--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
<no_reply@y...> wrote:
> I've added a picture of Judi's son Michael to the photo section.
He'll
> be going back to his post in Germany today (1/1/03) and then,
possibly
> on to Kuwait/Iraq. As you can see, Judi has alot to be proud of and
we
> have alot to be thankful for. Thanks, Michael, and to all our real
> heros.
> Peace and blessings,
> Bob

******** Thank you Bob, so sweet of you. And he's a pistol too. :-)
Literally, he's an "expert" marksmen. All those Nintendo games, ya
know? :-) Let's all cross our fingers all our boys and girls stay
safe and out of harm. God bless them one and all!

Judi

By Swami Sivananda

The man who stands up to his neck in water has a two­fold
experience. His head is exposed to the sun. He experiences both heat
and cold. Such is the experience of a liberated sage. He has double
consciousness. He enjoys the bliss of Brahman, but also has the
experience of this world. He is like a man who knows two languages.

Just as the pot in which asafoetida or onion is kept emits a certain
amount of smell even when it is cleaned several times, so also, a
small trace of ignorance still remains in the mind of a sage. The
jivanmukta (liberated sage) has a consciousness of the body in the
form of an impression in the subconscious mind. That is the reason
why he eats and drinks. Though the instinctive mind with low desires
is destroyed, the pure mind does not perish in the liberated sage.
How will he be able to engage himself in worldly activity without an
instrument, namely, the mind?

The phenomenal universe does not vanish from the vision of the
liberated sage. He sees the world as a dream within himself. Just as
the mirage appears even after the illusory nature of the water is
understood, so also, the world appears for a jivanmukta even after he
has attained self-realisation, even after he has clearly understood
the illusory nature of the world. But, just as the man who has
understood the nature of the mirage will not run after the mirage for
drinking water, so also, the sage who is liberated will not pursue
sensual objects like the worldly-minded people though the world
appears to him. That is the difference between a worldly man and a
liberated sage.

The jivanmukta beholds the one reality or God everywhere and in all
things. For him there is no distinction between a rogue and a saint,
gold and stone, honour and dishonour. He actually feels that all is
himself only that snakes, scorpions, tigers, bears and lions are as
much part of himself as his own eyes, nose, ears, hands and feet. He
is one with the flower, sun, ether, ocean, mountain and sky. He has
cosmic vision and cosmic feelings.

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
<no_reply@y...> wrote:
>  By Swami Sivananda
>
> The man who stands up to his neck in water has a two­fold
> experience. His head is exposed to the sun. He experiences both
heat
> and cold. Such is the experience of a liberated sage. He has double
> consciousness. He enjoys the bliss of Brahman, but also has the
> experience of this world. He is like a man who knows two languages.
>
> Just as the pot in which asafoetida or onion is kept emits a
certain
> amount of smell even when it is cleaned several times, so also, a
> small trace of ignorance still remains in the mind of a sage. The
> jivanmukta (liberated sage) has a consciousness of the body in the
> form of an impression in the subconscious mind. That is the reason
> why he eats and drinks. Though the instinctive mind with low
desires
> is destroyed, the pure mind does not perish in the liberated sage.
> How will he be able to engage himself in worldly activity without
an
> instrument, namely, the mind?
>
> The phenomenal universe does not vanish from the vision of the
> liberated sage. He sees the world as a dream within himself. Just
as
> the mirage appears even after the illusory nature of the water is
> understood, so also, the world appears for a jivanmukta even after
he
> has attained self-realisation, even after he has clearly understood
> the illusory nature of the world. But, just as the man who has
> understood the nature of the mirage will not run after the mirage
for
> drinking water, so also, the sage who is liberated will not pursue
> sensual objects like the worldly-minded people though the world
> appears to him. That is the difference between a worldly man and a
> liberated sage.
>
> The jivanmukta beholds the one reality or God everywhere and in all
> things. For him there is no distinction between a rogue and a
saint,
> gold and stone, honour and dishonour. He actually feels that all is
> himself only that snakes, scorpions, tigers, bears and lions are as
> much part of himself as his own eyes, nose, ears, hands and feet.
He
> is one with the flower, sun, ether, ocean, mountain and sky. He has
> cosmic vision and cosmic feelings.

********* Yes, you awaken happily *in place*, in and *as* the body
mind itself, such that there is no *escaping* anywhere, where would
you go? :-) So any idea of "seeking" therefore, is pretty much out of
the question! :-) We ARE it! OH! :-) So now instead of all that
unhappy seeking miserable business, understanding takes it place.

Voila! Anybody got any Grey Poupon? :-)

Judi

>
> ********* Yes, you awaken happily *in place*, in and *as* the body
> mind itself, such that there is no *escaping* anywhere, where would
> you go? :-) So any idea of "seeking" therefore, is pretty much out
of
> the question! :-) We ARE it! OH! :-) So now instead of all that
> unhappy seeking miserable business, understanding takes it place.
>
> Voila! Anybody got any Grey Poupon? :-)
>
> Judi

******** So when all these gurus come around trying to "save" you,
slap 'em one time for me! :-)

Judi

Thanks, Bob. Beautiful satsang from Sivananda.
The sense of two worlds and especially the
two languages resonate clearly.

So often, religious admonition to live by
a certain code or set of rituals, and even
the claim to exclusivity, is based on
the new language wrongly interpreted as
relative to the physical world and then
"taught" by those who do not know of what
they speak. These are the false prophets
so often warned about by Jesus (and Judi).

Awakened teachers speaking of the results
of their new perceptions of a separate reality
in which a perfect joy, perfect love and perfect
harmony can be known intuitively, are speaking
from experiential knowledge and understanding.

