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#2233 From: Ivan KArel <ivankarel@...>
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 6:04 am
Subject: Re: LXX version
ivankarel@...
Send Email Send Email
 
All. Thks for the explanation.
 
Concerning Pat & Jim email, coud you give me some example ?
 
Thks
Ivan Karel

Pat and Jim Ellis <jim@...> wrote:
And there's always the possibility they were paraphrasing from memory and not quoting from a certain version.

Bill Ross <BillRoss@norisksoftware.com> wrote:
No one knows.
 
Bill Ross
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Ivan KArel
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 1:03 AM
Subject: [lxx] LXX version

Dear All.
 
Any knows  what's LXX version that Paul,Matthew and another NT writer quoted??
 
Thanks
 
Ivan Karel



8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.

#2234 From: Pat and Jim Ellis <jim@...>
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 1:59 pm
Subject: Re: LXX version
patandjimellis
Send Email Send Email
 


Ivan KArel <ivankarel@...> wrote:
All. Thks for the explanation.
 
Concerning Pat & Jim email, coud you give me some example ?
 
Thks
Ivan Karel
----------------------
No, I can't give any specific example. What I was thinking  of was that when a person would be writing or speaking he might just quote a verse without having a document before him to copy from. As he would quote it, it might not be exactly as written or he might have just paraphrased it as he spoke or wrote. For example, I have paraphrased the words of Jesus when I have said "...unless a person is born again..." instead of "...except a man be born again..." as it reads in the KJV. Also, when ministering in a hospital and anointing a person with oil, I some times quote james 5:13-18. In the KJV it says "...The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much..." When I quote that I usually just say, "The effective fervent prayer of a righteous person avails much..." I am not deliberately misquoting or twisting the Scriptures, I am just paraphrasing. I think most of us have done that and I am just assuming that in the first century they probably did the same thing.
James Ellis
http://www.geocities.com/patandjimellis/index.html






#2235 From: "Harold P. Scanlin" <harold.scanlin@...>
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 3:58 pm
Subject: Re: LXX version
harold37s
Send Email Send Email
 
Bill Ross wrote:

No one knows.

I agree. Listers may find some further bibliographic leads in my brief survey found at <http://www.ubs-translations.org/cms/index.php?id=41,0,0,1,0,0> "The Text of the Septuagint in the New Testament."

Harold P. Scanlin

 
Bill Ross




 
----- Original Message -----
From: Ivan KArel
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 1:03 AM
Subject: [lxx] LXX version

Dear All.
 
Any knows  what's LXX version that Paul,Matthew and another NT writer quoted??
 
Thanks
 
Ivan Karel

Attachment: vcard [not shown]

#2236 From: Ivan KArel <ivankarel@...>
Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 12:28 pm
Subject: Re: LXX version
ivankarel@...
Send Email Send Email
 
Dear All.Many thks.
 
I appreciate your efforts. To Harold..thks for the web.
 
Regards
 
Ivan Karel

"Harold P. Scanlin" <harold.scanlin@...> wrote:
Bill Ross wrote:
No one knows.

I agree. Listers may find some further bibliographic leads in my brief survey found at <http://www.ubs-translations.org/cms/index.php?id=41,0,0,1,0,0> "The Text of the Septuagint in the New Testament."

Harold P. Scanlin

 
Bill Ross




 
----- Original Message -----
From: Ivan KArel
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 1:03 AM
Subject: [lxx] LXX version

Dear All.
 
Any knows  what's LXX version that Paul,Matthew and another NT writer quoted??
 
Thanks
 
Ivan Karel

begin:vcard
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n:Scanlin;Harold
adr;dom:;;41 Waldheim Park;Allentown;PA;18103
email;internet:harold.scanlin@...
tel;home:610-791-9146
x-mozilla-html:TRUE
version:2.1
end:vcard



Get your own web address.
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#2237 From: "kalvesmaki" <kalvesmaki@...>
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2007 4:35 am
Subject: Upcoming Septuagint conference
Kalvesmaki
Send Email Send Email
 
Friends,

I am sending a brief notice here, especially for list members in
Europe, regarding a conference to be held 9 May 2007.

SEPTUAGINTA: Libri sacri della diaspora giudaica e dei cristiani. VII
Giornata di studio: «Il 'Cronista', Esdra e Neemia: la dialettica fra
regalità e sacerdozio» will be hosted by Dipartmento di science
religiose, Istituto di glottologia, at Università Cattolica del Sacro
Cruore in Milan.

For more information download the flyer, which I've posted on my LXX
website:
http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/Septuaginta.pdf

Best wishes,

jk
Joel Kalvesmaki
LXX discussion list co-moderator

#2238 From: pasi pohjala <pkpohjala@...>
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:37 pm
Subject: concerning APOSKOPEUO in LXX of Hab 2:1, the pesher, and Honi the digging (SKAPTO) of cavity
pkpohjala
Send Email Send Email
 
Dear Researchers of Bible,
 
have many readers been pondering the tale of Honi the Circle Drawer ascribed to Habakkuk in Babylonian Talmud Taanith 23, this seems to lead ascribing APOSKOPEUO to Honi in LXX Hab 2:1, SKAPTO (digging, in the tale of Honi) and SKAFE (in Habakkuk as the cook in Bel and Draco, addition to Daniel). Perhaps there is well known word play describing Habakkuk in Ancient times!
 
Best Wishes, Pasi Pohjala London


Der neue Internet Explorer 7 in deutscher Ausführung ist da !

#2239 From: "Bryan Cox" <bccox99@...>
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:24 pm
Subject: NEW! Greek Geeks YahooGroups
b_coxus
Send Email Send Email
 
I just wanted to announce the creation of a new Yahoo Group
called "Greek Geeks":

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/greek_geeks/

The scope of the new Greek Geeks forum is intended to both expand upon
and complement the B-Greek list as well as the textualcriticism list.
What better thing for Greek Geeks than to have another resource??  One
of our plans is to have a periodic "project" to keep people interested
and involved.  The first planned "project" is to analyze and translate
online images of Codex Bezae, working at an initial pace of one new
chapter every other week.  Feel free to begin any "project" you think
would be interesting, such as working on the grammar, palaeography, or
text critical "problems" of a portion of the LXX!

Please drop by, sign up, and participate!

Bryan Cox
Plano, Tx

#2240 From: dmitri zagvazdin <zagvazdin@...>
Date: Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:11 pm
Subject: question
zagvazdin
Send Email Send Email
 
Brenton translates GENESIS 14:13 as "And one of  them that had been rescued came and told Abram the Hebrew..." And yet the Greek word he is translating as "Hebrew" is peratn (my transliteration without a Greek font). What does this word mean? Surely not "Hebrew." The closest I could find in a Greek dictionary was "on the opposite side, of the west as opposed to the east." Brenton's footnote says "Greek: passer." What is he saying?
 
