I quite enjoyed reading Mr. Wolfe's article.  I don't seem to have a problem
with his opinions, and tend to agree with him.

I can find no fault with Mr. Wolfe's summation:  "40 years of the new Mass have
brought chaos and banality into the most visible and outward sign of the church.
Benedict XVI wants a return to order and meaning. So, it seems, does the next
generation of Catholics."

Sancte Andrea, ora pro nobis.

Sandford MacLean


From: Tom Poelker
Sent: Sunday, 29 November, 2009 21:45
To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com ; Liturgy Network List
Subject: [liturgy-l] There will be talk



The New York Times has published an article full of claims about Roman
Catholic liturgy.

I think it is irresponsible of the Times.
You might also be upset that it is full of statements of opinion about
liturgy expressed as facts.

Whatever you think, you are likely to hear references to it.

* Latin Mass Appeal
<http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/29/opinion/29wolfe.html?th&emc=th> *
By KENNETH J. WOLFE
Benedict XVI, a noted liturgist himself who is no fan of the past 40
years of change, has slowly reversed the innovations of his predecessors.

I would begin by disputing the description of the present pope as a
"noted liturgist".
Is anyone familiar with academic work done by Joseph Ratzinger in liturgy?
--
*

Tom Poelker
St. Louis. Missouri
USA

/-- Do all the easy nice things you can.
It?s nice to see people smile,
and it?s good practice. --/

*

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Nov 29, 2009, at 9:45 PM, Tom Poelker <TomPoelker@...> wrote:

> Is anyone familiar with academic work done by Joseph Ratzinger in
> liturgy?

How would you classify "The Spirit of the Liturgy"? Not sure it would
be "academic" but it does seem that he's written on the topic.

Peace,
Daniel

Dlawson@...

Uh, Tom, I read the article yesterday morning, probably much before
you read it or posted it. I don't need help parsing it. It is an
opinion piece regardless of how informed you feel it might be. I
suggest you either drop it or discuss the liturgical pieces. Whichever
you chose, it is much ado over nothing.
John Dornheim.



On Nov 29, 2009, at 11:49 PM, Tom Poelker <TomPoelker@...> wrote:

> The opinions are stated as if they were facts, not modified or
> annotated
> in any way as opinions.
> To say the least, it is misleading.
> *
>
> Tom Poelker
> St. Louis. Missouri
> USA
>
> /-- Do all the easy nice things you can.
> ItÂ’s nice to see people smile,
> and itÂ’s good practice. --/
>
> *
>
> John Dornheim wrote:
> >
> >
> > It is full of opinions because it is not a news article but an
> opinion
> > piece.
> > John Dornheim
> >
> > On Nov 29, 2009, at 9:45 PM, Tom Poelker <TomPoelker@...
> > <mailto:TomPoelker%40aim.com>> wrote:
> >
> > > The New York Times has published an article full of claims about
> Roman
> > > Catholic liturgy.
> > >
> > > I think it is irresponsible of the Times.
> > > You might also be upset that it is full of statements of opinion
> about
> > > liturgy expressed as facts.
> > >
> > > Whatever you think, you are likely to hear references to it.
> > >
> > > * Latin Mass Appeal
> > > <http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/29/opinion/29wolfe.html?th&emc=th
> > <http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/29/opinion/29wolfe.html?
> th&emc=th>> *
> > > By KENNETH J. WOLFE
> > > Benedict XVI, a noted liturgist himself who is no fan of the
> past 40
> > > years of change, has slowly reversed the innovations of his
> > > predecessors.
> > >
> > > I would begin by disputing the description of the present pope
> as a
> > > "noted liturgist".
> > > Is anyone familiar with academic work done by Joseph Ratzinger in
> > > liturgy?
> > > --
> > > *
> > >
> > > Tom Poelker
> > > St. Louis. Missouri
> > > USA
> > >
> > > /-- Do all the easy nice things you can.
> > > It?s nice to see people smile,
> > > and it?s good practice. --/
> > >
> > > *
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The opinions are stated as if they were facts, not modified or annotated
in any way as opinions.
To say the least, it is misleading.
*

Tom Poelker
St. Louis. Missouri
USA

/-- Do all the easy nice things you can.
ItÂ’s nice to see people smile,
and itÂ’s good practice. --/