The difficulty, the impossibility, of
distinguishing who is speaking from
experiential knowledge and who is speaking
from ego and rationally acquired, intellectual
postulating, seems the source of much of
the negative reaction to present day teachers
and accusations of fraud and hidden agenda
leveled at them.

As you say, famous dead guys and those
who are "to come in future" fare much
better than those who are in the
present moment - much the way the ego
resists resting in the present moment.

Some of us who have received what I consider
to be pure gift, feel that they were allowed
to see this truth under the agreement that
they would communicate it to others
(Boddisattva vow) - even though they find
that it cannot be put in words and must be
personally experienced to be known. Others
who come to understand this "new language" feel
that any attempt to guide is misguidance.

I received guidance. And am grateful for it.
So, my leaning is to offer to guide and
witness to the possibility of new understanding
available to us, that which we are intuitively
drawn to seek out.

Ultimately, the guidance is to "go within" and
discover what is already there - the kingdom
within. Meditation is the method prescribed
by virtually all awakened teachers.
For me, it was a re-awakening in the midst
of formal meditation, and so the paradigm
in which I "teach" is that our natural state
is one of enlightenment and it is a re-awakening
that "returns us" to our natural enlightenment
and pure joy in living that we knew as a child.

"By their fruits you shall know them".
Your fruit bowl is full and your
manner always gracious, Bob.
I love the work you do and I admire
the equanimity and openness you
maintain. Happy New Year.

Peace and love and gratitude,

Jeff

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea
<jeff@m...>" <jeff@m...> wrote:
> Thanks, Bob. Beautiful satsang from Sivananda.
> The sense of two worlds and especially the
> two languages resonate clearly.
>
> So often, religious admonition to live by
> a certain code or set of rituals, and even
> the claim to exclusivity, is based on
> the new language wrongly interpreted as
> relative to the physical world and then
> "taught" by those who do not know of what
> they speak. These are the false prophets
> so often warned about by Jesus (and Judi).
>
> Awakened teachers speaking of the results
> of their new perceptions of a separate reality
> in which a perfect joy, perfect love and perfect
> harmony can be known intuitively, are speaking
> from experiential knowledge and understanding.
>
********* There is no separate reality Jeff, this is it, and any
ideas of "joy" or whatever are merely your "personal" feelings and
interpreations, your "experience". Whereas understanding itself is
completely and utterly "impersonal".  And that is why understanding
is NOT and can never be an "experience". In order for there to be
an "experience" *you* have to be there. Understanding undermines ALL
experience. A lot of people have had experiential moments of
openness, la-la-la, as you obviously have, but understanding
undermines all of that - the *you* that's having your "precious"
experience and puts it all to rest. In my own case, starting in my
20's I had many experiences of openness and so-called "blow out"
experiences, some with some degree of understanding with them. But
all that comes to end, when that whole "adventure" is "uprooted" and
*finally* seen for the nonsense that it is - an "experiential
adventure", which is either suffered OR enjoyed. In other words, I
now laugh in the face of bliss. I laugh at it all. There is now only
freedom, and I am it. And so are you, but you persist in holding on
to your "experience" as though there's something "wunnerful" about
it. :-) Does "ego" have any relevance here?

Judi

> *finally* seen for the nonsense that it is - an "experiential
> adventure", which is either suffered OR enjoyed. In other words, I
> now laugh in the face of bliss. I laugh at it all. There is now
only
> freedom, and I am it. And so are you, but you persist in holding on
> to your "experience" as though there's something "wunnerful" about
> it. :-) Does "ego" have any relevance here?
>
> Judi

****** I know how desperately you want to be a "teacher", whatever
sort of egotistical nonsense THAT is? I suggest you stick
to "teaching" the piano. Now you might consider me a "teacher"
because I'm telling you to knock the hell it off! Your "slip" is
showing. I'm not a teacher, I'm your friend. You should learn the
difference.

Judi

>
> ****** I know how desperately you want to be a "teacher", whatever
> sort of egotistical nonsense THAT is? I suggest you stick
> to "teaching" the piano. Now you might consider me a "teacher"
> because I'm telling you to knock the hell it off! Your "slip" is
> showing. I'm not a teacher, I'm your friend. You should learn the
> difference.
>
> Judi

******* The bottom line here Jeff and for the rest of you "peddlers"
trying to push some "product" of which there is none! Your "product"
is nothing but your own infatuation, your own ego.

Judi

>
> ******* The bottom line here Jeff and for the rest of
you "peddlers"
> trying to push some "product" of which there is none!
Your "product"
> is nothing but your own infatuation, your own ego.
>
> Judi

******** And if you guys can't see that, heaven help us all!
I'd rather hang with a goddamn used car salesman than to look at the
likes of you "teachers" and "gurus".

Judi

Sweet friend, Judi -

Can you possibly keep your
slasher tongue in its holster
long enough to read more
than one sentence? Your
self-contradiction is
showing all over the place.
You say it's not joy, but you call
it pure joy. It's not experience
but you call it a new
perceptual condition.
New is necessarily experiential,
perception is experiential -
understanding is experiential.
Semantic hair-splitting
just to be an antagonist
is your tiresome game.

And speaking of place, this
really isn't the place for this,
but I'm tired of stepping
in your smelly bullshit
everywhere I go...and I want
a shoot out, Rocky.

Go ahead and run back to the ranch.
I'll be on your trail. I don't
like your style, but I grew
up with people who walked it
and talked it, and I'm willing
and able to stand my ground
against your bluster, buster.

I guess you don't have enough
to rant about at the ranch.
You got an extra bunk?.
You didn't run me off, you
invited me back "anytime".
Still a standing invitation?
You'll have your boys there.

