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  • Category: Theology
  • Founded: May 16, 2000
  • Language: English
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#42503 From: "Pastor Art Hebbeler" <pastor@...>
Date: Sun Apr 1, 2012 12:55 pm
Subject: RE: Lock-up the Hosts
pastorhebbeler
Send Email Send Email
 

Now that is funny!

 

I have always felt (tongue in cheek) that the greater mystery of faith was to believe the wafer was bread. If you can believe that, then Christ’s presence is a no-brainer.

 

Actually, I was kinda thinking that about folks who actually believe that wafers are a valid substitute for bread. 

John Dornheim


#42504 From: Ian Gomersall <ian.gomersall@...>
Date: Thu Apr 5, 2012 11:32 pm
Subject: Re: Lock-up the Hosts
iangomersall...
Send Email Send Email
 
I recall an older priest when i was a curate telling me that an old man started to attend his church aand at the moment of Communion took out his pocket watch and carefully placed the host in the watch. When this was raised with the elderly gentleman it became clear he was taking It home for his wife who was immobile in bed.

The priest explained to the gentleman that there were others means by which she could receive Holy Communion.

Ian
Tenebrae - on our church blog: www.ourchurchblog.co.uk 

#42505 From: "Lewis H. Whitaker" <lhwhitaker@...>
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2012 12:30 am
Subject: Re: Lock-up the Hosts
lhwatl
Send Email Send Email
 
One can hardly fault his piety, or his devotion to his wife, even if it lies outside of the letter of the law. 

Lew




On Apr 5, 2012, at 7:32 PM, Ian Gomersall <ian.gomersall@...> wrote:

I recall an older priest when i was a curate telling me that an old man started to attend his church aand at the moment of Communion took out his pocket watch and carefully placed the host in the watch. When this was raised with the elderly gentleman it became clear he was taking It home for his wife who was immobile in bed.

The priest explained to the gentleman that there were others means by which she could receive Holy Communion.

Ian
Tenebrae - on our church blog: www.ourchurchblog.co.uk 

#42506 From: David J Strang <davidjstrang@...>
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2012 2:12 am
Subject: Re: : Easter Even.
davidjstrang
Send Email Send Email
 


I am old enough to still think of what is now generally called "Holy Saturday"
as "Easter Even" which was the term in TEC 28 Prayer Book, from the
term coined for the day in the 1529 First Prayer Book of Edward VI.
 
In TEC 1928 Prayer Book, there is the standard Collect, which is of a frankly
Easter tone, with the Epistle and Gospel being yet anticipatory of Easter.
 
TEC '79 Prayer Book calls it "Holy Saturday", and though Collect and
proper scriptural lessons and Psalm are listed, there is the advisory on
p283 that "There is no celebration of the Eucharist on this day".  This
assumes there will be a [restored] Easter Vigil in the evening.
 
I have two questions:  (1) Where does the name "Easter Even" come from,
and (2) was there at some point a custom of celebrating the Eucharist during
this day, using the Collect, Epistle, and Gospel listed in TEC 28 and earlier
Anglican Prayer Books?
 
I realize that the RCC was busy doing the Liturgy of the Easter Vigil
in the morning of Holy Saturday prior to the Pian Reforms.  So a third
question would be whether there was a RCC custom prior to the
Pian Reforms of a Mass on this day.
 
 
David Strang - Just looking out at a lovely full Paschal Moon in the clear
                      skies of the USA East tonight.



#42507 From: Michael Thannisch <mjthannisch@...>
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2012 5:04 am
Subject: Re: : Easter Even.
mjthannisch...
Send Email Send Email
 
Even is just another word for Eve.


Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach
 
+Mar Michael Abportus
Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/
http://patriotstatesman.com/
http://laportemorganspointshoreacresnews.webs.com/
http://santoeastcemeteryassociation.webs.com/
204 Sylvan Ave.
La Porte, TX 77571
281-867-9081 (home)
281-867-0335 (office)
832-266-8153 (mobile)
281-867-0576 (fax)


--- On Thu, 4/5/12, David J Strang <davidjstrang@...> wrote:

From: David J Strang <davidjstrang@...>
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l]: Easter Even.
To: "liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com" <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thursday, April 5, 2012, 9:12 PM

 



I am old enough to still think of what is now generally called "Holy Saturday"
as "Easter Even" which was the term in TEC 28 Prayer Book, from the
term coined for the day in the 1529 First Prayer Book of Edward VI.
 
In TEC 1928 Prayer Book, there is the standard Collect, which is of a frankly
Easter tone, with the Epistle and Gospel being yet anticipatory of Easter.
 
TEC '79 Prayer Book calls it "Holy Saturday", and though Collect and
proper scriptural lessons and Psalm are listed, there is the advisory on
p283 that "There is no celebration of the Eucharist on this day".  This
assumes there will be a [restored] Easter Vigil in the evening.
 
I have two questions:  (1) Where does the name "Easter Even" come from,
and (2) was there at some point a custom of celebrating the Eucharist during
this day, using the Collect, Epistle, and Gospel listed in TEC 28 and earlier
Anglican Prayer Books?
 
I realize that the RCC was busy doing the Liturgy of the Easter Vigil
in the morning of Holy Saturday prior to the Pian Reforms.  So a third
question would be whether there was a RCC custom prior to the
Pian Reforms of a Mass on this day.
 
 
David Strang - Just looking out at a lovely full Paschal Moon in the clear
                      skies of the USA East tonight.



