---

To: lastday@yahoogroups.com
From: lastday@...
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 03:27:12 +0000
Subject: [lastday] New format for Lastday.net

The website www.lastday.net presents a
new format that is more user friendly and interactive for those that
want to exchange views and comments with all the members of the site.
Stop by and take part in studying Endtime and Lastday events. Mel Miller

The website www.lastday.net presents a
new format that is more user friendly and interactive for those that
want to exchange views and comments with all the members of the site.
Stop by and take part in studying Endtime and Lastday events. Mel Miller

Dear David,

On our side of the Atlantic the Presbyterians are likely to be
Amillennialists (Amils). Baptists are more likely to have left the
Reformist view of the Endtime and adopted Dispensational Doctrines
brought to us from England by John Darby in the 1800s. As part of
his teaching the Millennial views of very early Church Fathers (and
Spurgeon)were revived. That teaching sees the Sheep Nations of
Matt.25 inheriting the earthly kingdom during the post S.C. of
Christ; but prior to the creation of the New Heaven and Earth.

I take exception to this view for multiple reasons. One: Jesus says
He will separate the "nations"; not individuals. Before the SC the
eternal state of Believers will already be settled on an individual
basis of Faith. Those who are not of Faith may be "kept alive"
only on condition they "are willing to die (Luke 17:33) and keep
begging (Greek text) to escape all the things that happenS on the
Day Christ appears (Luke 21:25-36) and to prevail (not be worthy;
Greek) to stand before the Son of Man". This term alone is
enough to indicate a reference to Jews being the Tribes of Earth
who "mourn" when they see "THE SIGN of the Son of Man in heaven"
about to come with all the Saints.

Two: While the Martyrs, who appear in the Temple of Heaven to praise
God and the Lamb for the first time, must "serve God in that Temple
for 1000 years" before it no longer may be called a Temple
(Rev.21:22), the nations "left behind" (Zech.14:16-21) must come
annually to worship God while Israel leads them. Zech.8:20-23. While
we "Reign with Christ on earth over these nations" (Rev.2:26),
Martyrs will be "serving God in heaven for 1000 years"; rewarded as
per Rev.3:12; Rev.7:15-17; Rev.20:4-6.

Three: The judgment at the "2nd death," while not a judgment of
nations, alone stands as the time when the Temple in heaven will no
longer exist after a testing time of 1000 years allows the buildup
of nations that either "inherit the eternal kingdom on earth" or
are the "nations that come against the Saints at Jerusalem and are
cast into Hell". Only the Beast and False Prophet will be in Hell
during the 1000-Year interim. Rev.19:20; Rev.20:8-10.

Four: The New Covenant, IMO, includes fulfillment of the Abrahamic
Covenant as it relates to the "nations" descending from the loins of
Abraham through the 12 Tribes of Ishmael. That Covenant requires
an "eternal kingdom on earth". When God confirmed His promise to
Abraham a year before Isaac was born and sealed it (in regard to
Isaac by his circumcision immediately thereupon at age 13), the
eternal aspect of Covenant blessing for the "rest of his natural
seed" waited to be fulfilled until God "concludes both Jews and
Gentiles in a state of rebellion" against His Revelation in Christ.
Rom.11:32-33.

Five: God designed that the New Jerusalem be "inhabited forever" by
the Bride of the Lamb which includes all the Saints from Adam to the
144,000 Jews who will be the "Firstfruit unto both God and the Lamb;
redeemed from earth, from among men" and taken to heaven on the very
Day the Lamb rescues them from Mt. Zion shortly after "the sun turns
dark, the whole moon to blood and the stars begin to fall from
heaven". Those of the "nations left behind" can only hope to inherit
the kingdom on earth after they "worship God and treat the brothers
of Jesus as they should treat Him". Matt.25:40.

Six: During the Millennium as well as eternity, nations must not
only come to Jerusalem (and New Jerusalem) to worship God but also
be "healed by the leaves of the tree of life". Ezek.47:12;
Rev.22:2. "Saved NATIONS (KJV) shall walk in the light of the New
Jerusalem and their kings shall bring the glory and honor of NATIONS
into it day or night". Rev.20:24-26.

This requirement will continue forever to be "blessed" by the 7th of
seven "blessings" in Revelation. "The leaves of the Tree of Life are
for healing the NATIONS. Blessed are those doing the commandments of
Jesus; that they may have right to the Tree of Life and may enter in
through the gates into the (heavenly) City". Rev.22:2,14.

Seven: The separation of Sheep and Goat Nations must wait until the
End of 1000 years! Only by viewing Christ's "sitting on His Throne"
in Matt.25:31 simply from the viewpoint of God's reckoning of "Time"
can we begin to understand what Peter meant by 1000 years being
"like a single Day to God"!!  2 Pet.3:8-10.  Dispensationalism went
astray when it determined the "Day of the Lord" is equivalent to the
Endtime of Daniel's 70th Seven, i.e., "3½ times plus 3½ times"!!!

[This determination became the flawed basis for putting the Rapture
in the Chart of the Revelation before the Seals rather than at the
7th Trumpet's "appointed (kairos) time" for Resurrection and
Rewards "to judge and reward the prophets and saints and all who
fear God" AND for Retribution on all those "destroying the earth"].
Rev.11:18; 2 Thess.1:7-10.

David, I will again appreciate your kind response.

Mel

Friends,

I just sent the following post to www.baptistboard.com as part of
the ongoing-discussion on a "Chart of Events in the Book of
Revelation". This was #72 in the postings under "Bible Study and
Theology".

If you attend this site, you will note the third paragraph is spread
out across the page instead of remaining the same length as the
first two paragraphs. When I sent the post at 6:30 AM, the length of
sentences in the final paragraph was the same as the sentences in
the first two paragraphs. Does anyone know what caused the
lengthening of just three sentences in the third paragraph? It's a
continuing phenomenon.
________________________________________________________
                       I WROTE:
We are all in UNION spiritually in Christ having become one in the
Faith! But Jesus' High Priestly Prayer was that we might be ONE in
His Truth!! One WORD about His Second Coming separates Believers
rancorously quite often!!!

In Ed's case, alone to my knowledge, that "word" is NOT the direct
word from the lips of Jesus that a specific "DAY" is appointed for
His return! It is agreed among all Believers that He promised to
"raise up all Believers on the last day"!! Disunity arises over the
meaning of the word "day"!!!
                      Why the Disunity?

Before we look at the origin of the Flaw in the Charts of the Book
of Revelation, please consider the basic result of the Flaw! That
basic result requires that the Day of the Lord must be expanded to
include the 70th Seven of Daniel's Prophecy!! Pre-Tribbers insist
the Rapture must occur prior to the 7-Year-Day (2520 days) that
begins at Dan.9:27; not after Matt.24:29 as mentioned in 24:36!!!
_______________________________________________________

This phenomenon has left me wondering why certain sentences are
often expanded in length across the page. My postings always have
a uniform length for each sentence. Changes occur instantly at the
moment of posting messages to the threads under discussion.

Mel Miller

Friends,

In response to the following exchange, James proposed that we
"agree to disagree". The big question is whether all Believers
will be "ready to meet Jesus at His coming and Presence"!

Originally Posted by James_Newman
"No brother, believers will be begging, but it will be too late,
because they should have been watching and praying now, before all
those things came to pass. Luke 21:25-36.

"Luke 21:36 is intended for the people that Jesus is speaking to,
His disciples, not Jews in the tribulation. Remember ye and they?
Jesus wants you living for Him now, not waiting for the tribulation
so your light can shine. But if you want to stick around, I'm sure
He will oblige".
__________________________________________________ ___________

Brother James,

It is perfectly obvious that Believers "watch" for Christ's coming,
even in the process of Armageddon's armies invading Israel; for
that's when Jesus "blesses" Believers for "watching" with imminent
expectation of His coming! Rev.16:14-16.

But there is no scripture that states we should "pray to escape"
what is coming on all earthdwellers following the SIGNS in the sun,
moon and stars and with the heavens rolling up like a scroll"!
Rev.6:12-14; Luke 21:34-35. When the armies have gathered to
Armageddon, Christ is coming to Deliver every Believer at the same
time He comes in flaming fire to destroy the wicked!! Every one who
is "called, elect (as well as faithful"; Rev.17:14) know Christ is
coming to deliver them ON the DAY of Vengeance!!! 2 Thess.1:5-11.

I'm sorry if you must refuse to acknowledge that Luke's account does
not mention Believers as those who should "beg to escape these
things" after they see THE SIGN of Christ's Presence! They "beg to
prevail" (not to be worthy since they would have been caught up to
meet the Lord prior to THE SIGN of His Presence if they had been
Believers)...because that is Paul's prayer OVER and OVER!! I Thess.
3:13; I Thess.5:23; 2 Thess.1:11. And Luke 21:25-36 applies ONLY to
those who may be "taken or left" after Christ "gathers us from earth
to heaven and sends the angels to complete our gathering from all
extremities of the heavenS"!!! Mk.13:27; Mt.24:31.

James, if you will check it out, please note that Jesus does not ask
us to pray at all in Matthew's account after we "know His coming is
near"! In Mark (KJV) He asks us to "watch and pray" only until
we "know what time it is"!! Matt.24:33; Mark 13:33. I ask you, sir,
are you open to the conviction that Jesus can only have "wrath upon
the Jews" in mind in Luke 21:22-36 where no mention is made of the
Elect who suffer during the great tribulation?!!!

