Here's an out-of-the-ordinary question for you.  Our rector regularly
recites
a
prayer from the Sarum Primer at the close of the weekly Eucharist before
the
post-communion blessing, and someone has asked me if I can find them a
copy
of
the Sarum Primer.  They have apparently researched it and cannot find
one.

Is there a print source for this old material?  Is it
(hope-against-hope)
available electronically?  Thanks in advance for whatever assistance you
can
offer!


Douglas,

I don't think the Sarum Primer is available in a modern edition.

If you have a university library with a good medieval collection you will
find a selection of prymer materials printed in the series, The Early
English Text Society (EETS).  If I recall, there are two volumes: "The
Lay-Folks Mass Book" and "The Lay-Folks Prayer Book" (?)

Indispensable reading for anyone interested in the texts which were in the
background of the first Prayer Books.  Also a good perspective on the depth
of popular devotion in the pre-Reformation period, a period which is
unfairly maligned.


Doug Cowling
____________________________________________________________
Director of Music & Liturgical Arts
Church of the Messiah
Toronto

He may be reading the prayer "From the Sarum Primer" in the Saint
Augustine's Prayer Book (published by the Order of the Holy Cross), page 30:

God be in my head, and in my understanding;
God be in my eyes, and in my looking;
God be in my mouth, and in my speaking;
God be in my heart, and in my thinking;
God be at my end, and at my departing.

Ormonde Plater
oplater@...

The star tenor of the Latin Rite polyphonic choir and schola has been making
use of one of those sites featuring polyphonic Mass settings that are in the
public domain and can be downloaded.  He has recently discovered a
Victoria/Vittoria Mass on this site which is based on the Orbis Factor
Chant Ordinary.  This AM he said that the music was quite incomplete, and
without warning would suggest that the plainsong Orbis Factor should be
substituted to fill in the missing sections.

He wondered [and I with him] if there was any custom of writing Mass settings
in this manner, and depending on a skilled and trained schola to alternate
quickly between plainsong and polyphony.  This is probably what the local
choir/schola will do with it, once he works up some copies.

There is, of course, the possibility that parts of the polyphonic Ordinary are
simply missing/lost for one reason or another.

Any thoughts from listmembers?

David Strang.

Whoops!

Sorry; I meant to post this to the Anglican Music List.

David Strang.

This was one of the usual ways of singing "Missa Figuraliter" (more-parts
polyphonic masses) within the Renaissance era, especially for
not-so-elaborate-and-long masses. You will even find a lot of English masses
from the 16th century lacking the Kyrie and parts of the Credo, examples are the
"Western Wynde" masses by John Taverner and two of his disciples.
The practice is very similar to the 17th century French Organ masses. And the
use is in German named "Alternatimpraxis" - it has even been used for
congregational hymns.

As for solemn Holy Office, there are a lot of polyphonic versicles over a
Gregorian plain-chant for use alternatim with the actual tonus psalmi.

Hopefully this will be a help for the re-institution of an ancient practice,
which has nothing to do with Franz Schubert omitting parts of the Mass Ordinary
which he didnt understand - or like. (Or were opposite to the enlightened
bourgeousy of his time.)

In Christ
Mar Johannes Ephrem
(Rt. Rev.Trond H.F.Kverno, Professor of Church music)
APOSTOLIC ORTHODOX CATHOLIC CHURCH IN EUROPE
Diocese of The Holy Resurrection
Ensrudveien 44
N 2750 GRAN
Norway

----- Original Message -----
From: <cantor03@...>
To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 10:38 PM
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Polyphony Question.


