Dear John:
1) Here’s the best I can do.  The masoretic text at 2 Sam 23:1 has 
הַגֶּבֶר הֻקַם עָל מְשִׁיחַ אֱלֹהֵי
יַעֲקֹב “the man who was stood on the anointed God of Jacob.”  That
doesn’t makes sense, but the first two words – hagever hukam “the man who
was stood” – sounds like hagever hu kemo (הַגֶּבֶר הוּא
כְּמוֺ) “the man who (was) like.”  As anyone familiar with the New
Testament knows, David wasn’t himself  the anointed God of Jacob but only
prefigured – “was like” - Him.
2) The citation of DJD 17, 186 was correct, but the explanation not so.  The
Gothic Old Latin symbol was expanded to “Old Latin” not to “Lucianic
manuscripts.”  The connection between “Old Latin” and “Lucianic
manuscripts” is this: “Old Latin” designates marginal readings in old
Vulgate Bibles, which were collected by Sabatier and Vercellone and published in
1741 and 1864 respectively.  The Septuagint marginal readings - given by
Brooke/McLean at the bottoms of the pages - are hardly “Old Greek,” since
their authors, Aquila and Symmachus, worked long after the fixation of the Greek
text.  What then is “Old Greek?”  It is what came long after the oldest
surviving Greek manuscripts and yet carries a text predating them.   Just as the
Jews claim for their relatively young manuscript – Codex Leningrad dates from
the tenth century A.D. – originality, so the Lucianic text – whose vehicle
is five manuscripts from the tenth century A.D. – contains a tradition which
appears “old”er than that of the fourth century Codex Vaticanus.  The many
agreements between the Lucianic text and the Samuel scrolls from Qumran support
this view.
3) The list of אל/על confusions was done as a Word document, which was then
pasted into an email due to the tendency of hotmail to crash under the burden of
frequent keyboard changes from English to Greek to Hebrew with Tavultesoft for
the Greek.  The table format in the Word document became in the email a list,
and the underlining indicating the scroll evidence was lost.  Here it is with
some additions from 4QSam-b.
1 Sam 20:40: MT: And Jonathan gave his equipment to the lad,
Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-b: And Jonathan gave his equipment on the lad.
1 Sam 21:3: MT/4QSam-b: And the lads I made familiar with the place of some
anonymous fellow, Vaticanus/Lucianic: And to the lads I witnessed in the place
called ‘Faith of God.’
1 Sam 21:5: MT: There is not profane bread to under my hand,
Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-b: There is not profane bread under my hand.
1 Sam 27:10: MT: On the south of Judah and on the south of the Yarchmali and to
the south of the Keni, Vaticanus/Lucianic: On the south of Judaea and on the
south of Yesmaga and on the south of the Kenezi, 4QSam-a: [     ] and to the
south of Y[     ] and on the sou[th of.
1 Sam 31:3: MT: And the war was heavy to Saul, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-a: And
the was  heavy on Saul.
2 Sam 3:37: MT: And the king lamented to Abner, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-a: And
the king lamented over Abner.
2 Sam 4:2: Because also Beirut was counted upon Benjamin, Vaticanus/Lucianic:
Because (Lucianic + also) Beirut was counted to the sons of Benjamin, 4QSam-a: [
] to Benjamin.
There’s a noticeable tendency to agreement between the Greek and the scrolls. 
The commonality at 1 Sam 27:10 is that the Greek and the scroll tend toward a
triplet – the Greeks through uniformity of the preposition, the scroll through
triple divergence.  A careful reconstruction of the fragment shows that the
first preposition lacked and that the scroll read “south of Judah and to the
south of the Yarchmali and on the south of the Kenezei” with no preposition
then “to” then “on.”  At 2 Sam 14:30: אל ידי “to my hand”
4QSam-c has על ידי “on my hand,” which may be closer to
Vaticanus/Lucianic: “next to,” for which “on hand” is the normal
equivalent.
Andrew Fincke





To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
From: johnisaacmilton@...
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:50:06 -0400
Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1





Hi Ken and Dick,

It still seems that the 'al is superfluous in the MT. The verb qwm is
sufficient and not necessary to have the collocation of the verb and 'al .
Even the internal link or echo to 2 Sam 7:12 has only the verb qwm. Why does
the MT's reading add the substantive - how does it add to the reading?
Finally, can wee say that the kaige recension reflects the reading of 'al as
a preposition (breaking from the MT on its vocalization as well as its
accent)?

Best,

John

On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Saley, Richard <saley@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hi Ken,
>
> No wonder you were confused! My statement in the previous email that “the
> Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל” was erroneous! It
should
> have read: “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek was clearly אל.”
Apologies .
> . .
>
> I'm heartened, though, that despite my slipup you came to the right
> conclusion: "the OG had εις/προς, and that the επι was from the
kaige
> recension."
>
> Cheers,
> Dick
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
> Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
> Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
> Harvard University
> Six Divinity Avenue
> Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
> Tel: 617-495-4239
> Fax: 617-496-8904
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Penner [
> kpenner@...]
> Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 6:23 AM
> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
>
> Thanks for this helpful explanation, Dick.
>
>
>
> One confusion remains in my mind: do you think the OG here was εις/προς
or
> επι?
>
> In point #5 and 6 below, I would think the OG had εις/προς, and that
the
> επι was from the kaige recension, but earlier you spoke of “The Hebrew
> Vorlage of the Old Greek επι”.
>
>
>
> Ken
>
>
>
> Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
>
> Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:
>
> http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/
>
> kpenner@...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Saley,
> Richard
>
> Sent: October-16-11 7:56 PM
>
> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
>
> Cc: Saley, Richard
>
> Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Ken,
>
>
>
> In your last comments on the subject you state: 'I take it that the
> discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not
> the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from
על?'
> Actually, DJD 17 is attempting to establish the Vorlage of the Old Greek.
> Let me see if I can explain:
>
>
>
> 1) When all is said and done, the Old Greek for 2 Sam 23 is lost. The best
> mss for the Old Greek in the books of Samuel are B-y-a2. However, from 2 Sam
> 10:1 (or 11:2) though the end of 2 Sam the Old Greek has been overwritten by
> Kaige Greek, a late (1st cent. BCE?) revision of the Old Greek on the basis
> of the proto-Masoretic Hebrew text. This text reads επι which presumes
> Hebrew על as you have noted.
>
>
>
> 2) The main hexaplaric mss for Samuel are A-c-x. These also read επι,
> presuming על, and like B-y-a2 reflect a Masoretic-type text.
>
>
>
> 3) The Lucianic Greek texts b-o-c2-e2 read ο θεος which reflects a
Vorlage
> of אל (taken as the word 'God' and made subject of the [unpointed] verb
> הקם). The Old Latin, almost certainly rendering the Lucianic tradition,
also
> reflects Hebrew אל.
>
>
>
> 4) If you are using Rahlfs for your Septuagint text, it should be noted
> that Rahlfs is primarily based on the uncials Vaticanus (B), Sinaiticus (S)
> and Alexandrinus (A). Sinaiticus is not extant for this passge and Vaticanus
> and Alexandrinus both reflect the Masoretic reading as noted above. In
> addition, it should be stated that Rahlfs, despite all of his brilliance,
> completely misjudged the Lucianic tradition and considered it basically
> worthless (and hence for a passage as this, of no value).
>
>
>
> 5) The Qumran scrolls of 4QSam-a,b,c repeatedly reflect Hebrew Vorlagen
> that read אל in agreement with the Old Greek (1 Sam 1:1--2 Sam 9:13 [or
> 11:1]) reading of εις or προς (appearing also with regularity in the
> Lucianic tradition).
>
>
>
> 6) So, the bottom line is that we have EARLY witnesses in both Hebrew (and
> Greek) that reflect אל (εις/προς) and LATE witnesses in both Hebrew
(and
> Greek) that reflect על (επι). These data in Samuel, as well as other data
> elsewhere, strongly suggest that the difference is best accounted for by the
> process stated in DJD 17, i.e., the confusion of אל and על in late Hebrew
> occasioned by the weakening of the laryngeals and the coloring of the
> associated vowel of על to an ‘e’ sound.
>
>
>
> I hope this is helpful in understanding the write-up in DJD 17.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dick
>
>
>
>
>
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
>
> Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
>
> Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
>
> Harvard University
>
> Six Divinity Avenue
>
> Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
>
> Tel: 617-495-4239
>
> Fax: 617-496-8904
>
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
>
> From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [
> lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Ken Penner
> [kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>]
>
> Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:06 AM
>
> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
>
> Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
>
>
>
> Thanks, Andy.
>
>
>
> I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the
> original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι
> come from, if not from על?
>
>
>
> Ken
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
> lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of andrew
> fincke
>
>
>
> Sent: October-16-11 12:31 AM
>
>
>
> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
>
>
>
> Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Ken,
>
>
>
> Here it is!
>
>
>
> The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M
> was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted in the
falling
> together of the two with the weakening of the laryngeals and the subsequent
> colouring (sic!) of the associated vowels (both pronounced with 'e-class'
> vowels) in late Hebrew. Examples of the confusion may be found in 2 Samuel
> above in VARIANTS to 3:37, 22:43 and passim. Thus the superior reading is
> הקים אל, with 4QSama, Old Latin and the Lucianic Greek manuscripts. So,
> (sic!) Cross, Canaanite Myth, 234, n. 66. For a brief history of the
> discussion, see McCarter, II Samuel, 477. Compare the standard formula for
> the establishment of kings by God: והקים יהוה לו מלך (1 Kgs
14:14); יהוה
> אלהיו ... להקים את בנו (1Kgs 15:4); יהוה והקמתי (Jer
23:5); יהוה אלהיהם ...
> אקים (Jer 30:9). (Cross/Saley, 186).
>
>
>
> Andrew Fincke
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
> lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
>
>
>
> From: kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
>
>
>
> Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:29:05 -0300
>
>
>
> Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments. If
> you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Ken
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
>
>
>
> Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
>
>
>
> St. Francis Xavier University
>
>
>
> 902-867-2265
>
>
>
> kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
> lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:
> lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of John
> Milton
>
>
>
> Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM
>
>
>
> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
> lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
>
>
>
> Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Ken,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> J
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:
> kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > **
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> > Dick wrote:
>
>
>
> > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading
of
>
>
>
> > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”
>
>
>
> > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize
> the
>
>
>
> > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems
to
> me
>
>
>
> > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the
> Hebrew
>
>
>
> > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is
the
>
>
>
> > typical translation of אל.
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> > Ken
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
>
>
>
> > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:
>
>
>
> > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
>
>
>
> > St. Francis Xavier University
>
>
>
> > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca
> ><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:
> kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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> ------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear List!
To quell Dick’s anger and correct the impression I left that at 1 Sam 21:3
4QSamb  agrees with the masoretic text against the Septuagint, here’s the
relevant quote from DJD 17, 235:
“יעדתי V] חודעתי M; cf. S; העידתי G
(διαμεμαρτυρημαι ).  The reading of 4QSamb is original.  Already
Wellhausen, Bücher Samuelis, 121 had recognized that the original Hebrew text
had some form of the root יעד.  G reads διαμεμαρτυρημαι, the
verb regularly used to render the Hip‘il of עוד in G.  The reading of V,
condixi, would appear to represent יעדתי, a putative Po‘el of ידע,
which is clearly a corruption and may now be safely dropped.”
4QSamb certainly agrees with the Septuagint against the masoretic text.  But
what is “faith of God” in the Septuagint?  Here are the two versions:
Masoretic text: “And the lads I made acquainted with the place of a certain
unnamed individual.”
Septuagint: “And the lads I testified in a place (where it is said) ‘Faith
of God.’”
Apart from the “certain unnamed individual” the problem of 1 Samuel 21:3 is
the identity of the “lads,” who have no part in the story.  David had just
completed three days in hiding (1 Samuel 20:5, 11-12, 24, 35) with an emotional
leave-taking of Jonathan (20:42), who advised him to run for his skin.  The
“companions” Ahimelek expected were remnants of a bygone era – the
“men” who helped David win Mikal as bride by delivering a dowry of 100
Philistine foreskins to Saul (18:27).  Once David achieved his marital object,
he became companionless; and his flight from  Mikal’s house (19:11 ff.)
further isolated him from the outside world, contact with which only fleeting
brushes with Jonathan (19:2) and Samuel (19:18) provided.   In the eyes of the
author of the Septuagint, David’s lads resembled the friends of the bridegroom
who mourned the loss of their companion (Mark 2:19-20).  The context of Mark 2
makes clear that these mourning friends of the groom represent the disciples,
whose teacher they are destined to lose.  The anonymous bridegroom-friends
emerge in the following pericope as disciples plucking their way through a field
ready to harvest (2:23), and the continuation at 2:25-28 identifies them with
David's companions at Nov (“and he gave also to those with him” end of v.
26).   “I testified in a place (where it is said) ‘Faith of God’” refers
the reader to the only other book of the Bible containing the phrase
πίστις θεοῦ - i.e. Mark*, where the reader learns through a
“testimony” (i.e. the parable of the mourning bridegroom-friends) the
identity of the priest and the lads.  Lacking the Mark gospel – which had not
yet been published – the author of 4QSamb omitted the part about “faith of
God,” which apparently entered the Gospel of Mark at an advanced stage of its
development.  “Certain unnamed individual” specifies in 4QSamb an amorphous
body of unfixed testimonies to which אל vaguely refers.  See J. Rendel Harris,
Testimonies, Cambridge, 1916-1920.
Andrew Fincke
*Mark 11:22






