Greetings to all.  I'm also very new to this idea of income-
and social-security- taxes being illegal.  Please forgive me
if my comments seem naive.

I'm frankly a bit dumb-founded at the reply, below.  It seems
to say that a law that was improperly included/adopted/ratified
will be upheld by a jury.  Have I misunderstood the message?

To my simple mind, if the 16th amendment was improperly ratified
then it's content ought to be irrelevant to -any- decision a jury
makes.  No?

Thank you for this list, and thank you in advance for your replies.

Richard

"Lend your voices only to sounds of freedom.  No longer
  lend your strength to that which you wish to be free from.
  Fill your lives with love and bravery and you will lead a
  life uncommon."
     -from the song "Life Uncommon" by Jewel (Spirit album)

  <379537bb.e966e9c-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-income-tax/?s
tart=20
> Ratified, smatified!  What difference?  Better hook your star to a
better
> argument than that if you expect any satisfaction from a jury.
>
> GFTL2@... wrote:
>
> > I would be very interested in any info you may have regarding the
16th
> > Amendment. I'm new to this organization as well but am in the
middle of a
> > number of  governmental bureaucratic fights. This has hightened my
awareness
> > of government wrong doing.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
> > Was the salesman clueless?
> > Productopia has the answers.
> > http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/555
> >
> > eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-income-t
ax
> > http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
>
>


------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Check out the Reliance Defense material from the Free Enterprise
Society, Fresno, California--they have a website, or contact Bill
Benson.


<7n3hpi$b8r-@egroups.com> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-income-tax/?s
tart=17
>  <19990716162726.18732.qmai-@...> wrote:
> original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-income-tax/
?s
> tart=10
> > Sir;
> >
> > This is my first look at your organization, but right out of the box
> I have
> > to tell you this:
> >
> > You are right in that the 16th Amendment was never properly
ratified,
> but
> > the fact is that this argument has never won in any legal battle as
> far as I
> > know.  There are strategies that have been successful, and I will
> point you
> > to those if you are interested.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Pete Holmes
> >
> > Mr. Holmes,
>   Please post the strategies mentioned above or e-mail me at lynleon@
>   earthlink.net  I am trying to figure a response to IRS notice
CP-515.
>   Thanks,
>   Lynda Leonard
> > _______________________________________________________________
> > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
> >
>
>


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This is my first look at your discussion
group, so please forgive
a new-comer, but, to whom do we owe the "National Debt"? 
Freom Whom 
do we, the United States, borrow United States dollars?????

al

Welcome aboard!  You have a lot to learn.

The income tax is only a symptom of debt, i.e.  US obligations owned by
individuals, businesses, pension funds, banks, and foreign countries, etc.

Instead one needs to look at the cause of the debt and not its symptoms,
i.e. cause and effect.

What has caused the national debt is the private control and ownership  of
America's money supply by the Federal Reserve System.   This monetary system
is based on debt.  Therefore, because only the principal is placed into
circulation it is mathematically impossible to pay back both principle and
interest.  It is the very definition of a "Ponzi" Scheme.

As the Board of Governors confessed in their book, "The Federal Reserve, Its
Purpose and Functions":  "Although the title to the Nation's Gold is in the
name of the Treasury, the Federal Reserve Banks lay claim on the entire gold
stock in the form of gold-certificates"

In other words, as a result of this "Ponzi" scheme we have no gold.  They
gave us debt paper and we gave them our gold.   So if I had to say who do we
owe the debt to, I would say we can thank the Money Changers!

"Interest is the invention of Satan." Thomas Edison

Constitutionally speaking, the whole thing is a farce.

Unfortuantely, they have the gavel and the gun!  And, Tyranny has raised its
head in the United States of America.

As the good book says, "Lest we give them offense."

-----Original Message-----
From: GFTL2@... <GFTL2@...>
To: legality-of-income-tax@egroups.com <legality-of-income-tax@egroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 6:14 PM
Subject: [legality-of-income-tax] Re: Never Ratified...


