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#15166 From: MITCHELL LOCKS <mitchlocks@...>
Date: Mon Jun 1, 2009 5:53 pm
Subject: amos judd 		mitchlocks...
Send Email Send Email
  
In Lewis Carroll's soritesis puzzle in his book symbolic logic there appears a
person named Amos Judd. I have obtained a solution of this puzzle from Carroll's
seven premises. Based on this solution I conclude that if Amos Judd existed, he
was a policeman on "this" beat, a cousin of Carroll's cook and "supped" with
her, and a long haired poet who loved cold mutton. Th missing link is the word
"if" because the solution does not lead to an explicit statement that he did,
even though there is a plausible presumption that there really was such a
person. I would appreciate it if someone had access to the relevant geneological
information. Please do not confuse the name Amos Judd with an 1895 American
novel with the same name that morphed into a silent 1922 novie with Valentino.
Mitchell Locks

Reply | Messages in this Topic (7)
#15167 From: "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...>
Date: Mon Jun 1, 2009 6:20 pm
Subject: Photo copyright info 		melaniebenja...
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi!  Longtime lurker, first time poster.  I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House.  I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome.  Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
 
My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel.  (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.)  The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life.  So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia.  I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain.  I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so.  Still, I need to be certain.  I'm still researching the later photograph.  If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it. 
 
(And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago.  Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely.  And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)

Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010

Reply | Messages in this Topic (19)
#15168 From: "Keith" <keith@...>
Date: Mon Jun 1, 2009 7:38 pm
Subject: Re: Photo copyright info 		keith_alan_w...
Send Email Send Email
 
Melanie,
 
None of CLD's images are subject to copyright - all are in the public domain.
 
Books that assert copyright are lying to you - only the author's text is in fact able to be copyrighted. Just don't quote them is my advice!
 
Keith

Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

Hi!  Longtime lurker, first time poster.  I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House.  I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome.  Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
 
My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel.  (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.)  The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life.  So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia.  I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain.  I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so.  Still, I need to be certain.  I'm still researching the later photograph.  If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it. 
 
(And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago.  Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely.  And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)

Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010


Reply | Messages in this Topic (19)
#15169 From: "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...>
Date: Mon Jun 1, 2009 8:03 pm
Subject: Re: Photo copyright info 		melaniebenja...
Send Email Send Email
 
Thanks - no worries, no text is ever quoted in the writing of my novels!  I did, though, see some assertions that "some" of Dodgson's photographs were still protected by copyright, which is why I was wondering.
 
Now, on to research that last photo....
 
Melanie Benjamin
ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

Melanie,
 
None of CLD's images are subject to copyright - all are in the public domain.
 
Books that assert copyright are lying to you - only the author's text is in fact able to be copyrighted. Just don't quote them is my advice!
 
Keith

Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

Hi!  Longtime lurker, first time poster.  I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House.  I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome.  Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
 
My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel.  (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.)  The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life.  So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia.  I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain.  I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so.  Still, I need to be certain.  I'm still researching the later photograph.  If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it. 
 
(And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago.  Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely.  And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)

Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010


Reply | Messages in this Topic (19)
#15170 From: "Keith Sheppard" <keith@...>
Date: Tue Jun 2, 2009 10:12 am
Subject: Re: Photo copyright info 		krsheppard
Send Email Send Email
  
Melanie

Where is your novel being published - UK, USA or elsewhere? I have more than a
passing interest as I am also intending to publish in Feb 2010 although my book
is a straight pastiche of Carroll's Alice books.

My plan is to catch the wave of publicity surrounding Tim Burton's film release
scheduled for next May. I was wondering if that was the rationale behind your,
or Random's, chosen publication date.

Good luck with yours, anyway. Is it a first novel or are you a seasoned writer?

(Another) Keith

Reply | Messages in this Topic (19)
#15171 From: "Keith Sheppard" <keith@...>
Date: Tue Jun 2, 2009 1:45 pm
Subject: Re: Twitter 		krsheppard
Send Email Send Email
  
--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "jenny2write" <woolf@...> wrote:
>
> Twitter or Witter. Is anyone on it here? My twittername is jennywoolf.
> Jenny Woolf
>

I'm WriterManUK.

Keith Sheppard

Reply | Messages in this Topic (3)
#15172 From: "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...>
Date: Tue Jun 2, 2009 2:30 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Photo copyright info 		melaniebenja...
Send Email Send Email
 
HI Keith!
 
I'm a US author, so I'm published through Random House US, although hopefully there will be foreign rights sales sometime soon.  And while, fingers crossed, there will hopefully be a UK edition, the book is already up on Amazon UK - and I have no idea why; how there can be a UK edition when the US edition is available there?  I've never figured that out!)  I was unaware of the Tim Burton movie when I decided to write the book, but as soon as I did any research, of course, it came up.  So yes, I'd say it was 1) a motivating factor to glue my butt in my chair and write it ASAP! and 2) a factor in the pub date.  It's tough to sell books these days, and any kind of tie-in like this is very fortunate. 
 
Who's your publisher?  Same questions - will it be available in the US?
 
Soon I should have a website up (actually I'm looking for designers right now, as I think there are endless possibilities to tie in Alice imagery and links and lore, although I'm already writing my next historical novel, which will be quite different.  Still, I think a good designer could do so much with this.).
 
And good luck to you, too!
 
Melanie
 
Melanie Benjamin
ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 5:12 AM
Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Photo copyright info

Melanie

Where is your novel being published - UK, USA or elsewhere? I have more than a passing interest as I am also intending to publish in Feb 2010 although my book is a straight pastiche of Carroll's Alice books.

My plan is to catch the wave of publicity surrounding Tim Burton's film release scheduled for next May. I was wondering if that was the rationale behind your, or Random's, chosen publication date.

Good luck with yours, anyway. Is it a first novel or are you a seasoned writer?

(Another) Keith


Reply | Messages in this Topic (19)
#15173 From: "Keith Sheppard" <keith@...>
Date: Tue Jun 2, 2009 2:56 pm
Subject: Re: Photo copyright info 		krsheppard
Send Email Send Email
  
Melanie

I'm publishing through a small, independent, UK authors' cooperative called
Mockingbird. It's a new start up so you probably won't find any information on
them on the web just yet. I understand they are planning to launch their first
books probably late summer or autumn 2009. My Alice book is deliberately being
held back until early 2010 to catch the film publicity.

It will be available through Amazon so I expect that means it will at least be
orderable in the US. Title is "Alice Wanders Down Stream" and there's an excerpt
on my web site at http://www.Writerman.org.uk if you're interested.

I'm with you on the designer front. I am rapidly discovering there's so much
more to publishing a book than just writing the words. I'm currently looking for
an illustrator.

Keith

Reply | Messages in this Topic (19)
#15174 From: MITCHELL LOCKS <mitchlocks@...>
Date: Tue Jun 2, 2009 5:26 pm
Subject: Re: Photo copyright info 		mitchlocks...
Send Email Send Email
  
I didn't know there were Dodgson photographs. Does anyone know of photographs of
his cook?
Mitchell Locks

--- On Mon, 6/1/09, Melanie Benjamin <melaniebenjamin@...> wrote:

> From: Melanie Benjamin <melaniebenjamin@...>
> Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
> To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, June 1, 2009, 1:03 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks - no worries, no
> text is ever quoted in the
> writing of my novels!  I did, though, see some
> assertions that "some" of
> Dodgson's photographs were still protected by
> copyright, which is why I was
> wondering.
>  
> Now, on to research that
> last
> photo....
>  
> Melanie
> Benjamin
> ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random
> House, January
> 2010
>  
>  
>
>   ----- Original Message
> -----
>   From:
>   Keith
>
>   To: lewiscarroll@
> yahoogroups. com
>
>   Sent: Monday, June
> 01, 2009 2:38 PM
>   Subject: Re:
> [lewiscarroll] Photo
>   copyright info
>
>
>
>
>   Melanie,
>    
>   None of CLD's images
> are subject to copyright -
>   all are in the public domain.
>    
>   Books that assert
> copyright are lying to you -
>   only the author's text is in fact able to be
> copyrighted. Just don't quote
>   them is my advice!
>    
>   Keith
>
>
>
>
>   From: Melanie
> Benjamin
>   Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
>   To: lewiscarroll@
> yahoogroups. com
>
>   Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright
> info
>
>
>
>
>
>   Hi!  Longtime
> lurker, first time
>   poster.  I've been hesitant to post as I'm
> the author of a historical
>   novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with
> Random House.  I
>   enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author
> of a novel about this
>   beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome. 
> Nevertheless, I come,
>   hat humbly in hand, for help.
>    
>   My publisher wants to
> use three photographs of
>   Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the
> novel.  (Note - this is
>   fiction, not a biography.)  The novel follows Alice
> from her childhood to
>   the very end of her life.  So there are 3
> photographs we want to use -
>   the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one
> Dodgson took of her, when
>   she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only
> one of her as an
>   elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper
> when she visited
>   Columbia.  I know the beggar child photo is in the
> public domain. 
>   I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her
> when she was 18 is - but
>   I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70
> years) would make it
>   appear so.  Still, I need to be certain. 
> I'm still researching
>   the later photograph.  If anyone here knows more
> about where I can find
>   this information, I would appreciate it. 
>
>    
>   (And yes, I'm aware
> of the Kate Roiphe novel that
>   came out - also published by Random House, so they're
> very much aware -
>   several years ago.  Mine is very different, and
> encompasses Alice's
>   entire life, and is from her point of view
> entirely.  And also, I
>   believe, is more sympathetic toward
> Carroll.)
>
> Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random
>   House, January 2010
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Reply | Messages in this Topic (19)
#15175 From: "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...>
Date: Tue Jun 2, 2009 6:30 pm
Subject: Re: Photo copyright info 		melaniebenja...
Send Email Send Email
 
Interesting information that says many of Dodgson's photographs are not in the public domain, having been republished prior to the end of 2002, when the newest copyright laws (life of artist plus 70 years, or until 2002, whichever came first, for many older artists) too effect.  This says that most of them, then, are still protected by his executors -
 
(Hope this link works; it's to a page in a book available on Google Search called "Permissions, a survival guide."
 
Melanie Benjamin
ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, 2010
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

Melanie,
 
None of CLD's images are subject to copyright - all are in the public domain.
 
Books that assert copyright are lying to you - only the author's text is in fact able to be copyrighted. Just don't quote them is my advice!
 
Keith

Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

Hi!  Longtime lurker, first time poster.  I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House.  I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome.  Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
 
My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel.  (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.)  The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life.  So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia.  I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain.  I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so.  Still, I need to be certain.  I'm still researching the later photograph.  If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it. 
 
(And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago.  Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely.  And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)

Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010


Reply | Messages in this Topic (19)
#15176 From: "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...>
Date: Tue Jun 2, 2009 6:38 pm
Subject: Re: Photo copyright info 		melaniebenja...
Send Email Send Email
 
To clarify - after re-reading more carefully - if any of his photographs were not published prior to 2002, and were included in the published works of that year, they are not in the public domain.  If the photographs were published earlier - for example, the famous one of Alice Liddell as the beggar girl was - they are in the public domain.  The point is that when those 2 collections of his photographs were published in 2002, they consisted of many photographs that had not been published before, and so those photographs are now protected. 
 
Which means I have no idea whether or not the one of 18-year-old Alice Liddell is protected, now!
 
Melanie Benjamin
ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

Interesting information that says many of Dodgson's photographs are not in the public domain, having been republished prior to the end of 2002, when the newest copyright laws (life of artist plus 70 years, or until 2002, whichever came first, for many older artists) too effect.  This says that most of them, then, are still protected by his executors -
 
(Hope this link works; it's to a page in a book available on Google Search called "Permissions, a survival guide."
 
Melanie Benjamin
ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, 2010
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

Melanie,
 
None of CLD's images are subject to copyright - all are in the public domain.
 
Books that assert copyright are lying to you - only the author's text is in fact able to be copyrighted. Just don't quote them is my advice!
 
Keith

Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

Hi!  Longtime lurker, first time poster.  I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House.  I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome.  Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
 
My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel.  (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.)  The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life.  So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia.  I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain.  I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so.  Still, I need to be certain.  I'm still researching the later photograph.  If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it. 
 
(And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago.  Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely.  And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)

Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010


Reply | Messages in this Topic (19)
#15177 From: "Keith" <keith@...>
Date: Tue Jun 2, 2009 6:58 pm
Subject: Re: Photo copyright info 		keith_alan_w...
Send Email Send Email
 
Melanie,
 
they are kidding you! Any print of a photo in an album is simply that, a print, and as such does not convey copyright to the receiver of the print. If I have a print of the Mona Lisa - does that convey any copyright to me? I'm sure you'll agree it doesn't.
 
The images that were published in 2002 were from albums in the USA and the universities there did not have copyright over the images so cannot claim such now. If copyright had existed it would have rested with the Dodgson family and therefore the universities should not have included them in books as they were in breach of the copyright rules they are now apparently trying to foister onto others! I took this up with the curator at the National Museum of Photography and they concur, no copyright exists over any of CLD's images. If anyone has a print and it is unique such that they wish to retain the image solely for themselves then the only course of action is to lock it in a safe.
 
If it is any help the image of Alice Liddell aged 18 was published in books long before 2002.
 
Keith
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

To clarify - after re-reading more carefully - if any of his photographs were not published prior to 2002, and were included in the published works of that year, they are not in the public domain.  If the photographs were published earlier - for example, the famous one of Alice Liddell as the beggar girl was - they are in the public domain.  The point is that when those 2 collections of his photographs were published in 2002, they consisted of many photographs that had not been published before, and so those photographs are now protected. 
 
Which means I have no idea whether or not the one of 18-year-old Alice Liddell is protected, now!
 
Melanie Benjamin
ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

Interesting information that says many of Dodgson's photographs are not in the public domain, having been republished prior to the end of 2002, when the newest copyright laws (life of artist plus 70 years, or until 2002, whichever came first, for many older artists) too effect.  This says that most of them, then, are still protected by his executors -
 
(Hope this link works; it's to a page in a book available on Google Search called "Permissions, a survival guide."
 
Melanie Benjamin
ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, 2010
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

Melanie,
 
None of CLD's images are subject to copyright - all are in the public domain.
 
Books that assert copyright are lying to you - only the author's text is in fact able to be copyrighted. Just don't quote them is my advice!
 
Keith

Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

Hi!  Longtime lurker, first time poster.  I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House.  I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome.  Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
 
My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel.  (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.)  The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life.  So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia.  I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain.  I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so.  Still, I need to be certain.  I'm still researching the later photograph.  If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it. 
 
(And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago.  Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely.  And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)

Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010


Reply | Messages in this Topic (19)
#15178 From: "Keith" <keith@...>
Date: Tue Jun 2, 2009 7:06 pm
Subject: Re: Photo copyright info 		keith_alan_w...
Send Email Send Email
 
If you want references to the image of Alice Liddell aged 18 being used it was in the LC Picture book published in 1899 page 210. It was also used by Becker Lennon in her biography of Lewis Carroll published in 1945, opposite page 194.
 
Keith
 
 
 
 
 

Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

To clarify - after re-reading more carefully - if any of his photographs were not published prior to 2002, and were included in the published works of that year, they are not in the public domain.  If the photographs were published earlier - for example, the famous one of Alice Liddell as the beggar girl was - they are in the public domain.  The point is that when those 2 collections of his photographs were published in 2002, they consisted of many photographs that had not been published before, and so those photographs are now protected. 
 
Which means I have no idea whether or not the one of 18-year-old Alice Liddell is protected, now!
 
Melanie Benjamin
ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

Interesting information that says many of Dodgson's photographs are not in the public domain, having been republished prior to the end of 2002, when the newest copyright laws (life of artist plus 70 years, or until 2002, whichever came first, for many older artists) too effect.  This says that most of them, then, are still protected by his executors -
 
(Hope this link works; it's to a page in a book available on Google Search called "Permissions, a survival guide."
 
Melanie Benjamin
ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, 2010
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

Melanie,
 
None of CLD's images are subject to copyright - all are in the public domain.
 
Books that assert copyright are lying to you - only the author's text is in fact able to be copyrighted. Just don't quote them is my advice!
 
Keith

Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

Hi!  Longtime lurker, first time poster.  I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House.  I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome.  Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
 
My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel.  (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.)  The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life.  So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia.  I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain.  I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so.  Still, I need to be certain.  I'm still researching the later photograph.  If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it. 
 
(And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago.  Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely.  And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)

Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010


Reply | Messages in this Topic (19)
#15179 From: "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...>
Date: Tue Jun 2, 2009 7:23 pm
Subject: Re: Photo copyright info 		melaniebenja...
Send Email Send Email
 
I know it seems as if I'm being neurotic, but trust me - this is something I have to get 100% right, and be very particular about.  It's the author's responsibility to secure the rights to anything like photographs and even lyrics to music, if that's used.  It's not the publisher's, so I'm the one who will pay if I use anything without securing permission.  And if there's any doubt, of course, I can't use the photograph.  So I have to be extremely careful, particularly since it appears, at least according to this book about copyright laws, that Dodgson's photographs are an unusual example of how someone who was very canny managed to protect many of the photographs until 2047.  Since many of them were in private collections until those books and exhibits came out in 2002, they qualify.  So it's up to me to determine if the photographs I want to use were or were not first published between 1978-2002 (the time period during which anything, regardless of age, could be published for the first time and come under protection until 2047).  
 
Anyway, I think it's helpful for anyone interested in this to understand that, contrary to popular belief, not every photograph of his is in the public domain. 
 
Thank you!
 
Melanie
 
Melanie Benjamin, ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House 2010 
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith
Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

If you want references to the image of Alice Liddell aged 18 being used it was in the LC Picture book published in 1899 page 210. It was also used by Becker Lennon in her biography of Lewis Carroll published in 1945, opposite page 194.
 
Keith
 
 
 
 
 

Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

To clarify - after re-reading more carefully - if any of his photographs were not published prior to 2002, and were included in the published works of that year, they are not in the public domain.  If the photographs were published earlier - for example, the famous one of Alice Liddell as the beggar girl was - they are in the public domain.  The point is that when those 2 collections of his photographs were published in 2002, they consisted of many photographs that had not been published before, and so those photographs are now protected. 
 
Which means I have no idea whether or not the one of 18-year-old Alice Liddell is protected, now!
 
Melanie Benjamin
ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

Interesting information that says many of Dodgson's photographs are not in the public domain, having been republished prior to the end of 2002, when the newest copyright laws (life of artist plus 70 years, or until 2002, whichever came first, for many older artists) too effect.  This says that most of them, then, are still protected by his executors -
 
(Hope this link works; it's to a page in a book available on Google Search called "Permissions, a survival guide."
 
Melanie Benjamin
ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, 2010
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

Melanie,
 
None of CLD's images are subject to copyright - all are in the public domain.
 
Books that assert copyright are lying to you - only the author's text is in fact able to be copyrighted. Just don't quote them is my advice!
 
Keith

Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

Hi!  Longtime lurker, first time poster.  I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House.  I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome.  Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
 
My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel.  (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.)  The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life.  So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia.  I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain.  I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so.  Still, I need to be certain.  I'm still researching the later photograph.  If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it. 
 
(And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago.  Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely.  And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)

Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010


Reply | Messages in this Topic (19)
#15180 From: "mahendra373" <mahendra373@...>
Date: Tue Jun 2, 2009 7:28 pm
Subject: Re: Photo copyright info 		mahendra373
Send Email Send Email
  
Keith is correct. CLD is entirely public domain world-wide owing to time elapsed
since death date. The date of any source from which you pull your image is
immaterial since only CLD held the copyright. Only CLD could ever hold a
copyright to any image or text, if in theory you could spirit away a museum's
print or neg of one his photos, you can reproduce it as much as you like.

The real problem for you will be obtaining good quality prints to use for book
(I assume) reproduction. That does not involve copyright, merely negotiation to
reproduce someone's reproduction of a public domain image.

BTW, be careful, UK/Canada/European vs US copyrights can vary. It's the iron
fist of Mickey Mouse that's responsible for that.





