Concerning Pat & Jim email, coud you give me some example ?
Thks
Ivan Karel ---------------------- No, I can't give any specific example. What I was thinking of was that when a person would be writing or speaking he might just quote a verse without having a document before him to copy from. As he would quote it, it might not be exactly as written or he might have
just paraphrased it as he spoke or wrote. For example, I have paraphrased the words of Jesus when I have said "...unless a person is born again..." instead of "...except a man be born again..." as it reads in the KJV. Also, when ministering in a hospital and anointing a person with oil, I some times quote james 5:13-18. In the KJV it says "...The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much..." When I quote that I usually just say, "The effective fervent prayer of a righteous person avails much..." I am not deliberately misquoting or twisting the Scriptures, I am just paraphrasing. I think most of us have done that and I am just assuming that in the first century they probably did the same thing. James Ellis http://www.geocities.com/patandjimellis/index.html
Friends,
I am sending a brief notice here, especially for list members in
Europe, regarding a conference to be held 9 May 2007.
SEPTUAGINTA: Libri sacri della diaspora giudaica e dei cristiani. VII
Giornata di studio: «Il 'Cronista', Esdra e Neemia: la dialettica fra
regalità e sacerdozio» will be hosted by Dipartmento di science
religiose, Istituto di glottologia, at Università Cattolica del Sacro
Cruore in Milan.
For more information download the flyer, which I've posted on my LXX
website:
http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/Septuaginta.pdf
Best wishes,
jk
Joel Kalvesmaki
LXX discussion list co-moderator
have many readers been pondering the tale of Honi the Circle Drawer ascribed to Habakkuk in Babylonian Talmud Taanith 23, this seems to lead ascribing APOSKOPEUO to Honi in LXX Hab 2:1, SKAPTO (digging, in the tale of Honi) and SKAFE (in Habakkuk as the cook in Bel and Draco, addition to Daniel). Perhaps there is well known word play describing Habakkuk in Ancient times!
I just wanted to announce the creation of a new Yahoo Group
called "Greek Geeks":
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/greek_geeks/
The scope of the new Greek Geeks forum is intended to both expand upon
and complement the B-Greek list as well as the textualcriticism list.
What better thing for Greek Geeks than to have another resource?? One
of our plans is to have a periodic "project" to keep people interested
and involved. The first planned "project" is to analyze and translate
online images of Codex Bezae, working at an initial pace of one new
chapter every other week. Feel free to begin any "project" you think
would be interesting, such as working on the grammar, palaeography, or
text critical "problems" of a portion of the LXX!
Please drop by, sign up, and participate!
Bryan Cox
Plano, Tx
Brenton translates GENESIS 14:13 as "And one of them that had been rescued came and told Abram the Hebrew..." And yet the Greek word he is translating as "Hebrew" is peratn (my transliteration without a Greek font). What does this word mean? Surely not "Hebrew." The closest I could find in a Greek dictionary was "on the opposite side, of the west as opposed to the east." Brenton's footnote says "Greek: passer." What is he saying?
Brenton translates GENESIS 14:13 as "And one of them that had been rescued came and told Abram the Hebrew..." And yet the Greek word he is translating as "Hebrew" is peratn (my transliteration without a Greek font). What does this word mean? Surely not "Hebrew." The closest I could find in a Greek dictionary was "on the opposite side, of the west as opposed to the east." Brenton's footnote says "Greek: passer." What is he saying?
To add to what Phillippe says, the word peratêi in the LXX/OG is an attempt to translate the word `ivri. Normally this word is translated as an ethnic descriptor (i.e. ‘Hebrew’). However, the LXX/OG instead seeks to understand the word (I’d note, applied to Abraham only here, and only translated by the LXX/OG as “peratos” here, as far as I can tell) using its triliteral root ayin-waw-resh, a root which literally means ‘to cross’--Avraham ha-`ivri is thus glossed as Abram toi peratêi and the sentence Paragenomenos de tôn anasôthentôn tis apêngeillên tôi Abram toi peratêi. ‘Happening by, one of those who had returned spoke to Abraham, the wanderer.’ One may speculate on the reasons why this translation was chosen: was there some problem with classifying Abraham as a Hebrew? After all, he is the ancestor of Ishmaelites, Israelites, Edomites, Midianites, Moabites, etc.
JW
--
Jed Wyrick Department of Religious Studies
Coordinator, Modern Jewish and Israel Studies
California State University, Chico
Chico, CA 95929-0740
530-898-6379
jwyrick@...
From: dmitri zagvazdin <zagvazdin@...> Reply-To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com> Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 11:11:06 -0700 (PDT) To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com> Subject: [lxx] question
Brenton translates GENESIS 14:13 as "And one of them that had been rescued came and told Abram the Hebrew..." And yet the Greek word he is translating as "Hebrew" is peratn (my transliteration without a Greek font). What does this word mean? Surely not "Hebrew." The closest I could find in a Greek dictionary was "on the opposite side, of the west as opposed to the east." Brenton's footnote says "Greek: passer." What is he saying?
The Greek word PERATH (from PERATHS)
carries the meaning of “migrant” and “wanderer” which
is what Brenton’s footnote is alluding to. This may correspond to the
possible meaning of the word “Hebrew” in the MT.Abram (later Abraham) was told to
leave Ur of the Chaldees (Mesopotamia) and he
moved westward towards Canaan (Gen. 12:1ff). Thus
the emphasis on the west side of the east (Mesopotamia).