>I would be very interested in any info you may have regarding the 16th
>Amendment. I'm new to this organization as well but am in the middle of a
>number of  governmental bureaucratic fights. This has hightened my
awareness
>of government wrong doing.
>
>Jeff
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Was the salesman clueless?
>Productopia has the answers.
>http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/555
>
>
>
>eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-income-tax
>http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
>
>
>




------------------------------------------------------------------------

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WE owe the debt to WE THE PEOPLE. Thats right us. The US government borrows
money in the form of bonds. T-BIlls, US Saving bonds,etc, etc. Anytime the
gov't borrows money out or pays interest to someone. It must come from
somebody.
This is just the tip of the iceburg.

In addition to this the US is the largest lender of money to foreign
governments. This money that we give out can be measured in the billions.
Many times its never paid back. What would you do if someone borrowed money
from you lets say $10,000.00
and then called you on the phone and said sorrey I cat pay it back. But can I
borrow more. If it was you or me I would say "GO TO HELL" or something like
that. You get my draft. But, if your name is UNCLE SAM he says sure how much
would you like this time. Any wonder why we have problems and have a trillion
dollar debt.

If you really want to learn more take a class in Economics at a local
community collage. This will give you a basic foundation to start with. Read
the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, Finanical Times, US News and World
Report, Washington Post. These are some of the best sources for money
inforation. Not People, Newsweek, TV Guide. Full is ok if your filling a
mattress but not for your head.

Good luck

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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check out Bill Benson's material - freedomabovefortune.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications

Jeff:
Look at <A HREF="http://www.networkusa.org">http://www.networkusa.org</A>
Here you will find Larry BeCraft's web site - DixieLand Law Journal. Larry is
an attorney here in Huntsville, Alabama and has been involved in litigation
involving various government agencies (primarily IRS) for many years.

Tim Yarbrough

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Al:
Take a look at <A HREF="http://www.networkusa.org">http://www.networkusa.org
</A> There you will find DixieLand Law Journal. Enter and look at the money
issues as well as the national debt issues. You may also want to consider
looking at
<A HREF="http://www.devvy.com">http://www.devvy.com</A>

Tim Yarbrough

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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How can you believe bad case law comes from courts that are totally corrupt?
It's all bad.  Even when you find some case law to use in your favor, the
opposition comes forth with case law that refutes your cites.  Guess who the
judge goes along with?

MAX wrote:

> Although the courts are filled with corruption and they eventually do
> whatever the damn well please, many patriots have helped in setting bad case
> precedent.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pete Holmes <airpetey@...>
> To: legality-of-income-tax@egroups.com <legality-of-income-tax@egroups.com>
> Cc: ninaangel@... <ninaangel@...>
> Date: Monday, July 19, 1999 7:49 PM
> Subject: [legality-of-income-tax] Never Ratified...
>
> >Sir;
> >
> >This is my first look at your organization, but right out of the box I have
> >to tell you this:
> >
> >You are right in that the 16th Amendment was never properly ratified, but
> >the fact is that this argument has never won in any legal battle as far as
> I
> >know.  There are strategies that have been successful, and I will point you
> >to those if you are interested.
> >
> >Best regards,
> >Pete Holmes
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________________________
> >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! No min. purchase req.
> >Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS99
> >at checkout.  http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/463
> >
> >
> >eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-income-tax
> >http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
> >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Don't know which one to buy? Productopia does.
> http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/554
>
> eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-income-tax
> http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications


------------------------------------------------------------------------

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There's no such thing as U.S. dollars according to the coinage act of 1790
which has never been changed.

Winston Smith will give you a hundred pounds of whatever it is the
government spends.

grnpstr@... wrote:

> This is my first look at your discussion group, so please forgive
> a new-comer, but, to whom do we owe the "National Debt"?  Freom Whom
> do we, the United States, borrow United States dollars?????
>
> al
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Want the power to purchase wisely? Productopia has the answers.
> http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/553
>
> eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-income-tax
> http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications


------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Ratified, smatified!  What difference?  Better hook your star to a better
argument than that if you expect any satisfaction from a jury.