*


John Dornheim wrote:
>
>
> It is full of opinions because it is not a news article but an opinion
> piece.
> John Dornheim
>
> On Nov 29, 2009, at 9:45 PM, Tom Poelker <TomPoelker@...
> <mailto:TomPoelker%40aim.com>> wrote:
>
> > The New York Times has published an article full of claims about Roman
> > Catholic liturgy.
> >
> > I think it is irresponsible of the Times.
> > You might also be upset that it is full of statements of opinion about
> > liturgy expressed as facts.
> >
> > Whatever you think, you are likely to hear references to it.
> >
> > * Latin Mass Appeal
> > <http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/29/opinion/29wolfe.html?th&emc=th
> <http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/29/opinion/29wolfe.html?th&emc=th>> *
> > By KENNETH J. WOLFE
> > Benedict XVI, a noted liturgist himself who is no fan of the past 40
> > years of change, has slowly reversed the innovations of his
> > predecessors.
> >
> > I would begin by disputing the description of the present pope as a
> > "noted liturgist".
> > Is anyone familiar with academic work done by Joseph Ratzinger in
> > liturgy?
> > --
> > *
> >
> > Tom Poelker
> > St. Louis. Missouri
> > USA
> >
> > /-- Do all the easy nice things you can.
> > It?s nice to see people smile,
> > and it?s good practice. --/
> >
> > *
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hmmm......

Not to argue for the objectivity of the NYT article, but I'm curious:

Bugnini was founding editor of /Ephemerides Liturgicae, /and was
appointed professor at two of the pontifical universities (notably not
one of those normally associated with liturgical studies)/ /but I'm
curious--Is anyone familiar with academic work done by Annibale Bugnini
prior to the Council? The only thing that might possibly qualify is a
collection of papal documents on liturgical renewal. While we are at it,
does anyone know what Bugnini's academic qualifications were?

(and no, I'm not carrying a brief one way or the other--curiosity struck
me after library hours.)

Walt Knowles
Berkeley, CA





Tom Poelker wrote:
> The New York Times has published an article full of claims about Roman
> Catholic liturgy.
>
>
> I would begin by disputing the description of the present pope as a
> "noted liturgist".
> Is anyone familiar with academic work done by Joseph Ratzinger in liturgy?
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It is full of opinions because it is not a news article but an opinion
piece.
John Dornheim



On Nov 29, 2009, at 9:45 PM, Tom Poelker <TomPoelker@...> wrote:

> The New York Times has published an article full of claims about Roman
> Catholic liturgy.
>
> I think it is irresponsible of the Times.
> You might also be upset that it is full of statements of opinion about
> liturgy expressed as facts.
>
> Whatever you think, you are likely to hear references to it.
>
> * Latin Mass Appeal
> <http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/29/opinion/29wolfe.html?th&emc=th> *
> By KENNETH J. WOLFE
> Benedict XVI, a noted liturgist himself who is no fan of the past 40
> years of change, has slowly reversed the innovations of his
> predecessors.
>
> I would begin by disputing the description of the present pope as a
> "noted liturgist".
> Is anyone familiar with academic work done by Joseph Ratzinger in
> liturgy?
> --
> *
>
> Tom Poelker
> St. Louis. Missouri
> USA
>
> /-- Do all the easy nice things you can.
> It?s nice to see people smile,
> and it?s good practice. --/
>
> *
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

When all else fails, use the Freemason card.

That's really where everything starts, y'know.... DaVinci (and his code),
Pope John XXIII (who started that Nasty council...) I could go on, but you
get the drift.

Lew

On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...
> wrote:

> On 11/29/09 9:45 PM, "Tom Poelker" <TomPoelker@...> wrote:
>
> > The New York Times has published an article full of claims about Roman
> > Catholic liturgy.
> >
> > I think it is irresponsible of the Times.
> > You might also be upset that it is full of statements of opinion about
> > liturgy expressed as facts.
>
> I enjoyed the accusation that Bugnini was (gasp) a freemason!
>
> Doug Cowling
> Director of Music
> St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
> Toronto
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
write to the moderators, please email:
> liturgy-l-owner@...! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 11/29/09 9:45 PM, "Tom Poelker" <TomPoelker@...> wrote:

> The New York Times has published an article full of claims about Roman
> Catholic liturgy.
>
> I think it is irresponsible of the Times.
> You might also be upset that it is full of statements of opinion about
> liturgy expressed as facts.

I enjoyed the accusation that Bugnini was (gasp) a freemason!

