Dear reader,

For your information, a new edition of "The heathen in his blindness... Asia,
the West,
and the dynamic of religion" by S.N. Balagangadhara is available from Manohar
Books.

Apologies for the blunt adverstising.

Kind regards,

Jeroen



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--- poser?  {hopefully a mistype}   both u and medit8tion are
obviously intelligent, im just not familiar with the language. when i
read krishnamurti, i have to go REEEEAAL SLOOOOW to let some of it
sink in. my poor feeble mind cant keep up. haha  thanks for the
replies, but u did make me go get the dictionary a few times!

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "dabrown1973"
<daleryukyu@p...> wrote:
>
> hi ya all  first of all, im glad their is a website devoted to one of
> the most important things in life to me. i have experimented with a
> variety of meditation techniques, the ones i have focused on
> primarily is "feeling the body" and awareness of body.my first few
> months was devoted to feeling the breath enter and leave, and it was
> what got me hooked, but i found i couldnt do this while engaged in
> other activities, and since i beleive its important to meditate
> throughout the day, rather than just 20 minutes in the morning, i
> have since moved on. for some reason, when i feel the body throughout
> the day, i get a dull headache right where the "3rd eye" is located.
> anybody have any info on that? secondly,i love krishnamurtis
> teaching, as well as eckhart tolle, and have found both have been
> beneficial. there are areas where their teaching conflict, and i
> wondered if anybody with more clarity would want to respond on it.
> both have written about watching your thoughts, being aware of your
> reactions, however, tolle, as well as many others, states that when
> you watch a thought, you are aware of your thought being there, and
> here you are watching it(you are separate from your thought) but
> krishnamurti states that division is the problem, that you are your
> thoughts. anybody have any ideas, opinions on this?

Great question! I think the answer is that you are
looking at 2 different types of experiences. Here's
an excellent article by the great Swami Sivananda that
deals perfectly with these two perspectives as well
as the other states that all are part of the divine
Raja Yoga Samadhi. It is fairly long, but well worth
the reading time as it also offers an opportunity
to better understand some of the Sanskrit termonology
that often is used to discuss these higher realms of
awareness. Enjoy!..........

Raja Yoga Samadhi

By
Sri Swami Sivananda

According to Raja Yoga, Samadhi is of two kinds, viz., Samprajnata and
Asamprajnata. In the former, the seeds of Samskaras are not destroyed.
In the latter, the Samskaras are fried or annihilated in toto. That is
the reason why the former is called Sabija Samadhi (with seeds) and
the latter as Nirbija Samadhi (without seeds or Samskaras).
Samprajnata Samadhi leads to Asamprajnata Samadhi.

The Samprajnata Samadhi is also known by the name Savikalpa Samadhi or
Sabija Samadhi. This Samadhi brings perfect knowledge of the object of
meditation. The mind continuously and to the exclusion of all other
objects assumes the nature and becomes one with the object of its
contemplation. The Yogi attains all the powers of controlling the
nature in this Samadhi.

The Samprajnata Samadhi is of four kinds, viz., Savitarka, Savichara,
Sananda and Asmita Samadhi. All these Samadhis have something to
grasp. There is Alambana or argumentation or questioning. They give
intensive joy but they are not the best and finest forms of Samadhi.
They cover the gross or the subtle elements of nature and the organs
of sense. They give you the direct knowledge of the elements, objects
and instruments of knowledge and some freedom.

These stages are in the form of steps of an ascending staircase. To
begin with, meditation should be done on a gross form. When you
advance in this meditation, you can take to abstract meditation, or
meditation on subtle things or ideas. Mind should be gradually
disciplined and trained in meditation. It cannot all at once enter
into the highest Asamprajnata Samadhi or that which constitutes the
highest subtle essence. That is the reason why Patanjali Maharshi has
prescribed the practice of various kinds of lower Samadhis. When the
mind is extremely attached to gross objects, it is not possible to fix
it on subtle objects all at once. There must be gradual ascent in the
ladder of Yoga. You should place your footstep cautiously in each rung
of the ladder. You should pass through successive stages before you
attain the highest Asamprajnata or Nirvikalpa Samadhi. But
Yoga-Bhrashtas who have passed through the lower stages in their
previous birth can attain to the highest stage at the very outset
through the grace of the Lord. If the Yogic student had reached the
higher stage, he need not revert to the lower stages.

All the forms of Samprajnata Samadhi are Salambana Yoga (with support)
and Sabija Yoga (with seed of Samskara). The Yogins enjoy a form of
freedom. Dharma Megha in Raja Yoga means "the cloud of virtue". Just
as clouds shower rain, so also this Dharma Megha Samadhi showers on
the Yogins omniscience and all sorts of Siddhis or powers. The Yogi
enjoys a form of freedom. Therefore, this Samadhi is called the
Showerer or cloud (Megha) of virtue (Dharma). The Yogi enjoys expanded
vision of God.

Ritambhara, Prajnaloka, Prasannavahita are the three stages or
Bhumikas of Samprajnata Samadhi. In Ritambhara the content of the
mental Vritti is Satchidananda. There is still a separate knower. You
get Yathartha Jnana or real wisdom. In the second, every kind of
Avarana (veiling) is removed. The third state is the state of peace in
which the mind is destitute of all mental modifications. The knowledge
that you get from testimony and inference is above objects of the
world; but the knowledge that you obtain from Samadhi is Divine
Knowledge. It is super-sensual, intuitive knowledge where reason,
inference and testimony cannot go.

Savitarka and Nirvitarka Samadhis

Savitarka Samadhi is Samadhi with reasoning. It is a superficial
attempt of the mind to grasp any object. In this Samadhi, Sabda
(sound), Artha (meaning), Jnana (knowledge) are mixed up.

The. aspirant can meditate on the body of Virat or Lord Vishnu with
four hands or Lord Krishna with flute in hand or any ordinary object.
He will obtain the direct perception of all the peculiar features, the
excellences (Gunas) and defects (Doshas) of the object of meditation.
He will have complete knowledge of the object. He will be endowed with
all the features of the object unheard of and unthought of. He will
obtain these through Savitarka Samadhi. The Yogic student meditates on
the object again and again by isolating it from other objects.

You can meditate on the gross elements also. You will gain power over
them through intense meditation. The elements will reveal to you their
truths.

Just as the new archer first aims at big object only and then at
smaller ones gradually, so also the beginner in Yoga concentrates on
the gross objects such as the five Maha Bhutas, Lord Hari with four
hands, and then on subtle ones. In this manner the grasp of the
objects by the mind becomes subtle. A Yogi directly perceives the real
body of the Lord Vishnu as He lives in Vaikuntha, by the force of his
meditation although he remains at a great distance from the Lord.