GFTL2@... wrote:

> I would be very interested in any info you may have regarding the 16th
> Amendment. I'm new to this organization as well but am in the middle of a
> number of  governmental bureaucratic fights. This has hightened my awareness
> of government wrong doing.
>
> Jeff
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Was the salesman clueless?
> Productopia has the answers.
> http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/555
>
> eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-income-tax
> http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications


------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Jeff,

I'm affiliated with a group of entrepreneurs that market information pertaining
to exactly what your looking for. Very interesting info I might add. Call
1-800-320-9895 x-1875.

Best regards,
Kay

--
NW Financial Services
http://www.topsecrets100.com/index.php3?code=87517
http://www.prostepinc.com/proweb/?16052


GFTL2@... wrote:

> I would be very interested in any info you may have regarding the 16th
> Amendment. I'm new to this organization as well but am in the middle of a
> number of  governmental bureaucratic fights. This has hightened my awareness
> of government wrong doing.
>
> Jeff
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Was the salesman clueless?
> Productopia has the answers.
> http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/555
>
> eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-income-tax
> http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications





------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Bill Benson is the author of "THE LAW THAT NEVER WAS" .  Here is the
information found on the givemeliberty site about how to contact him:  It is
well worth the time and money spent to know the history, the law and the
fraud.

*Source: The Law That Never Was, by William Benson. Volume I published in
1985, Volume II published in 1986. Published by Constitutional Research
Assoc., Box 550, South Holland, IL 60473. Mr. Benson can be reached by
telephone at (708) 596-3142.

Good luck, There is much to learn.
Debbie
-----Original Message-----
From: GFTL2@... <GFTL2@...>
To: legality-of-income-tax@egroups.com <legality-of-income-tax@egroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 4:14 PM
Subject: [legality-of-income-tax] Re: Never Ratified...


>I would be very interested in any info you may have regarding the 16th
>Amendment. I'm new to this organization as well but am in the middle of a
>number of  governmental bureaucratic fights. This has hightened my
awareness
>of government wrong doing.
>
>Jeff
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Was the salesman clueless?
>Productopia has the answers.
>http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/555
>
>
>
>eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-income-tax
>http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
>
>
>
>
>




------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-income-tax
http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications

<19990716162726.18732.qmai-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-income-tax/?s
tart=10
> Sir;
>
> This is my first look at your organization, but right out of the box
I have
> to tell you this:
>
> You are right in that the 16th Amendment was never properly ratified,
but
> the fact is that this argument has never won in any legal battle as
far as I
> know.  There are strategies that have been successful, and I will
point you
> to those if you are interested.
>
> Best regards,
> Pete Holmes
>
> Mr. Holmes,
   Please post the strategies mentioned above or e-mail me at lynleon@
   earthlink.net  I am trying to figure a response to IRS notice CP-515.
   Thanks,
   Lynda Leonard
> _______________________________________________________________
> Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
>


------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Hello!

GFTL2@... wrote:

> I would be very interested in any info you may have regarding the 16th
> Amendment.

Try these links:  http://www.nrst.com/16thhist.htm ,
http://www.givemeliberty.org/people/billbenson.htm , also you might want to
order both of Bill's books -- 'The Law That Never Was" vol. I & vol II.   $66
for both. Send orders to:
Bill Benson
PO Box 550
South Holland, IL 60473-0550

Bill Galkowski
  willow@...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
--

> I'm new to this organization as well but am in the middle of a
> number of  governmental bureaucratic fights. This has hightened my awareness
> of government wrong doing.
>
> Jeff
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Was the salesman clueless?
> Productopia has the answers.
> http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/555
>
> eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-income-tax
> http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications


------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Read "The Creature from Jekyll Island, A Second Look at the Federal Reserve"
by G. Edward Griffin.  It can be ordered from American Media P.O. Box 4646
Westlake Village, CA 91359-1646 or call toll free 1-800-595-6596 , or order
over the internet at:
http://www.realityzone.com

There is another site on the net which I have found very helpful regarding
the money, credit, etc.    That is: http://www.networkusa.org/index.shtml
this is attorney Larry Becraft's site and he has great explanations on a
varity of topics.  I think the title of his site is The Dixieland Law
Journal.