Doug Cowling
Director of Music
St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
Toronto

The New York Times has published an article full of claims about Roman
Catholic liturgy.

I think it is irresponsible of the Times.
You might also be upset that it is full of statements of opinion about
liturgy expressed as facts.

Whatever you think, you are likely to hear references to it.

* Latin Mass Appeal
<http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/29/opinion/29wolfe.html?th&emc=th> *
By KENNETH J. WOLFE
Benedict XVI, a noted liturgist himself who is no fan of the past 40
years of change, has slowly reversed the innovations of his predecessors.


I would begin by disputing the description of the present pope as a
"noted liturgist".
Is anyone familiar with academic work done by Joseph Ratzinger in liturgy?
--
*

Tom Poelker
St. Louis. Missouri
USA

/-- Do all the easy nice things you can.
It?s nice to see people smile,
and it?s good practice. --/

*


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I found the entire essay, but I think that readers outside the US will get all
the important parts from Tom's excerpting.  Yes, the shift from English to
Greek, and the implications thereof, are quite appropriate, if we think of
Eucharist /Holy Communion as modeling in a ritual way what we should live all
the time.  I wonder what this says about how we handle Eucharist liturgically,
as well as accept (or fail to accept) the outflow into our everyday lives.

Robin Drake
St. Anne's, Reston VA USA

  "Happiness is a how, not a what; a talent, not an object." - Hermann Hesse



----- Original Message ----
From: Tom Poelker <TomPoelker@...>
To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com; Liturgy Network List <LITNETWK@...>;
liz poelker <lizpoelker@...>; Gregory Warnusz <gwarnusz@...>;
Elsie McGrath <elsiemc@...>; Rose Hudson <reehud@...>
Sent: Sun, November 22, 2009 11:17:00 AM
Subject: [liturgy-l] Eucharistic Implications

From that epitome of theological insight, Parade Magazine, and a Jewish
author, come these insights about Eucharist.  He says "Thanksgiving",
but certainly slipping in the Greek synonym is permitted.


   Making Holiday Traditions Our Own

Jonathan Safran Foer is the best-selling author of "Everything is
Illuminated." His newest book is "Eating Animals."
http://www.parade.com/food/2009/11/22-make-holiday-traditions-your-own.html

In 1949, the first Thanksgiving that my family celebrated in America, a
card table and three folding chairs would have accommodated everyone.
More recently, we've required two dozen mismatched chairs and four
tables of slightly different heights, widths, and trustworthiness,
pushed together and covered in matching cloths. No one is fooled into
thinking this setup is perfect, but it is perfect.My aunt always places
a small pile of popcorn kernels on each plate, which, in the course of
the meal, we transfer to the table as symbols of things we are thankful
for. The ritual happens silently and in one's own good time. Out of the
corner of my eye, I might catch a parent, sibling, or uncle transferring
a kernel. It's impossible not to wonder what he or she is thinking
about. The wondering enriches the ritual: The gratitude is not performed
but shared and, in its mysteriousness, alive.


Thanksgiving is the meal we aspire for other meals to resemble, and the
Thanksgiving table is not a sanctuary from the world but a
representation of our best hope for it. Of the thousand or so meals we
eat every year, Thanksgiving dinner is the one that we try most
earnestly to get right. It holds the hope of being a good meal whose
ingredients, efforts, setting, and consumption are expressions of the
best in us. And it's about transmission. If the table is also a kind of
blackboard, our choices cannot help but be lessons.

. . .

This will be the first year that we celebrate in my home, the first time
I will prepare the food, and the first Thanksgiving meal at which my son
will be old enough to eat the food the rest of us eat. So what will he
eat? And what kinds of conversations will we have? Which rituals will I
perpetuate and which will I dispense with? What will I invent? At stake
when setting the Thanksgiving table is more than the placement of
silverware. To set the table, in this case, is to announce your vision
of how things ought to be.

<http://www.parade.com/food/slideshows/9-dinner-party-savings-tips.html>When
thinking about future Thanksgivings, I find myself returning to past
ones. I return to those pushed-together tables. At the end of every
Thanksgiving dinner, much of what began on top of them ended up beneath
them. The popcorn kernels inevitably scattered, and it was not uncommon,
upon visiting my uncle and aunt's house in the summer, to find---under
the living-room sofa, at the base of a bookshelf---an artifact of
someone's gratitude. It was impossible to know just how old that
thankfulness was.