To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
From: finckea@...
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 23:46:29 -0400
Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1







Dear John:
1) Here’s the best I can do. The masoretic text at 2 Sam 23:1 has
הַגֶּבֶר הֻקַם עָל מְשִׁיחַ אֱלֹהֵי
יַעֲקֹב “the man who was stood on the anointed God of Jacob.” That
doesn’t makes sense, but the first two words – hagever hukam “the man who
was stood” – sounds like hagever hu kemo (הַגֶּבֶר הוּא
כְּמוֺ) “the man who (was) like.” As anyone familiar with the New
Testament knows, David wasn’t himself the anointed God of Jacob but only
prefigured – “was like” - Him.
2) The citation of DJD 17, 186 was correct, but the explanation not so. The
Gothic Old Latin symbol was expanded to “Old Latin” not to “Lucianic
manuscripts.” The connection between “Old Latin” and “Lucianic
manuscripts” is this: “Old Latin” designates marginal readings in old
Vulgate Bibles, which were collected by Sabatier and Vercellone and published in
1741 and 1864 respectively. The Septuagint marginal readings - given by
Brooke/McLean at the bottoms of the pages - are hardly “Old Greek,” since
their authors, Aquila and Symmachus, worked long after the fixation of the Greek
text. What then is “Old Greek?” It is what came long after the oldest
surviving Greek manuscripts and yet carries a text predating them. Just as the
Jews claim for their relatively young manuscript – Codex Leningrad dates from
the tenth century A.D. – originality, so the Lucianic text – whose vehicle
is five manuscripts from the tenth century A.D. – contains a tradition which
appears “old”er than that of the fourth century Codex Vaticanus. The many
agreements between the Lucianic text and the Samuel scrolls from Qumran support
this view.
3) The list of אל/על confusions was done as a Word document, which was then
pasted into an email due to the tendency of hotmail to crash under the burden of
frequent keyboard changes from English to Greek to Hebrew with Tavultesoft for
the Greek. The table format in the Word document became in the email a list, and
the underlining indicating the scroll evidence was lost. Here it is with some
additions from 4QSam-b.
1 Sam 20:40: MT: And Jonathan gave his equipment to the lad,
Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-b: And Jonathan gave his equipment on the lad.
1 Sam 21:3: MT/4QSam-b: And the lads I made familiar with the place of some
anonymous fellow, Vaticanus/Lucianic: And to the lads I witnessed in the place
called ‘Faith of God.’
1 Sam 21:5: MT: There is not profane bread to under my hand,
Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-b: There is not profane bread under my hand.
1 Sam 27:10: MT: On the south of Judah and on the south of the Yarchmali and to
the south of the Keni, Vaticanus/Lucianic: On the south of Judaea and on the
south of Yesmaga and on the south of the Kenezi, 4QSam-a: [ ] and to the south
of Y[ ] and on the sou[th of.
1 Sam 31:3: MT: And the war was heavy to Saul, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-a: And
the was heavy on Saul.
2 Sam 3:37: MT: And the king lamented to Abner, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-a: And
the king lamented over Abner.
2 Sam 4:2: Because also Beirut was counted upon Benjamin, Vaticanus/Lucianic:
Because (Lucianic + also) Beirut was counted to the sons of Benjamin, 4QSam-a: [
] to Benjamin.
There’s a noticeable tendency to agreement between the Greek and the scrolls.
The commonality at 1 Sam 27:10 is that the Greek and the scroll tend toward a
triplet – the Greeks through uniformity of the preposition, the scroll through
triple divergence. A careful reconstruction of the fragment shows that the first
preposition lacked and that the scroll read “south of Judah and to the south
of the Yarchmali and on the south of the Kenezei” with no preposition then
“to” then “on.” At 2 Sam 14:30: אל ידי “to my hand” 4QSam-c has
על ידי “on my hand,” which may be closer to Vaticanus/Lucianic: “next
to,” for which “on hand” is the normal equivalent.
Andrew Fincke





To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
From: johnisaacmilton@...
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:50:06 -0400
Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1





Hi Ken and Dick,

It still seems that the 'al is superfluous in the MT. The verb qwm is
sufficient and not necessary to have the collocation of the verb and 'al .
Even the internal link or echo to 2 Sam 7:12 has only the verb qwm. Why does
the MT's reading add the substantive - how does it add to the reading?
Finally, can wee say that the kaige recension reflects the reading of 'al as
a preposition (breaking from the MT on its vocalization as well as its
accent)?

Best,

John

On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Saley, Richard <saley@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hi Ken,
>
> No wonder you were confused! My statement in the previous email that “the
> Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל” was erroneous! It
should
> have read: “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek was clearly אל.”
Apologies .
> . .
>
> I'm heartened, though, that despite my slipup you came to the right
> conclusion: "the OG had εις/προς, and that the επι was from the
kaige
> recension."
>
> Cheers,
> Dick
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
> Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
> Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
> Harvard University
> Six Divinity Avenue
> Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
> Tel: 617-495-4239
> Fax: 617-496-8904
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Penner [
> kpenner@...]
> Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 6:23 AM
> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
>
> Thanks for this helpful explanation, Dick.
>
>
>
> One confusion remains in my mind: do you think the OG here was εις/προς
or
> επι?
>
> In point #5 and 6 below, I would think the OG had εις/προς, and that
the
> επι was from the kaige recension, but earlier you spoke of “The Hebrew
> Vorlage of the Old Greek επι”.
>
>
>
> Ken
>
>
>
> Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
>
> Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:
>
> http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/
>
> kpenner@...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Saley,
> Richard
>
> Sent: October-16-11 7:56 PM
>
> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
>
> Cc: Saley, Richard
>
> Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Ken,
>
>
>
> In your last comments on the subject you state: 'I take it that the
> discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not
> the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from
על?'
> Actually, DJD 17 is attempting to establish the Vorlage of the Old Greek.
> Let me see if I can explain:
>
>
>
> 1) When all is said and done, the Old Greek for 2 Sam 23 is lost. The best
> mss for the Old Greek in the books of Samuel are B-y-a2. However, from 2 Sam
> 10:1 (or 11:2) though the end of 2 Sam the Old Greek has been overwritten by
> Kaige Greek, a late (1st cent. BCE?) revision of the Old Greek on the basis
> of the proto-Masoretic Hebrew text. This text reads επι which presumes
> Hebrew על as you have noted.
>
>
>
> 2) The main hexaplaric mss for Samuel are A-c-x. These also read επι,
> presuming על, and like B-y-a2 reflect a Masoretic-type text.
>
>
>
> 3) The Lucianic Greek texts b-o-c2-e2 read ο θεος which reflects a
Vorlage
> of אל (taken as the word 'God' and made subject of the [unpointed] verb
> הקם). The Old Latin, almost certainly rendering the Lucianic tradition,
also
> reflects Hebrew אל.
>
>
>
> 4) If you are using Rahlfs for your Septuagint text, it should be noted
> that Rahlfs is primarily based on the uncials Vaticanus (B), Sinaiticus (S)
> and Alexandrinus (A). Sinaiticus is not extant for this passge and Vaticanus
> and Alexandrinus both reflect the Masoretic reading as noted above. In
> addition, it should be stated that Rahlfs, despite all of his brilliance,
> completely misjudged the Lucianic tradition and considered it basically
> worthless (and hence for a passage as this, of no value).
>
>
>
> 5) The Qumran scrolls of 4QSam-a,b,c repeatedly reflect Hebrew Vorlagen
> that read אל in agreement with the Old Greek (1 Sam 1:1--2 Sam 9:13 [or
> 11:1]) reading of εις or προς (appearing also with regularity in the
> Lucianic tradition).
>
>
>
> 6) So, the bottom line is that we have EARLY witnesses in both Hebrew (and
> Greek) that reflect אל (εις/προς) and LATE witnesses in both Hebrew
(and
> Greek) that reflect על (επι). These data in Samuel, as well as other data
> elsewhere, strongly suggest that the difference is best accounted for by the
> process stated in DJD 17, i.e., the confusion of אל and על in late Hebrew
> occasioned by the weakening of the laryngeals and the coloring of the
> associated vowel of על to an ‘e’ sound.
>
>
>
> I hope this is helpful in understanding the write-up in DJD 17.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dick
>
>
>
>
>
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
>
> Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
>
> Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
>
> Harvard University
>
> Six Divinity Avenue
>
> Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
>
> Tel: 617-495-4239
>
> Fax: 617-496-8904
>
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
>
> From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [
> lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Ken Penner
> [kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>]
>
> Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:06 AM
>
> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
>
> Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
>
>
>
> Thanks, Andy.
>
>
>
> I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the
> original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι
> come from, if not from על?
>
>
>
> Ken
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
> lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of andrew
> fincke
>
>
>
> Sent: October-16-11 12:31 AM
>
>
>
> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
>
>
>
> Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Ken,
>
>
>
> Here it is!
>
>
>
> The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M
> was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted in the
falling
> together of the two with the weakening of the laryngeals and the subsequent
> colouring (sic!) of the associated vowels (both pronounced with 'e-class'
> vowels) in late Hebrew. Examples of the confusion may be found in 2 Samuel
> above in VARIANTS to 3:37, 22:43 and passim. Thus the superior reading is
> הקים אל, with 4QSama, Old Latin and the Lucianic Greek manuscripts. So,
> (sic!) Cross, Canaanite Myth, 234, n. 66. For a brief history of the
> discussion, see McCarter, II Samuel, 477. Compare the standard formula for
> the establishment of kings by God: והקים יהוה לו מלך (1 Kgs
14:14); יהוה
> אלהיו ... להקים את בנו (1Kgs 15:4); יהוה והקמתי (Jer
23:5); יהוה אלהיהם ...
> אקים (Jer 30:9). (Cross/Saley, 186).
>
>
>
> Andrew Fincke
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
> lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
>
>
>
> From: kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
>
>
>
> Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:29:05 -0300
>
>
>
> Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments. If
> you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Ken
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
>
>
>
> Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
>
>
>
> St. Francis Xavier University
>
>
>
> 902-867-2265
>
>
>
> kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
> lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:
> lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of John
> Milton
>
>
>
> Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM
>
>
>
> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
> lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
>
>
>
> Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Ken,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> J
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:
> kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > **
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> > Dick wrote:
>
>
>
> > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading
of
>
>
>
> > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”
>
>
>
> > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize
> the
>
>
>
> > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems
to
> me
>
>
>
> > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the
> Hebrew
>
>
>
> > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is
the
>
>
>
> > typical translation of אל.
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> > Ken
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
>
>
>
> > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:
>
>
>
> > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
>
>
>
> > St. Francis Xavier University
>
>
>
> > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca
> ><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:
> kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I like and use RAHLFS Septuaginta but the edition I have, which is the
one currently available on the UBS website is pretty small.  I'd like a
single volume Greek text, but was RAHLFS ever published in an edition
with a bit larger font type?

