Thanks, Sean. First of all, let me write that you are one of the most

beautiful and pristine BE-INGS I have ever known. (Note for readers:

I first met Sean when he was 8 months old, and spent time with him

until age 6, and for the past 30 years have had little contact). It

was evident from the first days I knew you.



Secondly, I apologize for misspelling Tremblay (Trembley), my lame

excuse is that it was late (for me) and we share a lot of B E L Y and

A letters in our names.



Yes, I perfectly agree that the childlike state IS the return to the

Garden of Eden, and I appreciate your comments that your earthy view

if from that perspective. As I wrote, the primary identity

(Transcendence) enfolds the secondary identify without sacrificing

the joy of both. So, you can enjoy the sensual delights and the

blissful non-attachment at the same time. This may boogle the literal

mind, but the transcendent realization harmonizes this naturally.



About the pain issue, that I have not followed closely...



Again, you are right. If pain and discomfort has manifested, it has

not been dealt with spiritually and is best addressed on the physical

level, through the wisdom of much of conventional medicine and trauma

treatment. (Bob Rose has both the knowledge of the traditional

medical approach and, of course, the meditative approach...and he may

expond on this).



Your recall of listening to the Joe Cocker album just about gave me

an out-of-body experience. Thanks for the delicious taste of

nostalgia. (BTW - Your mother was a great cook in those days.)



Love, as always,



Jeff



--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean tremblay

<bethjams9@...> wrote:

>

> Jeff,  I think a few need to respond.  What I have been reading

recently in reference to pain and meditation Does not seem to

adiquitly adress Aideen's problem.  The article sent refers to

the "Normal" and "Minor" aches and pains assciated with sitting in

Zazen for a determinate amount of time, or on a bus or an airport

bench for that matter. It does not adress pain indications of serious

problems and what Aideen was describing was an indication that

something may be Biologically wrong, Saint Hildigard, Mary Baker Eddy

the Buddha and many others have discussed the inner roots of disease

and injury, but the injury must be treated as well as the cause of it

in the physical as well as the metaphysical.  The point is the

student needs to develope not an intuitive link to understanding the

mind and bodies relationship and to understand the signals that the

body sends us.   "Transending" physical limitations are both

powerfull and positive things examples being marathon runners

>  and endurance events.  That is not the same thing as ignoring a

potentialy serious inury for the sake of a vaque "Attachment" to

ideas of transendence. It would defeat the purpose of meditation  for

the student to endure physical suffering especialy suffering that may

indicate a serious heath problem.  Most of us know the difference

between serious pain and superficial discomfort but the fear of

failure at our practice or disciplin might cause us to ignore of

override the physical indications of injury.   Biologicaly speaking

our minds and bodies are born, grow and then decay.  At a certain

point on a cellular level we begin to die and we spend years doing

it. in the interim, we can transend that discomfort of dieing, we can

override the discomfort of dieing but we are still dieing.   Pain

injury and illness are are a part of this. And if not fully adressed

they can become a self consuming thing in and of itself.  AN example

would be my Aunt who died of cancer. It took her

>  ten years to die, after many years of diet, meditation, chemo, and

more meditation she died, she felt pain and discomfort but she died

and was at peace the moment she did.

>   I wanted to touch also on Jeffs point returning to a pure state

like childhood,  I agree completly,  that is what I refer to as the

garden of eden, because that is the condition of our essencial

human "BE-ING" when I was a kid I still remember running as fat as i

could through the main woods occasionaly stopping to pick wild

blackberry or an occasioal wild strawberry, I remember climbing trees

and dicovering a stream to be forded or a cool little grotto to hide

out in, there were horseshoe crabs in the bay inlets and blue heron,

the woods had porcupine and racoons.  The world was wonderfull and as

a kid you directly experience it for what it is and not what you want

it to be, and you took people the same way.  That original state free

from judgement when we were free to observe "Idependent Reality"

instead of the frustrated, diasapointed, hurt angry dependent reality

of the Adult world. So to return to that free state is a return to

being the kid whos spacing out watching

>  light reflect off of dust particles while listening to Jeff's Joe

cocker albums on the head phones. In the next room Jeff scrapes

something of an alum cover, and in the KItchen my moms burning down

the house trying to make home made doughnuts.