I left because your juvenile boys
grew ridiculously boring.
They didn't scare me off, my
side was hurting from laughing
at their naivety, pompous parroting,
and pitiful pandering to you.
You talk about others wanting fawning
disciples. What do you have at
the ranch? They got nothing.
Less than Snarlo's Guru Raters,
even.

And get real, you jumped around
like a tenderfoot with someone
shooting at her feet when my
inquiries got too hot.

You, I challenge to duel...
Hot-Air filled Cream puffs
at 50 paces. That's about
all you got other than
a bundt pan.

Still reading?...

On July 21, 1975 at about
9:30am my life changed, a
door opened. It was not a flash,
not a la la la moment, it was a
permanent shift of identity,
a new awareness of a reality
that I had been separated
from - a separate reality -
until known, a new overriding
current running through my every
conscious moment from that
moment on. And it was and is
blissful, peaceful beyond
understanding, and full of joy.
Still is.Doesn't mean I don't have
a bold and bad-ass ego, or
that I run from a scrap.

Not all sages are milquetoasts,
the best of them have been
known to fashion a whip and
crack a few heads.

Whatever I choose to call
my awakening experience
cannot be negated by your
constant carping. Its wasted.
The person who entered
the meditation center,
after 24 years of seeking,
never left. He ceased to exit.
(Sound familiar?)

So you don't subscribe to
the Boddisattva vow? I do.
I took it. I honor it.

Your shots at my ego
are in vain. I grin
and bear it, because I don't
miss the wry smile behind
all your seeming ferocity.

But for the sake of
those who are here
for inquiry...

Can't you ever just shut
the fuck up, and let someone
speak without whacking them on
the head with your tight-ass,
self-righteous, know-it-all
table of the Judi commandments?

Your need to straighten
out all the error you
see in everyone else
might have something to
do with the ego you
consistently see
all around you.

Rude enough to win
you over?

Your blissed out bawdy friend,

Jeff

PS: My apologies to the gentle folks here
for this evening's R-Rated entertainment.
Somewhere there's a lesson here.I'm going
to go see what's cookin' at the ranch.

Aha! Struck a nerve did I? Well there you have it.
Sure, come on over the ranch, I'm not the only one who can see
through your "pink experiential panties".  :-)

Judi



--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea
<jeff@m...>" <jeff@m...> wrote:
> Sweet friend, Judi -
>
> Can you possibly keep your
> slasher tongue in its holster
> long enough to read more
> than one sentence? Your
> self-contradiction is
> showing all over the place.
> You say it's not joy, but you call
> it pure joy. It's not experience
> but you call it a new
> perceptual condition.
> New is necessarily experiential,
> perception is experiential -
> understanding is experiential.
> Semantic hair-splitting
> just to be an antagonist
> is your tiresome game.
>
> And speaking of place, this
> really isn't the place for this,
> but I'm tired of stepping
> in your smelly bullshit
> everywhere I go...and I want
> a shoot out, Rocky.
>
> Go ahead and run back to the ranch.
> I'll be on your trail. I don't
> like your style, but I grew
> up with people who walked it
> and talked it, and I'm willing
> and able to stand my ground
> against your bluster, buster.
>
> I guess you don't have enough
> to rant about at the ranch.
> You got an extra bunk?.
> You didn't run me off, you
> invited me back "anytime".
> Still a standing invitation?
> You'll have your boys there.
>
> I left because your juvenile boys
> grew ridiculously boring.
> They didn't scare me off, my
> side was hurting from laughing
> at their naivety, pompous parroting,
> and pitiful pandering to you.
> You talk about others wanting fawning
> disciples. What do you have at
> the ranch? They got nothing.
> Less than Snarlo's Guru Raters,
> even.
>
> And get real, you jumped around
> like a tenderfoot with someone
> shooting at her feet when my
> inquiries got too hot.
>
> You, I challenge to duel...
> Hot-Air filled Cream puffs
> at 50 paces. That's about
> all you got other than
> a bundt pan.
>
> Still reading?...
>
> On July 21, 1975 at about
> 9:30am my life changed, a
> door opened. It was not a flash,
> not a la la la moment, it was a
> permanent shift of identity,
> a new awareness of a reality
> that I had been separated
> from - a separate reality -
> until known, a new overriding
> current running through my every
> conscious moment from that
> moment on. And it was and is
> blissful, peaceful beyond
> understanding, and full of joy.
> Still is.Doesn't mean I don't have
> a bold and bad-ass ego, or
> that I run from a scrap.
>
> Not all sages are milquetoasts,
> the best of them have been
> known to fashion a whip and
> crack a few heads.
>
> Whatever I choose to call
> my awakening experience
> cannot be negated by your
> constant carping. Its wasted.
> The person who entered
> the meditation center,
> after 24 years of seeking,
> never left. He ceased to exit.
> (Sound familiar?)
>
> So you don't subscribe to
> the Boddisattva vow? I do.
> I took it. I honor it.
>
> Your shots at my ego
> are in vain. I grin
> and bear it, because I don't
> miss the wry smile behind
> all your seeming ferocity.
>
> But for the sake of
> those who are here
> for inquiry...
>
> Can't you ever just shut
> the fuck up, and let someone
> speak without whacking them on
> the head with your tight-ass,
> self-righteous, know-it-all
> table of the Judi commandments?
>
> Your need to straighten
> out all the error you
> see in everyone else
> might have something to
> do with the ego you
> consistently see
> all around you.
>
> Rude enough to win
> you over?
>
> Your blissed out bawdy friend,
>
> Jeff
>
> PS: My apologies to the gentle folks here
> for this evening's R-Rated entertainment.
> Somewhere there's a lesson here.I'm going
> to go see what's cookin' at the ranch.