>
> The star tenor of the Latin Rite polyphonic choir and schola has been making
> use of one of those sites featuring polyphonic Mass settings that are in the
> public domain and can be downloaded.  He has recently discovered a
> Victoria/Vittoria Mass on this site which is based on the Orbis Factor
> Chant Ordinary.  This AM he said that the music was quite incomplete, and
> without warning would suggest that the plainsong Orbis Factor should be
> substituted to fill in the missing sections.
>
> He wondered [and I with him] if there was any custom of writing Mass settings
> in this manner, and depending on a skilled and trained schola to alternate
> quickly between plainsong and polyphony.  This is probably what the local
> choir/schola will do with it, once he works up some copies.
>
> There is, of course, the possibility that parts of the polyphonic Ordinary are
> simply missing/lost for one reason or another.
>
> Any thoughts from listmembers?
>
> David Strang.
>
> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> liturgy-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> To write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
> liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

In a message dated 11/1/03 6:29:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
mar.johannes.ephrem@... writes:

<<
  In Christ
  Mar Johannes Ephrem
  (Rt. Rev.Trond H.F.Kverno, Professor of Church music)
  APOSTOLIC ORTHODOX CATHOLIC CHURCH IN EUROPE
  Diocese of The Holy Resurrection
  Ensrudveien 44
  N 2750 GRAN
  Norway
   >>

Takse matten!

David Strang.

Greetings group,

Shane here.  Just wanted to post a question re. All Souls Day.  I
know All Souls Day is a Latin rite observance and my question deals
with only the Latin (or Roman) rite.  I doubt Reformation churches
kept All Souls day because it deals with Purgatory and praying for
the dead.  The question is:  how many pastors use black vestments
(which are traditional and are permitted) on this day.  After Vatican
II black vestments were retained as an option at Requiums and on All
Souls day, Good Friday became red.

In a message dated 11/2/03 9:59:37 AM Eastern Standard Time,
dmand7@... writes:

<<
  Shane here.  Just wanted to post a question re. All Souls Day.  I
  know All Souls Day is a Latin rite observance and my question deals
  with only the Latin (or Roman) rite.  I doubt Reformation churches
  kept All Souls day because it deals with Purgatory and praying for
  the dead.  The question is:  how many pastors use black vestments
  (which are traditional and are permitted) on this day.  After Vatican
  II black vestments were retained as an option at Requiems and on All
  Souls day, Good Friday became red.
   >>

Only the Tridentine Rite [Indult and parishes staffed by the FSSP] retain
black vestments for All Souls Day.  The Roman Catholic New Rite
substitutes white vestments for Requiems/All Souls Day, and the
liturgy is "of the Resurrection."

However, with a Church as large as the Roman Catholic, I'm sure
there are exceptions here and there.

Locally, the Tridentine parish has transferred All Souls to tomorrow,
3rd November, while in the USA, the RCC New Rite has replaced the Sunday
in Ordinary Time with the observance of All Souls Day today, 2nd Nov.

David Strang.

> Only the Tridentine Rite [Indult and parishes staffed by the FSSP] retain
> black vestments for All Souls Day.  The Roman Catholic New Rite
> substitutes white vestments for Requiems/All Souls Day, and the
> liturgy is "of the Resurrection."
>
How widespread is the practice of using white?  Is it really required by the
new rite, or just in the US.  In England purple is common for requiems,
white & black are also to be seen.  Even if it is thought appropriate to use
white for funerals (personal I think this enforces popular notions of
"instant canonisation" and avoids any concept of penitance let alone
purgatory) I can see no justification for white on all Souls' Day.  Surely
the observance of All Souls' in the Roman Rite is dependant upon the
existence of Purgatory and is by nature penitential??

Within the RC Diocese of Brentwood, UK, the ordo gives the choices for All
Souls Day (Nov 3) as only purple or black.  No mention of white.  The
preface of Christian Death is to be used and readings from those for Masses
for the Dead in the Roman Lectionary.  Three Masses per priest are allowed
in accordance with the Apostolic Constitution of 10 August 1915.  One Mass
may be for a particular intention (with stipend) and the other two are for
a) all the faithful departed and b) for the intentions of the Pope (without
stipend).