>   The dependent reality is the one of cause and effect. He said she

said. That make me so made. She made me do this and all the other

Attachements to things and Stuff of this world as if they realy had

value.  A car is a car a dollar is a dollar, render onto Ceasar and

all that stuff.   The return to BE-ING is the basis of my sensual and

earthy philosphy.  It is about the here and now the just being

enjoying the experience of Family and experiencing relationships and

my relationship with the world around me as it is. For me exploration

is also a big part of experiencing the world, the joy of discovery.

An example of attachments and suffering would be to save hundreds or

thousands of dollars for your dream vacation....lets say to

Thailand.  you've done your research and planned every little detail

down to the minute.  A beach bungalo so on and so forth.....When the

vacationer arrives he realizes it nothing like what he imagined.

Now he is about to experience the worst

>  disaster of his life setting him back thousands of dollars and

hard work for nothing! or... he is about to embark on the most life

altering adventure in his life!

>   Just a few afternoon rambles

>   I didnt hit spell check, because the kids want tuna sandwiches.

>

>

>

>

> Jeff Belyea <jeff@...> wrote:

>           The practical application of meditation

> for stress and as part of goal achievement

> strategies - ranging from quiting smoking to

> supremely practical goal of transcendence

> is well known, and has been part of many

> meditation teachings (including my own)

> for....ever.

>

> www.mindgoal.com/mysticheart.html

>

> Your mind may have hit a pothole at

> reading the words practical and

> transcendence in the same sentence...

> but all goals have the very same

> core: happiness and peace of mind.

>

> These are success at its core, regardless

> of the "vehicles" (new house, car, career,

> relationship, fitness,...) viewed as

> necessary for success.

>

> Transcendence, therefore, is the

> supremely practical goal, because

> transcendence brings happiness and

> peace of mind beyond what any of the

> temporary thrill ofmaterial vehicles

> can bring.

>

> Transcendent is a return

> to the childlike, goal free, worry

> free, sheer joy that is our birthright -

> and which we forfeited and forgot through

> coercian by our early teachers,

> who forced social order on us, and

> robbed us of our true identity

> and our true home.

>

> Meditation can return us to our

> true home. However, the phrase true home

> is meaningless, in its "true" sense,

> unless the return has been experienced.

>

> If it hasn't, we settle for much less

> - a secondary existence and limited

> perspective that we naively mistate

> for our true existence.

>

> When the earthy, solid, practical

> philosophies of say, a Sean Trembley,

> and Zen teachings of chop wood, carry

> water before and after transcendence

> are presented, they are unassailably

> worthwhile: eat good food, raise happy

> kids, come in out of the rain...

>

> But...

>

> These are aspects of secondary consciousness

> and limited intrepretations, limited to the

> sensual and emotional apparatus that we have

> "inherited" as home on this earthly plane.

>

> And...these are adopted reflections

> that satisfy the "I" of the ego, the

> I that does not recognize (has forgotten)

> the freedom from goals and need for

> sensual delights (including food and

> dry clothes) in order to shine. (That

> is not to say that sensual delights

> and dry clothes are not to be enjoyed.

> It is just a matter of recognized

> their impermanence, and the impermanence

> of the joy they bring.

>

> Transcendence, on the other hand,

> is primary existence, a timeless

> and blissful level of consciousness

> that has nothing to do with the mortal

> life or sensory apparatus. The secondary

> existence is blended into the transcendent

> level of consciousness, but it is

> recognized as secondary, and allows

> for absolute freedom from self-consciousness

> in favor of blissful Self consciousness.

>

> Meditation can open the door to this

> new (renewed) understanding.

>

> Just a midnight ramble.

>

> Jeff

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Got a little couch potato?

> Check out fun summer activities for kids.

>

Sean, I’m afraid I may have confused the issue by mentioning arthritis. The pain that can arise from sitting in meditation can hurt like hell even if there’s no arthritis. 

