--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "satkartar7"

<mi_nok@y...> wrote:

> > > Surrender of the ego...Bede Griffiths

> > >

> > >

> > > Ramanuja says that in pure knowledge there is no distinction

> > between

> > > the knowing subject and the known object. For the universal

Self,

> > > there is no distinction between the knower and the known. For

the

> > > individual Self, however, the 'I' or ego cannot be obliterated

> > > without obliterating the essential nature of the Self. The

> > > individual Self must have an I-consciousness which persists

even

> > in

> > > the state of ultimate release. The 'I' or ego is not merely an

> > > attribute of the individual Self, but constitutes the nature

of

> > the

> > > individual Self. Thus, the I-consciousness is not obliterated

by

> > > knowledge of Brahman.

> > >

> > > The knowing subject is the 'I' or ego, which is a

consciousness of

> > > the inward Self. The 'I' or ego is a form of knowledge,

> > constituting

> > > the essential nature of the Self. Thus, the released Self

knows

> > the

> > > essential nature of the inward Self.

> > >

> > > Atman may take three forms: 1) it may be bound to the material

> > > world, 2) it may be released from the material world, and 3)

it

> > may

> > > be eternal in its unity with Brahman. The bound Self

identifies

> > > itself with the material world. The released Self is freed

from

> > > attachment to the material world, and is aware of itself as a

> > > spiritual reality. Release from samsara (cyclic, worldly

> > existence)

> > > is a state of non-difference from the highest Self. The

released

> > > Self is aware of the unity of Brahman.

> > >

> > > Ramanuja rejects the doctrine that the phenomenal world is

> > illusory

> > > and unreal. According to Ramanuja, the phenomenal world is not

> > > unreal unless it is viewed as distinct from Brahman. The

> > phenomenal

> > > world is not simply a realm of false and illusory appearances.

The

> > > phenomenal world includes primordial matter (prakriti), which

is

> > > part of the body of Brahman.

> > >

> > > Prakriti has three qualities (or gunas): 1) clarity (sattva),

2)

> > > activity (passion, rajas), and 3) inactivity (darkness,

tamas).

> > > These gunas may interact to determine the nature of the

material

> > > world. Brahman is the inner Self or spirit (purusha) of

prakriti.

> > > Thus, reality is both material and spiritual. Spiritual

reality

> > may

> > > transform material reality. Plurality is not unreal unless it

is

> > > seen as replacing the unity of Brahman.

> > >

> > > Ramanuja's Visishtadvaita Vedanta (or philosophy of qualified

non-

> > > dualism) has some important differences from Shankara's

Advaita

> > > Vedanta (or philosophy of non-dualism). For Shankara,

> > > undifferentiated Brahman is ultimate realty. For Ramanuja,

> > > differentiated Brahman is ultimate reality. For Shankara,

> > > undifferentiated Brahman can be known and experienced

intuitively.

> > > For Ramanuja, Brahman can only be known through its

attributes,

> > and

> > > since Brahman has attributes which can be known and

experienced

> > > intuitively, it must be differentiated.

> > >

> > > For Shankara, maya is an illusory appearance of reality,

occurring

> > > when the plurality of the phenomenal world is superimposed on

the

> > > unity of Brahman. For Ramanuja, however, maya is real and is

the

> > > plurality of attributes which are manifested by Brahman. Maya

is

> > the

> > > way in which Brahman is manifested in the phenomenal world.

> >

> >

> > When it is said that Maya is illusion, it is reffered to its

> > temporary and impermanent characteristic, while Brahman is that

> > which is eternal, unmoving and permanent. So illusion really

reffers

> > to a non-permanent state. Only to understand and accept that all

> > that is born must die, all that is created will be destroyed,

all

> > that implies evolution will have involution, that the yin needs

the

> > yang, black needs white. Brahman needs nothing. Since Brahman is

> > permanent and eternal, it is said that it's Real. The real

source

> > and substratum of manifestation called maya or illusion.

Nothing

> > wrong nor right with illusion or maya or body or mind. Only the

> > points of view may keep man bounded or not. So it'a a matter of

> > point of view (for the thinking mind).

> >

> > ml

>

>

> yes, so true

>

> I wanted to post something within

> our discussion about viewing the ego

>  in a forgiving light, since I can't

>  put into words what I know about

> the subject as intelligent as you I

> Cut & Pasted the Ramajuna interview..

>  I am not sure if it is from Ramana,

> but this is not what I wanted to

> highlight, so I'll come back dear

> Maria Luisa

>

>  love Karta



You have just said it. Forgiveness. That is acceptance, a clear view

of things as they are, an open mind, not bounded to preconceptions,

to fear and doubt. Just things as they are. That's forgiveness. And

not necessarily we need to put words on things, we don't need to

understand via words. We can understand and see all as it is, just

in silence, without naming and categoraizing. You have the word:

forgiving light, very beautiful. Intelligence plays a little roll in

this. The Heart knows better.