Again, when you consider Luke 17:30-37, please note that, of the
ones who are "taken or left", one is obviously "taken in judgment
and fed to the birds" while the other will be "preserved; kept
alive" only if he is "willing to die"!

Believers will have proved they "love not their life unto death"
during the 1260-day Endtime when many will "overcome to the End"!!
Rev.12:11-14; Rev.2:25-27. You cannot prove the "end" here refers
only to those who "overcome" until the Pre-Trib Rapture!!!

Is it possible that you have not yet recognized (being "ignorant of"
as Paul says) that Jesus wishes to save those who "mourn" when
they "see Him come in the clouds"? Rev.1:7; Zech.12:10; Matt.24:30.
What is your exegesis of Rom.11:25 where God's mystery reveals that
the "complete end of the Jews' blindness will occur when Messiah
comes out of Zion"?

Because of the Jewish remnant's "election of grace" (Rom.11:5) at
Christ's return, "all Israel will be saved"! But, too late for the
Rapture, they are preserved only by "standing erect and looking up",
after they see Him appear and they "know their redemption is near"!!
Luke 21:28. Then begin to be "begging to escape" at each ticking
moment because "they will know their kingdom is near"!!! Luke 21:31.

It will require this instruction (to be preached by the Two
Witnesses) to warn them NOT to be overtaken with drunkenness! Why?
Lest they fail to be ready for "THE SIGN of Christ's Presence" as
the PROOF they will need to "beg to escape and be preserved; kept
alive" as Moses was "preserved in a basket" until he was rescued
(Read Acts 7:19 for the only other use of this word for being "kept
alive")!! We need to give God glory for the "mercy he will show to
the Jews and to all the tribes of earth"...including millions of
descendants of the 12 tribes of Ishmael!!!

Jesus did not mean for us to extract the truth of "imminency" from
Matt.24:36 which is meant for Believers prior to the End and make
Luke 21:36 a reference to Believers "begging to escape" after they
see Christ appear! Matt.24:29-30. Those who "mourn and beg to
escape" on the "Day and at the Hour" of His actual Presence are the
subjects who need last minute hope!! What we expect has nothing to
do with Jews who "mourn" at His Presence "immediately after the
great tribulation"...with armies gathered to destroy them!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net  God will have mercy on all. Rom.11:32.

Friends,

The phrase that introduces the open Temple, "after these things, I
saw and behold" (KJV; Rev.15:5; the best translation!), refers to
more than just a chronological event with respect to the Martyrs and
144,000 Jews entering the Temple. It refers to two entirely different
scenes, the first of which is a flashback to the seven angels who had
already EXITED the Temple and emptied their Vials. This is indicated
(1) by the fact that all Martyrs come out from under the Altar before
they ENTER the Temple and (2) by the two aorist indicatives (vs.1,4)
pointing to the Plagues having completed God's anger because they had
manifested His righteous deeds as being "just and holy" and (3) by
the sudden switch to aorist (future) subjunctive in Rev.15:8 and (4)
by the repetition of the phrase, "after these things, I saw, and
behold" in Rev.7:9 for the second scenario.

The 7 Plagues that finish God's anger and righteous deeds are already
past tense as of Rev.15:1-4 (etelesthay, #5055; ephanerothaysan,
#5319). But the nature and effects of the Plagues are still
anticipated and described (aorist subjunctive) to verify the justice
of and validate the reason for God's "great anger" (Rev.14:19) and
imminent wrath. This evidence requires the Martyrs to ENTER the
Temple after the last Plague suspends in the air and the "Hour of
Reaping" (Rev.14:7,15-19) leads to the G & W Sign in Rev.15:1-4.
After the last Vial Plague empties is when the Temple clears of
the "smoke of God's glory and power". Rev.15:7-8.

The Temple was OPEN during the Plagues but is filled with the smoke
of God's glory and power and men are still allowed to "repent" and
gather to Armageddon and Jesus warns that He is "coming as a thief"!
Rev.16:9-16. With the Last Plague suspended in the air, the Martyrs
ENTER the Temple into the presence of both God and the Lamb!! For its
Three-Act-Drama of Testimony and Praise of Rev.7:9-17; for the
Court's Tribunal and Prayers of Rev.8:1-5 and for the Triumph and
Portents of the Last Trump of Rev. 11:15-19 … with the Temple still
OPEN (vs.19)!!!

Seal #7 and Trump #7 follow the suspension of Plague #7 in the air!
The 7th Seal's Court of Judgment climaxes the Hour to Reap the wicked
to the "Winepress of God's great anger"!! But the full effects of the
7th Plague and 6th Seal await the 7th Seal and 7th Trumpet because,
with the Last Trump, God's wrath and the appointed time has come for
the three R's!!!

God's cup of anger and wrath pours out full strength after the angel
of the 7th Seal renders his Verdict by fire; after the 7th Trumpet's
first blast that God's wrath has come; after the 7th Plague implodes
from the air! If Seal Six is part of a 12-Hour Day of Wrath "after
the great tribulation", then the 7th Trumpet's wrath occurs on that
very day!! The armies will have already gathered to the plains of
Armageddon prior to events of that DAY ... and prior to the
Decree: "It is Done"!!! Rev.16:17.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

Friends,

"The Temple of the Tabernacle of Testimony was open(ed) in heaven".
Rev.15:5. It was also "open(ed)" when the 7th Trumpet sounds that
God's wrath had come and to announce the appointed time for three
R's. One: The (kairos) appointed time to judge (Resurrect) the
(saved) dead. Two: Appointed time to Reward prophets, saints and all
who fear God. Three: Appointed time to destroy earth's destroyers
(Retribution). Rev.11:18-19.

Relative to the time for the three R's at the 7th Trumpet; relative
to the 7 angels exiting the Temple to empty the 7 last Plagues and
relative to the martyrs entering the Temple as of Rev.15:5, when does
the Temple OPEN?

Which comes first? Do the 7 angels exit the Temple before or after the
martyrs sing their victory song of Moses? Why do 144,000 "Firstfruit
unto God and the Lamb" join them to sing the song of the Lamb before
the Temple OPENS? Rev.14:2-4; Rev.15:2-4. When is the Temple filled
with "smoke of God's glory and power when no one can enter"?
Rev.15:8.

Must the 7th Plague empty in the air before the Saints enter the OPEN
Temple and the 7th Trumpet sounds that "God's wrath has come" and
with it the "appointed time" for the three "R's"?

Just by reading the English text, God's Day of wrath includes the 6th
and 7th Seals and 7th Trumpet. But does it include the seven Plagues?
How can God's wrath come before the 7th Trumpet since no one enters
the open Temple until the last Plague empties in the air?! The seven
Trumpets could telescope out of the 7th Seal and the Plagues could
telescope out of the 7th Trumpet if the Martyrs could enter the
Temple to learn that "God's wrath has come" to avenge their blood
prior to the FIRST Plague!! But they are confined "under the Altar"
until the last one should be killed and the LAST Plague empties!!!

Also, Beast-worshipers are still allowed to "repent" during the
Plagues! The last Martyr must be killed and the Plagues must "exhaust
God's anger" (Greek text and New Jerusalem Bible) before anyone
enters the Temple!! The Plagues are described after the Martyrs come
out from under the Altar to show justification for having "exhausted
God's anger" and the appointed time has come to avenge their blood!!!

The Martyrs enter the Temple and, with the 7th Seal just broken,
witness the evidence in silence from within the Scroll just opened!
The silent display ends with the 6th of 7 Trumpets having killed two
billion people!! With the Temple "open" (11:19), the 7th Trumpet
announces: "God's wrath has come and the time appointed (kairos) to
resurrect the dead and reward the saints and to destroy earth's
destroyers"!!! Rev.11:18.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

Michael,
Thanks for the message below. The critics have gradually backed
down because a majority of Christians do not know or care to acknowledge the
difference between God's anger and wrath. Most of them are convinced they will
not suffer the pains of the coming tribulation since they are not "appointed to
(its) wrath". Little do they realize that God's wrath will occur on a single
12-Hour-Day!

Read Rev.15:1; 16:17-21 and note that God's anger (thumos; not wrath, orgay)
"was finished" and His wrath occurs when the last Plague empties "in the air"
and remains suspended during scenes in the open Temple. His wrath begins after
the Temple was "opened" as of 15:5 and Rev.11:19 where that wrath is announced
from heaven as "having come" for the first and only time. The Last Plague must
empty before anyone
"enters the Temple" for the messages of the 7th Trumpet! Rev.15:8.

Mel

Mel,
    I am sorry this e-mail was written to you, such ignorance on the writers
part.  My eyes were opened so much more after you read passages to me from your
Greek Bible and showed me the differences.  There are changes from the Greek
translations and I challenge anyone who thinks not to research in their
concordance the meaning of changed words.  I'm sure it takes much more time in
my case but it is all worth it to me.  I don't want the "Word" to be altered or
watered down when I read it.  No KJV for this guy.  I thank you eternally for
your sharing and mentoring of your perspective of the Bible and the book of
Revelation.  God bless you.

