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Samaritans Converts to Christianity?   Message List  
Reply Message #1959 of 7937 |
Re: [loisy] Samaritans Converts to Christianity?


On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, g wrote:

> I'm searching for opinions regarding the
> role that Samaritan converts to Christianity
> might have played in Jerusalem, BEFORE the
> appointment of deacons there.
>
> Acts talks about a conflict between "Hellenes"
> or "Greeks" and the "Jews" of the Christian
> community. And this seems to be consistent with
> what we know of relations between Samaritans
> and Jews in general.
>
> However, there are those who think that this
> was merely a conflict between Greek speaking
> Jews and Hebrew speaking Jews.
>
> My problems with this view are:
>
> 1) So what happened to the Samaritans? With
> all of the recruiting Jesus did in Gallilee
> and even in Samaria, are there really so few
> Samaritan or Gallilee converts?
>
> 2) If they a Jew is called, more or less,
> a "Greek" because he speaks Greek, would Jesus
> have been called a "Greek" by the average
> Palestinian?
>
> Comments and tongue lashings welcome!

Hi, George,

Actually, this subject has been of considerable interest to me lately, and
I've been doing some research in this area. In my new book, this theme
will be very prominent. I think the Samaritans are very important for
understanding the real history of NT.

But I think your current focus may be a bit too narrow. Before we get to
the point of asking about Samaritan converts to Christianity in Jerusalem
at that particular period post-crucifixion, a number of important
background questions must be clarified first.

First of all, Who were the Samaritans, and why was there an enmity between
them and the Jews at the time of Jesus? This question alone will take a
very long time to answer. What was really the nature of the conflict
between the Pharisees and the Samaritans?

And there are still more questions,

- Can the Samaritans also be considered as Jews?
- Were the Samaritans closer theologically to the Sadduccees than to the
Pharisees?
- Why were the Samaritans critical of the Jerusalem Temple cult?

But the biggest, and the most politically sensitive question of all (in
the context of Judaism) seems to be,

- When did the Samaritan tradition really become separated from the
mainstream Jewish tradition, which is Jerusalem-based?

This question is a lot more complicated than many people may think.

Now, let's take a look at the Samaritans in the NT. To start with, it is
clear that, while Lk and Jn are quite interested in Samaritans, Mt thinks
otherwise,

Matthew 10:5-6 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following
instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the
Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel."

But according to Jn, Jesus, himself, stays in a Samaritan village right at
the beginning of his ministry, and makes a lot of converts there! This is
quite a contradiction, you will agree?

And for Lk, a Samaritan exceeds all others in his faith,

Lk 17:16 and he fell on his face at Jesus' feet, giving him thanks.
Now he was a Samaritan.
17 Then said Jesus, "Were not ten cleansed? Where are
the nine?
18 Was no one found to return and give praise to God
except this foreigner?"
19 And he said to him, "Rise and go your way; your faith
has made you well."

Also, according to Jn, Jesus was thought to be a Samaritan himself,

John 8:48 The Jews answered him, "Aren't we right in saying that you are a
Samaritan and demon-possessed?"

So, basically, we seem to get this split in the middle on this subject
between Mt/Mk (which really seem like two somewhat different versions of
one and the same tradition) and Jn/Lk. Generally, I see Mt/Mk as based on
an early Judean gospel, and Jn/Lk as based on a primitive Northern
Israeli, or Samaritan-friendly gospel.

In the course of my recent research, I've discovered a lot of completely
new evidence in this whole area. This is mostly found in the Pepysian
Gospel. So here are some of my latest findings summarised briefly. It will
all be explained in my book when it's out.

- Jesus was a close associate of JB, who was actually closely linked with
the Samaritans.

- It looks to me like the proto-Lk was the original Christian gospel. It
was the product of the Northern Judaism, current in Northern Israel and
Syria. pLk was also rather close to, and quite friendly with the
Samaritans.

- This pLk was rather short, and entirely Jewish in its spirit (i.e.
respectful of the Torah), and generally Jewish-friendly. I date its wide
publication to ca 80 ce.