#42508 From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2012 7:13 pm
Subject: Re: : Easter Even.
cowling.douglas@...
Send Email Send Email
 
On 4/5/12 10:12 PM, "David J Strang" <davidjstrang@...> wrote:

I have two questions:  (1) Where does the name "Easter Even" come from,
and (2) was there at some point a custom of celebrating the Eucharist during
this day, using the Collect, Epistle, and Gospel listed in TEC 28 and earlier
Anglican Prayer Books?
 

The provision in the oldest Prayer Books around Easter shows how inadequate the scholarly knowledge of the history of liturgy was for Cranmer and his colleagues, as opposed to the proficiency of the biblical scholars.  Cranmer abolished all of the Holy Week rites from Palm Sunday to Easter Day on the assumption that they were all accretions to the “primitive” church. All of the familiar Holy Week rites were not officially authorized until the new prayer books and alternative service books of the 1970 –80’s.

Cranmer’s lack of historical knowledge produced some odd hybrids. The Holy Week sacramentals with their “diverse cringings” were all swept away except for the continuous readings of the four Passion accounts beginning with Matthew on Palm Sunday, continuing with Mark and Luke on Monday to Thursday, and John on Good Friday. Maundy Thursday became the “Thursday before Easter” with no vestiges of the chrism or mandatum masses: the Gospel was the second half of the Lucan Passion

Cranmer seems to have been influenced by the immediate tradition of the Easter Vigil on Saturday morning and Easter Day on Sunday: for him there were full masses on Saturday and Sunday.  However, he couldn’t sort out their significance, so he moved the readings of the Vigil to Easter Day and provided new readings chosen to make Easter Even a kind of Burial of Christ commemoration. In this, he was clearly influenced by his memory of the Watch before the Sepulchre with the buried Host which was such a popular devotion and whose loss was sorely lamented by the laity.

And even odder. He retained the old lazy medieval three day “short octave” with propers for the Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday  after Easter.  In this, he may have been influenced by Luther who similarly kept the three day short octave for Christmas, Easter and Pentecost. Thomas Tallis set the psalms for the three days of Christmas in one of the earliest prototypes of Anglican chant. We can see this provision in the Lutheran calendar as late as the Christmas Oratorio of Bach from the 1730’s where the first three parts of the oratorio are assigned to the Three Days of Christmas.

I’ve never been able to discover why these calendrical oddities were maintained even in the 1662 BCP or how they were celebrated in the 16th – late 19th centuries. I suspect that they were considered “festivals” and were marked with the customary Matins, Litany and Ante-Communion.  Someone with more knowledge of the evangelical-tractarian controversies of the late 19th century can tell us if anyone actually celebrated the eucharist on those days. There is an old Urban Ecclesiastical Legend which circulates in the gin-and-lace crowd that those wicked evangelicals celebrated communion on Good Friday and Easter Even just to spite the anglo-catholics. There are certainly examples of the eucharist on Good Friday stemming from Protestant sources.

One always thinks of the “Importance of Being Earnest” when discussing ancient practices:

Dr. Chasuble. [With a scholar’s shudder.]
Believe me, I do not deserve so neologistic a phrase.
The precept as well as the practice of the Primitive Church was distinctly against matrimony.

Miss Prism. [Sententiously.]
That is obviously the reason why the Primitive Church has not lasted up to the present day.

Doug Cowling
Director of Music
St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
Toronto



#42509 From: Ian Gomersall <ian.gomersall@...>
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2012 9:48 pm
Subject: Re: : Easter Even.
iangomersall...
Send Email Send Email
 

Not quite about Communion on Good Friday in pre Tractarian days but... Pusey, writing in 1833 (Tract 18) comments that 

"It is within the memory of man, that the yearly Commemoration of our Blessed SAVIOUR’S death was in country congregations very generally omitted. This solemn day is now, I trust, almost universally observed; 

Ian

Maria Desolata Good Friday evening: www.ourchurchblog.co.uk

#42510 From: "William Renwick" <renwick@...>
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2012 10:17 pm
Subject: Re: : Easter Even.
renwick@...
Send Email Send Email
 
Doesn't this really open the whole question of whether observing the liturgical
year is the only valid liturgical way to follow Christ?  I mean, there are lots,
or were lots, of protestant denominations where the whole concept of relating
the theology of redemption to the solar cycle was considered
anathema--traditional Presbyterianism, or Calvinism, for instance.

No offense intended to anyone here, and maybe I am off-base.

happy easter to all.

William Renwick
renwick@...
School of the Arts
McMaster University
Hamilton Ontario CANADA L8S 4M2        
http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~renwick/wr.htm

#42511 From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2012 11:05 pm
Subject: Re: : Easter Even.
cowling.douglas@...
Send Email Send Email
 
On 4/6/12 6:17 PM, "William Renwick" <renwick@...>
wrote:

I mean, there are lots, or were lots, of protestant denominations where the
whole concept of relating the theology of redemption to the solar cycle was
considered anathema--traditional Presbyterianism, or Calvinism, for
instance.


And yet, except among Sabbatarians, the celebration of the First Day of the
Week has been universal, even though it hath no warrant of Scripture.

Doug Cowling
Director of Music
St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
Toronto

#42512 From: Frank Senn <fcsenn@...>
Date: Sat Apr 7, 2012 12:30 pm
Subject: Re: : Easter Even.
fcsenn
Send Email Send Email
 
Ah, but the Sabbath observance is a divine mandate.  And there are NT examples of Christians gathering on the first day of the week.  So it's no wonder the more biblicistic Protestants made Sunday inviolable while eschewing the rest of the church year calendar.

Frank C. Senn

--- On Fri, 4/6/12, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l]: Easter Even.
To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, April 6, 2012, 6:05 PM

 

On 4/6/12 6:17 PM, "William Renwick" <renwick@...>
wrote:

I mean, there are lots, or were lots, of protestant denominations where the
whole concept of relating the theology of redemption to the solar cycle was
considered anathema--traditional Presbyterianism, or Calvinism, for
instance.

