Good morning, Jeff,

> Yes, many of the denomination Internetist
> do their daily readers "faithfully". Round and round
> this world goes. Maybe Yahoo! will replace
> Hallelujah! one day, the way "What IS" or
> "This" replaces God.

Praise be!

> A Bob Rose by any other name, would he
> be as sweet? (Posting especially sweet
> and divine messages these last few days.
> Gratitude for a good start to his gods of
> the pigskin contests.)

Oh, feetball, it is that time of year again.

> Religion as a byproduct of transformation
> seems to be on the same hand as Don's
> bit of wisdom. Chicken or egg?

Well, I know one at least place where you can have your
chicken and egg together: the Waffle House. If I recall
correctly, you get some hasbrowns on the side, too.
Back in the late 80s when I was workin' at the Waffle House,
it was only $5.99. What a deal, if you don't count
the killer indoor air quality.

> Sipping hot lemon water, reflecting on
> days of  hazelnut coffee and cinnamon buns.

Try a dash of cayenne in that lemon water
and make it warm... gare-ON-teed to get you
up and... uh... going. ;)

> Blissful love for you, as always,

Thanks, Jeff, you mushbucket, you. Hehe...

the ever irreverent,
Nina

"Underlying all there is, there Is a Cause of all the "because of
this, then that", and by Grace we are aware and able to focus on It
and not just this and that."
Kir Li Molari

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
<no_reply@y...> wrote:
> "We need three kinds of food to survive. The first food is physical
> food, the second is the air we breathe, and the third is the external
> and internal impressions that flood into our organs of perception
> every second."
> G. I. Gurdjieff


Gurdijeff got the numbers mixed up

# 1 is the air imho

   Era

--- Nina <murrkis@...> wrote:

> Well, I know one at least place where you can have your
> chicken and egg together: the Waffle House. If I recall
> correctly, you get some hasbrowns on the side, too.
> Back in the late 80s when I was workin' at the Waffle House,
> it was only $5.99. What a deal, if you don't count
> the killer indoor air quality.

Yay! Waffle house!! Are they even in biz anymore? I worked there
in the 80's too. Now the air quality is even worse though working
in a printing plant. Shoulda became a structural engineer :-)

P&L



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
<no_reply@y...> wrote:
> From an email we received
> "What's wrong?"
> "ok what kinds of healings have you ever seen or heard about using
> meditation/visualization  that the body does'nt normally do? i have a
> condition that the body does'nt usually repair. (spinal cord ischemia)
> it happend in a car accident when somehow my aorta was ripped off my
> heart and was'nt reattached for several hours, damaging/destroying the
> cells from no oxygen. im a drummer paralized from the naval down for
> over two years now, as i've been visualizing my body waking up and
> walking away from this wheelchair and nothing has woke up yet. whats
> wrong?"
> K****
>
> Here's how we responsed - add yours if you feel moved to:
> Dear K****
> Meditation is not about changing one physical aspect for another, it's
> more about waking up to reality and dealing with what is.
> Visualization of your body getting up and walking away from your
> wheelchair is potentially very worthwhile, as this would deal with
> your higher/astral/dream/conscious body, or whatever name you feel is
> best to describe a vehicle for out of (physical) body experiences. And
> this "body" may lead you to know first hand the truth of the spiritual
> axiom that you are not your body, or your emotions, or your mind. And
> that "You" are pure consciousness, truth, and bliss...eternal and
> infinite...united with all, everywhere, always, in all ways. And the 2
> years, or the 75 years of being in a physical body that perhaps is not
> what you wish, can be looked at as a perfect motivator to dive deep
> within to see what is eternal and not transient, what is real and not
> illusion, and know who you are beyond the (temporary) identity of
> being "...a drummer paralyzed from the naval down..."
> With meditation, you can change the perspective that you see your life
> in, and appreciate that there is only this moment and whether or not
> you have full use of your physical body or not, the whole universe is
> available to you in a real way transcendent of the limitations of the
> material aspects of the world. And so, I encourage you to pursue
> meditation and visualization and assure you that the greatest healing
> possible has been attained and experienced by many, and certainly is
> available to you, and that is to drop the illusionary "suffering" role
> you have assumed, and know experientially your rightful identity as
> loving divine oneness with all of creation.
> Peace and blessings,
> Bob Rose, President,
> Meditation Society of America


hi,

  -visualisation and positive thinking
  is key in healing

there is a pioneer woman who developed
  a cure including contacting your primal
  sound

her name is Emili Conrad

she has workshops at OMEGA institute:

http://eomega.org

http://tinyurl.com/5tt2b

and has a video which you can order
  from http://wisdomchannel.com

search for Emili Conrad

   IT IS AMAZING !

    metta, Era

name correction: Emilie Conrad

  -there is a pioneer woman who developed
>  a cure including contacting your primal
>  sound
>
> her name is Emilie Conrad
>
> she has workshops at OMEGA institute:
>
> http://eomega.org
>
> http://tinyurl.com/5tt2b
>
> and has a video which you can order
>  from http://wisdomchannel.com
>
> search for Emilie Conrad
>
>   IT IS AMAZING !
>
>    metta, Era

Right, Era.
If your priority is temporal importance.
Gurdjieff may have his ordered according
to physical density ;-)

Tom

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Era"
<mi_nok@y...> wrote:
> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
medit8ionsociety <no_reply@y...> wrote:
> > "We need three kinds of food to survive. The first food is
physical
> > food, the second is the air we breathe, and the third is the
external
> > and internal impressions that flood into our organs of perception
> > every second."
> > G. I. Gurdjieff
>
>
> Gurdijeff got the numbers mixed up
>
> # 1 is the air imho
>
>   Era

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Flou" <tom@f...> wrote:
>
> Right, Era.
> If your priority is temporal importance.
> Gurdjieff may have his ordered according
> to physical density ;-)
>
> Tom


   yes, I see


> medit8ionsociety <no_reply@y...> wrote:
> > > "We need three kinds of food to survive. The first food is
> physical
> > > food, the second is the air we breathe, and the third is the
> external
> > > and internal impressions that flood into our organs of perception
> > > every second."
> > > G. I. Gurdjieff
> >
> >
> > Gurdijeff got the numbers mixed up
> >
> > # 1 is the air imho
> >
> >   Era

Hi everyone!!

