Hi!
Insomnia is indeed a sign of depression, but not alone. On the other
hand, with a better quality sleep (that can come from meditation, at
least according to some literature and also my experience) the time
needed to rest can diminish. Meaning it might happen that you need
less sleep. The question is how do you feel when you wake up: fresh
or tired? If you feel fresh and energized, it's OK and it's no
depression. babs.
--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@y..., "Gustavo Daud Amadera"
<deusminhoca@y...> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I'm searching the web for info on sleep needs for meditation
practitioners - I started meditating seriously after a major
depression crisis (about 1 year ago).
>
> Recently I started waking up 1 hour (+-) earlier than I usually
did. My doctor really thinks I'm depressed again  (based on that...).
>
> Thanks for any light on the subject!
>
> Gustavo Daud Amadera (Brazil)
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@y..., "Gustavo Daud Amadera"
<deusminhoca@y...> wrote:
> I'm searching the web for info on sleep needs for meditation
practitioners - I started meditating seriously after a major
depression crisis (about 1 year ago).
>
> Recently I started waking up 1 hour (+-) earlier than I usually
did. My doctor really thinks I'm depressed again  (based on that...).
>
> Thanks for any light on the subject!
>
> Gustavo Daud Amadera (Brazil)

Hi Gustavo,
   You state above... Thanks for any light on the subject!  My thought
here when you mention depression, is maybe you lack sunlight; light
starvation in other words.  Not sure what season you are in in Brazil
( maybe rainy?)  But I have heard sometimes the lack of sunlight can
be a cause for depression.  Not just the idea of waking up earlier,
but also sleeping too much can be a sign of depression.  Do you nap
during the day?  When do you practise meditation?  And do you sleep
after a time when doing this?   If so I would recommend setting a
timer, and only do your meditation for 20 to 30 minutes.  Or maybe
try doing your meditations in a different area, say outside in
nature... see if going outside into the sun light, maybe in a park,
etc...  will give you an experience of change, and open you up for
getting in touch with other energy that is in nature.   Also keep a
journal of your experience.  Maybe you will be able to then figure
out through your journaling, just what could be causing your
depression.  Maybe you also could take a look at how your job makes
you feel, or other personal issues in your life.   Draw two columns
on  a piece of paper, one side for things that really are enjoyable
for you, and one side for a list of things that make you feel
drained, or out of sorts.   Once you discover the items that make you
feel drained (or sleepy, sleepless) than you can try to find
something to replace these things in your life, with
activities/objects that make you feel relaxed, quiet and full of
energy.  Have you seen the movie "Pay it Forward"?  If not it is a
story about a young school boy that has an assignment to try to
change the world.  He desides to help three people that can not help
themselves.   Maybe you could try to help someone by doing something
special for someone else, each week, day ?  What ever you feel
comfortable with.  These are just a few thoughts that came to me.
Hope it helps some  :-)
Elizabeth

Dear Gustavo,
As a mental health professional, I have to suggest you follow your
doctors directions, although I am doubtful that he is basing his
"Depression" diagnosis just on your waking up earlier. As we progress
in our meditative practice, it is common to start becoming aware of
how we are squandering energy needlessly. For instance, we may
realize that we cringe and tighten up all our muscles whenever our
mother-in-law or our boss enters the room. When we recognize this
reaction, we no longer may do it habitually, and thus start to
conserve the energy that we would have normally wasted in getting
uptight. This ultimately leads to having more energy overall, and
lessens the amount of time we need to sleep to replenish it.
Similarly, we may even start reacting with laughter whenever we see
ourselves doing dumb, energy wasting, habitual reactive motions, like
twiddeling our thumbs, scratching body parts that aren't itching,
playing with our hair, and so on. We then not only start to save the
squandered energy by not doing these unconscious energy-wasting
things, we gain energy by our laughter. Also, as we evolve in
meditation, at night, it becomes easier and easier to let go of
things we would tend to go over and over, thus allowing our sleep to
be of a better, more refreshing quality. I wish you well, and hope
your sleep is pleasant, beneficial, and helps end any depression you
are going through.
Peace and blessings,
Bob
--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@y..., "Gustavo Daud Amadera"
<deusminhoca@y...> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I'm searching the web for info on sleep needs for meditation
practitioners - I started meditating seriously after a major
depression crisis (about 1 year ago).
>
> Recently I started waking up 1 hour (+-) earlier than I usually
did.
My doctor really thinks I'm depressed again  (based on that...).
>
> Thanks for any light on the subject!
>
> Gustavo Daud Amadera (Brazil)
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am still trying to get into meditation and I'm curious about using
crystals.  Does anyone here hold crystals while meditating?  If so,
what kind of crystals? Do they work?

I am still trying to get into meditation and I'm curious about using
   crystals.  Does anyone here hold crystals while meditating?  If so,
   what kind of crystals? Do they work?