And yet, except among Sabbatarians, the celebration of the First Day of the
Week has been universal, even though it hath no warrant of Scripture.

Doug Cowling
Director of Music
St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
Toronto


#42513 From: Frank Senn <fcsenn@...>
Date: Sat Apr 7, 2012 12:42 pm
Subject: Re: : Easter Even.
fcsenn
Send Email Send Email
 
One finds in the old Lutheran books full sets of propers for the Mass or Holy Communion on Good Friday and Holy Saturday.  I've often wondered if the example of Zwingli in Zurich in 1525 wasn't influential on all the Reformation traditions.  All Christians in the Middle Ages had been required to receive communion on Easter, first making a confession to a priest.  Zwingli arranged that the whole city would receive communion after penitential services earlier in Holy Week.  So he divided the communicants so that various groupings (youth, women, men - I don't remember in what exact order) received communion on Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, Holy Saturday, and Easter Sunday.  Since communion from the reserved sacrament wasn't an option, as Lutherans and Anglicans took up this practice it is understandable that full propers would be provided for the Mass or Holy Communion on those days.  In the old Lutheran Common Service those propers included, Introit, Epistle, Gradual or Lenten Tract, and Gospel.  In Germany, Good Friday remains the biggest communion day of the year (perhaps because it's also a holiday).  

Frank C. Senn

--- On Fri, 4/6/12, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l]: Easter Even.
To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, April 6, 2012, 2:13 PM

 

On 4/5/12 10:12 PM, "David J Strang" <davidjstrang@...> wrote:

I have two questions:  (1) Where does the name "Easter Even" come from,
and (2) was there at some point a custom of celebrating the Eucharist during
this day, using the Collect, Epistle, and Gospel listed in TEC 28 and earlier
Anglican Prayer Books?
 

The provision in the oldest Prayer Books around Easter shows how inadequate the scholarly knowledge of the history of liturgy was for Cranmer and his colleagues, as opposed to the proficiency of the biblical scholars.  Cranmer abolished all of the Holy Week rites from Palm Sunday to Easter Day on the assumption that they were all accretions to the “primitive” church. All of the familiar Holy Week rites were not officially authorized until the new prayer books and alternative service books of the 1970 –80’s.

Cranmer’s lack of historical knowledge produced some odd hybrids. The Holy Week sacramentals with their “diverse cringings” were all swept away except for the continuous readings of the four Passion accounts beginning with Matthew on Palm Sunday, continuing with Mark and Luke on Monday to Thursday, and John on Good Friday. Maundy Thursday became the “Thursday before Easter” with no vestiges of the chrism or mandatum masses: the Gospel was the second half of the Lucan Passion

Cranmer seems to have been influenced by the immediate tradition of the Easter Vigil on Saturday morning and Easter Day on Sunday: for him there were full masses on Saturday and Sunday.  However, he couldn’t sort out their significance, so he moved the readings of the Vigil to Easter Day and provided new readings chosen to make Easter Even a kind of Burial of Christ commemoration. In this, he was clearly influenced by his memory of the Watch before the Sepulchre with the buried Host which was such a popular devotion and whose loss was sorely lamented by the laity.

And even odder. He retained the old lazy medieval three day “short octave” with propers for the Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday  after Easter.  In this, he may have been influenced by Luther who similarly kept the three day short octave for Christmas, Easter and Pentecost. Thomas Tallis set the psalms for the three days of Christmas in one of the earliest prototypes of Anglican chant. We can see this provision in the Lutheran calendar as late as the Christmas Oratorio of Bach from the 1730’s where the first three parts of the oratorio are assigned to the Three Days of Christmas.

I’ve never been able to discover why these calendrical oddities were maintained even in the 1662 BCP or how they were celebrated in the 16th – late 19th centuries. I suspect that they were considered “festivals” and were marked with the customary Matins, Litany and Ante-Communion.  Someone with more knowledge of the evangelical-tractarian controversies of the late 19th century can tell us if anyone actually celebrated the eucharist on those days. There is an old Urban Ecclesiastical Legend which circulates in the gin-and-lace crowd that those wicked evangelicals celebrated communion on Good Friday and Easter Even just to spite the anglo-catholics. There are certainly examples of the eucharist on Good Friday stemming from Protestant sources.

One always thinks of the “Importance of Being Earnest” when discussing ancient practices:

Dr. Chasuble. [With a scholar’s shudder.]
Believe me, I do not deserve so neologistic a phrase.
The precept as well as the practice of the Primitive Church was distinctly against matrimony.

Miss Prism. [Sententiously.]
That is obviously the reason why the Primitive Church has not lasted up to the present day.

Doug Cowling
Director of Music
St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
Toronto



#42514 From: "Lewis H. Whitaker" <lhwhitaker@...>
Date: Sat Apr 7, 2012 2:23 pm
Subject: Re: : Easter Even.
lhwatl
Send Email Send Email
 
And the Sabbath -- Saturday -- was never abolished. It is still a Eucharistic day in the Orthodox Churches, even in Lent. Sunday is "The Lord's Day," not the Sabbath. 

Lew




On Apr 7, 2012, at 8:30 AM, Frank Senn <fcsenn@...> wrote:

Ah, but the Sabbath observance is a divine mandate.  And there are NT examples of Christians gathering on the first day of the week.  So it's no wonder the more biblicistic Protestants made Sunday inviolable while eschewing the rest of the church year calendar.