 


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#2241 From: "philippe guillaume" <Philippe.guillaume@...>
Date: Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:27 pm
Subject: Re: question
Philippe.guillaume@...
Send Email Send Email
 
The Hebrew word for "Hebrew" comes from root Ayin - Beth - Resh meaning 'to cross, to pass, to pull'. Hence peratn is a literal translation of Hebrew.

On 4/28/07, dmitri zagvazdin <zagvazdin@...> wrote:

Brenton translates GENESIS 14:13 as "And one of  them that had been rescued came and told Abram the Hebrew..." And yet the Greek word he is translating as "Hebrew" is peratn (my transliteration without a Greek font). What does this word mean? Surely not "Hebrew." The closest I could find in a Greek dictionary was "on the opposite side, of the west as opposed to the east." Brenton's footnote says "Greek: passer." What is he saying?
 
 


Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos.




--
Dr Philippe Guillaume
Stelserstrasse 478A
CH-7220 SCHIERS
Tel. +81 330 34 37

#2242 From: "Wyrick, Jed" <jwyrick@...>
Date: Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:48 pm
Subject: Re: question
jd_wyrick
Send Email Send Email
 
Dear Dmitri,

To add to what Phillippe says, the word peratêi in the LXX/OG is an attempt to translate the word `ivri.  Normally this word is translated as an ethnic descriptor (i.e. ‘Hebrew’).  However, the LXX/OG instead seeks to understand the word (I’d note, applied to Abraham only here, and only translated by the LXX/OG as “peratos” here, as far as I can tell) using its triliteral root ayin-waw-resh, a root which literally means ‘to cross’--Avraham ha-`ivri is thus glossed as Abram toi peratêi and the sentence Paragenomenos de tôn anasôthentôn tis apêngeillên tôi Abram toi peratêi.  ‘Happening by, one of those who had returned spoke to Abraham, the wanderer.’  One may speculate on the reasons why this translation was chosen: was there some problem with classifying Abraham as a Hebrew?  After all, he is the ancestor of Ishmaelites, Israelites, Edomites, Midianites, Moabites, etc.

JW

--
Jed Wyrick
Department of Religious Studies
Coordinator, Modern Jewish and Israel Studies
California State University, Chico
Chico, CA 95929-0740
530-898-6379
jwyrick@...





From: dmitri zagvazdin <zagvazdin@...>
Reply-To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 11:11:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [lxx] question

 
 
 

Brenton translates GENESIS 14:13 as "And one of  them that had been rescued came and told Abram the Hebrew..." And yet the Greek word he is translating as "Hebrew" is peratn (my transliteration without a Greek font). What does this word mean? Surely not "Hebrew." The closest I could find in a Greek dictionary was "on the opposite side, of the west as opposed to the east." Brenton's footnote says "Greek: passer." What is he saying?
  
 
  
 
  

Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
 Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos. <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48245/*http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html;_ylc=X3oDMTE1YW1jcXJ2BF9TAzk3MTA3MDc2BHNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDbmV3LWNhcnM->
 
    

#2243 From: "Tony Costa" <tmcos@...>
Date: Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:48 pm
Subject: RE: question
ixthus888
Send Email Send Email
 

The Greek word PERATH (from PERATHS) carries the meaning of “migrant” and “wanderer” which is what Brenton’s footnote is alluding to. This may correspond to the possible meaning of the word “Hebrew” in the MT. Abram (later Abraham) was told to leave Ur of the Chaldees (Mesopotamia) and he moved westward towards Canaan (Gen. 12:1ff). Thus the emphasis on the west side of the east (Mesopotamia). Some see this term as having reference to Abraham’s forefather Eber (Gen. 10:21). Best wishes,

 

Tony Costa, PhD (cand)

 


From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dmitri zagvazdin
Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 2:11 PM
To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [lxx] question

 

Brenton translates GENESIS 14:13 as "And one of  them that had been rescued came and told Abram the Hebrew..." And yet the Greek word he is translating as "Hebrew" is peratn (my transliteration without a Greek font). What does this word mean? Surely not "Hebrew." The closest I could find in a Greek dictionary was "on the opposite side, of the west as opposed to the east." Brenton's footnote says "Greek: passer." What is he saying?

 

 

 


Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos.


#2244 From: "andrew fincke" <finckea@...>
Date: Tue May 1, 2007 2:25 pm
Subject: RE: question
finckean
Send Email Send Email
 
Dear Dmitri,
Liddell-Scott, 1365 bottom is unambiguous as to peraths.  It's a wanderer
that Philo explains as Ebraios.  Here's the place from Philo, De migratione
Abrahami, cited from BibleWorks 7:
to. auvcei/n evpi. tw/| ge,noj ei=nai ~Ebrai,wn( oi-j e;qoj avpo. tw/n
aivsqhtw/n evpi. ta. nohta. metani,stasqai pera,thj ga.r o` ~Ebrai/oj
e`rmhneu,etai(
It basically says:
"To boast to be of the race of the Hebrews, whose natural instinct was to
move around, since peraths means Ebraios (Hebrew)".
Andrew Fincke


>From: "Tony Costa" <tmcos@...>
>Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
>To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: RE: [lxx] question
>Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 14:48:28 -0400
>
>The Greek word PERATH (from PERATHS) carries the meaning of "migrant" and
>"wanderer" which is what Brenton's footnote is alluding to. This may
>correspond to the possible meaning of the word "Hebrew" in the MT. Abram
>(later Abraham) was told to leave Ur of the Chaldees (Mesopotamia) and he
>moved westward towards Canaan (Gen. 12:1ff). Thus the emphasis on the west
>side of the east (Mesopotamia). Some see this term as having reference to
>Abraham's forefather Eber (Gen. 10:21). Best wishes,
>
>
>
>Tony Costa, PhD (cand)
>
>
>
>   _____
>
>From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dmitri
>zagvazdin
>Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 2:11 PM
>To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [lxx] question
>
>
>
>Brenton translates GENESIS 14:13 as "And one of  them that had been rescued
>came and told Abram the Hebrew..." And yet the Greek word he is translating
>as "Hebrew" is peratn (my transliteration without a Greek font). What does
>this word mean? Surely not "Hebrew." The closest I could find in a Greek
>dictionary was "on the opposite side, of the west as opposed to the east."
>Brenton's footnote says "Greek: passer." What is he saying?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   _____
>
>Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
>Check out new
><http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48245/*http:/autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html;_ylc=
>X3oDMTE1YW1jcXJ2BF9TAzk3MTA3MDc2BHNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDbmV3LWNhcnM->  cars
>at Yahoo! Autos.
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office
Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/

#2245 From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
Date: Wed May 2, 2007 12:23 am
Subject: Re: question
kraftra
Send Email Send Email
 
Interesting. I received this message, but not the earlier two. Wonder why?