   *****Below is a web site that was posted through another group I belong to, I
have no idea how any of this would work with meditation.... but thought you may
want to check this out.


   http://www.ruidomain.com/amulet/crystal_info.htm

   Elizabeth  :-)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sorry... hit send too soon.  Here is another  web site  :-)

http://www.gems4friends.com/~lorraine/therapy.html

Elizabeth


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Question from Email:
Hello, I am currently starting to research meditation.  One of the
things I have been trying to do is conceive a child.  With no luck
for the past 16 months I don't know what else to do.  We have been
seeing a doctor but that can only go so far.  Is there any type of
meditation I could do that might help?  Please advise.  Thank you so
much,

1st Answer:
Virtually every religion has prayers and rituals for fertility. I
encourage you to consider trying the methods of your own religion. In
the meditation tradition, visualization is probably the most common
method. What you would do is to see yourself as having a baby growing
in you, being born, and other scenes of your life as a mother. If you
have a deity, you could see your deity blessing you and giving the
baby to you.

Answer from a student:
Hi!  I am the student from your meditation class at Haverford Middle
School on Monday nite that asked you about the girl having fertility
problems... I have some resources that maybe will help her out, or at
least lead her to someone who can send her in the direction she may
want to go...Some of these resources mention aspects of meditation
like affirmations and visualization but are not specific meditation
books
BOOKS
1. The Whole Person Fertility Program by Niravi Payne and Brenda
Richardson
2. I Got Pregnant, You Can Too (How Healing Yourself Physically,
Mentally, and Spiritually Leads to Fertility) by Katie Boland  (A
good
"pick me up"/mood lifter book!)
3. Women's Bodies, Women's Wisdom: Creating Physical and Emotional
Health & Healing by Christiane Northrup.
4. Healing Mind, Healthy Woman, Using Mind-Body Connection... by
Alice Domar & Henry Dreher

WEBSITES
1. www.resolve.org
2. www.inciid.org  (this site has a HUGE reading list under the
"INCIID Book Nook" section, that might contain some information she
may be looking for)
I am not sure if this will help as the information may be redundant
to her, but it is worth a try...
Please feel free to pass on my e-mail address to her, and tell her if
she wants someone to talk with, who is going through a similar
experience (22 months of trying for baby), to send me an e-mail...

Thanks!  See you next class

One of my favorite sources...www.gemisphere.com
Also the Book..- original release - " Gifts of the Gemstone Guardians " by
Michael Katz.
Re-released as Gemisphere in about 2000 or so.
Geoff.


May you live richly, love deeply and create a world in your image.
May that world give back to you its delicate and profound treasures.
-Ariel Tomioka ( " On the Breath of the Gods.")


---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for your excellent advice. This has been a big help to me, especially
the Hu chant.

I think I should have mentioned that I practiced an inner sounds meditation
technique where I used ear plugs and listened to my inner sounds. I think
this approach contributed to my "sound current" experience.

I suspended my meditation because I felt I was subtly expecting too much
from the practice and this was influencing my sessions. My sense is that
meditation helps a natural process unfold. However, if you push too hard,
expecting enlightenment or higher levels of consciousness, this disturbs the
process and you can get stuck in some corner.

I found myself experimenting a lot. While I had some success and gained some
insights I felt overall, I was doing more harm than good. An example of one
of my techniques is to focus on the most subtle sound out of all the sounds
I can hear. This produced an effect similar to going through a door into
another room. In this room of subtler sounds I would repeat the process and
go deeper still. I found this to be an excellent way to go deeper and deeper
into my meditation. But is this where one should go? Are you not moving too
fast? My sense is that by relaxing and letting your inner self take control,
it will lead you in the right direction at the right pace.

I had the feeling that aiming for the sensations of bliss, while pleasant,
could be limiting. I could not be sure if the feelings would take me further
or if they were a diversion - like a pretty scene on a journey. By
suspending my meditation, I can start on a fresh slate and be more open to
different directions. One point though is that I felt the feelings of bliss
were healthy, that is they contributed to my improved physical and mental
health and helped me cope with the stress of day to day living. My personal
explanation of the sounds and the feelings of bliss is that I opened up one
of my glands that produces endorphins. I appear to have made more conscious
a normally subconscious process.

Thank you again for your insights. I welcome additional comments.

...Tony

Dear Tony,
Thanks! You have shared so many brilliant in-sight-full things. You
did everything just the way you were supposed to and have come to the
exactly correct conclusions, and have the perfect questions remaining
that you should have. This has been your path and like everyone's
path, it has ups, downs, and turn-arounds. At times, for instance,
you found your experiments with inner sounds "to be an excellent way
to go deeper and deeper into my meditation." This is usually
considered a very good thing, but it led to your questioning "But is
this where one should go? … My sense is that by relaxing and
letting your inner self take control, it will lead you in the right
direction at the right pace." And this is definitely a very wise
insight. The same with your observation that "I had the feeling that
aiming for the sensations of bliss, while pleasant, could be
limiting."  I could go on and on, but I think I will just summarize
by saying that you are certainly in the right direction and that is
infinite in all directions. Your journey has been your individual
experience, but is one that all meditators can relate to. Thanks
again for sharing!