Douglas

-------Original Message-------

From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
Date: 02 November 2003 16:08:40
To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] All Souls Day

In a message dated 11/2/03 9:59:37 AM Eastern Standard Time,
dmand7@... writes:

<<
Shane here. Just wanted to post a question re. All Souls Day. I
know All Souls Day is a Latin rite observance and my question deals
with only the Latin (or Roman) rite. I doubt Reformation churches
kept All Souls day because it deals with Purgatory and praying for
the dead. The question is: how many pastors use black vestments
(which are traditional and are permitted) on this day. After Vatican
II black vestments were retained as an option at Requiems and on All
Souls day, Good Friday became red.
>>

Only the Tridentine Rite [Indult and parishes staffed by the FSSP] retain
black vestments for All Souls Day. The Roman Catholic New Rite
substitutes white vestments for Requiems/All Souls Day, and the
liturgy is "of the Resurrection."

However, with a Church as large as the Roman Catholic, I'm sure
there are exceptions here and there.

Locally, the Tridentine parish has transferred All Souls to tomorrow,
3rd November, while in the USA, the RCC New Rite has replaced the Sunday
in Ordinary Time with the observance of All Souls Day today, 2nd Nov.

David Strang.


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.

In a message dated 11/2/03 11:45:37 AM Eastern Standard Time,
d.a.waller@... writes:

<< How widespread is the practice of using white?  >>

I should qualify by stating that this applies to the Roman Catholic Church
in the USA.  As far as I know, it's pretty universal here.

It's also the norm in the Episcopal Church USA, though there again,
some of the flagship Anglocatholic parishes still use black vestments.

David Strang.

In a message dated 11/2/03 11:52:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
douglas@... writes:

<< Within the RC Diocese of Brentwood, UK, the ordo gives the choices for All
  Souls Day (Nov 3) as only purple or black.  No mention of white. >>

Is this also true for Requiems?

DS.

>Only the Tridentine Rite [Indult and parishes staffed by the FSSP] retain
>black vestments for All Souls Day.  The Roman Catholic New Rite
>substitutes white vestments for Requiems/All Souls Day, and the
>liturgy is "of the Resurrection."


Actually, black is retained as for Requiem Masses  in the current legislation:

GIRM 346 "e) Color niger adhiberi potest, ubi mos est, in Missis defunctorum."

In the United States:

"e. Besides violet, white or black vestments may be worn at funeral
services and at other Offices and Masses for the Dead in the Dioceses of
the United States of America."

Perhaps white is more common, but I certainly see black used as well. If
white is more popular these days, it reflects current liturgical and
perhaps theological fashion, not a change in rite.  I would personally
prefer black be used for my own funeral.

thomas

In a message dated 11/2/03 12:11:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
thomas@... writes:

<<
  Perhaps white is more common, but I certainly see black used as well. If
  white is more popular these days, it reflects current liturgical and
  perhaps theological fashion, not a change in rite.  I would personally
  prefer black be used for my own funeral.

  thomas >>

While I would agree with these sentiments, I have not, in the past
twenty years, seen black vestments in the RCC in America outside
of the Tridentine Rite [which I will be singing tomorrow].

In fact, I'd venture a guess that the overwhelming majority of RC parishes
in the USA DO NOT OWN black vestments at all.  Of course, they
all have violet vestments, but they do not choose to wear them for
funerals.

I sang one New Rite Mass last night, and one this morning, and both
parishes used white vestments, AND I know they do not have any black
vestments to wear even if they wanted to.

I have sung many private Requiems here in the Eastern USA and in the
Midwest USA, and the clergy have used white vestments exclusively.

In the Episcopal Church USA, I have even seen gold vestments for
Requiems.  Such were used for a splendid Requiem for my chant teacher,
the late Mason Martens, at Saint Luke in the Field, in lower Manhattan a
few years ago.

However, with a Church as large as the Roman Catholic Church, there
are undoubtedly variations, as I have pointed out.

David Strang.

on 11/2/03 11:17 AM, scottknitter@... at scottknitter@... wrote:

> The friars on EWTN (RC network) did an All Souls Mass this morning in
> purple vestments.  I would have expected black or white.
>
> In any case, the colour of their vestments always clashes terribly
> with their brown hoods.