- At some point, this pLk elicited a response from Jerusalem, from the
apostolic community there, and this response took the form of a
proto-Mk. This was the source of Mt/Mk. This pMk was the first edition of
a Judaic-Christian gospel -- representing the Southern Judaism. The
attitude of this exegetical school was more exclusivist-Judaic. The Hebrew
Mt represents this tradition best of all. This tradition tends to made
Jesus into a Judean, which he most likely wasn't in the real life.

- The pLk tradition advocated a Jewish religious reformation in the spirit
of Northern Judaism, and away from the Temple and its formalism (this is
also JB-connected). This was the real historical context of the Purging of
the Temple episode.

- Still later, a Matthean revision of both pMk and pLk brought these two
gospels together, and served as a basis for the Gospel according to the
Hebrews (GAH), which was a very important early Christian gospel. For
nearly four centuries, GAH became the dominant Christian gospel in Syria,
which was of course a very key place in the context of early Christian
history. This GAH was that famous gospel that Justin Martyr used, the
quotations from which are found in his writings. And much later, and after
some considerable revisions, GAH became known as the Diatessaron. Tatian,
in fact, did not write the Diatessaron (this seems like a false myth that
was spread after 400 ce for political purposes by the Catholic party).

- Essentially, the Pepysian Gospel represents the Gospel according to the
Hebrews, i.e. the earliest edition of the Diatessaron.

This is quite a lot of stuff, isn't it?

Cheers,

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku -=O=- Toronto

I doubt, therefore I might be.




Tue Apr 24, 2001 5:36 pm

yuku@...
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Message #1959 of 7937 |
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I'm searching for opinions regarding the role that Samaritan converts to Christianity might have played in Jerusalem, BEFORE the appointment of deacons there. ...
g
george.x.brooks@...
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Apr 24, 2001
3:40 am

... Hi, George, Actually, this subject has been of considerable interest to me lately, and I've been doing some research in this area. In my new book, this...
Yuri Kuchinsky
yuku@...
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Apr 24, 2001
5:36 pm

... [...] ... I would be interested to know how you see James' obvious loyalty to Temple cult in this context. He was a northerner, I think we agree, and we...
Hans Radax
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Apr 24, 2001
7:16 pm

... Hans, Nobody is questioning that there was a Jerusalem-based Jesus community, probably originally under the leadership of Peter. James seems to have been...
Yuri Kuchinsky
yuku@...
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Apr 25, 2001
5:27 pm

Sorry I've been away from this thread. I expected to be back much sooner. I've read through a lot of the posts, but have not read them all. So if I am not...
g
george.x.brooks@...
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Apr 26, 2001
1:02 am

George, You presented a very interesting view. Nevertheless, I think there are some points which demand clarification. ... I can agree with this. ... Yes. ... ...
Hans Radax
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Apr 26, 2001
4:00 pm

Good email, Hans! Here are my comments: You write: Where is the evidence that James was the eldest son (please, don't mention those infancy gosples :-) )? I'm...
Amalek of the Rechabi...
george.x.brooks@...
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Apr 26, 2001
5:21 pm

... the ... Well, my "thing" about infancy gospels is that they were written at a time and under circumstances that do not permit us to take their contents for...
Hans Radax
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Apr 27, 2001
3:25 pm

Hans, Your comments on Dositheus are awfully lengthy. Please remember that my comments about Dositheus are not key to my other thoughts. But I do think ...
Amalek of the Rechabi...
george.x.brooks@...
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Apr 27, 2001
6:50 pm

George wrote: <<You write that you do not understand what I mean about Jesus rejecting Samaritans. I refer to his comparing the UNCONVERTED Samaritans to...
Kanefer@...
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Apr 28, 2001
2:55 pm

... That's right, Patti, George seems to have confused these two references. Now, since George is so interested in the Samaritans, I'm posting a very important...
Yuri Kuchinsky
yuku@...
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Apr 28, 2001
5:59 pm

Yuri, That was pretty interesting about the "primitive" version of the encounter with the Samaritan woman. Most compelling discussion I've read about that...
Amalek of the Rechabi...
george.x.brooks@...
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Apr 28, 2001
7:06 pm