I just joined the group and did so because i am very interested in
learning more about meditation and spiritual religions.  I am very
very new to the whole idea and have a friend on the west coast who
just swears by the mentality and will of what he does. I am trying
to find anyone who has read and can offer a great book on beginning
this journey. I am not sure what aspect i want to take on all of
this, etc. budhism, judaism, kabbalah. so any information or
feedback would be GREATLY appreciated. have a great weekend and i am
glad to be a part of the group and look forward to talking with many
of you. Thank you.

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
"tiara8272" <tiara8272@y...> wrote:
> Hi everyone!!
>
> I just joined the group and did so because i am very interested
in
> learning more about meditation and spiritual religions.  I am
very
> very new to the whole idea and have a friend on the west coast
who
> just swears by the mentality and will of what he does. I am
trying
> to find anyone who has read and can offer a great book on
beginning
> this journey. I am not sure what aspect i want to take on all of
> this, etc. budhism, judaism, kabbalah. so any information or
> feedback would be GREATLY appreciated. have a great
weekend and i am
> glad to be a part of the group and look forward to talking with
many
> of you. Thank you.

Hi -

Check out the files section here
as a starter.

Best,

Jeff
Mystic Heart Meditation

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "tiara8272"
<tiara8272@y...> wrote:
> Hi everyone!!
>
> I just joined the group and did so because i am very interested in
> learning more about meditation and spiritual religions.  I am very
> very new to the whole idea and have a friend on the west coast who
> just swears by the mentality and will of what he does. I am trying
> to find anyone who has read and can offer a great book on beginning
> this journey. I am not sure what aspect i want to take on all of
> this, etc. budhism, judaism, kabbalah. so any information or
> feedback would be GREATLY appreciated. have a great weekend and i am
> glad to be a part of the group and look forward to talking with many
> of you. Thank you.
Welcome!
We have a nice selection of books in the Suggested Reading section of
our web site at  http://home.meditationsociety.com/reading.html
While there I suggest you check out the Beginners section, starting
with the "What Is Meditation" article. Then, if you browse through our
archives, you will find dozens of "how-to" techniques, and if one or a
few attract you, actually try to do them. There is no better way to
learn about meditation than by meditating. And then if you have any
questions, or want to share your experiences, this is the place.
Peace and blessing,
Bob

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
<jeff@m...> wrote:

snip

> Hi -
>
> Check out the files section here
> as a starter.
>
> Best,
>
> Jeff
> Mystic Heart Meditation

Yo PapaJeff and all,

I went to the files section and saw that the first file listed is an
eBook of Alister Crowley meditations. I then found that I, as
moderator, can't delete it, which I was inclined to do, particularly
as it may be the first thing that a beginner may check, and I have
great doubts that this would be the "best" this group can offer. So, I
don't mind debating the rightness or wrongness of deleting this, and
prefer that we don't have to, but I'd really like to know if anyone
more compu-savey than me (which would be many), could tell me how one
goes about getting rid of a file in this group.

Also, PapaJeff himself has written a very good book, Sunrise at Two
Lions, that can well serve as a good send off on the Yellow Brick road
of meditation. It can be found at http://www.mindgoal.com
BTW, to me, The Living Gita, and The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, both by
Swami Satchidananda, are the best books you can find.
Peace and blessings,
Bob
PS: The Eagles did it again! Look out everybody else!!!

"Era" <mi_nok@y...> wrote:
> --- In "Tom Flou" <tom@f...> wrote:
> >
> > Right, Era.
> > If your priority is temporal importance.
> > Gurdjieff may have his ordered according
> > to physical density ;-)
> >
> > Tom


Tom, your winking kind answer kept me
  thinking about the etheric quality of
  food, of any food; mental physical or
else

I followed many diets among them one
  with vegan raw-live food; living in
an Ashram where we planted the seeds
with good-vibrations: with a mantra,
harvested and cooked the same way,
and eat the same way honoring the
prana

   thanks for reminding me

-right now I am not a vegan only
  mix food according their time of
digestion, keeping in mind that proteins
  take 4-6 hours and fruits 1-2, so mixing
  them would be eating rotten fruits..

was Gurdijeff vegetarian?

   metta, Era

ps: food for my psyche is my favorite one



>   yes, I see
>
>
> > medit8ionsociety <no_reply@y...> wrote:
> > > > "We need three kinds of food to survive. The first food is
> > physical
> > > > food, the second is the air we breathe, and the third is the
> > external
> > > > and internal impressions that flood into our organs of perception
> > > > every second."
> > > > G. I. Gurdjieff
> > >
> > >
> > > Gurdijeff got the numbers mixed up
> > >
> > > # 1 is the air imho
> > >
> > >   Era

Hi Era.

Its many years since I was "engaged with Gurdjieff."
I recall him as a man of good and varied taste,
not favoring or avoiding anything in particular.
Smoking, eating and drinking with gusto.
He was a good cook himself.
I think he advocated trust in the intelligence
of the autonomic body-functions, that you should not
interfere with the functioning of the internal organs.
I recall an anecdote from some book. He was traveling.
At that time someone had convinced him it was important
that the food be chewed 21 or something times before
it was swallowed. (7 times left, 7 times right and
7 times back and forth. >LOL< (Tom´s addition))
Then he met this man who had the opinion that if you,
with your mouth, did all the work on behalf of your stomach,
the stomach would "forget" to do its job properly ;-)
I like to think he applied this philosophy to all other,
autonomic body functions.

Personally I thing I would feel very comfortable
at Gurdijeff´s table.

Regarding the Ashram-gardening mode you refer to:
My view is this:
Do, whatever you do, with full attention.
- Then it matters less what Mantra or vibration you put into it.
And I don't think the vegetables care either. ;-)

> ps: food for my psyche is my favorite one

I agree, particularely after a good, Gurdijevian, meal :-)

Tom



> "Era" <mi_nok@y...> wrote:

> Tom, your winking kind answer kept me
>  thinking about the etheric quality of
>  food, of any food; mental physical or
> else
>
> I followed many diets among them one
>  with vegan raw-live food; living in
> an Ashram where we planted the seeds
> with good-vibrations: with a mantra,
> harvested and cooked the same way,
> and eat the same way honoring the
> prana
>
>   thanks for reminding me
>
> -right now I am not a vegan only
>  mix food according their time of
> digestion, keeping in mind that proteins
>  take 4-6 hours and fruits 1-2, so mixing
>  them would be eating rotten fruits..
>
> was Gurdijeff vegetarian?
>
>   metta, Era
>
> ps: food for my psyche is my favorite one
>

Message: 3
   Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 20:58:00 -0000
   From: "tiara8272" <tiara8272@...>
Subject: Hi Group! (any great books?)