--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@...> wrote:
>
> Melanie,
>
> they are kidding you! Any print of a photo in an album is simply that, a
print, and as such does not convey copyright to the receiver of the print. If I
have a print of the Mona Lisa - does that convey any copyright to me? I'm sure
you'll agree it doesn't.
>
> The images that were published in 2002 were from albums in the USA and the
universities there did not have copyright over the images so cannot claim such
now. If copyright had existed it would have rested with the Dodgson family and
therefore the universities should not have included them in books as they were
in breach of the copyright rules they are now apparently trying to foister onto
others! I took this up with the curator at the National Museum of Photography
and they concur, no copyright exists over any of CLD's images. If anyone has a
print and it is unique such that they wish to retain the image solely for
themselves then the only course of action is to lock it in a safe.
>
> If it is any help the image of Alice Liddell aged 18 was published in books
long before 2002.
>
> Keith
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Melanie Benjamin
> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 7:38 PM
> To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To clarify - after re-reading more carefully - if any of his photographs were
not published prior to 2002, and were included in the published works of that
year, they are not in the public domain.  If the photographs were published
earlier - for example, the famous one of Alice Liddell as the beggar girl was -
they are in the public domain.  The point is that when those 2 collections of
his photographs were published in 2002, they consisted of many photographs that
had not been published before, and so those photographs are now protected.
>
> Which means I have no idea whether or not the one of 18-year-old Alice Liddell
is protected, now!
>
> Melanie Benjamin
> ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Melanie Benjamin
>   To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 1:30 PM
>   Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
>
>
>
>   Interesting information that says many of Dodgson's photographs are not in
the public domain, having been republished prior to the end of 2002, when the
newest copyright laws (life of artist plus 70 years, or until 2002, whichever
came first, for many older artists) too effect.  This says that most of them,
then, are still protected by his executors -
>  
http://books.google.com/books?id=6y-QVFerLTMC&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=Charles+Dodgso\
n+photographs+in+public+domain&source=bl&ots=GZuFGKQc2b&sig=TPe-FEHSngHwepMNlIHj\
OenX5po&hl=en&ei=tG4lStP1K9_elQf1w6nYBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#P\
PA22,M1
>
>   (Hope this link works; it's to a page in a book available on Google Search
called "Permissions, a survival guide."
>
>   Melanie Benjamin
>   ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, 2010
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: Keith
>     To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
>     Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:38 PM
>     Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
>
>
>
>     Melanie,
>
>     None of CLD's images are subject to copyright - all are in the public
domain.
>
>     Books that assert copyright are lying to you - only the author's text is
in fact able to be copyrighted. Just don't quote them is my advice!
>
>     Keith
>
>
>     From: Melanie Benjamin
>     Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
>     To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
>     Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
>
>
>
>     Hi!  Longtime lurker, first time poster.  I've been hesitant to post as
I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January
with Random House.  I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author
of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome. 
Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
>
>     My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3
separate sections of the novel.  (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.)  The
novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life.  So there
are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the
last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and
then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a
newspaper when she visited Columbia.  I know the beggar child photo is in the
public domain.  I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she
was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years)
would make it appear so.  Still, I need to be certain.  I'm still researching
the later photograph.  If anyone here knows more about where I can find this
information, I would appreciate it.
>
>     (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also
published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago.  Mine
is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of
view entirely.  And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)
>
>     Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
>

Reply | Messages in this Topic (19)
#15181 From: "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...>
Date: Tue Jun 2, 2009 7:39 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Photo copyright info 		melaniebenja...
Send Email Send Email
 
See, this isn't correct.  It's the common misconception.  If you look at it as the life of the author/artist plus 70 years only, yes.  You're correct - anything he has written or photographed is in the public domain.  However.  Since his photography, on the whole, was really only discovered more recently, and many of the photographs remained in private collections, many of them were not "published."  Yes, anything used in the early biographies, or published in any form prior to 1978, is definitely public domain.  However, the loophole in the US copyright law is that if a work, even if it had been created 200 years ago, never was published prior to 1978, the owner had until 2002 to publish it and protect the rights through 2047.  If the owner did not, then it, too, fell into public domain.  And Carroll's executors, apparently, got busy and gathered up many of these photographs previously held privately, published them prior to the end of 2002 - and now they are protected through 2047.
 
This is the most definite information I've found, both on sites that spell out copyright law, and the book, "Permissions, A Survival Guide."  The latter book specifically cites the Carroll photographs as an example of someone being very canny in securing rights during the grace period of 1978-2002.
 
Melanie
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 2:28 PM
Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Photo copyright info

Keith is correct. CLD is entirely public domain world-wide owing to time elapsed since death date. The date of any source from which you pull your image is immaterial since only CLD held the copyright. Only CLD could ever hold a copyright to any image or text, if in theory you could spirit away a museum's print or neg of one his photos, you can reproduce it as much as you like.

The real problem for you will be obtaining good quality prints to use for book (I assume) reproduction. That does not involve copyright, merely negotiation to reproduce someone's reproduction of a public domain image.

BTW, be careful, UK/Canada/European vs US copyrights can vary. It's the iron fist of Mickey Mouse that's responsible for that.

--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@...> wrote:
>
> Melanie,
>
> they are kidding you! Any print of a photo in an album is simply that, a print, and as such does not convey copyright to the receiver of the print. If I have a print of the Mona Lisa - does that convey any copyright to me? I'm sure you'll agree it doesn't.
>
> The images that were published in 2002 were from albums in the USA and the universities there did not have copyright over the images so cannot claim such now. If copyright had existed it would have rested with the Dodgson family and therefore the universities should not have included them in books as they were in breach of the copyright rules they are now apparently trying to foister onto others! I took this up with the curator at the National Museum of Photography and they concur, no copyright exists over any of CLD's images. If anyone has a print and it is unique such that they wish to retain the image solely for themselves then the only course of action is to lock it in a safe.
>
> If it is any help the image of Alice Liddell aged 18 was published in books long before 2002.
>
> Keith
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Melanie Benjamin
> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 7:38 PM
> To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To clarify - after re-reading more carefully - if any of his photographs were not published prior to 2002, and were included in the published works of that year, they are not in the public domain. If the photographs were published earlier - for example, the famous one of Alice Liddell as the beggar girl was - they are in the public domain. The point is that when those 2 collections of his photographs were published in 2002, they consisted of many photographs that had not been published before, and so those photographs are now protected.
>
> Which means I have no idea whether or not the one of 18-year-old Alice Liddell is protected, now!
>
> Melanie Benjamin
> ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Melanie Benjamin
> To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 1:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
>
>
>
> Interesting information that says many of Dodgson's photographs are not in the public domain, having been republished prior to the end of 2002, when the newest copyright laws (life of artist plus 70 years, or until 2002, whichever came first, for many older artists) too effect. This says that most of them, then, are still protected by his executors -
> http://books.google.com/books?id=6y-QVFerLTMC&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=Charles+Dodgson+photographs+in+public+domain&source=bl&ots=GZuFGKQc2b&sig=TPe-FEHSngHwepMNlIHjOenX5po&hl=en&ei=tG4lStP1K9_elQf1w6nYBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA22,M1
>
> (Hope this link works; it's to a page in a book available on Google Search called "Permissions, a survival guide."
>
> Melanie Benjamin
> ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, 2010
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Keith
> To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
>
>
>
> Melanie,
>
> None of CLD's images are subject to copyright - all are in the public domain.
>
> Books that assert copyright are lying to you - only the author's text is in fact able to be copyrighted. Just don't quote them is my advice!
>
> Keith
>
>
> From: Melanie Benjamin
> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
> To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
>
>
>
> Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome. Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
>
> My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.) The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so. Still, I need to be certain. I'm still researching the later photograph. If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it.
>
> (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago. Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)
>
> Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
>


Reply | Messages in this Topic (19)
#15182 From: "mahendra373" <mahendra373@...>
Date: Tue Jun 2, 2009 8:08 pm
Subject: Re: Photo copyright info 		mahendra373
Send Email Send Email
  
I understand your point ... assuming that the persons who published the CLD
photos (2002 was it?) were the designated CLD estate.

I were you, if it's worth the money, I would consult a specialized attorney. And
if the 2002 publishers were the CLD estate, it may not be as expensive as you
think.


--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...>
wrote:
>
> See, this isn't correct.  It's the common misconception.  If you look at it as
the life of the author/artist plus 70 years only, yes.  You're correct -
anything he has written or photographed is in the public domain.  However. 
Since his photography, on the whole, was really only discovered more recently,
and many of the photographs remained in private collections, many of them were
not "published."  Yes, anything used in the early biographies, or published in
any form prior to 1978, is definitely public domain.  However, the loophole in
the US copyright law is that if a work, even if it had been created 200 years
ago, never was published prior to 1978, the owner had until 2002 to publish it
and protect the rights through 2047.  If the owner did not, then it, too, fell
into public domain.  And Carroll's executors, apparently, got busy and gathered
up many of these photographs previously held privately, published them prior to
the end of 2002 - and now they are protected through 2047.
>
> This is the most definite information I've found, both on sites that spell out
copyright law, and the book, "Permissions, A Survival Guide."  The latter book
specifically cites the Carroll photographs as an example of someone being very
canny in securing rights during the grace period of 1978-2002.
>
> Melanie
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: mahendra373
>   To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 2:28 PM
>   Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Photo copyright info
>
>
>
>
>
>   Keith is correct. CLD is entirely public domain world-wide owing to time
elapsed since death date. The date of any source from which you pull your image
is immaterial since only CLD held the copyright. Only CLD could ever hold a
copyright to any image or text, if in theory you could spirit away a museum's
print or neg of one his photos, you can reproduce it as much as you like.
>
>   The real problem for you will be obtaining good quality prints to use for
book (I assume) reproduction. That does not involve copyright, merely
negotiation to reproduce someone's reproduction of a public domain image.
>
>   BTW, be careful, UK/Canada/European vs US copyrights can vary. It's the iron
fist of Mickey Mouse that's responsible for that.
>
>   --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@> wrote:
>   >
>   > Melanie,
>   >
>   > they are kidding you! Any print of a photo in an album is simply that, a
print, and as such does not convey copyright to the receiver of the print. If I
have a print of the Mona Lisa - does that convey any copyright to me? I'm sure
you'll agree it doesn't.
>   >
>   > The images that were published in 2002 were from albums in the USA and the
universities there did not have copyright over the images so cannot claim such
now. If copyright had existed it would have rested with the Dodgson family and
therefore the universities should not have included them in books as they were
in breach of the copyright rules they are now apparently trying to foister onto
others! I took this up with the curator at the National Museum of Photography
and they concur, no copyright exists over any of CLD's images. If anyone has a
print and it is unique such that they wish to retain the image solely for
themselves then the only course of action is to lock it in a safe.
>   >
>   > If it is any help the image of Alice Liddell aged 18 was published in
books long before 2002.
>   >
>   > Keith
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > From: Melanie Benjamin
>   > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 7:38 PM
>   > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
>   > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > To clarify - after re-reading more carefully - if any of his photographs
were not published prior to 2002, and were included in the published works of
that year, they are not in the public domain. If the photographs were published
earlier - for example, the famous one of Alice Liddell as the beggar girl was -
they are in the public domain. The point is that when those 2 collections of his
photographs were published in 2002, they consisted of many photographs that had
not been published before, and so those photographs are now protected.
>   >
>   > Which means I have no idea whether or not the one of 18-year-old Alice
Liddell is protected, now!
>   >
>   > Melanie Benjamin
>   > ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
>   >
>   > ----- Original Message -----
>   > From: Melanie Benjamin
>   > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
>   > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 1:30 PM
>   > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > Interesting information that says many of Dodgson's photographs are not in
the public domain, having been republished prior to the end of 2002, when the
newest copyright laws (life of artist plus 70 years, or until 2002, whichever
came first, for many older artists) too effect. This says that most of them,
then, are still protected by his executors -
>   >
http://books.google.com/books?id=6y-QVFerLTMC&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=Charles+Dodgso\
n+photographs+in+public+domain&source=bl&ots=GZuFGKQc2b&sig=TPe-FEHSngHwepMNlIHj\
OenX5po&hl=en&ei=tG4lStP1K9_elQf1w6nYBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#P\
PA22,M1
>   >
>   > (Hope this link works; it's to a page in a book available on Google Search
called "Permissions, a survival guide."
>   >
>   > Melanie Benjamin
>   > ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, 2010
>   >
>   > ----- Original Message -----
>   > From: Keith
>   > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
>   > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:38 PM
>   > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > Melanie,
>   >
>   > None of CLD's images are subject to copyright - all are in the public
domain.
>   >
>   > Books that assert copyright are lying to you - only the author's text is
in fact able to be copyrighted. Just don't quote them is my advice!
>   >
>   > Keith
>   >
>   >
>   > From: Melanie Benjamin
>   > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
>   > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
>   > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as I'm
the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with
Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a
novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome. Nevertheless, I
come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
>   >
>   > My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3
separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.) The
novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So there are
3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last
one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then
the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a
newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar child photo is in the
public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she
was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years)
would make it appear so. Still, I need to be certain. I'm still researching the
later photograph. If anyone here knows more about where I can find this
information, I would appreciate it.
>   >
>   > (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also
published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago. Mine
is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of
view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)
>   >
>   > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
>   >
>

Reply | Messages in this Topic (19)
#15183 From: "oldjoesoap" <oldjoesoap@...>
Date: Wed Jun 3, 2009 8:39 pm
Subject: Re: Photo copyright info 		oldjoesoap
Send Email Send Email
  
Melanie,

I would suggest that it might set your mind at rest if you were to contact the
Pierpont Morgan Library in New York and ask them for a good quality digital
image of 'Alice at 18'  and their permission to use it in your book.  They own
one of five known original prints of this photograph.  They also own one of ten
known prints of 'The Beggar Maid' (uncoloured) so you could try them for this as
well.  I think we would all be interested to know how they respond.

J


--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...>
wrote:
>
> See, this isn't correct.  It's the common misconception.  If you look at it as
the life of the author/artist plus 70 years only, yes.  You're correct -
anything he has written or photographed is in the public domain.  However. 
Since his photography, on the whole, was really only discovered more recently,
and many of the photographs remained in private collections, many of them were
not "published."  Yes, anything used in the early biographies, or published in
any form prior to 1978, is definitely public domain.  However, the loophole in
the US copyright law is that if a work, even if it had been created 200 years
ago, never was published prior to 1978, the owner had until 2002 to publish it
and protect the rights through 2047.  If the owner did not, then it, too, fell
into public domain.  And Carroll's executors, apparently, got busy and gathered
up many of these photographs previously held privately, published them prior to
the end of 2002 - and now they are protected through 2047.
>
> This is the most definite information I've found, both on sites that spell out
copyright law, and the book, "Permissions, A Survival Guide."  The latter book
specifically cites the Carroll photographs as an example of someone being very
canny in securing rights during the grace period of 1978-2002.
>
> Melanie
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: mahendra373
>   To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 2:28 PM
>   Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Photo copyright info
>
>
>
>
>
>   Keith is correct. CLD is entirely public domain world-wide owing to time
elapsed since death date. The date of any source from which you pull your image
is immaterial since only CLD held the copyright. Only CLD could ever hold a
copyright to any image or text, if in theory you could spirit away a museum's
print or neg of one his photos, you can reproduce it as much as you like.
>
>   The real problem for you will be obtaining good quality prints to use for
book (I assume) reproduction. That does not involve copyright, merely
negotiation to reproduce someone's reproduction of a public domain image.
>
>   BTW, be careful, UK/Canada/European vs US copyrights can vary. It's the iron
fist of Mickey Mouse that's responsible for that.
>
>   --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@> wrote:
>   >
>   > Melanie,
>   >
>   > they are kidding you! Any print of a photo in an album is simply that, a
print, and as such does not convey copyright to the receiver of the print. If I
have a print of the Mona Lisa - does that convey any copyright to me? I'm sure
you'll agree it doesn't.
>   >
>   > The images that were published in 2002 were from albums in the USA and the
universities there did not have copyright over the images so cannot claim such
now. If copyright had existed it would have rested with the Dodgson family and
therefore the universities should not have included them in books as they were
in breach of the copyright rules they are now apparently trying to foister onto
others! I took this up with the curator at the National Museum of Photography
and they concur, no copyright exists over any of CLD's images. If anyone has a
print and it is unique such that they wish to retain the image solely for
themselves then the only course of action is to lock it in a safe.
>   >
>   > If it is any help the image of Alice Liddell aged 18 was published in
books long before 2002.
>   >
>   > Keith
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > From: Melanie Benjamin
>   > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 7:38 PM
>   > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
>   > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > To clarify - after re-reading more carefully - if any of his photographs
were not published prior to 2002, and were included in the published works of
that year, they are not in the public domain. If the photographs were published
earlier - for example, the famous one of Alice Liddell as the beggar girl was -
they are in the public domain. The point is that when those 2 collections of his
photographs were published in 2002, they consisted of many photographs that had
not been published before, and so those photographs are now protected.
>   >
>   > Which means I have no idea whether or not the one of 18-year-old Alice
Liddell is protected, now!
>   >
>   > Melanie Benjamin
>   > ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
>   >
>   > ----- Original Message -----
>   > From: Melanie Benjamin
>   > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
>   > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 1:30 PM
>   > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > Interesting information that says many of Dodgson's photographs are not in
the public domain, having been republished prior to the end of 2002, when the
newest copyright laws (life of artist plus 70 years, or until 2002, whichever
came first, for many older artists) too effect. This says that most of them,
then, are still protected by his executors -
>   >
http://books.google.com/books?id=6y-QVFerLTMC&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=Charles+Dodgso\
n+photographs+in+public+domain&source=bl&ots=GZuFGKQc2b&sig=TPe-FEHSngHwepMNlIHj\
OenX5po&hl=en&ei=tG4lStP1K9_elQf1w6nYBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#P\
PA22,M1
>   >
>   > (Hope this link works; it's to a page in a book available on Google Search
called "Permissions, a survival guide."
>   >
>   > Melanie Benjamin
>   > ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, 2010
>   >
>   > ----- Original Message -----
>   > From: Keith
>   > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
>   > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:38 PM
>   > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > Melanie,
>   >
>   > None of CLD's images are subject to copyright - all are in the public
domain.
>   >
>   > Books that assert copyright are lying to you - only the author's text is
in fact able to be copyrighted. Just don't quote them is my advice!
>   >
>   > Keith
>   >
>   >
>   > From: Melanie Benjamin
>   > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
>   > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
>   > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as I'm
the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with
Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a
novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome. Nevertheless, I
come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
>   >
>   > My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3
separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.) The
novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So there are
3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last
one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then
the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a
newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar child photo is in the
public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she
was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years)
would make it appear so. Still, I need to be certain. I'm still researching the
later photograph. If anyone here knows more about where I can find this
information, I would appreciate it.
>   >
>   > (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also
published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago. Mine
is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of
view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)
>   >
>   > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
>   >
>

Reply | Messages in this Topic (19)
#15184 From: "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...>
Date: Thu Jun 4, 2009 1:55 am
Subject: Re: Re: Photo copyright info 		melaniebenja...
Send Email Send Email
 
That's a good idea.  I did just contact the National Gallery in London, which also has a print of Alice at 18, asking the same thing - how much they would charge for permission to use the image from their site.  (I know they do charge; they made it clear that while the original photo is out of copyright, most copies and scans of the photograph, including the one on their site and in their collection, are not.) 
 
The beggar girl photo is available on Wikipedia Commons, so I thought I could use that image.  However, Alice at 18 is not on that site.   
 
It all seems so very simple, at first glance.  Of course, nothing ever is!   
 
----- Original Message -----
From: oldjoesoap
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 3:39 PM
Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Photo copyright info

Melanie,

I would suggest that it might set your mind at rest if you were to contact the Pierpont Morgan Library in New York and ask them for a good quality digital image of 'Alice at 18' and their permission to use it in your book. They own one of five known original prints of this photograph. They also own one of ten known prints of 'The Beggar Maid' (uncoloured) so you could try them for this as well. I think we would all be interested to know how they respond.

J

--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...> wrote:
>
> See, this isn't correct. It's the common misconception. If you look at it as the life of the author/artist plus 70 years only, yes. You're correct - anything he has written or photographed is in the public domain. However. Since his photography, on the whole, was really only discovered more recently, and many of the photographs remained in private collections, many of them were not "published." Yes, anything used in the early biographies, or published in any form prior to 1978, is definitely public domain. However, the loophole in the US copyright law is that if a work, even if it had been created 200 years ago, never was published prior to 1978, the owner had until 2002 to publish it and protect the rights through 2047. If the owner did not, then it, too, fell into public domain. And Carroll's executors, apparently, got busy and gathered up many of these photographs previously held privately, published them prior to the end of 2002 - and now they are protected through 2047.
>
> This is the most definite information I've found, both on sites that spell out copyright law, and the book, "Permissions, A Survival Guide." The latter book specifically cites the Carroll photographs as an example of someone being very canny in securing rights during the grace period of 1978-2002.
>
> Melanie
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: mahendra373
> To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 2:28 PM
> Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Photo copyright info
>
>
>
>
>
> Keith is correct. CLD is entirely public domain world-wide owing to time elapsed since death date. The date of any source from which you pull your image is immaterial since only CLD held the copyright. Only CLD could ever hold a copyright to any image or text, if in theory you could spirit away a museum's print or neg of one his photos, you can reproduce it as much as you like.
>
> The real problem for you will be obtaining good quality prints to use for book (I assume) reproduction. That does not involve copyright, merely negotiation to reproduce someone's reproduction of a public domain image.
>
> BTW, be careful, UK/Canada/European vs US copyrights can vary. It's the iron fist of Mickey Mouse that's responsible for that.
>
> --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@> wrote:
> >
> > Melanie,
> >
> > they are kidding you! Any print of a photo in an album is simply that, a print, and as such does not convey copyright to the receiver of the print. If I have a print of the Mona Lisa - does that convey any copyright to me? I'm sure you'll agree it doesn't.
> >
> > The images that were published in 2002 were from albums in the USA and the universities there did not have copyright over the images so cannot claim such now. If copyright had existed it would have rested with the Dodgson family and therefore the universities should not have included them in books as they were in breach of the copyright rules they are now apparently trying to foister onto others! I took this up with the curator at the National Museum of Photography and they concur, no copyright exists over any of CLD's images. If anyone has a print and it is unique such that they wish to retain the image solely for themselves then the only course of action is to lock it in a safe.
> >
> > If it is any help the image of Alice Liddell aged 18 was published in books long before 2002.
> >
> > Keith
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Melanie Benjamin
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 7:38 PM
> > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To clarify - after re-reading more carefully - if any of his photographs were not published prior to 2002, and were included in the published works of that year, they are not in the public domain. If the photographs were published earlier - for example, the famous one of Alice Liddell as the beggar girl was - they are in the public domain. The point is that when those 2 collections of his photographs were published in 2002, they consisted of many photographs that had not been published before, and so those photographs are now protected.
> >
> > Which means I have no idea whether or not the one of 18-year-old Alice Liddell is protected, now!
> >
> > Melanie Benjamin
> > ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Melanie Benjamin
> > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 1:30 PM
> > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
> >
> >
> >
> > Interesting information that says many of Dodgson's photographs are not in the public domain, having been republished prior to the end of 2002, when the newest copyright laws (life of artist plus 70 years, or until 2002, whichever came first, for many older artists) too effect. This says that most of them, then, are still protected by his executors -
> > http://books.google.com/books?id=6y-QVFerLTMC&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=Charles+Dodgson+photographs+in+public+domain&source=bl&ots=GZuFGKQc2b&sig=TPe-FEHSngHwepMNlIHjOenX5po&hl=en&ei=tG4lStP1K9_elQf1w6nYBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA22,M1
> >
> > (Hope this link works; it's to a page in a book available on Google Search called "Permissions, a survival guide."
> >
> > Melanie Benjamin
> > ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, 2010
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Keith
> > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:38 PM
> > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
> >
> >
> >
> > Melanie,
> >
> > None of CLD's images are subject to copyright - all are in the public domain.
> >
> > Books that assert copyright are lying to you - only the author's text is in fact able to be copyrighted. Just don't quote them is my advice!
> >
> > Keith
> >
> >
> > From: Melanie Benjamin
> > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
> > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome. Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
> >
> > My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.) The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so. Still, I need to be certain. I'm still researching the later photograph. If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it.
> >
> > (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago. Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)
> >
> > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
> >
>


Reply | Messages in this Topic (19)
#15185 From: "oldjoesoap" <oldjoesoap@...>
Date: Thu Jun 4, 2009 3:17 pm
Subject: Re: Photo copyright info 		oldjoesoap
Send Email Send Email
  
Melanie,

Several newspaper photos of Alice appeared in 1932 when she went to America to
celebrate LC's centenary, her own eightieth birthday, and the seventieth
anniversary of the first telling of Alice's Adventures Underground.  She was
only 79 when she received her honorary doctorate at Columbia University but 80
when she went to call on Abraham Rosenbach, to whom she had sold her little book
- for what turned out to be a bargain price - in 1928.  Dr. Rosenbach had some
portrait photos taken in honour of her visit and they are now in the Rosenbach
Museum in Philadelphia.  You might want to take a look.  I hope this url works!:

http://rosenbach.pastperfect-online.com/32739cgi/mweb.exe?request=record;id=DFBF\
3F43-1203-476F-9728-987030537960;type=102

J

--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...>
wrote:
>
> That's a good idea.  I did just contact the National Gallery in London, which
also has a print of Alice at 18, asking the same thing - how much they would
charge for permission to use the image from their site.  (I know they do charge;
they made it clear that while the original photo is out of copyright, most
copies and scans of the photograph, including the one on their site and in their
collection, are not.)
>
> The beggar girl photo is available on Wikipedia Commons, so I thought I could
use that image.  However, Alice at 18 is not on that site.
>
> It all seems so very simple, at first glance.  Of course, nothing ever is!
>
>>   > > From: Melanie Benjamin
>   > > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
>   > > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
>   > > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as
I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January
with Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of
a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome. Nevertheless,
I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
>   > >
>   > > My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3
separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.) The
novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So there are
3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last
one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then
the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a
newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar child photo is in the
public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she
was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years)
would make it appear so. Still, I need to be certain. I'm still researching the
later photograph. If anyone here knows more about where I can find this
information, I would appreciate it.
>   > >
>   > > (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also
published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago. Mine
is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of
view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)
>   > >
>   > > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
>   > >
>   >
>

Reply | Messages in this Topic (19)
#15186 From: "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...>
Date: Thu Jun 4, 2009 4:02 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Photo copyright info 		melaniebenja...
Send Email Send Email
 
Joe, thank you - I knew of this photo, and in fact had found the collection it was in on this site, but had somehow missed the photo itself.  It, too, is in a collection at the Morgan Library as well, and I emailed them yesterday about it.  I'll email the Rosenbach site as well. 
 