Frank C. Senn

--- On Fri, 4/6/12, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l]: Easter Even.
To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, April 6, 2012, 6:05 PM

 

On 4/6/12 6:17 PM, "William Renwick" <renwick@...>
wrote:

I mean, there are lots, or were lots, of protestant denominations where the
whole concept of relating the theology of redemption to the solar cycle was
considered anathema--traditional Presbyterianism, or Calvinism, for
instance.

And yet, except among Sabbatarians, the celebration of the First Day of the
Week has been universal, even though it hath no warrant of Scripture.

Doug Cowling
Director of Music
St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
Toronto


#42515 From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
Date: Sat Apr 7, 2012 2:42 pm
Subject: Re: : Easter Even.
cowling.douglas@...
Send Email Send Email
 
On 4/7/12 8:30 AM, "Frank Senn" <fcsenn@...> wrote:

Ah, but the Sabbath observance is a divine mandate.  And there are NT examples of Christians gathering on the first day of the week.  So it's no wonder the more biblicistic Protestants made Sunday inviolable while eschewing the rest of the church year calendar.

I remember seeing somewhere (the Baltmore Cathecism?) an exhortation to keep Saturday from sundown as Sunday: no Saturday Night Fever.  Was this a common observance in the West in the middle ages?  I think the East views Sunday beginning with the Saturday all-night vigil.

Doug Cowling
Director of Music
St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
Toronto


#42516 From: Michael Thannisch <mjthannisch@...>
Date: Sat Apr 7, 2012 4:07 pm
Subject: Re: : Easter Even.
mjthannisch...
Send Email Send Email
 
It seems that many churches are returning to the Liturgical year.

Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach
 
+Mar Michael Abportus
Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/
http://patriotstatesman.com/
http://laportemorganspointshoreacresnews.webs.com/
http://santoeastcemeteryassociation.webs.com/
204 Sylvan Ave.
La Porte, TX 77571
281-867-9081 (home)
281-867-0335 (office)
832-266-8153 (mobile)
281-867-0576 (fax)


--- On Fri, 4/6/12, William Renwick <renwick@...> wrote:

From: William Renwick <renwick@...>
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l]: Easter Even.
To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, April 6, 2012, 5:17 PM

 

Doesn't this really open the whole question of whether observing the liturgical year is the only valid liturgical way to follow Christ? I mean, there are lots, or were lots, of protestant denominations where the whole concept of relating the theology of redemption to the solar cycle was considered anathema--traditional Presbyterianism, or Calvinism, for instance.

No offense intended to anyone here, and maybe I am off-base.

happy easter to all.

William Renwick
renwick@...
School of the Arts
McMaster University
Hamilton Ontario CANADA L8S 4M2 http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~renwick/wr.htm



#42517 From: Michael Thannisch <mjthannisch@...>
Date: Sat Apr 7, 2012 4:13 pm
Subject: Re: : Easter Even.
mjthannisch...
Send Email Send Email
 
I think if you look around Acts, you will find some scriptural warrant.  It seems services were held Saturday night (which of course Jewishly speaking is Sunday.  ) The actual big change was from Saturday night (or as we say in German Sonnabend) to Sunday morning.


Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach
 
+Mar Michael Abportus
Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/
http://patriotstatesman.com/
http://laportemorganspointshoreacresnews.webs.com/
http://santoeastcemeteryassociation.webs.com/
204 Sylvan Ave.
La Porte, TX 77571
281-867-9081 (home)
281-867-0335 (office)
832-266-8153 (mobile)
281-867-0576 (fax)


--- On Fri, 4/6/12, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l]: Easter Even.
To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, April 6, 2012, 6:05 PM

 

On 4/6/12 6:17 PM, "William Renwick" <renwick@...>
wrote:

I mean, there are lots, or were lots, of protestant denominations where the
whole concept of relating the theology of redemption to the solar cycle was
considered anathema--traditional Presbyterianism, or Calvinism, for
instance.

And yet, except among Sabbatarians, the celebration of the First Day of the
Week has been universal, even though it hath no warrant of Scripture.

Doug Cowling
Director of Music
St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
Toronto


#42518 From: David J Strang <davidjstrang@...>
Date: Sat Apr 7, 2012 10:18 pm
Subject: Re: : Papal Vigil.
davidjstrang
Send Email Send Email
 
I an watching a portion of the Easter Vigil from Saint Peter's Basilica, and note the now
customary six enormous office lights/candles placed on the Papal Altar at an angle, with
the central matching crucifix.  To the west just behind - or in front of, viewed from the
nave - is the matching 7th [pontifical] candle.  
 
Since there were about 8 adults for Baptism they draped them with plain white capes,
and confirmed them all just after the Baptism Liturgy.  They then were put to "work"
bringing up the elements for communion.  Nothing like being baptized and confirmed
by the Bishop of Rome!
 
There is, of course, no liturgical stage quite like the Papal Altar at Saint Peter's, but at the
cost of enormous flights of stairs.  One has to be steady on the feet and with reasonable
cardiovascular function to participate around that altar.
 
 
David Strang. 

From: Michael Thannisch <mjthannisch@...>
To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, April 7, 2012 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l]: Easter Even.
 
I think if you look around Acts, you will find some scriptural warrant.  It seems services were held Saturday night (which of course Jewishly speaking is Sunday.  ) The actual big change was from Saturday night (or as we say in German Sonnabend) to Sunday morning.


Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach
 
+Mar Michael Abportus
Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/http://patriotstatesman.com/http://laportemorganspointshoreacresnews.webs.com/http://santoeastcemeteryassociation.webs.com/
204 Sylvan Ave.
La Porte, TX 77571
281-867-9081 (home)281-867-0335 (office)832-266-8153 (mobile)281-867-0576 (fax)


--- On Fri, 4/6/12, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l]: Easter Even.
To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, April 6, 2012, 6:05 PM

 
On 4/6/12 6:17 PM, "William Renwick" <renwick@...>
wrote:

I mean, there are lots, or were lots, of protestant denominations where the
whole concept of relating the theology of redemption to the solar cycle was
considered anathema--traditional Presbyterianism, or Calvinism, for
instance.