Hi everyone!!

I just joined the group and did so because i am very interested in
learning more about meditation and spiritual religions. ... I am not
sure what aspect i want to take on all of this, etc. budhism, judaism,
kabbalah. so any information or feedback would be GREATLY appreciated. ...

Aloha, Tiara8272!

There are many good books on meditation out there. If you want one
terrific book that gives you the broadest possible survey of
meditation methods, including those you mention above and many more, I
recommend Meditation for Dummies by Steven Bodian, and/or The Best
Guide to Meditation, by Victor N. Davich. There are other similar "big
books" out there, but these two are, in my opinion, are at the top of
the heap.

For individuals who are approaching meditation for the first time (and
for 'lapsed' meditators who are re-approaching meditation), I offer a
psychic reading that matches the individual with 8-12 suitable
meditation modalities, based on your temperament, soul vibration, life
purpose and other esoteric factors. You can read about this service on
my website.

All the best to you, and welcome to the group!

for 'Mental Yentl, the Meditation Matchmaker,'

Rev. Sue Annabrooke Jones
CosmicLotus.org: a Cyberministry
http://CosmicLotus.org
LotusFlowering@...

> Hi everyone!!
>
> I just joined the group and did so because i am very interested in
> learning more about meditation and spiritual religions. ... I am not
> sure what aspect i want to take on all of this, etc. budhism, judaism,
> kabbalah. so any information or feedback would be GREATLY appreciated. ...
>
> Aloha, Tiara8272!
>
> There are many good books on meditation out there. If you want one
> terrific book that gives you the broadest possible survey of
> meditation methods, including those you mention above and many more, I
> recommend Meditation for Dummies by Steven Bodian, and/or The Best
> Guide to Meditation, by Victor N. Davich. There are other similar "big
> books" out there, but these two are, in my opinion, are at the top of
> the heap.
>
> For individuals who are approaching meditation for the first time (and
> for 'lapsed' meditators who are re-approaching meditation), I offer a
> psychic reading that matches the individual with 8-12 suitable
> meditation modalities, based on your temperament, soul vibration, life
> purpose and other esoteric factors. You can read about this service on
> my website.
>
> All the best to you, and welcome to the group!
>
> for 'Mental Yentl, the Meditation Matchmaker,'
>
> Rev. Sue Annabrooke Jones
> CosmicLotus.org: a Cyberministry
> http://CosmicLotus.org
> LotusFlowering@N...


a good over-view of meditations and
  100's of yoga methods

The Crown of Life by Sant Kirpal

page# 165 The Path of the Masters,
Sant Mat aka Surat Shabd Yoga Meditation

<http://santmat-meditation.net/santmat/shabd-1.html>

   metta, Era

New Delhi: Modern science tells us that love is
essentially a chemical phenomenon. All the things you
feel when you're in love can be explained by the
presence of certain chemicals—-say, phenyl ethylamine
which is associated with a feeling of bliss or
oxytocin that's found to be high in breast-feeding
mothers.

While research on the subject is still not
conclusive, there are suggestions that religious and
spiritual experiences, too, might be built into the
complex circuitry of our brains. At least that's what
research in two American universities appear to
indicate.

Research at the University of Wisconsin at Madison
and the University of California, San Francisco, on
Buddhist monks showed that parts of the brain dealing
with positive emotions and self-control were more
active, while those associated with memory of fear
were relatively calmer, leading researchers to believe
that Buddhist monks who appear happy and calm were are
genuinely so.

To take the research on spiritual experience
further, Andrew Newburg, a radiologist at the
University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, scanned
the brains of Buddhist monks and Franciscan nuns in
meditation or prayer and the results were fascinating.

First, the prefrontal cortex -or the part of the
brain dealing with positive emotions -was seething
with activity. More interestingly, the parietal lobes
showed very little activity. What are parietal lobes?
These lobes are part of the cerebrum and are
associated with two functions, the orientation of the
body in space and the perception of space and time.

To be more precise, the left superior parietal lobe
creates the perception of the body's physical
boundaries and the right superior parietal lobe
creates the perception of physical space outside of
the body. Since, during meditation, the parietal lobes
are unable to create the perception of space and
linear time that are an essential part of our
consciousness, it gives rise to a sensation of
infinity and timelessness.

That's one take. Here's another. Dr Michael
Persinger at Laurentian University studied the brain
scans of temporal lobe of epileptic patients who
reported having mystical experiences. He then
artificially induced temporal lobe seizures on
volunteers and their reactions were the same as the
epileptics —-religious dream-like hallucinations and
the volunteers sensing `spectral presence´ in the room
with them.

Dr Persinger suggests this could be because of the
presence of the temporal cortex inside the temporal
lobes. The left hemisphere of the temporal cortex is
responsible for one's awareness of self. When the
activity in this cortex gets out of sync, as happens
in a seizure, the left hemisphere perceives the right
hemisphere as a `sensed presence´ separate from
itself, which could be interpreted as God.

Another part of the brain that could be playing a
role in religious experiences is the limbic system.
Limbic stimulation is known to bring richness to
experience. Jeffery Saver, a researcher at UCLA, says
that during a religious experience the limbic system
becomes unusually active, which makes everything that
happens during an experience especially significant.
In fact, even elaborate religious ceremonies,
involving things like chanting and rituals, make the
brain tag the rituals as different from everyday
activities. This, in turn, triggers activity in the
limbic system leading to a feeling of bliss.

