Lutherans seem to  use the title regularly for the head of a parish.  Does
this practice date to Luther?  Was it a new practice or an extension of
prior custom?

thomas


>A question to the list regarding terminology;
>
>How long has the name "pastor", or its equivalent in Latin or other
>languages, been applied to parish priests?
>
>thomas

In a message dated 10/1/2003 9:58:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
thomas@... writes:
Lutherans seem to  use the title regularly for the head of a parish.  Does
this practice date to Luther?  Was it a new practice or an extension of
prior custom?

Roman Catholics do the same, which I suspect is where the Lutherans got the
term, as do Orthodox, Methodists, Baptists and I believe pretty much everyone
except Anglicans.

David Lewis
DLewisAAO@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>Roman Catholics do the same, which I suspect is where the Lutherans got the
>term, as do Orthodox, Methodists, Baptists and I believe pretty much everyone
>except Anglicans.


we do now, at least in English speaking areas.  I am not sure when we
started to do so though.

thomas

In a message dated 10/1/2003 10:08:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
thomas@... writes:
we do now, at least in English speaking areas.  I am not sure when we
started to do so though.


Is this per changes in canon law or by popular usage in areas where people
being evangelized are from an Evangelical background?  My impression is that the
term "pastor" is used in the latter instance (i.e., Evangelical/Charismatic
churches) rather than per the former; at least that appears to be the case in
Virginia.

David Lewis
DLewisAAO@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The term "pastor" is not in common usage in the RC Church in the UK but the
title "Parish Priest" is.  In the Anglican Church in the UK the title would
be "Vicar" or "Rector".

Douglas
douglas@...

-------Original Message-------

From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
Date: 01 October 2003 15:01:32
To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Pastors

In a message dated 10/1/2003 9:58:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
thomas@... writes:
Lutherans seem to use the title regularly for the head of a parish. Does
this practice date to Luther? Was it a new practice or an extension of
prior custom?

Roman Catholics do the same, which I suspect is where the Lutherans got the
term, as do Orthodox, Methodists, Baptists and I believe pretty much
everyone
except Anglicans.

David Lewis
DLewisAAO@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
liturgy-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 04:04 PM 10/1/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>The term "pastor" is not in common usage in the RC Church in the UK but the
>title "Parish Priest" is.  In the Anglican Church in the UK the title would
>be "Vicar" or "Rector".
>
>Douglas
>douglas@...
>


My favorite was always "irremovable rector" used in the pre-Vatican II Roman
Catholic Church in the U.S.  Must have been the Church's equivalent of tenure
for academics.

                                          Ray Gadke

Our congregation celebrates its 100th Anniversary in 2004.  A member
of the congregation has volunteered to carve a statue of St. Matthew
as a gift.  He carved a statue of St. John the Baptist for his
cousin's church and it was truly magnificent.
I am having difficulty finding pictures of St. Matthew's statuary.
He would like to have some pictures to refer to as he makes his
initial sketches for the project.
I find plenty of icons (2 dimensional) but very few pictures of
statuary.
If anyone has any leads that I might be able to investigate, please
email me directly @ mamilne@....

>>we do now, at least in English speaking areas.  I am not sure when we
>>started to do so though.

In the US, in most dioceses the title is a matter of canon law. "Rector" is
the term used for the head priest in a parish, "Vicar" in a mission. "Curate"
is an assistant.

There are places which use "pastor", "associate rector/pastor", etc., but
it's not that common.

In my experience, Lutheran's tend to use "Pastor" as the pastor's first name
more than as a title.
The common speech pattern is "Pastor said..." rather than "The Pastor said..."

Bob Gross

>My favorite was always "irremovable rector" used in the pre-Vatican II Roman
>Catholic Church in the U.S.  Must have been the Church's equivalent of tenure
>for academics.

In the US irremovable rectors were created to give them the properties of
parish priests.  Up until recently, for a number of historical and legal
reasons, the US did not have very many canonically erected parishes.  They
went by that name in common usage, and acted like parishes, but were not
true parishes in the canoncial sense.  The US bishops had been
urged/directed/cajoled to correct this situation, and, since it was often
difficult to do so in the full canonical sense, they opted, as a
transition, to make US "parishes" as much a functional equivalent to a true
parish as possible.  On characteristic of a true parish was (at the time)
the stability of the priest in charge/pastor/rector/whatever you call
him.  Thus, an irremovable rector ended up serving, in effect, as a
"pastor" (parochus).