In any event, the last part of Andrew's quote from Philo should read "the word
'Hebrew' is
translated [or means, in Greek] 'one who passes by' (peraths)." This is but one
of scores of
passages in which Philo translates Hebrew terms for his readers. For more, see
L. Grabbe,
Etymology in Early Jewish Interpretation: the Hebrew Names in Philo, Brown
Judaic Series 115
(Atlanta: Scholars Press 1988).

Bob Kraft, UPenn

> Dear Dmitri,
> Liddell-Scott, 1365 bottom is unambiguous as to peraths.  It's a wanderer
> that Philo explains as Ebraios.  Here's the place from Philo, De migratione
> Abrahami, cited from BibleWorks 7:
> to. auvcei/n evpi. tw/| ge,noj ei=nai ~Ebrai,wn( oi-j e;qoj avpo. tw/n
> aivsqhtw/n evpi. ta. nohta. metani,stasqai pera,thj ga.r o` ~Ebrai/oj
> e`rmhneu,etai(
> It basically says:
> "To boast to be of the race of the Hebrews, whose natural instinct was to
> move around, since peraths means Ebraios (Hebrew)".
> Andrew Fincke
>
>
> >From: "Tony Costa" <tmcos@...>
> >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
> >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
> >Subject: RE: [lxx] question
> >Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 14:48:28 -0400
> >
> >The Greek word PERATH (from PERATHS) carries the meaning of "migrant" and
> >"wanderer" which is what Brenton's footnote is alluding to. This may
> >correspond to the possible meaning of the word "Hebrew" in the MT. Abram
> >(later Abraham) was told to leave Ur of the Chaldees (Mesopotamia) and he
> >moved westward towards Canaan (Gen. 12:1ff). Thus the emphasis on the west
> >side of the east (Mesopotamia). Some see this term as having reference to
> >Abraham's forefather Eber (Gen. 10:21). Best wishes,
> >
> >
> >
> >Tony Costa, PhD (cand)
> >
> >
> >
> >   _____
> >
> >From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dmitri
> >zagvazdin
> >Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 2:11 PM
> >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [lxx] question
> >
> >
> >
> >Brenton translates GENESIS 14:13 as "And one of  them that had been rescued
> >came and told Abram the Hebrew..." And yet the Greek word he is translating
> >as "Hebrew" is peratn (my transliteration without a Greek font). What does
> >this word mean? Surely not "Hebrew." The closest I could find in a Greek
> >dictionary was "on the opposite side, of the west as opposed to the east."
> >Brenton's footnote says "Greek: passer." What is he saying?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >   _____
> >
> >Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
> >Check out new
> ><http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48245/*http:/autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html;_ylc=
> >X3oDMTE1YW1jcXJ2BF9TAzk3MTA3MDc2BHNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDbmV3LWNhcnM->  cars
> >at Yahoo! Autos.
> >
> >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office
> Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>



--
Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
kraft@...
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html

#2246 From: "Robert Kraft" <kraft@...>
Date: Fri May 4, 2007 10:14 am
Subject: Re: question
kraftra
Send Email Send Email
 

Interesting. I received this message, but not the earlier two. Wonder why?

In any event, the last part of Andrew's quote from Philo should read "the word 'Hebrew' is
translated [or means, in Greek] 'one who passes by' (peraths)." This is but one of scores of
passages in which Philo translates Hebrew terms for his readers. For more, see L. Grabbe,
Etymology in Early Jewish Interpretation: the Hebrew Names in Philo, Brown Judaic Series 115
(Atlanta: Scholars Press 1988).

Bob Kraft, UPenn

> Dear Dmitri,
> Liddell-Scott, 1365 bottom is unambiguous as to peraths. It's a wanderer
> that Philo explains as Ebraios. Here's the place from Philo, De migratione
> Abrahami, cited from BibleWorks 7:
> to. auvcei/n evpi. tw/| ge,noj ei=nai ~Ebrai,wn( oi-j e;qoj avpo. tw/n
> aivsqhtw/n evpi. ta. nohta. metani,stasqai pera,thj ga.r o` ~Ebrai/oj
> e`rmhneu,etai(
> It basically says:
> "To boast to be of the race of the Hebrews, whose natural instinct was to
> move around, since peraths means Ebraios (Hebrew)".
> Andrew Fincke
>
>
> >From: "Tony Costa" <tmcos@rogers.com>
> >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
> >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
> >Subject: RE: [lxx] question
> >Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 14:48:28 -0400
> >
> >The Greek word PERATH (from PERATHS) carries the meaning of "migrant" and
> >"wanderer" which is what Brenton's footnote is alluding to. This may
> >correspond to the possible meaning of the word "Hebrew" in the MT. Abram
> >(later Abraham) was told to leave Ur of the Chaldees (Mesopotamia) and he
> >moved westward towards Canaan (Gen. 12:1ff). Thus the emphasis on the west
> >side of the east (Mesopotamia). Some see this term as having reference to
> >Abraham's forefather Eber (Gen. 10:21). Best wishes,
> >
> >
> >
> >Tony Costa, PhD (cand)
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> >From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dmitri
> >zagvazdin
> >Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 2:11 PM
> >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [lxx] question
> >
> >
> >
> >Brenton translates GENESIS 14:13 as "And one of them that had been rescued
> >came and told Abram the Hebrew..." And yet the Greek word he is translating
> >as "Hebrew" is peratn (my transliteration without a Greek font). What does
> >this word mean? Surely not "Hebrew." The closest I could find in a Greek
> >dictionary was "on the opposite side, of the west as opposed to the east."
> >Brenton's footnote says "Greek: passer." What is he saying?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> >Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
> >Check out new
> ><http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48245/*http:/autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html;_ylc=
> >X3oDMTE1YW1jcXJ2BF9TAzk3MTA3MDc2BHNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDbmV3LWNhcnM-> cars
> >at Yahoo! Autos.
> >
> >
> >
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office
> Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
kraft@....upenn.edu
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html


#2247 From: pasi pohjala <pkpohjala@...>
Date: Fri May 11, 2007 4:07 pm
Subject: The LXX and MT or Proverbs 23 and 30- the PELEIOI eyes and Eye of Falcon Horus
pkpohjala
Send Email Send Email
 
Dear Researchers of LXX,
 
currently I have been researching the PELEIOI qualifying eyes in the LXX Proverbs 23:29, the PELEIOI being rare word in LXX and translating HKLLWT that has only parallel in Masoretic text there in Judah blessing of Gen 49:12 where it qualifies his eyes, too- and the Targums ascribe to him glass- eyes (Neophyti and Pseudo Jonathan)! But PELEIOI recalls doves, and much is here iProv 23 and 30 written of AETOS, the eagle or Falcon- obviously Eye of the Falcon Horus is known as polished magical stone, too. Have some readers been thinking of such comparisons possibly.
 