I haven't figured it all out as of    yet, but my current understanding is
the government borrows from the Federal Reserve, a cartel of international
bankers, who in turn buy the money for pennies on the paper it is printed on
from  the US Treasury, then issue it into circulation upon the credit of the
United States.  They charge interest on the money loaned which goes into the
coffers of the bank, not one penny returning to the government or the
people.    The constitution allows only Congress the power to mint the money
of the nation, which they do through the Treasury.  There is nothing in law
which allows the Congress to delegate this power of issuance to a private
cartel of  bankers.  Although Federal Reserve  implies the Federal
Government, it is  a private cartel of international bankers connected to
the Federal Government  by appointment of members of the board made by the
President.  Greenspan was such an appointment.  The workings of the Federal
Reserve have never been audited, nor does Congress have any power to reign
them in.  This is excessively simplified to meet my own need for
understanding. You will find Becraft and Griffin's work clear and to the
point with a great deal more detail, but it is comprehensible to those of us
just starting on this course of study.

Good luck.

-----Original Message-----
From: grnpstr@... <grnpstr@...>
To: legality-of-income-tax@eGroups.com <legality-of-income-tax@eGroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 4:29 PM
Subject: [legality-of-income-tax] Re: national debt?


>This is my first look at your discussion group, so please forgive
>a new-comer, but, to whom do we owe the "National Debt"?  Freom Whom
>do we, the United States, borrow United States dollars?????
>
>al
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Want the power to purchase wisely? Productopia has the answers.
>http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/553
>
>
>eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-income-tax
>http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
>
>
>
>
>




------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-income-tax
http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications

This is my first look at your discussion group, so please forgive
a new-comer, but, to whom do we owe the "National Debt"?  Freom Whom
do we, the United States, borrow United States dollars?????

al


------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-income-tax
http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications

Although the courts are filled with corruption and they eventually do
whatever the damn well please, many patriots have helped in setting bad case
precedent.
-----Original Message-----
From: Pete Holmes <airpetey@...>
To: legality-of-income-tax@egroups.com <legality-of-income-tax@egroups.com>
Cc: ninaangel@... <ninaangel@...>
Date: Monday, July 19, 1999 7:49 PM
Subject: [legality-of-income-tax] Never Ratified...


>Sir;
>
>This is my first look at your organization, but right out of the box I have
>to tell you this:
>
>You are right in that the 16th Amendment was never properly ratified, but
>the fact is that this argument has never won in any legal battle as far as
I
>know.  There are strategies that have been successful, and I will point you
>to those if you are interested.
>
>Best regards,
>Pete Holmes
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! No min. purchase req.
>Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS99
>at checkout.  http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/463
>
>
>eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-income-tax
>http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
>
>
>




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<19990716162726.18732.qmai-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-income-tax/?s
tart=10
> Sir;
>
> This is my first look at your organization, but right out of the box
I have
> to tell you this:
>
> You are right in that the 16th Amendment was never properly ratified,
but
> the fact is that this argument has never won in any legal battle as
far as I
> know.  There are strategies that have been successful, and I will
point you
> to those if you are interested.
>
> Best regards,
> Pete Holmes