I will have quite a few people to thank from this site, in the book!
 
Melanie
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: oldjoesoap
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 10:17 AM
Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Photo copyright info

Melanie,

Several newspaper photos of Alice appeared in 1932 when she went to America to celebrate LC's centenary, her own eightieth birthday, and the seventieth anniversary of the first telling of Alice's Adventures Underground. She was only 79 when she received her honorary doctorate at Columbia University but 80 when she went to call on Abraham Rosenbach, to whom she had sold her little book - for what turned out to be a bargain price - in 1928. Dr. Rosenbach had some portrait photos taken in honour of her visit and they are now in the Rosenbach Museum in Philadelphia. You might want to take a look. I hope this url works!:

http://rosenbach.pastperfect-online.com/32739cgi/mweb.exe?request=record;id=DFBF3F43-1203-476F-9728-987030537960;type=102

J

--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...> wrote:
>
> That's a good idea. I did just contact the National Gallery in London, which also has a print of Alice at 18, asking the same thing - how much they would charge for permission to use the image from their site. (I know they do charge; they made it clear that while the original photo is out of copyright, most copies and scans of the photograph, including the one on their site and in their collection, are not.)
>
> The beggar girl photo is available on Wikipedia Commons, so I thought I could use that image. However, Alice at 18 is not on that site.
>
> It all seems so very simple, at first glance. Of course, nothing ever is!
>
>> > > From: Melanie Benjamin
> > > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
> > > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome. Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
> > >
> > > My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.) The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so. Still, I need to be certain. I'm still researching the later photograph. If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it.
> > >
> > > (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago. Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)
> > >
> > > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
> > >
> >
>


Reply | Messages in this Topic (19)
#15187 From: "Keith" <keith@...>
Date: Thu Jun 4, 2009 5:42 pm
Subject: Re: Fwd: Digest Number 2615 		keith_alan_w...
Send Email Send Email
 
Robert,
 
Just wondered if you had not got my request for evidence about the estrangement of Liddell from his parents?
 
Keith

Robert,
 
Having read Liddell's biography and seen other evidence if you are correct about an estrangement then many letters must have been 'invented' and home visits manufactured in order to cover up an estrangement from his family. It also does not fit with the fact that Liddell wrote in 1856 to his mother thanking her for the present for the library and wrote a couple of weeks later about the fact that the Deanery was complete.
 
The mirror at the house in Charlton Kings is huge and one wonders if it was transported down from the north. As you say, it suffers from decay now, as do many mirrors of that age, but whether it did in 1856 is debatable.
 
Have you any proof of a rift between Liddell and his parents? He appears to have made many visits to his home in Easington, certainly as many as any student in pre-railway days could have made.
 
Keith
 
 
 
 
 
 

Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2009 9:36 PM
Subject: Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2615

Dear LC People,

Yes, Alice was 7 and went to her grandfather's house in Charlton Kings, Cheltenham. Her patriarchal grandparents had recently moved down from their rectory near Newcastle Upon Tyne, hence ending the estrangement of their son. On the journey a huge mirror, which hung in their drawing room and inspired the 'looking glass' story, did get damaged on the journey. Instead of being the shiny mirror it was when it left the rectory, it developed 'snowy' spots and brownish marks. That explains the 'snow' mystery.
For other unexplained details of Alice and her life, and from where I obtained most of my info, you might want to read my book, "Under His Hat," the true story of Alice and her real life hatter, available at at amazon.com or www.strategicbookpublishing.com/underhishat.html
Regards
Robert Batey
 


 
On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 8:01 AM, <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Messages In This Digest (5 Messages)

Messages

1a.

Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?

Posted by: "jenny2write" woolf@jabberwock.co.uk   jenny2write

Tue May 26, 2009 4:09 am (PDT)



Yep have done 1859 which would have been the year Alice was 7 and a half exactly. Cloudy and a bit rainy, only snow that fell was on the 29th and there wasn't much of that.
I suppose it could just have been allegorical snow

--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, Michael Everson <everson@...> wrote:
>
> Check the weather for the late 19th century?
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>

1b.

Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?

Posted by: "Arne Moll" arnemail@dds.nl   tokkietor2003

Tue May 26, 2009 4:19 am (PDT)



Hi Jenny,

Or it could just have been fictional snow, what with the book being a
work a fiction, no? :-)

Best regards,
Arne

Quoting jenny2write <woolf@jabberwock.co.uk>:

> Yep have done 1859 which would have been the year Alice was 7 and a
> half exactly. Cloudy and a bit rainy, only snow that fell was on
> the 29th and there wasn't much of that.
> I suppose it could just have been allegorical snow
>
>
> --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, Michael Everson <everson@...> wrote:
>>
>> Check the weather for the late 19th century?
>>
>> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>>
>
>
>

1c.

Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?

Posted by: "Michael Everson" everson@evertype.com   evertype

Tue May 26, 2009 4:43 am (PDT)



On 26 May 2009, at 12:08, jenny2write wrote:

> I suppose it could just have been allegorical snow

Or aspirational snow.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

1d.

Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?

Posted by: "pleasanceone" haddoxeyes@bigpond.com   pleasanceone

Tue May 26, 2009 6:50 am (PDT)



Hi Jenny,

They didn't have a Global Financial Crisis then, so snow was cheaper to make and therefore more abundant and people could afford to have it covering everything in a lovely white blanket. Today things are going up in price, and what with the cost of labour and the need to use less energy and of course less water....well snow just isn't as economically viable as it once was. They also didn't have global warming yet, to melt the smaller quantity of snow that is produced each year.
Probably why snow didn't catch on very much in this part of the world...

Ciao
Deb

--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, JEREMY BROWNING <jeremy.browning@...> wrote:
>
> Suspect you may be younger than some of us, Jenny - I'm 52 and pretty certain I can recall a couple of snowy bonfire nights in the mid-60s. But maybe I'm wrong.
>
>  
>
> J.
>
> --- On Tue, 26/5/09, jenny2write <woolf@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: jenny2write <woolf@...>
> Subject: [lewiscarroll] Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
> To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, 26 May, 2009, 9:16 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Through the Looking Glass is set on November 4th (the boys are gathering wood for the bonfire, and it's also the day when Alice is 7 and a half exactly)
>
> So why is it snowing hard? I don't remember it EVER snowing this early in the year, and certainly not snowing hard.
>
> Jenny Woolf
> www.jabberwock. co.uk/blog
>

1e.

Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?

Posted by: "jenny2write" woolf@jabberwock.co.uk   jenny2write

Tue May 26, 2009 3:34 pm (PDT)



--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, Arne Moll <arnemail@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Jenny,
>
> Or it could just have been fictional snow, what with the book being a
> work a fiction, no? :-)
>
> Best regards,
> Arne

Fiction? Omigod!

Now you mention it....

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Reply | Messages in this Topic (3)
#15188 From: Robert Batey <londnbob@...>
Date: Mon Jun 8, 2009 1:05 pm
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2621 		londnbob67
Send Email Send Email
 
Keith,
My evidence that Henry George Liddell was estranged by his parents came from my father and grandfather, besides a contact who must unfortunately remain confidential. My father and grandfather had pleanty of knowledge of the Liddells, which becomes understandable if you read my book, 'Under His Hat', available through www.amazon.com or www.strategicbookpublishing.com/underhishat.html  , where my royalties go to children's homes (sorry about the plug, but it is relevant).
Also, you can find details of Dean Henry George's Liddell via Who's Who, in which he is described as the estranged son of Rector Henry George Liddell and Charlotte Lyon (of the Bowes Lyon lot).
Of course, there was some contact between Henry and his parents, but it was minimal - until his parents became so proud of their genius son, his fame, and his contribution to English education and the arts, that it eventually put everything right.
Regarding the 'snow' in the huge mirror, of 'Looking Glass' fame, my sources above also confirmed that most of Alice's grandparent's personal effects, furniture, and the now famous looking glass, did indeed come from Easington Rectory to Alice's grandparents house 'Hetton Lawn', Charlton Kings, near Cheltenham. On the journey, probably by weather exposure, the 'snow', and some brownish spots, appeared on the mirror.
Best regards
Robert H. Batey

On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 6:47 AM, <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Messages In This Digest (3 Messages)

1a.
Re: Photo copyright info From: oldjoesoap
1b.
Re: Photo copyright info From: Melanie Benjamin
2a.
Re: Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2615 From: Keith

Messages

1a.

Re: Photo copyright info

Posted by: "oldjoesoap" oldjoesoap@...   oldjoesoap

Thu Jun 4, 2009 8:17 am (PDT)



Melanie,

Several newspaper photos of Alice appeared in 1932 when she went to America to celebrate LC's centenary, her own eightieth birthday, and the seventieth anniversary of the first telling of Alice's Adventures Underground. She was only 79 when she received her honorary doctorate at Columbia University but 80 when she went to call on Abraham Rosenbach, to whom she had sold her little book - for what turned out to be a bargain price - in 1928. Dr. Rosenbach had some portrait photos taken in honour of her visit and they are now in the Rosenbach Museum in Philadelphia. You might want to take a look. I hope this url works!:

http://rosenbach.pastperfect-online.com/32739cgi/mweb.exe?request=record;id=DFBF3F43-1203-476F-9728-987030537960;type=102

J

--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...> wrote:
>
> That's a good idea. I did just contact the National Gallery in London, which also has a print of Alice at 18, asking the same thing - how much they would charge for permission to use the image from their site. (I know they do charge; they made it clear that while the original photo is out of copyright, most copies and scans of the photograph, including the one on their site and in their collection, are not.)
>
> The beggar girl photo is available on Wikipedia Commons, so I thought I could use that image. However, Alice at 18 is not on that site.
>
> It all seems so very simple, at first glance. Of course, nothing ever is!
>
>> > > From: Melanie Benjamin
> > > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
> > > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome. Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
> > >
> > > My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.) The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so. Still, I need to be certain. I'm still researching the later photograph. If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it.
> > >
> > > (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago. Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)
> > >
> > > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
> > >
> >
>

1b.

Re: Photo copyright info

Posted by: "Melanie Benjamin" melaniebenjamin@...   melaniebenjamin@...

Thu Jun 4, 2009 9:02 am (PDT)



Joe, thank you - I knew of this photo, and in fact had found the collection it was in on this site, but had somehow missed the photo itself. It, too, is in a collection at the Morgan Library as well, and I emailed them yesterday about it. I'll email the Rosenbach site as well.

I will have quite a few people to thank from this site, in the book!

Melanie

----- Original Message -----
From: oldjoesoap
To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 10:17 AM
Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Photo copyright info

Melanie,

Several newspaper photos of Alice appeared in 1932 when she went to America to celebrate LC's centenary, her own eightieth birthday, and the seventieth anniversary of the first telling of Alice's Adventures Underground. She was only 79 when she received her honorary doctorate at Columbia University but 80 when she went to call on Abraham Rosenbach, to whom she had sold her little book - for what turned out to be a bargain price - in 1928. Dr. Rosenbach had some portrait photos taken in honour of her visit and they are now in the Rosenbach Museum in Philadelphia. You might want to take a look. I hope this url works!:

http://rosenbach.pastperfect-online.com/32739cgi/mweb.exe?request=record;id=DFBF3F43-1203-476F-9728-987030537960;type=102

J

--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...> wrote:
>
> That's a good idea. I did just contact the National Gallery in London, which also has a print of Alice at 18, asking the same thing - how much they would charge for permission to use the image from their site. (I know they do charge; they made it clear that while the original photo is out of copyright, most copies and scans of the photograph, including the one on their site and in their collection, are not.)
>
> The beggar girl photo is available on Wikipedia Commons, so I thought I could use that image. However, Alice at 18 is not on that site.
>
> It all seems so very simple, at first glance. Of course, nothing ever is!
>
>> > > From: Melanie Benjamin
> > > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
> > > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome. Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
> > >
> > > My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.) The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so. Still, I need to be certain. I'm still researching the later photograph. If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it.
> > >
> > > (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago. Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)
> > >
> > > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
> > >
> >
>

2a.

Re: Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2615

Posted by: "Keith" keith@...   keith_alan_wright

Thu Jun 4, 2009 10:42 am (PDT)



Robert,

Just wondered if you had not got my request for evidence about the estrangement of Liddell from his parents?

Keith

Robert,

Having read Liddell's biography and seen other evidence if you are correct about an estrangement then many letters must have been 'invented' and home visits manufactured in order to cover up an estrangement from his family. It also does not fit with the fact that Liddell wrote in 1856 to his mother thanking her for the present for the library and wrote a couple of weeks later about the fact that the Deanery was complete.

The mirror at the house in Charlton Kings is huge and one wonders if it was transported down from the north. As you say, it suffers from decay now, as do many mirrors of that age, but whether it did in 1856 is debatable.

Have you any proof of a rift between Liddell and his parents? He appears to have made many visits to his home in Easington, certainly as many as any student in pre-railway days could have made.

Keith

From: Robert Batey
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2009 9:36 PM
To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2615

Dear LC People,

Yes, Alice was 7 and went to her grandfather's house in Charlton Kings, Cheltenham. Her patriarchal grandparents had recently moved down from their rectory near Newcastle Upon Tyne, hence ending the estrangement of their son. On the journey a huge mirror, which hung in their drawing room and inspired the 'looking glass' story, did get damaged on the journey. Instead of being the shiny mirror it was when it left the rectory, it developed 'snowy' spots and brownish marks. That explains the 'snow' mystery.
For other unexplained details of Alice and her life, and from where I obtained most of my info, you might want to read my book, "Under His Hat," the true story of Alice and her real life hatter, available at at amazon.com or www.strategicbookpublishing.com/underhishat.html
Regards
Robert Batey

On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 8:01 AM, <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Lewis Carroll discussion
Messages In This Digest (5 Messages)
1a.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: jenny2write
1b.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: Arne Moll
1c.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: Michael Everson
1d.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: pleasanceone
1e.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: jenny2write
View All Topics | Create New Topic
Messages
1a.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
Posted by: "jenny2write" woolf@... jenny2write
Tue May 26, 2009 4:09 am (PDT)

Yep have done 1859 which would have been the year Alice was 7 and a half exactly. Cloudy and a bit rainy, only snow that fell was on the 29th and there wasn't much of that.
I suppose it could just have been allegorical snow

--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, Michael Everson <everson@...> wrote:
>
> Check the weather for the late 19th century?
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>

Back to top
Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (8)
1b.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
Posted by: "Arne Moll" arnemail@... tokkietor2003
Tue May 26, 2009 4:19 am (PDT)

Hi Jenny,

Or it could just have been fictional snow, what with the book being a
work a fiction, no? :-)

Best regards,
Arne

Quoting jenny2write <woolf@...>:

> Yep have done 1859 which would have been the year Alice was 7 and a
> half exactly. Cloudy and a bit rainy, only snow that fell was on
> the 29th and there wasn't much of that.
> I suppose it could just have been allegorical snow
>
>
> --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, Michael Everson <everson@...> wrote:
>>
>> Check the weather for the late 19th century?
>>
>> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>>
>
>
>

Back to top
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Messages in this topic (8)
1c.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
Posted by: "Michael Everson" everson@... evertype
Tue May 26, 2009 4:43 am (PDT)

On 26 May 2009, at 12:08, jenny2write wrote:

> I suppose it could just have been allegorical snow

Or aspirational snow.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

Back to top
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Messages in this topic (8)
1d.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
Posted by: "pleasanceone" haddoxeyes@... pleasanceone
Tue May 26, 2009 6:50 am (PDT)

Hi Jenny,

They didn't have a Global Financial Crisis then, so snow was cheaper to make and therefore more abundant and people could afford to have it covering everything in a lovely white blanket. Today things are going up in price, and what with the cost of labour and the need to use less energy and of course less water....well snow just isn't as economically viable as it once was. They also didn't have global warming yet, to melt the smaller quantity of snow that is produced each year.
Probably why snow didn't catch on very much in this part of the world...

Ciao
Deb

--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, JEREMY BROWNING <jeremy.browning@...> wrote:
>
> Suspect you may be younger than some of us, Jenny - I'm 52 and pretty certain I can recall a couple of snowy bonfire nights in the mid-60s. But maybe I'm wrong.
>
>
>
> J.
>
> --- On Tue, 26/5/09, jenny2write <woolf@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: jenny2write <woolf@...>
> Subject: [lewiscarroll] Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
> To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, 26 May, 2009, 9:16 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Through the Looking Glass is set on November 4th (the boys are gathering wood for the bonfire, and it's also the day when Alice is 7 and a half exactly)
>
> So why is it snowing hard? I don't remember it EVER snowing this early in the year, and certainly not snowing hard.
>
> Jenny Woolf
> www.jabberwock. co.uk/blog
>

Back to top
Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (8)
1e.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
Posted by: "jenny2write" woolf@... jenny2write
Tue May 26, 2009 3:34 pm (PDT)

--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, Arne Moll <arnemail@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Jenny,
>
> Or it could just have been fictional snow, what with the book being a
> work a fiction, no? :-)
>
> Best regards,
> Arne

Fiction? Omigod!

Now you mention it....

Back to top
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Messages in this topic (8)
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Reply | Messages in this Topic (4)
#15189 From: "Keith" <keith@...>
Date: Mon Jun 8, 2009 1:33 pm
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2621 		keith_alan_w...
Send Email Send Email
 
Robert,
 
ignoring hearsay, which is not valid when making such a claim, the documentary evidence points to H.G. Liddell being in contact with his parents on an ordinary son-parent basis throughout his life. Are you saying that this evidence was manufactured? A very odd thing to do, invent letters to parents when all that is needed is just not to mention the parents.
 
What date was the Who's Who entry you mention? Who's Who was not published until 1849 and Coffee Johnny was born in 1828. By the time Who's Who came into being Liddell was headmaster of Westminster school (1846- 1855) and had been appointed domestic chaplain to Prince Albert (1845) and yet nobody but the editor of Who's Who knew he was estranged from his parents or why?
 
I have read your book, that is why I am seeking proper evidence for what you are saying!
 
Keith
 
 

Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2621

Keith,
My evidence that Henry George Liddell was estranged by his parents came from my father and grandfather, besides a contact who must unfortunately remain confidential. My father and grandfather had pleanty of knowledge of the Liddells, which becomes understandable if you read my book, 'Under His Hat', available through www.amazon.com or www.strategicbookpublishing.com/underhishat.html  , where my royalties go to children's homes (sorry about the plug, but it is relevant).
Also, you can find details of Dean Henry George's Liddell via Who's Who, in which he is described as the estranged son of Rector Henry George Liddell and Charlotte Lyon (of the Bowes Lyon lot).
Of course, there was some contact between Henry and his parents, but it was minimal - until his parents became so proud of their genius son, his fame, and his contribution to English education and the arts, that it eventually put everything right.
Regarding the 'snow' in the huge mirror, of 'Looking Glass' fame, my sources above also confirmed that most of Alice's grandparent's personal effects, furniture, and the now famous looking glass, did indeed come from Easington Rectory to Alice's grandparents house 'Hetton Lawn', Charlton Kings, near Cheltenham. On the journey, probably by weather exposure, the 'snow', and some brownish spots, appeared on the mirror.
Best regards
Robert H. Batey

On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 6:47 AM, <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Messages In This Digest (3 Messages)

1a.
Re: Photo copyright info From: oldjoesoap
1b.
Re: Photo copyright info From: Melanie Benjamin
2a.
Re: Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2615 From: Keith

Messages

1a.