The last time that All Souls fell on a Sunday, the pope wore purple
vestments.  Black vestments on a Sunday would be a horrific perversion of
tradition.  Did the tridenistas use purple taody?


Doug Cowling
____________________________________________________________
Director of Music & Liturgical Arts
Church of the Messiah
Toronto

In a message dated 11/2/2003 11:57:33 AM Eastern Standard Time,
cantor03@... writes:
It's also the norm in the Episcopal Church USA, though there again,
some of the flagship Anglocatholic parishes still use black vestments.

St Paul's K Street DC uses black vestments for All Souls' Day, for the
monthly parish requiems and for funeral Masses when desired (option: white or, I
would tink, violet).

David Lewis


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 11/2/2003 12:38:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
cantor03@... writes:
While I would agree with these sentiments, I have not, in the past
twenty years, seen black vestments in the RCC in America outside
of the Tridentine Rite [which I will be singing tomorrow].

Try St Catherine of Siena in Great Falls, VA which uses black vestments (and
birettas) and is not Tridentine (their principal Sunday mass is a novus ordo
solemn mass in Latin, made to look fairly Tridentine per the pastor).

David Lewis


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The diocesan ordo is silent so GIRM rules.

Douglas

-------Original Message-------

From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
Date: 02 November 2003 16:59:04
To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] All Souls Day

In a message dated 11/2/03 11:52:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
douglas@... writes:

<< Within the RC Diocese of Brentwood, UK, the ordo gives the choices for
All
   Souls Day (Nov 3) as only purple or black. No mention of white. >>

Is this also true for Requiems?

DS.

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.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 2 Nov 2003 at 14:35, dlewisaao@... wrote:

> St Paul's K Street DC uses black vestments for All Souls' Day, for the
> monthly parish requiems and for funeral Masses when desired (option: white
> or, I would tink, violet).

Black vestments tomorrow night at Ascension, Chicago.  Funerals can
have white or black vestments depending on the wishes of the deceased
or family.

--
Scott Knitter  -  mailto:scottknitter@...  -  Chicago USA

At Saint Francis, this Sunday, we observed All Saints with a new Mass
commissioned by the congregation and composed by our Director of Music,
J. Wingate Greathouse.  It was a rousing success, and if your
interested in looking at it, there is a downloadable .pdf file at
http://www.st-francis-lutheran.org.  Just go to the Christian worship
and spirituality session and then click on "Rota" and scroll to the
bottom of the page.

Instead of the offertory, the mass uses the Cherubic Hymn from the
Liturgy of Saint James.  I was wondering if there were others who had
used this text (other than the hymn, "Let all Mortal Flesh") in
liturgical worship.

The Rev. Mr. Michael T. Hiller
Associate Pastor, Saint Francis Lutheran Church
415.468.1001 (home)
650.723.8921 (work)
mailto:priestly@...
http://www.st-francis-lutheran.org

In a message dated 11/2/03 2:37:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
dlewisaao@... writes:

<<
  Try St Catherine of Siena in Great Falls, VA which uses black vestments (and
  birettas) and is not Tridentine (their principal Sunday mass is a novus ordo
  solemn mass in Latin, made to look fairly Tridentine per the pastor).
   >>

They do the same at the famous Saint Agnes, Saint Paul, Minnesota, USA,
the only parish in the USA to my knowledge featuring the great orchestral
Masses on a regular basis for much of the liturgical year.

David Strang.

I was looking around the internet for some background material for
some teaching I'm doing and found some articles in Adoremus that
might be grist for this particular mill:

I was looking for stuff on church music for the next LPM session and
found these articles on the musician in Catholic Worship, there's
some good stuff:

Banish the Soloists-Let the People Sing

http://www.adoremus.org/0703Soloists.html

Where Have All the Organists Gone?

http://www.adoremus.org/0903Organists.html

Bells, Whistles, Guitars, and Tamborines

http://www.adoremus.org/1003Music.html

Bob

+ + + + + + + + + + +
It isn't that they can't see the solution.
It is that they can't see the problem.
-----G.K. Chesterton

Pastor Robert White
Christ the Redeemer Lutheran Church (ELCA)
863 Silliman Ave.
Erie, PA USA 16511-2060
814-899-3264
email: rwhite@...
church: christredeemer@...