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@y..., tosime@s... wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
  > Thanks for your excellent advice. This has been a big help to me,
especially the Hu chant. I think I should have mentioned that I
practiced an inner sounds meditation technique where I used ear plugs
and listened to my inner sounds. I think this approach contributed to
my "sound current" experience. I suspended my meditation because I
felt I was subtly expecting too much from the practice and this was
influencing my sessions. My sense is that meditation helps a natural
process unfold. However, if you push too hard, expecting
enlightenment or higher levels of consciousness, this disturbs the
process and you can get stuck in some corner.
  I found myself experimenting a lot. While I had some success and
gained some insights I felt overall, I was doing more harm than good.
An example of one of my techniques is to focus on the most subtle
sound out of all the sounds I can hear. This produced an effect
similar to going through a door into another room. In this room of
subtler sounds I would repeat the process and go deeper still. I
found this to be an excellent way to go deeper and deeper into my
meditation. But is this where one should go? Are you not moving too
fast? My sense is that by relaxing and letting your inner self take
control, it will lead you in the right direction at the right pace. I
had the feeling that aiming for the sensations of bliss, while
pleasant, could be limiting. I could not be sure if the feelings
would take me further or if they were a diversion - like a pretty
scene on a journey. By suspending my meditation, I can start on a
fresh slate and be more open to different directions. One point
though is that I felt the feelings of bliss were healthy, that is they
contributed to my improved physical and mental health and helped me
cope with the stress of day to day living. My personal explanation of
the sounds and the feelings of bliss is that I opened up one of my
glands that produces endorphins. I appear to have made more conscious
a normally subconscious process.
   Thank you again for your insights. I welcome additional comments.
  ...Tony

Question from Email:
I have used meditation (3rd Eye) for a long time....I am now VERY
intersted in this meditation. I can do only outdoors and when sunny.
With eyes closed, I aim my third eye at the sun, and my physical eyes
seem to relax and slightly cross. When the thoughts subside due to
concentrating on feeling the breath rather than thinking mentally,
inside the forehead starts to turn Indigo or Violet. It's round LARGE
and has a light yellowish green border. This is as far as it
goes.....I can hold it by not doing, but at 30 minutes or so I
stop....Always a profound inner peace afterward...But am I limited to
the weather and seasons to do this...??????????
Is there a next step I need to recognize....or prep for...???
Any answers would be greatly appreciated, not too many people
understand these things.

Answer:
I want to suggest three things. The first is to try doing this in
complete darkness. The Inner Light is Self effulgent, not dependant
on anything physical, such as the sun, or even having eyeballs. The
second is to continue doing exactly what you have been doing,
but at the time that your "physical eyes seem to relax and slightly
cross", look up at the point between where your eyebrows
would meet.  If this is distracting after trying it a few times, and
doesn't start happening on its own accord, just do what does
come naturally. You are very close. Close to what? Well, for the
third suggestion, here goes the attempt to describe the
indescribable....There is a veil of ignorance that must be pierced to
see the Truth. The moment of this is often preceeded by
seeing the preatomic energy that is the essence of this universe. It
often appears as dots of ultra-violet and infra-red points of
light forming a paisley patterened energy interplay. A sparkling
dance of the lowest common denominator of life and light. It
then opens and the Pure Silent Void presents itself, and all of
creation and the source of creation is witnessed, and you will
Realize, and remember, your infinite, eternal unity. And live happily
ever after.

Question from Email:
Hello. I received my CD last week, which I thank you for. My favorite
track is #3 which I have been using most days to meditate with. I had
always understood that you should meditate in silence either with a
mantra or by using an object fixed in your mind. This method, after a
period of time would take you into a  deeper state within your mind.
I would be interested in hearing your comments. Kind Regards.
Answer:
There is no question that using "a mantra or by using an object fixed
in your mind" is the most common, and an excellent  way to go about
concentrating. The CD is not meant to replace any technique, but
rather to add to your experience. For instance, many of the
techniques on the CD are intended to be effective for specific
things, like dealing with ceasing to carry around unnecessary guilt
or anger (like track #3), changing negative characteristics into
positiveones, relaxing your body, and so on. The Meditation Society of
America is dedicated to sharing all the techniques possible, so as to
be able to help people in as many ways as possible. I hope you
continue to enjoy and benefit from the CD.