That is my vision of how things ought to be. Thankfulness is not a
precious thing. It is not a speech or a well-composed letter. It is not
segregated from the rest of the year or, ideally, possessed by anyone.

--
*

Tom Poelker
St. Louis. Missouri
USA

/-- Do all the easy nice things you can.
It?s nice to see people smile,
and it?s good practice. --/

*


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/ To
write to the moderators, please email: liturgy-l-owner@...!
Groups Links

From that epitome of theological insight, Parade Magazine, and a Jewish
author, come these insights about Eucharist.  He says "Thanksgiving",
but certainly slipping in the Greek synonym is permitted.


   Making Holiday Traditions Our Own

Jonathan Safran Foer is the best-selling author of "Everything is
Illuminated." His newest book is "Eating Animals."
http://www.parade.com/food/2009/11/22-make-holiday-traditions-your-own.html

In 1949, the first Thanksgiving that my family celebrated in America, a
card table and three folding chairs would have accommodated everyone.
More recently, we've required two dozen mismatched chairs and four
tables of slightly different heights, widths, and trustworthiness,
pushed together and covered in matching cloths. No one is fooled into
thinking this setup is perfect, but it is perfect.My aunt always places
a small pile of popcorn kernels on each plate, which, in the course of
the meal, we transfer to the table as symbols of things we are thankful
for. The ritual happens silently and in one's own good time. Out of the
corner of my eye, I might catch a parent, sibling, or uncle transferring
a kernel. It's impossible not to wonder what he or she is thinking
about. The wondering enriches the ritual: The gratitude is not performed
but shared and, in its mysteriousness, alive.


Thanksgiving is the meal we aspire for other meals to resemble, and the
Thanksgiving table is not a sanctuary from the world but a
representation of our best hope for it. Of the thousand or so meals we
eat every year, Thanksgiving dinner is the one that we try most
earnestly to get right. It holds the hope of being a good meal whose
ingredients, efforts, setting, and consumption are expressions of the
best in us. And it's about transmission. If the table is also a kind of
blackboard, our choices cannot help but be lessons.

. . .

This will be the first year that we celebrate in my home, the first time
I will prepare the food, and the first Thanksgiving meal at which my son
will be old enough to eat the food the rest of us eat. So what will he
eat? And what kinds of conversations will we have? Which rituals will I
perpetuate and which will I dispense with? What will I invent? At stake
when setting the Thanksgiving table is more than the placement of
silverware. To set the table, in this case, is to announce your vision
of how things ought to be.

<http://www.parade.com/food/slideshows/9-dinner-party-savings-tips.html>When
thinking about future Thanksgivings, I find myself returning to past
ones. I return to those pushed-together tables. At the end of every
Thanksgiving dinner, much of what began on top of them ended up beneath
them. The popcorn kernels inevitably scattered, and it was not uncommon,
upon visiting my uncle and aunt's house in the summer, to find---under
the living-room sofa, at the base of a bookshelf---an artifact of
someone's gratitude. It was impossible to know just how old that
thankfulness was.

That is my vision of how things ought to be. Thankfulness is not a
precious thing. It is not a speech or a well-composed letter. It is not
segregated from the rest of the year or, ideally, possessed by anyone.

--
*

Tom Poelker
St. Louis. Missouri
USA

/-- Do all the easy nice things you can.
It?s nice to see people smile,
and it?s good practice. --/

*


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Václav Havel's religion is . . . antithetical to the religion a
"fanatic" clings to, who as Havel once so compellingly put, "without
realizing it, replaces the love of God with the love for his own
religion; the love of truth, freedom and justice with love of an
ideology, doctrine or sect; love of people with love of a project."

Lubomir Martin Ondrasek [in /Sightings/, 11/19/09, from the Martin Marty
Center at the University of Chicago Divinity School,
http://divinity.uchicago.edu/rss/sightings.xml] quotes Václav Havel
[playwright and former President of Czechoslovakia and first President
of the Czech Republic ].

--
*

Tom Poelker
St. Louis. Missouri
USA

/-- Do all the easy nice things you can.
It?s nice to see people smile,
and it?s good practice. --/

*


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, cfortunato58@... wrote:
>
>
>  Honestly, I speak to a lot of young Catholics, and by and large, they seem
very turned off by the banality, and are absolutely starving for something
transcendent, grand and glorious.>>

Very true.  Unfortunately, that's not what they're going to get.