Some see this term as having reference to Abraham’s forefather Eber (Gen.
10:21). Best wishes,
Tony Costa, PhD (cand)
From:
lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dmitri zagvazdin Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007
2:11 PM To: lxx@yahoogroups.com Subject: [lxx] question
Brenton translates GENESIS 14:13 as "And one of them
that had been rescued came and told Abram the Hebrew..." And yet the Greek
word he is translating as "Hebrew" is peratn (my transliteration
without a Greek font). What does this word mean? Surely not
"Hebrew." The closest I could find in a Greek dictionary was "on
the opposite side, of the west as opposed to the east." Brenton's footnote
says "Greek: passer." What is he saying?
Dear Dmitri,
Liddell-Scott, 1365 bottom is unambiguous as to peraths. It's a wanderer
that Philo explains as Ebraios. Here's the place from Philo, De migratione
Abrahami, cited from BibleWorks 7:
to. auvcei/n evpi. tw/| ge,noj ei=nai ~Ebrai,wn( oi-j e;qoj avpo. tw/n
aivsqhtw/n evpi. ta. nohta. metani,stasqai pera,thj ga.r o` ~Ebrai/oj
e`rmhneu,etai(
It basically says:
"To boast to be of the race of the Hebrews, whose natural instinct was to
move around, since peraths means Ebraios (Hebrew)".
Andrew Fincke
>From: "Tony Costa" <tmcos@...>
>Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
>To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: RE: [lxx] question
>Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 14:48:28 -0400
>
>The Greek word PERATH (from PERATHS) carries the meaning of "migrant" and
>"wanderer" which is what Brenton's footnote is alluding to. This may
>correspond to the possible meaning of the word "Hebrew" in the MT. Abram
>(later Abraham) was told to leave Ur of the Chaldees (Mesopotamia) and he
>moved westward towards Canaan (Gen. 12:1ff). Thus the emphasis on the west
>side of the east (Mesopotamia). Some see this term as having reference to
>Abraham's forefather Eber (Gen. 10:21). Best wishes,
>
>
>
>Tony Costa, PhD (cand)
>
>
>
> _____
>
>From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dmitri
>zagvazdin
>Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 2:11 PM
>To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [lxx] question
>
>
>
>Brenton translates GENESIS 14:13 as "And one of them that had been rescued
>came and told Abram the Hebrew..." And yet the Greek word he is translating
>as "Hebrew" is peratn (my transliteration without a Greek font). What does
>this word mean? Surely not "Hebrew." The closest I could find in a Greek
>dictionary was "on the opposite side, of the west as opposed to the east."
>Brenton's footnote says "Greek: passer." What is he saying?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
>Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
>Check out new
><http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48245/*http:/autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html;_ylc=
>X3oDMTE1YW1jcXJ2BF9TAzk3MTA3MDc2BHNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDbmV3LWNhcnM-> cars
>at Yahoo! Autos.
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office
Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/
Interesting. I received this message, but not the earlier two. Wonder why?
In any event, the last part of Andrew's quote from Philo should read "the word
'Hebrew' is
translated [or means, in Greek] 'one who passes by' (peraths)." This is but one
of scores of
passages in which Philo translates Hebrew terms for his readers. For more, see
L. Grabbe,
Etymology in Early Jewish Interpretation: the Hebrew Names in Philo, Brown
Judaic Series 115
(Atlanta: Scholars Press 1988).
Bob Kraft, UPenn
> Dear Dmitri,
> Liddell-Scott, 1365 bottom is unambiguous as to peraths. It's a wanderer
> that Philo explains as Ebraios. Here's the place from Philo, De migratione
> Abrahami, cited from BibleWorks 7:
> to. auvcei/n evpi. tw/| ge,noj ei=nai ~Ebrai,wn( oi-j e;qoj avpo. tw/n
> aivsqhtw/n evpi. ta. nohta. metani,stasqai pera,thj ga.r o` ~Ebrai/oj
> e`rmhneu,etai(
> It basically says:
> "To boast to be of the race of the Hebrews, whose natural instinct was to
> move around, since peraths means Ebraios (Hebrew)".
> Andrew Fincke
>
>
> >From: "Tony Costa" <tmcos@...>
> >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
> >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
> >Subject: RE: [lxx] question
> >Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 14:48:28 -0400
> >
> >The Greek word PERATH (from PERATHS) carries the meaning of "migrant" and
> >"wanderer" which is what Brenton's footnote is alluding to. This may
> >correspond to the possible meaning of the word "Hebrew" in the MT. Abram
> >(later Abraham) was told to leave Ur of the Chaldees (Mesopotamia) and he
> >moved westward towards Canaan (Gen. 12:1ff). Thus the emphasis on the west
> >side of the east (Mesopotamia). Some see this term as having reference to
> >Abraham's forefather Eber (Gen. 10:21). Best wishes,
> >
> >
> >
> >Tony Costa, PhD (cand)
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> >From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dmitri
> >zagvazdin
> >Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 2:11 PM
> >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [lxx] question
> >
> >
> >
> >Brenton translates GENESIS 14:13 as "And one of them that had been rescued
> >came and told Abram the Hebrew..." And yet the Greek word he is translating
> >as "Hebrew" is peratn (my transliteration without a Greek font). What does
> >this word mean? Surely not "Hebrew." The closest I could find in a Greek
> >dictionary was "on the opposite side, of the west as opposed to the east."