Michael

>From: "lastday23454" <lastday1@...>
>Reply-To: lastday@yahoogroups.com
>To: lastday@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [lastday] Tradition of Men
>Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 16:43:15 -0000
>
>"First of all, I don't claim to know Greek. Right now it doesn't
>interest me whatsoever. But I do know English - a little. (I know
>that "indignation" is very severe "anger") And I know my Bible - a
>little. (God's name is Jealous.)
>
>"If you think the KJV reveals God as incapable (or unwilling) to
>show, and express, anger, vengeance, wrath, indignation (English
>definition, not your personal definition), etc., then I'm afraid you
>need to look again.
>
>"But the implications (IMO) of what you are saying are this:
>
>"Mel has secret knowledge of what the Bible really says. The KJV
>translators were inferior. And if I really want to understand the
>Bible I must have Mel and his Greek. Lacy Evans
>______________________________________________________________
>
>The translators were not inferior; they DID know Greek! They knew it
>so well that they had to "devise" a method to avoid translating
>THUMOS as "anger" and thus break the taboo against attributing
>"anger" to God!! This is not a "secret" of mine but may be found
>under the definition of "anger" in the Dictionary of the Apostolic
>Church published in 1917!!!
>
>You don't need me and my Greek! You need to explain why THUMOS was
>not only never translated as "anger," but why the translators
>INVERTED the translation of these two words so as to protect
>the "tradition" handed down from Plato thru the Early Church Fathers
>who translated makro-thumia as "long-suffering" rather than "long-
>anger"! They inverted the tanslations in Eph.4:31; Col.3:8 and
>Rev.14:10!! But they didn't need to invert the translation in Rom.2:8
>where it is obvious, from Rom.2:4-5, that God's "long-anger" must be
>changed to "wrath" before His "indignation" turns to "wrath"!!!
>
>Lacy, you are using the same tactics to distort my view, accusing me:
>
>"You think that the KJV reveals God as incapable (or unwilling) to
>show and express anger, vengeance, wrath, indignation (English
>definition, not your personal definition), etc. I'm afraid you need
>to look again".
>
>Its the translators, not I, who deny God reveals His "anger"; but He
>does not reveal His wrath (orgay) until the Plagues "complete His
>anger; His thumos"! The KJV could have said: "Plagues complete His
>indignation" but they neither complete nor contain His wrath!!
>The "Cup of God's combined Anger and Wrath" does not pour out its
>deadly wine until AFTER the 7th Trumpet announces that "God's wrath
>has come" and the Last Plague empties in the air!!! Rev.16:17-21.
>[Note that "complete His indignation" appears right underneath the
>words to "complete His anger"!]
>
>This is not MY doctrine but the expose' of the "vain tradition of
>men" who refused to acknowledge God is affected by the human
>experience of "anger"!! They were "hung up" on what is now the
>English word "ANGER"; and still the Greek word THUMOS ... mis-
>translating it in two places to avoid linguistically translating
>thumos as "anger" EVEN with respect to humans!!! Eph.4:31; Col.3:8.
>Mel Miller
>
>Believers' unity requires that Day be a single day.
>Yahoo! Groups Links

robycop3, your assessment: Words are "a slight semantics matter"!

As the AV translators wrote:

Quote:
"For is the kingdom of God to become words or syllables? Why should
we be in bondage to them if we may be free, use one precisely when we
may use another no less fit, as commodiously?
__________________________________________________ ________

The translators were "IN BONDAGE to the tradition of men"! Col.2:8.
Did they exercise "freedom" by never translating THUMOS as "anger"
but in Col.3:8 switched (inverted) the translation of thumos and
orgay?? Must we remain in ignorance of the KRISIS-point of God's
ORGAY taking place on the DAY CHRIST COMES IN GLORY???

If Christians don't understand or warn unbelievers of the supreme
horror and total unexpectedness of God's wrath "coming on all those
who dwell on all the face of all the earth ON THE DAY CHRIST COMES",
and keep hiding their lethargy among the "trees" of so-called
synonyms of God's wrath, what glory is it for you to gloat in the
smugness of their stupor?

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

"First of all, I don't claim to know Greek. Right now it doesn't
interest me whatsoever. But I do know English - a little. (I know
that "indignation" is very severe "anger") And I know my Bible - a
little. (God's name is Jealous.)

"If you think the KJV reveals God as incapable (or unwilling) to
show, and express, anger, vengeance, wrath, indignation (English
definition, not your personal definition), etc., then I'm afraid you
need to look again.

"But the implications (IMO) of what you are saying are this:

"Mel has secret knowledge of what the Bible really says. The KJV
translators were inferior. And if I really want to understand the
Bible I must have Mel and his Greek. Lacy Evans
______________________________________________________________

The translators were not inferior; they DID know Greek! They knew it
so well that they had to "devise" a method to avoid translating
THUMOS as "anger" and thus break the taboo against attributing
"anger" to God!! This is not a "secret" of mine but may be found
under the definition of "anger" in the Dictionary of the Apostolic
Church published in 1917!!!

You don't need me and my Greek! You need to explain why THUMOS was
not only never translated as "anger," but why the translators
INVERTED the translation of these two words so as to protect
the "tradition" handed down from Plato thru the Early Church Fathers
who translated makro-thumia as "long-suffering" rather than "long-
anger"! They inverted the tanslations in Eph.4:31; Col.3:8 and
Rev.14:10!! But they didn't need to invert the translation in Rom.2:8
where it is obvious, from Rom.2:4-5, that God's "long-anger" must be
changed to "wrath" before His "indignation" turns to "wrath"!!!

Lacy, you are using the same tactics to distort my view, accusing me:

"You think that the KJV reveals God as incapable (or unwilling) to
show and express anger, vengeance, wrath, indignation (English
definition, not your personal definition), etc. I'm afraid you need
to look again".

Its the translators, not I, who deny God reveals His "anger"; but He
does not reveal His wrath (orgay) until the Plagues "complete His
anger; His thumos"! The KJV could have said: "Plagues complete His
indignation" but they neither complete nor contain His wrath!!
The "Cup of God's combined Anger and Wrath" does not pour out its
deadly wine until AFTER the 7th Trumpet announces that "God's wrath
has come" and the Last Plague empties in the air!!! Rev.16:17-21.
[Note that "complete His indignation" appears right underneath the
words to "complete His anger"!]

This is not MY doctrine but the expose' of the "vain tradition of
men" who refused to acknowledge God is affected by the human
experience of "anger"!! They were "hung up" on what is now the
English word "ANGER"; and still the Greek word THUMOS ... mis-
translating it in two places to avoid linguistically translating
thumos as "anger" EVEN with respect to humans!!! Eph.4:31; Col.3:8.
Mel Miller

skypair,

My Quote:
FOUR:
I agree that the "begging to escape" in Luke 21:36 directly "refers
only to Luke 21:35" because it occurs ON THE SAME DAY CHRIST IS
REVEALED FROM HEAVEN IN FLAMING FIRE TO TAKE VENGEANCE ON ALL WHO
REJECT THE GOSPEL. It also refers to "all THINGS that happens (plural
subject with singular verb) from the moment they see the signs
in the sun, moon and stars ON THAT SAME DAY!! Luke 21:25-34.]

Your response:
"21:35 is NOT Christ's return. Christ is coming with "snares?" Think
about it again".
______________________________________________________________

OK, lets's think again. Luke 21:27 IS Christ's return and verses 28-
31 reveal the response by those who are LEFT BEHIND. For it is clear,
from Matt.24:30, that those who "mourn" continue to do so after they
see the Son of Man appear!

It is clear from Luke 17:27-33 that, ON THE DAY CHRIST IS REVEALED,
there is precious little time to decide if one will perish or
be "kept alive"!

What is the initial reaction? When men see the signs of that DAY,
their hearts fail from fear ... not just at signs in the heavens; but
with the seas and surfs roaring from the giant tsunamis just before
the HOUR of Trial begins. Luke 21:25. There will be "distress and
perplexity among the nations at the sound of the waves" even before
the HOUR for the Son of Man to appear!

What is the continuing reaction? The Jews who "stand erect at the
beginning of these signs will begin to mourn when they see Christ
appear and they will "know their redemption is near"! Luke 21:28.
When they see the Son of Man appear, they will keep "begging to
prevail so as to stand before Him because they know their kingdom is
near". Luke 21:31.

All this goes through the minds of Israelis AFTER the Resurrection
and Rapture has occurred; for Jesus "raises up every believer and
gathers us from earth to heaven and sends the angels to complete the
gathering out of the 4 winds from all the extremities of the
heavenS"! This occurs before the HOUR of Trial that comes on all the
inhabitants on all the face of all the earth" ... the same HOUR that
comes unexpectedly for all who reject Christ. All believers, because
of the third sounding of the Last Trump, will be exempt from that
Hour and through that Hour those who "mourn and beg to escape will be
kept alive"! Rev.3:10; Luke 21:34-35; Luke 17:33; Mark 13:27;
Matt.24:31. Jesus confirms that which is coming "on all the world to
test every person" applies strictly to the Hour He appears!!!

So, my friend, Luke 21:35 is indeed the Hour Christ appears.  It
is "that day that comes unexpectedly, as a snare"! It is not just
Christ alone who comes "with snares", as you assume, but "all these
things that are about to happenS ON THAT DAY"!! That's the reason for
a Plural Subject (all these things) being used with a Singular Verb
(HAPPENS)!!!