For example, Grace, who posted the story of her trip from retreat zafu to ER gurney didn’t mention any underlying pain issues.  She hyperventilated in an effort to stay in her position & passed out.  She says she is confused because she knows that one is counselled to observe the pain & fully realize its temporary nature.  She’d been doing just that & had been watching ebb & flow over longer & longer periods of time.  She was able to sit motionless for 2 hours (no mean feat) during that retreat before she fainted.  So now, she’s (to my way of thinking, at least) understandably confused as to the “right” thing to have done.  Jon Kabat-Zinn says meditators with long experience can & do sit motionless for an entire day in excruciating pain.  I read that some years ago just when I was taking up meditaion.  At the time, I thought the rest of his book (“Full Catastrophe Living”, probably) made sense to me, but I drew the line at sitting in agony – it seemed perverse.  Later, I began to understand (at least in theory) the importance of realizing that everything is temporary & of observing the arising & subsiding.  Still … 

The more I think about this issue, the less I understand it. 
The mention of tuna sandwiches made me want one too, so that’s what I’m doing next.

Aideen

---

From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sean tremblay
Sent: July 21, 2007 9:08 AM
To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Applied Meditation and into The Mystic

Jeff,  I think a few need to respond.  What I have been reading recently in reference to pain and meditation Does not seem to adiquitly adress Aideen's problem.  The article sent refers to the "Normal" and "Minor" aches and pains assciated with sitting in Zazen for a determinate amount of time, or on a bus or an airport bench for that matter. It does not adress pain indications of serious problems and what Aideen was describing was an indication that something may be Biologically wrong, Saint Hildigard, Mary Baker Eddy the Buddha and many others have discussed the inner roots of disease and injury, but the injury must be treated as well as the cause of it in the physical as well as the metaphysical …

Just a few afternoon rambles

I didnt hit spell check, because the kids want tuna sandwiches.

Jeff Belyea <jeff@mindgoal.com> wrote:

The practical application of meditation
for stress and as part of goal achievement
strategies - ranging from quiting smoking to
supremely practical goal of transcendence
is well known, and has been part of many
meditation teachings (including my own)
for....ever.

www.mindgoal.com/mysticheart.html

Your mind may have hit a pothole at
reading the words practical and
transcendence in the same sentence...
but all goals have the very same
core: happiness and peace of mind.

These are success at its core, regardless
of the "vehicles" (new house, car, career,
relationship, fitness,...) viewed as
necessary for success.

Transcendence, therefore, is the
supremely practical goal, because
transcendence brings happiness and
peace of mind beyond what any of the
temporary thrill ofmaterial vehicles
can bring.

Transcendent is a return
to the childlike, goal free, worry
free, sheer joy that is our birthright -
and which we forfeited and forgot through
coercian by our early teachers,
who forced social order on us, and
robbed us of our true identity
and our true home.

Meditation can return us to our
true home. However, the phrase true home
is meaningless, in its "true" sense,
unless the return has been experienced.

If it hasn't, we settle for much less
- a secondary existence and limited
perspective that we naively mistate
for our true existence.

When the earthy, solid, practical
philosophies of say, a Sean Trembley,
and Zen teachings of chop wood, carry
water before and after transcendence
are presented, they are unassailably
worthwhile: eat good food, raise happy
kids, come in out of the rain...

But...

These are aspects of secondary consciousness
and limited intrepretations, limited to the
sensual and emotional apparatus that we have
"inherited" as home on this earthly plane.

And...these are adopted reflections
that satisfy the "I" of the ego, the
I that does not recognize (has forgotten)
the freedom from goals and need for
sensual delights (including food and
dry clothes) in order to shine. (That
is not to say that sensual delights
and dry clothes are not to be enjoyed.
It is just a matter of recognized
their impermanence, and the impermanence
of the joy they bring.

Transcendence, on the other hand,
is primary existence, a timeless
and blissful level of consciousness
that has nothing to do with the mortal
life or sensory apparatus. The secondary
existence is blended into the transcendent
level of consciousness, but it is
recognized as secondary, and allows
for absolute freedom from self-consciousness
in favor of blissful Self consciousness.

Meditation can open the door to this
new (renewed) understanding.

Just a midnight ramble.

Jeff

 

---

Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.

The practical application of meditation
for stress and as part of goal achievement
strategies - ranging from quiting smoking to
supremely practical goal of transcendence
is well known, and has been part of many
meditation teachings (including my own)
for....ever.

www.mindgoal.com/mysticheart.html

Your mind may have hit a pothole at
reading the words practical and
transcendence in the same sentence...
but all goals have the very same
core: happiness and peace of mind.