Best Wishes, Pasi K. Pohjala London


Heute schon einen Blick in die Zukunft von E-Mails wagen? Versuchen Sie´s mit dem neuen Yahoo! Mail.

#2248 From: "andrew fincke" <finckea@...>
Date: Fri May 11, 2007 5:20 pm
Subject: RE: The LXX and MT or Proverbs 23 and 30- the PELEIOI eyes and Eye of Falcon Horus
finckean
Send Email Send Email
 
Dear Pasi,
As Bob, I'm sure, will agree, PELEOI is an error for TELEOI "complete,
mature, full-grown", since pe and tau are almost indistinguishable in uncial
script.  What does TELEOI have to do with chaklilut?  CHAKLILUT is itself an
error for HAKLILUT, since chet and he are almost indistinguoshable in
Hebrew.  KALIL means "complete" in Hebrew.  See Judges 20:40: KALIL HA-'IR =
H SUNTELEIA HS POLEWS.  But what does this letter-switch (the one in Greek)
have to do with that letter-switch (the one in Hebrew)?  Chet is two
uprights with a horizontal across the top.  So is pe.  When you can't
translate a word - and who can translate a monstrosity like CHAKLILUT? - you
strip off the problem letter (chet) and turn it into its Greek look-alike.
Andrew Fincke


>From: pasi pohjala <pkpohjala@...>
>Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
>To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [lxx] The LXX and MT or Proverbs 23 and 30- the PELEIOI eyes and
>Eye of Falcon Horus
>Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 18:07:57 +0200 (CEST)
>
>Dear Researchers of LXX,
>
>   currently I have been researching the PELEIOI qualifying eyes in the LXX
>Proverbs 23:29, the PELEIOI being rare word in LXX and translating HKLLWT
>that has only parallel in Masoretic text there in Judah blessing of Gen
>49:12 where it qualifies his eyes, too- and the Targums ascribe to him
>glass- eyes (Neophyti and Pseudo Jonathan)! But PELEIOI recalls doves, and
>much is here iProv 23 and 30 written of AETOS, the eagle or Falcon-
>obviously Eye of the Falcon Horus is known as polished magical stone, too.
>Have some readers been thinking of such comparisons possibly.
>
>   Best Wishes, Pasi K. Pohjala London
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Heute schon einen Blick in die Zukunft von E-Mails wagen? Versuchen Sie�s
>mit dem  neuen Yahoo! Mail.


><< CHAPTERJUDAH1005.doc >>

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#2249 From: "olivier.koulytchizky" <olivier.koulytchizky@...>
Date: Sat May 12, 2007 1:30 pm
Subject: The meanings of the term : "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
olivier.koul...
Send Email Send Email
 
First I want to apologize for my approximate English. I am a French
student in medieval History of Art and I am conducting a research
about the iconographic type (image) of the "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
before iconoclasm and its meaning. Then I am specially interested by
all textual reliable sources. After a short research on database like
the BIOLA University (http://unbound.biola.edu/), I found that this
term appears 51 times in the Old Testament. But I am not sure that the
translation of the term "Pantocrator" which have been
chosen for the Greeks is truly or genuinely in relation with the
original meaning from the Hebrew Bible before she was translated into
Greek for the LXX between the  3rd to 1st in Alexandria.

Is any one can give me pieces of information about this original
meaning, in other words, is the translation "Pantocrator" is correct.
If not, what is the original meaning in the Jewish texts. I have read
the different messages of this forum about this theme (Almighty) : I
understand that this translation is debatable, but I do not really
understand the original correct meaning (in short terms). If you need,
I can indicate all the parts where the term Pantocrator is used in the
Old Testament.

In a second time, maybe, there are on this forum few specialists of
the first centuries after Christ and maybe they are able to indicate
me the texts of patristic (by example Athanase of Alexandria) which
used this term of Pantocrator ?
Thanks a lot.

With best regards.

Olivier KOULYTCHIZKY
(Université Toulouse II)

#2250 From: Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@...>
Date: Sat May 12, 2007 2:31 pm
Subject: Re: The meanings of the term : "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
papoutsis1
Send Email Send Email
 
From Orthopedia (i.e. Orthodox Wikipedia):
 
Pantokrator was used to translate the Hebrew title El Shaddai. Early Christians ascribed this title to Jesus of Nazareth.
 

The most common translation of Pantocrator is "Almighty" or "All-powerful." In this understanding, Pantokrator is a compound word formed from the Greek words for "all" and the noun "strength" (¦Ê¦Ñ¦Á¦Ó¦Ï¦ø). This is often understood in terms of potential power; i.e., able to do anything, or omnipotentent.

 

Another, less literal translation is "Ruler of All" or "Sustainer of the World." In this understanding, Pantokrator is a compound word formed from the Greek for "all" and the verb meaning "To accomplish something" or "to sustain something" (¦Ê¦Ñ¦Á¦Ó¦Å¦Ø). This translation speaks more to God's actual power; i.e., God does everything (as opposed to God can do everything).


The Pantokrator, largely a Byzantine or Eastern Orthodox theological issue is by that name largely unknown to Roman Catholicism and most Protestants. Pantokrator is roughly synonymous with the western concept of omnipotence. But omnipotence is power in stasis while the power of the Pantokrator is dynamic.

Uses in the New Testament

In quoting the Septuagint, Paul uses Pantokrator once (2 Cor. 6:18). Aside from that one occurrence, the author of the Book of Revelation is the only New Testament author to use the word Pantokrator. The author of Revelation uses the word nine times,[1] and while the references to God and Christ in Revelation are at times interchangeable, Pantokrator appears to be reserved for God alone.

___________________________________________________________________________

 

I don't know if this helps, but I hope it does.


 
Peter A. Papoutsis
 
This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information intended only for the addressee named above. If you are not the addressee or the intended recipient of this message, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the addressee, then be notified hereby that any dissemination or duplication of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please telephone us immediately, return the message to the sender, and delete the original message from your system.