Re: Photo copyright info

Posted by: "oldjoesoap" oldjoesoap@yahoo.co.uk   oldjoesoap

Thu Jun 4, 2009 8:17 am (PDT)



Melanie,

Several newspaper photos of Alice appeared in 1932 when she went to America to celebrate LC's centenary, her own eightieth birthday, and the seventieth anniversary of the first telling of Alice's Adventures Underground. She was only 79 when she received her honorary doctorate at Columbia University but 80 when she went to call on Abraham Rosenbach, to whom she had sold her little book - for what turned out to be a bargain price - in 1928. Dr. Rosenbach had some portrait photos taken in honour of her visit and they are now in the Rosenbach Museum in Philadelphia. You might want to take a look. I hope this url works!:

http://rosenbach.pastperfect-online.com/32739cgi/mweb.exe?request=record;id=DFBF3F43-1203-476F-9728-987030537960;type=102

J

--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...> wrote:
>
> That's a good idea. I did just contact the National Gallery in London, which also has a print of Alice at 18, asking the same thing - how much they would charge for permission to use the image from their site. (I know they do charge; they made it clear that while the original photo is out of copyright, most copies and scans of the photograph, including the one on their site and in their collection, are not.)
>
> The beggar girl photo is available on Wikipedia Commons, so I thought I could use that image. However, Alice at 18 is not on that site.
>
> It all seems so very simple, at first glance. Of course, nothing ever is!
>
>> > > From: Melanie Benjamin
> > > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
> > > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome. Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
> > >
> > > My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.) The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so. Still, I need to be certain. I'm still researching the later photograph. If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it.
> > >
> > > (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago. Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)
> > >
> > > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
> > >
> >
>

1b.

Re: Photo copyright info

Posted by: "Melanie Benjamin" melaniebenjamin@earthlink.net   melaniebenjamin@rocketmail.com

Thu Jun 4, 2009 9:02 am (PDT)



Joe, thank you - I knew of this photo, and in fact had found the collection it was in on this site, but had somehow missed the photo itself. It, too, is in a collection at the Morgan Library as well, and I emailed them yesterday about it. I'll email the Rosenbach site as well.

I will have quite a few people to thank from this site, in the book!

Melanie

----- Original Message -----
From: oldjoesoap
To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 10:17 AM
Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Photo copyright info

Melanie,

Several newspaper photos of Alice appeared in 1932 when she went to America to celebrate LC's centenary, her own eightieth birthday, and the seventieth anniversary of the first telling of Alice's Adventures Underground. She was only 79 when she received her honorary doctorate at Columbia University but 80 when she went to call on Abraham Rosenbach, to whom she had sold her little book - for what turned out to be a bargain price - in 1928. Dr. Rosenbach had some portrait photos taken in honour of her visit and they are now in the Rosenbach Museum in Philadelphia. You might want to take a look. I hope this url works!:

http://rosenbach.pastperfect-online.com/32739cgi/mweb.exe?request=record;id=DFBF3F43-1203-476F-9728-987030537960;type=102

J

--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...> wrote:
>
> That's a good idea. I did just contact the National Gallery in London, which also has a print of Alice at 18, asking the same thing - how much they would charge for permission to use the image from their site. (I know they do charge; they made it clear that while the original photo is out of copyright, most copies and scans of the photograph, including the one on their site and in their collection, are not.)
>
> The beggar girl photo is available on Wikipedia Commons, so I thought I could use that image. However, Alice at 18 is not on that site.
>
> It all seems so very simple, at first glance. Of course, nothing ever is!
>
>> > > From: Melanie Benjamin
> > > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
> > > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome. Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
> > >
> > > My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.) The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so. Still, I need to be certain. I'm still researching the later photograph. If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it.
> > >
> > > (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago. Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)
> > >
> > > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
> > >
> >
>

2a.

Re: Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2615

Posted by: "Keith" keith@cheshire46.freeserve.co.uk   keith_alan_wright

Thu Jun 4, 2009 10:42 am (PDT)



Robert,

Just wondered if you had not got my request for evidence about the estrangement of Liddell from his parents?

Keith

Robert,

Having read Liddell's biography and seen other evidence if you are correct about an estrangement then many letters must have been 'invented' and home visits manufactured in order to cover up an estrangement from his family. It also does not fit with the fact that Liddell wrote in 1856 to his mother thanking her for the present for the library and wrote a couple of weeks later about the fact that the Deanery was complete.

The mirror at the house in Charlton Kings is huge and one wonders if it was transported down from the north. As you say, it suffers from decay now, as do many mirrors of that age, but whether it did in 1856 is debatable.

Have you any proof of a rift between Liddell and his parents? He appears to have made many visits to his home in Easington, certainly as many as any student in pre-railway days could have made.

Keith

From: Robert Batey
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2009 9:36 PM
To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2615

Dear LC People,

Yes, Alice was 7 and went to her grandfather's house in Charlton Kings, Cheltenham. Her patriarchal grandparents had recently moved down from their rectory near Newcastle Upon Tyne, hence ending the estrangement of their son. On the journey a huge mirror, which hung in their drawing room and inspired the 'looking glass' story, did get damaged on the journey. Instead of being the shiny mirror it was when it left the rectory, it developed 'snowy' spots and brownish marks. That explains the 'snow' mystery.
For other unexplained details of Alice and her life, and from where I obtained most of my info, you might want to read my book, "Under His Hat," the true story of Alice and her real life hatter, available at at amazon.com or www.strategicbookpublishing.com/underhishat.html
Regards
Robert Batey

On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 8:01 AM, <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Lewis Carroll discussion
Messages In This Digest (5 Messages)
1a.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: jenny2write
1b.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: Arne Moll
1c.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: Michael Everson
1d.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: pleasanceone
1e.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: jenny2write
View All Topics | Create New Topic
Messages
1a.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
Posted by: "jenny2write" woolf@jabberwock.co.uk jenny2write
Tue May 26, 2009 4:09 am (PDT)

Yep have done 1859 which would have been the year Alice was 7 and a half exactly. Cloudy and a bit rainy, only snow that fell was on the 29th and there wasn't much of that.
I suppose it could just have been allegorical snow

--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, Michael Everson <everson@...> wrote:
>
> Check the weather for the late 19th century?
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>

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Messages in this topic (8)
1b.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
Posted by: "Arne Moll" arnemail@dds.nl tokkietor2003
Tue May 26, 2009 4:19 am (PDT)

Hi Jenny,

Or it could just have been fictional snow, what with the book being a
work a fiction, no? :-)

Best regards,
Arne

Quoting jenny2write <woolf@jabberwock.co.uk>:

> Yep have done 1859 which would have been the year Alice was 7 and a
> half exactly. Cloudy and a bit rainy, only snow that fell was on
> the 29th and there wasn't much of that.
> I suppose it could just have been allegorical snow
>
>
> --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, Michael Everson <everson@...> wrote:
>>
>> Check the weather for the late 19th century?
>>
>> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>>
>
>
>

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Messages in this topic (8)
1c.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
Posted by: "Michael Everson" everson@evertype.com evertype
Tue May 26, 2009 4:43 am (PDT)

On 26 May 2009, at 12:08, jenny2write wrote:

> I suppose it could just have been allegorical snow

Or aspirational snow.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

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Messages in this topic (8)
1d.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
Posted by: "pleasanceone" haddoxeyes@bigpond.com pleasanceone
Tue May 26, 2009 6:50 am (PDT)

Hi Jenny,

They didn't have a Global Financial Crisis then, so snow was cheaper to make and therefore more abundant and people could afford to have it covering everything in a lovely white blanket. Today things are going up in price, and what with the cost of labour and the need to use less energy and of course less water....well snow just isn't as economically viable as it once was. They also didn't have global warming yet, to melt the smaller quantity of snow that is produced each year.
Probably why snow didn't catch on very much in this part of the world...

Ciao
Deb

--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, JEREMY BROWNING <jeremy.browning@...> wrote:
>
> Suspect you may be younger than some of us, Jenny - I'm 52 and pretty certain I can recall a couple of snowy bonfire nights in the mid-60s. But maybe I'm wrong.
>
>
>
> J.
>
> --- On Tue, 26/5/09, jenny2write <woolf@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: jenny2write <woolf@...>
> Subject: [lewiscarroll] Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
> To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, 26 May, 2009, 9:16 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Through the Looking Glass is set on November 4th (the boys are gathering wood for the bonfire, and it's also the day when Alice is 7 and a half exactly)
>
> So why is it snowing hard? I don't remember it EVER snowing this early in the year, and certainly not snowing hard.
>
> Jenny Woolf
> www.jabberwock. co.uk/blog
>

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Messages in this topic (8)
1e.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
Posted by: "jenny2write" woolf@jabberwock.co.uk jenny2write
Tue May 26, 2009 3:34 pm (PDT)

--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, Arne Moll <arnemail@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Jenny,
>
> Or it could just have been fictional snow, what with the book being a
> work a fiction, no? :-)
>
> Best regards,
> Arne

Fiction? Omigod!

Now you mention it....

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Reply | Messages in this Topic (4)
#15190 From: "oldjoesoap" <oldjoesoap@...>
Date: Mon Jun 8, 2009 4:40 pm
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2621 		oldjoesoap
Send Email Send Email
  
Although Who's Who was published in 1849 onwards, it consisted of an Almanac and
a series of lists - Royal Household, Navy Officers, Judiciary etc.  By 1857,
Henry Liddell gets two entries, one as a Dean of a cathedral, and one as the
head of an Oxford College.  No biographical details are included. 
Autobiographical details were not included until 1897 so Henry just squeezed in.
I don't have a copy of the 1897 edition, but it seems rather unlikely that Henry
would have confided details of a bust-up and reconciliation which had occurred
so many years before.  I wonder if we should be looking for a different book.
J

--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@...> wrote:
>
> Robert,
>
> ignoring hearsay, which is not valid when making such a claim, the documentary
evidence points to H.G. Liddell being in contact with his parents on an ordinary
son-parent basis throughout his life. Are you saying that this evidence was
manufactured? A very odd thing to do, invent letters to parents when all that is
needed is just not to mention the parents.
>
> What date was the Who's Who entry you mention? Who's Who was not published
until 1849 and Coffee Johnny was born in 1828. By the time Who's Who came into
being Liddell was headmaster of Westminster school (1846- 1855) and had been
appointed domestic chaplain to Prince Albert (1845) and yet nobody but the
editor of Who's Who knew he was estranged from his parents or why?
>
> I have read your book, that is why I am seeking proper evidence for what you
are saying!
>
> Keith
>
>
>
>
> From: Robert Batey
> Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 2:05 PM
> To: No Reply
> Cc: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2621
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Keith,
> My evidence that Henry George Liddell was estranged by his parents came from
my father and grandfather, besides a contact who must unfortunately remain
confidential. My father and grandfather had pleanty of knowledge of the
Liddells, which becomes understandable if you read my book, 'Under His Hat',
available through www.amazon.com or
www.strategicbookpublishing.com/underhishat.html  , where my royalties go to
children's homes (sorry about the plug, but it is relevant).
> Also, you can find details of Dean Henry George's Liddell via Who's Who, in
which he is described as the estranged son of Rector Henry George Liddell and
Charlotte Lyon (of the Bowes Lyon lot).
> Of course, there was some contact between Henry and his parents, but it was
minimal - until his parents became so proud of their genius son, his fame, and
his contribution to English education and the arts, that it eventually put
everything right.
> Regarding the 'snow' in the huge mirror, of 'Looking Glass' fame, my sources
above also confirmed that most of Alice's grandparent's personal effects,
furniture, and the now famous looking glass, did indeed come from Easington
Rectory to Alice's grandparents house 'Hetton Lawn', Charlton Kings, near
Cheltenham. On the journey, probably by weather exposure, the 'snow', and some
brownish spots, appeared on the mirror.
> Best regards
> Robert H. Batey
>

Reply | Messages in this Topic (4)
#15191 From: Robert Batey <londnbob@...>
Date: Mon Jun 8, 2009 5:19 pm
Subject: Fwd: Digest Number 2621 		londnbob67
Send Email Send Email
 


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Robert Batey <londnbob@...>
Date: Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2621
To: No Reply <notify-dg-lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com


Keith,
My evidence that Henry George Liddell was estranged by his parents came from my father and grandfather, besides a contact who must unfortunately remain confidential. My father and grandfather had pleanty of knowledge of the Liddells, which becomes understandable if you read my book, 'Under His Hat', available through www.amazon.com or www.strategicbookpublishing.com/underhishat.html  , where my royalties go to children's homes (sorry about the plug, but it is relevant).
Also, you can find details of Dean Henry George's Liddell via Who's Who, in which he is described as the estranged son of Rector Henry George Liddell and Charlotte Lyon (of the Bowes Lyon lot).
Of course, there was some contact between Henry and his parents, but it was minimal - until his parents became so proud of their genius son, his fame, and his contribution to English education and the arts, that it eventually put everything right.
Regarding the 'snow' in the huge mirror, of 'Looking Glass' fame, my sources above also confirmed that most of Alice's grandparent's personal effects, furniture, and the now famous looking glass, did indeed come from Easington Rectory to Alice's grandparents house 'Hetton Lawn', Charlton Kings, near Cheltenham. On the journey, probably by weather exposure, the 'snow', and some brownish spots, appeared on the mirror.
Best regards
Robert H. Batey

On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 6:47 AM, <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Messages In This Digest (3 Messages)

1a.
Re: Photo copyright info From: oldjoesoap
1b.
Re: Photo copyright info From: Melanie Benjamin
2a.
Re: Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2615 From: Keith

Messages

1a.

Re: Photo copyright info

Posted by: "oldjoesoap" oldjoesoap@...   oldjoesoap

Thu Jun 4, 2009 8:17 am (PDT)



Melanie,

Several newspaper photos of Alice appeared in 1932 when she went to America to celebrate LC's centenary, her own eightieth birthday, and the seventieth anniversary of the first telling of Alice's Adventures Underground. She was only 79 when she received her honorary doctorate at Columbia University but 80 when she went to call on Abraham Rosenbach, to whom she had sold her little book - for what turned out to be a bargain price - in 1928. Dr. Rosenbach had some portrait photos taken in honour of her visit and they are now in the Rosenbach Museum in Philadelphia. You might want to take a look. I hope this url works!:

http://rosenbach.pastperfect-online.com/32739cgi/mweb.exe?request=record;id=DFBF3F43-1203-476F-9728-987030537960;type=102

J

--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...> wrote:
>
> That's a good idea. I did just contact the National Gallery in London, which also has a print of Alice at 18, asking the same thing - how much they would charge for permission to use the image from their site. (I know they do charge; they made it clear that while the original photo is out of copyright, most copies and scans of the photograph, including the one on their site and in their collection, are not.)
>
> The beggar girl photo is available on Wikipedia Commons, so I thought I could use that image. However, Alice at 18 is not on that site.
>
> It all seems so very simple, at first glance. Of course, nothing ever is!
>
>> > > From: Melanie Benjamin
> > > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
> > > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome. Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
> > >
> > > My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.) The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so. Still, I need to be certain. I'm still researching the later photograph. If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it.
> > >
> > > (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago. Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)
> > >
> > > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
> > >
> >
>

1b.

Re: Photo copyright info

Posted by: "Melanie Benjamin" melaniebenjamin@...   melaniebenjamin@...

Thu Jun 4, 2009 9:02 am (PDT)



Joe, thank you - I knew of this photo, and in fact had found the collection it was in on this site, but had somehow missed the photo itself. It, too, is in a collection at the Morgan Library as well, and I emailed them yesterday about it. I'll email the Rosenbach site as well.

I will have quite a few people to thank from this site, in the book!

Melanie

----- Original Message -----
From: oldjoesoap
To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 10:17 AM
Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Photo copyright info

Melanie,

Several newspaper photos of Alice appeared in 1932 when she went to America to celebrate LC's centenary, her own eightieth birthday, and the seventieth anniversary of the first telling of Alice's Adventures Underground. She was only 79 when she received her honorary doctorate at Columbia University but 80 when she went to call on Abraham Rosenbach, to whom she had sold her little book - for what turned out to be a bargain price - in 1928. Dr. Rosenbach had some portrait photos taken in honour of her visit and they are now in the Rosenbach Museum in Philadelphia. You might want to take a look. I hope this url works!:

http://rosenbach.pastperfect-online.com/32739cgi/mweb.exe?request=record;id=DFBF3F43-1203-476F-9728-987030537960;type=102

J

--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...> wrote:
>
> That's a good idea. I did just contact the National Gallery in London, which also has a print of Alice at 18, asking the same thing - how much they would charge for permission to use the image from their site. (I know they do charge; they made it clear that while the original photo is out of copyright, most copies and scans of the photograph, including the one on their site and in their collection, are not.)
>
> The beggar girl photo is available on Wikipedia Commons, so I thought I could use that image. However, Alice at 18 is not on that site.
>
> It all seems so very simple, at first glance. Of course, nothing ever is!
>
>> > > From: Melanie Benjamin
> > > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
> > > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome. Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
> > >
> > > My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.) The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so. Still, I need to be certain. I'm still researching the later photograph. If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it.
> > >
> > > (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago. Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)
> > >
> > > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
> > >
> >
>

2a.

Re: Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2615

Posted by: "Keith" keith@...   keith_alan_wright

Thu Jun 4, 2009 10:42 am (PDT)



Robert,

Just wondered if you had not got my request for evidence about the estrangement of Liddell from his parents?

Keith

Robert,

Having read Liddell's biography and seen other evidence if you are correct about an estrangement then many letters must have been 'invented' and home visits manufactured in order to cover up an estrangement from his family. It also does not fit with the fact that Liddell wrote in 1856 to his mother thanking her for the present for the library and wrote a couple of weeks later about the fact that the Deanery was complete.

The mirror at the house in Charlton Kings is huge and one wonders if it was transported down from the north. As you say, it suffers from decay now, as do many mirrors of that age, but whether it did in 1856 is debatable.

Have you any proof of a rift between Liddell and his parents? He appears to have made many visits to his home in Easington, certainly as many as any student in pre-railway days could have made.

Keith

From: Robert Batey
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2009 9:36 PM
To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2615

Dear LC People,

Yes, Alice was 7 and went to her grandfather's house in Charlton Kings, Cheltenham. Her patriarchal grandparents had recently moved down from their rectory near Newcastle Upon Tyne, hence ending the estrangement of their son. On the journey a huge mirror, which hung in their drawing room and inspired the 'looking glass' story, did get damaged on the journey. Instead of being the shiny mirror it was when it left the rectory, it developed 'snowy' spots and brownish marks. That explains the 'snow' mystery.
For other unexplained details of Alice and her life, and from where I obtained most of my info, you might want to read my book, "Under His Hat," the true story of Alice and her real life hatter, available at at amazon.com or www.strategicbookpublishing.com/underhishat.html
Regards
Robert Batey

On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 8:01 AM, <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Lewis Carroll discussion
Messages In This Digest (5 Messages)
1a.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: jenny2write
1b.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: Arne Moll
1c.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: Michael Everson
1d.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: pleasanceone
1e.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: jenny2write
View All Topics | Create New Topic
Messages
1a.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
Posted by: "jenny2write" woolf@... jenny2write
Tue May 26, 2009 4:09 am (PDT)

Yep have done 1859 which would have been the year Alice was 7 and a half exactly. Cloudy and a bit rainy, only snow that fell was on the 29th and there wasn't much of that.
I suppose it could just have been allegorical snow

--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, Michael Everson <everson@...> wrote:
>
> Check the weather for the late 19th century?
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>

Back to top
Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (8)
1b.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
Posted by: "Arne Moll" arnemail@... tokkietor2003
Tue May 26, 2009 4:19 am (PDT)

Hi Jenny,

Or it could just have been fictional snow, what with the book being a
work a fiction, no? :-)

Best regards,
Arne

Quoting jenny2write <woolf@...>:

> Yep have done 1859 which would have been the year Alice was 7 and a
> half exactly. Cloudy and a bit rainy, only snow that fell was on
> the 29th and there wasn't much of that.
> I suppose it could just have been allegorical snow
>
>
> --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, Michael Everson <everson@...> wrote:
>>
>> Check the weather for the late 19th century?
>>
>> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>>
>
>
>

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1c.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
Posted by: "Michael Everson" everson@... evertype
Tue May 26, 2009 4:43 am (PDT)

On 26 May 2009, at 12:08, jenny2write wrote:

> I suppose it could just have been allegorical snow

Or aspirational snow.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

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1d.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
Posted by: "pleasanceone" haddoxeyes@... pleasanceone
Tue May 26, 2009 6:50 am (PDT)

Hi Jenny,

They didn't have a Global Financial Crisis then, so snow was cheaper to make and therefore more abundant and people could afford to have it covering everything in a lovely white blanket. Today things are going up in price, and what with the cost of labour and the need to use less energy and of course less water....well snow just isn't as economically viable as it once was. They also didn't have global warming yet, to melt the smaller quantity of snow that is produced each year.
Probably why snow didn't catch on very much in this part of the world...

Ciao
Deb

--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, JEREMY BROWNING <jeremy.browning@...> wrote:
>
> Suspect you may be younger than some of us, Jenny - I'm 52 and pretty certain I can recall a couple of snowy bonfire nights in the mid-60s. But maybe I'm wrong.
>
>
>
> J.
>
> --- On Tue, 26/5/09, jenny2write <woolf@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: jenny2write <woolf@...>
> Subject: [lewiscarroll] Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
> To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, 26 May, 2009, 9:16 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Through the Looking Glass is set on November 4th (the boys are gathering wood for the bonfire, and it's also the day when Alice is 7 and a half exactly)
>
> So why is it snowing hard? I don't remember it EVER snowing this early in the year, and certainly not snowing hard.
>
> Jenny Woolf
> www.jabberwock. co.uk/blog
>

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1e.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
Posted by: "jenny2write" woolf@... jenny2write
Tue May 26, 2009 3:34 pm (PDT)

--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, Arne Moll <arnemail@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Jenny,
>
> Or it could just have been fictional snow, what with the book being a
> work a fiction, no? :-)
>
> Best regards,
> Arne

Fiction? Omigod!

