi Karta and Bobby,
>
> You two are having a nice dialog, much intelligent insight, more and
> more views. You are intelligent, perseverant in your search for
> intellectual understanding and patient. Now excuse me, after
> this "nice" introduction, because i am going to say what all this
> seems to me, and maybe you won't like it.
>
> No amount of reading, intellectual understanding, insights, flashes
> or glimpses even, will allow you to really understand all this
> chatering unless you have the direct experience of what is called
> enlightenment.
>
> My teacher used to say that a real seeker needs to be provided of
> the three P's. This is: Patience, Perseverance and Purity. I have
> already said that you seem to have the first two. But you are
> lacking of Purity.
>
> Let me explain what i mean by purity. It means a mind in its pure
> state, it means, in it's natural state which is that devoid of
> thoughts, or maybe preferably to say, devoid of tendencies (which is
> the same thing). This doesn't mean that anybody will be totally
> devoid of thoughts or tendencies always (not even after
> enlightenment). What this really means is that there is needed only
> a fraction of an instant when there are no thoughts but total
> awareness is present. This Consciousness of which you talk so much
> will reveal itself in that instant, and no more speculations about
> it will be neccesary, for all will be known from then on.
>
> I know this, so that is why i see that you don't, because you
> continue speculating, reading, making research. And why? Why is all
> this investigation done? Presumably because you are looking for the
> answers. Well, it has been said enough times that enlightenment,
> that 'instant', will reveal the answers. It has been said millions
> of times that intellectualizing is part of the way to it, but not
> all (only a 15% here, isn't it?). And how to acquire a pure state of
> mind? Silence. Stopping the internal dialog, the external dialog,
> the speculations and studies. And this requires a good instant
> dedicated to it. Or a prolonged instant (hours, days, the time each
> mind will require for its ripeness), or just NOW.
>
> Why don't you go directly to it? I assure you this is true.
> Enlightenment in which all the existentialist doubts are cleared
> exists. And afterwards, you won't be able to explain it. This is why
> those who have lived it are only pointers to it, (and generally they
> are not believed, of course, but what can be done in that respect?)
> and the only thing you can do is to trust them, or at least one of
> them (preferably).
> But you will not access Nisargadatta's or any realized being's
> understanding unless you get dissolved in that happening or
> experience by yourselves.
>


with all do respect, Maria Luisa

you sound like Ganga: assuming that,
  we did not have the experinece of
light, but *YOU* did.

same answer as to her: go fligh a khyte

  <grin>

   love, Karta

> Love,
> ML