I keep seeing the word "Ranch". What is it?

Is it another group?
Where is it?
What happens there?

Are we all invited?


...Tony

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea
<jeff@m...>" <jeff@m...> wrote:
> Sweet friend, Judi -
>
> Can you possibly keep your
> slasher tongue in its holster
> long enough to read more
> than one sentence? Your
> self-contradiction is
> showing all over the place.
> You say it's not joy, but you call
> it pure joy.

***** Big difference. It's "indistinguishable".

  It's not experience
> but you call it a new
> perceptual condition.

******** Yep.

> New is necessarily experiential,
> perception is experiential -

****** Nope, for "experience" to be, there would have to be
an "experiencer", of which there is none. :-)


> understanding is experiential.

****** Wrong again! Understanding is non-experiential.
Ever heard the term "non-duality"? Well there you have it.

> Semantic hair-splitting
> just to be an antagonist
> is your tiresome game.
>
******** It's not hair-splitting Jeff, it's just the way it is.
You're splitting yourself off as the "haver" of experience.
Into good and bad experience, which is true for you, but not for me,
I see all experience for what it is. Therein lies the difference.


> And speaking of place, this
> really isn't the place for this,
> but I'm tired of stepping
> in your smelly bullshit
> everywhere I go...and I want
> a shoot out, Rocky.
>
> Go ahead and run back to the ranch.
> I'll be on your trail. I don't
> like your style, but I grew
> up with people who walked it
> and talked it, and I'm willing
> and able to stand my ground
> against your bluster, buster.
>
****** Take another look, you have no "ground" to stand on.
Or more to the point, your "ground" is your own ego.


> I guess you don't have enough
> to rant about at the ranch.
> You got an extra bunk?.
> You didn't run me off, you
> invited me back "anytime".
> Still a standing invitation?
> You'll have your boys there.
>
> I left because your juvenile boys
> grew ridiculously boring.

******** Yes, we're "boring" as hell. :-)


> They didn't scare me off, my
> side was hurting from laughing
> at their naivety, pompous parroting,
> and pitiful pandering to you.
> You talk about others wanting fawning
> disciples.

***** There's no such "fawning" going on.

What do you have at
> the ranch? They got nothing.

****** Well, you're right there. Got plenty of nothing. :-)

> Less than Snarlo's Guru Raters,
> even.
>
> And get real, you jumped around
> like a tenderfoot with someone
> shooting at her feet when my
> inquiries got too hot.
>
***** Not true, you just didn't like the answers you got.

> You, I challenge to duel...
> Hot-Air filled Cream puffs
> at 50 paces. That's about
> all you got other than
> a bundt pan.
>
> Still reading?...
>
> On July 21, 1975 at about
> 9:30am my life changed, a
> door opened. It was not a flash,
> not a la la la moment, it was a
> permanent shift of identity,
> a new awareness of a reality
> that I had been separated
> from - a separate reality -
> until known, a new overriding
> current running through my every
> conscious moment from that
> moment on. And it was and is
> blissful, peaceful beyond
> understanding, and full of joy.
> Still is.Doesn't mean I don't have
> a bold and bad-ass ego, or
> that I run from a scrap.
>
> Not all sages are milquetoasts,
> the best of them have been
> known to fashion a whip and
> crack a few heads.
>
> Whatever I choose to call
> my awakening experience
> cannot be negated by your
> constant carping. Its wasted.
> The person who entered
> the meditation center,
> after 24 years of seeking,
> never left. He ceased to exit.
> (Sound familiar?)
>
> So you don't subscribe to
> the Boddisattva vow? I do.
> I took it. I honor it.
>
******* I chuckle. :-) LOL You are too funny Jeff!
What the hell you honoring?  LOL  Don't be ridiculous.
Give it a rest. :-)

Judi

I find the banter very entertaining.

It reminds me of the 'French Cafe' dance sequence where a man and woman
perform a modern ballet that simulates ugly fight movements - but they end
up kissing each other since they really are in love.

...Tony

Giddy up.

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "tosime" <
tosime@b...> wrote:
>
> I find the banter very entertaining.
>
> It reminds me of the 'French Cafe' dance sequence where a man and woman
> perform a modern ballet that simulates ugly fight movements - but they end
> up kissing each other since they really are in love.
>
> ...Tony

Well, thanks a lot, Tony. You gave
the whole plot away. I want a refund.

Love,

Jeff

oooops...."sorry-o" - as we say in pigeon english over here.

...Tony


PS - What is the "Ranch"?

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Belyea <jeff@...> [mailto:jeff@...]
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 12:48 AM
To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: THE SAGE'S VIEW - all


--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "tosime" <
tosime@b...> wrote:
>
> I find the banter very entertaining.
>
> It reminds me of the 'French Cafe' dance sequence where a man and woman
> perform a modern ballet that simulates ugly fight movements - but they end
> up kissing each other since they really are in love.
>
> ...Tony

Well, thanks a lot, Tony. You gave
the whole plot away. I want a refund.

Love,

Jeff



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hi, again, Tony -

The Ranch is another group site
run by Judi.She approves all members
before they can join and moderates all
messages before they are posted.

A word to the wise. She's on her
best behavior here. She's ruthless
at "The Ranch" - full name, The
End of The Rope, Ranch.

Best,

Jeff

Hi, again, Tony -

The Ranch is another group site
run by Judi.She approves all members
before they can join and moderates all
messages before they are posted.

A word to the wise. She's on her
best behavior here. She's ruthless
at "The Ranch" - full name, The
End of The Rope, Ranch.

