>1) the shoes were worn by themselves, primarily indoors or around the
home,
but when much foot travel was to be done, pattens were worn the majority of
the time.  Or. . .

I'm not sure pattens could be worn for long periods of walking or servere
discomfort, basically I find the pretty useless, unless you are going
straight from A to B (short distance) and want to keep your feet dry &
warmer. You certainly can work on the land with them, or near animals you
want to get out of the way of quickly :)

>2) we are just underestimating the toughness of these people's feet.
After
all, there are many cultures today who go barefoot exclusively.  Those
furry
Gaelic curarans I wear have only the thickness of one deer or cow hide and
yet
that is what the Gaels wore for over 2000 years.  Just because our modern
tootsies are sensitive just means we are papmered.

I'm sure you are I go barefoot most of the summer & in costume in wet
coditions in preferance to wearing shoes, as I prefer wet feet that dry
easily than feet with damp lumps of leather on them :) I had an op on my
foot a few years ago the surgen complained I had skin like rhino hide, I've
also troddon on glass barefoot without it cutting and walked around the
Lake District (England) on an event where we skirmish through a large wood
all day, most od which is covered with slaty sharp stones.

As a youngster, when I waLKED A LOT, I'd do it barefoot and that way I
NEVER got blisters from my walking books and that was 20 + miles a day.

Mel

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In a message dated 03/02/99 04:20:27 PM, gregsta@... wrote:

<<I just recently got back from the Bata Museum in Toronto after examining

their Medieval shoe collection.  The weight of the uppers and the soles that

I could measure were a consistent 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 ounce weight leather.  Much

lighter than I expected.  I used a professional leather gauge to determine

this.  As far as I could tell, there was no compression or shrinkage to be

accounted for in these examples.  These were all of a turn-shoe style,

including the ankle and calf boots.  They were from a period of roughly 1200

ad to 1450 ad.



Hope this helps,



Gawain Kilgore>>

I've always wanted to get to that museum. Were you able to determine the type
of leather used in the footwear that you were able to examine? That might have
a bearing on the thickness question.

Uilliam

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Hello all you leather people. I am new to this list and am looking forward to
learning/sharing information concerning medieval leatherworking.

I am in the SCA and work as a boot/shoe maker and leathersmith. I live in
Southern California (Kingdom of Caid). My name is William Stephenson and I'm
known in the Society as Uilliam an Tarbh Baile na hAbhann, Baron of Dreiburgen
(shortened to Baron Liam most of the time).

I've made turn shoes and boots, knife sheaths, sword scabards, pouches, belts,
Roman caligae, Celtic ghillies.

Lets type.

Uilliam

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In a message dated 03/02/99 02:23:22 PM, lapdcop5150@... wrote:

<<Hello all.  I too have just joined the list.  My current projects are
leather cuir boilli brigandine and leather boots.

E. J. Brownlow>>

What kind of boots are you working on?

Uilliam an Tarbh

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In a message dated 3/2/99 8:35:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, matt@...
writes:

> It's very interesting that the soles are that thin, though.  I would
>  have expected them to be at least 5-6 oz.  I can see that I'm going to
>  have to reconsider what I've been doing...

Gawain,

I didn't think to ask you this weekend, but were there any variations on the
shoes you looked at as far as sole weight is concerned?  I take the thinness
of the soles to mean one of two things:
1) the shoes were worn by themselves, primarily indoors or around the home,
but when much foot travel was to be done, pattens were worn the majority of
the time.  Or. . .
2) we are just underestimating the toughness of these people's feet.  After
all, there are many cultures today who go barefoot exclusively.  Those furry
Gaelic curarans I wear have only the thickness of one deer or cow hide and yet
that is what the Gaels wore for over 2000 years.  Just because our modern
tootsies are sensitive just means we are papmered.

But my main point in asking is this--if you found evidence of some soles that
were thicker and heavier, perhaps that meant that those shoes were meant to be
worn without pattens.  That would give us a better idea of the use of pattens
in period.

Aye,
Eogan Og

============================================
Tighearn Eoghan Og Mac Labhrainn, CP
Sangster of Scotland and Atlantia
Chronicler of the Militant Society of Bards
<A HREF="http://www3.wcu.edu/~mn13189/sca.htm">
http://www3.wcu.edu/~mn13189/sca.htm</A>
Checky Or & Vert, two lions combattant, tails knowed, in base a
mouse couchant, all within an orle of roundels, Argent.
============================================
"A! Fredome is a noble thing. . ."  --John Barbour in The Bruce, 1375
============================================

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Would the gentleman who just wrote me please drop me another note.  I
inadvertantly deleted your message.