And yet, except among Sabbatarians, the celebration of the First Day of the
Week has been universal, even though it hath no warrant of Scripture.

Doug Cowling
Director of Music
St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
Toronto


#42519 From: Sandford Maclean <MacLean@...>
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 12:01 am
Subject: Re: : Papal Vigil.
jsfmacljr
Send Email Send Email
 
I wonder why the Bishop of Rome didn't celebrate the Easter Vigil at his cathedral church, the sight of today's Stational Mass?

In Christ,
Sandford MacLean

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-04-07, at 18:18, David J Strang <davidjstrang@...> wrote:

 

I an watching a portion of the Easter Vigil from Saint Peter's Basilica, and note the now
customary six enormous office lights/candles placed on the Papal Altar at an angle, with
the central matching crucifix.  To the west just behind - or in front of, viewed from the
nave - is the matching 7th [pontifical] candle.  
 
Since there were about 8 adults for Baptism they draped them with plain white capes,
and confirmed them all just after the Baptism Liturgy.  They then were put to "work"
bringing up the elements for communion.  Nothing like being baptized and confirmed
by the Bishop of Rome!
 
There is, of course, no liturgical stage quite like the Papal Altar at Saint Peter's, but at the
cost of enormous flights of stairs.  One has to be steady on the feet and with reasonable
cardiovascular function to participate around that altar.
 
 
David Strang. 

From: Michael Thannisch <mjthannisch@...>
To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, April 7, 2012 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l]: Easter Even.
 
I think if you look around Acts, you will find some scriptural warrant.  It seems services were held Saturday night (which of course Jewishly speaking is Sunday.  ) The actual big change was from Saturday night (or as we say in German Sonnabend) to Sunday morning.


Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach
 
+Mar Michael Abportus
Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
204 Sylvan Ave.
La Porte, TX 77571
281-867-9081 (home)281-867-0335 (office)832-266-8153 (mobile)281-867-0576 (fax)


--- On Fri, 4/6/12, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l]: Easter Even.
To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, April 6, 2012, 6:05 PM

 
On 4/6/12 6:17 PM, "William Renwick" <renwick@...>
wrote:

I mean, there are lots, or were lots, of protestant denominations where the
whole concept of relating the theology of redemption to the solar cycle was
considered anathema--traditional Presbyterianism, or Calvinism, for
instance.

And yet, except among Sabbatarians, the celebration of the First Day of the
Week has been universal, even though it hath no warrant of Scripture.

Doug Cowling
Director of Music
St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
Toronto


#42520 From: "Lewis H. Whitaker" <lhwhitaker@...>
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 2:13 am
Subject: Re: : Papal Vigil.
lhwatl
Send Email Send Email
 
Probably because he wanted to be at St Peter's? How is one to answer a question like this?

Lew




On Apr 7, 2012, at 8:01 PM, Sandford Maclean <MacLean@...> wrote:

I wonder why the Bishop of Rome didn't celebrate the Easter Vigil at his cathedral church, the sight of today's Stational Mass?

In Christ,
Sandford MacLean

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-04-07, at 18:18, David J Strang <davidjstrang@...> wrote:

 

I an watching a portion of the Easter Vigil from Saint Peter's Basilica, and note the now
customary six enormous office lights/candles placed on the Papal Altar at an angle, with
the central matching crucifix.  To the west just behind - or in front of, viewed from the
nave - is the matching 7th [pontifical] candle.  
 
Since there were about 8 adults for Baptism they draped them with plain white capes,
and confirmed them all just after the Baptism Liturgy.  They then were put to "work"
bringing up the elements for communion.  Nothing like being baptized and confirmed
by the Bishop of Rome!
 
There is, of course, no liturgical stage quite like the Papal Altar at Saint Peter's, but at the
cost of enormous flights of stairs.  One has to be steady on the feet and with reasonable
cardiovascular function to participate around that altar.
 
 
David Strang. 

From: Michael Thannisch <mjthannisch@...>
To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, April 7, 2012 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l]: Easter Even.
 
I think if you look around Acts, you will find some scriptural warrant.  It seems services were held Saturday night (which of course Jewishly speaking is Sunday.  ) The actual big change was from Saturday night (or as we say in German Sonnabend) to Sunday morning.


Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach
 
+Mar Michael Abportus
Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
204 Sylvan Ave.
La Porte, TX 77571
281-867-9081 (home)281-867-0335 (office)832-266-8153 (mobile)281-867-0576 (fax)


--- On Fri, 4/6/12, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l]: Easter Even.
To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, April 6, 2012, 6:05 PM

 
On 4/6/12 6:17 PM, "William Renwick" <renwick@...>
wrote:

I mean, there are lots, or were lots, of protestant denominations where the
whole concept of relating the theology of redemption to the solar cycle was
considered anathema--traditional Presbyterianism, or Calvinism, for
instance.

And yet, except among Sabbatarians, the celebration of the First Day of the
Week has been universal, even though it hath no warrant of Scripture.

Doug Cowling
Director of Music
St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
Toronto


#42521 From: David J Strang <davidjstrang@...>
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 2:39 am
Subject: Re: : Papal Vigil.
davidjstrang
Send Email Send Email
 
The Pope's visits to the various major churches in Rome are very strongly
orchestrated.  Saint John Lateran Cathedral isn't the site of the Easter Vigi, but
if memory serves it was the site for the Maundy Liturgy.  Some of the Liber
Usualis have notations specifying "Station: St. Mary Major" on, say, the Feast
of the Assumption [Aug. 15], etc.
 