In Savitarka Samadhi concentration is practised on gross objects and
their nature in relation to time and space. This is a gross form of
Samadhi. When the Yogi meditates on the elements as they are by taking
them out of time and space, then it is called Nirvitarka Samadhi
without questioning or reasoning or argumentation. This is a subtle
form of Samadhi.

In Savitarka there is Vikalpa or fanciful notion of word (Sabda),
object (Artha) and idea (Jneya). There is no such notion in Nirvitarka
Samadhi. There are three factors in the comprehension of a word, e.g.,
cow—(1) cow, the word, (2) cow, the object, (3) cow, the idea in the
mind. When the meditator imagines these three to be one and the same,
it is an instance of Vikalpa or fanciful notion of the word, object
and idea.

Savichara and Nirvichara Samadhis

If you meditate on the subtle Tanmatras (subtle elements of matter)
and their nature in relation to time and space, it is Savichara
Samadhi with deliberation or discrimination. This is Sukshma or
subtle. This is subtler than Savitarka and Nirvitarka Samadhis.
Tanmatras are the root-elements or Sukshma Bhutas. The five gross
elements are derived from the Tanmatras through the process of
quintuplication or mixing. Meditation goes a step higher in this
Samadhi than in the previous one. The Yogi will get knowledge of the
Tanmatras. He will obtain control over the Tanmatras. He will get the
direct perception of the various subtle forms of the object
culminating in primordial matter or Mula Prakriti.

The word `subtle' indicates cause in general. It stands for all such
causal principles as the Tanmatras or the primary elements egoism or
Ahankara, Mahat Tattva or intellect and Prakriti.

There is mysterious power, Achintya Sakti, in meditation. Although
ordinary meditation is possible only in ways already heard and thought
of, yet even such things as have not been heard or thought of may be
directly cognised by the force of meditation.

There is no difference between the cause and products. All gross
objects are the products of the twenty-six principles. They are really
of the same nature as that of twenty-six principles.

If you meditate on the subtle Tanmatras by taking them out of time and
space by thinking as they are, it will constitute Nirvichara Samadhi
without deliberation or discrimination. As there is pure Sattva only
in the mind owing to the eradication of Rajas and Tamas the Yogi
enjoys internal peace or contentment (Adhyatmic Prasada) and
subjective luminosity. The mind is very steady.

Sananda Samadhi or the Blissful Samadhi

Now we proceed to describe the joyful Samadhi. This is joyous Samadhi
and it gives intense joy. In this Samadhi the gross and the five
element's are given up. The Yogi meditates on the Sattvic mind itself.
He thinks of the mind which is devoid of Rajas and Tamas. There arises
in the Yogi a peculiar perception in the form of intense joy through
this type of Samadhi.

Asmita Samadhi

In this Samadhi the mind is the object of meditation. It bestows the
knowledge of the subject of all experiences. The Self knows the Self.
The Sattvic state of the ego only remains. The Yogi can think himself
now as without his gross body. He feels that he has a fine body. This
Samadhi takes the Yogi to the root of experiences and shows the way to
freedom.

The Yogi feels "I am (Asmi) other than the body". He experiences that
the gross, subtle and joyous Samadhis are not the highest Samadhis. He
finds defects in them also and gets disgusted with them. He proceeds
further and practises Asmita Samadhi. He experiences
Self-consciousness (Asmita). He experiences a feeling of `enough' and
develops dispassion in its highest form (Para Vairagya). This finally
leads to the development of Asamprajnata Samadhi.

Asamprajnata Samadhi or Nirbija or Nirbikalpa Samadhi

This is the highest form of Samadhi. This comes after Viveka-khyati or
the final discrimination between Prakriti and Purusha. All the seeds
or impressions are burnt by the fire of knowledge. This Samadhi brings
Kaivalya or Absolute Independence. This is the culmination or climax
of Yoga, or final Prasankhyana which bestows the supreme, undying
peace or knowledge. The Yogi enjoys the transcendental glories of the
Self and has perfect freedom from the mental life. The sense of time
is replaced by a sense of Eternity.

In this Samadhi, there is neither Triputi nor Alambana. The Samskaras
are fried in toto. This Samadhi alone can destroy birth end death and
bring in highest knowledge and bliss.

When you get full success or perfection (Siddhi) in Raja yoga by
entering into Asamprajnata Samadhi (Nirvikalpa State), all the
Samskaras and Vasanas which bring on rebirths are totally fried up.
All Vrittis or mental modifications that arise form the mind-lake come
under restraint. The five afflictions, viz., Avidya (ignorance),
Asmita (egoism), Raga-dvesha (love and hatred) and Abhinivesha
(clinging to life) are destroyed and the bonds of Karma are
annihilated. This Samadhi brings on highest good (Nihsreyasa) and
exaltation (Abhyudaya). It gives Moksha (deliverance form the wheel of
births and deaths). With the advent of the knowledge of the Self,
ignorance vanishes. With the disappearance of the root-cause, viz.,
ignorance, egoism, etc., also disappear.

In the Asamprajnata Samadhi, all the modifications of the mind are
completely restrained. All the residual Samskaras are totally fried
up. This is the highest Samadhi of Raja yoga. This is also known as
Nirbija Samadhi (without seeds) and Nirvikalpa Samadhi.

In this Samadhi, the Yogi sees without eyes, tastes without tongue,
hears without ears, smells without nose and touches without skin. His
Sankalpas can work miracles. He simply wills and everything comes into
Being. This state is described in Taittariya Aranyaka—I-ii-5: "The
blind man pierced the pearl, the fingerless put a thread into it; the
neckless wore it and the touchless praised it."

Eventually, the Purusha realises His own native state of Divine glory,
Isolation or absolute Independence (Kaivalya). He has completely
disconnected himself from the Prakriti and its effects. He feels his
absolute freedom and attains Kaivalya, the highest goal of Raja Yoga.
All Klesha Karmas are destroyed now. The Gunas having fulfilled their
objects of Bhoga and Apavarga now entirely cease to act. He has
simultaneous knowledge now. The past and the future are blended into
the present. Everything is "Now". Everything is "Here". He has
transcended time and space. The sum-total of all knowledge of the
three worlds, of all secular sciences is nothing but mere husk when
compared to the Infinite knowledge of a Yogi who has attained
Kaivalya. Glory, glory to such exalted Yogins!