Mel Miller at www.lastday.net

EE,

I have the feeling you wish that I would fill-in on my own question.
So: "When will Prophetic Time end"? Rev.10:6.

Three statements provide the Setting for the Last Day:

"In the days after the great tribulation". Mark 13:27.
"In the days God's Mystery was finished". Aorist Ind.
"Whenever the 7th Trumpet is about to sound". Rev.10:7.

Prophetic Time Ends within 3½ days of the 7th Trumpet. The Last day
begins when the signs of Seal 6 occur. The Last Trump of Revelation
sounds after prophetic time has "FINISHED the mystery of God". This
includes the entire 2nd half of Daniel's 70th Seven. On Day
1260, "chronos-time" will be FINISHED (no longer be subject to a
countdown). Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:6-7.

The word "finished" is #5055 and #5056, teleo or telos, meaning
a "complete end, a definite point of time". Prophetic Time Ends when
the Two Prophets "FINISH their task", within 3½ days of the Last
Trump of Revelation, when there will be "no delay" except for the
final Martyrs to be "killed who must be killed". Rev.6:9-11.

God knows on which of the final 3½ days the Last Martyr will die.
Therefore the Last Trump must sound 3 times on the Last Day at an
Hour known only to the Father!

Because "God's wrath comes at the 7th Trumpet", it will sound once to
crown Christ King and to announce God's "apponted time to judge the
dead" (Raise and gather); 2nd to meet and "Reward the saints and
prophets and all who fear God, small and great" and 3rd, "destroy all
those destroying the earth". (Retribution)! Rev.11:18.

In order for Prophetic Time to be FINISHED, armies must already be
crossing the Euphrates (6th Trumpet) and be gathering to the
Armageddon plain (6th Plague). This is

the context in which "Blessed is the one watching" as  Jesus
is "coming suddenly as a thief and none of those who dwell on all the
face of all the earth will escape" unless they are "willing to die
and keep begging for mercy". Luke 21:34-36; Luke 17:33.

The Plagues "were finished" as of Rev.15:1 but "should FINISH God's
patience" before the Temple Opens for the 7th Trumpet to sound ... on
one of 3½ days after the "Endtime is no longer" in process of being
FINISHED! God's Mystery ends in the days when the Last Trump is about
to sound and the Two Prophets FINISH their task" and in 3 days rise
up on the Last Day. Rev.10:7; 11:7.

This word FINISHED is used of the 7 Last Plagues as an Aorist
Indicative, past tense; Rev.15:1 and then, in retrospect after the
Temple opens, it appears in the Aorist Subjunctive to anticipate a
prior fulfillment during the smoke-filled Temple.

God's patience (thumos) ends before the decree: "It is Done"
(Rev.16:17) and men say: "The Day of God's and the Lamb's wrath has
come". Rev.6:17. But 40 of 100 verses must be fulfilled while the
Temple is "filled with the smoke of God's glory and power" and the
Last Plague remains suspended in the air. Rev.15:8.

The Plagues "FINISH" God's patience in allowing men to "repent"
before John sees the Great and Wonderful Sign in heaven that His
deeds were righteous. Rev.15:1,4. The Martyrs and 144,000 Jews "stand
before God to sing the songs of Moses & the Lamb". Rev.14:2-4;
Rev.15:2-4.

Daniel has the same picture. "They present the Son of Man to the
Ancient of Days and the Coronation of Christ occurs after the Court
sits in judgment on the Beast (Court of Seal 7 precedes the
Coronation of Trump 7).  "God brings the Saints with Christ (I
Thess.4:13-14) to destroy the Beast, take possession of the Kingdom
and give it to the people of the saints"! Dan.7:13-27.

The 7th Trumpet sounds after "time is no longer and God's mystery was
finished". It sounds after the 6th and 7th Seals open and while
armies of the 6th Trumpet and 6th Plague are in place for total
destruction! To count on this is to know the secret of God's mystery.

Mel

AresMan,

I agree with LadyEagle that Elijah is coming and in part with your
quote below about "once to die".
Quote:
______________________________________________________________
"I don't see why people can't think of Heb 9:27 as a general
statement of principle. Once to die means once".
______________________________________________________________

Good point! The problem comes in adapting to the fact that Elijah,
as one of the two expected witnesses, did not die. And from a
"rumor" that John might not die until Jesus is "about to come in
glory". Matt.16:27-28.

My approach to the problem is tied to the statement of Jesus that
John the Apostle might not die AND by two voices speaking in
unison that he "must prophesy again"! John 21:22; Rev.10:11.

My conviction not only stems from these two facts but also by
comparing the Two Olive trees of Zech.4:11 and Rev.11:4 where, in
each case, those who "stand before the God of the whole earth"
against the forces that would destroy the Temple of God ...
whether that of Zerubbabel's Temple ... or that of Rev.11:1-2
where John "measured the temple and the altar and the worshipers";
but left out the "outer court".

Immediately, John describes the "task of the two Witnesses to stand
before the God of earth" on behalf of the 144,000 Jews and surely
on behalf of God's People world-wide! This will become a source of
great strength and encouragement for weathering the storm of great
tribulation.

And there are still "some who will not taste death, by any means,
until they see God's Kingdom coming in Power" through TWO who may be
among those "few" WHO WILL NOT YET HAVE TASTED DEATH. Even John could
end up being one of the 12 Apostles who should die for their faith.
In that case, it would not just be a "rumor" that he might not die
until Jesus is "about to come in glory". Matt.16:27-28.

Their corpses would be among those few "who must still taste death
after they finish their task before God in the days when chronos-time
is no longer" subject to a known countdown and the "mystery of God
was finished in the days whenever the 7th Trumpet is about to sound".

It is significant to me that the Mystery of God and the Death of the
Two Prophets coincide with finishing their task with the 7th Trumpet
about to trumpet that "God's wrath has come and the appointed time"
for the Resurrection (judging the dead), Rapture (rewarding the
saints) and the Retribution (destroying the destroyers of earth").
Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:6-7; Rev.11:18.

Please note that they finish their task in anticipation of the
UNKNOWN day upon which Christ will be "crowned King" and comes with
all the Saints to take vengeance on the Beast and to deliver those
who beg for mercy from the very scene of God's wrath upon the armies
of 200 million!!

Mel

LeBuick wonders what is meant by the Synagogue in the Sky.

Jesus AND Paul used the same word to describe our "gathering unto
Jesus" but Paul used episunagoge (noun) while Jesus used episunago
(verb form). Jesus revealed the process of the "gathering together"
(verbs) will take four separate and specific actions before we meet
Jesus at the "gathering place at the Synagogue" (noun) ... the very
Presence of Jesus.

Matthew and Mark show various parts of the four-part action of the
same event "after the great tribulation AND the signs in the sun AND
moon AND stars AND the shaking of the powers of the heavens"........

ONE:

Mark says: "AND then they will see the Son of Man coming (erchomai)
in the clouds (like lightning in Matt) with great power and glory".
Matthew adds: "AND then shall appear *the sign* of the Son of Man in
heaven".

TWO:

"AND then (in Matthew; not Mark) shall all the tribes of the earth
mourn".

THREE:

The Son of Man appears, in Mark and Matthew, "AND then shall He send
His angels AND (Mark adds) He shall gather together His Elect
(apestelei AND episunaxei; verbs; third person SINGULAR action of
episunago by Jesus alone) from the 4 winds, from the uttermost part
of earth to the uttermost part of heaven (singular act by Jesus)".
This third of the four-part action occurs before Matthew reveals the
part played by Angels.

NOTE: At this point only Jesus has taken part in the four-part
action. He has "raised up all believers", both dead and living in
Christ (at the 2nd sound of the 7th trumpet), "AND caught them up to
heaven" vertically ... "from the uttermost part of earth to heaven's
uttermost part". Mark 13:27; I Thes.4:17. This is a singular action
from every place on earth to every place in heaven!!

At this 2nd sound of the Last Trump (Rev.11:15 being the first),
Angels have not yet "gathered His elect out of the 4 winds to the
gathering-together-place (episunagoges epi; assembly; noun) above
unto Jesus" as found in 2 Thess.2:1. Not Mark, but Matthew alone uses
the third person PLURAL for the action of the Angels. Only Jesus
reveals the Last Trump sounds for the Angels to complete the
gathering from all parts of the heavenS. These facts are vital for
understanding the four-part action.

The Angels are sent AND the tribes of earth continue to mourn
and "beg to escape" (Luke 21:36). The 12 Tribes of Israel AND, IMO,
the 12 Tribes of Ishmael, had already seen the Son of Man AND
had "begun to mourn at seeing the Son of Man after coming like
lightning" (erchomai; present passive participle). Then Matt.24:31
adds the 4th part played by Angels.

Matthew repeats the "AND shall send the Angels" but omits the "THEN"
because Mark reveals that Jesus had already "sent the Angels" after
His sign appears. Matthew verifies Rev.1:7 that the Tribes of earth
mourn at *The Sign* of the Son of Man AND as He sends the Angels to
gather the Elect that He has already gathered from earth to every
part of heaven.

FOUR:

"AND He shall send His Angels (3rd person singular to agree with Mark)
with a great sound of a trumpet (Matt.24:31; 3rd sound of Last
Trump). AND they shall gather His elect (episunaxousin; 3rd person
PLURAL for the first time in Matthew) out of the 4 winds from the
extremities (Plural) of the heavenS unto the extremities thereof"
(perpendicular; at right angles to the plane of the horizon around
the earth)..."unto Jesus". 2 Thes.2:1.