This argument IS winning, but not in the courts because the government
doesn't want the information to come forward in a public trial. Bill
Benson, since 1993, has been using a Reliance Defense strategy with his
documented books and backup letters from attorneys, accounts and other
tax experts to stop further harrasment of individuals at the IRS
contact level. Since 1994, according to Mr. Benson and the Free
Enterprise Society in Fresno, CA, who have been using this defense,
NONE of those individuals or entities properly using the Reliance
Defense package have had further troubles with the IRS--the IRS has
simply "gone away". Also, my understanding is that Bill Benson is
currently involved in litigation with his previous court case extending
back to the 1980's where it is his intention to expose this issue in
the courts once and for all. Readers should take the time to get to
know individuals like Mr. Benson, and other participants in the recent
Tax Symposium documented here by Mr. Schultz to understand the entire
16th amendment issue. It is good educational material that will assist
one in getting a bigger picture of the entire Constitutional tax
problems we face today.
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
>


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I would be very interested in any info you may have regarding the 16th
Amendment. I'm new to this organization as well but am in the middle of a
number of  governmental bureaucratic fights. This has hightened my awareness
of government wrong doing.

Jeff

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications

Sir;

This is my first look at your organization, but right out of the box I have
to tell you this:

You are right in that the 16th Amendment was never properly ratified, but
the fact is that this argument has never won in any legal battle as far as I
know.  There are strategies that have been successful, and I will point you
to those if you are interested.

Best regards,
Pete Holmes


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

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Hello:

Necessary functions of government are not paid for out of the tax dollars
collected. During the Regan administration the Grace Commission prepared a
report (one I would suggest everyone read) that states out of the taxes
collected most is applied to the interest on the national debt, and the the
waste is phenominal.  Functions of government are either borrowed money
(increasing the debt)  or are paid for through legitimate excise, duty taxes
etc.   The Grace Commission report can be obtained by requesting it from
your Congressman/woman.  It is old (1984) but as relevant today as when it
was done.


  There is a sink hole which the American people are paying with the wealth
of this nation.    If you haven't read "The Creature from Jekyll Island" by
G. Edward Griffin, I would suggest you do so.  It was a huge eye opener for
me.

There is a great deal more at stake than just the tax question.

Debbie

-----Original Message-----
From: oxbuck@... <oxbuck@...>
To: legality-of-income-tax@eGroups.com <legality-of-income-tax@eGroups.com>
Date: Sunday, July 11, 1999 11:36 AM
Subject: [legality-of-income-tax] Re: Need for a constitutional tax system.


> <7m7d4h$hcq-@egroups.com> wrote:
>original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-income-tax/?s
>tart=2
>> <html>Dear List:
>> Assuming as I do that the current federal tax law is based on an
>> unconstitutional amendment process, and assuming that taxes are still
>> needed for courts, national defense, emergency services and public
>> health; what would be the most likely tax system to pass muster under
>> the current constitution or an amended constitution?
>>
>> Bill VanAllen</html>
>>
>>
>> <hr><center></center>
>>
>>Bill:
>It seems that the Constitution is already quite clear on the methods of
>direct taxation, i.e. through apportionment among the several states.
>This forces Congress to have to "ask" the states for funding and then
>for the states to apportion that tax according to their various
>populations. To have to "ask" for something lessens the likelihood that
>spending would be frivilous. It would also make monetary requests
>highly visible and, perhaps subject to public debate. The Founders were
>wise enough to realize that this process would pose a deterrant to
>runaway spending, as well as do much to preserve accountability to the
>several states. It is my understanding that the Founders had the
>foresight to see that, without these controls, there could quickly rise
>a situation of runaway, unaccountable spending and massive growth of
>Federal jurisdiction. They had the wisdom to see human nature for what
>it was, and to "chain" it down. They didn't want "hidden"
>taxation--they wanted the federal government to  be accountable to the
>people from "whom they derived their just powers" only in the LIMITED
>areas in which the federal government was authorized to "provide for
>the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the
>blessing of liberty" to the people of the united States ("promoting"
>welfare isn't "becoming" welfare).
>
>The Free Enterprise Society in Fresno, CA. has made some great points
>regarding the deceptiveness of the national sales tax--they have a
>website.
>
>The federal government was authorized to levy certain taxes, i.e.
>import, export fees to run their affairs. It seems to me the best
>situation would be to go to the states for more money via
>apportionment. I personally do not think the Founders would favor any
>kind of value added or sales tax. First, the federal government would,
>like is currently being done, want business to collect their tax. This
>seems to me to be a direct violation of the Fourth Amendment. It
>exposes a business' business records to governemnt authorities. Second,
>it seems to conflict with, and superimpose federal jurisdiction, over
>that of the states. In my view, the Founders wanted most of the
>"action" to take place at the state level, where it would be more
>directly accountable to the people of that particular state. Isn't that
>one of the problems we have today--the states being "held hostage" to
>the whims and blackmail of the federal government?
>
>My conclusion? Let the federal government get their funding the way the
>Founders wanted them to: by staying within their interstate/foreign
>jurisdictions and keeping OUT of the intrastate jurisdictions of the
>individual states. This would allow us, as state citizens, to focus in
>on and be more diligent in making our states more accountable, whereas
>they have now become smaller units of the massive "beast" we know of as
>our Federal Government. It doesn't take too many brains to see that we
>have been duped into accepting the Federal Government as our "Savior"
>in almost every aspect of everyday life. This is obviously the
>slavery--even more profound that any ethnic bondage--from which the
>Founders warned us.
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-income-tax
>http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
>
>
>
>
>