Chris

According to tradition, yes. But I seriously doubt that she left a
certificate of authenticity.



On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 4:55 PM, <priestly@...> wrote:

> But didn't she find it?
>
> The Rev. Fr. Michael T. Hiller
> Phone: 415.468.1001
> Cell: 415.999.8606
> Email: priestly@...
> Website: http://www.hillerleiturgia.com
>
> --- lhwhitaker@... wrote:
>
> From: Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
> To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Justinian's Cross is Refurbished.
> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:43:36 -0500
>
> Naw, she's a woman. The boys on Athos would never accept HER as an
> authority.
>
> Lew
>
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 2:39 PM, <priestly@...> wrote:
>
> > Certified by a certain Helen?
> >
> > The Rev. Fr. Michael T. Hiller
> > Phone: 415.468.1001
> > Cell: 415.999.8606
> > Email: priestly@...
> > Website: http://www.hillerleiturgia.com
> >
> > --- lhwhitaker@... wrote:
> >
> > From: Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
> > To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Justinian's Cross is Refurbished.
> > Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:07:20 -0500
> >
> > Preferably someone with lots of titles and stuff :)
> >
> > L
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 1:56 PM, James <rdrjames@...> wrote:
> >
> > > They come with a certificate, signed by someone, preferably deceased.
> > (G!)
> > > Jim of Olym
> > >
> > > --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > How on earth can relics of the True Cross be "authenticated?"
> > > >
> > > > Lew
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 7:32 PM, James <rdrjames@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Nice and a wonderful reliquary, but possibly no cigar for this. I
> > have
> > > > > heard that the largest 'authenticated' relic of the True Cross
> still
> > > resides
> > > > > at Mt.  Athos.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators,
> please
> > email:
> > > liturgy-l-owner@...! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please
> email:
> > liturgy-l-owner@...! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please
> email:
> > liturgy-l-owner@...! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
write to the moderators, please email:
> liturgy-l-owner@...! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
write to the moderators, please email:
> liturgy-l-owner@...! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

According to tradition, Helena authenticated the true cross from the others
found by laying dead corpses on it until they were vivified.

Mark J. Bliese
Saint Louis, Mo.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of priestly@...
> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 3:55 PM
> To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Justinian's Cross is Refurbished.
>
> But didn't she find it?
>
> The Rev. Fr. Michael T. Hiller
> Phone: 415.468.1001
> Cell: 415.999.8606
> Email: priestly@...
> Website: http://www.hillerleiturgia.com
>
> --- lhwhitaker@... wrote:
>
> From: Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
> To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Justinian's Cross is Refurbished.
> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:43:36 -0500
>
> Naw, she's a woman. The boys on Athos would never accept HER
> as an authority.
>
> Lew
>
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 2:39 PM, <priestly@...> wrote:
>
> > Certified by a certain Helen?
> >
> > The Rev. Fr. Michael T. Hiller
> > Phone: 415.468.1001
> > Cell: 415.999.8606
> > Email: priestly@...
> > Website: http://www.hillerleiturgia.com
> >
> > --- lhwhitaker@... wrote:
> >
> > From: Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
> > To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Justinian's Cross is Refurbished.
> > Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:07:20 -0500
> >
> > Preferably someone with lots of titles and stuff :)
> >
> > L
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 1:56 PM, James <rdrjames@...> wrote:
> >
> > > They come with a certificate, signed by someone,
> preferably deceased.
> > (G!)
> > > Jim of Olym
> > >
> > > --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Lewis Whitaker
> <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > How on earth can relics of the True Cross be "authenticated?"
> > > >
> > > > Lew
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 7:32 PM, James <rdrjames@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Nice and a wonderful reliquary, but possibly no cigar
> for this.
> > > > > I
> > have
> > > > > heard that the largest 'authenticated' relic of the
> True Cross
> > > > > still
> > > resides
> > > > > at Mt.  Athos.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators,
> > please
> > email:
> > > liturgy-l-owner@...! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the
> moderators, please email:
> > liturgy-l-owner@...! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the
> moderators, please email:
> > liturgy-l-owner@...! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/ To write to the
> moderators, please email:
> liturgy-l-owner@...! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/ To write to the
> moderators, please email:
> liturgy-l-owner@...! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

But didn't she find it?