Mark does not mention a trumpet sound because, while he reveals that
Jesus sends the angels AND also gathers the elect from earth, the
last part of this single event occurs after the sign of the Son of
Man appears AND the tribes of earth begin to mourn. Both occur before
the trumpet sounds for the Angels to "gather the Elect out of the
same four winds unto Jesus at the Synagogue" in the Sky. 2 Thess.2:1.

Jesus gives the only description of the Rapture/Gathering together
above in which we learn the part played by the Angels at the third
sounding of the Last Trump. I Cor.15:52. [Rev.11:15; I Thess.4:16;
Matt.24:31]. With this understanding comes the UNITY for which Jesus
prayed in John 17:21-26 so that "the world might believe that the
Father sent the Son".

Mel

Ed Sutton,

Thanks for your quick response. I was expecting exactly what you
write:

Quote:

20 Then Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved
following, who also had leaned on His breast at the supper, and
said, "Lord, who is the one who betrays You?" 21 Peter, seeing him,
said to Jesus, "But Lord, what about this man?"
22 Jesus said to him, "If I will that he remain till I come, what is
that to you? You follow Me."
23 Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple
would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die,
but, "If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?"
24 This is the disciple who testifies of these things, and wrote
these things; and we know that his testimony is true. (John 21:20-24-
NKJV)

The Eastern Orthodox church notwithstanding, this is what Scripture
says here.

Amen Ed,

"The saying went out among the brethren", NOT BECAUSE IT WAS FALSE,
but by Divine Inspiration because Jesus had taught that SOME STANDING
(T)HERE MUST DIE ... after they see God's Kingdom Power having come
in power! It was John's much later revelation that actually requires
their deaths within 3 1/2 days of Christ's return in PERSON !

God providentially presents and preserves the truth; yet wonderfully
prepares us in advance to know what to expect.

The entire Book of Revelation centers on the need to be prepared to
"love not their life unto death". That fact is tied to the
fulfillment of Mark 8:38 (and Mark 9:1 which should have been Mark
8:39) and Rev.12:10-11 and Dan.12:10-11.

The glory of God is the incentive for their faithfulness. The reward
is "serving God and being led by the Lamb in the Temple of heaven for
1000 years". This faithfulness is dramatized in the texts of
Rev.3:12; Rev.7:14-17; Rev.20:4.

Mel Miller    www.lastday.net

Ed Sutton,
Quote:
______________________________________________________________

Sorry, I see some "big-time" 'leaping' here (read eisegesis) from
Jesus' statement to Peter, to "Traditionally, in the Eastern Orthodox
Churches, John never died!!", to "John the Apostle alone stands
qualified as the NT Church representative." The last two 'LINKS' are
simply not demanded or suggested, as in "NT Church representative" by
Scripture, and I recall a statement once I heard by the late S. Lewis
Johnson. "Tradition apart from Scripture, is error grown old." Well
said..
______________________________________________________________

The Two Witnesses are "Prophets". I maintain that one of them must
represent the NT Church. Jesus clearly allowed that John, Apostle and
Prophet, might live until He comes in Kingdom Power. Jesus had already
taught that "some standing (t)here" (meaning at the time He comes for
1260 days in Kingdom Power thru the two Prophets), "will by no means
taste death until they see that Power already having come" (Perfect
Participle).

Your view suggests that Jesus made a flippant statement regarding
John's future ... after revealing that Peter would actually die for
Him. John 21:18-23. Your view fails to explain when John will "reveal
the messages of the 7 thunders" which he was told to seal. Your view
gives no significance to the fact that the voice from heaven joined
the Mighty Angel in one voice requiring John to "PROPHESY again
before many nations and peoples and tongues and KINGS". Rev.10:11.

My "last two links" are only only "suggested" by Jesus who never spoke
facetiously but also fit the fact that "some standing here" could
include John while at the same time must include more than John (in
the context of the final fulfillment of the "NOW of God's Kingdom
Power" being fulfilled for 1260 days.

I see no other reason for Jesus to have suggested what the Mighty
Angel and voice from heaven REQUIRES of John ... to prophesy again by
reavealing the content of the messages of the 7 thunders which John
digested as further evidence of a future manifestation!!

Your response, my friend, offers no explanation of the prophecy of
(Mark 9:1 and Rev.10:11 and) Rev.12:10 which predicts the NOW-time
for the "AUTHORITY OF CHRIST" to be displayed by the Two Prophets for
1260 days until they also "must taste death"!

Your objection, IMO, falls flat because the tradition in the Eastern
Orthodox Churches confirms the very expectations left by LINK one,
i.e., that Jesus predicted Peter's and John's future and by LINK two,
i.e., that the Mighty Angel was sent for the purpose of confirming
the word of the Lord by revealing to John that he must prophesy
AGAIN ... even before Kings!!

I suggest this needs to be proclaimed as the most likely explanation
of Mark 9:1 which has stumped theologians for 100 years! I think the
fulfillment of Rev.12:10-14 vindicates these two "links".

Mel Miller  www.lastday.net

Ed Sutton,
You are wondering why Mark 13:27 becomes a point of controversy:
____________________________________________________________

"27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect
from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest
part of heaven." (Mark 13:27- NKJV)
____________________________________________________________

Many do not accept that Jesus will "gather the Elect (Saints) but
only that He "re-gathers the Jews to Israel ... after the great
tribulation". That has been the official teaching of the Scofield
Bible. In the 1967 edition the "note" on "re-gathering the Jews to
Israel" was moved from Matt.24:31 to Matt.24:34 to avoid the
controversy on the identity of the Elect.

Moving the "note" hopefully removed the controversial question of
whether the "gathering together above" refers to a literal "gathering
of the Elect" to heaven ... instead of "re-gathering" Jews to the
land of Israel.

My point is that Jesus sends the angels AND raises up the dead in
Christ AND gathers all the Elect, dead and alive, FROM the EARTH to
heaven (Mark 13:27) BEFORE the Angels take over and "gather all
believers from the HEAVENS (Matt.24:31) to meet Jesus at the
Synagogue" in the sky. Paul uses the noun, "gathering together
place", in 2 Thess.2:1.

Only Matt.24:31 describes the "gathering by angels from the heavenS"
and says it occurs while the tribes of earth "mourn" at seeing the
Son of Man appear. Paul agrees with Jesus that the Saints "come from
(the 3rd) heaven with Jesus" before those who survive are "caught up
to meet them in the air at His Presence ... so that ALL the saints
come with Jesus at His Presence". I Thess.4:13-17; I Thess.3:13.

The first phase of the "gathering together above" (meaning of
episunago) happens in the twinkling of an eye and BEFORE Christ
appears. Men "see the sign of the Son of Man and mourn". Matt.24:30.
Then the angels are confined to escorting the Saints from "all
extremities of the heavenS" ... NOT FROM EARTH. Matt.24:31.

Ituttut insists that Matt.24:31 and Mark 13:27 must say and mean the
same thing. Neither Mark nor Paul mentions the part played by angels
in the gathering together process. But if Jesus and Paul describe the
same gathering together to the Synagogue in the sky, the angels take
part in the Rapture in order to get those being gathered to the
meeting-place!
Again, Paul uses the noun, "gathering together place", in 2 Thess.2:1.

Ituttut parrots the Scofield view by insisting the elect refer to
Jews. That eliminates the time of the Rapture of all surviving Saints
from "after the tribulation" and from being a literal gathering "from
all extremities of the earth to heaven" by Jesus and then from "all
extremities of the heavens" by the angels.

My proof comes from the Greek use of the third person SINGULAR in
Mark 13:27 for Jesus "sending the angels as well as His gathering of
the elect". Jesus does BOTH! He alone has the power and knows whom to
raise up from the grave so that "not one will be lost on the last
day". John 6:38-40.

Ituttut refuses to accept that "episunaxei" means that HE, Jesus, will
gather the Elect as well as He will send (apostelei) the angels to
gather the same Elect OUT of the HeavenS; not TO the heavenS. "After
the great tribulation", the Elect are already in the air when the
angels complete the process. Matt.24:29.

The angels will fulfill their task while the tribes of earth watch
and mourn! In the two phases of the gathering, the Elect are taken
OUT (ek) of the 4 winds ... first by Jesus and then taken out of the
same 4 winds by the Angels! This makes the action a single,
continuous operation.

Mel

My Friends,

My view is that God's patience with those who seek to destroy His
people continues until the last "one who must be killed is killed"!

Jesus requires believers to be willing to die for Him. "Some will not
die" until the Two Prophets finish their 1260-day task. Mark 8:38; Mark 9:1.

The final generation of saints must demonstrate they "love not their
life unto death" to glorify God under great persecution. Rev.12:10-11.
This fulfills the prophecy to Daniel about "many who will be purged
or purified and refined" for 1260 of 1290 days. Dan.12:10-11.

God's anger will mix with His WRATH at the 7th Seal and 7th Trumpet.

The first scripture that reveals the mixture of these two elements of
God's character is the Cup of Wrath which occurs AFTER the 7th Vial
empties in the air. This occurs after the wicked are gathered to the
Armageddon and the last Plague empties in the air. Rev.16:19-21.