------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Bill,

Without the income tax revenue, Congree will finally be in the position
of having to prioritize its spending by making tough choices, which is
what many people believe is what congressmen and women are paid to do
but have not been doing enough of--witness their failure to defend
Congress' war powers against usurpation by the Executive, at a cost of
up to $100 billion, including the cost of rebuilding everything we paid
to destroy.

If the income tax as we know it goes down, Congress would have
alternatives: 1) Congress could once again adopt a proposed
constitutional amendment, which the state legislatures would again have
an opportunity to pass, and if 3\4 of those state legislatures passed
it, Congress would then have the authority to adopt a law compelling
people fo file and pay an income tax; 2) Congress could adopt the "no
action" alternative, meaning it could decide to do without the revenue
from the income tax and downsize the size, scope, cost and lifestyle of
the government-- a back to basics approach; or (3) Congress could
decide to adopt another tax(es) which the original constitution gives
it the power to impose -- indirect taxes, which the people could avoid
if the wanted to, such as sales taxes.

Ultimately, it will be a politcal decision, subject to the give and
take of the people. The question now is, "What is our responsibility,
now that we know people are losing their homes and going to jail, and
the right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness of countless other
people is being infringed all because of the Income tax, which does not
appear to have any legal foundation?"


  <7m7d4h$hcq-@egroups.com> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-income-tax/?s
tart=2
> <html>Dear List:
> Assuming as I do that the current federal tax law is based on an
> unconstitutional amendment process, and assuming that taxes are still
> needed for courts, national defense, emergency services and public
> health; what would be the most likely tax system to pass muster under
> the current constitution or an amended constitution?
>
> Bill VanAllen</html>
>
>
> <hr><center></center>
>
>
> eGroups.com home: <a href="http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-i
ncome-tax">http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-income-tax</a><br>
> <a href="http://www.egroups.com">www.egroups.com</a> - Simplifying
group communications<br>
>


