-----Original Message-----
From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Gunther von Sachsenhausen
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 4:50 PM
To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Question about history of dowel joinery use.

Ok, so I searched back through the earlier posts, and it looks like
this is a new-ish topic. Has the use of dowels in joinery been
documented in the medieval era? Is this the right forum for this
question?

Yours in Service,
Lord Gunther von Sachsenhausen
SCA Member number 98792

----- Original Message -----

From: Gunther von Sachsenhausen

To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 5:49 PM

Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Question about history of dowel joinery use.

Ok, so I searched back through the earlier posts, and it looks like
this is a new-ish topic. Has the use of dowels in joinery been
documented in the medieval era? Is this the right forum for this
question?

Yours in Service,
Lord Gunther von Sachsenhausen
SCA Member number 98792

While at Potrero war the head of my SCA household and one of the
members pitched in together and bought what they thought were the last
3 beds a merchant had who was closing down her store after the death
of her husband. They ended up buying three sets of bed posts, but four
sets of bed rails. That's not the real issue though. I have finished
sanding one set of bed rails, and it turned out that I had to re-cut
the interlocking notches on some of the rails, and the bed was poorly
enginered. The foot board and the head board are lower then the side
rails. If I were to have enginered the bed I would have made at the
very least the head board higher then the side rails, or both the head
and foot boards. This particular set of bed rails were also probably
the last ones he made before he had his heart attack because they
pieces that hold the mattress are poorly assembled. Fortunatly this
was the only set of rails that had the mattress supports already
attached so I can finish the remaining ones a bit better.

Hey all

looking for somewhere that has the instuction on the breadball or
pingpong ball fireing crossbow and how to make it anyone who know

PLEASE let me know

Alexander Duncan MacKay

Ian Serle

True love is your soul's recognition of its counterpoint in another.


MSN: steelway@...

LOOKING AT LIFE IN A ODD WAY AND LOVING IT

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Thanks for the excellent answers and examples. I had no idea trenails
(dowels) went that far back.
So it sounds like, with the drill and lathe technology they had, they
could use trenails to join wood at corners and join planks face-to-
face, but not edge-to-edge. Would that be an accurate statement?

With that in mind, I will be using dowels anywhere one might use a
biscuit, just because I think dowels are stronger.

That's an excellent question, and I should clarify what I'm asking
about. I believe I may be asking about the use of dowels as pins, but
I'm not sure. I am not familiar with stretchers or spindles, but I
would enjoy reading any resources you could refer me to. Please give
me some links so that I can investigate this more effectively.
Gunther







--- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Bill McNutt" <mcnutt@...>
wrote:
>
> As a stretcher, spindle, or pin?
>
>
>
> Will
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gunther von
> Sachsenhausen
> Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 5:24 PM
> To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Dowel history question
>
>
>
> I suspect that this has already been discussed, so refer me to an
> earlier post if necessary.
> My question is: how far back in history can we document the use of
> dowels in joinery?
> Gunther
>

Heck, who needs a lathe?  A sufficiently sharp blade and a little bit of
time yields an "eye-ball close enough" dowel, regardless of the size or
roundness (or lack of) of the hole.

Yes, it's a bit more time-consuming - but isn't that what apprentices
were for? :-)

Gunther von Sachsenhausen wrote:
> Thanks for the excellent answers and examples. I had no idea trenails
> (dowels) went that far back.
> So it sounds like, with the drill and lathe technology they had, they
> could use trenails to join wood at corners and join planks face-to-
> face, but not edge-to-edge. Would that be an accurate statement?
>
> With that in mind, I will be using dowels anywhere one might use a
> biscuit, just because I think dowels are stronger.
>
>
>

Pins - used to hold one piece of wood to another, often not seen except
for a round circle on the face of one piece of wood;

Stretcher - round or shaped piece of wood used, for instance, between
the legs of chairs (think "where you rest your feet when sitting on a
bar-stool"), also known as rungs;

Spindle - round or shaped vertical pieces, running up the back of a
chair or from the top of the seat to the bottom of the arm.

(and if I'm wrong, Master Will will have me sweeping out the shop for
the next 20 years!)

Gunther von Sachsenhausen wrote:
> That's an excellent question, and I should clarify what I'm asking
> about. I believe I may be asking about the use of dowels as pins, but
> I'm not sure. I am not familiar with stretchers or spindles, but I
> would enjoy reading any resources you could refer me to. Please give
> me some links so that I can investigate this more effectively.
> Gunther
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Bill McNutt" <mcnutt@...>
> wrote:
>> As a stretcher, spindle, or pin?
>>
>>
>>
>> Will
>>
>>
>>
>>   _____
>>
>> From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
>> [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gunther von
>> Sachsenhausen
>> Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 5:24 PM
>> To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Dowel history question
>>
>>
>>
>> I suspect that this has already been discussed, so refer me to an
>> earlier post if necessary.
>> My question is: how far back in history can we document the use of
>> dowels in joinery?
>> Gunther
>>
>
>
>

And from the briney deep ...

the greeks joined the planks of their ships
edge-to-edge with floating tenons. Just what you need,
more options.