Question from Email:
Hi, I still read about meditation and try to meditate.
I need to know, when I sit and try to meditate, and my
mind keeps going on everything, is that concentrating
or meditation? Can I meditate on one thing at a
time? Give thanks for your advise, looking foward to
hear from you, peace.

Hello and peace. Thank you for this group, for it is very encouraging
to hear what others are going through as well. I've been meditating
for only a couple of weeks and I really feel like I'm starting to
gain control over my life again. I was really in a bad place a while
back, but things have really been turning around lately. My ego is
still putting up a fight, but I know that perserverance will pay off.
I meditate twice a day for 20 min. each session, usually first
focusing on my breath and then chanting OM MANI PEME HUNG. During my
normal day, I've had some very peaceful moments, where my mind is
completely quiet. As my meditation practice increases, will I have
more of these moments? Is this my true nature and will I eventually
be able to maintain this forever? Also, I find that I can, almost at
any moment, just make myself happy, by smiling in my heart and on my
face. If I keep doing this consciously, will I eventually be like
this without effort (which is what we all want, I think)? Finally,
I've really been thinking about fasting (for the first time) to detox
my body and aid my meditation practice. I'm also really considering
becoming a vegetarian. I only eat fish or chicken like once a week
now, but I think I eventually want to become a vegetarian. Does
anyone have any comments on fasting, vegetarianism and the above
questions about effortless happiness? Thank you all again and peace.
  Matthew

Dear Matthew,
You are off to a good start, and are using one of the most powerful
possible mantras in OM MANI PADME HUNG (Here's a good site to learn
more about this mantra):
http://www.dharma-haven.org/tibetan/meaning-of-om-mani-padme-hung.htm
There are many more elevating and spiritually evolutionary things
ahead for you. For instance, you can start becoming more and more
aware of your life as it takes place. Your Inner Witness will do
this, and every moment spent this way, disarms the suffering your
inner Chatterer brings to you. Witness your breath, and you are
positioned to be aware of your habitual reactivity. You will
automatically start to shed those things that squander energy and
take
your peace away. Remove those things in your life that prevent your
inner smile from arising. Do those things that stimulate it. Fasting
is a great way to cleanse, but fasting mentally and emotionally from
negativity is more purifying than fasting from food. As a vegetarian
for 38 years, I can't be objective about this at all, but I feel that
when it is the right time for you to do this, it will happen on its
own. You will have to become proficient in concentration and this
usually takes an effort. Then meditation simply comes to you
effortlessly. We have all the "answers" within us, and when we are
empty we will fill with all we need for everlasting peace, knowledge,
awareness, and bliss. Meditation is the best pointer to the things
that have been preventing our ever-present inner love and beauty from
filling us. By itself it can't do anything. Grace brings things to us
(that's what "Thy will be done" is all about). But we can start to
cleanse and prepare ourselves. After all, a pharmacist will not fill
a
bottle with healing medicine unless the bottle is completely free of
contamination. Can anything less be expected of the Highest? Be
regular in your practice, persevere. It's hard at times to let things
happen easily. Swami Sivananda wrote over 350 books, and he summed up
his whole teaching with this final (for now) suggestion…. "Be
good. Do
good." I hope this helps.

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@y..., sinimat78 <no_reply@y...>
wrote:
  Hello and peace. Thank you for this group, for it is very
encouraging
  to hear what others are going through as well. I've been meditating
  for only a couple of weeks and I really feel like I'm starting to
  gain control over my life again. I was really in a bad place a
while  back, but things have really been turning around lately. My
ego
is still putting up a fight, but I know that perserverance will pay
off. I meditate twice a day for 20 min. each session, usually first
focusing on my breath and then chanting OM MANI PEME HUNG. During
my  normal day, I've had some very peaceful moments, where my mind is
  completely quiet. As my meditation practice increases, will I have
  more of these moments? Is this my true nature and will I eventually
be able to maintain this forever? Also, I find that I can, almost at
any moment, just make myself happy, by smiling in my heart and on my
face. If I keep doing this consciously, will I eventually be like
  this without effort (which is what we all want, I think)? Finally,
  I've really been thinking about fasting (for the first time) to
detox  my body and aid my meditation practice. I'm also really
considering becoming a vegetarian. I only eat fish or chicken like
once a week  now, but I think I eventually want to become a
vegetarian. Does anyone have any comments on fasting, vegetarianism
and the above questions about effortless happiness? Thank you all
again and peace.
  Matthew

(This topic - sleep needs - is of great interest for me, so I really needed
to ask again :-) Also, thanks to Elizabeth, babs and Bob for their support!)

How many hours of sleep do you have each night? And before starting
meditation? Do you think there could be a correlation between meditation and
sleep - say, you usually sleep 8 hours, but one day you spend 2 hours on
deep meditation; would these 2 hours count as x (?) hours of sleep?