Yes, it was originally published in a 2 volume edition. You can still get it
used, although it is the older edition. It isn't very cheap that way, but it is
much easier on my old eyes :)

At the risk of sounding like I'm trying to market to you, we do have one in
stock right now:
http://www.eisenbrauns.com/item/USEDRAHSEPTU

Hope that helps,
James
________________________________
James Spinti
Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
Eisenbrauns, Good books for more than 35 years
Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
Fax: 574-269-6788

On Nov 14, 2011, at 9:20 PM, summascriptura wrote:

> I like and use RAHLFS Septuaginta but the edition I have, which is the
> one currently available on the UBS website is pretty small.  I'd like a
> single volume Greek text, but was RAHLFS ever published in an edition
> with a bit larger font type?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

List!
Sorry about the mistranslation of the Septuagint at 1 Sam. 21:3, which says,
“And to the lads I testified in the place (where) it is said, ‘Faith of
God’” not “And the lads I testified in a place (where it is said) ‘Faith
of God.’”  The Greek is καὶ τοῖς παιδαρίοις
διαμεμαρτύρημαι ἐν τῷ τόπῳ τῷ λεγομένῳ
θεοῦ πίστις φελλανεὶ μαεμωνεί.  In any case,
it’s not “in a place called “Faith of God,’” since the verb in the
participle is λέγω not καλέω.  That means the continuation in
Vaticanus: φελλανεὶ μαεμωνεί is a corruption of Jer.
32(39):27: הִנֵּה אֲנִי יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵי כָּל
בָּשָׂר הֲמִמֶּנִּי יִפָּלֵא כָּל דָּבָר
“Look! I’m the Lord God of all flesh!  Is anything too awesome for me?” 
to  הִנֵּה אֲנִי יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵי כָּל
בְּשׂרָה מִמֶּנִּי יִפָּלֵא כָּל דָּבָר
“Look! I’m the Lord God of all gospel! Every word (going forth) from me is
wonderful!”  The key is μαεμωνεί, which turns הֲמִמֶּנִּי
“Is from me?” at Jeremiah into מִמֶּנִּי “from me” and
בָּשָׂר “flesh” into בְּשׂרָה “gospel”
(εὐαγγέλιον).  That turns θεὸς πάσης σαρκός at
Jeremiah into θεοῦ πίστις εὐαγγελίῳ and 1 Sam. 21:3 into
“And I testified to the lads (disciples) in the place in the gospel (of Mark)
where (it) is said, ‘Faith of God.’”  Recorded at Mark 2:25-27 is the good
news to the disciples about the temple-bread that was about to replace the raw
kernels they were rubbing.  It was a “testimony” by virtue of its being
drawn from Scripture – 1 Sam. 21:3-7.
Andrew Fincke








To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
From: finckea@...
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 23:24:02 -0500
Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1







Dear List!
To quell Dick’s anger and correct the impression I left that at 1 Sam 21:3
4QSamb agrees with the masoretic text against the Septuagint, here’s the
relevant quote from DJD 17, 235:
“יעדתי V] חודעתי M; cf. S; העידתי G
(διαμεμαρτυρημαι ). The reading of 4QSamb is original. Already
Wellhausen, Bücher Samuelis, 121 had recognized that the original Hebrew text
had some form of the root יעד. G reads διαμεμαρτυρημαι, the
verb regularly used to render the Hip‘il of עוד in G. The reading of V,
condixi, would appear to represent יעדתי, a putative Po‘el of ידע,
which is clearly a corruption and may now be safely dropped.”
4QSamb certainly agrees with the Septuagint against the masoretic text. But what
is “faith of God” in the Septuagint? Here are the two versions:
Masoretic text: “And the lads I made acquainted with the place of a certain
unnamed individual.”
Septuagint: “And the lads I testified in a place (where it is said) ‘Faith
of God.’”
Apart from the “certain unnamed individual” the problem of 1 Samuel 21:3 is
the identity of the “lads,” who have no part in the story. David had just
completed three days in hiding (1 Samuel 20:5, 11-12, 24, 35) with an emotional
leave-taking of Jonathan (20:42), who advised him to run for his skin. The
“companions” Ahimelek expected were remnants of a bygone era – the
“men” who helped David win Mikal as bride by delivering a dowry of 100
Philistine foreskins to Saul (18:27). Once David achieved his marital object, he
became companionless; and his flight from Mikal’s house (19:11 ff.) further
isolated him from the outside world, contact with which only fleeting brushes
with Jonathan (19:2) and Samuel (19:18) provided. In the eyes of the author of
the Septuagint, David’s lads resembled the friends of the bridegroom who
mourned the loss of their companion (Mark 2:19-20). The context of Mark 2 makes
clear that these mourning friends of the groom represent the disciples, whose
teacher they are destined to lose. The anonymous bridegroom-friends emerge in
the following pericope as disciples plucking their way through a field ready to
harvest (2:23), and the continuation at 2:25-28 identifies them with David's
companions at Nov (“and he gave also to those with him” end of v. 26). “I
testified in a place (where it is said) ‘Faith of God’” refers the reader
to the only other book of the Bible containing the phrase πίστις
θεοῦ - i.e. Mark*, where the reader learns through a “testimony” (i.e.
the parable of the mourning bridegroom-friends) the identity of the priest and
the lads. Lacking the Mark gospel – which had not yet been published – the
author of 4QSamb omitted the part about “faith of God,” which apparently
entered the Gospel of Mark at an advanced stage of its development. “Certain
unnamed individual” specifies in 4QSamb an amorphous body of unfixed
testimonies to which אל vaguely refers. See J. Rendel Harris, Testimonies,
Cambridge, 1916-1920.
Andrew Fincke
*Mark 11:22






To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
From: finckea@...
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 23:46:29 -0400
Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1







Dear John:
1) Here’s the best I can do. The masoretic text at 2 Sam 23:1 has
הַגֶּבֶר הֻקַם עָל מְשִׁיחַ אֱלֹהֵי
יַעֲקֹב “the man who was stood on the anointed God of Jacob.” That
doesn’t makes sense, but the first two words – hagever hukam “the man who
was stood” – sounds like hagever hu kemo (הַגֶּבֶר הוּא
כְּמוֺ) “the man who (was) like.” As anyone familiar with the New
Testament knows, David wasn’t himself the anointed God of Jacob but only
prefigured – “was like” - Him.
2) The citation of DJD 17, 186 was correct, but the explanation not so. The
Gothic Old Latin symbol was expanded to “Old Latin” not to “Lucianic
manuscripts.” The connection between “Old Latin” and “Lucianic
manuscripts” is this: “Old Latin” designates marginal readings in old
Vulgate Bibles, which were collected by Sabatier and Vercellone and published in
1741 and 1864 respectively. The Septuagint marginal readings - given by
Brooke/McLean at the bottoms of the pages - are hardly “Old Greek,” since
their authors, Aquila and Symmachus, worked long after the fixation of the Greek
text. What then is “Old Greek?” It is what came long after the oldest
surviving Greek manuscripts and yet carries a text predating them. Just as the
Jews claim for their relatively young manuscript – Codex Leningrad dates from
the tenth century A.D. – originality, so the Lucianic text – whose vehicle
is five manuscripts from the tenth century A.D. – contains a tradition which
appears “old”er than that of the fourth century Codex Vaticanus. The many
agreements between the Lucianic text and the Samuel scrolls from Qumran support
this view.
3) The list of אל/על confusions was done as a Word document, which was then
pasted into an email due to the tendency of hotmail to crash under the burden of
frequent keyboard changes from English to Greek to Hebrew with Tavultesoft for
the Greek. The table format in the Word document became in the email a list, and
the underlining indicating the scroll evidence was lost. Here it is with some
additions from 4QSam-b.
1 Sam 20:40: MT: And Jonathan gave his equipment to the lad,
Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-b: And Jonathan gave his equipment on the lad.
1 Sam 21:3: MT/4QSam-b: And the lads I made familiar with the place of some
anonymous fellow, Vaticanus/Lucianic: And to the lads I witnessed in the place
called ‘Faith of God.’
1 Sam 21:5: MT: There is not profane bread to under my hand,
Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-b: There is not profane bread under my hand.
1 Sam 27:10: MT: On the south of Judah and on the south of the Yarchmali and to
the south of the Keni, Vaticanus/Lucianic: On the south of Judaea and on the
south of Yesmaga and on the south of the Kenezi, 4QSam-a: [ ] and to the south
of Y[ ] and on the sou[th of.
1 Sam 31:3: MT: And the war was heavy to Saul, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-a: And
the was heavy on Saul.
2 Sam 3:37: MT: And the king lamented to Abner, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-a: And
the king lamented over Abner.
2 Sam 4:2: Because also Beirut was counted upon Benjamin, Vaticanus/Lucianic:
Because (Lucianic + also) Beirut was counted to the sons of Benjamin, 4QSam-a: [
] to Benjamin.
There’s a noticeable tendency to agreement between the Greek and the scrolls.
The commonality at 1 Sam 27:10 is that the Greek and the scroll tend toward a
triplet – the Greeks through uniformity of the preposition, the scroll through
triple divergence. A careful reconstruction of the fragment shows that the first
preposition lacked and that the scroll read “south of Judah and to the south
of the Yarchmali and on the south of the Kenezei” with no preposition then
“to” then “on.” At 2 Sam 14:30: אל ידי “to my hand” 4QSam-c has
על ידי “on my hand,” which may be closer to Vaticanus/Lucianic: “next
to,” for which “on hand” is the normal equivalent.
Andrew Fincke





To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
From: johnisaacmilton@...
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:50:06 -0400
Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1





Hi Ken and Dick,

It still seems that the 'al is superfluous in the MT. The verb qwm is
sufficient and not necessary to have the collocation of the verb and 'al .
Even the internal link or echo to 2 Sam 7:12 has only the verb qwm. Why does
the MT's reading add the substantive - how does it add to the reading?
Finally, can wee say that the kaige recension reflects the reading of 'al as
a preposition (breaking from the MT on its vocalization as well as its
accent)?