-Malcolm

--- Gunther von Sachsenhausen
<gunther_von_sachsenhausen@...> wrote:

> Thanks for the excellent answers and examples. I had
> no idea trenails
> (dowels) went that far back.
> So it sounds like, with the drill and lathe
> technology they had, they
> could use trenails to join wood at corners and join
> planks face-to-
> face, but not edge-to-edge. Would that be an
> accurate statement?
>
> With that in mind, I will be using dowels anywhere
> one might use a
> biscuit, just because I think dowels are stronger.
>
>
>




________________________________________________________________________________\
____Choose the right car based on your needs.  Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car
Finder tool.
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The Egytian 'Mummy Boxes' I saw in a museum all had 45 degree miter joints on
the broad board ends, actually.  Butted up to each other that way.  The wooden
dowel 'nails' that then held the boards together were then drilled in at a 45 to
the face of the board and the ends were trimmed off.  These dowel were many
(every 2 inches or so) and as big around as my thumb.  The joint looks
exceedingly weak to my eyes until I remember that the box doesn't get much use. 
Make the box, paint the box, shove a dead guy in -- all wrapped up in linen,
carry the box to a tomb, then set it down in the tomb.  Not much stress is put
on the joint after that last part.

This box is the decorated wooden inner casket and the burial place of lesser
Egyptian folk.  The Pharoah got much nicer stone digs on the outer box.

Sure the joint LOOKS primitive, but I am trying to think how I'd go about making
it with bronze age tools and make it look as good as the Egyptian craftsman did
without blowing out the end of the piece with a split drilling of pounding the
dowel home.  I am at a bit of a loss.

--
-Chris Schwartz
Silver Spring, MD

  -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Gunther von Sachsenhausen" <gunther_von_sachsenhausen@...>
> Thanks for the excellent answers and examples. I had no idea trenails
> (dowels) went that far back.
> So it sounds like, with the drill and lathe technology they had, they
> could use trenails to join wood at corners and join planks face-to-
> face, but not edge-to-edge. Would that be an accurate statement?
>
> With that in mind, I will be using dowels anywhere one might use a
> biscuit, just because I think dowels are stronger.
>
>
>

I'd never make a dowel on a lathe.  Too time consuming.   Unless the 'dowel' 
was really a round tenon end on a turned spindle part.  A drawknife or just a
carving knife that sorta rounds out a riven piece of stuff is more than enough
sophistication for a drawbore dowel or a dowel for a barrel head edge joinery. 
If I was REALLY trying to be fancy I might use a metal sizing plate like this:
  http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?grp=1239



--
-Chris Schwartz
Silver Spring, MD



  -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: WR <wolfeyes@...>
> Heck, who needs a lathe?  A sufficiently sharp blade and a little bit of
> time yields an "eye-ball close enough" dowel, regardless of the size or
> roundness (or lack of) of the hole.
>
> Yes, it's a bit more time-consuming - but isn't that what apprentices
> were for? :-)
>
> Gunther von Sachsenhausen wrote:
> > Thanks for the excellent answers and examples. I had no idea trenails
> > (dowels) went that far back.
> > So it sounds like, with the drill and lathe technology they had, they
> > could use trenails to join wood at corners and join planks face-to-
> > face, but not edge-to-edge. Would that be an accurate statement?
> >
> > With that in mind, I will be using dowels anywhere one might use a
> > biscuit, just because I think dowels are stronger.
> >
> >
> >

If we must police each others language, can we at least
have the courtesy to do so privately and off list?

One can be bothered by language choices, without being
"offended".  One can be "offended" without wanting to
control what other people say.  One can attempt to control
what other people say, without boring other folks.

YES: I am being a bore. :-)

	 Tibor

JBRMM266@... wrote:
>
>
> Not sure why the citation disappeared, but here it is:
>
>
> Chris Schwartz wrote:
>
> "Make the box, paint the box, shove a dead guy in -- "
>
>
> I find that expression crass and disrespectful of the dead. Would it
> have been any harder to type something like "put the mummy in" ?
>
>
> Donal Mac Ruiseart
> mka Jeb Raitt
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

No, you were not being a bore (or a boor <snicker).

Another was.