Thank you

Marc

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I'm in the process of working up all of my notes currently.  I plan on
posting this information, along with pictures of each shoe, on my website
once I get it all organized and webbed.  I'll post the list when it is ready
<projected to be sometime in the next two weeks>. :)

Gawain Kilgore

> This is great stuff!  Is there any chance that you could post all your
> data?  I'm particularly interested in whether there are variations in
> thickness in different periods, and whether there are variations
> between shoes, ankle boot and calf boots.
>
> It's very interesting that the soles are that thin, though.  I would
> have expected them to be at least 5-6 oz.  I can see that I'm going to
> have to reconsider what I've been doing...
>
> Thanks again!
>
> Matt Larsen
> matt@...
> --
>
>
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Greetings all,
	 The information on the Pilgrims' bag I alluded to in an earlier post is
this:

	 Master of the St Bartholomew Altarpiece
	 (active about 1470-1510)
	 Triptych, the Virgin and Child in Glory


	 This is actually reproduced on a Christmas greeting card that folds
like a triptych, and is an interior door panel.  The subject is "Saint
Iacobus"
	 The Card is copywrited by National Gallery Publications Ltd 1989, Great
Britain.  I believe it was part of a set purchased from the "Past Times"
catalogue, sorry no handy contact info.
	 There are several interesting details- there is a buckled cross strap
(buckle to the front of the body) above the bag itself just above the
curve of St Jacob's hip the bag laying curved around the hip lower. The
carrying strap inserts diagonally into the seams at the top of the bag,
and the top flap, which is a rounded rectangle, is closed by a tie
through two holes.  The bag itself is of white, possible tawed, leather,
the tie is red, and there appears to perhaps be a red binding on the
flap.
	 Anyone in the UK who can go over to the National Gallery and check for
us?
  	 Ive had my bag in this style for a while, and short of the fact that
you cant get too many beer bottles into it, it is an excellent size,
just right for concealing modern 8 1/2 by 11 documents and books.

Peter Adams

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Gregory Stapleton writes:
> I just recently got back from the Bata Museum in Toronto after examining
> their Medieval shoe collection.  The weight of the uppers and the soles that
> I could measure were a consistent 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 ounce weight leather.  Much
> lighter than I expected.  I used a professional leather gauge to determine
> this.  As far as I could tell, there was no compression or shrinkage to be
> accounted for in these examples.  These were all of a turn-shoe style,
> including the ankle and calf boots.  They were from a period of roughly 1200
> ad to 1450 ad.

This is great stuff!  Is there any chance that you could post all your
data?  I'm particularly interested in whether there are variations in
thickness in different periods, and whether there are variations
between shoes, ankle boot and calf boots.

It's very interesting that the soles are that thin, though.  I would
have expected them to be at least 5-6 oz.  I can see that I'm going to
have to reconsider what I've been doing...

Thanks again!

Matt Larsen
matt@...
--


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I am a newbie to the leather working hobbies but am eager and willing to
learn. I look forward to some interesting conversation.

I am in the SCA and my persona is ,Sean Matthew McLydon, a irish warrior from
the early  1300's so leather seems to be the way to go. I love to work it but
need a bit of instruction.

SMML


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I just recently got back from the Bata Museum in Toronto after examining
their Medieval shoe collection.  The weight of the uppers and the soles that
I could measure were a consistent 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 ounce weight leather.  Much
lighter than I expected.  I used a professional leather gauge to determine
this.  As far as I could tell, there was no compression or shrinkage to be
accounted for in these examples.  These were all of a turn-shoe style,
including the ankle and calf boots.  They were from a period of roughly 1200
ad to 1450 ad.

Hope this helps,

Gawain Kilgore
> I generally use fairly thick leather for the soles of shoes I make,
> roughly 10-12 oz, and I use somewhere between about 4-6 oz leather for
> uppers, depending on whether I'm making a boot or a shoe.  But while
> I've used what I've seen in museums to guide these choices, I'd perfer
> to be on firmer ground, so if anyone has any real data I'd love to
> hear about it...
>
> Matt Larsen
> matt@...
> --
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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lib_imc@... writes:
> > museums all look to be fairly thin, roughly 4 oz leather or so.  But I
> > know that leather typically shrinks in the conservation process, and
> > I'm uncertain how much that affects the thickness of the leather.  Any
> > thoughts?
>
> If I'm not mistaken, which is of course entirely possible the way this week's
> going, the leather can get a little thinner, but usually when they talk about
> shrinkage, they are referring to surface area.  OTOH, I think you
> would want slightly thicker leather for the sole.

Sorry, I guess I should have made it clear I was talking uppers only.
Yes, one certainly wants thicker leather for the sole.  Though the
same applies there; from what I've seen in museums, the soles are
thiner than I'd expect, probably in the range of 6-8 oz leather or
less.