The Rev. Fr. Michael T. Hiller
Phone: 415.468.1001
Cell: 415.999.8606
Email: priestly@...
Website: http://www.hillerleiturgia.com

--- lhwhitaker@... wrote:

From: Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Justinian's Cross is Refurbished.
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:43:36 -0500

Naw, she's a woman. The boys on Athos would never accept HER as an
authority.

Lew

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 2:39 PM, <priestly@...> wrote:

> Certified by a certain Helen?
>
> The Rev. Fr. Michael T. Hiller
> Phone: 415.468.1001
> Cell: 415.999.8606
> Email: priestly@...
> Website: http://www.hillerleiturgia.com
>
> --- lhwhitaker@... wrote:
>
> From: Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
> To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Justinian's Cross is Refurbished.
> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:07:20 -0500
>
> Preferably someone with lots of titles and stuff :)
>
> L
>
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 1:56 PM, James <rdrjames@...> wrote:
>
> > They come with a certificate, signed by someone, preferably deceased.
> (G!)
> > Jim of Olym
> >
> > --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > How on earth can relics of the True Cross be "authenticated?"
> > >
> > > Lew
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 7:32 PM, James <rdrjames@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Nice and a wonderful reliquary, but possibly no cigar for this. I
> have
> > > > heard that the largest 'authenticated' relic of the True Cross still
> > resides
> > > > at Mt.  Athos.
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please
> email:
> > liturgy-l-owner@...! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
write to the moderators, please email:
> liturgy-l-owner@...! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
write to the moderators, please email:
> liturgy-l-owner@...! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/ To
write to the moderators, please email: liturgy-l-owner@...!
Groups Links

Actually, I thought this was primarily interesting because of its status as
a period work of art over and beyond it's usage as a reliquary.   There is
something profound about Byzantine art from this classical period.

As I understand it, Byzantine art and architecture had an enormous influence
on Western art and architecture.


David Strang.







>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Naw, she's a woman. The boys on Athos would never accept HER as an
authority.

Lew

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 2:39 PM, <priestly@...> wrote:

> Certified by a certain Helen?
>
> The Rev. Fr. Michael T. Hiller
> Phone: 415.468.1001
> Cell: 415.999.8606
> Email: priestly@...
> Website: http://www.hillerleiturgia.com
>
> --- lhwhitaker@... wrote:
>
> From: Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
> To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Justinian's Cross is Refurbished.
> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:07:20 -0500
>
> Preferably someone with lots of titles and stuff :)
>
> L
>
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 1:56 PM, James <rdrjames@...> wrote:
>
> > They come with a certificate, signed by someone, preferably deceased.
> (G!)
> > Jim of Olym
> >
> > --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > How on earth can relics of the True Cross be "authenticated?"
> > >
> > > Lew
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 7:32 PM, James <rdrjames@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Nice and a wonderful reliquary, but possibly no cigar for this. I
> have
> > > > heard that the largest 'authenticated' relic of the True Cross still
> > resides
> > > > at Mt.  Athos.
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please
> email:
> > liturgy-l-owner@...! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
write to the moderators, please email:
> liturgy-l-owner@...! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
write to the moderators, please email:
> liturgy-l-owner@...! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Certified by a certain Helen?

The Rev. Fr. Michael T. Hiller
Phone: 415.468.1001
Cell: 415.999.8606
Email: priestly@...
Website: http://www.hillerleiturgia.com

--- lhwhitaker@... wrote:

From: Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Justinian's Cross is Refurbished.
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:07:20 -0500

Preferably someone with lots of titles and stuff :)

L

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 1:56 PM, James <rdrjames@...> wrote:

> They come with a certificate, signed by someone, preferably deceased. (G!)
> Jim of Olym
>
> --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:
> >
> > How on earth can relics of the True Cross be "authenticated?"
> >
> > Lew
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 7:32 PM, James <rdrjames@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Nice and a wonderful reliquary, but possibly no cigar for this. I have
> > > heard that the largest 'authenticated' relic of the True Cross still
> resides
> > > at Mt.  Athos.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
write to the moderators, please email:
> liturgy-l-owner@...! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/ To
write to the moderators, please email: liturgy-l-owner@...!
Groups Links

Preferably someone with lots of titles and stuff :)

L

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 1:56 PM, James <rdrjames@...> wrote:

> They come with a certificate, signed by someone, preferably deceased. (G!)
> Jim of Olym
>
> --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:
> >
> > How on earth can relics of the True Cross be "authenticated?"
> >
> > Lew
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 7:32 PM, James <rdrjames@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Nice and a wonderful reliquary, but possibly no cigar for this. I have
> > > heard that the largest 'authenticated' relic of the True Cross still
> resides
> > > at Mt.  Athos.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
write to the moderators, please email:
> liturgy-l-owner@...! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