> >Brenton's footnote says "Greek: passer." What is he saying?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> >Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
> >Check out new
> ><http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48245/*http:/autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html;_ylc=
> >X3oDMTE1YW1jcXJ2BF9TAzk3MTA3MDc2BHNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDbmV3LWNhcnM-> cars
> >at Yahoo! Autos.
> >
> >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office
> Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
--
Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
kraft@...
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
Interesting. I received this message, but not the earlier two. Wonder why?
In any event, the last part of Andrew's quote from Philo should read "the word 'Hebrew' is
translated [or means, in Greek] 'one who passes by' (peraths)." This is but one of scores of
passages in which Philo translates Hebrew terms for his readers. For more, see L. Grabbe,
Etymology in Early Jewish Interpretation: the Hebrew Names in Philo, Brown Judaic Series 115
(Atlanta: Scholars Press 1988).
Bob Kraft, UPenn
> Dear Dmitri,
> Liddell-Scott, 1365 bottom is unambiguous as to peraths. It's a wanderer
> that Philo explains as Ebraios. Here's the place from Philo, De migratione
> Abrahami, cited from BibleWorks 7:
> to. auvcei/n evpi. tw/| ge,noj ei=nai ~Ebrai,wn( oi-j e;qoj avpo. tw/n
> aivsqhtw/n evpi. ta. nohta. metani,stasqai pera,thj ga.r o` ~Ebrai/oj
> e`rmhneu,etai(
> It basically says:
> "To boast to be of the race of the Hebrews, whose natural instinct was to
> move around, since peraths means Ebraios (Hebrew)".
> Andrew Fincke
>
>
> >From: "Tony Costa" <tmcos@rogers.com>
> >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
> >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
> >Subject: RE: [lxx] question
> >Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 14:48:28 -0400
> >
> >The Greek word PERATH (from PERATHS) carries the meaning of "migrant" and
> >"wanderer" which is what Brenton's footnote is alluding to. This may
> >correspond to the possible meaning of the word "Hebrew" in the MT. Abram
> >(later Abraham) was told to leave Ur of the Chaldees (Mesopotamia) and he
> >moved westward towards Canaan (Gen. 12:1ff). Thus the emphasis on the west
> >side of the east (Mesopotamia). Some see this term as having reference to
> >Abraham's forefather Eber (Gen. 10:21). Best wishes,
> >
> >
> >
> >Tony Costa, PhD (cand)
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> >From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dmitri
> >zagvazdin
> >Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 2:11 PM
> >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [lxx] question
> >
> >
> >
> >Brenton translates GENESIS 14:13 as "And one of them that had been rescued
> >came and told Abram the Hebrew..." And yet the Greek word he is translating
> >as "Hebrew" is peratn (my transliteration without a Greek font). What does
> >this word mean? Surely not "Hebrew." The closest I could find in a Greek
> >dictionary was "on the opposite side, of the west as opposed to the east."
> >Brenton's footnote says "Greek: passer." What is he saying?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> >Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
> >Check out new
> ><http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48245/*http:/autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html;_ylc=
> >X3oDMTE1YW1jcXJ2BF9TAzk3MTA3MDc2BHNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDbmV3LWNhcnM-> cars
> >at Yahoo! Autos.
> >
> >
> >
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office
> Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
currently I have been researching the PELEIOI qualifying eyes in the LXX Proverbs 23:29, the PELEIOI being rare word in LXX and translating HKLLWT that has only parallel in Masoretic text there in Judah blessing of Gen 49:12 where it qualifies his eyes, too- and the Targums ascribe to him glass- eyes (Neophyti and Pseudo Jonathan)! But PELEIOI recalls doves, and much is here iProv 23 and 30 written of AETOS, the eagle or Falcon- obviously Eye of the Falcon Horus is known as polished magical stone, too. Have some readers been thinking of such comparisons possibly.
Best Wishes, Pasi K. Pohjala London
Heute schon einen Blick in die Zukunft von E-Mails wagen? Versuchen Sie´s mit dem neuen Yahoo! Mail.
Dear Pasi,
As Bob, I'm sure, will agree, PELEOI is an error for TELEOI "complete,
mature, full-grown", since pe and tau are almost indistinguishable in uncial
script. What does TELEOI have to do with chaklilut? CHAKLILUT is itself an
error for HAKLILUT, since chet and he are almost indistinguoshable in
Hebrew. KALIL means "complete" in Hebrew. See Judges 20:40: KALIL HA-'IR =
H SUNTELEIA HS POLEWS. But what does this letter-switch (the one in Greek)
have to do with that letter-switch (the one in Hebrew)? Chet is two
uprights with a horizontal across the top. So is pe. When you can't
translate a word - and who can translate a monstrosity like CHAKLILUT? - you
strip off the problem letter (chet) and turn it into its Greek look-alike.
Andrew Fincke
>From: pasi pohjala <pkpohjala@...>
>Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
>To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [lxx] The LXX and MT or Proverbs 23 and 30- the PELEIOI eyes and
>Eye of Falcon Horus
>Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 18:07:57 +0200 (CEST)
>
>Dear Researchers of LXX,
>
> currently I have been researching the PELEIOI qualifying eyes in the LXX
>Proverbs 23:29, the PELEIOI being rare word in LXX and translating HKLLWT
>that has only parallel in Masoretic text there in Judah blessing of Gen
>49:12 where it qualifies his eyes, too- and the Targums ascribe to him
>glass- eyes (Neophyti and Pseudo Jonathan)! But PELEIOI recalls doves, and
>much is here iProv 23 and 30 written of AETOS, the eagle or Falcon-
>obviously Eye of the Falcon Horus is known as polished magical stone, too.