------------------------------------------------------------------------

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<7m7d4h$hcq-@egroups.com> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-income-tax/?s
tart=2
> <html>Dear List:
> Assuming as I do that the current federal tax law is based on an
> unconstitutional amendment process, and assuming that taxes are still
> needed for courts, national defense, emergency services and public
> health; what would be the most likely tax system to pass muster under
> the current constitution or an amended constitution?
>
> Bill VanAllen</html>
>
>
> <hr><center></center>
>
>Bill:
It seems that the Constitution is already quite clear on the methods of
direct taxation, i.e. through apportionment among the several states.
This forces Congress to have to "ask" the states for funding and then
for the states to apportion that tax according to their various
populations. To have to "ask" for something lessens the likelihood that
spending would be frivilous. It would also make monetary requests
highly visible and, perhaps subject to public debate. The Founders were
wise enough to realize that this process would pose a deterrant to
runaway spending, as well as do much to preserve accountability to the
several states. It is my understanding that the Founders had the
foresight to see that, without these controls, there could quickly rise
a situation of runaway, unaccountable spending and massive growth of
Federal jurisdiction. They had the wisdom to see human nature for what
it was, and to "chain" it down. They didn't want "hidden"
taxation--they wanted the federal government to  be accountable to the
people from "whom they derived their just powers" only in the LIMITED
areas in which the federal government was authorized to "provide for
the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the
blessing of liberty" to the people of the united States ("promoting"
welfare isn't "becoming" welfare).

The Free Enterprise Society in Fresno, CA. has made some great points
regarding the deceptiveness of the national sales tax--they have a
website.

The federal government was authorized to levy certain taxes, i.e.
import, export fees to run their affairs. It seems to me the best
situation would be to go to the states for more money via
apportionment. I personally do not think the Founders would favor any
kind of value added or sales tax. First, the federal government would,
like is currently being done, want business to collect their tax. This
seems to me to be a direct violation of the Fourth Amendment. It
exposes a business' business records to governemnt authorities. Second,
it seems to conflict with, and superimpose federal jurisdiction, over
that of the states. In my view, the Founders wanted most of the
"action" to take place at the state level, where it would be more
directly accountable to the people of that particular state. Isn't that
one of the problems we have today--the states being "held hostage" to
the whims and blackmail of the federal government?

My conclusion? Let the federal government get their funding the way the
Founders wanted them to: by staying within their interstate/foreign
jurisdictions and keeping OUT of the intrastate jurisdictions of the
individual states. This would allow us, as state citizens, to focus in
on and be more diligent in making our states more accountable, whereas
they have now become smaller units of the massive "beast" we know of as
our Federal Government. It doesn't take too many brains to see that we
have been duped into accepting the Federal Government as our "Savior"
in almost every aspect of everyday life. This is obviously the
slavery--even more profound that any ethnic bondage--from which the
Founders warned us.


------------------------------------------------------------------------

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http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications

Right on, Debbie, but let's not forget that one of the MAJOR mudholes
we have gotten ourselves into with our "representatives" is the issue
of "conflicts of interest" and "threats of retribution". When our
current "representatives" receive "cash, gifts, and political favors"
for their votes, when they take an oath to "defend the Constitution"
but continually violate it, or when they sit in fear that if they don't
go "along with the program" that their personal files will be
diseminated to the news media or that their political "career" will be
twarted by "senior" officials, it is no wonder we have sunk so low. As
one person so eloquently, but simply, put it: "We need statesmen, not
politicians." But you're so right about taxation. Take away their
"checkbook" and they can't spend. If they can't spend, they have to
"ask permission".

<7m7i7c$s39-@egroups.com> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-income-tax/?s
tart=3
> I have read Bill Benson's work, "The Law That Never Was" and find it
compelling and so well documented that it is inconceivable that neither
Congress nor the judiciary has taken it seriously.   Taxation, as we
know it in this country today,  is the means by which our
representation is being taken away.
>
> It is the machinery which ties each states hands, and removes
legislatures from access due to the contracts for Federal dollars(in
all programs).   The accountability of government is lost under the
current system and must be restored. States under original jurisdiction
are the most powerful,and most responsive elements of our form of
government (originally) but due to the lure of the tax dollars and
"federal programs",  this has been reversed under the policy of New
Federalism and attaching money to federal programs.  The recorded
history of the taxing machine seems to be at the root of this
particular evil, and should be addressed both as a taxing issue and
representation issue, locally, at the state level and in Congress.
>
> Bill Benson has provided an invaluable service in giving everyday
people a means to address the problem.   I just hope folks will   use
his documentation and contact every state legislator and
Congressman/woman they can to push for outright correction, AND
representation.  This is a national issue and one of profound
importance.  If the means of erroding our representative form of
government is corrected we stand a chance of maintaining our freedoms.
We are a long way and a long time into the current mess, but Mr.
Benson's work gives us hope and an invaluable tool with which to work.
>
> Debbie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