Skeptics will interpret the scientific findings as
proof that God does not exist, because we can
scientifically replicate mystical religious
experiences. However, Newberg himself says that while
he has a sense of his own spirituality, his agenda for
research doesn't include determining whether god
exists or not. That, according to him, is a different
question from trying to determine the neurology of
spiritual and religious experiences.


    metta, Era

Hello Group,

My view is that science can tell us the HOW of many
processes -- the step-by-step interactions that got us
from crawling creatures to human beings.  But the
questions of WHY are beyond its scope.  Because we can
explain a process does not mean that we understand its
essential substance.  That's the area of religion and
spirituality.  I don't see a conflict.  I wouldn't go
to a scientist for a philosophical or spiritual
assessment anymore than I would go to a spiritual
guide for a scientific one.

Just my $0.02

thanks,

Patrick


--- Era <mi_nok@...> wrote:

> New Delhi: Modern science tells us that love is
> essentially a chemical phenomenon. All the things
> you
> feel when you're in love can be explained by the
> presence of certain chemicals—-say, phenyl
> ethylamine
> which is associated with a feeling of bliss or
> oxytocin that's found to be high in breast-feeding
> mothers.
>
> While research on the subject is still not
> conclusive, there are suggestions that religious and
> spiritual experiences, too, might be built into the
> complex circuitry of our brains. At least that's
> what
> research in two American universities appear to
> indicate.
>
> Research at the University of Wisconsin at Madison
> and the University of California, San Francisco, on
> Buddhist monks showed that parts of the brain
> dealing
> with positive emotions and self-control were more
> active, while those associated with memory of fear
> were relatively calmer, leading researchers to
> believe
> that Buddhist monks who appear happy and calm were
> are
> genuinely so.
>
> To take the research on spiritual experience
> further, Andrew Newburg, a radiologist at the
> University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, scanned
> the brains of Buddhist monks and Franciscan nuns in
> meditation or prayer and the results were
> fascinating.
>
> First, the prefrontal cortex -or the part of the
> brain dealing with positive emotions -was seething
> with activity. More interestingly, the parietal
> lobes
> showed very little activity. What are parietal
> lobes?
> These lobes are part of the cerebrum and are
> associated with two functions, the orientation of
> the
> body in space and the perception of space and time.
>
> To be more precise, the left superior parietal lobe
> creates the perception of the body's physical
> boundaries and the right superior parietal lobe
> creates the perception of physical space outside of
> the body. Since, during meditation, the parietal
> lobes
> are unable to create the perception of space and
> linear time that are an essential part of our
> consciousness, it gives rise to a sensation of
> infinity and timelessness.
>
> That's one take. Here's another. Dr Michael
> Persinger at Laurentian University studied the brain
> scans of temporal lobe of epileptic patients who
> reported having mystical experiences. He then
> artificially induced temporal lobe seizures on
> volunteers and their reactions were the same as the
> epileptics —-religious dream-like hallucinations and
> the volunteers sensing `spectral presence´ in the
> room
> with them.
>
> Dr Persinger suggests this could be because of the
> presence of the temporal cortex inside the temporal
> lobes. The left hemisphere of the temporal cortex is
> responsible for one's awareness of self. When the
> activity in this cortex gets out of sync, as happens
> in a seizure, the left hemisphere perceives the
> right
> hemisphere as a `sensed presence´ separate from
> itself, which could be interpreted as God.
>
> Another part of the brain that could be playing a
> role in religious experiences is the limbic system.
> Limbic stimulation is known to bring richness to
> experience. Jeffery Saver, a researcher at UCLA,
> says
> that during a religious experience the limbic system
> becomes unusually active, which makes everything
> that
> happens during an experience especially significant.
> In fact, even elaborate religious ceremonies,
> involving things like chanting and rituals, make the
> brain tag the rituals as different from everyday
> activities. This, in turn, triggers activity in the
> limbic system leading to a feeling of bliss.
>
> Skeptics will interpret the scientific findings as
> proof that God does not exist, because we can
> scientifically replicate mystical religious
> experiences. However, Newberg himself says that
> while
> he has a sense of his own spirituality, his agenda
> for
> research doesn't include determining whether god
> exists or not. That, according to him, is a
> different
> question from trying to determine the neurology of
> spiritual and religious experiences.
>
>
>    metta, Era
>
>
>
>




_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com

:) Maybe the 'how' IS the 'why'.