The only other scripture in Revelation that combines God's "anger and
wrath" (to fulfill Rev.14:10) sees Christ descending from heaven
to "tread the winepress in which the blood of seven classes of beings
flows to the horses' bridles over an area of 180 miles". The birds
eat their fleshes as the eyes of the wicked rot in their sockets and
their tongues rot in their mouths". God's anger and wrath fulfills
Rev.14:20; Rev.19:15-21; Zech.14:12 on the same Last Day in which
"all the Saints are gathered together above to meet Jesus at the
Synagogue" in the sky. John 6:38-40; Mark 13:27; Matt.24:31; 2
Thes.2:1; 2 Thess.1:7-10.

There are just 2 references in Revelation to the execution of God's
anger-induced-wrath. Both occur AFTER the 7 plagues "finish God's
anger" (#2372 - thumos; not wrath, orgay - #3709). Rev. 15:1. Only
then does God's anger "mix full strength in His cup of wrath".

Mel

Ron,

I am privileged to exchange views with one who has given much study
to the timing for Christ's return. I think you believe the 1260 days
of great tribulation will be cut short whereas I believe Daniel's
1290 days will be literally cut short to one of the 3½ days that
follow the deaths of the two Witnesses.

For "their task and the end of chronos-time was finished in the days
the 7th Trumpet is about to sound". Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:6-7.

IMO, the use of the aorist indicative requires the countdown to their
deaths to coincide with day #1260 and Jesus states that He will
come "in the (3½) days immediately afterward". Mark 13:24; Matt.24:29.

Is it possible for the 3rd woe to occur during these 3½ days at the
7th Trumpet? The 1260 days, as well as 1290 days, are strictly part
of Daniel's 70th Seven of 1260 plus 1290 days (43-30-day months).
If so, the extra 45 days could bring us to the Day of Hannukah for
dedication of the Millennial Temple.

I agree with you if the "cutting short of the `days' is an
interruption" of the 1290 days that belong to a 7-year solar period
(of 43 thirty-day months) ... so as to rescue believers who survive
after the last martyr "who must be killed has been killed". Rev.6:11.
Their total number should be completed within 3½ more days since
the "appointed day for God's wrath" occurs at the 7th Trumpet.

Jesus delivers believers on the day He comes to destroy those who
reject the Gospel. You quoted 2 Thess.1:9 but you omitted verse 10
which states both actions occur on the same day. That agrees with
Jesus in Luke 17:27-30. The Deliverance of believers and Destruction
of unbelievers occurs on the same appointed day!

Ron, your view requires that God's wrath occurs during the 7 last
Plagues. But during the Plagues God still allows men to "repent".
Rev.16:9-11 ... just as in the six trumpets. Rev.9:20-21. They are
still blaspheming God EVEN after the 7th Plague empties. Rev.16:21.

The reason for postponement of wrath, of course, is that the Plagues
must first "complete God's anger" (thumos; Greek) before the
7th Trumpet can announce that His wrath (orgay) "has come".

These Plagues also "complete God's anger" before all the Martyrs
stand before God and sing their victory song of Moses in Rev.15:1-4.

I see the 144,000 taken to heaven immediately after the 42-month
reign of the Beast in Rev.13 AND therefore immediately after "the
signs" of the DAY of Christ's coming occur in Seal Six!

Revelation is not written chronologically; but in logical order.
God's patience will be exhausted by the Plagues and by the wicked
continuing to blaspheme His name and by their invasion of Israel for
Armageddon before the DAY of God's wrath when Christ comes as a
thief. Rev.16:15.

It just cannot be proven that the Day of God's wrath lasts more than
one of the (3½) days after the two Prophets are killed. God executes
wrath in one day!

So I agree that "the third woe is the FINAL expression of God's
wrath" BUT not as "seen in the bowl judgments" while men are still
allowed to blaspheme His name.

Instead of including "Daniels's additional 30 days" as part of God's
wrath, I see all the wicked destroyed on the same Day Christ delivers
the Saints. The countdown to the Last Day for resurrecting all
believers ends with the 7th Trumpet which states the "appointed time
has come to destroy the wicked (Retribution) as well as to judge
(Resurrect) and reward (Rapture) the saints … with the 144,000
Jews, Firstfruit unto God and the Lamb, taken to heaven before
the "Temple of the Tabernacle of Testimony opens" for its Three-Act
Drama at Rev.15:5 (From Rev.7:9 to Rev.8:5 and Rev.11:15-19).

I agree with you that as of Armageddon:
"The abomination will be removed, for ALL IDOLS will be removed at
that time and not before". Zech. 13:2. "On that day Christ becomes
King of the entire earth". Zech.14:9; Rev.11:15-17.

Ron, only the Firstfruit of the Saints are raptured as of Rev.14:2 to
Rev.15:4. The 144,000 Jews are taken to heaven to "present the Son of
Man to the Ancient of Days". Dan.7:13. As the "Firstfruit" of the
Bride/Body of Christ" they are gathered above on the same "last day"
that all believers are raised up and gathered to the Lord.

You mention the debate on your site:

"Concerning WRATH, we have debated here whether the trumpets are
God's wrath. We are divided. I think that the DAY OF THE LORD is the
great day of their wrath".

But, Ron, can you prove the Day of the Lord's wrath is more than a
single solar Day?

And if the bowls "complete God's anger" before it "mixes with His
wrath", how can you say the bowls contain His wrath before that anger
and wrath mix ... as of Rev.16:19?

"No one can enter the Temple (to hear the announcement that God's
wrath has come) until the last plague empties in the air". Rev.15:8.
We just don't know how long it will suspend in the air on that last
day before God's "anger mixes full strength in the Cup of wrath".

May I ask how you reach the following conclusion:

"Just because the word wrath is not used directly with the trumpets,
does not mean that it is not God's wrath. The difference is CLEARLY
proclaimed by telling us bowls are the FINAL expression of wrath".

Are you sure the Plagues contain God's wrath (orgay) when that word
is not even used until the 6th Seal which opens on one of the
days "after the great tribulation"? How can the Plagues NOT be part
of the great tribulation??

The use of the word for wrath (orgay) occurs at the 7th Trumpet, the
only mention of the "appointed time for wrath" in Revelation. How
could the first six Trumpets express God's wrath?

And how could six Bowls contain His wrath prior to the text of
Rev.16:18-21 which follows the 7th Bowl and the destruction of
Babylon and coincides with the final rejoicing in Heaven?

Mel

Ron,

Like you I can't see the W&H (wounding and healing) as a reference to
a person; for the Beast does not begin to represent a PERSON until
it (the Beast as a symbol of world power; WP) has been wounded.

Therefore the W&H, IMO, affects the symbolic Beast while the Harlot
sits upon the 7 hills of world power. The Beast remains an ENTITY
before and after the W&H action represents the Beast as a PERSON.

That's why the Beast-Person is called an "8th King". He is "out of
the 7th WP as a person prior to being indwelt by the Beast from the
Abyss as the Antichrist (AC). But he is the 2nd ruler of the final WP.

In that case, the AC cannot be W&H. The Beast-ENTITY is W&H by the
Ten Kings that destroy Mystery Babylon in "one hour with fire" and
then "eat her flesh", i.e., confiscate the SYSTEM represented by the
Beast as an ENTITY. It's the same WP; but under a 2nd (8th) ruler.

So the Beast-ENTITY is personified as a Beast-PERSON at Midweek of
Daniel's 70th Seven. That is when the AC is "revealed" although we
may "guess" his identity during the first half of the Week. He
will "subdue" 3 of the 10 kings who destroy Babylon before Satan
gives him demonic-power and the 10 kings give him global "authority".

So I agree with your view that AC is not revealed until Mid-Week.

Mel Miller  www.lastday.net

Friend ituttut,

Indeed, I am "in prophecy" as you and Jesus describe and so I agree
with some of your following points ... except for the timing.
Your Quote:
____________________________________________________________________

Do you claim to be in the Body of Christ? If so how can you be down
here at the rapture? We are "up there" with Him, and not "down
here".
___________________________________________________________________
AMEN!!
None of us in the Body of Christ will be "down here" when we
are "caught up and gathered together above on the last day" by Jesus
at the 2nd and 3rd soundings of the 7th Trumpet. Mark 13:27; I
Thess.4:17; Matt.24:31. We will be "in prophecy" on the Day Christ
promised to resurrect "all believers (John 6:38-40); the day He
comes to reward every believer (Matt.16:27; Rev.22:12; Rev.11:18);
the day He comes to destroy earth's destroyers (Rev.11:18); the very
day He avenges all those beheaded by the Beast and who live again in
the first resurrection ... along with Daniel". Rev.20:4-5; Dan.7:27;
Dan.12:2,13.

Your timing is off !
Your Quote:
___________________________________________________________________
Peace cannot come to this earth until after the rapture, and
prophecy is fulfilled in the "tribulation period", and Jesus returns
to this earth as King, of whom we became One with before His return.
We are His Now, not waiting for that "kingdom that was at hand", and
is to come.
___________________________________________________________________
AMEN!!
Peace comes after the "tribulation period" when "chronos-time
(delay) is no longer and the 7th Trumpet is about to sound because
the 7 last plagues have "completed (exhausted) God's patience"
(thumos; anger). Only after the last Plague empties do the Martyrs
enter the Temple and learn that God's wrath "has come" and the
appointed time for their reward to "reign with Christ in heaven and
to serve God as Pillars in the temple of heaven for 1000 years".
Rev.3:12; Rev.7:14-17.