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Observing the process of natural breathing will lead us to enter into a thoughtless state or alfa state during which we feel a state of trance. In this condition the flow of cosmic energy increases at an increased rate. In this condition we get visualization of many things. At initial stages we can not remember all the visions. But soon we learn to recollect every thing. Hence observing the breath isw only to enter ourselves into the next stage where the breathing becomes narrow. Suppose if one gets thoughts again after some time, then one has to observe the breath to enter into the alfa stage.

Thanks.

Ganesh Babu.

medit8ionsociety <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

When you meditate should you concentrate on your breathing or should
you do visulization?  What is the difference?
L and J

---

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Reply, when you do meditation, get asort of tranquility during that time we get visualization. Actually speaking observing the breath is a process to enter into alfa state. As once we are in that state one will be not observing  the breath as it becomes very short and some times even no breathing state which occur without our conscious.Thanks, Ganesh

ganeshbabu vempati <vempatig2003@...> wrote:

Observing the process of natural breathing will lead us to enter into a thoughtless state or alfa state during which we feel a state of trance. In this condition the flow of cosmic energy increases at an increased rate. In this condition we get visualization of many things. At initial stages we can not remember all the visions. But soon we learn to recollect every thing. Hence observing the breath isw only to enter ourselves into the next stage where the breathing becomes narrow. Suppose if one gets thoughts again after some time, then one has to observe the breath to enter into the alfa stage.

Thanks.

Ganesh Babu.

medit8ionsociety <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

When you meditate should you concentrate on your breathing or should
you do visulization?  What is the difference?
L and J

---

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---

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'

Hello everyone,

I took a training course last week which included the Myers-Briggs
personality type profile. I found that I was strongly introvert -
(INTJ). I wondered if this has any relationship to meditation? For
instance, would introvert people be more natural meditators since they
live so much of their lives "within" their minds? Also, would different
approaches to meditation be more suitable for extrovert or introvert
types. For example, my liking of inner sounds meditation seems to suit
my introvert nature.

Any thoughts or comments please.

...Tony

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Osime" <
tony.osime@f...> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I took a training course last week which included the Myers-Briggs
> personality type profile. I found that I was strongly introvert -
> (INTJ). I wondered if this has any relationship to meditation? For
> instance, would introvert people be more natural meditators since they
> live so much of their lives "within" their minds? Also, would different
> approaches to meditation be more suitable for extrovert or introvert
> types. For example, my liking of inner sounds meditation seems to suit
> my introvert nature.
>
> Any thoughts or comments please.
>
> ...Tony

It appears to me that it would be wonderful if you stay within yourself and not
think about what would be better for others. If sound meditation is good for
you,
then stay with it. Wandering around so many different technics is not good for
advancing. And a good way to stay within is to stay in your Self, not in your
thoughts. Your true nature is that of the Self, not the personality.

-------------------
It appears to me that it would be wonderful if you stay within yourself
and not
think about what would be better for others. If sound meditation is good
for you,
then stay with it. Wandering around so many different technics is not
good for
advancing. And a good way to stay within is to stay in your Self, not in
your
thoughts. Your true nature is that of the Self, not the personality.
-------------------
Thanks (mlcanow?) for this very profound comment. What you say makes
sense - even to my mind! My mind now asks, what is the role of thought?
How does it relate to the Self?

...Tony






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links




------------------------------------------------------------------------

hey Tony,

from my p.o.v. people answer questions in the web

similiar to lessons and training courses, offered

everywhere: an approach ''seekers-in-mind'' to

''learn-meditation-from-mind'' - sorry: so the results.

sorry: these results are in most cases opposite

to the expectations - therefore the

customers only dare to share,

what fits to their expectations.

n0by

sorry: so the results

p.s.: understanding starts with a smile

- not a slime, sorry....

  Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:20:49 +0100
   From: "Tony Osime" <tony.osime@...>
Subject: Introvert v extrovert meditators

Hello everyone,

I took a training course last week which included the Myers-Briggs
personality type profile. I found that I was strongly introvert -
(INTJ). I wondered if this has any relationship to meditation? For
instance, would introvert people be more natural meditators since they
live so much of their lives "within" their minds? Also, would different
approaches to meditation be more suitable for extrovert or introvert
types. For example, my liking of inner sounds meditation seems to suit
my introvert nature.

Any thoughts or comments please.

...Tony

 

http://n0by.de/2/CyberChurch2005.htm

Hello everyone,

I took a training course last week which included the Myers-Briggs
personality type profile. I found that I was strongly introvert -
(INTJ). I wondered if this has any relationship to meditation? For
instance, would introvert people be more natural meditators since they
live so much of their lives "within" their minds? Also, would different
approaches to meditation be more suitable for extrovert or introvert
types. For example, my liking of inner sounds meditation seems to suit
my introvert nature.

Any thoughts or comments please.

...Tony

Hi Jason,

Thanks for your very wise words. I was particularly intrigued by your
statement:

"...dissolve any hindrance to self by exposing the ways of the
reflective other..."

Would this refer to exposing the ways of "thought and thinking"? What I
find so amazing is regarding my thinking mind is a hindrance to "Self".
It is my thinking mind I am using to write this? Or, who is writing
these words? If I suspended my thinking would my words be different?

...I wanted to try writing without my thinking mind but nothing happened
- or did it?

Mmmm...I have to "not" think about that!

...Tony

You wrote ---------------------------
Introvert as a description isn't very helpful for meditation. If there
were a majority of meditators that took a similar test they would most
likely be described in the same manner.

Meditation isn't a group activity and for the entirety of practice, the
focus is self-situated, as-if there are those that are not self
oriented, even in group activities.

If we meditate to better relate to others or the world at large then it
remains a self focus in reflection.To be a healthy self or learn of love
or anger or any assorted trait, all are self
oriented activities, which benifits are seen through
the eyes of the other to formulate those traits
for themselves.

The encompassing qualifier for meditation can be said to
dissolve any hindrance to self by exposing the ways of
the reflective other, without introversed or extroverted
focus.

Hi Tony,

It means the dissection of reality, it means cutting to the quick
of how self is defined, as well as, what one takes as not-self. It's
a disposition of bounderies between what is sensed and that which
senses.

It means, if you know words or any other object, like thought,
it's as the reflection of the interpersonal in relation to the
extropersonal contrast of self.

Irregardless of mind or the thinker of thoughts, the sensor
is the vanishing point that does not need to maintain qualities
of it's own, like a silent mind or a healthy body. Nor does it get to
keep those qualities for itself, it wouldn't want to since everything
thing that defines it's presence, including it's desire, is the
seperation
of the reflection of self to other.

The amazment of the thinking mind get's resolved. It is
clear that there is no permanence to it or any other object that
it finds to be always the case, or in which holds a property like
truth, there is dissolution of self as taken to be any such property.