Now you mention it....

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Reply | Messages in this Topic (4)
#15192 From: "jenny2write" <woolf@...>
Date: Tue Jun 9, 2009 8:26 am
Subject: Lady of the Lilacs 		jenny2write
Send Email Send Email
  
I'd be really interested to know if anyone has any ideas about the Lady of the
Lilacs - I've posted an image of it on my blog and the more I look at it the
stranger it seems. The way she is holding her hands and head makes me feel that
there must be some significance and since Hughes was a pre-raphaelite it may
hark back to conventions used in Tudor paintings. Any art experts here?

Reply | Messages in this Topic (8)
#15193 From: "jenny2write" <woolf@...>
Date: Tue Jun 9, 2009 8:27 am
Subject: Lady of the Lilacs url 		jenny2write
Send Email Send Email
  
Sorry, should have given the url which is www.jabberwock.co.uk/blog

Reply | Messages in this Topic (1)
#15194 From: Robert Batey <londnbob@...>
Date: Tue Jun 9, 2009 1:21 pm
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2622 		londnbob67
Send Email Send Email
 
Keith,
 
I cannot remember the date of the Who's Who which states Dean Henry George Liddell was estranged from his parents, but I am sure most libraries will have the version in which I actually read it.
 
I do not know how many letters may or may not have been dent between Dean Henry and his parents. Maybe you have some knowledge of that. All I can say is I have evidence of an estrangement, including Who's Who probably in your library. Of course there are degrees of estrangement, from no contact at all to some contact. If anybody knows to what degree, I would like to learn of this.
 
Robert Batey

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 6:42 AM, <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Messages In This Digest (6 Messages)

1a.
Re: Digest Number 2621 From: Robert Batey
1b.
Re: Digest Number 2621 From: Keith
1c.
Re: Digest Number 2621 From: oldjoesoap
1d.
Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2621 From: Robert Batey
2a.
Lady of the Lilacs From: jenny2write
3.
Lady of the Lilacs url From: jenny2write

Messages

1a.

Re: Digest Number 2621

Posted by: "Robert Batey" londnbob@...   londnbob67

Mon Jun 8, 2009 6:06 am (PDT)



Keith,
My evidence that Henry George Liddell was estranged by his parents came from
my father and grandfather, besides a contact who must unfortunately remain
confidential. My father and grandfather had pleanty of knowledge of the
Liddells, which becomes understandable if you read my book, 'Under His Hat',
available through www.amazon.com or
www.strategicbookpublishing.com/underhishat.html , where my royalties go to
children's homes (sorry about the plug, but it is relevant).
Also, you can find details of Dean Henry George's Liddell via Who's Who, in
which he is described as the estranged son of Rector Henry George Liddell
and Charlotte Lyon (of the Bowes Lyon lot).
Of course, there was some contact between Henry and his parents, but it
was minimal - until his parents became so proud of their genius son,
his fame, and his contribution to English education and the arts, that it
eventually put everything right.
Regarding the 'snow' in the huge mirror, of 'Looking Glass' fame, my sources
above also confirmed that most of Alice's grandparent's personal effects,
furniture, and the now famous looking glass, did indeed come from Easington
Rectory to Alice's grandparents house 'Hetton Lawn', Charlton Kings, near
Cheltenham. On the journey, probably by weather exposure, the 'snow', and
some brownish spots, appeared on the mirror.
Best regards
Robert H. Batey

On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 6:47 AM, <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> Lewis Carroll discussion
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll;_ylc=X3oDMTJhdmdudWlzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBHNlYwNoZHIEc2xrA2hwaARzdGltZQMxMjQ0MTk4ODIy>
> Messages In This Digest (3 Messages) 1a. Re: Photo copyright info<http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&view=js&name=js&ver=t5AXlufMeJI.en.&am=b3EopeS3cCHIAb0i0fQ2wjIX0VE8IA#121b007795cd849d_1a>From: oldjoesoap 1b.
> Re: Photo copyright info<http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&view=js&name=js&ver=t5AXlufMeJI.en.&am=b3EopeS3cCHIAb0i0fQ2wjIX0VE8IA#121b007795cd849d_1b>From: Melanie Benjamin 2a.
> Re: Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2615<http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&view=js&name=js&ver=t5AXlufMeJI.en.&am=b3EopeS3cCHIAb0i0fQ2wjIX0VE8IA#121b007795cd849d_2a>From: Keith
> View All Topics<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJjNTkzMTQwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawNhdHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjM-?xm=1&m=p&tidx=1>| Create
> New Topic<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJjbGwxY3IzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjM->
> Messages 1a. Re: Photo copyright info
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/message/15185;_ylc=X3oDMTJvYTRjYzhvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBG1zZ0lkAzE1MTg1BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjM-> Posted
> by: "oldjoesoap" oldjoesoap@...
> <oldjoesoap@...?Subject=+Re%3A%20Photo%20copyright%20info> oldjoesoap
> <http://profiles.yahoo.com/oldjoesoap> Thu Jun 4, 2009 8:17 am (PDT)
>
> Melanie,
>
> Several newspaper photos of Alice appeared in 1932 when she went to America
> to celebrate LC's centenary, her own eightieth birthday, and the seventieth
> anniversary of the first telling of Alice's Adventures Underground. She was
> only 79 when she received her honorary doctorate at Columbia University but
> 80 when she went to call on Abraham Rosenbach, to whom she had sold her
> little book - for what turned out to be a bargain price - in 1928. Dr.
> Rosenbach had some portrait photos taken in honour of her visit and they are
> now in the Rosenbach Museum in Philadelphia. You might want to take a look.
> I hope this url works!:
>
>
> http://rosenbach.pastperfect-online.com/32739cgi/mweb.exe?request=record;id=DFBF3F43-1203-476F-9728-987030537960;type=102
>
> J
>
> --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...> wrote:
> >
> > That's a good idea. I did just contact the National Gallery in London,
> which also has a print of Alice at 18, asking the same thing - how much they
> would charge for permission to use the image from their site. (I know they
> do charge; they made it clear that while the original photo is out of
> copyright, most copies and scans of the photograph, including the one on
> their site and in their collection, are not.)
> >
> > The beggar girl photo is available on Wikipedia Commons, so I thought I
> could use that image. However, Alice at 18 is not on that site.
> >
> > It all seems so very simple, at first glance. Of course, nothing ever is!
>
> >
> >> > > From: Melanie Benjamin
> > > > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
> > > > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as
> I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in
> January with Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as
> an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very
> welcome. Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
> > > >
> > > > My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the
> 3 separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.)
> The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So
> there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar
> child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I
> believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a
> photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar
> child photo is in the public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not
> the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of
> the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so. Still, I need to be
> certain. I'm still researching the later photograph. If anyone here knows
> more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it.
> > > >
> > > > (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also
> published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago.
> Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her
> point of view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward
> Carroll.)
> > > >
> > > > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
> Back to top
> <http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&view=js&name=js&ver=t5AXlufMeJI.en.&am=b3EopeS3cCHIAb0i0fQ2wjIX0VE8IA#121b007795cd849d_toc>
> Reply to sender
> <oldjoesoap@...?Subject=Re%3A%20Photo%20copyright%20info>| Reply
> to group
> <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com?Subject=+Re%3A%20Photo%20copyright%20info>| Reply
> via web post
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJvdjFkNTF2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBG1zZ0lkAzE1MTg1BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjM-?act=reply&messageNum=15185>
> Messages in this topic
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/message/15167;_ylc=X3oDMTM0djg3ZGF0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBG1zZ0lkAzE1MTg1BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjMEdHBjSWQDMTUxNjc->(19)
>
> 1b. Re: Photo copyright info
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/message/15186;_ylc=X3oDMTJvcDI1MXVhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBG1zZ0lkAzE1MTg2BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjM-> Posted
> by: "Melanie Benjamin" melaniebenjamin@...
> <melaniebenjamin@...?Subject=+Re%3A%20Photo%20copyright%20info>
> melaniebenjamin@...
> <http://profiles.yahoo.com/melaniebenjamin@...> Thu Jun 4, 2009
> 9:02 am (PDT)
>
> Joe, thank you - I knew of this photo, and in fact had found the collection
> it was in on this site, but had somehow missed the photo itself. It, too, is
> in a collection at the Morgan Library as well, and I emailed them yesterday
> about it. I'll email the Rosenbach site as well.
>
> I will have quite a few people to thank from this site, in the book!
>
> Melanie
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: oldjoesoap
> To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 10:17 AM
> Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Photo copyright info
>
> Melanie,
>
> Several newspaper photos of Alice appeared in 1932 when she went to America
> to celebrate LC's centenary, her own eightieth birthday, and the seventieth
> anniversary of the first telling of Alice's Adventures Underground. She was
> only 79 when she received her honorary doctorate at Columbia University but
> 80 when she went to call on Abraham Rosenbach, to whom she had sold her
> little book - for what turned out to be a bargain price - in 1928. Dr.
> Rosenbach had some portrait photos taken in honour of her visit and they are
> now in the Rosenbach Museum in Philadelphia. You might want to take a look.
> I hope this url works!:
>
>
> http://rosenbach.pastperfect-online.com/32739cgi/mweb.exe?request=record;id=DFBF3F43-1203-476F-9728-987030537960;type=102
>
> J
>
> --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...> wrote:
> >
> > That's a good idea. I did just contact the National Gallery in London,
> which also has a print of Alice at 18, asking the same thing - how much they
> would charge for permission to use the image from their site. (I know they
> do charge; they made it clear that while the original photo is out of
> copyright, most copies and scans of the photograph, including the one on
> their site and in their collection, are not.)
> >
> > The beggar girl photo is available on Wikipedia Commons, so I thought I
> could use that image. However, Alice at 18 is not on that site.
> >
> > It all seems so very simple, at first glance. Of course, nothing ever is!
>
> >
> >> > > From: Melanie Benjamin
> > > > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
> > > > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as
> I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in
> January with Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as
> an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very
> welcome. Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
> > > >
> > > > My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the
> 3 separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.)
> The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So
> there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar
> child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I
> believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a
> photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar
> child photo is in the public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not
> the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of
> the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so. Still, I need to be
> certain. I'm still researching the later photograph. If anyone here knows
> more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it.
> > > >
> > > > (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also
> published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago.
> Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her
> point of view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward
> Carroll.)
> > > >
> > > > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
> Back to top
> <http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&view=js&name=js&ver=t5AXlufMeJI.en.&am=b3EopeS3cCHIAb0i0fQ2wjIX0VE8IA#121b007795cd849d_toc>
> Reply to sender
> <melaniebenjamin@...?Subject=Re%3A%20Photo%20copyright%20info>| Reply
> to group
> <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com?Subject=+Re%3A%20Photo%20copyright%20info>| Reply
> via web post
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJvZGNzN2k5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBG1zZ0lkAzE1MTg2BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjM-?act=reply&messageNum=15186>
> Messages in this topic
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/message/15167;_ylc=X3oDMTM0Z2tybjFqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBG1zZ0lkAzE1MTg2BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjMEdHBjSWQDMTUxNjc->(19)
>
> 2a. Re: Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2615
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/message/15187;_ylc=X3oDMTJvOWFrNmMwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBG1zZ0lkAzE1MTg3BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjM-> Posted
> by: "Keith" keith@...
> <keith@...?Subject=+Re%3A%20Fwd%3A%20%5Blewiscarroll%5D%20Digest%20Number%202615>
> keith_alan_wright <http://profiles.yahoo.com/keith_alan_wright> Thu
> Jun 4, 2009 10:42 am (PDT)
>
> Robert,
>
> Just wondered if you had not got my request for evidence about the
> estrangement of Liddell from his parents?
>
> Keith
>
> Robert,
>
> Having read Liddell's biography and seen other evidence if you are correct
> about an estrangement then many letters must have been 'invented' and home
> visits manufactured in order to cover up an estrangement from his family. It
> also does not fit with the fact that Liddell wrote in 1856 to his mother
> thanking her for the present for the library and wrote a couple of weeks
> later about the fact that the Deanery was complete.
>
> The mirror at the house in Charlton Kings is huge and one wonders if it was
> transported down from the north. As you say, it suffers from decay now, as
> do many mirrors of that age, but whether it did in 1856 is debatable.
>
> Have you any proof of a rift between Liddell and his parents? He appears to
> have made many visits to his home in Easington, certainly as many as any
> student in pre-railway days could have made.
>
> Keith
>
> From: Robert Batey
> Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2009 9:36 PM
> To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2615
>
> Dear LC People,
>
> Yes, Alice was 7 and went to her grandfather's house in Charlton Kings,
> Cheltenham. Her patriarchal grandparents had recently moved down from their
> rectory near Newcastle Upon Tyne, hence ending the estrangement of their
> son. On the journey a huge mirror, which hung in their drawing room and
> inspired the 'looking glass' story, did get damaged on the journey. Instead
> of being the shiny mirror it was when it left the rectory, it developed
> 'snowy' spots and brownish marks. That explains the 'snow' mystery.
> For other unexplained details of Alice and her life, and from where I
> obtained most of my info, you might want to read my book, "Under His Hat,"
> the true story of Alice and her real life hatter, available at at
> amazon.com or www.strategicbookpublishing.com/underhishat.html
> Regards
> Robert Batey
>
> On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 8:01 AM, <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com<lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>>
> wrote:
>
> Lewis Carroll discussion
> Messages In This Digest (5 Messages)
> 1a.
> Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: jenny2write
> 1b.
> Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: Arne Moll
> 1c.
> Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: Michael Everson
> 1d.
> Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: pleasanceone
> 1e.
> Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: jenny2write
> View All Topics | Create New Topic
> Messages
> 1a.
> Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
> Posted by: "jenny2write" woolf@... <woolf%40jabberwock.co.uk>jenny2write
> Tue May 26, 2009 4:09 am (PDT)
>
> Yep have done 1859 which would have been the year Alice was 7 and a half
> exactly. Cloudy and a bit rainy, only snow that fell was on the 29th and
> there wasn't much of that.
> I suppose it could just have been allegorical snow
>
> --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Michael Everson <everson@...> wrote:
> >
> > Check the weather for the late 19th century?
> >
> > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
> >
>
> Back to top
> Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
> Messages in this topic (8)
> 1b.
> Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
> Posted by: "Arne Moll" arnemail@... <arnemail%40dds.nl> tokkietor2003
> Tue May 26, 2009 4:19 am (PDT)
>
> Hi Jenny,
>
> Or it could just have been fictional snow, what with the book being a
> work a fiction, no? :-)
>
> Best regards,
> Arne
>
> Quoting jenny2write <woolf@... <woolf%40jabberwock.co.uk>>:
>
> > Yep have done 1859 which would have been the year Alice was 7 and a
> > half exactly. Cloudy and a bit rainy, only snow that fell was on
> > the 29th and there wasn't much of that.
> > I suppose it could just have been allegorical snow
> >
> >
> > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Michael Everson <everson@...> wrote:
> >>
> >> Check the weather for the late 19th century?
> >>
> >> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
> Back to top
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> Messages in this topic (8)
> 1c.
> Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
> Posted by: "Michael Everson" everson@... <everson%40evertype.com>evertype
> Tue May 26, 2009 4:43 am (PDT)
>
> On 26 May 2009, at 12:08, jenny2write wrote:
>
> > I suppose it could just have been allegorical snow
>
> Or aspirational snow.
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>
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> Messages in this topic (8)
> 1d.
> Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
> Posted by: "pleasanceone" haddoxeyes@...<haddoxeyes%40bigpond.com>pleasanceone
> Tue May 26, 2009 6:50 am (PDT)
>
> Hi Jenny,
>
> They didn't have a Global Financial Crisis then, so snow was cheaper to
> make and therefore more abundant and people could afford to have it covering
> everything in a lovely white blanket. Today things are going up in price,
> and what with the cost of labour and the need to use less energy and of
> course less water....well snow just isn't as economically viable as it once
> was. They also didn't have global warming yet, to melt the smaller quantity
> of snow that is produced each year.
> Probably why snow didn't catch on very much in this part of the world...
>
> Ciao
> Deb
>
> --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>,
> JEREMY BROWNING <jeremy.browning@...> wrote:
> >
> > Suspect you may be younger than some of us, Jenny - I'm 52 and pretty
> certain I can recall a couple of snowy bonfire nights in the mid-60s. But
> maybe I'm wrong.
> >
> >
> >
> > J.
> >
> > --- On Tue, 26/5/09, jenny2write <woolf@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: jenny2write <woolf@...>
> > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
> > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Tuesday, 26 May, 2009, 9:16 AM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Through the Looking Glass is set on November 4th (the boys are gathering
> wood for the bonfire, and it's also the day when Alice is 7 and a half
> exactly)
> >
> > So why is it snowing hard? I don't remember it EVER snowing this early in
> the year, and certainly not snowing hard.
> >
> > Jenny Woolf
> > www.jabberwock. co.uk/blog
> >
>
> Back to top
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> Messages in this topic (8)
> 1e.
> Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
> Posted by: "jenny2write" woolf@... <woolf%40jabberwock.co.uk>jenny2write
> Tue May 26, 2009 3:34 pm (PDT)
>
> --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>, Arne
> Moll <arnemail@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Jenny,
> >
> > Or it could just have been fictional snow, what with the book being a
> > work a fiction, no? :-)
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Arne
>
> Fiction? Omigod!
>
> Now you mention it....
>
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1b.

Re: Digest Number 2621

Posted by: "Keith" keith@...   keith_alan_wright

Mon Jun 8, 2009 6:33 am (PDT)



Robert,

ignoring hearsay, which is not valid when making such a claim, the documentary evidence points to H.G. Liddell being in contact with his parents on an ordinary son-parent basis throughout his life. Are you saying that this evidence was manufactured? A very odd thing to do, invent letters to parents when all that is needed is just not to mention the parents.

What date was the Who's Who entry you mention? Who's Who was not published until 1849 and Coffee Johnny was born in 1828. By the time Who's Who came into being Liddell was headmaster of Westminster school (1846- 1855) and had been appointed domestic chaplain to Prince Albert (1845) and yet nobody but the editor of Who's Who knew he was estranged from his parents or why?

I have read your book, that is why I am seeking proper evidence for what you are saying!

Keith

From: Robert Batey
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 2:05 PM
To: No Reply
Cc: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2621

Keith,
My evidence that Henry George Liddell was estranged by his parents came from my father and grandfather, besides a contact who must unfortunately remain confidential. My father and grandfather had pleanty of knowledge of the Liddells, which becomes understandable if you read my book, 'Under His Hat', available through www.amazon.com or www.strategicbookpublishing.com/underhishat.html , where my royalties go to children's homes (sorry about the plug, but it is relevant).
Also, you can find details of Dean Henry George's Liddell via Who's Who, in which he is described as the estranged son of Rector Henry George Liddell and Charlotte Lyon (of the Bowes Lyon lot).
Of course, there was some contact between Henry and his parents, but it was minimal - until his parents became so proud of their genius son, his fame, and his contribution to English education and the arts, that it eventually put everything right.
Regarding the 'snow' in the huge mirror, of 'Looking Glass' fame, my sources above also confirmed that most of Alice's grandparent's personal effects, furniture, and the now famous looking glass, did indeed come from Easington Rectory to Alice's grandparents house 'Hetton Lawn', Charlton Kings, near Cheltenham. On the journey, probably by weather exposure, the 'snow', and some brownish spots, appeared on the mirror.
Best regards
Robert H. Batey

On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 6:47 AM, <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Lewis Carroll discussion
Messages In This Digest (3 Messages)
1a.
Re: Photo copyright info From: oldjoesoap
1b.
Re: Photo copyright info From: Melanie Benjamin
2a.
Re: Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2615 From: Keith
View All Topics | Create New Topic
Messages
1a.
Re: Photo copyright info
Posted by: "oldjoesoap" oldjoesoap@... oldjoesoap
Thu Jun 4, 2009 8:17 am (PDT)

Melanie,

Several newspaper photos of Alice appeared in 1932 when she went to America to celebrate LC's centenary, her own eightieth birthday, and the seventieth anniversary of the first telling of Alice's Adventures Underground. She was only 79 when she received her honorary doctorate at Columbia University but 80 when she went to call on Abraham Rosenbach, to whom she had sold her little book - for what turned out to be a bargain price - in 1928. Dr. Rosenbach had some portrait photos taken in honour of her visit and they are now in the Rosenbach Museum in Philadelphia. You might want to take a look. I hope this url works!:

http://rosenbach.pastperfect-online.com/32739cgi/mweb.exe?request=record;id=DFBF3F43-1203-476F-9728-987030537960;type=102

J

--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...> wrote:
>
> That's a good idea. I did just contact the National Gallery in London, which also has a print of Alice at 18, asking the same thing - how much they would charge for permission to use the image from their site. (I know they do charge; they made it clear that while the original photo is out of copyright, most copies and scans of the photograph, including the one on their site and in their collection, are not.)
>
> The beggar girl photo is available on Wikipedia Commons, so I thought I could use that image. However, Alice at 18 is not on that site.
>
> It all seems so very simple, at first glance. Of course, nothing ever is!
>
>> > > From: Melanie Benjamin
> > > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
> > > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome. Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
> > >
> > > My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.) The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so. Still, I need to be certain. I'm still researching the later photograph. If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it.
> > >
> > > (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago. Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)
> > >
> > > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
> > >
> >
>

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Messages in this topic (19)
1b.
Re: Photo copyright info
Posted by: "Melanie Benjamin" melaniebenjamin@... melaniebenjamin@...
Thu Jun 4, 2009 9:02 am (PDT)

Joe, thank you - I knew of this photo, and in fact had found the collection it was in on this site, but had somehow missed the photo itself. It, too, is in a collection at the Morgan Library as well, and I emailed them yesterday about it. I'll email the Rosenbach site as well.