Best,

John

On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Saley, Richard <saley@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hi Ken,
>
> No wonder you were confused! My statement in the previous email that “the
> Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל” was erroneous! It
should
> have read: “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek was clearly אל.”
Apologies .
> . .
>
> I'm heartened, though, that despite my slipup you came to the right
> conclusion: "the OG had εις/προς, and that the επι was from the
kaige
> recension."
>
> Cheers,
> Dick
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
> Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
> Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
> Harvard University
> Six Divinity Avenue
> Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
> Tel: 617-495-4239
> Fax: 617-496-8904
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Penner [
> kpenner@...]
> Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 6:23 AM
> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
>
> Thanks for this helpful explanation, Dick.
>
>
>
> One confusion remains in my mind: do you think the OG here was εις/προς
or
> επι?
>
> In point #5 and 6 below, I would think the OG had εις/προς, and that
the
> επι was from the kaige recension, but earlier you spoke of “The Hebrew
> Vorlage of the Old Greek επι”.
>
>
>
> Ken
>
>
>
> Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
>
> Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:
>
> http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/
>
> kpenner@...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Saley,
> Richard
>
> Sent: October-16-11 7:56 PM
>
> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
>
> Cc: Saley, Richard
>
> Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Ken,
>
>
>
> In your last comments on the subject you state: 'I take it that the
> discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not
> the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from
על?'
> Actually, DJD 17 is attempting to establish the Vorlage of the Old Greek.
> Let me see if I can explain:
>
>
>
> 1) When all is said and done, the Old Greek for 2 Sam 23 is lost. The best
> mss for the Old Greek in the books of Samuel are B-y-a2. However, from 2 Sam
> 10:1 (or 11:2) though the end of 2 Sam the Old Greek has been overwritten by
> Kaige Greek, a late (1st cent. BCE?) revision of the Old Greek on the basis
> of the proto-Masoretic Hebrew text. This text reads επι which presumes
> Hebrew על as you have noted.
>
>
>
> 2) The main hexaplaric mss for Samuel are A-c-x. These also read επι,
> presuming על, and like B-y-a2 reflect a Masoretic-type text.
>
>
>
> 3) The Lucianic Greek texts b-o-c2-e2 read ο θεος which reflects a
Vorlage
> of אל (taken as the word 'God' and made subject of the [unpointed] verb
> הקם). The Old Latin, almost certainly rendering the Lucianic tradition,
also
> reflects Hebrew אל.
>
>
>
> 4) If you are using Rahlfs for your Septuagint text, it should be noted
> that Rahlfs is primarily based on the uncials Vaticanus (B), Sinaiticus (S)
> and Alexandrinus (A). Sinaiticus is not extant for this passge and Vaticanus
> and Alexandrinus both reflect the Masoretic reading as noted above. In
> addition, it should be stated that Rahlfs, despite all of his brilliance,
> completely misjudged the Lucianic tradition and considered it basically
> worthless (and hence for a passage as this, of no value).
>
>
>
> 5) The Qumran scrolls of 4QSam-a,b,c repeatedly reflect Hebrew Vorlagen
> that read אל in agreement with the Old Greek (1 Sam 1:1--2 Sam 9:13 [or
> 11:1]) reading of εις or προς (appearing also with regularity in the
> Lucianic tradition).
>
>
>
> 6) So, the bottom line is that we have EARLY witnesses in both Hebrew (and
> Greek) that reflect אל (εις/προς) and LATE witnesses in both Hebrew
(and
> Greek) that reflect על (επι). These data in Samuel, as well as other data
> elsewhere, strongly suggest that the difference is best accounted for by the
> process stated in DJD 17, i.e., the confusion of אל and על in late Hebrew
> occasioned by the weakening of the laryngeals and the coloring of the
> associated vowel of על to an ‘e’ sound.
>
>
>
> I hope this is helpful in understanding the write-up in DJD 17.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dick
>
>
>
>
>
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
>
> Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
>
> Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
>
> Harvard University
>
> Six Divinity Avenue
>
> Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
>
> Tel: 617-495-4239
>
> Fax: 617-496-8904
>
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
>
> From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [
> lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Ken Penner
> [kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>]
>
> Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:06 AM
>
> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
>
> Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
>
>
>
> Thanks, Andy.
>
>
>
> I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the
> original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι
> come from, if not from על?
>
>
>
> Ken
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
> lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of andrew
> fincke
>
>
>
> Sent: October-16-11 12:31 AM
>
>
>
> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
>
>
>
> Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Ken,
>
>
>
> Here it is!
>
>
>
> The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M
> was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted in the
falling
> together of the two with the weakening of the laryngeals and the subsequent
> colouring (sic!) of the associated vowels (both pronounced with 'e-class'
> vowels) in late Hebrew. Examples of the confusion may be found in 2 Samuel
> above in VARIANTS to 3:37, 22:43 and passim. Thus the superior reading is
> הקים אל, with 4QSama, Old Latin and the Lucianic Greek manuscripts. So,
> (sic!) Cross, Canaanite Myth, 234, n. 66. For a brief history of the
> discussion, see McCarter, II Samuel, 477. Compare the standard formula for
> the establishment of kings by God: והקים יהוה לו מלך (1 Kgs
14:14); יהוה
> אלהיו ... להקים את בנו (1Kgs 15:4); יהוה והקמתי (Jer
23:5); יהוה אלהיהם ...
> אקים (Jer 30:9). (Cross/Saley, 186).
>
>
>
> Andrew Fincke
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
> lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
>
>
>
> From: kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
>
>
>
> Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:29:05 -0300
>
>
>
> Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments. If
> you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Ken
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
>
>
>
> Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
>
>
>
> St. Francis Xavier University
>
>
>
> 902-867-2265
>
>
>
> kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
> lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:
> lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of John
> Milton
>
>
>
> Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM
>
>
>
> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
> lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
>
>
>
> Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Ken,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> J
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:
> kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > **
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> > Dick wrote:
>
>
>
> > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading
of
>
>
>
> > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”
>
>
>
> > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize
> the
>
>
>
> > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems
to
> me
>
>
>
> > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the
> Hebrew
>
>
>
> > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is
the
>
>
>
> > typical translation of אל.
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> > Ken
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
>
>
>
> > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:
>
>
>
> > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
>
>
>
> > St. Francis Xavier University
>
>
>
> > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca
> ><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:
> kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear List,
It doesn’t take a great deal of imagination to see that φελλανεὶ
μαεμωνεί ending 1 Sam. 21:3 in Vaticanus is the transcription or
partial transcription of something in Hebrew.  But if not the פְּלֹנִי
אַלְמוֹנִי of M and the פלני אלמני of 4QSamb, then what?  How
did the Hebrew phrase, which means “some anonymous individual,” get so
corrupted in the Greek?  And what bearing does this corrupt Greek have on the
preceding “I testified to the lads in a place said ‘Faith of God’”?  The
first word isn’t so bad - φελλανεὶ fairly well represents פלני. 
The difference is in the punctuation – the masoretes have peloni
(פְּלֹנִי), Vaticanus fellani, which transcribes not פלני but rather
פֶלֶא אֲנִי “I am wonderful” or, rather, “I am Wonderful,”
since Isaiah 9:6 says, “His name shall be called ‘Wonderful’
(פֶּלֶא).”  The identity of the “I” of 1 Sam. 21:3: “I testified
to the lads” is revealed – the man called “Wonderful,” whose testimony
to the lads is recorded in the Gospel of Mark, where “Faith of God” appears.
Now μαεμωνεί is a different case.  The Septuagint knew how to
transcribe אַלְמוֹנִי – see ελμωνι at 2 Kings 6:8.  Here the
author had something else in mind -  אֵמוּנִי “my faithfulness.” 
For אֵמוּן “faithfulness” see Deut. 32:20.  His idea was “I am
Wonderful due to My faithfulness (מֵאֵמוּנִי = μαεμωνεί),”
which explains “faith of God!” at Mark 11:22.  The “anonymous person”
turns out to be the priest that met David – Ahimelek according to 1 Samuel,
Abiathar, son of Ahimelek, according to Mark 2:26.  Turns out Mark is right,
since Isaiah 9:6 ends the list of divine names with  אֲבִיעַד שַׂר
שׁלוֺם “The Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.”  With all due
respect to Lancelot Andrewes and the King James translators, אֲבִיעַד
שַׂר is best understood אֶבְיָתָר “Abiathar,” and שׁלוֺם
“Completion!” is the “Amen” of the litany.
Andrew Fincke





To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
From: finckea@...
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 23:24:02 -0500
Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1







Dear List!
To quell Dick’s anger and correct the impression I left that at 1 Sam 21:3
4QSamb agrees with the masoretic text against the Septuagint, here’s the
relevant quote from DJD 17, 235:
“יעדתי V] חודעתי M; cf. S; העידתי G
(διαμεμαρτυρημαι ). The reading of 4QSamb is original. Already
Wellhausen, Bücher Samuelis, 121 had recognized that the original Hebrew text
had some form of the root יעד. G reads διαμεμαρτυρημαι, the
verb regularly used to render the Hip‘il of עוד in G. The reading of V,
condixi, would appear to represent יעדתי, a putative Po‘el of ידע,
which is clearly a corruption and may now be safely dropped.”
4QSamb certainly agrees with the Septuagint against the masoretic text. But what
is “faith of God” in the Septuagint? Here are the two versions:
Masoretic text: “And the lads I made acquainted with the place of a certain
unnamed individual.”
Septuagint: “And the lads I testified in a place (where it is said) ‘Faith
of God.’”
Apart from the “certain unnamed individual” the problem of 1 Samuel 21:3 is
the identity of the “lads,” who have no part in the story. David had just
completed three days in hiding (1 Samuel 20:5, 11-12, 24, 35) with an emotional
leave-taking of Jonathan (20:42), who advised him to run for his skin. The
“companions” Ahimelek expected were remnants of a bygone era – the
“men” who helped David win Mikal as bride by delivering a dowry of 100
Philistine foreskins to Saul (18:27). Once David achieved his marital object, he
became companionless; and his flight from Mikal’s house (19:11 ff.) further
isolated him from the outside world, contact with which only fleeting brushes
with Jonathan (19:2) and Samuel (19:18) provided. In the eyes of the author of
the Septuagint, David’s lads resembled the friends of the bridegroom who
mourned the loss of their companion (Mark 2:19-20). The context of Mark 2 makes
clear that these mourning friends of the groom represent the disciples, whose
teacher they are destined to lose. The anonymous bridegroom-friends emerge in
the following pericope as disciples plucking their way through a field ready to
harvest (2:23), and the continuation at 2:25-28 identifies them with David's
companions at Nov (“and he gave also to those with him” end of v. 26). “I
testified in a place (where it is said) ‘Faith of God’” refers the reader
to the only other book of the Bible containing the phrase πίστις
θεοῦ - i.e. Mark*, where the reader learns through a “testimony” (i.e.
the parable of the mourning bridegroom-friends) the identity of the priest and
the lads. Lacking the Mark gospel – which had not yet been published – the
author of 4QSamb omitted the part about “faith of God,” which apparently
entered the Gospel of Mark at an advanced stage of its development. “Certain
unnamed individual” specifies in 4QSamb an amorphous body of unfixed
testimonies to which אל vaguely refers. See J. Rendel Harris, Testimonies,
Cambridge, 1916-1920.
Andrew Fincke
*Mark 11:22