Interesting articles, and she has some very good points.

However, her church situation would seem very unusual for
most Roman Catholic parishes: she appears to have ONE liturgy
per weekend, and that liturgy has a choir.

In her article about cantors she avoids the issue of the multiplicity
of liturgies in most RCC on a weekend.  For example, the 1,400 family
parish here in my valley has FIVE Masses on a weekend, with a small
choir present at one Mass.  The next parish up the mountain, with
2,400 families, has SEVEN Masses per weekend, and the choir sings
one liturgy.

Of course it would be ideal to have a choir present to lead the
congregation at all liturgies.  On a practical level, it isn't possible
in the average Roman Catholic parish in the USA.

David Strang.

David

But, if I may ask, why does the RCC congregation NEED a cantor or a
choir to lead congregational singing?  We Lutherans have been doing it
quite well for as long as I can remember.

Now, I am NOT suggesting that we don't need cantors and choirs (we have
both at APLC, actually).  At our 8:30 service, there is normally no
choir, and the assisting ministers (generally lay persons) lead the
Kyrie, psalm/antiphon, etc.  If the AM is not musically-gifted (and we
have some), then the congregation's cantor or I or another member of the
assembly will lead those parts.

I have been in RCC congregations more in the past year than can count,
and I have found the amplified voice of the cantor to be a distraction
and not encouraging for corporate participation.  An un-amplified cantor
might work better, if needed, in most cases.

Of course, I also found that I was often the only the "pew-sitting
schlum" actually singing, too, but that's another issue.

Art

Pastor Arthur F. Hebbeler III, STS
The Evangelical Lutheran Church of the Abiding Presence
Beltsville, Maryland

Come Share the Spirit of the Abiding Presence!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cantor03@... [mailto:cantor03@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 6:18 AM
> To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Something to Read
>
>
> Interesting articles, and she has some very good points.
>
> However, her church situation would seem very unusual for
> most Roman Catholic parishes: she appears to have ONE liturgy
> per weekend, and that liturgy has a choir.
>
> In her article about cantors she avoids the issue of the multiplicity
> of liturgies in most RCC on a weekend.  For example, the 1,400 family
> parish here in my valley has FIVE Masses on a weekend, with a small
> choir present at one Mass.  The next parish up the mountain, with
> 2,400 families, has SEVEN Masses per weekend, and the choir sings
> one liturgy.
>
> Of course it would be ideal to have a choir present to lead the
> congregation at all liturgies.  On a practical level, it isn't
possible
> in the average Roman Catholic parish in the USA.
>
> David Strang.
>
> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> liturgy-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> To write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
> liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

RC parishes might do just fine without an amplified cantor if
an effort were made to have a music ministry of strong
singers who participate within the congregation,
strengthening the singing as a whole.  If a choir couldn't be
supported at all Masses, perhaps parishioners could be
encouraged to sign up as leaders within the congregation and
would review and practice the hymns and service music ahead
of time and then sit either in the gallery or in the pews, to
bolster everyone's participation.

Or sensitive organ accompaniment can do the trick, assisted
by a few strong singers in the gallery so that at all times a
confident set of voices can be heard and relied upon.
______________________________________
Scott Knitter, Chicago USA
mailto:scottknitter@...

In a message dated 11/2/03 11:12:12 AM Central Standard Time,
thomas@... writes:
Perhaps white is more common, but I certainly see black used as well. If
white is more popular these days, it reflects current liturgical and
perhaps theological fashion, not a change in rite.  I would personally
prefer black be used for my own funeral.
Lutheran practice is to always use the color of the day or season for
weddings and funerals.  So one has to be very careful about when one gets
marries or
dies.  :)

FCSenn


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

on 11/4/03 5:29 PM, fcsenn@... at fcsenn@... wrote:

> Lutheran practice is to always use the color of the day or season for
> weddings and funerals.  So one has to be very careful about when one gets
> marries or
> dies.  :)

When I did some research on the Lutheran funeral of J.S. Bach in 17750, I
was suprised to see that the rite was wholly domestic, consisting of the
choir gathering at the deceased house and escorting the coffin to the grave.
There was no church service with the body, except in the case of royal and
municipal worthies who were commemorated with a cantata or motet in the
following Sunday's Vespers.