----- Original Message ----
From: olivier.koulytchizky <olivier.koulytchizky@...>
To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 8:30:05 AM
Subject: [lxx] The meanings of the term : "Pantocrator" (Almighty)

First I want to apologize for my approximate English. I am a French
student in medieval History of Art and I am conducting a research
about the iconographic type (image) of the "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
before iconoclasm and its meaning. Then I am specially interested by
all textual reliable sources. After a short research on database like
the BIOLA University (http://unbound. biola.edu/), I found that this
term appears 51 times in the Old Testament. But I am not sure that the
translation of the term "Pantocrator" which have been
chosen for the Greeks is truly or genuinely in relation with the
original meaning from the Hebrew Bible before she was translated into
Greek for the LXX between the 3rd to 1st in Alexandria.

Is any one can give me pieces of information about this original
meaning, in other words, is the translation "Pantocrator" is correct.
If not, what is the original meaning in the Jewish texts. I have read
the different messages of this forum about this theme (Almighty) : I
understand that this translation is debatable, but I do not really
understand the original correct meaning (in short terms). If you need,
I can indicate all the parts where the term Pantocrator is used in the
Old Testament.

In a second time, maybe, there are on this forum few specialists of
the first centuries after Christ and maybe they are able to indicate
me the texts of patristic (by example Athanase of Alexandria) which
used this term of Pantocrator ?
Thanks a lot.

With best regards.

Olivier KOULYTCHIZKY
(Universit«± Toulouse II)




Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

#2251 From: Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@...>
Date: Sat May 12, 2007 2:41 pm
Subject: Re: The meanings of the term : "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
papoutsis1
Send Email Send Email
 

You should also know that there is no word in the Hebrew that actually supports the Septuagint rendering of "Pantocrator".  In the great majority of instances where the Greek words are used, the Hebrew is a proper name, "Shaddai."  This is one name for deity in the Hebrew Bible alongside Yahweh.  No doubt these names go back to a polytheistic time.  The Greek translators did not want to use any proper names for God and certainly not two different ones.  Yahweh becomes "The Lord".  Of course, "Shaddai" could also be translated that way, but given the difference they wanted to render it differently.  In Job, Shaddai is depicted as exercising extensive control.  The substitution of "Pantocrator" seemed to fit.  Elsewhere the translators of the LXX employed diverse terms and strategies.  

 

I got this from an article off og a Greek Orthodox website, but I could not find a cite to give. Sorry.


 
Peter A. Papoutsis
 
This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information intended only for the addressee named above. If you are not the addressee or the intended recipient of this message, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the addressee, then be notified hereby that any dissemination or duplication of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please telephone us immediately, return the message to the sender, and delete the original message from your system.


----- Original Message ----
From: olivier.koulytchizky <olivier.koulytchizky@...>
To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 8:30:05 AM
Subject: [lxx] The meanings of the term : "Pantocrator" (Almighty)

First I want to apologize for my approximate English. I am a French
student in medieval History of Art and I am conducting a research
about the iconographic type (image) of the "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
before iconoclasm and its meaning. Then I am specially interested by
all textual reliable sources. After a short research on database like
the BIOLA University (http://unbound. biola.edu/), I found that this
term appears 51 times in the Old Testament. But I am not sure that the
translation of the term "Pantocrator" which have been
chosen for the Greeks is truly or genuinely in relation with the
original meaning from the Hebrew Bible before she was translated into
Greek for the LXX between the 3rd to 1st in Alexandria.

Is any one can give me pieces of information about this original
meaning, in other words, is the translation "Pantocrator" is correct.
If not, what is the original meaning in the Jewish texts. I have read
the different messages of this forum about this theme (Almighty) : I
understand that this translation is debatable, but I do not really
understand the original correct meaning (in short terms). If you need,
I can indicate all the parts where the term Pantocrator is used in the
Old Testament.

In a second time, maybe, there are on this forum few specialists of
the first centuries after Christ and maybe they are able to indicate
me the texts of patristic (by example Athanase of Alexandria) which
used this term of Pantocrator ?
Thanks a lot.

With best regards.

Olivier KOULYTCHIZKY
(Université Toulouse II)




TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.

#2252 From: "philippe guillaume" <Philippe.guillaume@...>
Date: Sat May 12, 2007 4:09 pm
Subject: Re: The meanings of the term : "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
Philippe.guillaume@...
Send Email Send Email
 
Salut Olivier,
 
J'aimerai bien savoir où tu trouves l'équivalent hébraique de Pantocrator dans l'AT et s'il s'agit bien de El-Shaddai
 
Salutations,

 
On 5/12/07, olivier.koulytchizky <olivier.koulytchizky@...> wrote:

First I want to apologize for my approximate English. I am a French
student in medieval History of Art and I am conducting a research
about the iconographic type (image) of the "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
before iconoclasm and its meaning. Then I am specially interested by
all textual reliable sources. After a short research on database like
the BIOLA University ( http://unbound.biola.edu/), I found that this
term appears 51 times in the Old Testament. But I am not sure that the
translation of the term "Pantocrator" which have been
chosen for the Greeks is truly or genuinely in relation with the
original meaning from the Hebrew Bible before she was translated into
Greek for the LXX between the 3rd to 1st in Alexandria.

Is any one can give me pieces of information about this original
meaning, in other words, is the translation "Pantocrator" is correct.
If not, what is the original meaning in the Jewish texts. I have read
the different messages of this forum about this theme (Almighty) : I
understand that this translation is debatable, but I do not really
understand the original correct meaning (in short terms). If you need,
I can indicate all the parts where the term Pantocrator is used in the
Old Testament.

In a second time, maybe, there are on this forum few specialists of
the first centuries after Christ and maybe they are able to indicate
me the texts of patristic (by example Athanase of Alexandria) which
used this term of Pantocrator ?
Thanks a lot.

With best regards.

Olivier KOULYTCHIZKY
(Université Toulouse II)




--
Dr Philippe Guillaume
Stelserstrasse 478A
CH-7220 SCHIERS
Tel. +81 330 34 37

#2253 From: "Kevin P. Edgecomb" <kevin@...>
Date: Sat May 12, 2007 5:39 pm
Subject: RE: The meanings of the term : "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
kedgecom2002
Send Email Send Email
 
Dear Olivier,
Your research sounds very interesting.

As others have mentioned, Greek Pantokrator and Latin Omniopotens, with
English Almighty, are all often a translation of the Hebrew Shadday, a word
of disputed meaning.  It is perhaps related to the Akkadian shadu, mountain,
or to the Arabic root sh-d-d, "to be strong."  I suggest taking a look at
the Koehler and Baumgartner  Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament
(Brill, 2001).  In the English edition, the pages for Shadday are volume 2,
pp 1420-1422.  Bibliographic information is given there.