I generally use fairly thick leather for the soles of shoes I make,
roughly 10-12 oz, and I use somewhere between about 4-6 oz leather for
uppers, depending on whether I'm making a boot or a shoe.  But while
I've used what I've seen in museums to guide these choices, I'd perfer
to be on firmer ground, so if anyone has any real data I'd love to
hear about it...

Matt Larsen
matt@...
--



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Hello all,

Actually I'm not a leatherworker, but I got on this newsgroup for my
husband, Wolfram of Bear Mountain, who most definitely is but doesn't spend
much time online.  He has been studying shoemaking for a few years now but
spends most of his time hand carving leather belts and pouches and making
whips.

My interest in leatherwork comes under the guise of Elizabethan costuming
but I haven't been brave enough yet to try it.  I want to make period
leather gloves and would love to talk to anyone else who has a similar
disposition.

Mistress Tireachan
Artemisia

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Hi All,

I guess I did not really introduce myself with my first post to this
list.

My name is Stephen Wyley (most people call me Sven), I am a veteran of
the New Varangian Guard Inc. An Australian re-enactment organization
portraying the enemies and allies of the Byzantine Empire between the
9th century and the 13th century.

I am a combatant (with a bias these days for Projectile Combat and I
have an operating traction trebuchet), an archer (I also compete in
State and National competitions in the longbow section), a crafter
(arrows, leather work (quivers, boots, etc. etc.), wood work (Viking
tables, stools, chests, etc. etc.), metal work (swords, helms, etc.
etc.), reseacher (see web page for some of my work).



  Bye for now,

Stephen Francis Wyley,
Technical Officer,
(Plant Tissue Culture and Soil Science),
Earth Sciences, NMIT.

***************************************************

For "Historical" and "How to" articles by me see;

http://www.iinet.net.au/~expo/sven/index.html

Articles in the Pipeline; "A Method of Reproduction of the Voxtorp
Church Chest, circa 1200 A.D."

"The Effects on Women During Siege Warfare in the Medieval Period."

Latest Article; "A Collation of Tents in Manuscripts and other extant
remains from the 1st Century to the 17th Century - Part 1, 1st
century to the 13th century."

Thanks to Bill McConnell for webbing this information.

***************************************************

"You Bastards! You've killed Svennie!" Russel Miners, Grey Company,
Past Times Event, October 1998.

***************************************************


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My best regards to you all, I am Peter Adams, also a reenactor, Scadian,
and leatherworker (though not by trade)  I am interested in both
technical and academic aspects of medieval material culture, and as a
player at the medieval theme, I have had great need for leather objects.
	 My project list includes turn shoes and boots, one pair of welted
boots, bottles, costrels, bombards and jacks, as well as pouches, belts,
wood reinforced sheathes, knife sheaths and an archers bracer, taken
from various archaelogical sources.  I have dyed leather with walnut
stain, and made a leather buckler from the 16th c. with iron and brass
parts.  I use a lot of hand made brass and pewter reproduction fittings,
available from a number of craftsmen.
	 If I ever get a scanner, i have a very nice picture of a 15th century
pilgrims bag that has some design variation from the 11th c bag on the
Stephan Wylie page.  This came out very nicely with some 14th c repro
buckles.  Ill find the name and date of the painting for my next post...
	 I have heard that adding beeswax to your brewers pitch will help
prevent cracking, does anyone know what proportions are good?


	 I look forward to a lot of discussion on this list, hope we got some
aces to help me out here :)
	 Peter Adams

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> museums all look to be fairly thin, roughly 4 oz leather or so.  But I
> know that leather typically shrinks in the conservation process, and
> I'm uncertain how much that affects the thickness of the leather.  Any
> thoughts?

If I'm not mistaken, which is of course entirely possible the way this week's
going, the leather can get a little thinner, but usually when they talk about
shrinkage, they are referring to surface area.  OTOH, I think you would want
slightly thicker leather for the sole.

Marc

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Hello all.  I too have just joined the list.  My current projects are
leather cuir boilli brigandine and leather boots.

E. J. Brownlow
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Hi all,

I'm Matt Larsen, and I've just found out about this list, so I thought
I'd say Hi!  I'm primarily interested in medieval shoes, and I have a
specific question that I've been wondering about for at while.  What
thickness of leather was typically used in medieval shoes,
particularly before roughly 1500?  The extant shoes that I've seen in
museums all look to be fairly thin, roughly 4 oz leather or so.  But I
know that leather typically shrinks in the conservation process, and
I'm uncertain how much that affects the thickness of the leather.  Any
thoughts?