-Peace and Love

--- Tony Osime <tony.osime@...> wrote:

> Hi Jason,
>
> Thanks for your very wise words. I was particularly intrigued by
> your
> statement:
>
> "...dissolve any hindrance to self by exposing the ways of the
> reflective other..."
>
> Would this refer to exposing the ways of "thought and thinking"?
> What I
> find so amazing is regarding my thinking mind is a hindrance to
> "Self".
> It is my thinking mind I am using to write this? Or, who is writing
> these words? If I suspended my thinking would my words be
> different?
>
> ...I wanted to try writing without my thinking mind but nothing
> happened
> - or did it?
>
> Mmmm...I have to "not" think about that!
>
> ...Tony
>
> You wrote ---------------------------
> Introvert as a description isn't very helpful for meditation. If
> there
> were a majority of meditators that took a similar test they would
> most
> likely be described in the same manner.
>
> Meditation isn't a group activity and for the entirety of practice,
> the
> focus is self-situated, as-if there are those that are not self
> oriented, even in group activities.
>
> If we meditate to better relate to others or the world at large
> then it
> remains a self focus in reflection.To be a healthy self or learn of
> love
> or anger or any assorted trait, all are self
> oriented activities, which benifits are seen through
> the eyes of the other to formulate those traits
> for themselves.
>
> The encompassing qualifier for meditation can be said to
> dissolve any hindrance to self by exposing the ways of
> the reflective other, without introversed or extroverted
> focus.
>
>
>




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By a round about route, my original post led me to this post in another
group. There is a tenuous but interesting link to my original post, so I
thought it might make interesting reading here. I have edited it to make
it more readable. My apologies for it being a very long post!

From: "adithya_comming" <adithya_comming@...>
Subject: Enlightenment : end of suffering?

Suffering is a 'potential' in the body-mind. Pain is a 'possibility',
just like mental conflict is, depression is, fear is, hatred is,
jealousy is, and greed is. But, just because it is 'possible' to suffer,
doesn't mean you have to! Just because you have a match box or a gun in
your house, doesn't mean you have to burn your house or kill someone. To
"Not" burn and kill, it is often "Not" necessary to get rid of fire and
killing 'potential'. Simple understanding and consciousness might be
enough.

We already know that not everybody suffers from same amount of jealousy,
greed, depression or ...mental pain. We also know that not everybody
shows the same fear, anger, jealousy, 'unconsciousness', 'mental pain',
'mental suffering', 'hatred', in response to same or similar events. In
fact, many people have demonstrated to be quite efficient, effective and
productive in dealing with same situations without going trough the same
amount of mental trauma, suffering and pain of ...depression, jealousy,
greed, fear, hatred, anger, conflict that many other people do.
Many are in fact, even able to unlearn the old 'conditioning' and learn
a new attitude to act (or just stay) in the same scenario without
needing to create the same 'mental suffering' or 'mental pain' anymore.
Incredibly, they are often able to do it without losing their ability to
act and respond in any way. In fact, in many cases, their ability to
respond and act increases!

They unlearn the old resistance, conflict and pain producing
conditioning and learn to "SEE" - observe the situation clearly without
much mental labeling. They learn to act out of "Acceptance",
"Consciousness", "Presence" and "Stillness". Not only that, they are
now, able to remain  poised, calm, joyous, happy and free of reactivity
and 'mental conflict' but they do so without losing any ability to act!

Even those who are not attentive, present or conscious see their
suffering disappear completely in "DEEP SLEEP", every Night! Incredibly,
the situation is still exactly the same as it was!  ...just, they are
not present to 'create' the suffering anymore. Their "suffering
producing" facility has been put to rest.
Some people even try to temporarily achieve it chemically by ingesting
...alcohols, drugs etc. Just few drops, a few glands dulled, few signal
sending neuron temporarily dulled and ...phew, no more suffering! Even
though, situation is exactly same.

First peek in enlightenment is somewhat like going into Deep Sleep
state, consciously. You See that all your suffering, pain, conflict
simply doesn't exist! As you start to be more and more conscious and get
more and more in tune with the body, mind and emotions, you literally
see yourself 'producing' pain and suffering! You see a thought and
immediately you feel a signal, twitch, a prick, a pinch, few drop of
burning chemical (hormone) dropping in the blood and, hey, you have
succeeded, you have been able to SUCCESSFULLY create Pain!
Many others, who are not that Conscious know it too.  They try not to
think and talk about things that they 'think' causes them pain. They are
busy totally absorbed playing a sport, listening to great music,
surrounded by great beauty, talking to someone, watching some
entertaining movie and there is NO suffering in those moments! Any time,
they are not 'available' to 'create pain', there is No Pain! Difference
is that in the place of getting into the "root" of the creation of
suffering and understanding it, they merely try to 'escape' facing it.
And, then, come back, and 'start' thinking about those seemingly
'painful' things again and here comes the pain! and it is easy to see,
"WHO" started it and how!
A peek at enlightenment shows the falsity and non-existence of problems,
pain and suffering (among the falsity and non-existence of other
things). It shows the world merely as a play, a drama, a creation of
outgoing energy. It shows that there is no bondage, slavery, or
imprisonment. You create your world, even if, you create it so
unconsciously, so 'automatically' that you don't even realize it. You
create your 'world', bondage, suffering and many other things by going
out. Sometimes through 'desires', sometimes through 'attachment' and
sometimes just as an expression, a flow of radiant happy content energy.

Situations can't by themselves create miseries as can clearly be seen by
deep sleep, no mind, no thought. Even meditating about them doesn't.
But, labeling them as 'bad' gives a signal to the brain, and brain and
body together do what they can do to 'represent' bad. You 'resist', you
divide yourself into two one WHICH IS and the 'other' which is fighting
it.
Enlightenment doesn't terminate the 'suffering creating' abilities. It
shows the un-necessity of them. You see that the "End of Suffering" is
not only possible but that in fact, there is "NO" suffering unless you
make an effort to create it!
Consciously entering this "Land of No Problems" is a radical
realization. For many, it seems like a death as there is NO problematic
'me' that they have always had. For many, it is a great relief, a bliss
beyond bliss and everything else seems very pale and insignificant. They
have tasted freedom, and they are not going to bother to create stories,
no matter what. Even if it meant leaving job, society, home, sitting on
park benches or in caves. Examples include Ramana and Tolle and possibly
many, many more who lived and died in complete oblivion.

For many others, it is 'learning' to live, all over again! They have
been through a constantly tormented existence. Now, thy have tasted the
freedom, bliss, the uncaused happiness. They are still ready to engage
in the world, but not at the cost of losing inherent peace and
stillness! But that requires a whole new learning. For some it takes
years and they call it settling down! Essentially, almost the entire
conditioning of the mind, possibly even the circuitry of brain needs to
be reworked, rewired to act, but, free of pain.