Anyone noticed decreased amount of sleep needed when fasting? (After how
many days did you notice it?)

When studying Budhism with a Chen Tao monk, I was instructed to limit my
sleeping time to 4h30 - which I just couldn't do, though I REALLY tried -
after 2 or 3 days I just wouldn't get up! (I know each person has an amount
of time needed, ..., BUT I would still love to hear YOUR numbers...)


Peace!
Namaste!
Oss!
Gustavo Daud Amadera (Brazil - sorry for the "poor English")


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Namaste,

For me, there is a big correlation between meditation and sleep.  My
problem is that I don't sleep as well as I should and the purpose of
meditation is to purge my mind of all worries and problems so I can
relax better at night.  I am new to this but it does seem to work as
I feel wonderful afterwards.  Generally, I trance about 20-40
minutes.  I'm actually able to get an extra hour or two more of
sleep because it.



--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@y..., "Gustavo Daud Amadera"
<deusminhoca@y...> wrote:
> (This topic - sleep needs - is of great interest for me, so I
really needed
> to ask again :-) Also, thanks to Elizabeth, babs and Bob for their
support!)
>
> How many hours of sleep do you have each night? And before starting
> meditation? Do you think there could be a correlation between
meditation and
> sleep - say, you usually sleep 8 hours, but one day you spend 2
hours on
> deep meditation; would these 2 hours count as x (?) hours of sleep?
>
> Anyone noticed decreased amount of sleep needed when fasting?
(After how
> many days did you notice it?)
>
> When studying Budhism with a Chen Tao monk, I was instructed to
limit my
> sleeping time to 4h30 - which I just couldn't do, though I REALLY
tried -
> after 2 or 3 days I just wouldn't get up! (I know each person has
an amount
> of time needed, ..., BUT I would still love to hear YOUR
numbers...)
>
>
> Peace!
> Namaste!
> Oss!
> Gustavo Daud Amadera (Brazil - sorry for the "poor English")
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Hi Gustavo!
Your English is great, you don't need to appologize for it.
I'm a begginer on this path, but in the about two month since I
started meditation, my sleep needs diminished a lot. Before I needed
7,5-8 hours of sleep and now 6-6,5 hours do the job. But there's a
possible confounding factor: I used to be a smoker and I quit about 6
weeks ago. This could also influence my sleep needs.
Good luck, Babs.

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@y..., "Gustavo Daud Amadera"
<deusminhoca@y...> wrote:
> (This topic - sleep needs - is of great interest for me, so I
really needed
> to ask again :-) Also, thanks to Elizabeth, babs and Bob for their
support!)
>
> How many hours of sleep do you have each night? And before starting
> meditation? Do you think there could be a correlation between
meditation and
> sleep - say, you usually sleep 8 hours, but one day you spend 2
hours on
> deep meditation; would these 2 hours count as x (?) hours of sleep?
>
> Anyone noticed decreased amount of sleep needed when fasting?
(After how
> many days did you notice it?)
>
> When studying Budhism with a Chen Tao monk, I was instructed to
limit my
> sleeping time to 4h30 - which I just couldn't do, though I REALLY
tried -
> after 2 or 3 days I just wouldn't get up! (I know each person has
an amount
> of time needed, ..., BUT I would still love to hear YOUR numbers...)
>
>
> Peace!
> Namaste!
> Oss!
> Gustavo Daud Amadera (Brazil - sorry for the "poor English")
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

I have been having problems with my email so I am not sure if this message
reached the group or if there was a reply.

My apologies if this is a repost.

...Tony

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Osime" <tosime@...>
To: <meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 11:19 PM
Subject: Meditation Expereince


> Hi Everyone,
>
> Thanks for your excellent advice. This has been a big help to me,
especially
> the Hu chant.
>
> I think I should have mentioned that I practiced an inner sounds
meditation
> technique where I used ear plugs and listened to my inner sounds. I think
> this approach contributed to my "sound current" experience.
>
> I suspended my meditation because I felt I was subtly expecting too much
> from the practice and this was influencing my sessions. My sense is that
> meditation helps a natural process unfold. However, if you push too hard,
> expecting enlightenment or higher levels of consciousness, this disturbs
the
> process and you can get stuck in some corner.
>
> I found myself experimenting a lot. While I had some success and gained
some
> insights I felt overall, I was doing more harm than good. An example of
one
> of my techniques is to focus on the most subtle sound out of all the
sounds
> I can hear. This produced an effect similar to going through a door into
> another room. In this room of subtler sounds I would repeat the process
and
> go deeper still. I found this to be an excellent way to go deeper and
deeper
> into my meditation. But is this where one should go? Are you not moving
too
> fast? My sense is that by relaxing and letting your inner self take
control,
> it will lead you in the right direction at the right pace.
>
> I had the feeling that aiming for the sensations of bliss, while pleasant,
> could be limiting. I could not be sure if the feelings would take me
further
> or if they were a diversion - like a pretty scene on a journey. By
> suspending my meditation, I can start on a fresh slate and be more open to
> different directions. One point though is that I felt the feelings of
bliss
> were healthy, that is they contributed to my improved physical and mental
> health and helped me cope with the stress of day to day living. My
personal
> explanation of the sounds and the feelings of bliss is that I opened up
one
> of my glands that produces endorphins. I appear to have made more
conscious
> a normally subconscious process.
>
> Thank you again for your insights. I welcome additional comments.
>
> ...Tony
>