The law and the approach to both parishes and pastors/parochis has been
greatly revised.

thomas

Some Anglican parishes where there are differing views and
practices on whether to call a female priest "Mother" or not
have compromised by calling all of their priests "Pastor
N."  My previous parish had some people calling male
priests "Father N." but female priests by their first names;
others called all the priests by first names.  So at least
the acolyte director started referring to the female rector
as Pastor Stacey (that's her surname) when speaking to his
acolytes.  Apparently she agreed to that as an alternative.
In previous parishes she had been called "Mother."

It's also seen as a nod toward common practice with ELCA
Lutherans.
______________________________________
Scott Knitter, Chicago USA
mailto:scottknitter@...

In the UK, Roman Catholic priests would be referred to as Parish Priests
rather than Pastor.

Chris McElroy


----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas R. Jackson" <thomas@...>
To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 10:04 AM
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Pastors


>
> >Roman Catholics do the same, which I suspect is where the Lutherans got
the
> >term, as do Orthodox, Methodists, Baptists and I believe pretty much
everyone
> >except Anglicans.
>
>
> we do now, at least in English speaking areas.  I am not sure when we
> started to do so though.
>
> thomas
>
>
> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> liturgy-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> To write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
> liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
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>
>

on 10/1/03 10:01 AM, dlewisaao@... at dlewisaao@... wrote:

> Roman Catholics do the same, which I suspect is where the Lutherans got the
> term, as do Orthodox, Methodists, Baptists and I believe pretty much everyone
> except Anglicans.
>
> David Lewis


The Diocese of Toronto, in order to break the old parson's freehold, no
longer institutes "rectors".  We have to formally refer to parish priests as
"Incumbents."


Doug Cowling
____________________________________________________________
Director of Music & Liturgical Arts
Church of the Messiah
Toronto

In German the Lutherans continued to use the word priest (still do)

Shalom in Yeshua Ha Moshiach

Michael Joe Thannisch
mjthan@...
ttp://episcopalanglicanresources.com
www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ridge/4120/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas R. Jackson" <thomas@...>
To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 8:57 AM
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Pastors


> Lutherans seem to  use the title regularly for the head of a parish.  Does
> this practice date to Luther?  Was it a new practice or an extension of
> prior custom?
>
> thomas
>
>
> >A question to the list regarding terminology;
> >
> >How long has the name "pastor", or its equivalent in Latin or other
> >languages, been applied to parish priests?
> >
> >thomas
>
>
>
>
> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> liturgy-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> To write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
> liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Quite right.  Most churches here in Texas refer to their minister as their
priest or rector, but only the most evangelical use the term pastor
regularly.  I know one where the rector is the chief pastor, but I have
trouble with that term for I think it is reserved to the Bishop.


Shalom in Yeshua Ha Moshiach

Michael Joe Thannisch
mjthan@...
http://episcopalanglicanresources.com
www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ridge/4120/
----- Original Message -----
From: <dlewisaao@...>
To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Pastors


> In a message dated 10/1/2003 10:08:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> thomas@... writes:
> we do now, at least in English speaking areas.  I am not sure when we
> started to do so though.
>
>
> Is this per changes in canon law or by popular usage in areas where people
> being evangelized are from an Evangelical background?  My impression is
that the
> term "pastor" is used in the latter instance (i.e.,
Evangelical/Charismatic
> churches) rather than per the former; at least that appears to be the case
in
> Virginia.
>
> David Lewis
> DLewisAAO@...
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> liturgy-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> To write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
> liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

>Quite right.  Most churches here in Texas refer to their minister as their
>priest or rector, but only the most evangelical use the term pastor
>regularly.  I know one where the rector is the chief pastor, but I have
>trouble with that term for I think it is reserved to the Bishop.

This is part of what precipitated my inquiry, actually.  I was looking over
an early nineteenth century canonical work on the parish.  It has a very
lengthy section on why parochis, the proper title of those who are in
charge of parishes, are not pastors, even in a secondary sense and
shouldn't be called pastors, which the author argued, should be reserved to
bishops.  While this wasn't a new idea to me, I was surprised to see it
argued so strenuously in a canonical work of that period.