Yours in the Heart,

ml

> > Surrender of the ego...Bede Griffiths

> >

> >

> > Ramanuja says that in pure knowledge there is no distinction

> between

> > the knowing subject and the known object. For the universal Self,

> > there is no distinction between the knower and the known. For the

> > individual Self, however, the 'I' or ego cannot be obliterated

> > without obliterating the essential nature of the Self. The

> > individual Self must have an I-consciousness which persists even

> in

> > the state of ultimate release. The 'I' or ego is not merely an

> > attribute of the individual Self, but constitutes the nature of

> the

> > individual Self. Thus, the I-consciousness is not obliterated by

> > knowledge of Brahman.

> >

> > The knowing subject is the 'I' or ego, which is a consciousness of

> > the inward Self. The 'I' or ego is a form of knowledge,

> constituting

> > the essential nature of the Self. Thus, the released Self knows

> the

> > essential nature of the inward Self.

> >

> > Atman may take three forms: 1) it may be bound to the material

> > world, 2) it may be released from the material world, and 3) it

> may

> > be eternal in its unity with Brahman. The bound Self identifies

> > itself with the material world. The released Self is freed from

> > attachment to the material world, and is aware of itself as a

> > spiritual reality. Release from samsara (cyclic, worldly

> existence)

> > is a state of non-difference from the highest Self. The released

> > Self is aware of the unity of Brahman.

> >

> > Ramanuja rejects the doctrine that the phenomenal world is

> illusory

> > and unreal. According to Ramanuja, the phenomenal world is not

> > unreal unless it is viewed as distinct from Brahman. The

> phenomenal

> > world is not simply a realm of false and illusory appearances. The

> > phenomenal world includes primordial matter (prakriti), which is

> > part of the body of Brahman.

> >

> > Prakriti has three qualities (or gunas): 1) clarity (sattva), 2)

> > activity (passion, rajas), and 3) inactivity (darkness, tamas).

> > These gunas may interact to determine the nature of the material

> > world. Brahman is the inner Self or spirit (purusha) of prakriti.

> > Thus, reality is both material and spiritual. Spiritual reality

> may

> > transform material reality. Plurality is not unreal unless it is

> > seen as replacing the unity of Brahman.

> >

> > Ramanuja's Visishtadvaita Vedanta (or philosophy of qualified non-

> > dualism) has some important differences from Shankara's Advaita

> > Vedanta (or philosophy of non-dualism). For Shankara,

> > undifferentiated Brahman is ultimate realty. For Ramanuja,

> > differentiated Brahman is ultimate reality. For Shankara,

> > undifferentiated Brahman can be known and experienced intuitively.

> > For Ramanuja, Brahman can only be known through its attributes,

> and

> > since Brahman has attributes which can be known and experienced

> > intuitively, it must be differentiated.

> >

> > For Shankara, maya is an illusory appearance of reality, occurring

> > when the plurality of the phenomenal world is superimposed on the

> > unity of Brahman. For Ramanuja, however, maya is real and is the

> > plurality of attributes which are manifested by Brahman. Maya is

> the

> > way in which Brahman is manifested in the phenomenal world.

>

>

> When it is said that Maya is illusion, it is reffered to its

> temporary and impermanent characteristic, while Brahman is that

> which is eternal, unmoving and permanent. So illusion really reffers

> to a non-permanent state. Only to understand and accept that all

> that is born must die, all that is created will be destroyed, all

> that implies evolution will have involution, that the yin needs the

> yang, black needs white. Brahman needs nothing. Since Brahman is

> permanent and eternal, it is said that it's Real. The real source

> and substratum of manifestation called maya or illusion.  Nothing

> wrong nor right with illusion or maya or body or mind. Only the

> points of view may keep man bounded or not. So it'a a matter of

> point of view (for the thinking mind).

>

> ml





yes, so true



I wanted to post something within

our discussion about viewing the ego

  in a forgiving light, since I can't

  put into words what I know about

the subject as intelligent as you I

Cut & Pasted the Ramajuna interview..

  I am not sure if it is from Ramana,

but this is not what I wanted to

highlight, so I'll come back dear

Maria Luisa



  love Karta

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "satkartar7"

<mi_nok@y...> wrote:

> Surrender of the ego...Bede Griffiths

>

>

> Ramanuja says that in pure knowledge there is no distinction

between

> the knowing subject and the known object. For the universal Self,

> there is no distinction between the knower and the known. For the

> individual Self, however, the 'I' or ego cannot be obliterated

> without obliterating the essential nature of the Self. The

> individual Self must have an I-consciousness which persists even

in

> the state of ultimate release. The 'I' or ego is not merely an

> attribute of the individual Self, but constitutes the nature of

the

> individual Self. Thus, the I-consciousness is not obliterated by

> knowledge of Brahman.

>

> The knowing subject is the 'I' or ego, which is a consciousness of

> the inward Self. The 'I' or ego is a form of knowledge,

constituting

> the essential nature of the Self. Thus, the released Self knows

the

> essential nature of the inward Self.

>

> Atman may take three forms: 1) it may be bound to the material

> world, 2) it may be released from the material world, and 3) it

may

> be eternal in its unity with Brahman. The bound Self identifies

> itself with the material world. The released Self is freed from

> attachment to the material world, and is aware of itself as a

> spiritual reality. Release from samsara (cyclic, worldly

existence)

> is a state of non-difference from the highest Self. The released

> Self is aware of the unity of Brahman.