To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
From: finckea@...
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 23:46:29 -0400
Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1







Dear John:
1) Here’s the best I can do. The masoretic text at 2 Sam 23:1 has
הַגֶּבֶר הֻקַם עָל מְשִׁיחַ אֱלֹהֵי
יַעֲקֹב “the man who was stood on the anointed God of Jacob.” That
doesn’t makes sense, but the first two words – hagever hukam “the man who
was stood” – sounds like hagever hu kemo (הַגֶּבֶר הוּא
כְּמוֺ) “the man who (was) like.” As anyone familiar with the New
Testament knows, David wasn’t himself the anointed God of Jacob but only
prefigured – “was like” - Him.
2) The citation of DJD 17, 186 was correct, but the explanation not so. The
Gothic Old Latin symbol was expanded to “Old Latin” not to “Lucianic
manuscripts.” The connection between “Old Latin” and “Lucianic
manuscripts” is this: “Old Latin” designates marginal readings in old
Vulgate Bibles, which were collected by Sabatier and Vercellone and published in
1741 and 1864 respectively. The Septuagint marginal readings - given by
Brooke/McLean at the bottoms of the pages - are hardly “Old Greek,” since
their authors, Aquila and Symmachus, worked long after the fixation of the Greek
text. What then is “Old Greek?” It is what came long after the oldest
surviving Greek manuscripts and yet carries a text predating them. Just as the
Jews claim for their relatively young manuscript – Codex Leningrad dates from
the tenth century A.D. – originality, so the Lucianic text – whose vehicle
is five manuscripts from the tenth century A.D. – contains a tradition which
appears “old”er than that of the fourth century Codex Vaticanus. The many
agreements between the Lucianic text and the Samuel scrolls from Qumran support
this view.
3) The list of אל/על confusions was done as a Word document, which was then
pasted into an email due to the tendency of hotmail to crash under the burden of
frequent keyboard changes from English to Greek to Hebrew with Tavultesoft for
the Greek. The table format in the Word document became in the email a list, and
the underlining indicating the scroll evidence was lost. Here it is with some
additions from 4QSam-b.
1 Sam 20:40: MT: And Jonathan gave his equipment to the lad,
Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-b: And Jonathan gave his equipment on the lad.
1 Sam 21:3: MT/4QSam-b: And the lads I made familiar with the place of some
anonymous fellow, Vaticanus/Lucianic: And to the lads I witnessed in the place
called ‘Faith of God.’
1 Sam 21:5: MT: There is not profane bread to under my hand,
Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-b: There is not profane bread under my hand.
1 Sam 27:10: MT: On the south of Judah and on the south of the Yarchmali and to
the south of the Keni, Vaticanus/Lucianic: On the south of Judaea and on the
south of Yesmaga and on the south of the Kenezi, 4QSam-a: [ ] and to the south
of Y[ ] and on the sou[th of.
1 Sam 31:3: MT: And the war was heavy to Saul, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-a: And
the was heavy on Saul.
2 Sam 3:37: MT: And the king lamented to Abner, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-a: And
the king lamented over Abner.
2 Sam 4:2: Because also Beirut was counted upon Benjamin, Vaticanus/Lucianic:
Because (Lucianic + also) Beirut was counted to the sons of Benjamin, 4QSam-a: [
] to Benjamin.
There’s a noticeable tendency to agreement between the Greek and the scrolls.
The commonality at 1 Sam 27:10 is that the Greek and the scroll tend toward a
triplet – the Greeks through uniformity of the preposition, the scroll through
triple divergence. A careful reconstruction of the fragment shows that the first
preposition lacked and that the scroll read “south of Judah and to the south
of the Yarchmali and on the south of the Kenezei” with no preposition then
“to” then “on.” At 2 Sam 14:30: אל ידי “to my hand” 4QSam-c has
על ידי “on my hand,” which may be closer to Vaticanus/Lucianic: “next
to,” for which “on hand” is the normal equivalent.
Andrew Fincke





To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
From: johnisaacmilton@...
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:50:06 -0400
Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1





Hi Ken and Dick,

It still seems that the 'al is superfluous in the MT. The verb qwm is
sufficient and not necessary to have the collocation of the verb and 'al .
Even the internal link or echo to 2 Sam 7:12 has only the verb qwm. Why does
the MT's reading add the substantive - how does it add to the reading?
Finally, can wee say that the kaige recension reflects the reading of 'al as
a preposition (breaking from the MT on its vocalization as well as its
accent)?

Best,

John

On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Saley, Richard <saley@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hi Ken,
>
> No wonder you were confused! My statement in the previous email that “the
> Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל” was erroneous! It
should
> have read: “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek was clearly אל.”
Apologies .
> . .
>
> I'm heartened, though, that despite my slipup you came to the right
> conclusion: "the OG had εις/προς, and that the επι was from the
kaige
> recension."
>
> Cheers,
> Dick
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
> Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
> Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
> Harvard University
> Six Divinity Avenue
> Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
> Tel: 617-495-4239
> Fax: 617-496-8904
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Penner [
> kpenner@...]
> Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 6:23 AM
> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
>
> Thanks for this helpful explanation, Dick.
>
>
>
> One confusion remains in my mind: do you think the OG here was εις/προς
or
> επι?
>
> In point #5 and 6 below, I would think the OG had εις/προς, and that
the
> επι was from the kaige recension, but earlier you spoke of “The Hebrew
> Vorlage of the Old Greek επι”.
>
>
>
> Ken
>
>
>
> Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
>
> Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:
>
> http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/
>
> kpenner@...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Saley,
> Richard
>
> Sent: October-16-11 7:56 PM
>
> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
>
> Cc: Saley, Richard
>
> Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Ken,
>
>
>
> In your last comments on the subject you state: 'I take it that the
> discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not
> the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from
על?'
> Actually, DJD 17 is attempting to establish the Vorlage of the Old Greek.
> Let me see if I can explain:
>
>
>
> 1) When all is said and done, the Old Greek for 2 Sam 23 is lost. The best
> mss for the Old Greek in the books of Samuel are B-y-a2. However, from 2 Sam
> 10:1 (or 11:2) though the end of 2 Sam the Old Greek has been overwritten by
> Kaige Greek, a late (1st cent. BCE?) revision of the Old Greek on the basis
> of the proto-Masoretic Hebrew text. This text reads επι which presumes
> Hebrew על as you have noted.
>
>
>
> 2) The main hexaplaric mss for Samuel are A-c-x. These also read επι,
> presuming על, and like B-y-a2 reflect a Masoretic-type text.
>
>
>
> 3) The Lucianic Greek texts b-o-c2-e2 read ο θεος which reflects a
Vorlage
> of אל (taken as the word 'God' and made subject of the [unpointed] verb
> הקם). The Old Latin, almost certainly rendering the Lucianic tradition,
also
> reflects Hebrew אל.
>
>
>
> 4) If you are using Rahlfs for your Septuagint text, it should be noted
> that Rahlfs is primarily based on the uncials Vaticanus (B), Sinaiticus (S)
> and Alexandrinus (A). Sinaiticus is not extant for this passge and Vaticanus
> and Alexandrinus both reflect the Masoretic reading as noted above. In
> addition, it should be stated that Rahlfs, despite all of his brilliance,
> completely misjudged the Lucianic tradition and considered it basically
> worthless (and hence for a passage as this, of no value).
>
>
>
> 5) The Qumran scrolls of 4QSam-a,b,c repeatedly reflect Hebrew Vorlagen
> that read אל in agreement with the Old Greek (1 Sam 1:1--2 Sam 9:13 [or
> 11:1]) reading of εις or προς (appearing also with regularity in the
> Lucianic tradition).
>
>
>
> 6) So, the bottom line is that we have EARLY witnesses in both Hebrew (and
> Greek) that reflect אל (εις/προς) and LATE witnesses in both Hebrew
(and
> Greek) that reflect על (επι). These data in Samuel, as well as other data
> elsewhere, strongly suggest that the difference is best accounted for by the
> process stated in DJD 17, i.e., the confusion of אל and על in late Hebrew
> occasioned by the weakening of the laryngeals and the coloring of the
> associated vowel of על to an ‘e’ sound.
>
>
>
> I hope this is helpful in understanding the write-up in DJD 17.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dick
>
>
>
>
>
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
>
> Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
>
> Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
>
> Harvard University
>
> Six Divinity Avenue
>
> Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
>
> Tel: 617-495-4239
>
> Fax: 617-496-8904
>
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
>
> From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [
> lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Ken Penner
> [kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>]
>
> Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:06 AM
>
> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
>
> Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
>
>
>
> Thanks, Andy.
>
>
>
> I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the
> original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι
> come from, if not from על?
>
>
>
> Ken
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
> lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of andrew
> fincke
>
>
>
> Sent: October-16-11 12:31 AM
>
>
>
> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
>
>
>
> Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Ken,
>
>
>
> Here it is!
>
>
>
> The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M
> was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted in the
falling
> together of the two with the weakening of the laryngeals and the subsequent
> colouring (sic!) of the associated vowels (both pronounced with 'e-class'
> vowels) in late Hebrew. Examples of the confusion may be found in 2 Samuel
> above in VARIANTS to 3:37, 22:43 and passim. Thus the superior reading is
> הקים אל, with 4QSama, Old Latin and the Lucianic Greek manuscripts. So,
> (sic!) Cross, Canaanite Myth, 234, n. 66. For a brief history of the
> discussion, see McCarter, II Samuel, 477. Compare the standard formula for
> the establishment of kings by God: והקים יהוה לו מלך (1 Kgs
14:14); יהוה
> אלהיו ... להקים את בנו (1Kgs 15:4); יהוה והקמתי (Jer
23:5); יהוה אלהיהם ...
> אקים (Jer 30:9). (Cross/Saley, 186).
>
>
>
> Andrew Fincke
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
> lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
>
>
>
> From: kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
>
>
>
> Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:29:05 -0300
>
>
>
> Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments. If
> you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Ken
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
>
>
>
> Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
>
>
>
> St. Francis Xavier University
>
>
>
> 902-867-2265
>
>
>
> kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
> lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:
> lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of John
> Milton
>
>
>
> Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM
>
>
>
> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
> lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
>
>
>
> Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Ken,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> J
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:
> kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > **
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> > Dick wrote:
>
>
>
> > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading
of
>
>
>
> > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”
>
>
>
> > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize
> the
>
>
>
> > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems
to
> me
>
>
>
> > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the
> Hebrew
>
>
>
> > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is
the
>
>
>
> > typical translation of אל.
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> > Ken
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
>
>
>
> > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:
>
>
>
> > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
>
>
>
> > St. Francis Xavier University
>
>
>
> > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca
> ><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:
> kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

LinkedIn
------------




     Thomas Moore requested to add you as a connection on LinkedIn:


------------------------------------------

Lxx,

I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn.