The 1917 Code of Canon Law, the Latin Church's first codification of its
law, does specify parochis as being pastors (canon 216).  The Second
Vatican Council also says this.  I don't know whether this represents a
true change of thought, or  perhaps an official adaptation of one side of a
long standing argument.

The apparent arguments for the title are also interesting, but even further
afield from liturgy.

thomas

That is interesting.   It probably came from the evangelicals, but
definately not the Lutherans.  The Lutherans picked it up here in English,
because even the German Speaking Lutherans that I knew growing up did not
use the word Pastor in German, but the German word for priest.

Shalom in Yeshua Ha Moshiach

Michael Joe Thannisch
mjthan@...
http://episcopalanglicanresources.com
www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ridge/4120/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas R. Jackson" <thomas@...>
To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 11:52 PM
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Pastors


>
> >Quite right.  Most churches here in Texas refer to their minister as
their
> >priest or rector, but only the most evangelical use the term pastor
> >regularly.  I know one where the rector is the chief pastor, but I have
> >trouble with that term for I think it is reserved to the Bishop.
>
> This is part of what precipitated my inquiry, actually.  I was looking
over
> an early nineteenth century canonical work on the parish.  It has a very
> lengthy section on why parochis, the proper title of those who are in
> charge of parishes, are not pastors, even in a secondary sense and
> shouldn't be called pastors, which the author argued, should be reserved
to
> bishops.  While this wasn't a new idea to me, I was surprised to see it
> argued so strenuously in a canonical work of that period.
>
> The 1917 Code of Canon Law, the Latin Church's first codification of its
> law, does specify parochis as being pastors (canon 216).  The Second
> Vatican Council also says this.  I don't know whether this represents a
> true change of thought, or  perhaps an official adaptation of one side of
a
> long standing argument.
>
> The apparent arguments for the title are also interesting, but even
further
> afield from liturgy.
>
> thomas
>
>
> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> liturgy-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> To write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
> liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

At 10/1/2003 -0500 11:21 PM, Michael Joe Thannisch wrote:
>In German the Lutherans continued to use the word priest (still do)

The word used in both Evangelical and Catholic churches is Pfarrer, which
is best translated pastor; Germans do have the word Priester, but it would
only be used in Catholic situations, as far as I know.


Steve Benner

steve@...
Oremus -- Daily Prayer, Hymnal and Liturgical Resources since 1993
http://www.oremus.org

>The word used in both Evangelical and Catholic churches is Pfarrer, which
>is best translated pastor; Germans do have the word Priester, but it would
>only be used in Catholic situations, as far as I know.


I thought the German word for pastor was Pastor?  Is this a synonym, or
does it have a different connotation?

My German is pretty superficial.

thomas

My understanding is that while both Roman Catholics and Protestants
in Germany used "Pfarrer" to refer to clergymen, Lutherans tended
to use "Herr Pastor."  Interestingly, German priests were not called
"Vater," the German word for "father," as American Roman Catholic
priests came to be addressed after the middle of the 19th century.
Religious Order priests were addressed by the Latin "Pater," while
secular priests were addressed as "Pfarrer."  At least in the 19th
century, it seems the Lutheran ("evangelisch") pastors were addressed
as "Herr Pastor" if they were indeed the pastor of the parish.  Remember
Americans did not address their clergy as pastor until recently.
New England clergymen were "misters" and were the "ministers"
of their congregations.  In the middle states and south - and middle
west, the ubiquitous "reverend" was more common - as "I go to
reverend Jones' church" or "Reverend, what do you think about..."
Among Lutherans in America, as has been pointed out, "pastor"
became the equivalent of "father" among Roman Catholics --
"Pastor said we should think about building a new church."
"Pastor had a very good children's sermon this morning" and
so forth.