... Sorry about the length, but you stated that "there are also several uncanny similarities between Jesus and his movement and the SAMARITAN sect called the...
Hans Radax
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Apr 28, 2001
5:30 pm

Hans, This post is a PERFECT example of how these web-based discussions can last for MONTHS. It is only NOW that what you are objecting to is what you THOUGHT...
Amalek of the Rechabi...
george.x.brooks@...
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Apr 28, 2001
6:46 pm

... Dum, dum, dum! My apologies. I've already apologized twice for getting these two stories mixed up.... and I'm having a dickens of a time making sure I...
Amalek of the Rechabi...
george.x.brooks@...
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Apr 28, 2001
7:09 pm

Hi George :-) You wrote: << Wow.... so now you are adding on a redactional layer about who Jesus went to visit? How about the other way? How about his NEVER...
Hans Radax
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Apr 28, 2001
11:02 pm

Hans, Again you misinterpret my comments. I LOVE layers of redaction. I think there are several in the New Testament. But there should be MOTIVATIONS for the...
Amalek of the Rechabi...
george.x.brooks@...
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Apr 29, 2001
1:28 am

George, I wish you well, too ;-) Hans....
Hans Radax
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Apr 29, 2001
3:33 am

Hans, you write: "> I have cited an article of the Catholic Encyclopaedia, stating that ... When you do find it, I believe what you actually will find is that...
Amalek of the Rechabi...
george.x.brooks@...
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Apr 27, 2001
7:07 pm

... As far as I see, the only parallel you can find between Jesus (alleged) death and Dositheus' death is that both ended in a cave, one laid there, in a...
Hans Radax
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Apr 28, 2001
5:30 pm

Hans, As I just mentioned in a prior post, if YOU are interested in learning more about the Dositheans, there IS a book available. I cannot teach what I...
Amalek of the Rechabi...
george.x.brooks@...
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Apr 28, 2001
7:03 pm

... Three months. In other words, Jesus' and JB's public preaching went more or less three years side by side. And you tell me that Jesus was JB's follower. ...
Hans Radax
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Apr 28, 2001
11:02 pm

I love thumbing through Josephus. I don't like being led on a fishing expedition. You say three months for the number of months that Jesus outlived John the...
Amalek of the Rechabi...
george.x.brooks@...
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Apr 29, 2001
1:30 am

... Hans, Maybe not "necessary", but still a persuasive argument can be made on this basis, supported also by other relevant evidence. ... It seems like you're...
Yuri Kuchinsky
yuku@...
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Apr 29, 2001
6:25 pm

... it is ... if ... taken ... short, ... scratch? ... Gospel ... Yuri, I do not argue that Jesus' public ministry was of a very short duration, on the...
Hans Radax
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Apr 30, 2001
12:41 am

Gosh, Hans, you DO write an awful lot! Your assessment about Samaritans and the Temple cultus misses two possibilities: 1) The Dositheans MAIN claim to fame...
Amalek of the Rechabi...
george.x.brooks@...
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Apr 30, 2001
1:50 am

... Yes, I am guilty of relapsing into bad habits. ... Maybe it is the whole concept I cannot understand. A convert to Judaism is usually called proselyte. The...
Hans Radax
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Apr 30, 2001
1:41 pm

... etc.), between a proselyte of Samaritan origin (or his children born and grown up in Jewish religion) and other Jews? Why do you ... The question of course...
Amalek of the Rechabi...
george.x.brooks@...
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Apr 30, 2001
9:18 pm

CORRECTION: Sorry about that... the sentence: "Maybe if you have CHILDREN by a Jewess.... I'll see you as Jewess.....but you ain't no Jew" should have been ...
Amalek of the Rechabi...
george.x.brooks@...
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Apr 30, 2001
9:21 pm

... This is the view of Morton Smith. See his PALESTINIAN PARTIES AND POLITICS..., Columbia, 1971. ... I wouldn't be surprised. Smith deals with some of these...
Yuri Kuchinsky
yuku@...
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May 1, 2001
10:14 pm
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