Constant concentration causes cessation of contempt, crassness,
crabbiness, crankiness, and confusion, creating conditions of calm,
cheerfulness, compassion, confidence, competency, creativity, and
consummate clarity conducive to continual contemplation of cosmic
consciousness.

There have been some comments recently on other newsgroups dealing
with the appropriateness of posting things that deceased teachers
have said. How do you feel about this? Personally, I think if it
pertains to helping understand the answer to a question, it is
definitly OK, but to just post it to share is another story that
requires a righteous motivation. For instance, one way to validate
the postings is if they have helped you "wake up". But it seems that
very often it is just so the poster gets to see their name associated
with the famous dead guy(tm), or to somehow convey "Look how well
read I am, so respect me for having such a wide amount of knowledge",
or something like that. We have the opportunity here to have original
input from living famous (and not so famous)ladies and guys, so why
resort to restating so called "wisdom" from others? What do you
think? Or, maybe more importantly, what's your gut feeling? This
question was partly stimulated by an Email I received from a student
who had been going through her notes from class and really felt she
"heard" something loud and clear that had earlier not really
registered when she first heard it. Here's the quote she responded to:

Bhagavan Ramana:
  "Seek the Self through meditation.
In this manner, trace every thought back to its
origin, which is only the mind. Never allow thought
to run on. If you do, it will be unending. Take it
back to its starting place, the mind, again and
again, and it and the mind will both die of
inaction. The mind exists only by reason of
thought. Stop that and there is no mind. As each
doubt and depression arises, ask yourself, "Who is
it that doubts? What is it that is depressed?" Go
back constantly to the question, "Who is the 'I'?
Where is it?" Tear everything away until there is
nothing but the Source of all left. And then - live
always in the present and only in it. There is no
past or future, save in the mind."

Obviously, wisdom from the wise, and since it fits the criteria
stated above about helping "wake up" someone, I'm posting it, as she
requested. Well, unless this has helped you stop thinking, please
share what do you think.

Dear Tony,
One reply was in message # 277. Here's the URL
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meditationsocietyofamerica/message/277
And thanks for posting and reposting it. Very good stuff!!!

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@y..., tosime@s... wrote:
> I have been having problems with my email so I am not sure if this
message
> reached the group or if there was a reply.
>
> My apologies if this is a repost.
>
> ...Tony
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tony Osime" <tosime@s...>
> To: <meditationsocietyofamerica@y...>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 11:19 PM
> Subject: Meditation Expereince
>
>
> > Hi Everyone,
> >
> > Thanks for your excellent advice. This has been a big help to me,
> especially
> > the Hu chant.
> >
> > I think I should have mentioned that I practiced an inner sounds
> meditation
> > technique where I used ear plugs and listened to my inner sounds.
I think
> > this approach contributed to my "sound current" experience.
> >
> > I suspended my meditation because I felt I was subtly expecting
too much
> > from the practice and this was influencing my sessions. My sense
is that
> > meditation helps a natural process unfold. However, if you push
too hard,
> > expecting enlightenment or higher levels of consciousness, this
disturbs
> the
> > process and you can get stuck in some corner.
> >
> > I found myself experimenting a lot. While I had some success and
gained
> some
> > insights I felt overall, I was doing more harm than good. An
example of
> one
> > of my techniques is to focus on the most subtle sound out of all
the
> sounds
> > I can hear. This produced an effect similar to going through a
door into
> > another room. In this room of subtler sounds I would repeat the
process
> and
> > go deeper still. I found this to be an excellent way to go deeper
and
> deeper
> > into my meditation. But is this where one should go? Are you not
moving
> too
> > fast? My sense is that by relaxing and letting your inner self
take
> control,
> > it will lead you in the right direction at the right pace.
> >
> > I had the feeling that aiming for the sensations of bliss, while
pleasant,
> > could be limiting. I could not be sure if the feelings would take
me
> further
> > or if they were a diversion - like a pretty scene on a journey. By
> > suspending my meditation, I can start on a fresh slate and be more
open to
> > different directions. One point though is that I felt the feelings
of
> bliss
> > were healthy, that is they contributed to my improved physical and
mental
> > health and helped me cope with the stress of day to day living. My
> personal
> > explanation of the sounds and the feelings of bliss is that I
opened up
> one
> > of my glands that produces endorphins. I appear to have made more
> conscious
> > a normally subconscious process.
> >
> > Thank you again for your insights. I welcome additional comments.
> >
> > ...Tony
> >

Question from Email: What are the greatest drawbacks from progressing
spiritually and in meditation. Also, what is the best way to conduct
oneself to avoid "bad karma"?