Lia

Mark Schuldenfrei wrote:
> If we must police each others language, can we at least
> have the courtesy to do so privately and off list?
>
> One can be bothered by language choices, without being
> "offended".  One can be "offended" without wanting to
> control what other people say.  One can attempt to control
> what other people say, without boring other folks.
>
> YES: I am being a bore. :-)
>
>  Tibor
>

> So it sounds like, with the drill and lathe technology they had, they
> could use trenails to join wood at corners and join planks face-to-
> face, but not edge-to-edge. Would that be an accurate statement?
>

Not necessarily.  I've seen a German chest, in the Cologne Museum of
Applied Arts, that had a lid made of two boards edge-joined, and at one
end where it was badly worn, it looked like there was a dowel across the
joint.  Of course it's difficult to be sure when that might have been
put in - maybe not original.  The lid has been repaired at least once,
with hand-forged iron nails in addition to the (probably original)
treenails.  Unfortunately the photo I took is crap, too blurry to see
anything clearly.  The chest is Inv. No. A792, "Frontstollentruhe mit
MaBwerk, Westfalen (Osnabruck?), um 1400."

That's the only example I can recall of a medieval piece that appeared
to have been edge-joined with dowels.

> With that in mind, I will be using dowels anywhere one might use a
> biscuit, just because I think dowels are stronger.
>

I doubt that very much.  The evidence I've seen in various magazines
suggests otherwise.

Cheers,
Colin

Greetings Sawdust-makers,

I finally have some of the professional photos of the new West Kingdom
Court Thrones up on the Web:
http://www.albionworks.com/Thrones/WKCourt/

Can't help feeling kinda proud of these!  Especially now that the cuts
have all healed.  (Those Japanese razor saws make nasty wounds.)

All praise to Eric for the artistic design and carving execution.  I
take blame/credit for joinery and those @#$%&*! pinnacles.

Cheers,
Colin

--- Ian Serle <steelway@...> wrote:

> Hey all
>
> looking for somewhere that has the instuction on the breadball or
> pingpong ball fireing crossbow and how to make it anyone who know
>
> PLEASE let me know

   Darn it, for a second there I thought you were proposing crossbow
ammunition involving breadballs or ping-pong balls of fire.  Then I
shattered my dreams by rereading your message.  I don't suppose you'd
consider shooting fiery balls o' doom?

   As for instructions - a pellet crossbow (as used in period for
bird-hunting) is basically a small crossbow with a double string.  A
cup holds the pellet or bullet (sometimes metal but it can be clay) at
the point just above where the bolt would normally sit.  One design
I've heard about uses a small knob on the bottom of the cup that rides
in a groove in the top of the tiller.  If you do that, make sure the
fit is exact or it will bind.  An alternate solution involved ears on
each side of the cup that ride the sides of the tiller.  One way or
another, the pellet cup needs to ride smoothly along the top of the
tiller to avoid dinging the pellet off the tiller.  This usually means
smoothing both surfaces carefully and, possibly, waxing one or the
other.

Goetz




________________________________________________________________________________\
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----- Original Message -----

From: Gunther von Sachsenhausen

To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 3:17 PM

Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Question about history of dowel joinery use.

Thanks for the excellent answers and examples. I had no idea trenails
(dowels) went that far back.
So it sounds like, with the drill and lathe technology they had, they
could use trenails to join wood at corners and join planks face-to-
face, but not edge-to-edge. Would that be an accurate statement?

With that in mind, I will be using dowels anywhere one might use a
biscuit, just because I think dowels are stronger.

Thanks for the excellent answers and examples. I had no idea trenails
(dowels) went that far back.
So it sounds like, with the drill and lathe technology they had, they could use trenails to join wood at corners and join planks face-to-face, but not edge-to-edge. Would that be an accurate statement?

With that in mind, I will be using dowels anywhere one might use a biscuit, just because I think dowels are stronger.

.

are there any simple simple simple plans for beds looking for a full of
queen size
(did i mention simple?)

well ....

You can take a regular doube or queen size frame (the metal one, comes
apart, usually get one free with a mattress?) and use that as your base.
Get 4x4 and cut into chunks however high you'll need. Find the center of
the 4x4 chunk (if you draw a diagonal from corner to corner then x that
with another between the other corners, where the lines cross is the
center). Use a drill and drill out enough of a hole the leg of the frame
fits in there (take off the wheels or the flat base). Put a LARGE washer
in the hole. This keeps the frame from digging into the wood. Put the
legs in the hole and Voila -- with a long bedcovering, only thing anyone
will see is 4 wood feet.  To support the mattress, you can cut sheets of
plywood (thick is GOOD for support!) and lay them across the bed -- side
to side -- keep it to even numbers and it's easier to cut. 4 sections
should be easy to pack. 6 would be thinner but the same "length" (the
length being the width of your bed). You can move these around and turn
them over to keep the bowing at the minimum. You can make or buy a head
board that will screw to the frame if you want.