>Have some readers been thinking of such comparisons possibly.
>
> Best Wishes, Pasi K. Pohjala London
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Heute schon einen Blick in die Zukunft von E-Mails wagen? Versuchen Sie�s
>mit dem neuen Yahoo! Mail.
><< CHAPTERJUDAH1005.doc >>
_________________________________________________________________
Catch suspicious messages before you open them—with Windows Live Hotmail.
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First I want to apologize for my approximate English. I am a French
student in medieval History of Art and I am conducting a research
about the iconographic type (image) of the "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
before iconoclasm and its meaning. Then I am specially interested by
all textual reliable sources. After a short research on database like
the BIOLA University (http://unbound.biola.edu/), I found that this
term appears 51 times in the Old Testament. But I am not sure that the
translation of the term "Pantocrator" which have been
chosen for the Greeks is truly or genuinely in relation with the
original meaning from the Hebrew Bible before she was translated into
Greek for the LXX between the 3rd to 1st in Alexandria.
Is any one can give me pieces of information about this original
meaning, in other words, is the translation "Pantocrator" is correct.
If not, what is the original meaning in the Jewish texts. I have read
the different messages of this forum about this theme (Almighty) : I
understand that this translation is debatable, but I do not really
understand the original correct meaning (in short terms). If you need,
I can indicate all the parts where the term Pantocrator is used in the
Old Testament.
In a second time, maybe, there are on this forum few specialists of
the first centuries after Christ and maybe they are able to indicate
me the texts of patristic (by example Athanase of Alexandria) which
used this term of Pantocrator ?
Thanks a lot.
With best regards.
Olivier KOULYTCHIZKY
(Université Toulouse II)
Pantokrator was used to translate the Hebrew title El Shaddai. Early Christians ascribed this title to Jesus of Nazareth.
The most common translation of Pantocrator is "Almighty" or "All-powerful." In this understanding, Pantokrator is a compound word formed from the Greek words for "all" and the noun "strength" (¦Ê¦Ñ¦Á¦Ó¦Ï¦ø). This is often understood in terms of potential power; i.e., able to do anything, or omnipotentent.
Another, less literal translation is "Ruler of All" or "Sustainer of the World." In this understanding, Pantokrator is a compound word formed from the Greek for "all" and the verb meaning "To accomplish something" or "to sustain something" (¦Ê¦Ñ¦Á¦Ó¦Å¦Ø). This translation speaks more to God's actual power; i.e., God does everything (as opposed to God can do everything).
The Pantokrator, largely a Byzantine or Eastern Orthodox theological issue is by that name largely unknown to Roman Catholicism and most Protestants. Pantokrator is roughly synonymous with the western concept of omnipotence. But omnipotence is power in stasis while the power of the Pantokrator is dynamic.
Uses in the New Testament
In quoting the Septuagint, Paul uses Pantokrator once (2 Cor. 6:18). Aside from that one occurrence, the author of the Book of Revelation is the only New Testament author to use the word Pantokrator. The author of Revelation uses the word nine times,[1] and while the references to God and Christ in Revelation are at times interchangeable, Pantokrator appears to be reserved for God alone.
This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information intended only for the addressee named above. If you are not the addressee or the intended recipient of this message, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the addressee, then be notified hereby that any dissemination or duplication of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please telephone us immediately, return the message to the sender, and delete the original message from your system.
----- Original Message ---- From: olivier.koulytchizky <olivier.koulytchizky@...> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 8:30:05 AM Subject: [lxx] The meanings of the term : "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
First I want to apologize for my approximate English. I am a French student in medieval History of Art and I am conducting a research about the iconographic type (image) of the "Pantocrator" (Almighty) before iconoclasm and its meaning. Then I am specially interested by all textual reliable sources. After a short research on database like the BIOLA University (http://unbound. biola.edu/), I found that this term appears 51 times in the Old Testament. But I am not sure that the translation of the term "Pantocrator" which have been chosen for the Greeks is truly or genuinely in relation with the original meaning from the Hebrew Bible before she was translated into Greek for the LXX between the 3rd to 1st in Alexandria.
Is any one can give me pieces of information about this original meaning, in other words, is the translation "Pantocrator" is correct. If not, what
is the original meaning in the Jewish texts. I have read the different messages of this forum about this theme (Almighty) : I understand that this translation is debatable, but I do not really understand the original correct meaning (in short terms). If you need, I can indicate all the parts where the term Pantocrator is used in the Old Testament.
In a second time, maybe, there are on this forum few specialists of the first centuries after Christ and maybe they are able to indicate me the texts of patristic (by example Athanase of Alexandria) which used this term of Pantocrator ? Thanks a lot.
You should also know that there is no word in the Hebrew that actually supports the Septuagint rendering of "Pantocrator".In the great majority of instances where the Greek words are used, the Hebrew is a proper name, "Shaddai."This is one name for deity in the Hebrew Bible alongside Yahweh.No doubt these names go back to a polytheistic time.The Greek translators did not want to use any proper names for God and certainly not two different ones.Yahweh becomes "The Lord".Of course, "Shaddai" could also be translated that way, but given the difference they wanted to render it differently.In Job, Shaddai is depicted as exercising
extensive control.The substitution of "Pantocrator" seemed to fit.Elsewhere the translators of the LXX employed diverse terms and strategies.
I got this from an article off og a Greek Orthodox website, but I could not find a cite to give. Sorry.