Best,

Jeff

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea
<jeff@m...>" <jeff@m...> wrote:
> Hi, again, Tony -
>
> The Ranch is another group site
> run by Judi.She approves all members
> before they can join and moderates all
> messages before they are posted.
>
****** No, that's not true. No posts are moderated.


> A word to the wise. She's on her
> best behavior here. She's ruthless
> at "The Ranch" - full name, The
> End of The Rope, Ranch.
>
******* Well that's why I don't people with anger problems on.
If someone has an anger problem, they got to work that out first.
There's a certain level of emotional maturity that's required. And
I'm not mean by any means, but rarely do I ever pull any punches
either, but it's all done in love, good fun and humor. And everyone
seems to have a good time.

Judi



> Best,
>
> Jeff

Thank you Jeff,
I do choose joy.. i love joy! there is nothing more beautifull in my life than
the freedom.. (I used to travel a lot and i have spent a few months on the
mountains; i have left my parents home at 18) and this freedom brings me a lot
of joy in every day of my life... Joy is the one who makes me dance, is the one
who makes me open my eyes more and more to reality, joy makes me want to do
everything right... as this should be the real state of a human being - JOY.

I was saying about pain that it is a great teacher (and it always reminds me to
do my "homeworks"), because i think there is a special state when one is in
pains... when there is pain, there is also more atention - to both: physical
body and the mind... When i'm in pains i know that i see this like a picture,
and in this picture i can almost see myself laid in bed with a distorsioned
face. When i have a pain, almost my entire atention goes there to "see" it..

ps i'm very behind with the talks here.. i didn't feel very well those days

mirela
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Jeff Belyea <jeff@...>
   To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:07 PM
   Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] The OK Corral


   Mirela -

   Asking questions is
   part of the purpose
   of this group as I
   read it. We all
   benefit from the
   exploration of
   consciousness, so
   please keep up the
   questions. And...

   Choose joy.

   In joy and understanding
   there is clarity and
   decisive, unencumbered
   action. Joy is not
   inactive and unaware
   or unconcerned. Joy is
   much better than that.
   Joy brings unshakable
   self-confidence, trust
   in your own judgment
   and the beautiful,
   graceful spontaneity
   of a child. Joy is
   not selfish, it is
   caring and kind and
   wise. Choose joy.

   The peaceful quiet
   of meditation opens
   the door to the real
   experience of joy -
   a fullness of joy
   that sees the entire
   world as if for the
   first time in every
   new moment, sees the
   love and goodness in
   everyone, delights in
   a sunrise, a smile,
   a hug. Bring joy
   to the world, Mirela.
   There's already
   enough pain.

   I wish you peace
   and love and joy
   and understanding
   in the new year,
   and in every new
   moment.

   Love,

   Jeff



         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
               ADVERTISEMENT




   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
   meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you Bob for your insights. You really made me laugh when you said that
people maditate in front of the computers... That means that i really meditate
all day long.. my brother can barely meditate once a day for a few minutes in
front of the computer :)
Well, about the FDG's, i red just a few works of them, as Nisargadatta, Osho,
Krishnamurti, Papaji, and come to know some of the living famous guys as Eli and
Gangaji Jaxon, Bedri Cetin, Aziz Kristof, Sarlo...
mirela
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: medit8ionsociety
   To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:05 PM
   Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] The OK Corral


   Dear Mirela,
   Actually, asking questions in the way that you do is a form of
   meditation (Jnana Yoga). It is analagous to the method where you ask
   yourself "Who am I"? The best way to learn about meditation is by
   meditating. In the 21st Century, millions of people now meditate in
   front of their computer screens instead of in front of an alter. When
   you start getting responses from such enlightened people as Ganga,
   Jeff, Ramon, Judi, Michael, Tony and others, it can be even more
   illuminating an experience than worshiping and meditating about the
   FDG's (Famous Dead Guys - I think that's the right term, as coined by
   Sri Bruceji). Your interactions have opened many doors of wisdom and
   are much appreciated. Thanks!
   Peace and blessings,
   Bob
   --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Athanor"
   <athanor@c...> wrote:
   > Well Jeff,
   > i think you are right about the message below... i red it when i
   signed up, but i forgot it.. the purpose of this group.. i came in
   here and start asking everyone questions instead of sharing meditation
   methods (as i don't meditate...as i don't know what is that or if i
   need it)...
   > So, sorry for disturbing!
   > Wish you all the best,
   > Mirela
   >   ----- Original Message -----
   >   From: Jeff Belyea <jeff@m...>
   >   To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
   >   Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 11:17 PM
   >   Subject: [Meditation Society of America] The OK Corral
   >
   >
   >   As I read it...
   >
   >   "The Meditation Society of America's
   >   goal is to share meditation methods
   >   from all traditions. This group is
   >   an opportunity to ask and answer
   >   questions about meditation and
   >   discuss experiences. If you gain
   >   greater Self Knowledge, inner peace
   >   and self control, it will have
   >   achieved its aim."
   >
   >   Just reviewing to remind myself
   >   where I am in the maze of Yahoo!
   >   Groups. And trying to make it safely
   >   out of Dodge City and back to the
   >   sanctity of my meditation pillow.
   >
   >   Ramon's post about choosing
   >   the YES or NO route was one
   >   of the most enjoyable and
   >   lucid today. I chose the
   >   ecstatic route as well, Ramon.
   >   Also after a healthy dose of
   >   dark nights of the soul.
   >
   >   There's life beyond the suffering,
   >   whether you choose to jump right
   >   into it and get burned to a crisp,
   >   finally annihilating the "I"dentity,
   >   or totally surrendering to life after
   >   years of struggle and finding release
   >   in the grace of a mind-blowing new
   >   understanding that presents itself
   >   to you "out of the blue", or more
   >   poetically and scripturally,"beyond
   >   what you could think or imagine".
   >
   >   A shoot out the "I'm OK, you're not"
   >   corral is not the only path open to
   >   those who have come the end of their
   >   rope. Gentle people who remember
   >   gentle people who offered gentle
   >   guidance, especially in the form of
   >   meditation techniques, are the most
   >   likely to turn to help others - out
   >   of the goodness they so gratefully
   >   discovered in their own hearts
   >   and now recognize in all hearts.
   >
   >   Sweetness and light or sulfur and
   >   molasses. You choose.
   >
   >   Sweet dreams,
   >
   >   Jeff
   >
   >
   >
   >   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
   >   meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
   >
   >
   >
   >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
   Service.
   >
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
               ADVERTISEMENT