But, there are also others who fall out. They get a peek and then come
back, thinking, oh, now I am realized, enlightened, awakened, all done,
all over nothing more... But, remember, bondage creating circuitry and
conditioning is sill very much in place ...Some turn back thinking that
the 'peek' has already destroyed it and it can't come back ...others
come back thinking, ...there is no other possibility. Some of them even
start blaming Buddha and Ramana and start calling them fake, misleading
as in end of suffering, end of conditioning, ...or 're-conditioning' is
Not Possible. However ...they have not been conscious, attentive and
present enough to let body-mind learn to operate in peace and harmony.
Further, they are not even thinking logically. You create suffering
...you do NOT [un?]create Suffering.

What can be Simpler...? Initially, your mind might still work on the
same patterns. You are conscious, so you catch it and bring it back.
Mind learns, as the de-conditioning starts. It might take some time, it
might require sacrifices. And, who can say that Ramana, Tolle, Buddha
and many other 'unknowns' made no sacrifices. Sacrifices that was
insignificant, trivial to them because of the bliss of unconditional
freedom but still sacrifices from the external 'worldly' perspective.

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Osime"
<tony.osime@f...> wrote:
> By a round about route, my original post led me to this post in
another
> group. There is a tenuous but interesting link to my original post,
so I
> thought it might make interesting reading here. I have edited it to
make
> it more readable. My apologies for it being a very long post!
>
> From: "adithya_comming" <adithya_comming@y...>
> Subject: Enlightenment : end of suffering?

snip

What a small universe it is. Here's somthing I received today that
deals with the same concepts, only as told by someone widely
acknowledged to be one of the most enlightened beings on the planet:

Swami Chidananda on Self-Realisation
Kind courtesy of "Tapovan Prasad." This is an interview with our Most
Revered President Swamiji Maharaj, published in two parts in November
and December, 2003.

"Hey, I'm in Nirvana!" We all talk like this when we feel good. But
what is it like to actually attain Nirvana, otherwise known as moksha
or Self-realisation? How does the world appear to such an exalted
human being? Does one acquire supernatural powers?

There are few people in India more qualified to answer such questions
than SWAMI CHIDANANDA, the President of the Divine Life Society and
the successor of the illustrious Swami Sivananda. Swami Chidananda is
a soft-spoken, kindly man with sparkling eyes. He is deeply revered
by hundreds of thousands of people in India and around the world, who
recognise his saintliness, selfless service and great humility.

On March 25, 2000, Jujhar Singh met this great saint at `Guru Niwas'
in Rishikesh for a two-hour interview on the theme of Self-
realisation. Parts of the interview were published in The Times of
India and in First City magazine earlier this year.

This is the first part of the interview. The second part will be
published next month.

Q. Vedanta philosophy clearly states that the goal of life is to
attain the state of Self-realisation. What is this state and why is
this the goal of life?

The Vedic rishis found that everything in the world that blooms is
also subject to ultimate decay and dissolution. So they wondered—are
we, human beings, endowed with intelligence just to live a brief life
span and then pass away? They reasoned that life cannot be devoid of
some higher purpose, especially when we are the only species of
living beings who have the ability to think and reflect.

After generations of investigations and after having raised their
consciousness to a very subtle level, they came to the Truth through
direct experience. They declared that beneath this mortal body seen
by the world of man is an immortal spirit unseen by the world of man.
And that Eternal in the non-eternal body, that Imperishable in the
perishable body is actually part of a vast, infinite, eternal,
beginningless, endless, cosmic Spirit. Timeless, beginningless and
endless. It exists. It does not exist as an inert piece. It is
Consciousness. Very much aware that it exists. It knows—I exist. So
it is conscious existence. Existence is Sat, Consciousness is Chit.
So it is Sat Chit.

And in that state of pure Sat chit (Existence-Consciousness) many are
the imperfect, negative experiences man is subject to once he is born
in this mortal world—heat and cold, pleasure and pain, loss and gain,
honour and dishonour. All these things assail man. But all these
travails that man is subject to in this mortal world have no access
to that lofty, sublime, transcendental realm, where abides only peace
and bliss. There is Ananda in that Sat Chit. So it is Sat Chit
Ananda. That is the nearest way you could define or describe that
state of eternal Existence, which is also referred to as Brahman. And
to realise and enter this state is called Self-realisation.

Self-realisation is the goal of life because in that state there are
no sorrows. Once you discover that you are the infinite,
imperishable, eternal reality—you are liberated from all sorrow. In
that state, there is only pure and permanent bliss and joy. Isn't
that the goal of each and every one of us?

Q. But there is joy in this mortal world, too?

Yes, but it is neither pure nor permanent. If a thing is capable of
giving you a pleasurable sensation, that same thing is capable of
giving you a painful sensation also. A man marries—he's is in seventh
heaven. Then if she runs off with someone else, or she dies, then he
plunges into sorrow. This happens because the world is imperfect and
man is imperfect. In one sloka in the Gita, the advice is that
pleasure is the womb of pain. In seeking pleasure, you have already
created your pain.

Thus, pleasure in worldly objects and people is neither pure nor
permanent. If you want real, continuous happiness that does not
change or end—then rise above petty desires and seek the ultimate
Reality. There is supreme Bliss, supreme satisfaction in it—an
indescribable joy and peace.

So make use of this life. It is a golden opportunity. While
fulfilling your duties here, be a seeker of Truth, seeker of Brahman.
Seek Self-realisation. In the word, `Self-realisation', `Self does
not mean your little self. It means your supreme Self. This is why
Self is written with a big `S'. Know your real Self.

Your mortal body is only a vehicle given to you to function upon this
earth. But you are distinct from it. You are an immortal part of
divinity. And when that is realised, one realises that I am aware,
one with that limitless ocean of Sat-chit-ananda. I'm a little wave,
but I'm part of the ocean. There's no difference between the wave and
the ocean. The wave may appear separate because it has a size and a
form. But that is momentary and then it goes back into the ocean.
From the ocean it arises, for a moment it exists, and then it goes
back into the ocean.

Q. How does the world appear to such a Self-realised person?

The world appears just as it is. But he realises that the fabric of
the world is not what he thought it was before. He realises that it
is nothing but the Brahman principle.

Q. And how does his own body and mind appear to him?

Same thing. He sees it as part of Brahman. He is completely objective.

Q. Is Self-realisation within the reach of every human being?

It is birthright of every human being. Because he has been born as a
human being. It is not within the reach of any other creature in
creation. The moment you reach the status of a human being, the goal
of Self-realisation becomes open.