 
David Strang.

From: Sandford Maclean <MacLean@...>
To: "liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com" <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 7, 2012 8:01 PM
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l]: Papal Vigil.
 
I wonder why the Bishop of Rome didn't celebrate the Easter Vigil at his cathedral church, the sight of today's Stational Mass?

In Christ,
Sandford MacLean
Sent from my iPhone
On 2012-04-07, at 18:18, David J Strang <davidjstrang@...> wrote:
 
I an watching a portion of the Easter Vigil from Saint Peter's Basilica, and note the now
customary six enormous office lights/candles placed on the Papal Altar at an angle, with
the central matching crucifix.  To the west just behind - or in front of, viewed from the
nave - is the matching 7th [pontifical] candle.  
 
Since there were about 8 adults for Baptism they draped them with plain white capes,
and confirmed them all just after the Baptism Liturgy.  They then were put to "work"
bringing up the elements for communion.  Nothing like being baptized and confirmed
by the Bishop of Rome!
 
There is, of course, no liturgical stage quite like the Papal Altar at Saint Peter's, but at the
cost of enormous flights of stairs.  One has to be steady on the feet and with reasonable
cardiovascular function to participate around that altar.
 
 
David Strang. 

From: Michael Thannisch <mjthannisch@...>
To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, April 7, 2012 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l]: Easter Even.
 
I think if you look around Acts, you will find some scriptural warrant.  It seems services were held Saturday night (which of course Jewishly speaking is Sunday.  ) The actual big change was from Saturday night (or as we say in German Sonnabend) to Sunday morning.


Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach
 
+Mar Michael Abportus
Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
204 Sylvan Ave.
La Porte, TX 77571
281-867-9081 (home) 281-867-0335 (office) 832-266-8153 (mobile) 281-867-0576 (fax)


--- On Fri, 4/6/12, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l]: Easter Even.
To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, April 6, 2012, 6:05 PM

 
On 4/6/12 6:17 PM, "William Renwick" <renwick@...>wrote:I mean, there are lots, or were lots, of protestant denominations where thewhole concept of relating the theology of redemption to the solar cycle wasconsidered anathema--traditional Presbyterianism, or Calvinism, forinstance. And yet, except among Sabbatarians, the celebration of the First Day of theWeek has been universal, even though it hath no warrant of Scripture.Doug CowlingDirector of MusicSt. Philip's Church, EtobicokeToronto

#42522 From: "Sandford MacLean" <MacLean@...>
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 3:09 am
Subject: Re: : Papal Vigil.
jsfmacljr
Send Email Send Email
 
David,
The Pope celebrated the Easter Vigil at the Basilica of St. John Lateran in the past couple of years.
 
Sandford MacLean
 
Sent: Saturday, 07 April, 2012 22:39
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l]: Papal Vigil.
 
 

The Pope's visits to the various major churches in Rome are very strongly
orchestrated.  Saint John Lateran Cathedral isn't the site of the Easter Vigi, but
if memory serves it was the site for the Maundy Liturgy.  Some of the Liber
Usualis have notations specifying "Station: St. Mary Major" on, say, the Feast
of the Assumption [Aug. 15], etc.
 
 
David Strang.
 
From: Sandford Maclean <MacLean@...>
To: "liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com" <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 7, 2012 8:01 PM
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l]: Papal Vigil.
 
I wonder why the Bishop of Rome didn't celebrate the Easter Vigil at his cathedral church, the sight of today's Stational Mass?
 
In Christ,
Sandford MacLean
Sent from my iPhone
On 2012-04-07, at 18:18, David J Strang <davidjstrang@...> wrote:
 
I an watching a portion of the Easter Vigil from Saint Peter's Basilica, and note the now
customary six enormous office lights/candles placed on the Papal Altar at an angle, with
the central matching crucifix.  To the west just behind - or in front of, viewed from the
nave - is the matching 7th [pontifical] candle. 
 
Since there were about 8 adults for Baptism they draped them with plain white capes,
and confirmed them all just after the Baptism Liturgy.  They then were put to "work"
bringing up the elements for communion.  Nothing like being baptized and confirmed
by the Bishop of Rome!
 
There is, of course, no liturgical stage quite like the Papal Altar at Saint Peter's, but at the
cost of enormous flights of stairs.  One has to be steady on the feet and with reasonable
cardiovascular function to participate around that altar.
 
 
David Strang.
 
From: Michael Thannisch <mjthannisch@...>
To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, April 7, 2012 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l]: Easter Even.
 
I think if you look around Acts, you will find some scriptural warrant.  It seems services were held Saturday night (which of course Jewishly speaking is Sunday.  ) The actual big change was from Saturday night (or as we say in German Sonnabend) to Sunday morning.


Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach
 
+Mar Michael Abportus
Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
204 Sylvan Ave.
La Porte, TX 77571
281-867-9081 (home) 281-867-0335 (office) 832-266-8153 (mobile) 281-867-0576 (fax)


--- On Fri, 4/6/12, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l]: Easter Even.
To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, April 6, 2012, 6:05 PM

 
On 4/6/12 6:17 PM, "William Renwick" <renwick@...>wrote:I mean, there are lots, or were lots, of protestant denominations where thewhole concept of relating the theology of redemption to the solar cycle wasconsidered anathema--traditional Presbyterianism, or Calvinism, forinstance. And yet, except among Sabbatarians, the celebration of the First Day of theWeek has been universal, even though it hath no warrant of Scripture.Doug CowlingDirector of MusicSt. Philip's Church, EtobicokeToronto

#42523 From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 3:11 am
Subject: Re: : Papal Vigil.
cowling.douglas@...
Send Email Send Email
 
On 4/7/12 8:01 PM, "Sandford Maclean" <MacLean@...> wrote:

I wonder why the Bishop of Rome didn't celebrate the Easter Vigil at his cathedral church, the sight of today's Stational Mass?