   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
   meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shadow Play of Light and Devils Advocate

Oh Judi, Oh Judi, you come in shadow play - wearing the mask  -
                           of
Satan - to sift that which may be sifted
                            as
Mara - with arrows to pierce that which may be pierced
                            as
the Angel that blows the tumpet, to shake the foundations of what may
be shaken
                            as
Kali to cut that which may be cut
                            as
Lillith to tempt that which may be tempted
                             as
Wrathful Daikini, to burn that which may be burnt....

Let the secrets of this play now be given in clear Light.
For those to understand who have the eyes to see and the ears to
hear...

In total darkness ignorance is...  Light gives rise to Light and
Shadow.
The brighter the light the more readily the shadow is seen and
cognised.
For Light is wisdom and knowledge...

Beyond the Light and Dark is Source - That which IS - Clear -
Absolute-
Pure Potential- Untainted Original Mind- Essense and Seed of Life -
from
THIS sprouts ability to know...

Now hear and cognise the answers to this Shadow Play -

Where clinging is Not - what may be sifted?

Where emptiness IS - what may be pierced?

When  Primal Source is One - what may be shaken?

When egos illusion has died - what may be cut?

Where desires are Not - what may be tempted?

Where even Purity has been refined until it is no more and only
essense remains - what may be burnt?

While clinging to light and dark the gunas (rajasic/ doing -
tamasic/undoing - satvik/neutral) remain in play....

at 0 point all falls away and simply the Clear Light of Being IS.....

This is the Buddha Mind.....

One tears down and One builds up - both are honoring their natures
and wisdom garnered...  One negates not the other for many are the
ways to Source....
Many are the lights of Gods wisdom...  Diverse are the ways and paths
to Source....   May all be honored for what they bring for the
Liberation that is shared....


Shanti Shanti Maha Shanti Om .....g.....

Nasrudin once purchased a big rowboat and took a trip across the sea,
far from his village, on an errand. Shortly afterward, Nasrudin was
seen carrying the big rowboat on his back as he walked through the
village. Everyday it was the same thing. Everywhere Nasrudin went he
carried the big rowboat on his back.  This went on for several weeks
until one of the villagers, who was very curious, approached Nasrudin
and asked:
"Nasrudin, why are you always carrying that big rowboat around on your
back?"
Taking a breath as he adjusted the rowboat on his back, Nasrudin said:
"Oh, you see this rowboat came in very handy when I traveled across
the sea, so I'm carring it with me. You never know when I might need
it."

Good to be back again!
As a very good friend said, A genuine guide is Your True Self. i agree with
that, but there is one more question here: What is "Your True Self?" -very hard
to answer...

i think that the thing is not that we are not strong enough, but we are not weak
enough. If i already knew everything that is to be known, i wouldn't
need guidance, and i would have no questions. Someone who has walked the path
before you can help. This is the role of a true spiritual teacher.

This is what a friend told me:
"External teacher is not always necessary, but when it comes, and
if it is genuine, it is nothing but Your Essence showing Herself to You
in another form." --So, i believe that it must be hard to recognise your
teacher..  How do you realise that THIS is the teacher you've been waiting for?

i know that a  true teacher does not give paths, techniques or methods on how to
live or how to find Truth. That the teacher and the disciple must have a very
close relationship, they almost have to be as one.

mirela



   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Jeff Belyea <jeff@...>
   To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 9:12 PM
   Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: THE SAGE'S VIEW OF THE WORLD


   Thanks, Bob. Beautiful satsang from Sivananda.
   The sense of two worlds and especially the
   two languages resonate clearly.

   So often, religious admonition to live by
   a certain code or set of rituals, and even
   the claim to exclusivity, is based on
   the new language wrongly interpreted as
   relative to the physical world and then
   "taught" by those who do not know of what
   they speak. These are the false prophets
   so often warned about by Jesus (and Judi).

   Awakened teachers speaking of the results
   of their new perceptions of a separate reality
   in which a perfect joy, perfect love and perfect
   harmony can be known intuitively, are speaking
   from experiential knowledge and understanding.

   The difficulty, the impossibility, of
   distinguishing who is speaking from
   experiential knowledge and who is speaking
   from ego and rationally acquired, intellectual
   postulating, seems the source of much of
   the negative reaction to present day teachers
   and accusations of fraud and hidden agenda
   leveled at them.

   As you say, famous dead guys and those
   who are "to come in future" fare much
   better than those who are in the
   present moment - much the way the ego
   resists resting in the present moment.

   Some of us who have received what I consider
   to be pure gift, feel that they were allowed
   to see this truth under the agreement that
   they would communicate it to others
   (Boddisattva vow) - even though they find
   that it cannot be put in words and must be
   personally experienced to be known. Others
   who come to understand this "new language" feel
   that any attempt to guide is misguidance.

   I received guidance. And am grateful for it.
   So, my leaning is to offer to guide and
   witness to the possibility of new understanding
   available to us, that which we are intuitively
   drawn to seek out.