Regards,
Kevin P. Edgecomb
Berkeley, California

-----Original Message-----
From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
olivier.koulytchizky
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 6:30 AM
To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [lxx] The meanings of the term : "Pantocrator" (Almighty)

First I want to apologize for my approximate English. I am a French student
in medieval History of Art and I am conducting a research about the
iconographic type (image) of the "Pantocrator" (Almighty) before iconoclasm
and its meaning. Then I am specially interested by all textual reliable
sources. After a short research on database like the BIOLA University
(http://unbound.biola.edu/), I found that this term appears 51 times in the
Old Testament. But I am not sure that the translation of the term
"Pantocrator" which have been chosen for the Greeks is truly or genuinely in
relation with the original meaning from the Hebrew Bible before she was
translated into Greek for the LXX between the  3rd to 1st in Alexandria.

Is any one can give me pieces of information about this original meaning, in
other words, is the translation "Pantocrator" is correct.
If not, what is the original meaning in the Jewish texts. I have read the
different messages of this forum about this theme (Almighty) : I understand
that this translation is debatable, but I do not really understand the
original correct meaning (in short terms). If you need, I can indicate all
the parts where the term Pantocrator is used in the Old Testament.

In a second time, maybe, there are on this forum few specialists of the
first centuries after Christ and maybe they are able to indicate me the
texts of patristic (by example Athanase of Alexandria) which used this term
of Pantocrator ?
Thanks a lot.

With best regards.

Olivier KOULYTCHIZKY
(Université Toulouse II)




Yahoo! Groups Links

#2254 From: "olivier.koulytchizky" <olivier.koulytchizky@...>
Date: Sat May 12, 2007 9:26 pm
Subject: Re: The meanings of the term : "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
olivier.koul...
Send Email Send Email
 
Bonjour,

C'est bien là l'objet de ma question. Est-ce que le terme de
"Tout-puissant" issu du grec "Pantokrator" est conforme dans sa
signfication symbolique au nom hébraïque El-Shaddai à patir duquel il
a été traduit dans la Septante. Il me semble comprendre qu'il y a un
glissement sémantique, voire peut-être un parti-pris dans l'adoption
du terme de "Pantokrator"... mais je ne suis pas spécialiste de ce
domaine ! Par contre on peut s'interroger dans le cas d'un choix
délibéré de ce terme de "Pantokrator" sur le pourquoi de ce choix. Y
a-t-il pu avoir une influence des attributs donnés aux dieux grecs
comme "Zeus Pantocrator", on sait que le Christ a hérité  de certains
épithètes comme "Soter" ou "Philanthropos". Sous les Ptolémées lors de
la rédaction de la LXX, y a-t-il eu un Sarapis "Pantocrator" (le
Sarapis "Philanthropos" semble avoir existé) qui aurait pu marquer les
esprits et favoriser l'usage du terme lors de la traduction ?

Cordialement

Olivier Koulytchizky





--- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "philippe guillaume"
<Philippe.guillaume@...> wrote:
>
> Salut Olivier,
>
> J'aimerai bien savoir où tu trouves l'équivalent hébraique de
Pantocrator
> dans l'AT et s'il s'agit bien de El-Shaddai
>
> Salutations,
>
>
> On 5/12/07, olivier.koulytchizky <olivier.koulytchizky@...>
> wrote:
> >
> >   First I want to apologize for my approximate English. I am a French
> > student in medieval History of Art and I am conducting a research
> > about the iconographic type (image) of the "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
> > before iconoclasm and its meaning. Then I am specially interested by
> > all textual reliable sources. After a short research on database like
> > the BIOLA University (http://unbound.biola.edu/), I found that this
> > term appears 51 times in the Old Testament. But I am not sure that the
> > translation of the term "Pantocrator" which have been
> > chosen for the Greeks is truly or genuinely in relation with the
> > original meaning from the Hebrew Bible before she was translated into
> > Greek for the LXX between the 3rd to 1st in Alexandria.
> >
> > Is any one can give me pieces of information about this original
> > meaning, in other words, is the translation "Pantocrator" is correct.
> > If not, what is the original meaning in the Jewish texts. I have read
> > the different messages of this forum about this theme (Almighty) : I
> > understand that this translation is debatable, but I do not really
> > understand the original correct meaning (in short terms). If you need,
> > I can indicate all the parts where the term Pantocrator is used in the
> > Old Testament.
> >
> > In a second time, maybe, there are on this forum few specialists of
> > the first centuries after Christ and maybe they are able to indicate
> > me the texts of patristic (by example Athanase of Alexandria) which
> > used this term of Pantocrator ?
> > Thanks a lot.
> >
> > With best regards.
> >
> > Olivier KOULYTCHIZKY
> > (Université Toulouse II)
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Dr Philippe Guillaume
> Stelserstrasse 478A
> CH-7220 SCHIERS
> Tel. +81 330 34 37
>

#2255 From: "olivier.koulytchizky" <olivier.koulytchizky@...>
Date: Sat May 12, 2007 10:31 pm
Subject: Pantokrator : the polytheistic context
olivier.koul...
Send Email Send Email
 
Dear all LXX members,

Thanks a lot for all informations about the difficult translation of
one of the name of God (Shaddai) into "Pantokrator" and about its
different   possible meanings. I am very happy to meet few
"francophones". I have few questions about the polytheistic context
when the word "Pantokrator" is chosen in the LXX to translate
"Shaddai". Is any study has been done to define the possibility that
this word of "Pantokrator" came from epithet (attribute) of Greek or
egyptian gods ? I think at "Soter" or "philanthropos" which has been
used later for the Christ. We know a "Zeus Pantokrator" and a "Sarapis
philanthropos" but quid about a possible "Sarapis pantokrator" under
the reign of Ptolémées ?

Olivier Koulytchizky

#2256 From: "philippe guillaume" <Philippe.guillaume@...>
Date: Sun May 13, 2007 8:11 pm
Subject: Re: The meanings of the term : "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
Philippe.guillaume@...
Send Email Send Email
 
For Shadday, see Knauf in Dictionary of deities and demons in the Bible / Karel van der Toorn ... [et al.], eds.. -  2nd, extensively rev. ed. - Leiden : Brill, 1999.
In any case, nothing to do with Pantokrator.

 
On 5/12/07, Kevin P. Edgecomb <kevin@...> wrote:

Dear Olivier,
Your research sounds very interesting.

As others have mentioned, Greek Pantokrator and Latin Omniopotens, with
English Almighty, are all often a translation of the Hebrew Shadday, a word
of disputed meaning. It is perhaps related to the Akkadian shadu, mountain,
or to the Arabic root sh-d-d, "to be strong." I suggest taking a look at
the Koehler and Baumgartner Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament
(Brill, 2001). In the English edition, the pages for Shadday are volume 2,
pp 1420-1422. Bibliographic information is given there.