Probably because of the crowds. All of the Holy Week masses, except for Maundy Thursday at the Lateran, are at St. Peter’s.

I know I still have some Protestant sensibilities as I am always scandalized by the applause that greets the pope on Maundy Thursday and Good Friday.

Doug Cowling
Director of Music
St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
Toronto



#42524 From: "Larenzo" <laribaup@...>
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 2:17 pm
Subject: The Great Vigil of Easter in the Episcopal CHurch
laribaup
Send Email Send Email
 
I am curious that since the Church has adopted the RCL. What does one do about
the FACT that the Lessons at the Great VIgil and several of their Collects no
longer are able to be used. Our Parish used the BCP Version of the Vigil
Lections and not the RCL. We will continue to do so until the BCP is PROPERLY
revised by General Convention, on new copies of the Prayer Book are printed with
the appropriate changes. (These changes also affect other MAJOR Holy Days.)

#42525 From: David J Strang <davidjstrang@...>
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 2:18 pm
Subject: Re: : Papal Vigil.
davidjstrang
Send Email Send Email
 
According to various websites:  (1) The Papal "Station" for Maundy Thursday IS St. John
Lateran Cathedral; and (2) The Pope DID celebrate this year's Maundy Liturgy at his
Cathedral - St. John Lateran.  (3) There is a traditional annual schedule for Papal Liturgies, and
the Station for August 15th, for example, is Saint Mary Major Basilica.   The Pope does get
around Rome, it seems.  Saint Peter's doesn't have a complete monopoly.
 
 
David Strang.

From: David J Strang <davidjstrang@...>
To: "liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com" <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 7, 2012 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l]: Papal Vigil.
The Pope's visits to the various major churches in Rome are very strongly
orchestrated.  Saint John Lateran Cathedral isn't the site of the Easter Vigi, but
if memory serves it was the site for the Maundy Liturgy.  Some of the Liber
Usualis have notations specifying "Station: St. Mary Major" on, say, the Feast
of the Assumption [Aug. 15], etc.
 
 
David Strang.

From: Sandford Maclean <MacLean@...>
To: "liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com" <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 7, 2012 8:01 PM
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l]: Papal Vigil.
 
I wonder why the Bishop of Rome didn't celebrate the Easter Vigil at his cathedral church, the sight of today's Stational Mass?

In Christ,
Sandford MacLean
Sent from my iPhone
On 2012-04-07, at 18:18, David J Strang <davidjstrang@...> wrote:
 
I an watching a portion of the Easter Vigil from Saint Peter's Basilica, and note the now
customary six enormous office lights/candles placed on the Papal Altar at an angle, with
the central matching crucifix.  To the west just behind - or in front of, viewed from the
nave - is the matching 7th [pontifical] candle.  
 
Since there were about 8 adults for Baptism they draped them with plain white capes,
and confirmed them all just after the Baptism Liturgy.  They then were put to "work"
bringing up the elements for communion.  Nothing like being baptized and confirmed
by the Bishop of Rome!
 
There is, of course, no liturgical stage quite like the Papal Altar at Saint Peter's, but at the
cost of enormous flights of stairs.  One has to be steady on the feet and with reasonable
cardiovascular function to participate around that altar.
 
 
David Strang. 

From: Michael Thannisch <mjthannisch@...>
To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, April 7, 2012 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l]: Easter Even.
 
I think if you look around Acts, you will find some scriptural warrant.  It seems services were held Saturday night (which of course Jewishly speaking is Sunday.  ) The actual big change was from Saturday night (or as we say in German Sonnabend) to Sunday morning.


Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach
 
+Mar Michael Abportus
Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
204 Sylvan Ave.
La Porte, TX 77571
281-867-9081 (home) 281-867-0335 (office) 832-266-8153 (mobile) 281-867-0576 (fax)


--- On Fri, 4/6/12, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l]: Easter Even.
To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, April 6, 2012, 6:05 PM

 
On 4/6/12 6:17 PM, "William Renwick" <renwick@...> wrote: I mean, there are lots, or were lots, of protestant denominations where the whole concept of relating the theology of redemption to the solar cycle was considered anathema--traditional Presbyterianism, or Calvinism, for instance. And yet, except among Sabbatarians, the celebration of the First Day of the Week has been universal, even though it hath no warrant of Scripture. Doug Cowling Director of Music St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke Toronto

#42526 From: "Lewis H. Whitaker" <lhwhitaker@...>
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 3:07 pm
Subject: Re: The Great Vigil of Easter in the Episcopal CHurch
lhwatl
Send Email Send Email
 
I didn't think the RCL mandated new readings for the Easter Vigil.

Lew




On Apr 8, 2012, at 10:17 AM, "Larenzo" <laribaup@...> wrote:

> I am curious that since the Church has adopted the RCL. What does one do about
the FACT that the Lessons at the Great VIgil and several of their Collects no
longer are able to be used. Our Parish used the BCP Version of the Vigil
Lections and not the RCL. We will continue to do so until the BCP is PROPERLY
revised by General Convention, on new copies of the Prayer Book are printed with
the appropriate changes. (These changes also affect other MAJOR Holy Days.)
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/ To
write to the moderators, please email: liturgy-l-owner@...!
Groups Links
>
>
>

#42527 From: Steve Benner <oremussteve@...>
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 4:12 pm
Subject: Re: The Great Vigil of Easter in the Episcopal CHurch
oremussteve
Send Email Send Email
 
They have been reprinted with the RCL replacing the previous Eucharistic lectionary. The lectionary is also available on the national church website.