   Ultimately, the guidance is to "go within" and
   discover what is already there - the kingdom
   within. Meditation is the method prescribed
   by virtually all awakened teachers.
   For me, it was a re-awakening in the midst
   of formal meditation, and so the paradigm
   in which I "teach" is that our natural state
   is one of enlightenment and it is a re-awakening
   that "returns us" to our natural enlightenment
   and pure joy in living that we knew as a child.

   "By their fruits you shall know them".
   Your fruit bowl is full and your
   manner always gracious, Bob.
   I love the work you do and I admire
   the equanimity and openness you
   maintain. Happy New Year.

   Peace and love and gratitude,

   Jeff



         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
               ADVERTISEMENT




   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
   meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

So, Judi, what is the truth? what is the reality? what is joy? and what is the
interpretation? don't you think that understanding means truth?
tell more about the 20's experience of openes..
mirela
   ********* There is no separate reality Jeff, this is it, and any
   ideas of "joy" or whatever are merely your "personal" feelings and
   interpreations, your "experience". Whereas understanding itself is
   completely and utterly "impersonal".  And that is why understanding
   is NOT and can never be an "experience". In order for there to be
   an "experience" *you* have to be there. Understanding undermines ALL
   experience. A lot of people have had experiential moments of
   openness, la-la-la, as you obviously have, but understanding
   undermines all of that - the *you* that's having your "precious"
   experience and puts it all to rest. In my own case, starting in my
   20's I had many experiences of openness and so-called "blow out"
   experiences, some with some degree of understanding with them. But
   all that comes to end, when that whole "adventure" is "uprooted" and
   *finally* seen for the nonsense that it is - an "experiential
   adventure", which is either suffered OR enjoyed. In other words, I
   now laugh in the face of bliss. I laugh at it all. There is now only
   freedom, and I am it. And so are you, but you persist in holding on
   to your "experience" as though there's something "wunnerful" about
   it. :-) Does "ego" have any relevance here?

   Judi








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jeff,
how old are you?
mirela
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Jeff Belyea <jeff@...>
   To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 12:39 AM
   Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: THE SAGE'S VIEW


   Sweet friend, Judi -

   Can you possibly keep your
   slasher tongue in its holster
   long enough to read more
   than one sentence? Your
   self-contradiction is
   showing all over the place.
   You say it's not joy, but you call
   it pure joy. It's not experience
   but you call it a new
   perceptual condition.
   New is necessarily experiential,
   perception is experiential -
   understanding is experiential.
   Semantic hair-splitting
   just to be an antagonist
   is your tiresome game.

   And speaking of place, this
   really isn't the place for this,
   but I'm tired of stepping
   in your smelly bullshit
   everywhere I go...and I want
   a shoot out, Rocky.

   Go ahead and run back to the ranch.
   I'll be on your trail. I don't
   like your style, but I grew
   up with people who walked it
   and talked it, and I'm willing
   and able to stand my ground
   against your bluster, buster.

   I guess you don't have enough
   to rant about at the ranch.
   You got an extra bunk?.
   You didn't run me off, you
   invited me back "anytime".
   Still a standing invitation?
   You'll have your boys there.

   I left because your juvenile boys
   grew ridiculously boring.
   They didn't scare me off, my
   side was hurting from laughing
   at their naivety, pompous parroting,
   and pitiful pandering to you.
   You talk about others wanting fawning
   disciples. What do you have at
   the ranch? They got nothing.
   Less than Snarlo's Guru Raters,
   even.

   And get real, you jumped around
   like a tenderfoot with someone
   shooting at her feet when my
   inquiries got too hot.

   You, I challenge to duel...
   Hot-Air filled Cream puffs
   at 50 paces. That's about
   all you got other than
   a bundt pan.

   Still reading?...

   On July 21, 1975 at about
   9:30am my life changed, a
   door opened. It was not a flash,
   not a la la la moment, it was a
   permanent shift of identity,
   a new awareness of a reality
   that I had been separated
   from - a separate reality -
   until known, a new overriding
   current running through my every
   conscious moment from that
   moment on. And it was and is
   blissful, peaceful beyond
   understanding, and full of joy.
   Still is.Doesn't mean I don't have
   a bold and bad-ass ego, or
   that I run from a scrap.

   Not all sages are milquetoasts,
   the best of them have been
   known to fashion a whip and
   crack a few heads.

   Whatever I choose to call
   my awakening experience
   cannot be negated by your
   constant carping. Its wasted.
   The person who entered
   the meditation center,
   after 24 years of seeking,
   never left. He ceased to exit.
   (Sound familiar?)

   So you don't subscribe to
   the Boddisattva vow? I do.
   I took it. I honor it.

   Your shots at my ego
   are in vain. I grin
   and bear it, because I don't
   miss the wry smile behind
   all your seeming ferocity.

   But for the sake of
   those who are here
   for inquiry...

   Can't you ever just shut
   the fuck up, and let someone
   speak without whacking them on
   the head with your tight-ass,
   self-righteous, know-it-all
   table of the Judi commandments?

   Your need to straighten
   out all the error you
   see in everyone else
   might have something to
   do with the ego you
   consistently see
   all around you.

   Rude enough to win
   you over?

   Your blissed out bawdy friend,

   Jeff

   PS: My apologies to the gentle folks here
   for this evening's R-Rated entertainment.
   Somewhere there's a lesson here.I'm going
   to go see what's cookin' at the ranch.



         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
               ADVERTISEMENT




   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
   meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Understanding is experiential! How do you understand than, Judi? i guess that
everyone has experiences... at least everyone alive .. :-) and judi, if the ego
is not the ground, than what is it? what are you standing on?
what's wrong with Sarlo?
mirela

   > understanding is experiential.