Peter A. Papoutsis
This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information intended only for the addressee named above. If you are not the addressee or the intended recipient of this message, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the addressee, then be notified hereby that any dissemination or duplication of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please telephone us immediately, return the message to the sender, and delete the original message from your system.
----- Original Message ---- From: olivier.koulytchizky <olivier.koulytchizky@...> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 8:30:05 AM Subject: [lxx] The meanings of the term : "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
First I want to apologize for my approximate English. I am a French student in medieval History of Art and I am conducting a research about the iconographic type (image) of the "Pantocrator" (Almighty) before iconoclasm and its meaning. Then I am specially interested by all textual reliable sources. After a short research on database like the BIOLA University (http://unbound. biola.edu/), I found that this term appears 51 times in the Old Testament. But I am not sure that the translation of the term "Pantocrator" which have been chosen for the Greeks is truly or genuinely in relation with the original meaning from the Hebrew Bible before she was translated into Greek for the LXX between the 3rd to 1st in Alexandria.
Is any one can give me pieces of information about this original meaning, in other words, is the translation "Pantocrator" is correct. If not, what
is the original meaning in the Jewish texts. I have read the different messages of this forum about this theme (Almighty) : I understand that this translation is debatable, but I do not really understand the original correct meaning (in short terms). If you need, I can indicate all the parts where the term Pantocrator is used in the Old Testament.
In a second time, maybe, there are on this forum few specialists of the first centuries after Christ and maybe they are able to indicate me the texts of patristic (by example Athanase of Alexandria) which used this term of Pantocrator ? Thanks a lot.
First I want to apologize for my approximate English. I am a French student in medieval History of Art and I am conducting a research about the iconographic type (image) of the "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
before iconoclasm and its meaning. Then I am specially interested by all textual reliable sources. After a short research on database like the BIOLA University (
http://unbound.biola.edu/), I found that this term appears 51 times in the Old Testament. But I am not sure that the translation of the term "Pantocrator" which have been chosen for the Greeks is truly or genuinely in relation with the
original meaning from the Hebrew Bible before she was translated into Greek for the LXX between the 3rd to 1st in Alexandria.
Is any one can give me pieces of information about this original meaning, in other words, is the translation "Pantocrator" is correct.
If not, what is the original meaning in the Jewish texts. I have read the different messages of this forum about this theme (Almighty) : I understand that this translation is debatable, but I do not really understand the original correct meaning (in short terms). If you need,
I can indicate all the parts where the term Pantocrator is used in the Old Testament.
In a second time, maybe, there are on this forum few specialists of the first centuries after Christ and maybe they are able to indicate
me the texts of patristic (by example Athanase of Alexandria) which used this term of Pantocrator ? Thanks a lot.
With best regards.
Olivier KOULYTCHIZKY (Université Toulouse II)
-- Dr Philippe Guillaume
Stelserstrasse 478A CH-7220 SCHIERS Tel. +81 330 34 37
Dear Olivier,
Your research sounds very interesting.
As others have mentioned, Greek Pantokrator and Latin Omniopotens, with
English Almighty, are all often a translation of the Hebrew Shadday, a word
of disputed meaning. It is perhaps related to the Akkadian shadu, mountain,
or to the Arabic root sh-d-d, "to be strong." I suggest taking a look at
the Koehler and Baumgartner Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament
(Brill, 2001). In the English edition, the pages for Shadday are volume 2,
pp 1420-1422. Bibliographic information is given there.
Regards,
Kevin P. Edgecomb
Berkeley, California
-----Original Message-----
From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
olivier.koulytchizky
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 6:30 AM
To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [lxx] The meanings of the term : "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
First I want to apologize for my approximate English. I am a French student
in medieval History of Art and I am conducting a research about the
iconographic type (image) of the "Pantocrator" (Almighty) before iconoclasm
and its meaning. Then I am specially interested by all textual reliable
sources. After a short research on database like the BIOLA University
(http://unbound.biola.edu/), I found that this term appears 51 times in the
Old Testament. But I am not sure that the translation of the term
"Pantocrator" which have been chosen for the Greeks is truly or genuinely in
relation with the original meaning from the Hebrew Bible before she was
translated into Greek for the LXX between the 3rd to 1st in Alexandria.
Is any one can give me pieces of information about this original meaning, in
other words, is the translation "Pantocrator" is correct.
If not, what is the original meaning in the Jewish texts. I have read the
different messages of this forum about this theme (Almighty) : I understand
that this translation is debatable, but I do not really understand the
original correct meaning (in short terms). If you need, I can indicate all
the parts where the term Pantocrator is used in the Old Testament.
In a second time, maybe, there are on this forum few specialists of the
first centuries after Christ and maybe they are able to indicate me the
texts of patristic (by example Athanase of Alexandria) which used this term
of Pantocrator ?
Thanks a lot.
With best regards.
Olivier KOULYTCHIZKY
(Université Toulouse II)
Yahoo! Groups Links
Bonjour,
C'est bien là l'objet de ma question. Est-ce que le terme de
"Tout-puissant" issu du grec "Pantokrator" est conforme dans sa
signfication symbolique au nom hébraïque El-Shaddai à patir duquel il
a été traduit dans la Septante. Il me semble comprendre qu'il y a un
glissement sémantique, voire peut-être un parti-pris dans l'adoption
du terme de "Pantokrator"... mais je ne suis pas spécialiste de ce
domaine ! Par contre on peut s'interroger dans le cas d'un choix
délibéré de ce terme de "Pantokrator" sur le pourquoi de ce choix. Y
a-t-il pu avoir une influence des attributs donnés aux dieux grecs
comme "Zeus Pantocrator", on sait que le Christ a hérité de certains
épithètes comme "Soter" ou "Philanthropos". Sous les Ptolémées lors de
la rédaction de la LXX, y a-t-il eu un Sarapis "Pantocrator" (le
Sarapis "Philanthropos" semble avoir existé) qui aurait pu marquer les
esprits et favoriser l'usage du terme lors de la traduction ?