Of course, we are not waiting for that "kingdom that was at hand".
We are waiting for the Power and Manifestation of that Kingdom for
1260 days after which "some standing there will still taste death"
for up to 3½ days until Christ is crowned at the 7th Trumpet and He
takes the Kingdoms of this world as His own...and the Beast
persecutes the Saints no more. Mark 9:1; Rev.12:10-11; Dan.12:10-11;
Rev.11:15-17; Dan.7:14-27.

Your timing is off !!

Your Quote:
___________________________________________________________________
They (the 144,000) are of the Lamb of Prophecy, as are those in
the "tribulation", for as the Lamb He said they are the ones He came
far.
___________________________________________________________________
Does that prove they are NOT "caught up to heaven" on the last day
to fulfill the word of the Lord that "He will raise up ALL believers
on the Last Day"??? NO, OF COURSE NOT.

The 144,000 will "follow the Lamb wherever He goes". He rescues them
after the Beast of Rev.13 kills the last Martyr that he will be
allowed to kill. Rev.6:11. He takes the 144,000 to heaven on the
last day, in Rev.14; right after the 1260-day rule of the Beast ends
in Rev.13. They join these Martyrs to sing their song of the Lamb in
Rev.15:1-4 and Dan.7:13 and "present the Son of Man to the Ancient
of Days seated on a sea/river of fire" moments before the Temple
opens in heaven at Rev.15:5 and Rev.7:9 to 8:5 and Rev.11:15-19
where the "temple was open"!!!.

"No one enters the Temple until the last (7th) Plague empties in the
air" and the smoke of God's glory and power clears the Temple.
Rev.15:8. The Day has come (after the last Plague empties and after
the last one dies who must "taste death" to be purified and refined;
Mark 9:1; Rev.12:10-11; Dan.12:10-11). He comes to avenge these
Martyrs when He raises them up in the "first resurrection".
Rev.11:18; Rev.20:4-5.

Your timing is off by 3½ years; actually by seven years !!!
Your Quote:
___________________________________________________________________
Yes, those under the Law of Moses, and the Prophets will sing that
victory song.
___________________________________________________________________
You overlook the fact that not only the Prophets but "all the
Saints, both small and great and all those who fear God", will
be "judged and rewarded" as of the 7th Trumpet ... after the Martyrs
and Firstfruit sing their songs in Rev.15. For only then was
the "Temple open" after the Last Plague empties and the smoke of
God's glory and power clears the Temple". Rev.11:18-19.
The "firstfruit" demonstrate that the rest of the Elect who survive
to the End are about to be rescued as well.

Those who "overcome to the END will reign with Christ on earth"
while the Martyrs will "serve God as Pillars in heaven's Temple for
1000 years". Rev.3:12; Rev.7:15-17; Rev.20:4-5.

After the 7th Trumpet sounds and while "the temple was open, the Ark
of the Covenant was seen" as the symbol of God's immediate
Rescue/Resurrection of all who are members of the Body and Bride of
the Lamb. Rev.11:19.

Timing is Off at 7th Trumpet Resurrection, Rewards and Retribution!

Your Quotes:
___________________________________________________________________
Aren't you off on your time frame? Doesn't Amos 8:9 point to the
Cross? It was dark from noon until 3P.M. ... Verse 17 disallows what
you say. "…which art, and wast, and art to come …" The vials are yet
to come. Your theory just cannot hold up.
___________________________________________________________________
The later manuscripts do not include "and art to come". God will
have already begun to reign as stated in the 7th Trumpet as well as
Rev.19:6!!!

It is not the Vials that are "yet to come"; for as of the last day
they had already "completed God's anger and demonstrated His deeds
are holy and just". Rev.15:1,4. The armies gather to Armageddon
before the Temple Opens; but are destroyed after the Plagues
demonstrate that the wicked refuse to repent!!

The context of Amos 8 and 9 is the Day of the Lord at the "End of
Days". The sun turned dark at noon at the crucifixion to show God's
judgment on His Son; but Amos involves judgment on "all the sinners
who will die" when Israel is restored. It is PROPHECY regarding the
last day!!!

You have painted yourself into a corner of non-prophetic theories
regarding "all the saints" who will come with Jesus, including the
great tribulation martyrs and every one delivered from great
tribulation "on that DAY", according to I Thess.3:13 and I Thess.
4:13-14 and 2 Thess.1:7-10.

Not only your Timing, but the exclusionary theory of a partial
rapture of pre-trib saints is your fallacy!! Here I apply your own
quotations:
__________________________________________________________________
"You make the mistake of not making distinction between the Body of
Christ Church and the Kingdom Church ... The one in the Body of
Christ would be taken, and one would be left to go into `tribulation
period'. In the tribulation is the `day of the Lord' and `thus shall
it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed'".
__________________________________________________________________
Neither Daniel, Jesus, Paul nor Revelation makes a distinction
between pre-trib saints and "all the saints" who will be resurrected
and rewarded at Christ's second coming. Daniel states the "saints"
will come with the Son of Man to destroy the Beast after the Court
sits in Seal 7 and Dan.7:22-27.

The Lamb will "come with the called, elect and faithful to destroy
the armies of the ten kings gathered to make war against Him".
Rev.17:14. "All the saints will come with Jesus on the day He
destroys the wicked"; not just pre-trib saints! I Thess 3:13; I
Thess.4:13-14; 2 Thess.1:7-10; Luke 17:27-30.

My dear friend, what have you done?? You have lifted the words of
Jesus out of their second coming context and applied them to a
partial "pre-trib" rapture by stating above that "the one in the
Body of Christ would be taken and one left to go into the great
tribulation"! You cannot apply the one taken and one left to both a
pre-trib partial rapture as well as to those taken or left on the
Day Christ appears!!!!!

Jesus clearly teaches that the "one taken and one left" applies ONLY
to the Day of "Apocalypse" on which He comes to destroy all the
wicked. Luke 17:27-30. "ON THAT DAY", all who are willing to die
will be "KEPT ALIVE". Luke 17:33.

I see nothing in your view to conform to the timing of Paul's
teaching, let alone that of Jesus with "all these things that
happens on one of the days after the great tribulation"! Mark 13:24-
27,30. Verse 30 lumps all these things together on the same day by
using a singular verb (happens) with a plural noun (all things)!!!

You interpret the "comfort" of I Thess.4:18 as a promise of being
"kept from the great tribulation". That alone contradicts the prayer
of Jesus that we should not be "taken out of the world" but should
be kept from evil. John 17:15.

Mel at http://lastday.net

Mel,

In your eschatological framework how do you view the 7 seals of
Revelation?  I have heard a myriad of sequential timelines and am
just curious as to yours......I know some view them covering the
whole tribulation, some just the great tribulation, others just a
short sequence of time followed by the trumpets and vials......

Furthermore, do you feel the trumpets and vials occur at the same
time or are they sequential?

Response,

The 6th and 7th Seals are fulfilled on one of the days "after the
great tribulation". Rev.6:12 to 8:5. The Last Plague empties in
the air immediately before the Lamb opens Seal Six on the Lastday.

This is supported by comparing the signs and warnings of Seal Six
with Matt.24:27-41 and Luke 17:24-37 and Rev.19:15-21 where Christ
comes to destroy the wicked only at the time when all the birds are
summoned to the "great supper of God". The mention of the gathering
of eagles occurs in each of these texts.

At the time prior to the Feast of Tabernacles each year (First two
weeks of Tishri) the Israeli Government estimates that 35 species of
(500 Million) birds fly over the narrow corridor of Israel. This
includes pelicans, stork, cranes and three kinds of eagles. On Oct.8
of 2005, 30,000 birds flew over Jerusalem on their way to wintering
grounds in Africa. Over one hundred birds have radio transmitters
attached to them so as to track their flights.

Tishri 15 (which is always within one or two days of the full moon
in September or October and is required for Seal 6 to be fulfilled;
Rev.6:12; NASB), fixes the time of year for the "Ingathering of the
Harvest" at the same time as the Armageddon slaughter when Jesus
promises to "come as a thief" and fulfill Zech.14:16 at the Feast of
Tabernacles. Zechariah 14:9 puts this Feast on the Day Christ
becomes "King of the entire earth" (at 7th Trumpet; Rev.11:15-17;
Dan.7:14). Jesus promises to come as a thief on that day. Rev.16:15.

This agrees with Jesus that "no one can know the exact Day or Hour"
in advance of having seen the signs of Seal Six nor in advance of
the Sign of His appearance. The warnings of Seal Six continue during
the Tribunal of Seal Seven!!

During the calamities of Seal Six, the 7th Seal will open for the
Tribunal in heaven and then the 7th Trumpet will sound for the 7th
Plague to implode with the consequences of God's anger and wrath.
Rev.16:18-21. This means Seals 6 and 7 occur between the 6th
and 7th Trumpets ... while the 7th Plague suspends in the air!