not even two cents,
Nina

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Santino_50
<santino_50@y...> wrote:
> Hello Group,
>
> My view is that science can tell us the HOW of many
> processes -- the step-by-step interactions that got us
> from crawling creatures to human beings.  But the
> questions of WHY are beyond its scope.  Because we can
> explain a process does not mean that we understand its
> essential substance.  That's the area of religion and
> spirituality.  I don't see a conflict.  I wouldn't go
> to a scientist for a philosophical or spiritual
> assessment anymore than I would go to a spiritual
> guide for a scientific one.
>
> Just my $0.02
>
> thanks,
>
> Patrick
>
>
> --- Era <mi_nok@y...> wrote:
>
> > New Delhi: Modern science tells us that love is
> > essentially a chemical phenomenon. All the things
> > you
> > feel when you're in love can be explained by the
> > presence of certain chemicals—-say, phenyl
> > ethylamine
> > which is associated with a feeling of bliss or
> > oxytocin that's found to be high in breast-feeding
> > mothers.
> >
> > While research on the subject is still not
> > conclusive, there are suggestions that religious and
> > spiritual experiences, too, might be built into the
> > complex circuitry of our brains. At least that's
> > what
> > research in two American universities appear to
> > indicate.
> >
> > Research at the University of Wisconsin at Madison
> > and the University of California, San Francisco, on
> > Buddhist monks showed that parts of the brain
> > dealing
> > with positive emotions and self-control were more
> > active, while those associated with memory of fear
> > were relatively calmer, leading researchers to
> > believe
> > that Buddhist monks who appear happy and calm were
> > are
> > genuinely so.
> >
> > To take the research on spiritual experience
> > further, Andrew Newburg, a radiologist at the
> > University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, scanned
> > the brains of Buddhist monks and Franciscan nuns in
> > meditation or prayer and the results were
> > fascinating.
> >
> > First, the prefrontal cortex -or the part of the
> > brain dealing with positive emotions -was seething
> > with activity. More interestingly, the parietal
> > lobes
> > showed very little activity. What are parietal
> > lobes?
> > These lobes are part of the cerebrum and are
> > associated with two functions, the orientation of
> > the
> > body in space and the perception of space and time.
> >
> > To be more precise, the left superior parietal lobe
> > creates the perception of the body's physical
> > boundaries and the right superior parietal lobe
> > creates the perception of physical space outside of
> > the body. Since, during meditation, the parietal
> > lobes
> > are unable to create the perception of space and
> > linear time that are an essential part of our
> > consciousness, it gives rise to a sensation of
> > infinity and timelessness.
> >
> > That's one take. Here's another. Dr Michael
> > Persinger at Laurentian University studied the brain
> > scans of temporal lobe of epileptic patients who
> > reported having mystical experiences. He then
> > artificially induced temporal lobe seizures on
> > volunteers and their reactions were the same as the
> > epileptics —-religious dream-like hallucinations and
> > the volunteers sensing `spectral presence´ in the
> > room
> > with them.
> >
> > Dr Persinger suggests this could be because of the
> > presence of the temporal cortex inside the temporal
> > lobes. The left hemisphere of the temporal cortex is
> > responsible for one's awareness of self. When the
> > activity in this cortex gets out of sync, as happens
> > in a seizure, the left hemisphere perceives the
> > right
> > hemisphere as a `sensed presence´ separate from
> > itself, which could be interpreted as God.
> >
> > Another part of the brain that could be playing a
> > role in religious experiences is the limbic system.
> > Limbic stimulation is known to bring richness to
> > experience. Jeffery Saver, a researcher at UCLA,
> > says
> > that during a religious experience the limbic system
> > becomes unusually active, which makes everything
> > that
> > happens during an experience especially significant.
> > In fact, even elaborate religious ceremonies,
> > involving things like chanting and rituals, make the
> > brain tag the rituals as different from everyday
> > activities. This, in turn, triggers activity in the
> > limbic system leading to a feeling of bliss.
> >
> > Skeptics will interpret the scientific findings as
> > proof that God does not exist, because we can
> > scientifically replicate mystical religious
> > experiences. However, Newberg himself says that
> > while
> > he has a sense of his own spirituality, his agenda
> > for
> > research doesn't include determining whether god
> > exists or not. That, according to him, is a
> > different
> > question from trying to determine the neurology of
> > spiritual and religious experiences.
> >
> >
> >    metta, Era
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
> http://vote.yahoo.com

Meat that thinks
and meat that
has a spritual
experience?

Where's the love,
women?

(ü)


--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
<murrkis@y...> wrote:
> :) Maybe the 'how' IS the 'why'.
>
> not even two cents,
> Nina
>
> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
Santino_50
> <santino_50@y...> wrote:
> > Hello Group,
> >
> > My view is that science can tell us the HOW of many
> > processes -- the step-by-step interactions that got us
> > from crawling creatures to human beings.  But the
> > questions of WHY are beyond its scope.  Because we can
> > explain a process does not mean that we understand its
> > essential substance.  That's the area of religion and
> > spirituality.  I don't see a conflict.  I wouldn't go
> > to a scientist for a philosophical or spiritual
> > assessment anymore than I would go to a spiritual
> > guide for a scientific one.
> >
> > Just my $0.02
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > Patrick
> >
> >
> > --- Era <mi_nok@y...> wrote:
> >
> > > New Delhi: Modern science tells us that love is
> > > essentially a chemical phenomenon. All the things
> > > you
> > > feel when you're in love can be explained by the
> > > presence of certain chemicals—-say, phenyl
> > > ethylamine
> > > which is associated with a feeling of bliss or
> > > oxytocin that's found to be high in breast-feeding
> > > mothers.
> > >
> > > While research on the subject is still not
> > > conclusive, there are suggestions that religious and
> > > spiritual experiences, too, might be built into the
> > > complex circuitry of our brains. At least that's
> > > what
> > > research in two American universities appear to
> > > indicate.
> > >
> > > Research at the University of Wisconsin at Madison
> > > and the University of California, San Francisco, on
> > > Buddhist monks showed that parts of the brain
> > > dealing
> > > with positive emotions and self-control were more
> > > active, while those associated with memory of fear
> > > were relatively calmer, leading researchers to
> > > believe
> > > that Buddhist monks who appear happy and calm were
> > > are
> > > genuinely so.
> > >
> > > To take the research on spiritual experience
> > > further, Andrew Newburg, a radiologist at the
> > > University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, scanned
> > > the brains of Buddhist monks and Franciscan nuns in
> > > meditation or prayer and the results were
> > > fascinating.
> > >
> > > First, the prefrontal cortex -or the part of the
> > > brain dealing with positive emotions -was seething
> > > with activity. More interestingly, the parietal
> > > lobes
> > > showed very little activity. What are parietal
> > > lobes?
> > > These lobes are part of the cerebrum and are
> > > associated with two functions, the orientation of
> > > the
> > > body in space and the perception of space and time.
> > >
> > > To be more precise, the left superior parietal lobe
> > > creates the perception of the body's physical
> > > boundaries and the right superior parietal lobe
> > > creates the perception of physical space outside of
> > > the body. Since, during meditation, the parietal
> > > lobes
> > > are unable to create the perception of space and
> > > linear time that are an essential part of our
> > > consciousness, it gives rise to a sensation of
> > > infinity and timelessness.
> > >
> > > That's one take. Here's another. Dr Michael
> > > Persinger at Laurentian University studied the brain
> > > scans of temporal lobe of epileptic patients who
> > > reported having mystical experiences. He then
> > > artificially induced temporal lobe seizures on
> > > volunteers and their reactions were the same as the
> > > epileptics —-religious dream-like hallucinations and
> > > the volunteers sensing `spectral presence´ in the
> > > room
> > > with them.
> > >
> > > Dr Persinger suggests this could be because of the
> > > presence of the temporal cortex inside the temporal
> > > lobes. The left hemisphere of the temporal cortex is
> > > responsible for one's awareness of self. When the
> > > activity in this cortex gets out of sync, as happens
> > > in a seizure, the left hemisphere perceives the
> > > right
> > > hemisphere as a `sensed presence´ separate from
> > > itself, which could be interpreted as God.
> > >
> > > Another part of the brain that could be playing a
> > > role in religious experiences is the limbic system.
> > > Limbic stimulation is known to bring richness to
> > > experience. Jeffery Saver, a researcher at UCLA,
> > > says
> > > that during a religious experience the limbic system
> > > becomes unusually active, which makes everything
> > > that
> > > happens during an experience especially significant.
> > > In fact, even elaborate religious ceremonies,
> > > involving things like chanting and rituals, make the
> > > brain tag the rituals as different from everyday
> > > activities. This, in turn, triggers activity in the
> > > limbic system leading to a feeling of bliss.
> > >
> > > Skeptics will interpret the scientific findings as
> > > proof that God does not exist, because we can
> > > scientifically replicate mystical religious
> > > experiences. However, Newberg himself says that
> > > while
> > > he has a sense of his own spirituality, his agenda
> > > for
> > > research doesn't include determining whether god
> > > exists or not. That, according to him, is a
> > > different
> > > question from trying to determine the neurology of
> > > spiritual and religious experiences.
> > >
> > >
> > >    metta, Era
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
> > http://vote.yahoo.com