   ****** Wrong again! Understanding is non-experiential.
   Ever heard the term "non-duality"? Well there you have it.

   > Semantic hair-splitting
   > just to be an antagonist
   > is your tiresome game.
   >
   ******** It's not hair-splitting Jeff, it's just the way it is.
   You're splitting yourself off as the "haver" of experience.
   Into good and bad experience, which is true for you, but not for me,
   I see all experience for what it is. Therein lies the difference.


   > And speaking of place, this
   > really isn't the place for this,
   > but I'm tired of stepping
   > in your smelly bullshit
   > everywhere I go...and I want
   > a shoot out, Rocky.
   >
   > Go ahead and run back to the ranch.
   > I'll be on your trail. I don't
   > like your style, but I grew
   > up with people who walked it
   > and talked it, and I'm willing
   > and able to stand my ground
   > against your bluster, buster.
   >
   ****** Take another look, you have no "ground" to stand on.
   Or more to the point, your "ground" is your own ego.


   > I guess you don't have enough
   > to rant about at the ranch.
   > You got an extra bunk?.
   > You didn't run me off, you
   > invited me back "anytime".
   > Still a standing invitation?
   > You'll have your boys there.
   >
   > I left because your juvenile boys
   > grew ridiculously boring.

   ******** Yes, we're "boring" as hell. :-)


   > They didn't scare me off, my
   > side was hurting from laughing
   > at their naivety, pompous parroting,
   > and pitiful pandering to you.
   > You talk about others wanting fawning
   > disciples.

   ***** There's no such "fawning" going on.

   What do you have at
   > the ranch? They got nothing.

   ****** Well, you're right there. Got plenty of nothing. :-)

   > Less than Snarlo's Guru Raters,
   > even.
   >
   > And get real, you jumped around
   > like a tenderfoot with someone
   > shooting at her feet when my
   > inquiries got too hot.
   >
   ***** Not true, you just didn't like the answers you got.

   > You, I challenge to duel...
   > Hot-Air filled Cream puffs
   > at 50 paces. That's about
   > all you got other than
   > a bundt pan.
   >
   > Still reading?...
   >
   > On July 21, 1975 at about
   > 9:30am my life changed, a
   > door opened. It was not a flash,
   > not a la la la moment, it was a
   > permanent shift of identity,
   > a new awareness of a reality
   > that I had been separated
   > from - a separate reality -
   > until known, a new overriding
   > current running through my every
   > conscious moment from that
   > moment on. And it was and is
   > blissful, peaceful beyond
   > understanding, and full of joy.
   > Still is.Doesn't mean I don't have
   > a bold and bad-ass ego, or
   > that I run from a scrap.
   >
   > Not all sages are milquetoasts,
   > the best of them have been
   > known to fashion a whip and
   > crack a few heads.
   >
   > Whatever I choose to call
   > my awakening experience
   > cannot be negated by your
   > constant carping. Its wasted.
   > The person who entered
   > the meditation center,
   > after 24 years of seeking,
   > never left. He ceased to exit.
   > (Sound familiar?)
   >
   > So you don't subscribe to
   > the Boddisattva vow? I do.
   > I took it. I honor it.
   >
   ******* I chuckle. :-) LOL You are too funny Jeff!
   What the hell you honoring?  LOL  Don't be ridiculous.
   Give it a rest. :-)

   Judi



         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
               ADVERTISEMENT




   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
   meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mirela wrote:
  How do you realise that THIS is the teacher you've been waiting for?
>
> i know that a  true teacher does not give paths, techniques or
methods on how to live or how to find Truth. That the teacher and the
disciple must have a very close relationship, they almost have to be
as one.
>
> mirela
Hi - Bob here - Actually, I think that a "true teacher" does "give
paths, techniques or methods on how to live or how to find Truth."
Ramana directed us to ask "Who Am I", Ganga shares breath and
awareness techniques. Papajeff also. Even Judi ridiculing "seeking" is
pointing to how to find Truth. Swami Sivananda only met his Guru
physically for a few minutes, but stated many times that he kept him
closer than his heart. Through Grace alone, the veil of illusion is
ripped asunder, and the infinite, eternal divine reality presents
itself. The classic spiritual understanding is that when you need a
teacher, the universe will present one to you. Until then, perhaps the
best we can do is to follow the suggestion that Swami Sivananda
gives..."Be good, do good".
Peace and blessings,
Bob

Bob,
How does one recognise his/her teacher?
Mirela
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: medit8ionsociety
   To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 8:39 AM
   Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Jeff


   Mirela wrote:
   How do you realise that THIS is the teacher you've been waiting for?
   >
   > i know that a  true teacher does not give paths, techniques or
   methods on how to live or how to find Truth. That the teacher and the
   disciple must have a very close relationship, they almost have to be
   as one.
   >
   > mirela
   Hi - Bob here - Actually, I think that a "true teacher" does "give
   paths, techniques or methods on how to live or how to find Truth."
   Ramana directed us to ask "Who Am I", Ganga shares breath and
   awareness techniques. Papajeff also. Even Judi ridiculing "seeking" is
   pointing to how to find Truth. Swami Sivananda only met his Guru
   physically for a few minutes, but stated many times that he kept him
   closer than his heart. Through Grace alone, the veil of illusion is
   ripped asunder, and the infinite, eternal divine reality presents
   itself. The classic spiritual understanding is that when you need a
   teacher, the universe will present one to you. Until then, perhaps the
   best we can do is to follow the suggestion that Swami Sivananda
   gives..."Be good, do good".
   Peace and blessings,
   Bob


         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
               ADVERTISEMENT




   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
   meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]