For the legs, Start at 18" and give yourself a good deep cut ... maybe
6". Also, for more "support" you can get preformed molding (like you use
for your walls) and build out the bottoms a bit. But, a deep enough hole
and the weight of the bed shold keep the thing from shfiting -- just
don't throw yourself into the bed at night!

Lia

Nikki wrote:
>
> are there any simple simple simple plans for beds looking for a full of
> queen size
> (did i mention simple?)
>

--- Nikki <ebonyenchantress1@...> wrote:

> are there any simple simple simple plans for beds looking for a full
> of
> queen size
> (did i mention simple?)

   Buy a Honda Element.  With the seats all flat, the interior fits a
queen-sized air matress from Wal-Mart.  The original designer worked in
the US, got to like camping, and wanted to use his gear in Japan (at
least that's the story).  Barring that...

   How simple?  Is a wedged mortise joint simple enough?

Goetz




________________________________________________________________________________\
____
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Be careful of the cup on the string thing they have a nasty habit of
shooting both forward and backward if the string is not perfect.  The story
is that Iolo will not build any because he got hit in the face with a
pellet!  True or not it is a good story.

James Cunningham
Still not building Crossbows
> looking for somewhere that has the instuction on the breadball or
> pingpong ball fireing crossbow and how to make it anyone who know
>
> PLEASE let me know

As for instructions - a pellet crossbow (as used in period for
bird-hunting) is basically a small crossbow with a double string. A
cup holds the pellet or bullet (sometimes metal but it can be clay) at
the point just above where the bolt would normally sit.

--- "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...> wrote:

> Be careful of the cup on the string thing they have a nasty habit of
> shooting both forward and backward if the string is not perfect.  The
> story is that Iolo will not build any because he got hit in the face
> with a pellet!  True or not it is a good story.

   The prod needs to be angled so the string is not being pulled
off-line (true with all crossbows that I know about).  The string is
actually more of a sling-like affair.  The first few inches of the
string from each end of the prod is a single string per normal.  The
two strings (top and bottom) which hold the bullet cup run parallel out
to a small stretcher made of some rigid substance.  The single strings
hook to the rigid stretchers.

   The problem you mention arises, in part, from using a leather patch
like a slingshot instead of a more rigid cup.  Either type can spring
around if there isn't sufficient surface on the top of the tiller to
prevent it.

Goetz




________________________________________________________________________________\
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Excellent point Rebekah, I hadn't considered seasonal expansion. I
have to remember that wood is dynamic. Being a big fan of Arts &
Crafts, I'm sold on mortise & tenon. I think I'll give biscuits
another look. Heck if Norm Abrams uses them, they can't be all bad.
Thanks for the perspective.

--- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Rebekah d'Avignon
<rebekahdavignon@...> wrote:
>
> I used to think that as well, and in some cases it's true. But
there are several things to consider.
>      Biscuits allow for seasonal wood expansion, dowels don't
>      With modern wood glues a glued joint is, in most cases, strong
enough (this comes from St Norm Abrams and St Roy Underhill)
>      Biscuits are used more for ease of alignment in edge-to-edge
jointing and add *a little strength* to joints that may bear weight
(chair seats and backs that don't have breadboard edges which are
really superior)
>      A number of anitique chairs have dowels joining the seatframe
to the rear legs, but there are other joints with superior holding
power (with or without glue) such as drawn mortise/tenon (called
pegged m/t) and both kinds of blind dovetail joints (the sliding
dovetail and the one that is permanent). The permanent dovetail is
most found in Shaker-style furniture....which is one reason that it
held so well and can be so hard to repair.
>
>   Of course hand-cut mortises are a pain to cut without a mortiser
and have fallen out of favor because of the cost of man-hours of
labor in a mass-production world. A new chair today probably won't
last long enough to pass down to grandchildren, but a hand-made
child's rocker made with "proper" joints (drawn m/t and dovetails)
can be passed to great-grandchildren. In fact there are rush-seated
chairs (rushes are twisted cattail leaves) from the 19th century that
are still in use - not in museums, in use - today.
>
> Gunther von Sachsenhausen <gunther_von_sachsenhausen@...> wrote:
>           Thanks for the excellent answers and examples. I had no
idea trenails
> (dowels) went that far back.
> So it sounds like, with the drill and lathe technology they had,
they could use trenails to join wood at corners and join planks face-
to-face, but not edge-to-edge. Would that be an accurate statement?
>
> With that in mind, I will be using dowels anywhere one might use a
biscuit, just because I think dowels are stronger.
>
>
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