                                  Ray Gadke




At 10:08 AM 10/2/2003 -0400, you wrote:

> >The word used in both Evangelical and Catholic churches is Pfarrer, which
> >is best translated pastor; Germans do have the word Priester, but it would
> >only be used in Catholic situations, as far as I know.
>
>
>I thought the German word for pastor was Pastor?  Is this a synonym, or
>does it have a different connotation?
>
>My German is pretty superficial.
>
>thomas

In a message dated 10/1/2003 11:24:07 PM Central Standard Time,
mjthan@... writes:

> In German the Lutherans continued to use the word priest (still do)
>

Do you mean Pfarrer?  Scandinavians use the term "Praest."  However, this is
generic.  The head of a parish in Germany is "Pastor."   This was the use
before the Reformation.  That's where Lutherans got it from (also the Reformed).
  In Sweden the head of a parish is the Kyrkoherde (church shepherd).   Same
idea de-Latinized.

FCSenn


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>My understanding is that while both Roman Catholics and Protestants
>in Germany used "Pfarrer" to refer to clergymen, Lutherans tended
>to use "Herr Pastor."


Are you aware of their being any ideological undercurrents to this
choice?  If so, do you know what they would have been?

>Do you mean Pfarrer?  Scandinavians use the term "Praest."  However, this is
>generic.  The head of a parish in Germany is "Pastor."   This was the use
>before the Reformation.  That's where Lutherans got it from (also the
>Reformed).
>  In Sweden the head of a parish is the Kyrkoherde (church shepherd).   Same
>idea de-Latinized.

Very interesting.  So it was a pre-reformation usage, a cultural, not an
ideological choice?  That is very much what I needed.

In France they used the term Cure, derived from the fact that their
parochis were cura animarum, they had the care of souls.  This term has
also undergone a very interesting transformation.  In recent Catholic
writings, the approach has been to suggest that the care of souls is the
pastoral function, which thus includes priests (or at least priests with a
pastoral office) as well as bishops, but does not properly extended past
the ordained priesthood.  But in medieval times having the care of souls
was a more generic concept and the fist Lateran Council even included
deacons, subdeacons and others as having this charge, the term "pastores"
appearing (I think, I am just delving into this.  corrections eagerly
welcome) to be the more restricted term.

I am thinking that this may be another example of episcopal powers being
transferred over time to parishes and parish priests, though I don't have
close to enough information to support that thesis yet.

thomas

In a message dated 10/2/2003 10:00:06 AM Central Standard Time,
thomas@... writes:

>
> >My understanding is that while both Roman Catholics and Protestants
> >in Germany used "Pfarrer" to refer to clergymen, Lutherans tended
> >to use "Herr Pastor."
>
>
> Are you aware of their being any ideological undercurrents to this
> choice?  If so, do you know what they would have been?
>
>

In Germany titles tend to be local preference.  I have heard Lutheran pastors
referred to as "Herr Pfarrer" and also "Herr Pastor."  Sometimes titles were
changed to distinguish Lutherans from Catholics.  So some Lutheran "overseers"
were called "Superintendent" instead of "Bishop" (same concept).  However,
among Lutherans you could find both titles in use.  Remember that when dealing
with Germany, ecclesiology was always a mess---before, during, and after the
Reformation.  In part, it may seem like a mess because we think today of
"Germany."  Before 1870, there was no such thing.  "German" was a language and
culture rather than a political entity.  Even the Germany that emerged under the
Hohenzollerns was not all of "Germania."  It did not include, for example, the
Hapsburg lands.  There was no "United Lutheran Church" or even an "Evangelische
Kirche" before the 20th century.  The Landeskirchen were completely
territorial.  E.g. The Church of Saxony, the Church of Brandenburg, the Church
of
Hannover, etc.  Some free cities had their own church independent of the
Landeskirche.  E.g. the Church of Strassburg, the Church of Hamburg, the Church
of
Lubeck, etc.  Why were there all these German-langauge Lutheran synods in
America in
the 19th century?  Because the millions of German Lutheran immigrants came
from different churchees, even different countries.  What did Prussia, Saxony,
or Bavaria have to do with each other?  Very little other than a common
language and, for Lutherans, a common confession.  Hence the Buffalo Synod, the
Missouri Synod, the Ohio Synod, etc.  And each did have some unique traditions
and
views.  That's why the process of bringing Lutherans together has been so
laborious.  And this is just the Germans!