- Thomas

Accept invitation from Thomas Moore
http://www.linkedin.com/e/ialz2r-gwe2t220-68/vA7piIYI4s9hrrB3v6qA75QksOfihJW/blk\
/I200818162_13/1BpC5vrmRLoRZcjkkZt5YCpnlOt3RApnhMpmdzgmhxrSNBszYPclYOdz4UcjwMc39\
9bQdapmBLd4ZVbPgNejoPejsTczkLrCBxbOYWrSlI/EML_comm_afe/?hs=false&tok=2KtHWBFPiUO\
R01

View invitation from Thomas Moore
http://www.linkedin.com/e/ialz2r-gwe2t220-68/vA7piIYI4s9hrrB3v6qA75QksOfihJW/blk\
/I200818162_13/3cNnP8ScjwNe30McAALqnpPbOYWrSlI/svi/?hs=false&tok=1uQ-Zms6eUOR01

------------------------------------------

Why might connecting with Thomas Moore be a good idea?

Thomas Moore's connections could be useful to you:

After accepting Thomas Moore's invitation, check Thomas Moore's connections to
see who else you may know and who you might want an introduction to. Building
these connections can create opportunities in the future.

--
(c) 2011, LinkedIn Corporation

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This list member has been put on moderated status. Let this be a reminder that
we should all be exercising due diligence when joining social networks and
making sure the addresses of discussion lists to which we may subscribed do not
get entered as a "contact" at the social networking site. The resulting
invitation message constitutes spam with respect to the aims of this discussion
list and is an inconvenience and irritation to your fellow list members--who are
likely already waging spam battles of their own. We urge members to show greater
consideration and be more diligent about this.

Mods

--- On Mon, 12/19/11, Thomas Moore via LinkedIn <frthomas@...>
wrote:

> From: Thomas Moore via LinkedIn <frthomas@...>
> Subject: [lxx] Invitation to connect on LinkedIn
> To: "Lxx Yahoogroups" <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Monday, December 19, 2011, 5:48 PM
> LinkedIn
> ------------
>
> � � Thomas Moore requested to add you as a
> connection on LinkedIn:
> �
>
> ------------------------------------------
>
> Lxx,
>
> I'd like to add you to my professional network on
> LinkedIn.
>
> - Thomas
>
> Accept invitation from Thomas Moore
>
http://www.linkedin.com/e/ialz2r-gwe2t220-68/vA7piIYI4s9hrrB3v6qA75QksOfihJW/blk\
/I200818162_13/1BpC5vrmRLoRZcjkkZt5YCpnlOt3RApnhMpmdzgmhxrSNBszYPclYOdz4UcjwMc39\
9bQdapmBLd4ZVbPgNejoPejsTczkLrCBxbOYWrSlI/EML_comm_afe/?hs=false&tok=2KtHWBFPiUO\
R01
>
> View invitation from Thomas Moore
>
http://www.linkedin.com/e/ialz2r-gwe2t220-68/vA7piIYI4s9hrrB3v6qA75QksOfihJW/blk\
/I200818162_13/3cNnP8ScjwNe30McAALqnpPbOYWrSlI/svi/?hs=false&tok=1uQ-Zms6eUOR01
>
> ------------------------------------------
>
> Why might connecting with Thomas Moore be a good idea?
>
> Thomas Moore's connections could be useful to you:
>
> After accepting Thomas Moore's invitation, check Thomas
> Moore's connections to see who else you may know and who you
> might want an introduction to. Building these connections
> can create opportunities in the future.
>
> --
> (c) 2011, LinkedIn Corporation
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> � � lxx-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>

Hi there,

Is the text of Alexandrinus available in an electronic format?

Thanks!

Dale

For the NT, yes, Alexandrinus is available electronically. For the rest of
Alexandrinus, the only electronic portion of I know of is Isaiah, to be released
by Logos in the next few months:
http://www.logos.com/product/10088/works-of-richard-r-ottley
I hope this helps,
Ken

Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
St. Francis Xavier University
902-867-2265
kpenner@...




From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dale &
Yvonne Ogilvie
Sent: December-20-11 1:22 AM
To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [lxx] Electronic text of Codex A



Hi there,

Is the text of Alexandrinus available in an electronic format?

Thanks!

Dale



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am looking for a CD or MP3 download with the LXX  recited in original
Greek,not a translation,a recitation in original Greek.  Can anyone
assist,please.  I like to hear it and meditate.  BTW, I have the New Testament
Greek recited, so I thought i should get the LXX.
      Kindest wishes,friends!

Try doing a search through the Greek Orthodox Archdioceses (goarch) website
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: "jnanapipe" <jnanapipe@...>
Sender: lxx@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 19:42:58
To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [lxx] LXX Recited in Ancient Greek?  Advise

      I am looking for a CD or MP3 download with the LXX  recited in original
Greek,not a translation,a recitation in original Greek.  Can anyone
assist,please.  I like to hear it and meditate.  BTW, I have the New Testament
Greek recited, so I thought i should get the LXX.
      Kindest wishes,friends!





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Greetings,

You might make headway with the tool below, circulated recently on the
classicists listserv.

jk
--
Joel Kalvesmaki
http://www.kalvesmaki.com


Dear All,

I've put an instruction on how to get the computer read out classical Greek
(in Unicode) aloud on

http://www.uni-erfurt.de/geschichte/antike-kultur/dienstleistung/pc-liest-griech\
isch-vor/
(there is an English version on that page as well).

Provided you or your institution have a licensed access to the TLG,
Perseus, or any other website providing Greek texts in unicode format and
have the software read out all Greek text (even convert long texts into a
*.wav file playable on any walkman/ipod, should you wish to listen to the
whole of Herodotus in Greek on a train).

Best wishes for 2012, Kai


--
Praesident, Universitaet, Nordhaeuser Str. 63, D-99089 Erfurt
priv.: Haus zum Roten Schild, Meienbergstr. 5, D-99084 Erfurt
Tel. off. (+49)(0)361 7375000,      priv. (+49)(0)361 6443424
www.uni-erfurt.de/antike


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dale!
You're in luck!  I've got digital photos I made of the Fourth Maccabees part of
the codex from the copy of H. H. Baber, Vetus Testamentum Graecum e Codice Ms.
Alexandrino (3 vols., 1816-1821) in the Amherst College library.  Baber's book
is the only hand-written facsimile I know of - really a ton of work.
Hope that helps,
Andrew Fincke




To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
From: kpenner@...
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 02:56:37 -0400
Subject: RE: [lxx] Electronic text of Codex A






For the NT, yes, Alexandrinus is available electronically. For the rest of
Alexandrinus, the only electronic portion of I know of is Isaiah, to be released
by Logos in the next few months:
http://www.logos.com/product/10088/works-of-richard-r-ottley
I hope this helps,
Ken

Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
St. Francis Xavier University
902-867-2265
kpenner@...

From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dale &
Yvonne Ogilvie
Sent: December-20-11 1:22 AM
To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [lxx] Electronic text of Codex A

Hi there,

Is the text of Alexandrinus available in an electronic format?

Thanks!

Dale

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

See Mr. E. Marsh's LXX website. He has the entire Septuagint recited in the
original Greek. However, I believe its done by a computer voice, but I am not
sure.


Peter A. Papoutsis


________________________________
From: jnanapipe <jnanapipe@...>
To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2012 1:42 PM
Subject: [lxx] LXX Recited in Ancient Greek? Advise


 
I am looking for a CD or MP3 download with the LXX recited in original Greek,not
a translation,a recitation in original Greek. Can anyone assist,please. I like
to hear it and meditate. BTW, I have the New Testament Greek recited, so I
thought i should get the LXX.
Kindest wishes,friends!




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Here is the website:

http://ecmarsh.com/lxx/

Peter A. Papoutsis


________________________________
From: jnanapipe <jnanapipe@...>
To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2012 1:42 PM
Subject: [lxx] LXX Recited in Ancient Greek? Advise


 
I am looking for a CD or MP3 download with the LXX recited in original Greek,not
a translation,a recitation in original Greek. Can anyone assist,please. I like
to hear it and meditate. BTW, I have the New Testament Greek recited, so I
thought i should get the LXX.
Kindest wishes,friends!




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

About 6 months ago the list dealt with this.  As far as I recall, this is what
we came up with:  There are two recorded versions of the Greek OT - one in
Erasmian pronunciation and one in modern Greek.  Neither - at that time - were
complete, but both werre available to some degree, especially the Psalms.  I'm
unable to find the posts at the moment, since the list search engine isn't
working.
Andrew Fincke




To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
From: kalvesmaki@...
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 15:41:36 -0500
Subject: [lxx] Re: LXX Recited in Ancient Greek? Advise






Greetings,

You might make headway with the tool below, circulated recently on the
classicists listserv.

jk
--
Joel Kalvesmaki
http://www.kalvesmaki.com

Dear All,

I've put an instruction on how to get the computer read out classical Greek
(in Unicode) aloud on

http://www.uni-erfurt.de/geschichte/antike-kultur/dienstleistung/pc-liest-griech\
isch-vor/
(there is an English version on that page as well).

Provided you or your institution have a licensed access to the TLG,
Perseus, or any other website providing Greek texts in unicode format and
have the software read out all Greek text (even convert long texts into a
*.wav file playable on any walkman/ipod, should you wish to listen to the
whole of Herodotus in Greek on a train).

Best wishes for 2012, Kai

--
Praesident, Universitaet, Nordhaeuser Str. 63, D-99089 Erfurt
priv.: Haus zum Roten Schild, Meienbergstr. 5, D-99084 Erfurt
Tel. off. (+49)(0)361 7375000, priv. (+49)(0)361 6443424
www.uni-erfurt.de/antike

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Andrew, I was after the entire OT in electronic format, or failing
that a decent text so I can create my own.

On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 22:17:48 -0500, andrew fincke <finckea@...>
wrote:
> Dale!
> You're in luck!  I've got digital photos I made of the Fourth Maccabees
> part of the codex from the copy of H. H. Baber, Vetus Testamentum
Graecum e
> Codice Ms. Alexandrino (3 vols., 1816-1821) in the Amherst College
library.
> Baber's book is the only hand-written facsimile I know of - really a ton
> of work.
> Hope that helps,
> Andrew Fincke

Hi, Dale!
Here's the listing from the Amherst College catalog - not of the Baber facsimile
but rather of the only edition of Alexandrinus I'm aware - the Grebe edition in
four volumes, two of which came out posthumously in the hand of Wigan and Lee:




Bible. O.T. Greek. Septuagint. 1707.


Septuaginta interpretum ... quem ex antiquissimo MS. codic� Alexandrino accurate
descriptum ... Summa cura edidit Joannes Ernestus Grabe.



Oxonii :  E Theatro Sheldoniano,  1707-1720
From Swete, Introduction, 183-184:
"Grabe's edition is in the main a presentation of the text exhibited in a single
uncial codex ... but to a greater extent its text is in fact eclectic and
mixed....  The mixture ... is overt ... and can be checked at every point.  He
... mark(s) with an obelus the words, clauses or paragraphs in the MS for which
he found no equivalent in the Masoretic Hebrew and place(s) an asterisk before
such as he believed to have been derived from Theodotion (or elsewhere).  If he
adds (something to the MS or relegates from the MS to the margin) such additions
and substituted words are distinguished from the text of Cod. A (through)
smaller type."

For the audio Greek Bible try http://www.biblicalgreek.org/about/contact.php or
www.greekbiblos.gr.  The list search tool is working, but not finding the
discussion under the terms I entered: "Erasmus" and "Buth."  I sent an email to
the biblicalgreek website requesting information about the link to the audio
Bible.
Andrew Fincke




To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
From: dale@...
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 16:33:35 +1300
Subject: RE: [lxx] Electronic text of Codex A







Thanks Andrew, I was after the entire OT in electronic format, or failing
that a decent text so I can create my own.