------------------------------------------------------------------------

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http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications

To all group members:  Hopefully, everyone is remaining current on the
facts and the issues regarding the legality of the income and social
security
taxes, by frequently checking our web site at www.givemeliberty.org

We have tentatively set the date for the summit meeting for Friday,
September 3,1999 in Washington at the National Press Club. We will set
the room up in the classroom style, which means the number of attendees
would be limited to 250. The cost will be minimal.

The purpose of the summit meeting will be to make sure everyone is in
agreement with respect to each step and phase of the "pro-active,
non-violent, mass-movement" to put an end to the federal income and
social security taxes.

At this point we are looking for representatives of state-level and
national good-government, constitutional-activist and general taxpayer
organizations, large or small, to attend the summit meeting.

Soon, those wishing to attend will be able to register directly on-line
either through this eGroup list or on www.givemeliberty.org. In the
meantime, if anyone is interested, send us a fax on (518)656-9724 or an
e-mail at acta@...

Stay well, and stay vigilent.

Bob Schulz


------------------------------------------------------------------------

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The only tax system I can see that the founding fathers approved of was
a duty tax on foreign imports.  And seeing as how our balance of trade
is so out of kilter, and the loss of our manufacturing jobs to third
world countries, this would make prefect sense.




  <7m7d4h$hcq-@egroups.com> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-income-tax/?s
tart=2
> <html>Dear List:
> Assuming as I do that the current federal tax law is based on an
> unconstitutional amendment process, and assuming that taxes are still
> needed for courts, national defense, emergency services and public
> health; what would be the most likely tax system to pass muster under
> the current constitution or an amended constitution?
>
> Bill VanAllen</html>
>
>
> <hr><center></center>
>
>
> eGroups.com home: <a href="http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-i
ncome-tax">http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-income-tax</a><br>
> <a href="http://www.egroups.com">www.egroups.com</a> - Simplifying
group communications<br>
>


------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/legality-of-income-tax
http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications

I have read Bill Benson's work, "The Law That Never Was" and find it compelling
and so well documented that it is inconceivable that neither Congress nor the
judiciary has taken it seriously.   Taxation, as we know it in this country
today,  is the means by which our representation is being taken away.

It is the machinery which ties each states hands, and removes legislatures from
access due to the contracts for Federal dollars(in all programs).   The
accountability of government is lost under the current system and must be
restored. States under original jurisdiction are the most powerful,and most
responsive elements of our form of government (originally) but due to the lure
of the tax dollars and "federal programs",  this has been reversed under the
policy of New Federalism and attaching money to federal programs.  The recorded
history of the taxing machine seems to be at the root of this particular evil,
and should be addressed both as a taxing issue and representation issue,
locally, at the state level and in Congress.

Bill Benson has provided an invaluable service in giving everyday people a means
to address the problem.   I just hope folks will   use his documentation and
contact every state legislator and Congressman/woman they can to push for
outright correction, AND representation.  This is a national issue and one of
profound importance.  If the means of erroding our representative form of
government is corrected we stand a chance of maintaining our freedoms.  We are a
long way and a long time into the current mess, but Mr. Benson's work gives us
hope and an invaluable tool with which to work.

Debbie








------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Is the income tax legal? A substantial body of evidence now demonstrates that the 16th Amendment was not ratified and that no law compels individuals to file and pay income tax. The We The People Foundation intends to get to the truth. 

This eGroup has been established as a forum for discussion and as a means to notify subscribers of our progress towards the truth. 


For more information please visit: 
http://www.givemeliberty.org

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