>

> Ramanuja rejects the doctrine that the phenomenal world is

illusory

> and unreal. According to Ramanuja, the phenomenal world is not

> unreal unless it is viewed as distinct from Brahman. The

phenomenal

> world is not simply a realm of false and illusory appearances. The

> phenomenal world includes primordial matter (prakriti), which is

> part of the body of Brahman.

>

> Prakriti has three qualities (or gunas): 1) clarity (sattva), 2)

> activity (passion, rajas), and 3) inactivity (darkness, tamas).

> These gunas may interact to determine the nature of the material

> world. Brahman is the inner Self or spirit (purusha) of prakriti.

> Thus, reality is both material and spiritual. Spiritual reality

may

> transform material reality. Plurality is not unreal unless it is

> seen as replacing the unity of Brahman.

>

> Ramanuja's Visishtadvaita Vedanta (or philosophy of qualified non-

> dualism) has some important differences from Shankara's Advaita

> Vedanta (or philosophy of non-dualism). For Shankara,

> undifferentiated Brahman is ultimate realty. For Ramanuja,

> differentiated Brahman is ultimate reality. For Shankara,

> undifferentiated Brahman can be known and experienced intuitively.

> For Ramanuja, Brahman can only be known through its attributes,

and

> since Brahman has attributes which can be known and experienced

> intuitively, it must be differentiated.

>

> For Shankara, maya is an illusory appearance of reality, occurring

> when the plurality of the phenomenal world is superimposed on the

> unity of Brahman. For Ramanuja, however, maya is real and is the

> plurality of attributes which are manifested by Brahman. Maya is

the

> way in which Brahman is manifested in the phenomenal world.





When it is said that Maya is illusion, it is reffered to its

temporary and impermanent characteristic, while Brahman is that

which is eternal, unmoving and permanent. So illusion really reffers

to a non-permanent state. Only to understand and accept that all

that is born must die, all that is created will be destroyed, all

that implies evolution will have involution, that the yin needs the

yang, black needs white. Brahman needs nothing. Since Brahman is

permanent and eternal, it is said that it's Real. The real source

and substratum of manifestation called maya or illusion.  Nothing

wrong nor right with illusion or maya or body or mind. Only the

points of view may keep man bounded or not. So it'a a matter of

point of view (for the thinking mind).



ml

Surrender of the ego...Bede Griffiths





Ramanuja says that in pure knowledge there is no distinction between

the knowing subject and the known object. For the universal Self,

there is no distinction between the knower and the known. For the

individual Self, however, the 'I' or ego cannot be obliterated

without obliterating the essential nature of the Self. The

individual Self must have an I-consciousness which persists even in

the state of ultimate release. The 'I' or ego is not merely an

attribute of the individual Self, but constitutes the nature of the

individual Self. Thus, the I-consciousness is not obliterated by

knowledge of Brahman.



The knowing subject is the 'I' or ego, which is a consciousness of

the inward Self. The 'I' or ego is a form of knowledge, constituting

the essential nature of the Self. Thus, the released Self knows the

essential nature of the inward Self.



Atman may take three forms: 1) it may be bound to the material

world, 2) it may be released from the material world, and 3) it may

be eternal in its unity with Brahman. The bound Self identifies

itself with the material world. The released Self is freed from

attachment to the material world, and is aware of itself as a

spiritual reality. Release from samsara (cyclic, worldly existence)

is a state of non-difference from the highest Self. The released

Self is aware of the unity of Brahman.



Ramanuja rejects the doctrine that the phenomenal world is illusory

and unreal. According to Ramanuja, the phenomenal world is not

unreal unless it is viewed as distinct from Brahman. The phenomenal

world is not simply a realm of false and illusory appearances. The

phenomenal world includes primordial matter (prakriti), which is

part of the body of Brahman.



Prakriti has three qualities (or gunas): 1) clarity (sattva), 2)

activity (passion, rajas), and 3) inactivity (darkness, tamas).

These gunas may interact to determine the nature of the material

world. Brahman is the inner Self or spirit (purusha) of prakriti.

Thus, reality is both material and spiritual. Spiritual reality may

transform material reality. Plurality is not unreal unless it is

seen as replacing the unity of Brahman.



Ramanuja's Visishtadvaita Vedanta (or philosophy of qualified non-

dualism) has some important differences from Shankara's Advaita

Vedanta (or philosophy of non-dualism). For Shankara,

undifferentiated Brahman is ultimate realty. For Ramanuja,

differentiated Brahman is ultimate reality. For Shankara,

undifferentiated Brahman can be known and experienced intuitively.

For Ramanuja, Brahman can only be known through its attributes, and

since Brahman has attributes which can be known and experienced

intuitively, it must be differentiated.



For Shankara, maya is an illusory appearance of reality, occurring

when the plurality of the phenomenal world is superimposed on the

unity of Brahman. For Ramanuja, however, maya is real and is the

plurality of attributes which are manifested by Brahman. Maya is the

way in which Brahman is manifested in the phenomenal world.