They come with a certificate, signed by someone, preferably deceased. (G!)
Jim of Olym

--- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:
>
> How on earth can relics of the True Cross be "authenticated?"
>
> Lew
>
> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 7:32 PM, James <rdrjames@...> wrote:
>
> > Nice and a wonderful reliquary, but possibly no cigar for this. I have
> > heard that the largest 'authenticated' relic of the True Cross still resides
> > at Mt.  Athos.

In Honduras? WOW!

Lew

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 12:00 AM, Michael Thannisch <
mjthannisch@...> wrote:

> Supposedly there are relics of the true cross in altar stones in Honduras.
> One of our churches (Sta. Lucia, La Laguna de la Proteccion, Concepcion del
> Norte, Sta. Barbara).  It was obviously not a stone, but some kind of poured
> material, so I suppose it was possible)
>
> Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach     +Mar Michael Abportus
> mjthannisch@...  Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
> http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/
> http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Joe-Thannisch/1173094868  204
> Sylvan St.  La Porte, TX 77571  281-867-9081
> 832-266-8153 (mobile)
> 281-867-0576 (fax)
>
>
> --- On Thu, 11/19/09, James <rdrjames@...> wrote:
>
> From: James <rdrjames@...>
> Subject: [liturgy-l] Re: Justinian's Cross is Refurbished.
> To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 6:32 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>      Nice and a wonderful reliquary, but possibly no cigar for this. I have
> heard that the largest 'authenticated' relic of the True Cross still resides
> at Mt.  Athos. I can't remember which monastery there, but I know a priest
> who was given a sliver of that relic, which is now in Tacoma, WA, USA.
>
>
>
> Rdr. James
>
> Olympia, WA
>
>
>
> --- In liturgy-l@yahoogrou ps.com, cantor03@... wrote:
>
>
>
> > _http://news. yahoo.com/ s/ap/20091119/ ap_on_en_ ot/eu_vatican_
> restored_ cross_
>
> > (http://news. yahoo.com/ s/ap/20091119/ ap_on_en_ ot/eu_vatican_
> restored_ cross)
>
>
>
> > David Strang.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
write to the moderators, please email:
> liturgy-l-owner@...! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Supposedly there are relics of the true cross in altar stones in Honduras.  One
of our churches (Sta. Lucia, La Laguna de la Proteccion, Concepcion del Norte,
Sta. Barbara).  It was obviously not a stone, but some kind of poured material,
so I suppose it was possible)

Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach     +Mar Michael Abportus  mjthannisch@...
Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham  http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/ 
http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Joe-Thannisch/1173094868  204 Sylvan St. 
La Porte, TX 77571  281-867-9081
832-266-8153 (mobile)
281-867-0576 (fax)


--- On Thu, 11/19/09, James <rdrjames@...> wrote:

From: James <rdrjames@...>
Subject: [liturgy-l] Re: Justinian's Cross is Refurbished.
To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 6:32 PM







 









       Nice and a wonderful reliquary, but possibly no cigar for this. I have
heard that the largest 'authenticated' relic of the True Cross still resides at
Mt.  Athos. I can't remember which monastery there, but I know a priest who was
given a sliver of that relic, which is now in Tacoma, WA, USA.



Rdr. James

Olympia, WA



--- In liturgy-l@yahoogrou ps.com, cantor03@... wrote:



> _http://news. yahoo.com/ s/ap/20091119/ ap_on_en_ ot/eu_vatican_ restored_
cross_

> (http://news. yahoo.com/ s/ap/20091119/ ap_on_en_ ot/eu_vatican_ restored_
cross)



> David Strang.






















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

How on earth can relics of the True Cross be "authenticated?"

Lew

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 7:32 PM, James <rdrjames@...> wrote:

> Nice and a wonderful reliquary, but possibly no cigar for this. I have
> heard that the largest 'authenticated' relic of the True Cross still resides
> at Mt.  Athos. I can't remember which monastery there, but I know a priest
> who was given a sliver of that relic, which is now in Tacoma, WA, USA.
>
> Rdr. James
> Olympia, WA
>
> --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, cantor03@... wrote:
>
> > _
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091119/ap_on_en_ot/eu_vatican_restored_cross_
> > (
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091119/ap_on_en_ot/eu_vatican_restored_cross)
>
> > David Strang.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
write to the moderators, please email:
> liturgy-l-owner@...! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nice and a wonderful reliquary, but possibly no cigar for this. I have heard
that the largest 'authenticated' relic of the True Cross still resides at Mt. 
Athos. I can't remember which monastery there, but I know a priest who was given
a sliver of that relic, which is now in Tacoma, WA, USA.