Q. At any given time, roughly how many Self-realised people do you
think there are in the world?

It's impossible to say.

Q. Roughly?

(Laughs) You may be a realised person, I do not know—because they
don't grow horns and spread wings! Or they don't come down and
say: "Oyee, I'm a realised person. .....!"

Q. But what would you estimate? Would they be in three figures or
four figures or five figures.....?

You see, three figures could be 999! (Laughs) You see! Similarly. So
they are between three and four figures in the world. And a great
proportion are in India. Doubtless. Because that is the quest of
India.

Q. Would you say that more than half of them are from India?

Yes, yes, yes. No doubt about it. I'll put it that 60% are from
India. This is because people from other cultures don't have this as
their supreme goal.

Q. Since a Self-realised person is one with the Infinite and eternal,
does he have supernatural powers?

You see, from your relative point of view, these powers are something
special, something very fascinating. But from the Self-realised
person's point of view, they mean nothing. They are a natural part of
him. I have got five fingers. I don't crow about it—"I've got five
fingers! I've got five fingers!" These supernatural powers are as
natural to the supreme being as having five fingers.

Theoretically, of course, Self-realised people have all powers. There
is nothing that they cannot do. But they are generally not interested
in doing all these things because they know that the whole world is a
myth, a dream. From myth, they have been awakened. So why would they
be interested in doing anything in a dream world? You see, when a
person has dreamt a number of dreams one night and woken up in the
morning—what value has the dream got for him? Similarly, once the
Self-realised person has woken up to the supreme Reality, this mortal
world is a dream, a myth.

Q. But looking at it from our point of view—if a Self-realised person
has all powers, why can't he use those powers to solve all the
problems in the world?

Why should he solve all the problems in a world that does not exist
in his state of Consciousness?

Q. No, but from the human being's stand point?

But he is in that standpoint. You are referring him to a world to
which he would say where is this world where you want me to solve the
problems?

Okay, if you oblige him to come to your state of consciousness and
ask him this question, he will say that the world is God's creation.
It has been here thousands of years before I came here and he has
been looking after the world in His own way and the world has been
going on. And if I leave the scene tomorrow and go away, the world
will continue to go on. My being there or not being there will not
even be noticed.

See, if somebody gets diarrhoea the doctor says, "I `won't give you
any medicine because some inedible things have gone into your
intestines and so nature is flushing your system clean. So let us not
come in the way of nature. Just eat light things and don't come back
to a normal diet until your system has come back to its normal
state." You see, the point is that you see things in a fragmentary,
segmented way—but He sees the whole thing.

Q. Can a Self-realised person change another person's destiny?

He can mitigate another's destiny. But he will not change it because
that destiny has been ordained by God and the Self-realised person
has no interest in contradicting God. He would rather try to be in
harmony with God.

Q. How does he mitigate another person's destiny? What is this power
to mitigate?

Read the life of Shirdi Sai Baba. He had an ardent devotee who had
completely surrendered at Shirdi Sai Baba's feet. But due to some
past karma, the devotee was destined to be executed by impalement
with a spear-like object. But this man had completely transformed
himself. So one day when this man went into the fields, a very sharp
thorn went very deeply into his foot. He suffered terrible, agonising
pain and became unconscious. Half of the thorn in fact broke inside
and other people had to put a sharp instrument inside to remove the
thorn. The man underwent terrible agony. But by going through this,
he was saved from the impalement that was due to him. His destiny had
been mitigated.

Q. How does one recognise a Self-realised person?

When you are beside a Self-realised person—no matter how bothered,
troubled or worried you are—you will, for the time being, experience
peace. Your mind will be serene and it will be directed towards the
person before whom you are sitting and not towards the other people
who may also be sitting there.

Q. So in general, how do Self-realised people benefit the world?

A lot. They are fragrance where there is bad. Vibrations of goodwill
emanate from them because Self-realised people have nothing in their
heart except that all should be happy, all should be free from
suffering. Day after day, they wish the well-being of all living
creatures. That is the only thing they have in them—they have no
other desire. This thought and this feeling goes out in waves from
them all over the world. And thoughts have power. Evil thoughts sent
to someone can disturb the mind of the person to whom they are sent.
In the same way, thoughts of cosmic love and peace have the effect of
mitigating the sorrow, suffering and negative thought currents in the
world.

Q. There is a stage referred to as the `dark night of the soul',
which a Sadhaka (spiritual seeker) goes through during his inward
journey towards Self-realisation. What is this?

John Bunyan has written a book called "Pilgrim's Progress", where he
traces the seeker's path until he attains God. Along the way, there
is a stage where the seeker falls into the quagmire of despondency.
At another place, he is caught by despair. So he goes through
despondency, despair, doubt and confusion. He feels he won't attain
it at all. He thinks his life has been a waste. St. John of the Cross
has also talked about this stage.

Q. Do most Sadhakas go through this?

Yes. Most people go through this.

Q. And is this despondency spiritually related or can it be to do
with other things in life?

Spiritually. All are connected with spiritual life.

Q. How much before Self-realisation does this happen?

Only when one is mature and advanced in one's Sadhana (spiritual
practice), these things begin to happen. Otherwise a person is not
worthy of going through all these various deep emotions. You don't
know all these things.

Q. When one eventually does attain Self-realisation—can one slip out
of it?

Once you get full Self-realisation, there is no coming out of it. You
will always be in that state. There is no coming in and out.

Q. But isn't there a stage where one slips in and out of that state
until one gets established in it?

There comes a time when the Sadhaka, in a state of very deep,
intense, continuous meditation, gets this Atma jnana (Self-
knowledge). The deep, intense, continuous meditation suddenly stops
and one goes into a stage where there is no more meditation, one just
is in a certain state. He is in Samadhi. The Sadhaka has reached
there by dint of great perseverance and effort, reached this height
of being. But he may not be able to remain in it for a long time.
After sometime, he may come back.

Then starts again. Again he may go into Samadhi—and come back. Then,
from that stage onwards, he is no longer practicing meditation—he's
practising Samadhi. You get the difference? He's practising samadhi.
He's practising to remain continuously abiding in that same state of
Consciousness, into which he is currently going in and coming out.

Eventually, he gets well established in that state. The state becomes
natural to him both during meditation and in the time of normal
activities. It becomes a spontaneous, natural state for him. This is
called Sahaja-samadhi. `Sahaja' means it becomes part of his natural,
effortless, spontaneous being. Until then, he has to keep on trying.
But once this stage is attained, it is Self-realisation.