Hehe, I got plenty of love,
right here in my luteinizing
hormones. Surge, baby, surge!

If you can't see the love
in the 'how', then I might ask
you the similar:

"Where's the love, man?"

;) Nina

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
<jeff@m...> wrote:
> Meat that thinks
> and meat that
> has a spritual
> experience?
>
> Where's the love,
> women?
>
> (ü)
>
>
> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
> <murrkis@y...> wrote:
> > :) Maybe the 'how' IS the 'why'.
> >
> > not even two cents,
> > Nina
> >
> > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
> Santino_50
> > <santino_50@y...> wrote:
> > > Hello Group,
> > >
> > > My view is that science can tell us the HOW of many
> > > processes -- the step-by-step interactions that got us
> > > from crawling creatures to human beings.  But the
> > > questions of WHY are beyond its scope.  Because we can
> > > explain a process does not mean that we understand its
> > > essential substance.  That's the area of religion and
> > > spirituality.  I don't see a conflict.  I wouldn't go
> > > to a scientist for a philosophical or spiritual
> > > assessment anymore than I would go to a spiritual
> > > guide for a scientific one.
> > >
> > > Just my $0.02
> > >
> > > thanks,
> > >
> > > Patrick
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Era <mi_nok@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > > New Delhi: Modern science tells us that love is
> > > > essentially a chemical phenomenon. All the things
> > > > you
> > > > feel when you're in love can be explained by the
> > > > presence of certain chemicals—-say, phenyl
> > > > ethylamine
> > > > which is associated with a feeling of bliss or
> > > > oxytocin that's found to be high in breast-feeding
> > > > mothers.
> > > >
> > > > While research on the subject is still not
> > > > conclusive, there are suggestions that religious and
> > > > spiritual experiences, too, might be built into the
> > > > complex circuitry of our brains. At least that's
> > > > what
> > > > research in two American universities appear to
> > > > indicate.
> > > >
> > > > Research at the University of Wisconsin at Madison
> > > > and the University of California, San Francisco, on
> > > > Buddhist monks showed that parts of the brain
> > > > dealing
> > > > with positive emotions and self-control were more
> > > > active, while those associated with memory of fear
> > > > were relatively calmer, leading researchers to
> > > > believe
> > > > that Buddhist monks who appear happy and calm were
> > > > are
> > > > genuinely so.
> > > >
> > > > To take the research on spiritual experience
> > > > further, Andrew Newburg, a radiologist at the
> > > > University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, scanned
> > > > the brains of Buddhist monks and Franciscan nuns in
> > > > meditation or prayer and the results were
> > > > fascinating.
> > > >
> > > > First, the prefrontal cortex -or the part of the
> > > > brain dealing with positive emotions -was seething
> > > > with activity. More interestingly, the parietal
> > > > lobes
> > > > showed very little activity. What are parietal
> > > > lobes?
> > > > These lobes are part of the cerebrum and are
> > > > associated with two functions, the orientation of
> > > > the
> > > > body in space and the perception of space and time.
> > > >
> > > > To be more precise, the left superior parietal lobe
> > > > creates the perception of the body's physical
> > > > boundaries and the right superior parietal lobe
> > > > creates the perception of physical space outside of
> > > > the body. Since, during meditation, the parietal
> > > > lobes
> > > > are unable to create the perception of space and
> > > > linear time that are an essential part of our
> > > > consciousness, it gives rise to a sensation of
> > > > infinity and timelessness.
> > > >
> > > > That's one take. Here's another. Dr Michael
> > > > Persinger at Laurentian University studied the brain
> > > > scans of temporal lobe of epileptic patients who
> > > > reported having mystical experiences. He then
> > > > artificially induced temporal lobe seizures on
> > > > volunteers and their reactions were the same as the
> > > > epileptics —-religious dream-like hallucinations and
> > > > the volunteers sensing `spectral presence´ in the
> > > > room
> > > > with them.
> > > >
> > > > Dr Persinger suggests this could be because of the
> > > > presence of the temporal cortex inside the temporal
> > > > lobes. The left hemisphere of the temporal cortex is
> > > > responsible for one's awareness of self. When the
> > > > activity in this cortex gets out of sync, as happens
> > > > in a seizure, the left hemisphere perceives the
> > > > right
> > > > hemisphere as a `sensed presence´ separate from
> > > > itself, which could be interpreted as God.
> > > >
> > > > Another part of the brain that could be playing a
> > > > role in religious experiences is the limbic system.
> > > > Limbic stimulation is known to bring richness to
> > > > experience. Jeffery Saver, a researcher at UCLA,
> > > > says
> > > > that during a religious experience the limbic system
> > > > becomes unusually active, which makes everything
> > > > that
> > > > happens during an experience especially significant.
> > > > In fact, even elaborate religious ceremonies,
> > > > involving things like chanting and rituals, make the
> > > > brain tag the rituals as different from everyday
> > > > activities. This, in turn, triggers activity in the
> > > > limbic system leading to a feeling of bliss.
> > > >
> > > > Skeptics will interpret the scientific findings as
> > > > proof that God does not exist, because we can
> > > > scientifically replicate mystical religious
> > > > experiences. However, Newberg himself says that
> > > > while
> > > > he has a sense of his own spirituality, his agenda
> > > > for
> > > > research doesn't include determining whether god
> > > > exists or not. That, according to him, is a
> > > > different
> > > > question from trying to determine the neurology of
> > > > spiritual and religious experiences.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >    metta, Era
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
> > > http://vote.yahoo.com

hello everyone,

I asked Hafizullah if the descending
  wave is what is called grace..
he didn't answer yet

what do you think?

  metta, Era

From: Era [mailto:mi_nok@y...]