Answer: Selfishness and selflessness are the answers to these
queries. Selfish activity always leads to suffering, as you
inevitably will go through guilt, regret, self doubt, etc., and these
will distract you from being able to concentrate. Similarly, all
selfless actions result in "good karma". Not to push Buddhism, or any
religion, or system of belief, I do want to point out that one of the
4 noble truths that Buddha expounded was "Desire is the cause of all
suffering". And another was that "To end desire will end suffering".
They have proven to be correct advise/wisdom for the past 2500 years.
So, when your intention is righteous, as is always the case with
selfless actions, you avoid all the negative mental and emotional
things you go through that selfish behavior brings. This allows you
to concentrate with less distraction, and develop spiritually. There
are no better things to learn and do than to act with humility and
compassion. Selfless action achieves this automatically.

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@y..., medit8ionsociety
<no_reply@y...> wrote:
> There have been some comments recently on other newsgroups dealing
> with the appropriateness of posting things that deceased teachers
> have said. How do you feel about this? Personally, I think if it
> pertains to helping understand the answer to a question, it is
> definitly OK, but to just post it to share is another story that
> requires a righteous motivation.

I'm not sure I understand how the person being deceased makes any
difference in whether or not something it is appropriate. It comes
down to motivation, like you said. The questions is, how do you know
what someone's motivation is? And, actually, consider the possibility
that someone may post something for selfish reasons but someone may
read it and gain something positive from it anyway. So...it's really
hard to say if it is appropiate or not.


> question was partly stimulated by an Email I received from a
student
> who had been going through her notes from class and really felt she
> "heard" something loud and clear that had earlier not really
> registered when she first heard it. Here's the quote she responded
to:
>
> Bhagavan Ramana:
>  "Seek the Self through meditation.
> In this manner, trace every thought back to its
> origin, which is only the mind. Never allow thought
> to run on. If you do, it will be unending. Take it
> back to its starting place, the mind, again and
> again, and it and the mind will both die of
> inaction. The mind exists only by reason of
> thought. Stop that and there is no mind. As each
> doubt and depression arises, ask yourself, "Who is
> it that doubts? What is it that is depressed?" Go
> back constantly to the question, "Who is the 'I'?
> Where is it?" Tear everything away until there is
> nothing but the Source of all left. And then - live
> always in the present and only in it. There is no
> past or future, save in the mind."


I don't think I have ever read this before. I like it. Especially the
line "The mind exists only by reason of thought." Reading something
like this reminds me to witness my mind's activity. To notice whether
I am "caught up" in my own mind at any given moment.

----- Original Message -----
   From: eveneon
   To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 5:51 AM
   Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Reposting Famous Dead Guys (tm)
Wisdom


   I'm not sure I understand how the person being deceased makes any
   difference in whether or not something it is appropriate. It comes
   down to motivation, like you said. The questions is, how do you know
   what someone's motivation is? And, actually, consider the possibility
   that someone may post something for selfish reasons but someone may
   read it and gain something positive from it anyway. So...it's really
   hard to say if it is appropiate or not.

   I conpletly agree. We would have very little if not for those that went
before. Thier words can help us to avoid many mistakes and save us much time in
our learning.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm not sure if I understand what the question is.  I can think of
many topics discussed today that were quoted from deceased
teachers.  For instance, Albert Einstein.  I think all of us could
easily find many quotes by him.  I think it's a great way for their
memories (and knowledge) to live on.

Again, I'm not sure who in particular you are talking about and if
there is some religious reason why he shouldn't be quoted then I
apologize.