I will have quite a few people to thank from this site, in the book!

Melanie

----- Original Message -----
From: oldjoesoap
To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 10:17 AM
Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Photo copyright info

Melanie,

Several newspaper photos of Alice appeared in 1932 when she went to America to celebrate LC's centenary, her own eightieth birthday, and the seventieth anniversary of the first telling of Alice's Adventures Underground. She was only 79 when she received her honorary doctorate at Columbia University but 80 when she went to call on Abraham Rosenbach, to whom she had sold her little book - for what turned out to be a bargain price - in 1928. Dr. Rosenbach had some portrait photos taken in honour of her visit and they are now in the Rosenbach Museum in Philadelphia. You might want to take a look. I hope this url works!:

http://rosenbach.pastperfect-online.com/32739cgi/mweb.exe?request=record;id=DFBF3F43-1203-476F-9728-987030537960;type=102

J

--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...> wrote:
>
> That's a good idea. I did just contact the National Gallery in London, which also has a print of Alice at 18, asking the same thing - how much they would charge for permission to use the image from their site. (I know they do charge; they made it clear that while the original photo is out of copyright, most copies and scans of the photograph, including the one on their site and in their collection, are not.)
>
> The beggar girl photo is available on Wikipedia Commons, so I thought I could use that image. However, Alice at 18 is not on that site.
>
> It all seems so very simple, at first glance. Of course, nothing ever is!
>
>> > > From: Melanie Benjamin
> > > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
> > > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome. Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
> > >
> > > My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.) The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so. Still, I need to be certain. I'm still researching the later photograph. If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it.
> > >
> > > (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago. Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)
> > >
> > > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
> > >
> >
>

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Messages in this topic (19)
2a.
Re: Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2615
Posted by: "Keith" keith@... keith_alan_wright
Thu Jun 4, 2009 10:42 am (PDT)

Robert,

Just wondered if you had not got my request for evidence about the estrangement of Liddell from his parents?

Keith

Robert,

Having read Liddell's biography and seen other evidence if you are correct about an estrangement then many letters must have been 'invented' and home visits manufactured in order to cover up an estrangement from his family. It also does not fit with the fact that Liddell wrote in 1856 to his mother thanking her for the present for the library and wrote a couple of weeks later about the fact that the Deanery was complete.

The mirror at the house in Charlton Kings is huge and one wonders if it was transported down from the north. As you say, it suffers from decay now, as do many mirrors of that age, but whether it did in 1856 is debatable.

Have you any proof of a rift between Liddell and his parents? He appears to have made many visits to his home in Easington, certainly as many as any student in pre-railway days could have made.

Keith

From: Robert Batey
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2009 9:36 PM
To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2615

Dear LC People,

Yes, Alice was 7 and went to her grandfather's house in Charlton Kings, Cheltenham. Her patriarchal grandparents had recently moved down from their rectory near Newcastle Upon Tyne, hence ending the estrangement of their son. On the journey a huge mirror, which hung in their drawing room and inspired the 'looking glass' story, did get damaged on the journey. Instead of being the shiny mirror it was when it left the rectory, it developed 'snowy' spots and brownish marks. That explains the 'snow' mystery.
For other unexplained details of Alice and her life, and from where I obtained most of my info, you might want to read my book, "Under His Hat," the true story of Alice and her real life hatter, available at at amazon.com or www.strategicbookpublishing.com/underhishat.html
Regards
Robert Batey

On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 8:01 AM, <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Lewis Carroll discussion
Messages In This Digest (5 Messages)
1a.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: jenny2write
1b.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: Arne Moll
1c.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: Michael Everson
1d.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: pleasanceone
1e.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: jenny2write
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Messages
1a.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
Posted by: "jenny2write" woolf@... jenny2write
Tue May 26, 2009 4:09 am (PDT)

Yep have done 1859 which would have been the year Alice was 7 and a half exactly. Cloudy and a bit rainy, only snow that fell was on the 29th and there wasn't much of that.
I suppose it could just have been allegorical snow

--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, Michael Everson <everson@...> wrote:
>
> Check the weather for the late 19th century?
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>

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1b.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
Posted by: "Arne Moll" arnemail@... tokkietor2003
Tue May 26, 2009 4:19 am (PDT)

Hi Jenny,

Or it could just have been fictional snow, what with the book being a
work a fiction, no? :-)

Best regards,
Arne

Quoting jenny2write <woolf@...>:

> Yep have done 1859 which would have been the year Alice was 7 and a
> half exactly. Cloudy and a bit rainy, only snow that fell was on
> the 29th and there wasn't much of that.
> I suppose it could just have been allegorical snow
>
>
> --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, Michael Everson <everson@...> wrote:
>>
>> Check the weather for the late 19th century?
>>
>> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>>
>
>
>

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1c.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
Posted by: "Michael Everson" everson@... evertype
Tue May 26, 2009 4:43 am (PDT)

On 26 May 2009, at 12:08, jenny2write wrote:

> I suppose it could just have been allegorical snow

Or aspirational snow.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

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1d.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
Posted by: "pleasanceone" haddoxeyes@... pleasanceone
Tue May 26, 2009 6:50 am (PDT)

Hi Jenny,

They didn't have a Global Financial Crisis then, so snow was cheaper to make and therefore more abundant and people could afford to have it covering everything in a lovely white blanket. Today things are going up in price, and what with the cost of labour and the need to use less energy and of course less water....well snow just isn't as economically viable as it once was. They also didn't have global warming yet, to melt the smaller quantity of snow that is produced each year.
Probably why snow didn't catch on very much in this part of the world...

Ciao
Deb

--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, JEREMY BROWNING <jeremy.browning@...> wrote:
>
> Suspect you may be younger than some of us, Jenny - I'm 52 and pretty certain I can recall a couple of snowy bonfire nights in the mid-60s. But maybe I'm wrong.
>
>
>
> J.
>
> --- On Tue, 26/5/09, jenny2write <woolf@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: jenny2write <woolf@...>
> Subject: [lewiscarroll] Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
> To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, 26 May, 2009, 9:16 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Through the Looking Glass is set on November 4th (the boys are gathering wood for the bonfire, and it's also the day when Alice is 7 and a half exactly)
>
> So why is it snowing hard? I don't remember it EVER snowing this early in the year, and certainly not snowing hard.
>
> Jenny Woolf
> www.jabberwock. co.uk/blog
>

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1e.
Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
Posted by: "jenny2write" woolf@... jenny2write
Tue May 26, 2009 3:34 pm (PDT)

--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, Arne Moll <arnemail@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Jenny,
>
> Or it could just have been fictional snow, what with the book being a
> work a fiction, no? :-)
>
> Best regards,
> Arne

Fiction? Omigod!

Now you mention it....

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1c.

Re: Digest Number 2621

Posted by: "oldjoesoap" oldjoesoap@...   oldjoesoap

Mon Jun 8, 2009 9:40 am (PDT)



Although Who's Who was published in 1849 onwards, it consisted of an Almanac and a series of lists - Royal Household, Navy Officers, Judiciary etc. By 1857, Henry Liddell gets two entries, one as a Dean of a cathedral, and one as the head of an Oxford College. No biographical details are included. Autobiographical details were not included until 1897 so Henry just squeezed in. I don't have a copy of the 1897 edition, but it seems rather unlikely that Henry would have confided details of a bust-up and reconciliation which had occurred so many years before. I wonder if we should be looking for a different book.
J

--- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@...> wrote:
>
> Robert,
>
> ignoring hearsay, which is not valid when making such a claim, the documentary evidence points to H.G. Liddell being in contact with his parents on an ordinary son-parent basis throughout his life. Are you saying that this evidence was manufactured? A very odd thing to do, invent letters to parents when all that is needed is just not to mention the parents.
>
> What date was the Who's Who entry you mention? Who's Who was not published until 1849 and Coffee Johnny was born in 1828. By the time Who's Who came into being Liddell was headmaster of Westminster school (1846- 1855) and had been appointed domestic chaplain to Prince Albert (1845) and yet nobody but the editor of Who's Who knew he was estranged from his parents or why?
>
> I have read your book, that is why I am seeking proper evidence for what you are saying!
>
> Keith
>
>
>
>
> From: Robert Batey
> Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 2:05 PM
> To: No Reply
> Cc: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2621
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Keith,
> My evidence that Henry George Liddell was estranged by his parents came from my father and grandfather, besides a contact who must unfortunately remain confidential. My father and grandfather had pleanty of knowledge of the Liddells, which becomes understandable if you read my book, 'Under His Hat', available through www.amazon.com or www.strategicbookpublishing.com/underhishat.html , where my royalties go to children's homes (sorry about the plug, but it is relevant).
> Also, you can find details of Dean Henry George's Liddell via Who's Who, in which he is described as the estranged son of Rector Henry George Liddell and Charlotte Lyon (of the Bowes Lyon lot).
> Of course, there was some contact between Henry and his parents, but it was minimal - until his parents became so proud of their genius son, his fame, and his contribution to English education and the arts, that it eventually put everything right.
> Regarding the 'snow' in the huge mirror, of 'Looking Glass' fame, my sources above also confirmed that most of Alice's grandparent's personal effects, furniture, and the now famous looking glass, did indeed come from Easington Rectory to Alice's grandparents house 'Hetton Lawn', Charlton Kings, near Cheltenham. On the journey, probably by weather exposure, the 'snow', and some brownish spots, appeared on the mirror.
> Best regards
> Robert H. Batey
>

1d.

Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2621

Posted by: "Robert Batey" londnbob@...   londnbob67

Mon Jun 8, 2009 10:20 am (PDT)



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Robert Batey <londnbob@...>
Date: Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2621
To: No Reply <notify-dg-lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com

Keith,
My evidence that Henry George Liddell was estranged by his parents came from
my father and grandfather, besides a contact who must unfortunately remain
confidential. My father and grandfather had pleanty of knowledge of the
Liddells, which becomes understandable if you read my book, 'Under His Hat',
available through www.amazon.com or
www.strategicbookpublishing.com/underhishat.html , where my royalties go to
children's homes (sorry about the plug, but it is relevant).
Also, you can find details of Dean Henry George's Liddell via Who's Who, in
which he is described as the estranged son of Rector Henry George Liddell
and Charlotte Lyon (of the Bowes Lyon lot).
Of course, there was some contact between Henry and his parents, but it
was minimal - until his parents became so proud of their genius son,
his fame, and his contribution to English education and the arts, that it
eventually put everything right.
Regarding the 'snow' in the huge mirror, of 'Looking Glass' fame, my sources
above also confirmed that most of Alice's grandparent's personal effects,
furniture, and the now famous looking glass, did indeed come from Easington
Rectory to Alice's grandparents house 'Hetton Lawn', Charlton Kings, near
Cheltenham. On the journey, probably by weather exposure, the 'snow', and
some brownish spots, appeared on the mirror.
Best regards
Robert H. Batey

On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 6:47 AM, <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> Lewis Carroll discussion
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll;_ylc=X3oDMTJhdmdudWlzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBHNlYwNoZHIEc2xrA2hwaARzdGltZQMxMjQ0MTk4ODIy>
> Messages In This Digest (3 Messages) 1a. Re: Photo copyright info<http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&view=js&name=js&ver=t5AXlufMeJI.en.&am=b3EopeS3cCHIAb0i0fQ2wjIX0VE8IA#121b007795cd849d_1a>From: oldjoesoap 1b.
> Re: Photo copyright info<http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&view=js&name=js&ver=t5AXlufMeJI.en.&am=b3EopeS3cCHIAb0i0fQ2wjIX0VE8IA#121b007795cd849d_1b>From: Melanie Benjamin 2a.
> Re: Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2615<http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&view=js&name=js&ver=t5AXlufMeJI.en.&am=b3EopeS3cCHIAb0i0fQ2wjIX0VE8IA#121b007795cd849d_2a>From: Keith
> View All Topics<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJjNTkzMTQwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawNhdHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjM-?xm=1&m=p&tidx=1>| Create
> New Topic<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJjbGwxY3IzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjM->
> Messages 1a. Re: Photo copyright info
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/message/15185;_ylc=X3oDMTJvYTRjYzhvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBG1zZ0lkAzE1MTg1BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjM-> Posted
> by: "oldjoesoap" oldjoesoap@...
> <oldjoesoap@...?Subject=+Re%3A%20Photo%20copyright%20info> oldjoesoap
> <http://profiles.yahoo.com/oldjoesoap> Thu Jun 4, 2009 8:17 am (PDT)
>
> Melanie,
>
> Several newspaper photos of Alice appeared in 1932 when she went to America
> to celebrate LC's centenary, her own eightieth birthday, and the seventieth
> anniversary of the first telling of Alice's Adventures Underground. She was
> only 79 when she received her honorary doctorate at Columbia University but
> 80 when she went to call on Abraham Rosenbach, to whom she had sold her
> little book - for what turned out to be a bargain price - in 1928. Dr.
> Rosenbach had some portrait photos taken in honour of her visit and they are
> now in the Rosenbach Museum in Philadelphia. You might want to take a look.
> I hope this url works!:
>
>
> http://rosenbach.pastperfect-online.com/32739cgi/mweb.exe?request=record;id=DFBF3F43-1203-476F-9728-987030537960;type=102
>
> J
>
> --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...> wrote:
> >
> > That's a good idea. I did just contact the National Gallery in London,
> which also has a print of Alice at 18, asking the same thing - how much they
> would charge for permission to use the image from their site. (I know they
> do charge; they made it clear that while the original photo is out of
> copyright, most copies and scans of the photograph, including the one on
> their site and in their collection, are not.)
> >
> > The beggar girl photo is available on Wikipedia Commons, so I thought I
> could use that image. However, Alice at 18 is not on that site.
> >
> > It all seems so very simple, at first glance. Of course, nothing ever is!
>
> >
> >> > > From: Melanie Benjamin
> > > > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
> > > > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as
> I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in
> January with Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as
> an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very
> welcome. Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
> > > >
> > > > My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the
> 3 separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.)
> The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So
> there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar
> child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I
> believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a
> photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar
> child photo is in the public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not
> the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of
> the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so. Still, I need to be
> certain. I'm still researching the later photograph. If anyone here knows
> more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it.
> > > >
> > > > (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also
> published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago.
> Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her
> point of view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward
> Carroll.)
> > > >
> > > > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
> Back to top
> <http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&view=js&name=js&ver=t5AXlufMeJI.en.&am=b3EopeS3cCHIAb0i0fQ2wjIX0VE8IA#121b007795cd849d_toc>
> Reply to sender
> <oldjoesoap@...?Subject=Re%3A%20Photo%20copyright%20info>| Reply
> to group
> <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com?Subject=+Re%3A%20Photo%20copyright%20info>| Reply
> via web post
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJvdjFkNTF2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBG1zZ0lkAzE1MTg1BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjM-?act=reply&messageNum=15185>
> Messages in this topic
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/message/15167;_ylc=X3oDMTM0djg3ZGF0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBG1zZ0lkAzE1MTg1BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjMEdHBjSWQDMTUxNjc->(19)
>
> 1b. Re: Photo copyright info
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/message/15186;_ylc=X3oDMTJvcDI1MXVhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBG1zZ0lkAzE1MTg2BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjM-> Posted
> by: "Melanie Benjamin" melaniebenjamin@...
> <melaniebenjamin@...?Subject=+Re%3A%20Photo%20copyright%20info>
> melaniebenjamin@...
> <http://profiles.yahoo.com/melaniebenjamin@...> Thu Jun 4, 2009
> 9:02 am (PDT)
>
> Joe, thank you - I knew of this photo, and in fact had found the collection
> it was in on this site, but had somehow missed the photo itself. It, too, is
> in a collection at the Morgan Library as well, and I emailed them yesterday
> about it. I'll email the Rosenbach site as well.
>
> I will have quite a few people to thank from this site, in the book!
>
> Melanie
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: oldjoesoap
> To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 10:17 AM
> Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Photo copyright info
>
> Melanie,
>
> Several newspaper photos of Alice appeared in 1932 when she went to America
> to celebrate LC's centenary, her own eightieth birthday, and the seventieth
> anniversary of the first telling of Alice's Adventures Underground. She was
> only 79 when she received her honorary doctorate at Columbia University but
> 80 when she went to call on Abraham Rosenbach, to whom she had sold her
> little book - for what turned out to be a bargain price - in 1928. Dr.
> Rosenbach had some portrait photos taken in honour of her visit and they are
> now in the Rosenbach Museum in Philadelphia. You might want to take a look.
> I hope this url works!:
>
>
> http://rosenbach.pastperfect-online.com/32739cgi/mweb.exe?request=record;id=DFBF3F43-1203-476F-9728-987030537960;type=102
>
> J
>
> --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...> wrote:
> >
> > That's a good idea. I did just contact the National Gallery in London,
> which also has a print of Alice at 18, asking the same thing - how much they
> would charge for permission to use the image from their site. (I know they
> do charge; they made it clear that while the original photo is out of
> copyright, most copies and scans of the photograph, including the one on
> their site and in their collection, are not.)
> >
> > The beggar girl photo is available on Wikipedia Commons, so I thought I
> could use that image. However, Alice at 18 is not on that site.
> >
> > It all seems so very simple, at first glance. Of course, nothing ever is!
>
> >
> >> > > From: Melanie Benjamin
> > > > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
> > > > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as
> I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in
> January with Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as
> an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very
> welcome. Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
> > > >
> > > > My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the
> 3 separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.)
> The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So
> there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar
> child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I
> believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a
> photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar
> child photo is in the public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not
> the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of
> the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so. Still, I need to be
> certain. I'm still researching the later photograph. If anyone here knows
> more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it.
> > > >
> > > > (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also
> published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago.
> Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her
> point of view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward
> Carroll.)
> > > >
> > > > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
> Back to top
> <http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&view=js&name=js&ver=t5AXlufMeJI.en.&am=b3EopeS3cCHIAb0i0fQ2wjIX0VE8IA#121b007795cd849d_toc>
> Reply to sender
> <melaniebenjamin@...?Subject=Re%3A%20Photo%20copyright%20info>| Reply
> to group
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> via web post
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> Messages in this topic
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/message/15167;_ylc=X3oDMTM0Z2tybjFqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBG1zZ0lkAzE1MTg2BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjMEdHBjSWQDMTUxNjc->(19)
>
> 2a. Re: Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2615
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/message/15187;_ylc=X3oDMTJvOWFrNmMwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBG1zZ0lkAzE1MTg3BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjM-> Posted
> by: "Keith" keith@...
> <keith@...?Subject=+Re%3A%20Fwd%3A%20%5Blewiscarroll%5D%20Digest%20Number%202615>
> keith_alan_wright <http://profiles.yahoo.com/keith_alan_wright> Thu
> Jun 4, 2009 10:42 am (PDT)
>
> Robert,
>
> Just wondered if you had not got my request for evidence about the
> estrangement of Liddell from his parents?
>
> Keith
>
> Robert,
>
> Having read Liddell's biography and seen other evidence if you are correct
> about an estrangement then many letters must have been 'invented' and home
> visits manufactured in order to cover up an estrangement from his family. It
> also does not fit with the fact that Liddell wrote in 1856 to his mother
> thanking her for the present for the library and wrote a couple of weeks
> later about the fact that the Deanery was complete.
>
> The mirror at the house in Charlton Kings is huge and one wonders if it was
> transported down from the north. As you say, it suffers from decay now, as
> do many mirrors of that age, but whether it did in 1856 is debatable.
>
> Have you any proof of a rift between Liddell and his parents? He appears to
> have made many visits to his home in Easington, certainly as many as any
> student in pre-railway days could have made.
>
> Keith
>
> From: Robert Batey
> Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2009 9:36 PM
> To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2615
>
> Dear LC People,
>
> Yes, Alice was 7 and went to her grandfather's house in Charlton Kings,
> Cheltenham. Her patriarchal grandparents had recently moved down from their
> rectory near Newcastle Upon Tyne, hence ending the estrangement of their
> son. On the journey a huge mirror, which hung in their drawing room and
> inspired the 'looking glass' story, did get damaged on the journey. Instead
> of being the shiny mirror it was when it left the rectory, it developed
> 'snowy' spots and brownish marks. That explains the 'snow' mystery.
> For other unexplained details of Alice and her life, and from where I
> obtained most of my info, you might want to read my book, "Under His Hat,"
> the true story of Alice and her real life hatter, available at at
> amazon.com or www.strategicbookpublishing.com/underhishat.html
> Regards
> Robert Batey
>
> On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 8:01 AM, <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com<lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>>
> wrote:
>
> Lewis Carroll discussion
> Messages In This Digest (5 Messages)
> 1a.
> Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: jenny2write
> 1b.
> Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: Arne Moll
> 1c.
> Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: Michael Everson
> 1d.
> Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: pleasanceone
> 1e.
> Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: jenny2write
> View All Topics | Create New Topic
> Messages
> 1a.
> Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
> Posted by: "jenny2write" woolf@... <woolf%40jabberwock.co.uk>jenny2write
> Tue May 26, 2009 4:09 am (PDT)
>
> Yep have done 1859 which would have been the year Alice was 7 and a half
> exactly. Cloudy and a bit rainy, only snow that fell was on the 29th and
> there wasn't much of that.
> I suppose it could just have been allegorical snow
>
> --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Michael Everson <everson@...> wrote:
> >
> > Check the weather for the late 19th century?
> >
> > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
> >
>
> Back to top
> Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
> Messages in this topic (8)
> 1b.
> Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
> Posted by: "Arne Moll" arnemail@... <arnemail%40dds.nl> tokkietor2003
> Tue May 26, 2009 4:19 am (PDT)
>
> Hi Jenny,
>
> Or it could just have been fictional snow, what with the book being a
> work a fiction, no? :-)
>
> Best regards,
> Arne
>
> Quoting jenny2write <woolf@... <woolf%40jabberwock.co.uk>>:
>
> > Yep have done 1859 which would have been the year Alice was 7 and a
> > half exactly. Cloudy and a bit rainy, only snow that fell was on
> > the 29th and there wasn't much of that.
> > I suppose it could just have been allegorical snow
> >
> >
> > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Michael Everson <everson@...> wrote:
> >>
> >> Check the weather for the late 19th century?
> >>
> >> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
> Back to top
> Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
> Messages in this topic (8)
> 1c.
> Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
> Posted by: "Michael Everson" everson@... <everson%40evertype.com>evertype
> Tue May 26, 2009 4:43 am (PDT)
>
> On 26 May 2009, at 12:08, jenny2write wrote:
>
> > I suppose it could just have been allegorical snow
>
> Or aspirational snow.
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>
> Back to top
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> Messages in this topic (8)
> 1d.
> Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
> Posted by: "pleasanceone" haddoxeyes@...<haddoxeyes%40bigpond.com>pleasanceone
> Tue May 26, 2009 6:50 am (PDT)
>
> Hi Jenny,
>
> They didn't have a Global Financial Crisis then, so snow was cheaper to
> make and therefore more abundant and people could afford to have it covering
> everything in a lovely white blanket. Today things are going up in price,
> and what with the cost of labour and the need to use less energy and of
> course less water....well snow just isn't as economically viable as it once
> was. They also didn't have global warming yet, to melt the smaller quantity
> of snow that is produced each year.
> Probably why snow didn't catch on very much in this part of the world...
>
> Ciao
> Deb
>
> --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>,
> JEREMY BROWNING <jeremy.browning@...> wrote:
> >
> > Suspect you may be younger than some of us, Jenny - I'm 52 and pretty
> certain I can recall a couple of snowy bonfire nights in the mid-60s. But
> maybe I'm wrong.
> >
> >
> >
> > J.
> >
> > --- On Tue, 26/5/09, jenny2write <woolf@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: jenny2write <woolf@...>
> > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
> > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Tuesday, 26 May, 2009, 9:16 AM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Through the Looking Glass is set on November 4th (the boys are gathering
> wood for the bonfire, and it's also the day when Alice is 7 and a half
> exactly)
> >
> > So why is it snowing hard? I don't remember it EVER snowing this early in
> the year, and certainly not snowing hard.
> >
> > Jenny Woolf
> > www.jabberwock. co.uk/blog
> >
>
> Back to top
> Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
> Messages in this topic (8)
> 1e.
> Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
> Posted by: "jenny2write" woolf@... <woolf%40jabberwock.co.uk>jenny2write
> Tue May 26, 2009 3:34 pm (PDT)
>
> --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>, Arne
> Moll <arnemail@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Jenny,
> >
> > Or it could just have been fictional snow, what with the book being a
> > work a fiction, no? :-)
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Arne
>
> Fiction? Omigod!
>
> Now you mention it....
>
> Back to top
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2a.