On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 22:17:48 -0500, andrew fincke <finckea@...>
wrote:
> Dale!
> You're in luck! I've got digital photos I made of the Fourth Maccabees
> part of the codex from the copy of H. H. Baber, Vetus Testamentum
Graecum e
> Codice Ms. Alexandrino (3 vols., 1816-1821) in the Amherst College
library.
> Baber's book is the only hand-written facsimile I know of - really a ton
> of work.
> Hope that helps,
> Andrew Fincke





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Bob,

Once again I am seeking your assistance, this time regarding the issue of the
use of the codex form by Jews for manuscripts of the LXX/Old Greek.� I base my
query on a quotation from one of your papers, which is available online:
"Of course, if Jews were producing and using biblical codices in the late 2nd
and into the 3rd centuries, the argument/assumption that "if it's a codex, it's
Christian" is seriously jeapordized, and the unasked question of when Jews began
to use codices becomes even more relevant. "� (From "Early Jewish and Christian
Artefacts")
�
As far as mss in Hebrew are concerned, I have read that "The earliest written
evidence of the appearance of the codex among the Jews comes from the eighth
century, but most likely it was in use some time before that."� Also that ".
According to the Halakha (Jewish religious law), a Bible in codex form is not
acceptable for public reading in the synagogue. For that purpose scrolls
continued to be used, and it was forbidden to add vocalization and cantillation
marks to them." (www.aleppocodex.org)
�
My questions are as follows:
�
1.� Has research conducted either by yourself or by others since you published
the�paper cited above raised and attempted to answer what you described then�as
"the unasked question of when Jews began to use codices...?"� If so, could you
please point me to where I can locate the results of such research.
2. If, as you seem to suggest, Jews and "Christians" (using this latter term
anachronistically)�began using the codex form simultaneously;�and
if�"Christians" might even have adoped the practice from the Jews, what might
have been the motivation/s for the Jewish innovation?�
3.� I have also read somewhere that there is evidence that in some parts of the
diaspora the LXX of the Torah was read in the synagogues.� If that is indeed so
(I have never been able to locate published evidence for this), might one assume
that as with the Hebrew mss. after the eighth century, use of the Scriptures
in�codex form would have been prohibited in the context of synagogue worship?
�
As before, I should be very grateful for�your assistance (as�indeed that of
anyone in the LXX group) in responding to these questions.
�
With thanks for your attention and with every good wish.
�
Everard Johnston.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Good questions, with few definitive answers thus far. See my comments below.

Bob Kraft, UPenn Emeritus

On 3/6/2012 10:35 AM, everard johnston wrote:
> Dear Bob,
> Once again I am seeking your assistance, this time regarding the issue
> of the use of the codex form by Jews for manuscripts of the LXX/Old
> Greek.  I base my query on a quotation from one of your papers, which
> is available online:
> "Of course, if Jews were producing and using biblical /codices/ in the
> late 2nd and into the 3rd centuries, the argument/assumption that "if
> it's a codex, it's Christian" is seriously jeapordized, and the
> unasked question of when Jews began to use codices becomes even more
> relevant. "  (From "Early Jewish and Christian Artefacts")
> As far as mss in Hebrew are concerned, I have read that "The earliest
> written evidence of the appearance of the codex among the Jews comes
> from the eighth century, but most likely it was in use some time
> before that."  Also that ". According to the Halakha (Jewish religious
> law), a Bible in codex form is not acceptable for public reading in
> the synagogue. For that purpose scrolls continued to be used, and it
> was forbidden to add vocalization and cantillation marks to them."
> (www.aleppocodex.org <http://www.aleppocodex.org>)
> My questions are as follows:
> 1.  Has research conducted either by yourself or by others since you
> published the paper cited above raised and attempted to answer what
> you described then as "the unasked question of when Jews began to use
> codices...?"  If so, could you please point me to where I can locate
> the results of such research.
To my knowledge, the most recent relevant publication would be Roger
Bagnall's Early Christian Books in Egypt (Princeton U. 2009), especially
p.80: "there is, as Kraft admits, not a shred of evidence that the use
of the codex came from Judaism, for the simple reason that the surviving
fragments of possible Jewish codices come from a period no earlier than
the period (late second century) from which also come most of our early
Christian codex fragments." At least, Bagnall leaves open the
possibility of Jewish origin and/or influence.

> 2. If, as you seem to suggest, Jews and "Christians" (using this
> latter term anachronistically) began using the codex form
> simultaneously; and if "Christians" might even have adoped the
> practice from the Jews, what might have been the motivation/s for the
> Jewish innovation?

Bagnall sees the codex as part of "Romanization" in the period (our
earliest evidence for codices comes from Martial in Rome, and the use of
notebook codices in Roman contexts seems widespread), which could apply
to Jews as well as the Jesus groups. Unfortunately, we know too little
about Judaism(s) in Rome in the relevant period. I currently think that
the (widespread) use of codex notebooks (waxed wood pages, etc.) is most
likely to have led to flexible paged codices both in Rome and elsewhere.
Such an innovation could have caught fire in various contexts, including
booksellers (as in Martial) and "education" (see Raffaella Cribiore,
Gymnastics of the Mind [Princeton U., 2001]), in Rome and elsewhere in
the Graeco-Roman worlds. But "smoking gun" evidence is still not
available. IT is also noteworthy that codices seem to have been used
fairly early in legal materials and in astronomy-astrology-"religion"
circles, apart from Judaism or Christianity. More precise work needs to
be done in researching such areas.

> 3.  I have also read somewhere that there is evidence that in some
> parts of the diaspora the LXX of the Torah was read in the
> synagogues.  If that is indeed so (I have never been able to locate
> published evidence for this), might one assume that as with the Hebrew
> mss. after the eighth century, use of the Scriptures in codex form
> would have been prohibited in the context of synagogue worship?

One argument for "official" and/or "liturgical" use of LXX/OG materials
in Judaism comes from the impression that the Rylands Deut fragments
(see also the Fuad materials) come from a professionally produced scroll
likely to have been other than a private copy. Of course, we know so
little about "libraries," whether private (e.g. at Pompei) or
institutionally connected (as with synagogues or other "public"
settings), that to jump from a "luxurious" scroll to synagogue "liturgy"
(as different, perhaps, from synagogue based "educational" functions) is
quite a leap. Where were similarly professionally produced copies of
Homer (etc.) used or kept? But later, when Justinian issued his
"Novella" dealing with Jewish use of Greek scriptures, it seems clear
that his advisors assumed that Jews were using Greek scriptures in their
worship. After the 8th century we have little evidence for Jewish use of
Greek -- see now the work of Nicholas DeLange on the subject. And when
Jewish codices in Hebrew began to be used, was it only in "educational"
and/or private settings? The Rabbinic "prohibition" concerning
scroll/format has perhaps been given too much influence in assessing the
evidence (e.g. from the Cairo Genizah; see also Lieberman's old excursus
that I cite somewhere in my online collection).

> As before, I should be very grateful for your assistance (as indeed
> that of anyone in the LXX group) in responding to these questions.
> With thanks for your attention and with every good wish.
> Everard Johnston.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Bob,
�
Many thanks for your prompt reply to my e-mail.� Your responses to my questions
are very helpful.� I really appreciate your openness and willingness to be of
assistance.
�
With gratitude,
�
Everard.

From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
To: everard johnston <ejohnston105@...>
Cc: "lxx@yahoogroups.com" <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: Use of Codex format by Jews


Good questions, with few definitive answers thus far. See my comments below.

Bob Kraft, UPenn Emeritus

On 3/6/2012 10:35 AM, everard johnston wrote:
Dear Bob,
>
>Once again I am seeking your assistance, this time regarding the issue of the
use of the codex form by Jews for manuscripts of the LXX/Old Greek.� I base my
query on a quotation from one of your papers, which is available online:
>"Of course, if Jews were producing and using biblical codices in the late 2nd
and into the 3rd centuries, the argument/assumption that "if it's a codex, it's
Christian" is seriously jeapordized, and the unasked question of when Jews began
to use codices becomes even more relevant. "� (From "Early Jewish and Christian
Artefacts")
>�
>As far as mss in Hebrew are concerned, I have read that "The earliest written
evidence of the appearance of the codex among the Jews comes from the eighth
century, but most likely it was in use some time before that."� Also that ".
According to the Halakha (Jewish religious law), a Bible in codex form is not
acceptable for public reading in the synagogue. For that purpose scrolls
continued to be used, and it was forbidden to add vocalization and cantillation
marks to them." (www.aleppocodex.org)
>�
>My questions are as follows:
>�
>1.� Has research conducted either by yourself or by others since you published
the�paper cited above raised and attempted to answer what you described then�as
"the unasked question of when Jews began to use codices...?"� If so, could you
please point me to where I can locate the results of such research.To my
knowledge, the most recent relevant publication would be Roger Bagnall's Early
Christian Books in Egypt (Princeton U. 2009), especially p.80: "there is, as
Kraft admits, not a shred of evidence that the use of the codex came from
Judaism, for the simple reason that the surviving fragments of possible Jewish
codices come from a period no earlier than the period (late second century) from
which also come most of our early Christian codex fragments." At least, Bagnall
leaves open the possibility of Jewish origin and/or influence.


2. If, as you seem to suggest, Jews and "Christians" (using this latter term
anachronistically)�began using the codex form simultaneously;�and
if�"Christians" might even have adoped the practice from the Jews, what might
have been the motivation/s for the Jewish innovation?
>
Bagnall sees the codex as part of "Romanization" in the period (our earliest
evidence for codices comes from Martial in Rome, and the use of notebook codices
in Roman contexts seems widespread), which could apply to Jews as well as the
Jesus groups. Unfortunately, we know too little about Judaism(s) in Rome in the
relevant period. I currently think that the (widespread) use of codex notebooks
(waxed wood pages, etc.) is most likely to have led to flexible paged codices
both in Rome and elsewhere. Such an innovation could have caught fire in various
contexts, including booksellers (as in Martial) and "education" (see Raffaella
Cribiore, Gymnastics of the Mind [Princeton U., 2001]), in Rome and elsewhere in
the Graeco-Roman worlds. But "smoking gun" evidence is still not available. IT
is also noteworthy that codices seem to have been used fairly early in legal
materials and in astronomy-astrology-"religion" circles, apart from Judaism or
Christianity. More
  precise work needs to be done in researching such areas.