Cordialement
Olivier Koulytchizky
--- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "philippe guillaume"
<Philippe.guillaume@...> wrote:
>
> Salut Olivier,
>
> J'aimerai bien savoir où tu trouves l'équivalent hébraique de
Pantocrator
> dans l'AT et s'il s'agit bien de El-Shaddai
>
> Salutations,
>
>
> On 5/12/07, olivier.koulytchizky <olivier.koulytchizky@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > First I want to apologize for my approximate English. I am a French
> > student in medieval History of Art and I am conducting a research
> > about the iconographic type (image) of the "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
> > before iconoclasm and its meaning. Then I am specially interested by
> > all textual reliable sources. After a short research on database like
> > the BIOLA University (http://unbound.biola.edu/), I found that this
> > term appears 51 times in the Old Testament. But I am not sure that the
> > translation of the term "Pantocrator" which have been
> > chosen for the Greeks is truly or genuinely in relation with the
> > original meaning from the Hebrew Bible before she was translated into
> > Greek for the LXX between the 3rd to 1st in Alexandria.
> >
> > Is any one can give me pieces of information about this original
> > meaning, in other words, is the translation "Pantocrator" is correct.
> > If not, what is the original meaning in the Jewish texts. I have read
> > the different messages of this forum about this theme (Almighty) : I
> > understand that this translation is debatable, but I do not really
> > understand the original correct meaning (in short terms). If you need,
> > I can indicate all the parts where the term Pantocrator is used in the
> > Old Testament.
> >
> > In a second time, maybe, there are on this forum few specialists of
> > the first centuries after Christ and maybe they are able to indicate
> > me the texts of patristic (by example Athanase of Alexandria) which
> > used this term of Pantocrator ?
> > Thanks a lot.
> >
> > With best regards.
> >
> > Olivier KOULYTCHIZKY
> > (Université Toulouse II)
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Dr Philippe Guillaume
> Stelserstrasse 478A
> CH-7220 SCHIERS
> Tel. +81 330 34 37
>
Dear all LXX members,
Thanks a lot for all informations about the difficult translation of
one of the name of God (Shaddai) into "Pantokrator" and about its
different possible meanings. I am very happy to meet few
"francophones". I have few questions about the polytheistic context
when the word "Pantokrator" is chosen in the LXX to translate
"Shaddai". Is any study has been done to define the possibility that
this word of "Pantokrator" came from epithet (attribute) of Greek or
egyptian gods ? I think at "Soter" or "philanthropos" which has been
used later for the Christ. We know a "Zeus Pantokrator" and a "Sarapis
philanthropos" but quid about a possible "Sarapis pantokrator" under
the reign of Ptolémées ?
Olivier Koulytchizky
For Shadday, see Knauf in Dictionary of deities and demons in the Bible / Karel van der Toorn ... [et al.], eds.. - 2nd, extensively rev. ed. - Leiden : Brill, 1999.
Dear Olivier, Your research sounds very interesting.
As others have mentioned, Greek Pantokrator and Latin Omniopotens, with English Almighty, are all often a translation of the Hebrew Shadday, a word
of disputed meaning. It is perhaps related to the Akkadian shadu, mountain, or to the Arabic root sh-d-d, "to be strong." I suggest taking a look at the Koehler and Baumgartner Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament
(Brill, 2001). In the English edition, the pages for Shadday are volume 2, pp 1420-1422. Bibliographic information is given there.
Regards, Kevin P. Edgecomb Berkeley, California
-----Original Message----- From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of olivier.koulytchizky Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 6:30 AM To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [lxx] The meanings of the term : "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
First I want to apologize for my approximate English. I am a French student in medieval History of Art and I am conducting a research about the iconographic type (image) of the "Pantocrator" (Almighty) before iconoclasm
and its meaning. Then I am specially interested by all textual reliable sources. After a short research on database like the BIOLA University (
http://unbound.biola.edu/), I found that this term appears 51 times in the Old Testament. But I am not sure that the translation of the term "Pantocrator" which have been chosen for the Greeks is truly or genuinely in
relation with the original meaning from the Hebrew Bible before she was translated into Greek for the LXX between the 3rd to 1st in Alexandria.
Is any one can give me pieces of information about this original meaning, in
other words, is the translation "Pantocrator" is correct. If not, what is the original meaning in the Jewish texts. I have read the different messages of this forum about this theme (Almighty) : I understand
that this translation is debatable, but I do not really understand the original correct meaning (in short terms). If you need, I can indicate all the parts where the term Pantocrator is used in the Old Testament.
In a second time, maybe, there are on this forum few specialists of the first centuries after Christ and maybe they are able to indicate me the texts of patristic (by example Athanase of Alexandria) which used this term
of Pantocrator ? Thanks a lot.
With best regards.