Personal identity and enlightenment cannot go together.  

Indeed, there is actually no such thing as either
personal identity or enlightenment,
and the apperception of this fact is itself enlightenment.

Balsekar

Actually, the Sufis say that personal identity and enlightenment CAN go
together; it's a form of integration. But that process happens on the
*descent* of consciousness into manifestation. On the *ascent*, Balsekar is=

correct.

   Hafizullah
   @)->---

In the dewing. (ü)


--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
<murrkis@y...> wrote:
> Hehe, I got plenty of love,
> right here in my luteinizing
> hormones. Surge, baby, surge!
>
> If you can't see the love
> in the 'how', then I might ask
> you the similar:
>
> "Where's the love, man?"
>
> ;) Nina
>
> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff
Belyea"
> <jeff@m...> wrote:
> > Meat that thinks
> > and meat that
> > has a spritual
> > experience?
> >
> > Where's the love,
> > women?
> >
> > (ü)
> >
> >
> > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
> > <murrkis@y...> wrote:
> > > :) Maybe the 'how' IS the 'why'.
> > >
> > > not even two cents,
> > > Nina
> > >
> > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
> > Santino_50
> > > <santino_50@y...> wrote:
> > > > Hello Group,
> > > >
> > > > My view is that science can tell us the HOW of many
> > > > processes -- the step-by-step interactions that got us
> > > > from crawling creatures to human beings.  But the
> > > > questions of WHY are beyond its scope.  Because we
can
> > > > explain a process does not mean that we understand its
> > > > essential substance.  That's the area of religion and
> > > > spirituality.  I don't see a conflict.  I wouldn't go
> > > > to a scientist for a philosophical or spiritual
> > > > assessment anymore than I would go to a spiritual
> > > > guide for a scientific one.
> > > >
> > > > Just my $0.02
> > > >
> > > > thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Patrick
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- Era <mi_nok@y...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > New Delhi: Modern science tells us that love is
> > > > > essentially a chemical phenomenon. All the things
> > > > > you
> > > > > feel when you're in love can be explained by the
> > > > > presence of certain chemicals—-say, phenyl
> > > > > ethylamine
> > > > > which is associated with a feeling of bliss or
> > > > > oxytocin that's found to be high in breast-feeding
> > > > > mothers.
> > > > >
> > > > > While research on the subject is still not
> > > > > conclusive, there are suggestions that religious and
> > > > > spiritual experiences, too, might be built into the
> > > > > complex circuitry of our brains. At least that's
> > > > > what
> > > > > research in two American universities appear to
> > > > > indicate.
> > > > >
> > > > > Research at the University of Wisconsin at Madison
> > > > > and the University of California, San Francisco, on
> > > > > Buddhist monks showed that parts of the brain
> > > > > dealing
> > > > > with positive emotions and self-control were more
> > > > > active, while those associated with memory of fear
> > > > > were relatively calmer, leading researchers to
> > > > > believe
> > > > > that Buddhist monks who appear happy and calm were
> > > > > are
> > > > > genuinely so.
> > > > >
> > > > > To take the research on spiritual experience
> > > > > further, Andrew Newburg, a radiologist at the
> > > > > University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, scanned
> > > > > the brains of Buddhist monks and Franciscan nuns in
> > > > > meditation or prayer and the results were
> > > > > fascinating.
> > > > >
> > > > > First, the prefrontal cortex -or the part of the
> > > > > brain dealing with positive emotions -was seething
> > > > > with activity. More interestingly, the parietal
> > > > > lobes
> > > > > showed very little activity. What are parietal
> > > > > lobes?
> > > > > These lobes are part of the cerebrum and are
> > > > > associated with two functions, the orientation of
> > > > > the
> > > > > body in space and the perception of space and time.
> > > > >
> > > > > To be more precise, the left superior parietal lobe
> > > > > creates the perception of the body's physical
> > > > > boundaries and the right superior parietal lobe
> > > > > creates the perception of physical space outside of
> > > > > the body. Since, during meditation, the parietal
> > > > > lobes
> > > > > are unable to create the perception of space and
> > > > > linear time that are an essential part of our
> > > > > consciousness, it gives rise to a sensation of
> > > > > infinity and timelessness.
> > > > >
> > > > > That's one take. Here's another. Dr Michael
> > > > > Persinger at Laurentian University studied the brain
> > > > > scans of temporal lobe of epileptic patients who
> > > > > reported having mystical experiences. He then
> > > > > artificially induced temporal lobe seizures on
> > > > > volunteers and their reactions were the same as the
> > > > > epileptics —-religious dream-like hallucinations and
> > > > > the volunteers sensing `spectral presence´ in the
> > > > > room
> > > > > with them.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dr Persinger suggests this could be because of the
> > > > > presence of the temporal cortex inside the temporal
> > > > > lobes. The left hemisphere of the temporal cortex is
> > > > > responsible for one's awareness of self. When the
> > > > > activity in this cortex gets out of sync, as happens
> > > > > in a seizure, the left hemisphere perceives the
> > > > > right
> > > > > hemisphere as a `sensed presence´ separate from
> > > > > itself, which could be interpreted as God.
> > > > >
> > > > > Another part of the brain that could be playing a
> > > > > role in religious experiences is the limbic system.
> > > > > Limbic stimulation is known to bring richness to
> > > > > experience. Jeffery Saver, a researcher at UCLA,
> > > > > says
> > > > > that during a religious experience the limbic system
> > > > > becomes unusually active, which makes everything
> > > > > that
> > > > > happens during an experience especially significant.
> > > > > In fact, even elaborate religious ceremonies,
> > > > > involving things like chanting and rituals, make the
> > > > > brain tag the rituals as different from everyday
> > > > > activities. This, in turn, triggers activity in the
> > > > > limbic system leading to a feeling of bliss.
> > > > >
> > > > > Skeptics will interpret the scientific findings as
> > > > > proof that God does not exist, because we can
> > > > > scientifically replicate mystical religious
> > > > > experiences. However, Newberg himself says that
> > > > > while
> > > > > he has a sense of his own spirituality, his agenda
> > > > > for
> > > > > research doesn't include determining whether god
> > > > > exists or not. That, according to him, is a
> > > > > different
> > > > > question from trying to determine the neurology of
> > > > > spiritual and religious experiences.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >    metta, Era
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________
> > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
> > > > http://vote.yahoo.com

If the descending wave of
consciousness manifests
as enlightened consciousness,
then yes, "grace" IMNTBHO.