On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Larenzo <laribaup@...> wrote:
 

I am curious that since the Church has adopted the RCL. What does one do about the FACT that the Lessons at the Great VIgil and several of their Collects no longer are able to be used. Our Parish used the BCP Version of the Vigil Lections and not the RCL. We will continue to do so until the BCP is PROPERLY revised by General Convention, on new copies of the Prayer Book are printed with the appropriate changes. (These changes also affect other MAJOR Holy Days.)


--
Fr. Steve Benner
oremus.org
daily prayer, liturgy, hymns, prayer resources since 1993

#42528 From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 5:06 pm
Subject: Re: : Papal Vigil.
cowling.douglas@...
Send Email Send Email
 
On 4/8/12 10:18 AM, "David J Strang" <davidjstrang@...> wrote:

There is a traditional annual schedule for Papal Liturgies, and
the Station for August 15th, for example, is Saint Mary Major Basilica.   

The pope is always on vacation – ad acquas — in August and leaves the Villa San Gandolpho only to celebrate mass on the Assumption at the parish church.


Doug Cowling
Director of Music
St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
Toronto





#42529 From: "Larenzo" <laribaup@...>
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 7:57 pm
Subject: Re: The Great Vigil of Easter in the Episcopal CHurch
laribaup
Send Email Send Email
 
http://www.episcopalchurch.org/notice/standing-commission-liturgy-and-music-offe\
rs-statement-concerning-inconsistencies-holy-week-l

This is the SCLM advisory. This does not seem to deal with the FACT that the RCL
not only changes the readings for Holy Week, but at the Great Vigil, requires a
revision of the BCP.

The RCL replaced

God's Presence in a renewed Israel
Isaiah 4:2 6

Psalm 122

Let us pray.     (Silence)

O God, you led your ancient people by a pillar of cloud by day
and a pillar of fire by night: Grant that we, who serve you
now on earth, may come to the joy of that heavenly Jerusalem,
where all tears are wiped away and where your saints for ever
sing your praise; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.


with


p. 290: God's Wisdom calls a renewed Israel  - Baruch 3:9-15,32–4:4,

or Proverbs 8:1-8,19-21;9:4b-6

Psalm 19

Is the Collect still to be used? It really no longer fits.

#42530 From: Sean Ferrell <ferrellsd@...>
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 8:41 pm
Subject: Re: Re: The Great Vigil of Easter in the Episcopal CHurch
frseanferrell
Send Email Send Email
 
The historical documents, Catechism, and the Lectionary in the American BCP can be changed with only one vote of General Convention instead of complete Prayer Book revision, requiring three positive votes at three successive General Conventions. So, the Lectionary of the 1979 BCP has been changed to the Episcopal version of the RCL. (Or that's what I think I was taught by Marion Hatchett and Neil Alexander. )

Perhaps the less cumbersome thing for the SCLM to do would be to alter the Episcopal version of the RCL to change it back to the original Easter Vigil lessons. 

All in all, what a mess. 

The Reverend Sean Ferrell
Saint Luke's Episcopal Church
 

On Apr 8, 2012, at 2:57 PM, "Larenzo" <laribaup@...> wrote:

 

http://www.episcopalchurch.org/notice/standing-commission-liturgy-and-music-offers-statement-concerning-inconsistencies-holy-week-l

This is the SCLM advisory. This does not seem to deal with the FACT that the RCL not only changes the readings for Holy Week, but at the Great Vigil, requires a revision of the BCP.

The RCL replaced

God's Presence in a renewed Israel
Isaiah 4:2 6

Psalm 122

Let us pray. (Silence)

O God, you led your ancient people by a pillar of cloud by day
and a pillar of fire by night: Grant that we, who serve you
now on earth, may come to the joy of that heavenly Jerusalem,
where all tears are wiped away and where your saints for ever
sing your praise; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

with


p. 290: God's Wisdom calls a renewed Israel - Baruch 3:9-15,32–4:4,

or Proverbs 8:1-8,19-21;9:4b-6

Psalm 19

Is the Collect still to be used? It really no longer fits.


#42531 From: David J Strang <davidjstrang@...>
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2012 12:07 am
Subject: Re: Re: The Great Vigil of Easter
davidjstrang
Send Email Send Email
 
 The traditional scheme of Papal visits ["Stations"] to the basilicas of Rome predates
his summer "vacation" at Castel Gondolfo.  The Papal apartments there were
only constructed in the mid-1700's.  Popes had spent time in that small city
before the construction of the Papal apartments, but the visits were sporatic.
 
Thus, whether the Pope actually officiates at Saint Mary Major on 15th August
or not, that's where the old tradition has him on that date.  I do note that
Castel Gondolfo is all of 15 miles from Rome.  It would seem that he could
be driven into central Rome and back for that purpose quite easily.
 
Having driven in central Rome several times, however, I guess that "easily"
isn't the correct adverb.  IMHO Romans are the worst drivers in the world,
but perhaps a close second to those of Naples.
 
 
David Strang.




#42532 From: Ian Gomersall <ian.gomersall@...>
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2012 12:37 pm
Subject: Re: : Papal Vigil.
iangomersall...
Send Email Send Email
 
Could some kind soul explain how the 'Station at St X...' works? In what way is that 'station' marked on that day?

.... and - anyone point to photographs of the papal Triduum liturgies - and photo of the altar David describes at St peters?

--
Ian 
How will you mark the 50 days of Easter? 

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