Olivier KOULYTCHIZKY (Université Toulouse II)
Yahoo! Groups Links
-- Dr Philippe Guillaume
Stelserstrasse 478A CH-7220 SCHIERS Tel. +81 330 34 37
I want to correct an error i did : the occurences of the term
PANTOKRATWR in the LXX seems occur, at least, 170 times (thanks to
Arne) and not 51 times as i said. Thanks again to all people who
helped me to understand the meanings of this term and its origin.
Olivier Koulytchizky
Master History of Art
Université Toulouse II
--- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "philippe guillaume"
<Philippe.guillaume@...> wrote:
>
> For Shadday, see Knauf in Dictionary of deities and demons in the
> Bible / Karel van der Toorn ... [et al.], eds.. - 2nd, extensively rev.
> ed. - Leiden : Brill, 1999.
> In any case, nothing to do with Pantokrator.
>
>
> On 5/12/07, Kevin P. Edgecomb <kevin@...> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Olivier,
> > Your research sounds very interesting.
> >
> > As others have mentioned, Greek Pantokrator and Latin Omniopotens,
with
> > English Almighty, are all often a translation of the Hebrew Shadday, a
> > word
> > of disputed meaning. It is perhaps related to the Akkadian shadu,
> > mountain,
> > or to the Arabic root sh-d-d, "to be strong." I suggest taking a
look at
> > the Koehler and Baumgartner Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old
> > Testament
> > (Brill, 2001). In the English edition, the pages for Shadday are
volume 2,
> > pp 1420-1422. Bibliographic information is given there.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Kevin P. Edgecomb
> > Berkeley, California
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com <lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
> > lxx@yahoogroups.com <lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of
> > olivier.koulytchizky
> > Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 6:30 AM
> > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com <lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [lxx] The meanings of the term : "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
> >
> > First I want to apologize for my approximate English. I am a French
> > student
> > in medieval History of Art and I am conducting a research about the
> > iconographic type (image) of the "Pantocrator" (Almighty) before
> > iconoclasm
> > and its meaning. Then I am specially interested by all textual
reliable
> > sources. After a short research on database like the BIOLA University
> > (http://unbound.biola.edu/), I found that this term appears 51
times in
> > the
> > Old Testament. But I am not sure that the translation of the term
> > "Pantocrator" which have been chosen for the Greeks is truly or
genuinely
> > in
> > relation with the original meaning from the Hebrew Bible before
she was
> > translated into Greek for the LXX between the 3rd to 1st in
Alexandria.
> >
> > Is any one can give me pieces of information about this original
meaning,
> > in
> > other words, is the translation "Pantocrator" is correct.
> > If not, what is the original meaning in the Jewish texts. I have
read the
> > different messages of this forum about this theme (Almighty) : I
> > understand
> > that this translation is debatable, but I do not really understand the
> > original correct meaning (in short terms). If you need, I can
indicate all
> > the parts where the term Pantocrator is used in the Old Testament.
> >
> > In a second time, maybe, there are on this forum few specialists
of the
> > first centuries after Christ and maybe they are able to indicate
me the
> > texts of patristic (by example Athanase of Alexandria) which used this
> > term
> > of Pantocrator ?
> > Thanks a lot.
> >
> > With best regards.
> >
> > Olivier KOULYTCHIZKY
> > (Université Toulouse II)
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Dr Philippe Guillaume
> Stelserstrasse 478A
> CH-7220 SCHIERS
> Tel. +81 330 34 37
>
I have two quick question. I hit a snag with the footnote to Esaias Ch 20:3 in Rahlfs Septuaginta. The note reads: "TRIA ETI ESTAI EIS + KAI NOESOUSIN. I translated TRAI ETI ESTAI EIS as: "There will be three years for..." the KAI NOESOUSIN I am having a problem with. I want to translate this as: "and discerning" or "and understanding." This may be my modern Greek creeping in or a complete lack of understaning of the word and of the whole phrase for that matter. SO, any help would be appriciated. Thanks.
Peter A. Papoutsis
This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information intended only for the addressee named above. If you are not the addressee or the intended recipient of this message, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the addressee, then be notified hereby that any dissemination or duplication of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please telephone us immediately, return the message to the sender, and delete the original message from your system.
--- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Guys:
>
> I have two quick question. I hit a snag with the footnote to Esaias
Ch 20:3 in Rahlfs Septuaginta. The note reads: "TRIA ETI ESTAI EIS +
KAI NOESOUSIN.
What transcription are you following? If that 'E' is really an Eta,
then the B-greek transcription (which I thought would be preferred
here) would be NOHSOUSIN, which is future 3rd person from NOEW, and
fits the context well.
I would check the note in Rahlfs myself, but as I write this, I do not
have ready access to my dead-tree copy.
BTW: the Perseus Morphologicl tool confirms that NOESOUSIN does not
exist, but NOHSOUSIN is as described above (also subj. etc., but this
does not fit as well).
I translated TRAI ETI ESTAI EIS as: "There will be three years
for..." the KAI NOESOUSIN I am having a problem with. I want to
translate this as: "and discerning" or "and understanding." This may
be my modern Greek creeping in or a complete lack of understaning of
the word and of the whole phrase for that matter. SO, any help would
be appriciated. Thanks.
>
> Peter A. Papoutsis
>
> This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information
intended only for the addressee named above. If you are not the
addressee or the intended recipient of this message, or the employee
or agent responsible for delivering the message to the addressee, then
be notified hereby that any dissemination or duplication of this
e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error,
please telephone us immediately, return the message to the sender, and
delete the original message from your system.
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________\
____
> Need Mail bonding?
> Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
> http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091
>
Ok so I was on the right track, but where does "KAI NOHSOUSIN" fit in as an addition from Codex Sinaiticus? Is it an addition that occurs at the very end of verse three (3) or after the phrase it was next too. Rahlfs' not is not that clear to me. Usually I'm pretty good at understanding them but I get stumped every once in a while. Any help would be appriciated.
Peter A. Papoutsis
This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information intended only for the addressee named above. If you are not the addressee or the intended recipient of this message, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the addressee, then be notified hereby that any dissemination or duplication of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please telephone us immediately, return the message to the sender, and delete the original message from your system.
----- Original Message ---- From: Matthew Johnson <mej1960@...> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 10:59:27 PM Subject: [lxx] Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs
--- In lxx@yahoogroups. com, Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@ ...> wrote: > > Hello Guys: > > I have two quick question. I hit a snag with the footnote to Esaias Ch 20:3 in Rahlfs Septuaginta. The note reads: "TRIA ETI ESTAI EIS + KAI NOESOUSIN.
What transcription are you following? If that 'E' is really an Eta, then the B-greek transcription (which I thought would be preferred here) would be NOHSOUSIN, which is future 3rd person from NOEW, and fits the context well.
I would check the note in Rahlfs myself, but as I write this, I do not have ready access to my dead-tree copy.
BTW: the Perseus Morphologicl tool confirms that NOESOUSIN does not exist, but NOHSOUSIN is as described above (also subj. etc., but this does not fit as well).
I translated TRAI ETI ESTAI EIS as: "There will be three years for..." the KAI NOESOUSIN
I am having a problem with. I want to translate this as: "and discerning" or "and understanding. " This may be my modern Greek creeping in or a complete lack of understaning of the word and of the whole phrase for that matter. SO, any help would be appriciated. Thanks. > > Peter A. Papoutsis > > This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information intended only for the addressee named above. If you are not the addressee or the intended recipient of this message, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the addressee, then be notified hereby that any dissemination or duplication of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please telephone us immediately, return the message to the sender, and delete the original message from your system. > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________
_ > Need Mail bonding? > Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. > http://answers. yahoo.com/ dir/?link= list&sid= 396546091 >
if KAI NOHSOUSIN is an addition to the end of verse 3 I would translate is as:
"...there will be three years for signs and portents to the Egyptians and Ethiopians (and they will believe)".
Let me know what you think
Peter A. Papoutsis
This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information intended only for the addressee named above. If you are not the addressee or the intended recipient of this message, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the addressee, then be notified hereby that any dissemination or duplication of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please telephone us immediately, return the message to the sender, and delete the original message from your system.
----- Original Message ---- From: Matthew Johnson <mej1960@...> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 10:59:27 PM Subject: [lxx] Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs
--- In lxx@yahoogroups. com, Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@ ...> wrote: > > Hello Guys: > > I have two quick question. I hit a snag with the footnote to Esaias Ch 20:3 in Rahlfs Septuaginta. The note reads: "TRIA ETI ESTAI EIS + KAI NOESOUSIN.
What transcription are you following? If that 'E' is really an Eta, then the B-greek transcription (which I thought would be preferred here) would be NOHSOUSIN, which is future 3rd person from NOEW, and fits the context well.
I would check the note in Rahlfs myself, but as I write this, I do not have ready access to my dead-tree copy.
BTW: the Perseus Morphologicl tool confirms that NOESOUSIN does not exist, but NOHSOUSIN is as described above (also subj. etc., but this does not fit as well).
I translated TRAI ETI ESTAI EIS as: "There will be three years for..." the KAI NOESOUSIN
I am having a problem with. I want to translate this as: "and discerning" or "and understanding. " This may be my modern Greek creeping in or a complete lack of understaning of the word and of the whole phrase for that matter. SO, any help would be appriciated. Thanks. > > Peter A. Papoutsis > > This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information intended only for the addressee named above. If you are not the addressee or the intended recipient of this message, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the addressee, then be notified hereby that any dissemination or duplication of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please telephone us immediately, return the message to the sender, and delete the original message from your system. > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________
_ > Need Mail bonding? > Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. > http://answers. yahoo.com/ dir/?link= list&sid= 396546091 >
--- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@...> wrote:
>
> Ok so I was on the right track, but where does "KAI NOHSOUSIN" fit
in as an addition from Codex Sinaiticus? Is it an addition that occurs
at the very end of verse three (3) or after the phrase it was next
too. Rahlfs' not is not that clear to me.
That is why I have long wished for an explanation of symbols for
Rahlf's of comparable clarity to that for NA26 and UBS4;)
But that is how I understand Rahlf's 'fin.'; an addition that occurs
at the very end of verse three, so that the whole phrase reads:
ESTAI SHMEIA KAI TERATA TOIS AIGUPTIOIS KAI AIQIOYIN KAI NOHSOUSIN,
i.e.,
they [the years] shall be signs and wonders to the Egyptians and they
shall understand.
Now this reading sounds forced in a couple of ways: why, for example,
is it the years that are 'signs and wonders'? That is certainly not
the normal application of 'signs and wonders'. But since this is an
addition, so we need not expect perfect compatibility with the
presumed Vorlage, nor with the LXX translator's style.
> Usually I'm pretty good at understanding them but I get stumped
every once in a while. Any help would be appreciated.
I hope you do find this helpful.
Finally, I notice in another response, you want to translate NOEW as
'believe'. I am not sure why you want to do this; PISTEUW is the
normal verb for this, as in Job 9:16 or Psa 26:13.
[snip]
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