--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@y..., eveneon <no_reply@y...>
wrote:
> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@y..., medit8ionsociety
> <no_reply@y...> wrote:
> > There have been some comments recently on other newsgroups
dealing
> > with the appropriateness of posting things that deceased teachers
> > have said. How do you feel about this? Personally, I think if it
> > pertains to helping understand the answer to a question, it is
> > definitly OK, but to just post it to share is another story that
> > requires a righteous motivation.
>
> I'm not sure I understand how the person being deceased makes any
> difference in whether or not something it is appropriate. It comes
> down to motivation, like you said. The questions is, how do you
know
> what someone's motivation is? And, actually, consider the
possibility
> that someone may post something for selfish reasons but someone
may
> read it and gain something positive from it anyway. So...it's
really
> hard to say if it is appropiate or not.
>
>
> > question was partly stimulated by an Email I received from a
> student
> > who had been going through her notes from class and really felt
she
> > "heard" something loud and clear that had earlier not really
> > registered when she first heard it. Here's the quote she
responded
> to:
> >
> > Bhagavan Ramana:
> >  "Seek the Self through meditation.
> > In this manner, trace every thought back to its
> > origin, which is only the mind. Never allow thought
> > to run on. If you do, it will be unending. Take it
> > back to its starting place, the mind, again and
> > again, and it and the mind will both die of
> > inaction. The mind exists only by reason of
> > thought. Stop that and there is no mind. As each
> > doubt and depression arises, ask yourself, "Who is
> > it that doubts? What is it that is depressed?" Go
> > back constantly to the question, "Who is the 'I'?
> > Where is it?" Tear everything away until there is
> > nothing but the Source of all left. And then - live
> > always in the present and only in it. There is no
> > past or future, save in the mind."
>
>
> I don't think I have ever read this before. I like it. Especially
the
> line "The mind exists only by reason of thought." Reading
something
> like this reminds me to witness my mind's activity. To notice
whether
> I am "caught up" in my own mind at any given moment.

Thanks for the input. What has been going on is that there are a few
people who post many times daily, parts of things that they have found
in FDG (Famous Dead Guys tm) books. There seems to be no other reason
than to show that they have read alot of different things and like
being credited with finding them. Sort of like bringing in things for
"show and tell" in kindergarten. This is happening regularly on at
least 2 newsgroups, and there are alot of pro and con feelings about
this. On another newsgroup, when the moderator hasn't received
anything new, or just to fill up space, they cite quote after quote
from their own favorite teachers. So, what we might look at is the
intention behind what is being shared. Let me quote a not-so-famous
living guy (NSFLG?), Kir Li Molari..."There is nothing better than to
share those things that have helped you evolve in consciousness, and
there is nothing so hindering than to divert someones attention away
from  Witnessing their life as it takes place, just to feed your own
ego."

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@y..., "tjperez" <tjperez@y...>
wrote:
> I'm not sure if I understand what the question is.  I can think of
> many topics discussed today that were quoted from deceased
> teachers.  For instance, Albert Einstein.  I think all of us could
> easily find many quotes by him.  I think it's a great way for their
> memories (and knowledge) to live on.
>
> Again, I'm not sure who in particular you are talking about and if
> there is some religious reason why he shouldn't be quoted then I
> apologize.
>
>
> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@y..., eveneon <no_reply@y...>
> wrote:
> > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@y..., medit8ionsociety
> > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
> > > There have been some comments recently on other newsgroups
> dealing
> > > with the appropriateness of posting things that deceased
teachers
> > > have said. How do you feel about this? Personally, I think if it
> > > pertains to helping understand the answer to a question, it is
> > > definitly OK, but to just post it to share is another story that
> > > requires a righteous motivation.
> >
> > I'm not sure I understand how the person being deceased makes any
> > difference in whether or not something it is appropriate. It comes
> > down to motivation, like you said. The questions is, how do you
> know
> > what someone's motivation is? And, actually, consider the
> possibility
> > that someone may post something for selfish reasons but someone
> may
> > read it and gain something positive from it anyway. So...it's
> really
> > hard to say if it is appropiate or not.
> >
> >
> > > question was partly stimulated by an Email I received from a
> > student
> > > who had been going through her notes from class and really felt
> she
> > > "heard" something loud and clear that had earlier not really
> > > registered when she first heard it. Here's the quote she
> responded
> > to:
> > >
> > > Bhagavan Ramana:
> > >  "Seek the Self through meditation.
> > > In this manner, trace every thought back to its
> > > origin, which is only the mind. Never allow thought
> > > to run on. If you do, it will be unending. Take it
> > > back to its starting place, the mind, again and
> > > again, and it and the mind will both die of
> > > inaction. The mind exists only by reason of
> > > thought. Stop that and there is no mind. As each
> > > doubt and depression arises, ask yourself, "Who is
> > > it that doubts? What is it that is depressed?" Go
> > > back constantly to the question, "Who is the 'I'?
> > > Where is it?" Tear everything away until there is
> > > nothing but the Source of all left. And then - live
> > > always in the present and only in it. There is no
> > > past or future, save in the mind."
> >
> >
> > I don't think I have ever read this before. I like it. Especially
> the
> > line "The mind exists only by reason of thought." Reading
> something
> > like this reminds me to witness my mind's activity. To notice
> whether
> > I am "caught up" in my own mind at any given moment.

I am glad I read the quote. pb

Now it is possible!
check it out:
http://www.alexchiu.com/affiliates/clickthru.cgi?id=JanErik

no I don't want to live forever. It is people like you who make a lot of
us not want to live forever. Why do you send this crap?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]