Lady of the Lilacs

Posted by: "jenny2write" woolf@...   jenny2write

Tue Jun 9, 2009 1:27 am (PDT)



I'd be really interested to know if anyone has any ideas about the Lady of the Lilacs - I've posted an image of it on my blog and the more I look at it the stranger it seems. The way she is holding her hands and head makes me feel that there must be some significance and since Hughes was a pre-raphaelite it may hark back to conventions used in Tudor paintings. Any art experts here?

3.

Lady of the Lilacs url

Posted by: "jenny2write" woolf@...   jenny2write

Tue Jun 9, 2009 1:28 am (PDT)



Sorry, should have given the url which is www.jabberwock.co.uk/blog

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    Reply | Messages in this Topic (1)
    #15195 From: Robert Batey <londnbob@...>
    Date: Tue Jun 9, 2009 3:54 pm
    Subject: Message to lewis carroll yahoo groups     		londnbob67
    Send Email Send Email
     

    ---------- Forwarded message ----------
    From: Robert Batey <londnbob@...>
    To: No Reply <notify-dg-lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com>
    Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:21:03 -0400
    Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2622
    Keith,
     
    I cannot remember the date of the Who's Who which states Dean Henry George Liddell was estranged from his parents, but I am sure most libraries will have the version in which I actually read it.
     
    I do not know how many letters may or may not have been dent between Dean Henry and his parents. Maybe you have some knowledge of that. All I can say is I have evidence of an estrangement, including Who's Who probably in your library. Of course there are degrees of estrangement, from no contact at all to some contact. If anybody knows to what degree, I would like to learn of this.
     
    Robert Batey

    On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 6:42 AM, <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

    Messages In This Digest (6 Messages)

    1a.
    Re: Digest Number 2621 From: Robert Batey
    1b.
    Re: Digest Number 2621 From: Keith
    1c.
    Re: Digest Number 2621 From: oldjoesoap
    1d.
    Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2621 From: Robert Batey
    2a.
    Lady of the Lilacs From: jenny2write
    3.
    Lady of the Lilacs url From: jenny2write

    Messages

    1a.

    Re: Digest Number 2621

    Posted by: "Robert Batey" londnbob@...   londnbob67

    Mon Jun 8, 2009 6:06 am (PDT)



    Keith,
    My evidence that Henry George Liddell was estranged by his parents came from
    my father and grandfather, besides a contact who must unfortunately remain
    confidential. My father and grandfather had pleanty of knowledge of the
    Liddells, which becomes understandable if you read my book, 'Under His Hat',
    available through www.amazon.com or
    www.strategicbookpublishing.com/underhishat.html , where my royalties go to
    children's homes (sorry about the plug, but it is relevant).
    Also, you can find details of Dean Henry George's Liddell via Who's Who, in
    which he is described as the estranged son of Rector Henry George Liddell
    and Charlotte Lyon (of the Bowes Lyon lot).
    Of course, there was some contact between Henry and his parents, but it
    was minimal - until his parents became so proud of their genius son,
    his fame, and his contribution to English education and the arts, that it
    eventually put everything right.
    Regarding the 'snow' in the huge mirror, of 'Looking Glass' fame, my sources
    above also confirmed that most of Alice's grandparent's personal effects,
    furniture, and the now famous looking glass, did indeed come from Easington
    Rectory to Alice's grandparents house 'Hetton Lawn', Charlton Kings, near
    Cheltenham. On the journey, probably by weather exposure, the 'snow', and
    some brownish spots, appeared on the mirror.
    Best regards
    Robert H. Batey

    On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 6:47 AM, <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

    > Lewis Carroll discussion
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    > Messages In This Digest (3 Messages) 1a. Re: Photo copyright info<http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&view=js&name=js&ver=t5AXlufMeJI.en.&am=b3EopeS3cCHIAb0i0fQ2wjIX0VE8IA#121b007795cd849d_1a>From: oldjoesoap 1b.
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    > Re: Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2615<http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&view=js&name=js&ver=t5AXlufMeJI.en.&am=b3EopeS3cCHIAb0i0fQ2wjIX0VE8IA#121b007795cd849d_2a>From: Keith
    > View All Topics<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJjNTkzMTQwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawNhdHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjM-?xm=1&m=p&tidx=1>| Create
    > New Topic<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJjbGwxY3IzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjM->
    > Messages 1a. Re: Photo copyright info
    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/message/15185;_ylc=X3oDMTJvYTRjYzhvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBG1zZ0lkAzE1MTg1BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjM-> Posted
    > by: "oldjoesoap" oldjoesoap@...
    > <oldjoesoap@...?Subject=+Re%3A%20Photo%20copyright%20info> oldjoesoap
    > <http://profiles.yahoo.com/oldjoesoap> Thu Jun 4, 2009 8:17 am (PDT)
    >
    > Melanie,
    >
    > Several newspaper photos of Alice appeared in 1932 when she went to America
    > to celebrate LC's centenary, her own eightieth birthday, and the seventieth
    > anniversary of the first telling of Alice's Adventures Underground. She was
    > only 79 when she received her honorary doctorate at Columbia University but
    > 80 when she went to call on Abraham Rosenbach, to whom she had sold her
    > little book - for what turned out to be a bargain price - in 1928. Dr.
    > Rosenbach had some portrait photos taken in honour of her visit and they are
    > now in the Rosenbach Museum in Philadelphia. You might want to take a look.
    > I hope this url works!:
    >
    >
    > http://rosenbach.pastperfect-online.com/32739cgi/mweb.exe?request=record;id=DFBF3F43-1203-476F-9728-987030537960;type=102
    >
    > J
    >
    > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>,
    > "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...> wrote:
    > >
    > > That's a good idea. I did just contact the National Gallery in London,
    > which also has a print of Alice at 18, asking the same thing - how much they
    > would charge for permission to use the image from their site. (I know they
    > do charge; they made it clear that while the original photo is out of
    > copyright, most copies and scans of the photograph, including the one on
    > their site and in their collection, are not.)
    > >
    > > The beggar girl photo is available on Wikipedia Commons, so I thought I
    > could use that image. However, Alice at 18 is not on that site.
    > >
    > > It all seems so very simple, at first glance. Of course, nothing ever is!
    >
    > >
    > >> > > From: Melanie Benjamin
    > > > > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
    > > > > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>
    > > > > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as
    > I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in
    > January with Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as
    > an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very
    > welcome. Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
    > > > >
    > > > > My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the
    > 3 separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.)
    > The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So
    > there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar
    > child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I
    > believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a
    > photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar
    > child photo is in the public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not
    > the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of
    > the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so. Still, I need to be
    > certain. I'm still researching the later photograph. If anyone here knows
    > more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it.
    > > > >
    > > > > (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also
    > published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago.
    > Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her
    > point of view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward
    > Carroll.)
    > > > >
    > > > > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
    > > > >
    > > >
    > >
    >
    > Back to top
    > <http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&view=js&name=js&ver=t5AXlufMeJI.en.&am=b3EopeS3cCHIAb0i0fQ2wjIX0VE8IA#121b007795cd849d_toc>
    > Reply to sender
    > <oldjoesoap@...?Subject=Re%3A%20Photo%20copyright%20info>| Reply
    > to group
    > <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com?Subject=+Re%3A%20Photo%20copyright%20info>| Reply
    > via web post
    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJvdjFkNTF2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBG1zZ0lkAzE1MTg1BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjM-?act=reply&messageNum=15185>
    > Messages in this topic
    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/message/15167;_ylc=X3oDMTM0djg3ZGF0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBG1zZ0lkAzE1MTg1BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjMEdHBjSWQDMTUxNjc->(19)
    >
    > 1b. Re: Photo copyright info
    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/message/15186;_ylc=X3oDMTJvcDI1MXVhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBG1zZ0lkAzE1MTg2BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjM-> Posted
    > by: "Melanie Benjamin" melaniebenjamin@...
    > <melaniebenjamin@...?Subject=+Re%3A%20Photo%20copyright%20info>
    > melaniebenjamin@...
    > <http://profiles.yahoo.com/melaniebenjamin@...> Thu Jun 4, 2009
    > 9:02 am (PDT)
    >
    > Joe, thank you - I knew of this photo, and in fact had found the collection
    > it was in on this site, but had somehow missed the photo itself. It, too, is
    > in a collection at the Morgan Library as well, and I emailed them yesterday
    > about it. I'll email the Rosenbach site as well.
    >
    > I will have quite a few people to thank from this site, in the book!
    >
    > Melanie
    >
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: oldjoesoap
    > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>
    > Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 10:17 AM
    > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Photo copyright info
    >
    > Melanie,
    >
    > Several newspaper photos of Alice appeared in 1932 when she went to America
    > to celebrate LC's centenary, her own eightieth birthday, and the seventieth
    > anniversary of the first telling of Alice's Adventures Underground. She was
    > only 79 when she received her honorary doctorate at Columbia University but
    > 80 when she went to call on Abraham Rosenbach, to whom she had sold her
    > little book - for what turned out to be a bargain price - in 1928. Dr.
    > Rosenbach had some portrait photos taken in honour of her visit and they are
    > now in the Rosenbach Museum in Philadelphia. You might want to take a look.
    > I hope this url works!:
    >
    >
    > http://rosenbach.pastperfect-online.com/32739cgi/mweb.exe?request=record;id=DFBF3F43-1203-476F-9728-987030537960;type=102
    >
    > J
    >
    > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>,
    > "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...> wrote:
    > >
    > > That's a good idea. I did just contact the National Gallery in London,
    > which also has a print of Alice at 18, asking the same thing - how much they
    > would charge for permission to use the image from their site. (I know they
    > do charge; they made it clear that while the original photo is out of
    > copyright, most copies and scans of the photograph, including the one on
    > their site and in their collection, are not.)
    > >
    > > The beggar girl photo is available on Wikipedia Commons, so I thought I
    > could use that image. However, Alice at 18 is not on that site.
    > >
    > > It all seems so very simple, at first glance. Of course, nothing ever is!
    >
    > >
    > >> > > From: Melanie Benjamin
    > > > > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
    > > > > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>
    > > > > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as
    > I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in
    > January with Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as
    > an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very
    > welcome. Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
    > > > >
    > > > > My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the
    > 3 separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.)
    > The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So
    > there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar
    > child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I
    > believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a
    > photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar
    > child photo is in the public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not
    > the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of
    > the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so. Still, I need to be
    > certain. I'm still researching the later photograph. If anyone here knows
    > more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it.
    > > > >
    > > > > (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also
    > published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago.
    > Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her
    > point of view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward
    > Carroll.)
    > > > >
    > > > > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
    > > > >
    > > >
    > >
    >
    > Back to top
    > <http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&view=js&name=js&ver=t5AXlufMeJI.en.&am=b3EopeS3cCHIAb0i0fQ2wjIX0VE8IA#121b007795cd849d_toc>
    > Reply to sender
    > <melaniebenjamin@...?Subject=Re%3A%20Photo%20copyright%20info>| Reply
    > to group
    > <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com?Subject=+Re%3A%20Photo%20copyright%20info>| Reply
    > via web post
    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJvZGNzN2k5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBG1zZ0lkAzE1MTg2BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjM-?act=reply&messageNum=15186>
    > Messages in this topic
    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/message/15167;_ylc=X3oDMTM0Z2tybjFqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBG1zZ0lkAzE1MTg2BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjMEdHBjSWQDMTUxNjc->(19)
    >
    > 2a. Re: Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2615
    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/message/15187;_ylc=X3oDMTJvOWFrNmMwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBG1zZ0lkAzE1MTg3BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjM-> Posted
    > by: "Keith" keith@...
    > <keith@...?Subject=+Re%3A%20Fwd%3A%20%5Blewiscarroll%5D%20Digest%20Number%202615>
    > keith_alan_wright <http://profiles.yahoo.com/keith_alan_wright> Thu
    > Jun 4, 2009 10:42 am (PDT)
    >
    > Robert,
    >
    > Just wondered if you had not got my request for evidence about the
    > estrangement of Liddell from his parents?
    >
    > Keith
    >
    > Robert,
    >
    > Having read Liddell's biography and seen other evidence if you are correct
    > about an estrangement then many letters must have been 'invented' and home
    > visits manufactured in order to cover up an estrangement from his family. It
    > also does not fit with the fact that Liddell wrote in 1856 to his mother
    > thanking her for the present for the library and wrote a couple of weeks
    > later about the fact that the Deanery was complete.
    >
    > The mirror at the house in Charlton Kings is huge and one wonders if it was
    > transported down from the north. As you say, it suffers from decay now, as
    > do many mirrors of that age, but whether it did in 1856 is debatable.
    >
    > Have you any proof of a rift between Liddell and his parents? He appears to
    > have made many visits to his home in Easington, certainly as many as any
    > student in pre-railway days could have made.
    >
    > Keith
    >
    > From: Robert Batey
    > Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2009 9:36 PM
    > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>
    > Subject: Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2615
    >
    > Dear LC People,
    >
    > Yes, Alice was 7 and went to her grandfather's house in Charlton Kings,
    > Cheltenham. Her patriarchal grandparents had recently moved down from their
    > rectory near Newcastle Upon Tyne, hence ending the estrangement of their
    > son. On the journey a huge mirror, which hung in their drawing room and
    > inspired the 'looking glass' story, did get damaged on the journey. Instead
    > of being the shiny mirror it was when it left the rectory, it developed
    > 'snowy' spots and brownish marks. That explains the 'snow' mystery.
    > For other unexplained details of Alice and her life, and from where I
    > obtained most of my info, you might want to read my book, "Under His Hat,"
    > the true story of Alice and her real life hatter, available at at
    > amazon.com or www.strategicbookpublishing.com/underhishat.html
    > Regards
    > Robert Batey
    >
    > On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 8:01 AM, <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com<lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>>
    > wrote:
    >
    > Lewis Carroll discussion
    > Messages In This Digest (5 Messages)
    > 1a.
    > Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: jenny2write
    > 1b.
    > Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: Arne Moll
    > 1c.
    > Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: Michael Everson
    > 1d.
    > Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: pleasanceone
    > 1e.
    > Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: jenny2write
    > View All Topics | Create New Topic
    > Messages
    > 1a.
    > Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
    > Posted by: "jenny2write" woolf@... <woolf%40jabberwock.co.uk>jenny2write
    > Tue May 26, 2009 4:09 am (PDT)
    >
    > Yep have done 1859 which would have been the year Alice was 7 and a half
    > exactly. Cloudy and a bit rainy, only snow that fell was on the 29th and
    > there wasn't much of that.
    > I suppose it could just have been allegorical snow
    >
    > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>,
    > Michael Everson <everson@...> wrote:
    > >
    > > Check the weather for the late 19th century?
    > >
    > > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
    > >
    >
    > Back to top
    > Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
    > Messages in this topic (8)
    > 1b.
    > Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
    > Posted by: "Arne Moll" arnemail@... <arnemail%40dds.nl> tokkietor2003
    > Tue May 26, 2009 4:19 am (PDT)
    >
    > Hi Jenny,
    >
    > Or it could just have been fictional snow, what with the book being a
    > work a fiction, no? :-)
    >
    > Best regards,
    > Arne
    >
    > Quoting jenny2write <woolf@... <woolf%40jabberwock.co.uk>>:
    >
    > > Yep have done 1859 which would have been the year Alice was 7 and a
    > > half exactly. Cloudy and a bit rainy, only snow that fell was on
    > > the 29th and there wasn't much of that.
    > > I suppose it could just have been allegorical snow
    > >
    > >
    > > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>,
    > Michael Everson <everson@...> wrote:
    > >>
    > >> Check the weather for the late 19th century?
    > >>
    > >> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
    > >>
    > >
    > >
    > >
    >
    > Back to top
    > Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
    > Messages in this topic (8)
    > 1c.
    > Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
    > Posted by: "Michael Everson" everson@... <everson%40evertype.com>evertype
    > Tue May 26, 2009 4:43 am (PDT)
    >
    > On 26 May 2009, at 12:08, jenny2write wrote:
    >
    > > I suppose it could just have been allegorical snow
    >
    > Or aspirational snow.
    >
    > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
    >
    > Back to top
    > Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
    > Messages in this topic (8)
    > 1d.
    > Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
    > Posted by: "pleasanceone" haddoxeyes@...<haddoxeyes%40bigpond.com>pleasanceone
    > Tue May 26, 2009 6:50 am (PDT)
    >
    > Hi Jenny,
    >
    > They didn't have a Global Financial Crisis then, so snow was cheaper to
    > make and therefore more abundant and people could afford to have it covering
    > everything in a lovely white blanket. Today things are going up in price,
    > and what with the cost of labour and the need to use less energy and of
    > course less water....well snow just isn't as economically viable as it once
    > was. They also didn't have global warming yet, to melt the smaller quantity
    > of snow that is produced each year.
    > Probably why snow didn't catch on very much in this part of the world...
    >
    > Ciao
    > Deb
    >
    > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>,
    > JEREMY BROWNING <jeremy.browning@...> wrote:
    > >
    > > Suspect you may be younger than some of us, Jenny - I'm 52 and pretty
    > certain I can recall a couple of snowy bonfire nights in the mid-60s. But
    > maybe I'm wrong.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > J.
    > >
    > > --- On Tue, 26/5/09, jenny2write <woolf@...> wrote:
    > >
    > >
    > > From: jenny2write <woolf@...>
    > > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
    > > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>
    > > Date: Tuesday, 26 May, 2009, 9:16 AM
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Through the Looking Glass is set on November 4th (the boys are gathering
    > wood for the bonfire, and it's also the day when Alice is 7 and a half
    > exactly)
    > >
    > > So why is it snowing hard? I don't remember it EVER snowing this early in
    > the year, and certainly not snowing hard.
    > >
    > > Jenny Woolf
    > > www.jabberwock. co.uk/blog
    > >
    >
    > Back to top
    > Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
    > Messages in this topic (8)
    > 1e.
    > Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
    > Posted by: "jenny2write" woolf@... <woolf%40jabberwock.co.uk>jenny2write
    > Tue May 26, 2009 3:34 pm (PDT)
    >
    > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>, Arne
    > Moll <arnemail@...> wrote:
    > >
    > > Hi Jenny,
    > >
    > > Or it could just have been fictional snow, what with the book being a
    > > work a fiction, no? :-)
    > >
    > > Best regards,
    > > Arne
    >
    > Fiction? Omigod!
    >
    > Now you mention it....
    >
    > Back to top
    > Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
    > Messages in this topic (8)
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    1b.

    Re: Digest Number 2621

    Posted by: "Keith" keith@...   keith_alan_wright

    Mon Jun 8, 2009 6:33 am (PDT)



    Robert,

    ignoring hearsay, which is not valid when making such a claim, the documentary evidence points to H.G. Liddell being in contact with his parents on an ordinary son-parent basis throughout his life. Are you saying that this evidence was manufactured? A very odd thing to do, invent letters to parents when all that is needed is just not to mention the parents.

    What date was the Who's Who entry you mention? Who's Who was not published until 1849 and Coffee Johnny was born in 1828. By the time Who's Who came into being Liddell was headmaster of Westminster school (1846- 1855) and had been appointed domestic chaplain to Prince Albert (1845) and yet nobody but the editor of Who's Who knew he was estranged from his parents or why?

    I have read your book, that is why I am seeking proper evidence for what you are saying!