Q. That is Self-realisation?

That is Self-realisation. No more rebirths after that. No more
slipping in and out of that state.

Q. So that means Self-realisation doesn't happen in one specific
moment?

It can, in some cases. Sometimes people get illumination. Ramana
Maharshi never did any Sadhana. One day suddenly, when he was around
16 or 17 years old, through no effort of his, suddenly he felt that
he was not the body, that he was the deathless Self.

Effort is necessary in the vast amount of cases. But there are a few
such people to whom there has been this spontaneous Self-realisation.

It has been explained that someone could have done all the effort in
his previous life. He was almost ripe. But just before he could
attain Self-realisation, his body's Prarabdha was finished and he
passed away. So when this birth happens, he takes up from where he
left off in the previous life and there you are.

Q. So such a person, in his previous life, was already at a stage
where he was perhaps practising Samadhi and was slipping in and out,
but hadn't quite reached Sahaja-samadhi?

He was almost there. Maybe he was slipping in and out or maybe he was
just about to get into that state for the first time.

Q. In one. of Swami Sivanandaji's books, there is a mention of a void
before Self-realisation. What is this void?

You see, until the point where you attain Self-realisation, there is
still a trace of the human personality—human personality identity
consciousness. One still feels that I am so and so. Even though he
says God, God, God, God—there is also a little bit of I with God.
There is 95% divinity and 5% this I. And this I is a myth. You are
actually a part and parcel of God. You are 100% divine. So this "I"
has to go. As long as it is there, that Consciousness is not complete
and perfect.

Let me give you an analogy. A river flows, flows, flows, flows. At
last, it approaches the sea. And then it enters into the sea. But
even after having entered into the sea, till quite some distance, the
water still tastes sweet. Because the river has not left its river-
ness completely. It still retains its river-ness, although its two
banks are finished. Bank-less, it is already in the sea. But after it
goes further into the sea, a time comes when the water is no longer
sweet. It is the salt water of the sea alone. That stage when the
river is gone, but the vastness of the sea has not yet been attained,
that interim period when it is neither the river nor the sea—that is
the void.

Let me give you another example. You come to a point where there is
nothing but the edge of a precipice and yawning chasm. And the actual
experience is on the other side of the chasm. Unless you leave this
precipice, you cannot go to the other side. So there is a point where
ultimately he takes the leap. When he takes the leap, he is lifted up
into the air. But he has not yet landed there. So there is a point
where he has left this precipice, but not yet landed on the other
side. In between, where is he? Nowhere. That nowhere is the spiritual
void. At that time, neither is the human ego there nor has the divine
Consciousness come. At that time, they say there is a void. But, of
course, in the spiritual context, the duration of the void may be a
little longer.

Q. When he lands on the other side, is that Sahaja-samadhi or is he
at a stage where he can still slip in and out?

It is the ultimate state, the ultimate Samadhi. Until that stage
there is still duality, a trace of duality. Once you are there, there
is absolute non-duality. You are one with Brahman.

-------------------
It appears to me that it would be wonderful if you stay within yourself
and not
think about what would be better for others. If sound meditation is good
for you,
then stay with it. Wandering around so many different technics is not
good for
advancing. And a good way to stay within is to stay in your Self, not in
your
thoughts. Your true nature is that of the Self, not the personality.
-------------------
Thanks (mlcanow?) for this very profound comment. What you say makes
sense - even to my mind! My mind now asks, what is the role of thought?
How does it relate to the Self?

...Tony






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________



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When you meditate should you concentrate on your breathing or should
you do visulization?  What is the difference?
L and J

ihave taken an intrest in meditation and i was wondering exactly wat
to do to be in a meditative state. such as breathing a right way
along with certain positions. can anyone help?

Hi Jason,

Thanks for taking the time to explain this complex idea to me. I feel I
partly understand it. As my understanding progresses the whole idea
seems too incredible to fully accept. I feel there is some deep
resistance preventing me from going further. I guess it takes the
enlightened state to release the thinking mind from the surface on which
it stands. If you told me what I am standing on does not exist, it is my
creation, I would be scared to accept that since my whole reality might
explode in my face - even if that is what I ultimately want. I guess I
should just stay open to the possibility.

...Tony


Message: 2
    Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 02:37:54 -0800 (PST)
    From: Jason Fishman <munkiman4u@...>
Subject: Re: Introvert v extrovert

Hi Tony,

It means the dissection of reality, it means cutting to the quick of how
self is defined, as well as, what one takes as not-self. It's a
disposition of bounderies between what is sensed and that which senses.

It means, if you know words or any other object, like thought, it's as
the reflection of the interpersonal in relation to the
extropersonal contrast of self.

Irregardless of mind or the thinker of thoughts, the sensor
is the vanishing point that does not need to maintain qualities of it's
own, like a silent mind or a healthy body. Nor does it get to keep those
qualities for itself, it wouldn't want to since everything thing that
defines it's presence, including it's desire, is the seperation of the
reflection of self to other.

The amazment of the thinking mind get's resolved. It is
clear that there is no permanence to it or any other object that it
finds to be always the case, or in which holds a property like truth,
there is dissolution of self as taken to be any such property.

-Peace and Love

--- Tony Osime <tony.osime@...> wrote:

> Hi Jason,
>
> Thanks for your very wise words. I was particularly intrigued by your
> statement:
>
> "...dissolve any hindrance to self by exposing the ways of the
> reflective other..."
>
> Would this refer to exposing the ways of "thought and thinking"? What
> I find so amazing is regarding my thinking mind is a hindrance to
> "Self".
> It is my thinking mind I am using to write this? Or, who is writing
> these words? If I suspended my thinking would my words be
> different?
>
> ...I wanted to try writing without my thinking mind but nothing
> happened
> - or did it?
>
> Mmmm...I have to "not" think about that!
>
> ...Tony
>
> You wrote ---------------------------
> Introvert as a description isn't very helpful for meditation. If
> there
> were a majority of meditators that took a similar test they would
> most
> likely be described in the same manner.
>
> Meditation isn't a group activity and for the entirety of practice,
> the focus is self-situated, as-if there are those that are not self
> oriented, even in group activities.
>
> If we meditate to better relate to others or the world at large then
> it remains a self focus in reflection.To be a healthy self or learn of
> love
> or anger or any assorted trait, all are self
> oriented activities, which benifits are seen through
> the eyes of the other to formulate those traits
> for themselves.
>
> The encompassing qualifier for meditation can be said to
> dissolve any hindrance to self by exposing the ways of
> the reflective other, without introversed or extroverted
> focus.
>

Thanks Savitri,

I found a lot of comfort in your words. I am very comfortable with my
inner sounds technique, so I am not really looking for something new. I
have a curious mind that likes to explore, so I took it for a walk. I am
beginning to feel that "it" is taking "me" for a walk. Oh well, one day
I will wake up!