These are success at its core, regardless
of the "vehicles" (new house, car, career,
relationship, fitness,...) viewed as
necessary for success.

Transcendence, therefore, is the
supremely practical goal, because
transcendence brings happiness and
peace of mind beyond what any of the
temporary thrill ofmaterial vehicles
can bring.

Transcendent is a return
to the childlike, goal free, worry
free, sheer joy that is our birthright -
and which we forfeited and forgot through
coercian by our early teachers,
who forced social order on us, and
robbed us of our true identity
and our true home.

Meditation can return us to our
true home. However, the phrase true home
is meaningless, in its "true" sense,
unless the return has been experienced.

If it hasn't, we settle for much less
- a secondary existence and limited
perspective that we naively mistate
for our true existence.

When the earthy, solid, practical
philosophies of say, a Sean Trembley,
and Zen teachings of chop wood, carry
water before and after transcendence
are presented, they are unassailably
worthwhile: eat good food, raise happy
kids, come in out of the rain...

But...

These are aspects of secondary consciousness
and limited intrepretations, limited to the
sensual and emotional apparatus that we have
"inherited" as home on this earthly plane.

And...these are adopted reflections
that satisfy the "I" of the ego, the
I that does not recognize (has forgotten)
the freedom from goals and need for
sensual delights (including food and
dry clothes) in order to shine. (That
is not to say that sensual delights
and dry clothes are not to be enjoyed.
It is just a matter of recognized
their impermanence, and the impermanence
of the joy they bring.

Transcendence, on the other hand,
is primary existence, a timeless
and blissful level of consciousness
that has nothing to do with the mortal
life or sensory apparatus. The secondary
existence is blended into the transcendent
level of consciousness, but it is
recognized as secondary, and allows
for absolute freedom from self-consciousness
in favor of blissful Self consciousness.

Meditation can open the door to this
new (renewed) understanding.

Just a midnight ramble.

Jeff

The practical application of meditation

for stress and as part of goal achievement

strategies  - ranging from quiting smoking to

supremely practical goal of transcendence

is well known, and has been part of many

meditation teachings (including my own)

for....ever.



www.mindgoal.com/mysticheart.html



Your mind may have hit a pothole at

reading the words practical and

transcendence in the same sentence...

but all goals have the very same

core: happiness and peace of mind.



These are success at its core, regardless

of the "vehicles" (new house, car, career,

relationship, fitness,...) viewed as

necessary for success.



Transcendence, therefore, is the

supremely practical goal, because

transcendence brings happiness and

peace of mind beyond what any of the

temporary thrill ofmaterial vehicles

can bring.



Transcendent is a return

to the childlike, goal free, worry

free, sheer joy that is our birthright -

and which we forfeited and forgot through

coercian by our early teachers,

who forced social order on us, and

robbed us of our true identity

and our true home.



Meditation can return us to our

true home. However, the phrase true home

is meaningless, in its "true" sense,

unless the return has been experienced.



If it hasn't, we settle for much less

- a secondary existence and limited

perspective that we naively mistate

for our true existence.



When the earthy, solid, practical

philosophies of say, a Sean Trembley,

and Zen teachings of chop wood, carry

water before and after transcendence

are presented, they are unassailably

worthwhile: eat good food, raise happy

kids, come in out of the rain...



But...



These are aspects of secondary consciousness

and limited intrepretations, limited to the

sensual and emotional apparatus that we have

"inherited" as home on this earthly plane.



And...these are adopted reflections

that satisfy the "I" of the ego, the

I that does not recognize (has forgotten)

the freedom from goals and need for

sensual delights (including food and

dry clothes) in order to shine. (That

is not to say that sensual delights

and dry clothes are not to be enjoyed.

It is just a matter of recognized

their impermanence, and the impermanence

of the joy they bring.



Transcendence, on the other hand,

is primary existence, a timeless

and blissful level of consciousness

that has nothing to do with the mortal

life or sensory apparatus. The secondary

existence is blended into the transcendent

level of consciousness, but it is

recognized as secondary, and allows

for absolute freedom from self-consciousness

in favor of blissful Self consciousness.



Meditation can open the door to this

new (renewed) understanding.



Just a midnight ramble.



Jeff