    Keith

    From: Robert Batey
    Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 2:05 PM
    To: No Reply
    Cc: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2621

    Keith,
    My evidence that Henry George Liddell was estranged by his parents came from my father and grandfather, besides a contact who must unfortunately remain confidential. My father and grandfather had pleanty of knowledge of the Liddells, which becomes understandable if you read my book, 'Under His Hat', available through www.amazon.com or www.strategicbookpublishing.com/underhishat.html , where my royalties go to children's homes (sorry about the plug, but it is relevant).
    Also, you can find details of Dean Henry George's Liddell via Who's Who, in which he is described as the estranged son of Rector Henry George Liddell and Charlotte Lyon (of the Bowes Lyon lot).
    Of course, there was some contact between Henry and his parents, but it was minimal - until his parents became so proud of their genius son, his fame, and his contribution to English education and the arts, that it eventually put everything right.
    Regarding the 'snow' in the huge mirror, of 'Looking Glass' fame, my sources above also confirmed that most of Alice's grandparent's personal effects, furniture, and the now famous looking glass, did indeed come from Easington Rectory to Alice's grandparents house 'Hetton Lawn', Charlton Kings, near Cheltenham. On the journey, probably by weather exposure, the 'snow', and some brownish spots, appeared on the mirror.
    Best regards
    Robert H. Batey

    On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 6:47 AM, <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

    Lewis Carroll discussion
    Messages In This Digest (3 Messages)
    1a.
    Re: Photo copyright info From: oldjoesoap
    1b.
    Re: Photo copyright info From: Melanie Benjamin
    2a.
    Re: Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2615 From: Keith
    View All Topics | Create New Topic
    Messages
    1a.
    Re: Photo copyright info
    Posted by: "oldjoesoap" oldjoesoap@... oldjoesoap
    Thu Jun 4, 2009 8:17 am (PDT)

    Melanie,

    Several newspaper photos of Alice appeared in 1932 when she went to America to celebrate LC's centenary, her own eightieth birthday, and the seventieth anniversary of the first telling of Alice's Adventures Underground. She was only 79 when she received her honorary doctorate at Columbia University but 80 when she went to call on Abraham Rosenbach, to whom she had sold her little book - for what turned out to be a bargain price - in 1928. Dr. Rosenbach had some portrait photos taken in honour of her visit and they are now in the Rosenbach Museum in Philadelphia. You might want to take a look. I hope this url works!:

    http://rosenbach.pastperfect-online.com/32739cgi/mweb.exe?request=record;id=DFBF3F43-1203-476F-9728-987030537960;type=102

    J

    --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...> wrote:
    >
    > That's a good idea. I did just contact the National Gallery in London, which also has a print of Alice at 18, asking the same thing - how much they would charge for permission to use the image from their site. (I know they do charge; they made it clear that while the original photo is out of copyright, most copies and scans of the photograph, including the one on their site and in their collection, are not.)
    >
    > The beggar girl photo is available on Wikipedia Commons, so I thought I could use that image. However, Alice at 18 is not on that site.
    >
    > It all seems so very simple, at first glance. Of course, nothing ever is!
    >
    >> > > From: Melanie Benjamin
    > > > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
    > > > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
    > > > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome. Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
    > > >
    > > > My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.) The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so. Still, I need to be certain. I'm still researching the later photograph. If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it.
    > > >
    > > > (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago. Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)
    > > >
    > > > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
    > > >
    > >
    >

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    Messages in this topic (19)
    1b.
    Re: Photo copyright info
    Posted by: "Melanie Benjamin" melaniebenjamin@... melaniebenjamin@...
    Thu Jun 4, 2009 9:02 am (PDT)

    Joe, thank you - I knew of this photo, and in fact had found the collection it was in on this site, but had somehow missed the photo itself. It, too, is in a collection at the Morgan Library as well, and I emailed them yesterday about it. I'll email the Rosenbach site as well.

    I will have quite a few people to thank from this site, in the book!

    Melanie

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: oldjoesoap
    To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 10:17 AM
    Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Photo copyright info

    Melanie,

    Several newspaper photos of Alice appeared in 1932 when she went to America to celebrate LC's centenary, her own eightieth birthday, and the seventieth anniversary of the first telling of Alice's Adventures Underground. She was only 79 when she received her honorary doctorate at Columbia University but 80 when she went to call on Abraham Rosenbach, to whom she had sold her little book - for what turned out to be a bargain price - in 1928. Dr. Rosenbach had some portrait photos taken in honour of her visit and they are now in the Rosenbach Museum in Philadelphia. You might want to take a look. I hope this url works!:

    http://rosenbach.pastperfect-online.com/32739cgi/mweb.exe?request=record;id=DFBF3F43-1203-476F-9728-987030537960;type=102

    J

    --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...> wrote:
    >
    > That's a good idea. I did just contact the National Gallery in London, which also has a print of Alice at 18, asking the same thing - how much they would charge for permission to use the image from their site. (I know they do charge; they made it clear that while the original photo is out of copyright, most copies and scans of the photograph, including the one on their site and in their collection, are not.)
    >
    > The beggar girl photo is available on Wikipedia Commons, so I thought I could use that image. However, Alice at 18 is not on that site.
    >
    > It all seems so very simple, at first glance. Of course, nothing ever is!
    >
    >> > > From: Melanie Benjamin
    > > > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
    > > > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
    > > > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome. Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
    > > >
    > > > My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.) The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so. Still, I need to be certain. I'm still researching the later photograph. If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it.
    > > >
    > > > (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago. Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)
    > > >
    > > > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
    > > >
    > >
    >

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    Messages in this topic (19)
    2a.
    Re: Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2615
    Posted by: "Keith" keith@... keith_alan_wright
    Thu Jun 4, 2009 10:42 am (PDT)

    Robert,

    Just wondered if you had not got my request for evidence about the estrangement of Liddell from his parents?

    Keith

    Robert,

    Having read Liddell's biography and seen other evidence if you are correct about an estrangement then many letters must have been 'invented' and home visits manufactured in order to cover up an estrangement from his family. It also does not fit with the fact that Liddell wrote in 1856 to his mother thanking her for the present for the library and wrote a couple of weeks later about the fact that the Deanery was complete.

    The mirror at the house in Charlton Kings is huge and one wonders if it was transported down from the north. As you say, it suffers from decay now, as do many mirrors of that age, but whether it did in 1856 is debatable.

    Have you any proof of a rift between Liddell and his parents? He appears to have made many visits to his home in Easington, certainly as many as any student in pre-railway days could have made.

    Keith

    From: Robert Batey
    Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2009 9:36 PM
    To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2615

    Dear LC People,

    Yes, Alice was 7 and went to her grandfather's house in Charlton Kings, Cheltenham. Her patriarchal grandparents had recently moved down from their rectory near Newcastle Upon Tyne, hence ending the estrangement of their son. On the journey a huge mirror, which hung in their drawing room and inspired the 'looking glass' story, did get damaged on the journey. Instead of being the shiny mirror it was when it left the rectory, it developed 'snowy' spots and brownish marks. That explains the 'snow' mystery.
    For other unexplained details of Alice and her life, and from where I obtained most of my info, you might want to read my book, "Under His Hat," the true story of Alice and her real life hatter, available at at amazon.com or www.strategicbookpublishing.com/underhishat.html
    Regards
    Robert Batey

    On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 8:01 AM, <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

    Lewis Carroll discussion
    Messages In This Digest (5 Messages)
    1a.
    Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: jenny2write
    1b.
    Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: Arne Moll
    1c.
    Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: Michael Everson
    1d.
    Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: pleasanceone
    1e.
    Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass? From: jenny2write
    View All Topics | Create New Topic
    Messages
    1a.
    Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
    Posted by: "jenny2write" woolf@... jenny2write
    Tue May 26, 2009 4:09 am (PDT)

    Yep have done 1859 which would have been the year Alice was 7 and a half exactly. Cloudy and a bit rainy, only snow that fell was on the 29th and there wasn't much of that.
    I suppose it could just have been allegorical snow

    --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, Michael Everson <everson@...> wrote:
    >
    > Check the weather for the late 19th century?
    >
    > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
    >

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    Messages in this topic (8)
    1b.
    Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
    Posted by: "Arne Moll" arnemail@... tokkietor2003
    Tue May 26, 2009 4:19 am (PDT)

    Hi Jenny,

    Or it could just have been fictional snow, what with the book being a
    work a fiction, no? :-)

    Best regards,
    Arne

    Quoting jenny2write <woolf@...>:

    > Yep have done 1859 which would have been the year Alice was 7 and a
    > half exactly. Cloudy and a bit rainy, only snow that fell was on
    > the 29th and there wasn't much of that.
    > I suppose it could just have been allegorical snow
    >
    >
    > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, Michael Everson <everson@...> wrote:
    >>
    >> Check the weather for the late 19th century?
    >>
    >> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
    >>
    >
    >
    >

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    Messages in this topic (8)
    1c.
    Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
    Posted by: "Michael Everson" everson@... evertype
    Tue May 26, 2009 4:43 am (PDT)

    On 26 May 2009, at 12:08, jenny2write wrote:

    > I suppose it could just have been allegorical snow

    Or aspirational snow.

    Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

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    Messages in this topic (8)
    1d.
    Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
    Posted by: "pleasanceone" haddoxeyes@... pleasanceone
    Tue May 26, 2009 6:50 am (PDT)

    Hi Jenny,

    They didn't have a Global Financial Crisis then, so snow was cheaper to make and therefore more abundant and people could afford to have it covering everything in a lovely white blanket. Today things are going up in price, and what with the cost of labour and the need to use less energy and of course less water....well snow just isn't as economically viable as it once was. They also didn't have global warming yet, to melt the smaller quantity of snow that is produced each year.
    Probably why snow didn't catch on very much in this part of the world...

    Ciao
    Deb

    --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, JEREMY BROWNING <jeremy.browning@...> wrote:
    >
    > Suspect you may be younger than some of us, Jenny - I'm 52 and pretty certain I can recall a couple of snowy bonfire nights in the mid-60s. But maybe I'm wrong.
    >
    >
    >
    > J.
    >
    > --- On Tue, 26/5/09, jenny2write <woolf@...> wrote:
    >
    >
    > From: jenny2write <woolf@...>
    > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
    > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
    > Date: Tuesday, 26 May, 2009, 9:16 AM
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Through the Looking Glass is set on November 4th (the boys are gathering wood for the bonfire, and it's also the day when Alice is 7 and a half exactly)
    >
    > So why is it snowing hard? I don't remember it EVER snowing this early in the year, and certainly not snowing hard.
    >
    > Jenny Woolf
    > www.jabberwock. co.uk/blog
    >

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    1e.
    Re: Why is it snowing in Looking Glass?
    Posted by: "jenny2write" woolf@... jenny2write
    Tue May 26, 2009 3:34 pm (PDT)

    --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, Arne Moll <arnemail@...> wrote:
    >
    > Hi Jenny,
    >
    > Or it could just have been fictional snow, what with the book being a
    > work a fiction, no? :-)
    >
    > Best regards,
    > Arne

    Fiction? Omigod!

    Now you mention it....

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    1c.

    Re: Digest Number 2621

    Posted by: "oldjoesoap" oldjoesoap@...   oldjoesoap

    Mon Jun 8, 2009 9:40 am (PDT)



    Although Who's Who was published in 1849 onwards, it consisted of an Almanac and a series of lists - Royal Household, Navy Officers, Judiciary etc. By 1857, Henry Liddell gets two entries, one as a Dean of a cathedral, and one as the head of an Oxford College. No biographical details are included. Autobiographical details were not included until 1897 so Henry just squeezed in. I don't have a copy of the 1897 edition, but it seems rather unlikely that Henry would have confided details of a bust-up and reconciliation which had occurred so many years before. I wonder if we should be looking for a different book.
    J

    --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@...> wrote:
    >
    > Robert,
    >
    > ignoring hearsay, which is not valid when making such a claim, the documentary evidence points to H.G. Liddell being in contact with his parents on an ordinary son-parent basis throughout his life. Are you saying that this evidence was manufactured? A very odd thing to do, invent letters to parents when all that is needed is just not to mention the parents.
    >
    > What date was the Who's Who entry you mention? Who's Who was not published until 1849 and Coffee Johnny was born in 1828. By the time Who's Who came into being Liddell was headmaster of Westminster school (1846- 1855) and had been appointed domestic chaplain to Prince Albert (1845) and yet nobody but the editor of Who's Who knew he was estranged from his parents or why?
    >
    > I have read your book, that is why I am seeking proper evidence for what you are saying!
    >
    > Keith
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > From: Robert Batey
    > Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 2:05 PM
    > To: No Reply
    > Cc: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
    > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2621
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Keith,
    > My evidence that Henry George Liddell was estranged by his parents came from my father and grandfather, besides a contact who must unfortunately remain confidential. My father and grandfather had pleanty of knowledge of the Liddells, which becomes understandable if you read my book, 'Under His Hat', available through www.amazon.com or www.strategicbookpublishing.com/underhishat.html , where my royalties go to children's homes (sorry about the plug, but it is relevant).
    > Also, you can find details of Dean Henry George's Liddell via Who's Who, in which he is described as the estranged son of Rector Henry George Liddell and Charlotte Lyon (of the Bowes Lyon lot).
    > Of course, there was some contact between Henry and his parents, but it was minimal - until his parents became so proud of their genius son, his fame, and his contribution to English education and the arts, that it eventually put everything right.
    > Regarding the 'snow' in the huge mirror, of 'Looking Glass' fame, my sources above also confirmed that most of Alice's grandparent's personal effects, furniture, and the now famous looking glass, did indeed come from Easington Rectory to Alice's grandparents house 'Hetton Lawn', Charlton Kings, near Cheltenham. On the journey, probably by weather exposure, the 'snow', and some brownish spots, appeared on the mirror.
    > Best regards
    > Robert H. Batey
    >

    1d.

    Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2621

    Posted by: "Robert Batey" londnbob@...   londnbob67

    Mon Jun 8, 2009 10:20 am (PDT)



    ---------- Forwarded message ----------
    From: Robert Batey <londnbob@...>
    Date: Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 9:05 AM
    Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2621
    To: No Reply <notify-dg-lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com>
    Cc: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com

    Keith,
    My evidence that Henry George Liddell was estranged by his parents came from
    my father and grandfather, besides a contact who must unfortunately remain
    confidential. My father and grandfather had pleanty of knowledge of the
    Liddells, which becomes understandable if you read my book, 'Under His Hat',
    available through www.amazon.com or
    www.strategicbookpublishing.com/underhishat.html , where my royalties go to
    children's homes (sorry about the plug, but it is relevant).
    Also, you can find details of Dean Henry George's Liddell via Who's Who, in
    which he is described as the estranged son of Rector Henry George Liddell
    and Charlotte Lyon (of the Bowes Lyon lot).
    Of course, there was some contact between Henry and his parents, but it
    was minimal - until his parents became so proud of their genius son,
    his fame, and his contribution to English education and the arts, that it
    eventually put everything right.
    Regarding the 'snow' in the huge mirror, of 'Looking Glass' fame, my sources
    above also confirmed that most of Alice's grandparent's personal effects,
    furniture, and the now famous looking glass, did indeed come from Easington
    Rectory to Alice's grandparents house 'Hetton Lawn', Charlton Kings, near
    Cheltenham. On the journey, probably by weather exposure, the 'snow', and
    some brownish spots, appeared on the mirror.
    Best regards
    Robert H. Batey

    On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 6:47 AM, <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

    > Lewis Carroll discussion
    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll;_ylc=X3oDMTJhdmdudWlzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBHNlYwNoZHIEc2xrA2hwaARzdGltZQMxMjQ0MTk4ODIy>
    > Messages In This Digest (3 Messages) 1a. Re: Photo copyright info<http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&view=js&name=js&ver=t5AXlufMeJI.en.&am=b3EopeS3cCHIAb0i0fQ2wjIX0VE8IA#121b007795cd849d_1a>From: oldjoesoap 1b.
    > Re: Photo copyright info<http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&view=js&name=js&ver=t5AXlufMeJI.en.&am=b3EopeS3cCHIAb0i0fQ2wjIX0VE8IA#121b007795cd849d_1b>From: Melanie Benjamin 2a.
    > Re: Fwd: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2615<http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&view=js&name=js&ver=t5AXlufMeJI.en.&am=b3EopeS3cCHIAb0i0fQ2wjIX0VE8IA#121b007795cd849d_2a>From: Keith
    > View All Topics<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJjNTkzMTQwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawNhdHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjM-?xm=1&m=p&tidx=1>| Create
    > New Topic<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJjbGwxY3IzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjM->
    > Messages 1a. Re: Photo copyright info
    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/message/15185;_ylc=X3oDMTJvYTRjYzhvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBG1zZ0lkAzE1MTg1BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjM-> Posted
    > by: "oldjoesoap" oldjoesoap@...
    > <oldjoesoap@...?Subject=+Re%3A%20Photo%20copyright%20info> oldjoesoap
    > <http://profiles.yahoo.com/oldjoesoap> Thu Jun 4, 2009 8:17 am (PDT)
    >
    > Melanie,
    >
    > Several newspaper photos of Alice appeared in 1932 when she went to America
    > to celebrate LC's centenary, her own eightieth birthday, and the seventieth
    > anniversary of the first telling of Alice's Adventures Underground. She was
    > only 79 when she received her honorary doctorate at Columbia University but
    > 80 when she went to call on Abraham Rosenbach, to whom she had sold her
    > little book - for what turned out to be a bargain price - in 1928. Dr.
    > Rosenbach had some portrait photos taken in honour of her visit and they are
    > now in the Rosenbach Museum in Philadelphia. You might want to take a look.
    > I hope this url works!:
    >
    >
    > http://rosenbach.pastperfect-online.com/32739cgi/mweb.exe?request=record;id=DFBF3F43-1203-476F-9728-987030537960;type=102
    >
    > J
    >
    > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>,
    > "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...> wrote:
    > >
    > > That's a good idea. I did just contact the National Gallery in London,
    > which also has a print of Alice at 18, asking the same thing - how much they
    > would charge for permission to use the image from their site. (I know they
    > do charge; they made it clear that while the original photo is out of
    > copyright, most copies and scans of the photograph, including the one on
    > their site and in their collection, are not.)
    > >
    > > The beggar girl photo is available on Wikipedia Commons, so I thought I
    > could use that image. However, Alice at 18 is not on that site.
    > >
    > > It all seems so very simple, at first glance. Of course, nothing ever is!
    >
    > >
    > >> > > From: Melanie Benjamin
    > > > > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
    > > > > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>
    > > > > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as
    > I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in
    > January with Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as
    > an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very
    > welcome. Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
    > > > >
    > > > > My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the
    > 3 separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.)
    > The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So
    > there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar
    > child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I
    > believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a
    > photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar
    > child photo is in the public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not
    > the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of
    > the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so. Still, I need to be
    > certain. I'm still researching the later photograph. If anyone here knows
    > more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it.
    > > > >
    > > > > (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also
    > published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago.
    > Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her
    > point of view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward
    > Carroll.)
    > > > >
    > > > > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
    > > > >
    > > >
    > >
    >
    > Back to top
    > <http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&view=js&name=js&ver=t5AXlufMeJI.en.&am=b3EopeS3cCHIAb0i0fQ2wjIX0VE8IA#121b007795cd849d_toc>
    > Reply to sender
    > <oldjoesoap@...?Subject=Re%3A%20Photo%20copyright%20info>| Reply
    > to group
    > <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com?Subject=+Re%3A%20Photo%20copyright%20info>| Reply
    > via web post
    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJvdjFkNTF2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBG1zZ0lkAzE1MTg1BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjM-?act=reply&messageNum=15185>
    > Messages in this topic
    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/message/15167;_ylc=X3oDMTM0djg3ZGF0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBG1zZ0lkAzE1MTg1BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjMEdHBjSWQDMTUxNjc->(19)
    >
    > 1b. Re: Photo copyright info
    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/message/15186;_ylc=X3oDMTJvcDI1MXVhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkzMjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTA0NDMzBG1zZ0lkAzE1MTg2BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyNDQxOTg4MjM-> Posted
    > by: "Melanie Benjamin" melaniebenjamin@...
    > <melaniebenjamin@...?Subject=+Re%3A%20Photo%20copyright%20info>
    > melaniebenjamin@...
    > <http://profiles.yahoo.com/melaniebenjamin@...> Thu Jun 4, 2009
    > 9:02 am (PDT)
    >
    > Joe, thank you - I knew of this photo, and in fact had found the collection
    > it was in on this site, but had somehow missed the photo itself. It, too, is
    > in a collection at the Morgan Library as well, and I emailed them yesterday
    > about it. I'll email the Rosenbach site as well.
    >
    > I will have quite a few people to thank from this site, in the book!
    >
    > Melanie
    >
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: oldjoesoap
    > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>
    > Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 10:17 AM
    > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Photo copyright info
    >
    > Melanie,
    >
    > Several newspaper photos of Alice appeared in 1932 when she went to America
    > to celebrate LC's centenary, her own eightieth birthday, and the seventieth
    > anniversary of the first telling of Alice's Adventures Underground. She was
    > only 79 when she received her honorary doctorate at Columbia University but
    > 80 when she went to call on Abraham Rosenbach, to whom she had sold her
    > little book - for what turned out to be a bargain price - in 1928. Dr.
    > Rosenbach had some portrait photos taken in honour of her visit and they are
    > now in the Rosenbach Museum in Philadelphia. You might want to take a look.
    > I hope this url works!:
    >
    >
    > http://rosenbach.pastperfect-online.com/32739cgi/mweb.exe?request=record;id=DFBF3F43-1203-476F-9728-987030537960;type=102
    >
    > J
    >
    > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com>,
    > "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...> wrote:
    > >
    > > That's a good idea. I did just contact the National Gallery in London,
    > which also has a print of Alice at 18, asking the same thing - how much they
    > would charge for permission to use the image from their site. (I know they
    > do charge; they made it clear that while the original photo is out of
    > copyright, most copies and scans of the photograph, including the one on



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