Thanks again Savitri...Tony

----------------------------------
Message: 1
    Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 13:27:11 -0800 (PST)
    From: Savitri &Kamalakar Rambhatla <krambhatla@...>
Subject: Re: Introvert v extrovert meditators

Tony:
I see your points and feel at times the same. However at the end of the
day intro or extro it is you who need to find the right mix and balance
a state of equanimity. Meditation will take you beyond thoughts and
mind. As our Swamiji Nithyananda  www.dhyanapeetam.org says, one should
try as many techniques as possible , and once you find the technique
suitable to you stick with it and practice.  Jai Gurudev

Sri Nithya Swabav

Tony Osime <tony.osime@...> wrote:


-------------------
It appears to me that it would be wonderful if you stay within yourself
and not
think about what would be better for others. If sound meditation is good
for you,
then stay with it. Wandering around so many different technics is not
good for
advancing. And a good way to stay within is to stay in your Self, not in
your
thoughts. Your true nature is that of the Self, not the personality.
-------------------
Thanks (mlcanow?) for this very profound comment. What you say makes
sense - even to my mind! My mind now asks, what is the role of thought?
How does it relate to the Self?

...Tony






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----- Original Message -----

From: Andrew

To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 3:48 PM

Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Help

ihave taken an intrest in meditation and i was wondering exactly wat
to do to be in a meditative state.

 

 

Ascertain...........who is it......... that wishes to be in a meditative state.

 

 

 

Hi Jason,

Thanks for taking the time to explain this complex idea to me. I feel I
partly understand it. As my understanding progresses the whole idea
seems too incredible to fully accept. I feel there is some deep
resistance preventing me from going further. I guess it takes the
enlightened state to release the thinking mind from the surface on which
it stands. If you told me what I am standing on does not exist, it is my
creation, I would be scared to accept that since my whole reality might
explode in my face - even if that is what I ultimately want. I guess I
should just stay open to the possibility.

...Tony


Message: 2        
   Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 02:37:54 -0800 (PST)
   From: Jason Fishman <munkiman4u@...>
Subject: Re: Introvert v extrovert

Hi Tony,

It means the dissection of reality, it means cutting to the quick of how
self is defined, as well as, what one takes as not-self. It's a
disposition of bounderies between what is sensed and that which senses.

It means, if you know words or any other object, like thought, it's as
the reflection of the interpersonal in relation to the
extropersonal contrast of self.

Irregardless of mind or the thinker of thoughts, the sensor
is the vanishing point that does not need to maintain qualities of it's
own, like a silent mind or a healthy body. Nor does it get to keep those
qualities for itself, it wouldn't want to since everything thing that
defines it's presence, including it's desire, is the seperation of the
reflection of self to other.

The amazment of the thinking mind get's resolved. It is
clear that there is no permanence to it or any other object that it
finds to be always the case, or in which holds a property like truth,
there is dissolution of self as taken to be any such property.

-Peace and Love

--- Tony Osime <tony.osime@...> wrote:

> Hi Jason,
>
> Thanks for your very wise words. I was particularly intrigued by your
> statement:
>
> "...dissolve any hindrance to self by exposing the ways of the
> reflective other..."
>
> Would this refer to exposing the ways of "thought and thinking"? What
> I find so amazing is regarding my thinking mind is a hindrance to
> "Self".
> It is my thinking mind I am using to write this? Or, who is writing
> these words? If I suspended my thinking would my words be
> different?
>
> ...I wanted to try writing without my thinking mind but nothing
> happened
> - or did it?
>
> Mmmm...I have to "not" think about that!
>
> ...Tony
>
> You wrote ---------------------------
> Introvert as a description isn't very helpful for meditation. If
> there
> were a majority of meditators that took a similar test they would
> most
> likely be described in the same manner.
>
> Meditation isn't a group activity and for the entirety of practice,
> the focus is self-situated, as-if there are those that are not self
> oriented, even in group activities.
>
> If we meditate to better relate to others or the world at large then
> it remains a self focus in reflection.To be a healthy self or learn of
> love
> or anger or any assorted trait, all are self
> oriented activities, which benifits are seen through
> the eyes of the other to formulate those traits
> for themselves.
>
> The encompassing qualifier for meditation can be said to
> dissolve any hindrance to self by exposing the ways of
> the reflective other, without introversed or extroverted
> focus.
> 

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ihave taken an intrest in meditation and i was wondering exactly wat
to do to be in a meditative state. such as breathing a right way
along with certain positions. can anyone help?

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew"
<ace_zero40@y...> wrote:
>
> ihave taken an intrest in meditation and i was wondering exactly
wat
> to do to be in a meditative state. such as breathing a right way
> along with certain positions. can anyone help?


Dear Andrew,
             Namaskar.
  It is very nice that you are getting into meditation. Meditation
means focusing attention on something. That something matters. If
you are focusing your attention on your enemy then your meditative
state is sorrowful and if you are focusing your attention on your
loved one then your meditative state is joyful. Sorrwful and joyful
states are result of chemical conditions of the body. Imagine, how
quickly body chemistry alters due to focusing attention on
something. So when you have taken up meditation I presume that you
are in search of more and more joyful state of mind.

    For that you will have to set your goal first. One goal is
dharmamegha samadhi, that is, independence from time and space, a
state of pure conscience.For a beginner this goal is difficult to
conceive. So I suggest a subgoal, that is,
roopalabanyabalabajrasamhanatwani kaya sampat which means beauty,
gracefulness, strength and toughness are wealths of body. So will
you please set your goal first? Thanks.
Regards,
Jogeshwar.

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Osime"
<tony.osime@f...> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I took a training course last week which included the Myers-Briggs
> personality type profile. I found that I was strongly introvert -
> (INTJ). I wondered if this has any relationship to meditation? For
> instance, would introvert people be more natural meditators since
they
> live so much of their lives "within" their minds? Also, would
different
> approaches to meditation be more suitable for extrovert or
introvert
> types. For example, my liking of inner sounds meditation seems to
suit
> my introvert nature.
>
> Any thoughts or comments please.
>
> ...Tony

Dear Tony,
          Namaskar.
By now you have got a good deal of advice. Have you settled your
mind? Basically I am too an introvert but it has never occured to my
mind whether or not I shall succeed.From 1959 to 1975 I was a great
failure. Since 1975 I am progressing.The path is infinite. However,
in case you need any further advice or you have any query you are
most welcome.Thanks.
Regards,
jogeshwar.