Jeff

(I'm back in the Newport Beach
area next February, Era.)
jeff@...

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Era"
<mi_nok@y...> wrote:
> hello everyone,
>
> I asked Hafizullah if the descending
>  wave is what is called grace..
> he didn't answer yet
>
> what do you think?
>
>  metta, Era
>
> From: Era [mailto:mi_nok@y...]
>
> Personal identity and enlightenment cannot go together.  
>
> Indeed, there is actually no such thing as either
> personal identity or enlightenment,
> and the apperception of this fact is itself enlightenment.
>
> Balsekar
>
> Actually, the Sufis say that personal identity and enlightenment
CAN go
> together; it's a form of integration. But that process happens on
the
> *descent* of consciousness into manifestation. On the
*ascent*, Balsekar is=
>
> correct.
>
>   Hafizullah
>   @)->---

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Era" <mi_nok@y...> wrot=
e:
> hello everyone,
>
> I asked Hafizullah if the descending
>  wave is what is called grace..
> he didn't answer yet
>
> what do you think?
>
>  metta, Era
>
> From: Era [mailto:mi_nok@y...]
>
> Personal identity and enlightenment cannot go together.  
>
> Indeed, there is actually no such thing as either
> personal identity or enlightenment,
> and the apperception of this fact is itself enlightenment.
>
> Balsekar
>
> Actually, the Sufis say that personal identity and enlightenment CAN go
> together; it's a form of integration. But that process happens on the
> *descent* of consciousness into manifestation. On the *ascent*,
> Balsekar is correct.
>
>   Hafizullah
>   @)->---

I think it is what cought Ramana
enrout the Amrit-nadi

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea" <jeff@m...=
> wrote:
> If the descending wave of
> consciousness manifests
> as enlightened consciousness,
> then yes, "grace" IMNTBHO.


what does this mean IMNTBHO ?

I only know IMO

>
> Jeff
>
> (I'm back in the Newport Beach
> area next February, Era.)


good to hear this Jeff ! I hope to
  see you there

sofar I only met Jeff Brooks in real
  life

and Don convinced me to see Amachi
  this spring

  hehe

   Era

> jeff@m...
>
> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Era"
> <mi_nok@y...> wrote:
> > hello everyone,
> >
> > I asked Hafizullah if the descending
> >  wave is what is called grace..
> > he didn't answer yet
> >
> > what do you think?
> >
> >  metta, Era
> >
> > From: Era [mailto:mi_nok@y...]
> >
> > Personal identity and enlightenment cannot go together.  
> >
> > Indeed, there is actually no such thing as either
> > personal identity or enlightenment,
> > and the apperception of this fact is itself enlightenment.
> >
> > Balsekar
> >
> > Actually, the Sufis say that personal identity and enlightenment
> CAN go
> > together; it's a form of integration. But that process happens on
> the
> > *descent* of consciousness into manifestation. On the
> *ascent*, Balsekar is=
> >
> > correct.
> >
> >   Hafizullah
> >   @)->---

IMO - In my opinion
IMHO - In my humble opinion
IMNTBHO - In my never-to-be humble opinion

(ü)


--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Era"
<mi_nok@y...> wrote:
> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff
Belyea" <jeff@m...=
> > wrote:
> > If the descending wave of
> > consciousness manifests
> > as enlightened consciousness,
> > then yes, "grace" IMNTBHO.
>
>
> what does this mean IMNTBHO ?
>
> I only know IMO
>
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > (I'm back in the Newport Beach
> > area next February, Era.)
>
>
> good to hear this Jeff ! I hope to
>  see you there
>
> sofar I only met Jeff Brooks in real
>  life
>
> and Don convinced me to see Amachi
>  this spring
>
>  hehe
>
>   Era
>
> > jeff@m...
> >
> > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Era"
> > <mi_nok@y...> wrote:
> > > hello everyone,
> > >
> > > I asked Hafizullah if the descending
> > >  wave is what is called grace..
> > > he didn't answer yet
> > >
> > > what do you think?
> > >
> > >  metta, Era
> > >
> > > From: Era [mailto:mi_nok@y...]
> > >
> > > Personal identity and enlightenment cannot go together.  
> > >
> > > Indeed, there is actually no such thing as either
> > > personal identity or enlightenment,
> > > and the apperception of this fact is itself enlightenment.
> > >
> > > Balsekar
> > >
> > > Actually, the Sufis say that personal identity and
enlightenment
> > CAN go
> > > together; it's a form of integration. But that process
happens on
> > the
> > > *descent* of consciousness into manifestation. On the
> > *ascent*, Balsekar is=
> > >
> > > correct.
> > >
> > >   Hafizullah
> > >   @)->---

"Jeff Belyea" <jeff@m...=
> wrote:
> IMO - In my opinion
> IMHO - In my humble opinion
> IMNTBHO - In my never-to-be humble opinion
>
> (ü)
>


  ROFLMAO


you are incurably enlightened Jeff Ji



> > > If the descending wave of
> > > consciousness manifests
> > > as enlightened consciousness,
> > > then yes, "grace" IMNTBHO.
> >
> >
> > what does this mean IMNTBHO ?
> >
> > I only know IMO
> >
> > >
> > > Jeff
> > > (I'm back in the Newport Beach
> > > area next February, Era.)
> >
> >
> > good to hear this Jeff ! I hope to
> >  see you there
> >
> > sofar I only met Jeff Brooks in real
> >  life
> >
> > and Don convinced me to see Amachi
> >  this spring
> >
> >  hehe
> >
> >   Era

personality test proved me independent..
but I know I'm opinionated, god forgive

<http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~chua/test/test.html>

   Era