Regards,
Kevin P. Edgecomb
Berkeley, California

-----Original Message-----
From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto: lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
olivier.koulytchizky
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 6:30 AM
To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [lxx] The meanings of the term : "Pantocrator" (Almighty)

First I want to apologize for my approximate English. I am a French student
in medieval History of Art and I am conducting a research about the
iconographic type (image) of the "Pantocrator" (Almighty) before iconoclasm
and its meaning. Then I am specially interested by all textual reliable
sources. After a short research on database like the BIOLA University
( http://unbound.biola.edu/), I found that this term appears 51 times in the
Old Testament. But I am not sure that the translation of the term
"Pantocrator" which have been chosen for the Greeks is truly or genuinely in
relation with the original meaning from the Hebrew Bible before she was
translated into Greek for the LXX between the 3rd to 1st in Alexandria.

Is any one can give me pieces of information about this original meaning, in
other words, is the translation "Pantocrator" is correct.
If not, what is the original meaning in the Jewish texts. I have read the
different messages of this forum about this theme (Almighty) : I understand
that this translation is debatable, but I do not really understand the
original correct meaning (in short terms). If you need, I can indicate all
the parts where the term Pantocrator is used in the Old Testament.

In a second time, maybe, there are on this forum few specialists of the
first centuries after Christ and maybe they are able to indicate me the
texts of patristic (by example Athanase of Alexandria) which used this term
of Pantocrator ?
Thanks a lot.

With best regards.

Olivier KOULYTCHIZKY
(Université Toulouse II)

Yahoo! Groups Links




--
Dr Philippe Guillaume
Stelserstrasse 478A
CH-7220 SCHIERS
Tel. +81 330 34 37

#2257 From: "olivier.koulytchizky" <olivier.koulytchizky@...>
Date: Mon May 14, 2007 8:08 pm
Subject: Re: The meanings of the term : "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
olivier.koul...
Send Email Send Email
 
I want to correct an error i did : the occurences of the term
PANTOKRATWR in the LXX seems occur, at least, 170 times (thanks to
Arne) and not 51 times as i said. Thanks again to all people who
helped me to understand the meanings of this term and its origin.

Olivier Koulytchizky
Master History of Art
Université Toulouse II



--- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "philippe guillaume"
<Philippe.guillaume@...> wrote:
>
> For Shadday, see Knauf in Dictionary of deities and demons in the
> Bible / Karel van der Toorn ... [et al.], eds.. -  2nd, extensively rev.
> ed. - Leiden : Brill, 1999.
> In any case, nothing to do with Pantokrator.
>
>
> On 5/12/07, Kevin P. Edgecomb <kevin@...> wrote:
> >
> >   Dear Olivier,
> > Your research sounds very interesting.
> >
> > As others have mentioned, Greek Pantokrator and Latin Omniopotens,
with
> > English Almighty, are all often a translation of the Hebrew Shadday, a
> > word
> > of disputed meaning. It is perhaps related to the Akkadian shadu,
> > mountain,
> > or to the Arabic root sh-d-d, "to be strong." I suggest taking a
look at
> > the Koehler and Baumgartner Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old
> > Testament
> > (Brill, 2001). In the English edition, the pages for Shadday are
volume 2,
> > pp 1420-1422. Bibliographic information is given there.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Kevin P. Edgecomb
> > Berkeley, California
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com <lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
> > lxx@yahoogroups.com <lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of
> > olivier.koulytchizky
> > Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 6:30 AM
> > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com <lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [lxx] The meanings of the term : "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
> >
> > First I want to apologize for my approximate English. I am a French
> > student
> > in medieval History of Art and I am conducting a research about the
> > iconographic type (image) of the "Pantocrator" (Almighty) before
> > iconoclasm
> > and its meaning. Then I am specially interested by all textual
reliable
> > sources. After a short research on database like the BIOLA University
> > (http://unbound.biola.edu/), I found that this term appears 51
times in
> > the
> > Old Testament. But I am not sure that the translation of the term
> > "Pantocrator" which have been chosen for the Greeks is truly or
genuinely
> > in
> > relation with the original meaning from the Hebrew Bible before
she was
> > translated into Greek for the LXX between the 3rd to 1st in
Alexandria.
> >
> > Is any one can give me pieces of information about this original
meaning,
> > in
> > other words, is the translation "Pantocrator" is correct.
> > If not, what is the original meaning in the Jewish texts. I have
read the
> > different messages of this forum about this theme (Almighty) : I
> > understand
> > that this translation is debatable, but I do not really understand the
> > original correct meaning (in short terms). If you need, I can
indicate all
> > the parts where the term Pantocrator is used in the Old Testament.
> >
> > In a second time, maybe, there are on this forum few specialists
of the
> > first centuries after Christ and maybe they are able to indicate
me the
> > texts of patristic (by example Athanase of Alexandria) which used this
> > term
> > of Pantocrator ?
> > Thanks a lot.
> >
> > With best regards.
> >
> > Olivier KOULYTCHIZKY
> > (Université Toulouse II)
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Dr Philippe Guillaume
> Stelserstrasse 478A
> CH-7220 SCHIERS
> Tel. +81 330 34 37
>

#2258 From: Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@...>
Date: Wed May 16, 2007 4:39 am
Subject: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs
papoutsis1
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Hello Guys:
 
I have two quick question. I hit a snag with the footnote to Esaias Ch 20:3 in Rahlfs Septuaginta. The note reads: "TRIA ETI ESTAI EIS + KAI NOESOUSIN. I translated TRAI ETI ESTAI EIS as: "There will be three years for..." the KAI NOESOUSIN I am having a problem with. I want to translate this as: "and discerning" or "and understanding." This may be my modern Greek creeping in or a complete lack of understaning of the word and of the whole phrase for that matter. SO, any help would be appriciated. Thanks.  
 
Peter A. Papoutsis
 
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#2259 From: "Matthew Johnson" <mej1960@...>
Date: Wed May 16, 2007 4:59 am
Subject: Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs
mej1960
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--- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Guys:
>
> I have two quick question. I hit a snag with the footnote to Esaias
Ch 20:3 in Rahlfs Septuaginta. The note reads: "TRIA ETI ESTAI EIS +
KAI NOESOUSIN.

What transcription are you following? If that 'E' is really an Eta,
then the B-greek transcription (which I thought would be preferred
here) would be NOHSOUSIN, which is future 3rd person from NOEW, and
fits the context well.

I would check the note in Rahlfs myself, but as I write this, I do not
have ready access to my dead-tree copy.

BTW: the Perseus Morphologicl tool confirms that NOESOUSIN does not
exist, but NOHSOUSIN is as described above (also subj. etc., but this
does not fit as well).