It all happens at heaven's only proclamation that "God's wrath has
come and the appointed (kairos) time to:

I. "Judge the dead" (in Christ which requires the Resurrection of
all believers)

II. "Reward the prophets and saints and all who fear God, from the
least to the greatest" (requiring the gathering of all the saints)

III. Execute Retribution by "destroying earth's destroyers" gathered
to Armageddon on that same day. The birds will be "gathered at the
same time for the supper of God Almighty". Rev.11:18; Rev.19:15-21.

That's why I believe the Day of Wrath is no more than a 12-Hour
Solar Day when "God brings the souls of the dead in Christ with Him"
in order to fulfill the above on the same day the "sun turns dark at
NOON and the light returns at twilight". Amos 8:9; Zech.14:6-7.

Mel at http://lastday.net

Grasshopper,

You want to start with Rev.1:1 for the
context of the Lastday's order of events.

We should start at the "End" and work
backward from the context which brings us
the voice from the Temple in heaven:
"It is Done". Rev.16:17.

We find the first thing that "Has Come
on the Day of Wrath". Rev.6:17.

Interpreted: "The Last Day has begun" as
the armies are gathered to Armageddon, the
7th Plague empties in the air and the
Lamb immediately opens Seal Six to begin
the events of the Day of Wrath"!

Number One: "The Day of Wrath HAS COME".
Rev.6:12-17 immediately follows Rev.16:12-17.

The armies to be destroyed as of the 7th Trumpet
and 7th Plague have already been gathered to
Armageddon. But the 7th Trumpet has not yet
trumpeted that the "appointed time for His wrath
Has Come". The Tribunal of Seal 7 occurs first.

Plague 7 empties in the air and suspends there
for the Tribunal of Seal 7 and then for the 7th
(Last) Trumpet to announce that His Wrath
"has come". Rev.11:18.

While the 7th Plague reveals God's patience has
been exhausted, it remains suspended until the
Tribunal of Seal 7 renders its Verdict.

The warnings of Seal Six continue until the blast
of the 7th Trumpet proclaims "God's wrath has come"
and also the time for resurrection of the dead in
Christ and the rewards to the Saints. Rev.11:18.

Mel Miller

OldRegular,

On Jan.12, your response to my post on the
Order of Pre-Endtime, Endtime and Lastday
Events, was as follows:
______________________________________________
"Does your First Resurrection occur before the Great Tribulation or
after Great Tribulation"?
______________________________________________

Finally, you state, as of yesterday, that you
have nothing more to say on this subject since
you totally disagree with my answer to your
question on Christ's reign OVER both earth and
IN heaven during the 1000 years the Martyrs
"serve God and reign with Christ"! Rev.7:15; 20:4.
_______________________________________________

The Scriptures, of course, speak for themselves.

But NOW, as the first responder to my post on
the much more limited Order of Events beginning with the opening of
Seal Six on the LASTDAY, your total response was:
"???????????????????????????????????????????"
_______________________________________________

Does that mean you have no idea of what occurs
after the first reference in Revelation to what "HAS COME" when
God's voice "comes out of the temple, from the throne, stating:

"IT IS DONE"!! ?????????????

Mel Miller

Here is what you responded to with nothing but question marks:

3/28/06
Friends,

I propose the indictment and verdict of the Middle Path's Tribunal,
Act Two of the Temple Drama, Seal 7, occurs between the Holocaust
of Trump #6 and triumphant Coronation of Christ in Trump #7!

While I am inserting this paragraph at my website on March 28 of
2006, I also wrote in March of 2003, in Meditation #39 that Seals
6 and 7 occur between the 6th and 7th Trumpets.

My actual words were: "The armies of Plagues 6 and 7 cross the
Euphrates River before Seals 6 and 7 open and all four of these
events occur between the 6th and 7th Trumpets"!

If this order maintains through our discussion,
there can be no Resurrection and Rapture of ALL the Saints until
the Beast's armies gather to Armageddon and the 7th Trumpet sounds
that:

1) "God's wrath has come" and
2) It's the "appointed time to judge the dead in Christ and to
reward the prophets and saints and all who fear God, both small
and great, and to destroy the destroyers of earth". Rev.11:18.

The only conclusion we can make is that the
Coronation of Christ, the First Resurrection of Rev.20:4-5 and
His "gathering of of all the
Elect from earth to heaven" occur on the Day
He comes to destroy the wicked at Armageddon.

On that Day Christ will be King over all the
nations; but He will reign in heaven as well
as over the earth while the Martyrs "serve God in heaven and reign
with Christ in heaven for 1000 years". Rev.20:4-5; Rev.7:14-17.

The Martyrs receive the highest possible reward
given to the Church. They will have three
names, including the name of the New Jerusalem
for 1000 years before the Holy City comes down
upon or over the New Earth. Rev.3:12.

The Lamb will lead the Martyrs into fountains
of living waters in the Temple (Rev.7:17) until
the Temple no longer exists. The voice out of the
Temple, as of Rev.16:17, proclaims "IT IS DONE" on the Lastday.

One thousand years later the voice coming out of heaven, not
from the Temple, but from the New Jerusalem over the earth,
proclaims: "All things are Done". Rev.21:3-6. For there was no
longer a temple in the New Jerusalem. Rev.21:22.

Mel Miller

Friends,

I propose the indictment and verdict of the Middle Path's Tribunal,
Act Two of the Temple Drama, Seal 7, occurs between the Holocaust of
Trump #6 and triumphant Coronation of Christ in Trump #7!

While I am inserting this paragraph at my website on March 28 of
2006, I also wrote in March of 2003, in Meditation #39 that Seals 6
and 7 occur between the 6th and 7th Trumpets.

My actual words were: "The armies of Plagues 6 and 7 cross the
Euphrates River before Seals 6 and 7 open and all four of these
events occur between the 6th and 7th Trumpets"!

If this order maintains through your own studies, there can be no
Resurrection and Rapture of ALL the Saints until the Beast's armies
gather to Armageddon and the 7th Trumpet sounds that:

1) "God's wrath has come" and
2) It's the "appointed time to judge the dead in Christ and to
reward the prophets and saints and all who fear God, both small and
great, and to destroy the destroyers of earth". Rev.11:18.

The only conclusion we can make is that the
Coronation of Christ, the First Resurrection of Rev.20:4-5 and
His "gathering of of all the
Elect from earth to heaven" occur on the Day
He comes to destroy the wicked at Armageddon.

On that Day Christ will be King over all the
nations; but He will reign in heaven as well
as over the earth while the Martyrs "serve God in heaven and reign
with Christ in heaven for 1000 years". Rev.20:4-5; Rev.7:14-17.

The Martyrs receive the highest possible reward
given to the Church. They will have three
names, including the name of the New Jerusalem
for 1000 years before the Holy City comes down
upon or over the New Earth. Rev.3:12.

The Lamb will lead the Martyrs into fountains
of living waters in the Temple (Rev.7:17) until the Temple no longer
exists. The voice out of the Temple, as of Rev.16:17, proclaims "It
is Done" on the Lastday.

One thousand years later the voice coming out of heaven, not from
the Temple, but from the New Jerusalem over the earth,
proclaims: "All things are Done". Rev.21:3-6. For there was no
longer a temple in the New Jerusalem. Rev.21:22.

Mel Miller  www.lastday.net

Michael,

Your following expression challenges me to continue searching the
Scriptures to find their eternal riches. The search by itself is
very rewarding.

Bob and Gary are working long hours for the same company; but no longer
"directly" with Cox Cable.

Christine works as the Maintenance Technician for an apartment complex;
including repair of refrigeration units. Selina is happily married to a preacher
in a Pentecostal Church. Gary and Lauren and their two sweet girls live with us;
the younger one just began to walk. The older one thinks, talks and acts like a
four-year old instead of a two-year old.   Mel


Mel,

   Thank you for keeping me on your mailing list.  I do not have much access to a
computer these days to correspond much.  I print your e-mails and study them
while I am on the road.  I cannot thank you enough for the understanding your
thoughts and words have made apparent to me.  God bless you Mel for all your
dedication and wonderful works.  Give my love to Bob, Christine, Gary, and
Selina when you see them next.  I still love and miss you all every day.  Have a
wonderful day in the Lord.

Michael


>From: "lastday23454" <lastday1@...>
>Reply-To: lastday@yahoogroups.com
>To: lastday@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [lastday] Monthly Updates
>Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 19:12:51 -0000
>
>Friends,
>
>For any who are interested in reading or copying any part of my
>monthly postings which are published in Senior Experience at
>First Baptist of Norfolk, VA, please click on UPDATES at
>www.lastday.net. For the past two months I have not posted them
>to this site.
>
>Mel

Friends,

Those who are interested in the posting of "Act Two" in Senior
Experience, First Baptist Church of Norfolk, VA., please go to
www.lastday.net and click on UPDATES in the left hand column.

Mel Miller

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "lastday23454" <lastday1@...>

> Friends,
>
> For any who are interested in reading or copying any part of my
> monthly postings which are published in Senior Experience at
> First Baptist of Norfolk, VA, please click on UPDATES at
> www.lastday.net. For the past two months I have not posted them
> to this site.
>
> Mel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Believers' unity requires that Day be a single day.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lastday/
>
> <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> lastday-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

Friends,

For any who are interested in reading or copying any part of my
monthly postings which are published in Senior Experience at
First Baptist of Norfolk, VA, please click on UPDATES at
www.lastday.net. For the past two months I have not posted them
to this site.

Mel