Matt Larsen
matt@...
--



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Hello everyone, I just joined the list server.  My name is Pete Darby
(SCA is Collum Makiswell)  I am a leathercrafter, brewer, archer and
heavy weapons fighter. My medieval leather projects have included
pouches(who hasn't), eastern and western european 11th century quivers,
12 century shoes, leather jacs, bottels and misc. projects.  It will be
fun getting to know everyone.


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>...email: aaa268@...

Thank you, I will see if I can track them down then.

Marc

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Hello all,

     Just thought I would introduce myself,  I am known in the SCA as Artimis
Woodcarver  mka Andrew Johnson.  I will soon have a web page up with samples
of pieces that I have carved into leather.  I think this list will be very
helpful and informitive.

   --Artimis
         Clan Blackhart



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Hi All,

I have just joined the list.

I have done some work in the field of reconstruction, see my article
on a "Pilgrim's Satchel" at http://www.iinet.net.au/~expo/sven


Bye for now,

Stephen Francis Wyley,
Technical Officer,
(Plant Tissue Culture and Soil Science),
Earth Sciences, NMIT.

***************************************************

For "Historical" and "How to" articles by me see;

http://www.iinet.net.au/~expo/sven/index.html

Articles in the Pipeline; "A Method of Reproduction of the Voxtorp
Church Chest, circa 1200 A.D."

"The Effects on Women During Siege Warfare in the Medieval Period."

Latest Article; "A Collation of Tents in Manuscripts and other extant
remains from the 1st Century to the 17th Century - Part 1, 1st
century to the 13th century."

Thanks to Bill McConnell for webbing this information.

***************************************************

"You Bastards! You've killed Svennie!" Russel Miners, Grey Company,
Past Times Event, October 1998.

***************************************************


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Hello, my name is Melanie Wilson, I'm in the UK and I just joined

Mel

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>Does anyone know if these people are on the Net?

Are they attached to the MOL ? if so probably if they are UK based give me
more info I'll try & find out.

Mel

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From Aaron

As per a web search, the following address/site came up.

http://sul-server-2.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/cdl/1998/0087.html

I'm off to work at the moment so will have to explore this later.

Enjoy in the meantime.

Aaron


At 03:47 PM 99/03/02 -0500, you wrote:
>If memory serves me, I've seen reference to them on the BAR site.  There may
>be a link there.  Here is some info I have:
>
>Archaeological Leather Group
>29 Railway Street, Cherry Hinton, Cambridge CB1 4LL. Tel: 01223 213089.
>email: aaa268@...
>F1994 Members 75
>Aims to explore all aspects of archaeological leather, including artefacts,
>production methods and conservation. Two meetings and two newsletters a
>year.
>
>Gawain

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   	          Aaron of the Black Mountains,
                         An avowed member of the
          *Order of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem*
        He is a Brother at Arms (Fighter) and at Office (Medic)
	                         ~~~~~~~
         Having taken vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience
	                  ..... He's poor!!......
                            One out of three isn't bad.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
	 Armorer, Sr. Marshall (H), Master Chirurgeon
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  mka - Bob Le Pine - bashful@... - Vancouver Canada

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If memory serves me, I've seen reference to them on the BAR site.  There may
be a link there.  Here is some info I have:

Archaeological Leather Group
29 Railway Street, Cherry Hinton, Cambridge CB1 4LL. Tel: 01223 213089.
email: aaa268@...
F1994 Members 75
Aims to explore all aspects of archaeological leather, including artefacts,
production methods and conservation. Two meetings and two newsletters a
year.

Gawain

<snip>
> Does anyone know if these people are on the Net?
>
> Marc
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Internet stocks: hype or reality?
> FT.com. The Financial Times online.
> Click here to access more than 3,000 worldwide sources
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>


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Does anyone know if these people are on the Net?

Marc

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Here are two places:
Zack White Leather Company in Ramseur, NC (336) 824-4488
The Leather Factory in Charlotte, NC (704) 335-1628

Gawain Kilgore / Gregory Stapleton

> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Morrow [mailto:achbar@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 1:03 PM
> To: medieval-leather@egroups.com
> Subject: [medieval-leather] Discount Leather
>
>
> Where can I get it in NC at a Good Price?
>
>
> Achbar
>

>

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Where can I get it in NC at a Good Price?


Achbar

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The purpose of this group is to share and further the knowledge of those persons
interested in the study of Medieval leather and leatherwork: It's uses, methods
of production, construction, decoration, etc..  All topics are open as long as
they are prior to the end of the Rennisance period (circa 1600 A.D. or so). 
Discussions of leather prior to the Medieval period are also acceptable, for
example, The Ice Man and his leather ensemble.

Group Manager: medieval-leather-owner@egroups.com

To subscribe, send a message to medieval-leather-subscribe@egroups.com or go to
the e-group's home page at http://www.egroups.com/list/medieval-leather