  I translated TRAI ETI ESTAI EIS as: "There will be three years
for..." the KAI NOESOUSIN I am having a problem with. I want to
translate this as: "and discerning" or "and understanding." This may
be my modern Greek creeping in or a complete lack of understaning of
the word and of the whole phrase for that matter. SO, any help would
be appriciated. Thanks.
>
> Peter A. Papoutsis
>
> This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information
intended only for the addressee named above. If you are not the
addressee or the intended recipient of this message, or the employee
or agent responsible for delivering the message to the addressee, then
be notified hereby that any dissemination or duplication of this
e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error,
please telephone us immediately, return the message to the sender, and
delete the original message from your system.
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________\
____
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#2260 From: Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@...>
Date: Wed May 16, 2007 12:21 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs
papoutsis1
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Ok so I was on the right track, but where does "KAI NOHSOUSIN" fit in as an addition from Codex Sinaiticus? Is it an addition that occurs at the very end of verse three (3) or after the phrase it was next too. Rahlfs' not is not that clear to me. Usually I'm pretty good at understanding them but I get stumped every once in a while. Any help would be appriciated.
 
Peter A. Papoutsis
 
This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information intended only for the addressee named above. If you are not the addressee or the intended recipient of this message, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the addressee, then be notified hereby that any dissemination or duplication of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please telephone us immediately, return the message to the sender, and delete the original message from your system.


----- Original Message ----
From: Matthew Johnson <mej1960@...>
To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 10:59:27 PM
Subject: [lxx] Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs

--- In lxx@yahoogroups. com, Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@ ...> wrote:
>
> Hello Guys:
>
> I have two quick question. I hit a snag with the footnote to Esaias
Ch 20:3 in Rahlfs Septuaginta. The note reads: "TRIA ETI ESTAI EIS +
KAI NOESOUSIN.

What transcription are you following? If that 'E' is really an Eta,
then the B-greek transcription (which I thought would be preferred
here) would be NOHSOUSIN, which is future 3rd person from NOEW, and
fits the context well.

I would check the note in Rahlfs myself, but as I write this, I do not
have ready access to my dead-tree copy.

BTW: the Perseus Morphologicl tool confirms that NOESOUSIN does not
exist, but NOHSOUSIN is as described above (also subj. etc., but this
does not fit as well).

I translated TRAI ETI ESTAI EIS as: "There will be three years
for..." the KAI NOESOUSIN I am having a problem with. I want to
translate this as: "and discerning" or "and understanding. " This may
be my modern Greek creeping in or a complete lack of understaning of
the word and of the whole phrase for that matter. SO, any help would
be appriciated. Thanks.
>
> Peter A. Papoutsis
>
> This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information
intended only for the addressee named above. If you are not the
addressee or the intended recipient of this message, or the employee
or agent responsible for delivering the message to the addressee, then
be notified hereby that any dissemination or duplication of this
e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error,
please telephone us immediately, return the message to the sender, and
delete the original message from your system.
>
>
>
>
>
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> Need Mail bonding?
> Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
> http://answers. yahoo.com/ dir/?link= list&sid= 396546091
>




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#2261 From: Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@...>
Date: Wed May 16, 2007 12:37 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs
papoutsis1
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if KAI NOHSOUSIN is an addition to the end of verse 3 I would translate is as:
 
"...there will be three years for signs and portents to the Egyptians and Ethiopians (and they will believe)".

 

Let me know what you think


 
Peter A. Papoutsis
 
This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information intended only for the addressee named above. If you are not the addressee or the intended recipient of this message, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the addressee, then be notified hereby that any dissemination or duplication of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please telephone us immediately, return the message to the sender, and delete the original message from your system.


----- Original Message ----
From: Matthew Johnson <mej1960@...>
To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 10:59:27 PM
Subject: [lxx] Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs

--- In lxx@yahoogroups. com, Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@ ...> wrote:
>
> Hello Guys:
>
> I have two quick question. I hit a snag with the footnote to Esaias
Ch 20:3 in Rahlfs Septuaginta. The note reads: "TRIA ETI ESTAI EIS +
KAI NOESOUSIN.

What transcription are you following? If that 'E' is really an Eta,
then the B-greek transcription (which I thought would be preferred
here) would be NOHSOUSIN, which is future 3rd person from NOEW, and
fits the context well.

I would check the note in Rahlfs myself, but as I write this, I do not
have ready access to my dead-tree copy.

BTW: the Perseus Morphologicl tool confirms that NOESOUSIN does not
exist, but NOHSOUSIN is as described above (also subj. etc., but this
does not fit as well).

I translated TRAI ETI ESTAI EIS as: "There will be three years
for..." the KAI NOESOUSIN I am having a problem with. I want to
translate this as: "and discerning" or "and understanding. " This may
be my modern Greek creeping in or a complete lack of understaning of
the word and of the whole phrase for that matter. SO, any help would
be appriciated. Thanks.
>
> Peter A. Papoutsis
>
> This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information
intended only for the addressee named above. If you are not the
addressee or the intended recipient of this message, or the employee
or agent responsible for delivering the message to the addressee, then
be notified hereby that any dissemination or duplication of this
e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error,
please telephone us immediately, return the message to the sender, and
delete the original message from your system.
>
>
>
>
>
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> Need Mail bonding?
> Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
> http://answers. yahoo.com/ dir/?link= list&sid= 396546091
>




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#2262 From: "Matthew Johnson" <mej1960@...>
Date: Thu May 17, 2007 3:33 am
Subject: Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs
mej1960
Send Email Send Email
 
--- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@...> wrote:
>
> Ok so I was on the right track, but where does "KAI NOHSOUSIN" fit
in as an addition from Codex Sinaiticus? Is it an addition that occurs
at the very end of verse three (3) or after the phrase it was next
too. Rahlfs' not is not that clear to me.

That is why I have long wished for an explanation of symbols for
Rahlf's of comparable clarity to that for NA26 and UBS4;)

But that is how I understand Rahlf's 'fin.'; an addition that occurs
at the very end of verse three, so that the whole phrase reads:
ESTAI SHMEIA KAI TERATA TOIS AIGUPTIOIS KAI AIQIOYIN KAI NOHSOUSIN,
i.e.,

they [the years] shall be signs and wonders to the Egyptians and they
shall understand.

Now this reading sounds forced in a couple of ways: why, for example,
is it the years that are 'signs and wonders'? That is certainly not
the normal application of 'signs and wonders'. But since this is an
addition, so we need not expect perfect compatibility with the
presumed Vorlage, nor with the LXX translator's style.

> Usually I'm pretty good at understanding them but I get stumped
every once in a while. Any help would be appreciated.

I hope you do find this helpful.

Finally, I notice in another response, you want to translate NOEW as
'believe'. I am not sure why you want to do this; PISTEUW is the
normal verb for this, as in Job 9:16 or Psa 26:13.

[snip]

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