When did Lutheran practice change?:  I assume all Lutherans are now buried
from the church.


Doug Cowling
____________________________________________________________
Director of Music & Liturgical Arts
Church of the Messiah
Toronto

On 4 Nov 2003 at 17:37, Douglas Cowling wrote:

> When did Lutheran practice change?:  I assume all Lutherans are now
> buried from the church.

Would that it were so. In the parishes I have served in Central and
Western Pennsylvania, it has taken hard work to move funerals of even
the most faithful out of the funeral parlor and into the church. I
suspect that here in Erie (although not in my parish), the majority
of Lutheran funerals are not in the church.

Bob

+ + + + + + + + + + +
The Christian Faith has not been tried and found wanting.
It has been found difficult and left untried.
-----G. K. Chesterton

Pastor Robert White
Christ the Redeemer Lutheran Church (ELCA)
863 Silliman Ave.
Erie, PA USA 16511-2060
814-899-3264
email: rwhite@...
church: christredeemer@...

In a message dated 11/4/03 1:13:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ahebbeler@... writes:

<< David

  But, if I may ask, why does the RCC congregation NEED a cantor or a
  choir to lead congregational singing?  We Lutherans have been doing it
  quite well for as long as I can remember.
   >>

They don't, but they've painted themselves into a corner.   You must
remember that in the USA, the RCC has been traditionally dominated
by the Irish, so much so that the then Irish bishops managed to alienate
other ethnic groups enough to form much of (1) The Orthodox Church
in America [former Byzantine Rite Catholics, mostly] plus a couple other
related Orthodox jurisdictions, AND the (2) Polish National Catholic Church.
Much of that history took place right here in the RC Diocese of Scranton.

The Irish sing wonderfully in pubs.  They don't have a tradition of singing
in church much.  At the start of the Vatican-2 reforms they reached out in
desperation to cantors/leaders of song.  The Catholic music publishers jumped
into the vacuum to produce tons of music aimed at pleasing the cantors.
Much of this musical production is too difficult to be sung by any assembly,
let alone the Irish dominated parishes where congregational singing was very
weak.

Now, all the major music sources REQUIRE a cantor or choir or both for
execution.  It's a done deal.  There would have to be a major reform of
the music aids/hymnals in order to jettison this dependency, and
Roman Catholic priests historically hate to spend money on new
hymnals.

OTOH, Roman Catholic parishes from other traditions: German, Slavic,
and even French, sing much better.  The local red stone German gothic
pile with the archetypical 225' steeple, has a singing congregation which
regards cantors with great suspicion.

Goodness knows, when I have attended my favorite RCC in the Rhine
Gorge [Liebfrauenkirche at Oberwesel/Rhein] they need no cantors.
They raise the roof [quadripartite/80'] with their singing....Ditto
Frauenkirche
on the main square at Nuremberg....and they have pipe organs that would
turn most Lutheran Churches green with envy.

David Strang.

>>Lutheran practice is to always use the color of the day or season for
>>weddings and funerals.  So one has to be very careful about when one gets
>>marries or
>>dies.  :)
>>
>>
I have had serious conversations with my colleagues about this issue.  I
have no problem with the color of the day for a wedding.   it is a
"movable" feast, after all.  However, a funeral is a service based on
the resurrection of Jesus.  It is not simply a celebration of a person's
life, but a celebration of Jesus' resurrection, which enables the rest
of humanity to be raised from  the dead, as Jesus is "the first fruits
of them that sleep."  A service of resurrection should be white,
regardless of the other circumstances.

Ted Lorah