FCsenn


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

One of the frustrations that Catholics run into with this is that,
in spite of Canon Law and it's preferred terms, the practice does
vary from place to place.  In my diocese, the Cathedral has an
attached, canonically erected parish with a "pastor" and parochial
vicars.  In two of the neighboring dioceses, although there is
a "cathedral parish" with all the usual offerings, the bishop is
listed as pastor, the priest-in-charge is listed as "rector" and his
associates are simply "vicars".

C.

--- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Joe Thannisch"
<mjthan@q...> wrote:
> I know one where the rector is the chief pastor, but I have
> trouble with that term for I think it is reserved to the Bishop.

>One of the frustrations that Catholics run into with this is that,
>in spite of Canon Law and it's preferred terms, the practice does
>vary from place to place.  In my diocese, the Cathedral has an
>attached, canonically erected parish with a "pastor" and parochial
>vicars.  In two of the neighboring dioceses, although there is
>a "cathedral parish" with all the usual offerings, the bishop is
>listed as pastor, the priest-in-charge is listed as "rector" and his
>associates are simply "vicars".

There might be a real canonical difference.  A cathedral is not required to
be a parish church, though in the US most are.

thomas

Hello All,

I wonder if anyone in Canada would be able to
email me a jpeg of a Canadian Anglican and a
Canadian Lutheran lectionary page, e.g., first
Sunday of Advent. If it happens that that sunday
is not Isaiah 2.1-5, then perhaps a jpeg of that
reading if it is contained in either lectionary.

I'm interested in how it sits on the page of the
lectionary used in church.

Please email me directly at
oregan@... .

In order to avoid multiple postings, perhaps alert
the list that you will do it.

Thanks in advance.

James O'Regan

I am responding to James O'Regan's request.
Jim

Sorry,

I was not as clear as I should have been. The
First Sunday reading that I was looking for was
from cycle A (Is. 2,1-5).

James

> Hello All,
>
> I wonder if anyone in Canada would be able to
> email me a jpeg of a Canadian Anglican and a
> Canadian Lutheran lectionary page, e.g., first
> Sunday of Advent. If it happens that that sunday
> is not Isaiah 2.1-5, then perhaps a jpeg of that
> reading if it is contained in either lectionary.
>
> I'm interested in how it sits on the page of the
> lectionary used in church.
>
> Please email me directly at
> oregan@... .
>
> In order to avoid multiple postings, perhaps alert
> the list that you will do it.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> James O'Regan
>
>
>
>
> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> liturgy-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> To write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
> liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

James O'Regan

So far, I have only seen the word Pfarrer.  Everyone I talk to uses the word
Priester in speaking.

Shalom in Yeshua Ha Moshiach

Michael Joe Thannisch
mjthan@...
http://episcopalanglicanresources.com
www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ridge/4120/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Benner" <oremus@...>
To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>; <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 8:31 AM
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Pastors


> At 10/1/2003 -0500 11:21 PM, Michael Joe Thannisch wrote:
> >In German the Lutherans continued to use the word priest (still do)
>
> The word used in both Evangelical and Catholic churches is Pfarrer, which
> is best translated pastor; Germans do have the word Priester, but it would
> only be used in Catholic situations, as far as I know.
>
>
> Steve Benner
>
> steve@...
> Oremus -- Daily Prayer, Hymnal and Liturgical Resources since 1993
> http://www.oremus.org
>
>
> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> liturgy-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> To write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
> liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

No, I have always heard Preist, both from Texas German's and German Germans.

Shalom in Yeshua Ha Moshiach

Michael Joe Thannisch
mjthan@...
http://episcopalanglicanresources.com
www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ridge/4120/
----- Original Message -----
From: <fcsenn@...>
To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Pastors


> In a message dated 10/1/2003 11:24:07 PM Central Standard Time,
> mjthan@... writes:
>
> > In German the Lutherans continued to use the word priest (still do)
> >
>
> Do you mean Pfarrer?  Scandinavians use the term "Praest."  However, this
is
> generic.  The head of a parish in Germany is "Pastor."   This was the use
> before the Reformation.  That's where Lutherans got it from (also the
Reformed).
>  In Sweden the head of a parish is the Kyrkoherde (church shepherd).
Same
> idea de-Latinized.
>
> FCSenn
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> liturgy-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> To write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
> liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
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