3.� I have also read somewhere that there is evidence that in some parts of the
diaspora the LXX of the Torah was read in the synagogues.� If that is indeed so
(I have never been able to locate published evidence for this), might one assume
that as with the Hebrew mss. after the eighth century, use of the Scriptures
in�codex form would have been prohibited in the context of synagogue worship?
One argument for "official" and/or "liturgical" use of LXX/OG materials in
Judaism comes from the impression that the Rylands Deut fragments (see also the
Fuad materials) come from a professionally produced scroll likely to have been
other than a private copy. Of course, we know so little about "libraries,"
whether private (e.g. at Pompei) or institutionally connected (as with
synagogues or other "public" settings), that to jump from a "luxurious" scroll
to synagogue "liturgy" (as different, perhaps, from synagogue based
"educational" functions) is quite a leap. Where were similarly professionally
produced copies of Homer (etc.) used or kept? But later, when Justinian issued
his "Novella" dealing with Jewish use of Greek scriptures, it seems clear that
his advisors assumed that Jews were using Greek scriptures in their worship.
After the 8th century we have little evidence for Jewish use of Greek -- see now
the work of Nicholas DeLange on the subject.
  And when Jewish codices in Hebrew began to be used, was it only in
"educational" and/or private settings? The Rabbinic "prohibition" concerning
scroll/format has perhaps been given too much influence in assessing the
evidence (e.g. from the Cairo Genizah; see also Lieberman's old excursus that I
cite somewhere in my online collection).
�

�
>As before, I should be very grateful for�your assistance (as�indeed that of
anyone in the LXX group) in responding to these questions.
>�
>With thanks for your attention and with every good wish.
>�
>Everard Johnston.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Everybody:

I have been trying to find a copy of the "Prophetologion" as recently published
by the publishing arm of the Church of Greece "Apostoliki Diakonia." As you know
the Prophetologion contains all the Old Testament LXX readings for�the period of
Great Lent and so forth in the Orthodox Church.

It was on the Orthodox Market Place, but they have since deleted it. Has anyone
seen it any place else for sale? Let me know if anybody knows anything. Being
the Lent is starting on Monday I would love to get a copy for this Lenten
Season.


Peter A. Papoutsis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Below is a link that I found, hope it helps...Pamela

PROPHETOLOGION

READINGS FOR VESPERS



http://www.anastasis.org.uk/prophetologion.htm

> **
>
>
> Hi Everybody:
>
> I have been trying to find a copy of the "Prophetologion" as recently
> published by the publishing arm of the Church of Greece "Apostoliki
> Diakonia." As you know the Prophetologion contains all the Old Testament
> LXX readings for the period of Great Lent and so forth in the Orthodox
> Church.
>
> It was on the Orthodox Market Place, but they have since deleted it. Has
> anyone seen it any place else for sale? Let me know if anybody knows
> anything. Being the Lent is starting on Monday I would love to get a copy
> for this Lenten Season.
>
> Peter A. Papoutsis
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-original message-
Subject: [lxx] Apostoliki Diakonia Prophetologion
From: Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@...>
Date: 11/03/2012 6:01 am

Hi Everybody:

I have been trying to find a copy of the "Prophetologion" as recently published
by the publishing arm of the Church of Greece "Apostoliki Diakonia." As you know
the Prophetologion contains all the Old Testament LXX readings for the period of
Great Lent and so forth in the Orthodox Church.

It was on the Orthodox Market Place, but they have since deleted it. Has anyone
seen it any place else for sale? Let me know if anybody knows anything. Being
the Lent is starting on Monday I would love to get a copy for this Lenten
Season.


Peter A. Papoutsis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have a copy of it - and I am sure that ALEXANDER PRESS in Montreal can order
it for you. (Hadjinikolaou is the owner of the Press. I believe they have a
website.)
BTW, the anastasis "prophetologion" is NOT what you are looking for.
BTW - again - the Apostolike diakonia edition has demotike and hellenistic on
FACING pages. And it essentially gives you EVERY OT pericope for EVERY service
according to the CURRENT usage of the Greek Orthodox church.
Peter

Rev. Peter Galadza, PhD
Kule Family Professor of Liturgy
Sheptytsky Institute of Eastern Christian Studies
Faculty of Theology
Saint Paul University
223 Main Street
Ottawa, Ontario Canada
K1S 1C4
Office telephone: 613-236-1393 extension 2419
Extension to Sheptytsky Institute reception: 2332
Fax to office: 613-782-3026
Home telephone: 613-230-0997


>>> <dale@...> 03/10/12 3:10 PM >>>


-original message-
Subject: [lxx] Apostoliki Diakonia Prophetologion
From: Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@...>
Date: 11/03/2012 6:01 am

Hi Everybody:

I have been trying to find a copy of the "Prophetologion" as recently published
by the publishing arm of the Church of Greece "Apostoliki Diakonia." As you know
the Prophetologion contains all the Old Testament LXX readings for the period of
Great Lent and so forth in the Orthodox Church.

It was on the Orthodox Market Place, but they have since deleted it. Has anyone
seen it any place else for sale? Let me know if anybody knows anything. Being
the Lent is starting on Monday I would love to get a copy for this Lenten
Season.


Peter A. Papoutsis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi, everyone,

I've just joined this group and am hoping it's still active. I've
recently developed an interest in the Septuagint, by way of Hebrew and
Greek courses in seminary. I'm currently doing a directed study in the
Septuagint of Micah and the first four chapters of I Maccabees.  I don't
know if newcomers typically introduce themselves on this list, but if
so, here <http://abramkj.wordpress.com/about/>  's a bit about me.

Having begun my Greek study with New Testament, I am having all the same
issues others have in trying to switch over to read LXX Greek.
Primarily the challenge has been the much larger vocabulary pool of the
LXX.

I'm recently using Bernard Taylor's expanded analytical lexicon for the
Septuagint, and I think it's great. I also have benefited immensely from
the word frequency counts in the Lust lexicon. It's got me wondering...
do you all think there would be enough interest in either a reader's
lexicon of the Septuagint (formatted something like this
<http://www.amazon.com/New-Readers-Lexicon-Greek-Testament/dp/0825420091\
/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1341264648&sr=1-1&keywords=greek+english\
+lexicon+burer>  ) or a reader's edition of the LXX itself (along the
lines of this
<http://www.amazon.com/Readers-Hebrew-Bible-Philip-Brown/dp/0310269741/r\
ef=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1341264686&sr=1-1&keywords=reader%27s+hebr\
ew+bible>  ) to justify work toward that?  Or does something like that
already exist?

I know of Rod Decker's LXX vocabulary lists
<http://faculty.bbc.edu/rdecker/lxx.htm>  , and those have been helpful.
I would just love to have (some day!) a reader's LXX....

Sincerely,

Abram Kielsmeier-Jones
http://abramkj.wordpress.com/tag/septuagint/
<http://abramkj.wordpress.com/tag/septuagint/>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Personally, I would love a Reader's Version of the LXX.


Peter A. Papoutsis


________________________________
From: abramkielsmeierjones <abramkielsmeierjones@...>
To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 2, 2012 4:36 PM
Subject: [lxx] Reader's Septuagint? or Reader's Lexicon for the Septuagint?


 
Hi, everyone,

I've just joined this group and am hoping it's still active. I've
recently developed an interest in the Septuagint, by way of Hebrew and
Greek courses in seminary. I'm currently doing a directed study in the
Septuagint of Micah and the first four chapters of I Maccabees. I don't
know if newcomers typically introduce themselves on this list, but if
so, here <http://abramkj.wordpress.com/about/> 's a bit about me.

Having begun my Greek study with New Testament, I am having all the same
issues others have in trying to switch over to read LXX Greek.
Primarily the challenge has been the much larger vocabulary pool of the
LXX.

I'm recently using Bernard Taylor's expanded analytical lexicon for the
Septuagint, and I think it's great. I also have benefited immensely from
the word frequency counts in the Lust lexicon. It's got me wondering...
do you all think there would be enough interest in either a reader's
lexicon of the Septuagint (formatted something like this
<http://www.amazon.com/New-Readers-Lexicon-Greek-Testament/dp/0825420091/ref=sr_\
1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1341264648&sr=1-1&keywords=greek+english+lexicon+burer>
) or a reader's edition of the LXX itself (along the
lines of this
<http://www.amazon.com/Readers-Hebrew-Bible-Philip-Brown/dp/0310269741/ref=sr_1_\
1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1341264686&sr=1-1&keywords=reader%27s+hebrew+bible> ) to
justify work toward that? Or does something like that
already exist?

I know of Rod Decker's LXX vocabulary lists
<http://faculty.bbc.edu/rdecker/lxx.htm> , and those have been helpful.
I would just love to have (some day!) a reader's LXX....

Sincerely,

Abram Kielsmeier-Jones
http://abramkj.wordpress.com/tag/septuagint/
<http://abramkj.wordpress.com/tag/septuagint/>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You may also want to ask this question at the "Septuagint and Pseudepigrapha"
section of the Biblical Greek forum, at
http://www-test.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewforum.php?f=7

One of the challenges would be to find an appropriate base text and secure the
appropriate permissions. The G�ttingen text is preferable but incomplete, and I
doubt the desired permissions would be forthcoming. According to my
understanding of copyright law, it seems to me that Rahlfs' 1935 edition has
entered the public domain in some countries, but not all. I know some publishers
have instead used Swete's text, which is clearly in the public domain.

You may be interested in Tom Moore's
http://en.katabiblon.com/us/index.php?text=LXX or John Barach's
http://www.motorera.com/greek/text/greek.html or John Dyer's
http://biblewebapp.com/reader/ or Cube Whidden's http://www.septuagint.org/LXX

I have some related experience, in that I have produced a Reader's Lexicon of
the Qumran Dead Sea Scrolls (based on the database for my Flash! Pro vocabulary
memorization software), but I have not published it.


Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:
http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/
kpenner@...




From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
abramkielsmeierjones
Sent: July-02-12 6:37 PM
To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [lxx] Reader's Septuagint? or Reader's Lexicon for the Septuagint?



Hi, everyone,

I've just joined this group and am hoping it's still active. I've
recently developed an interest in the Septuagint, by way of Hebrew and
Greek courses in seminary. I'm currently doing a directed study in the
Septuagint of Micah and the first four chapters of I Maccabees. I don't
know if newcomers typically introduce themselves on this list, but if
so, here <http://abramkj.wordpress.com/about/> 's a bit about me.

Having begun my Greek study with New Testament, I am having all the same
issues others have in trying to switch over to read LXX Greek.
Primarily the challenge has been the much larger vocabulary pool of the
LXX.

I'm recently using Bernard Taylor's expanded analytical lexicon for the
Septuagint, and I think it's great. I also have benefited immensely from
the word frequency counts in the Lust lexicon. It's got me wondering...
do you all think there would be enough interest in either a reader's
lexicon of the Septuagint (formatted something like this
<http://www.amazon.com/New-Readers-Lexicon-Greek-Testament/dp/0825420091\
/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1341264648&sr=1-1&keywords=greek+english\
+lexicon+burer<http://www.amazon.com/New-Readers-Lexicon-Greek-Testament/dp/0825\
420091/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1341264648&sr=1-1&keywords=greek+english+l\
exicon+burer>> ) or a reader's edition of the LXX itself (along the
lines of this
<http://www.amazon.com/Readers-Hebrew-Bible-Philip-Brown/dp/0310269741/r\
ef=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1341264686&sr=1-1&keywords=reader%27s+hebr\
ew+bible<http://www.amazon.com/Readers-Hebrew-Bible-Philip-Brown/dp/0310269741/r\
ef=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1341264686&sr=1-1&keywords=reader%27s+hebrew+bible\
>> ) to justify work toward that? Or does something like that
already exist?

I know of Rod Decker's LXX vocabulary lists
<http://faculty.bbc.edu/rdecker/lxx.htm> , and those have been helpful.
I would just love to have (some day!) a reader's LXX....

Sincerely,

Abram Kielsmeier-Jones
http://abramkj.wordpress.com/tag/septuagint/
<http://abramkj.wordpress.com/tag/septuagint/>

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