Rdr. James
Olympia, WA

--- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, cantor03@... wrote:

> _http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091119/ap_on_en_ot/eu_vatican_restored_cross_
> (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091119/ap_on_en_ot/eu_vatican_restored_cross)

> David Strang.

_http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091119/ap_on_en_ot/eu_vatican_restored_cross_
(http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091119/ap_on_en_ot/eu_vatican_restored_cross)




David Strang.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think this NCR article accurately describes a major problem behind the
actual liturgical issues in the RCC.
http://ncronline.org/news/cardinal-george-and-politics-liturgy

--
*

Tom Poelker
St. Louis. Missouri
USA

/-- Do all the easy nice things you can.
It?s nice to see people smile,
and it?s good practice. --/

*


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tom and others, you might find some help from the Theological Book
Network http://www.theologicalbooknetwork.org/. They would know if they
have demand for your uncle's books or other surplus theological books.
There are links on the web site for contact.

Tom Poelker wrote:
> My Reverend Monsignor uncle died earlier this year at age 91.
> The executers would rather give away his books than trash them.
> He remained a conservative Roman Catholic throughout his life and his
> library reflects that.
> There are also multiple new books in original wrappers or unbroken
> bindings which he perhaps intended as eventual gifts, several bibles and
> more than a dozen of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
> The religious books have been separated from all other kinds of books.
>
> The estate would not want to pay shipping, but if there is any way to
> arrange to deliver them from Jefferson City, Missouri, USA to anyone who
> would like to have either just the new books, which are all in one
> place, or all of the religious books, or all of the books, or all of the
> non-religious [including a lot of old and very conservative [as in
> anti-communist] political books, I would be willing to make arrangements
> or might even be able to deliver many box loads in my van.
>
> I seem to recall African Catholic seminaries looking for theology books
> in recent years, but I also know that shipping arrangements need to be
> made carefully since book postal rates have risen extremely in recent years.
>
> Any advice would be appreciated, either on list or directly to me at
> TomPoelke@...
>

--
Ron Miller (The Rev. Ronald H.) Baltimore, MD
Every individual will receive from God the amount of indulgence he has himself
given to his neighbor.
            Augustine, quoted by Defensor Grammaticus

My Reverend Monsignor uncle died earlier this year at age 91.
The executers would rather give away his books than trash them.
He remained a conservative Roman Catholic throughout his life and his
library reflects that.
There are also multiple new books in original wrappers or unbroken
bindings which he perhaps intended as eventual gifts, several bibles and
more than a dozen of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
The religious books have been separated from all other kinds of books.

The estate would not want to pay shipping, but if there is any way to
arrange to deliver them from Jefferson City, Missouri, USA to anyone who
would like to have either just the new books, which are all in one
place, or all of the religious books, or all of the books, or all of the
non-religious [including a lot of old and very conservative [as in
anti-communist] political books, I would be willing to make arrangements
or might even be able to deliver many box loads in my van.

I seem to recall African Catholic seminaries looking for theology books
in recent years, but I also know that shipping arrangements need to be
made carefully since book postal rates have risen extremely in recent years.

Any advice would be appreciated, either on list or directly to me at
TomPoelke@...
--
*

Tom Poelker
St. Louis. Missouri
USA

/-- Do all the easy nice things you can.
It?s nice to see people smile,
and it?s good practice. --/

*


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ok, folks, let's move on. Back to things liturgical.
John Dornheim
List monitor



On Nov 12, 2009, at 10:34 PM, dlewisaao@... wrote:

> Those of us who consider ourselves "mainstream Anglo-Catholics" find
> this
> allegation untrue and offensive.
>
> David
>
>
> In a message dated 11/12/2009 10:12:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> lhwhitaker@... writes:
>
> So in order to be a mainstream (and non-"liberal") Anglo Catholic
> you have
> to post a "Gays Not Welcome" sign?
>
> Sad, but perhaps true.
>
> Lew
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]