> They may not have invented space travel themselves. A race (maybe the
> Tnuctipun themselves?) may have landed on the Thrintun home world, and been
> taken over by the Power.

IIRC this is exactly what happened. A space-going race fell into the clutches
of the Slavers accidentally. It MAY have been the Tnuctipun, but frankly just
who it was is irrelevant.

Another species we know and love conquered space the same way. The barbaric
Kzinti were found by the peaceful Jotoki and brought into space to be employed
as mercenaries. Instead they wound up taking over and enslaving the Jotoki.

In "The Warriors" the crew of the Angel's Pencil (and indead all of humanity)
believes that no race can conquer space if it is warlike. The Kzin and Thrints
sidestepped this rule. The Pak, with longevity and the Library as a substitute
for peace, also found a way around this. But could it still be a viable theory?

I like your hypothesis on how the Tnuctipun came under slaver domination.
It is in keeping with precedent set by LN.  The Kzinti dominated the
hapless Jotoki who were unfortunate enough to land on Kzin. The Kzinti then
went on to make slaves of the Jotoki...

If enough Thrintun were present on the Tnuctip homeworld, they would
*eventually* be able to take it over.  They would have initiated a civil
war amongst the free and enslaved population. I don't think it would have
been a rapid process, however, and there would have been plenty of time for
*thousands* of Tnuctipun to flee their world.  This supports my position
that there was a free Tnuctip fighting force giving constant oppostion to
the slavers.


Herman Bozeman
hbozeman@...
www.i2020.net/~bozeman

----------
> From: Steve Sloan <sloan@...>
> To: Multiple recipients of list <larryniven-l@...>
> Subject: Re: Stasis fields PLUS Slaver stupidity
> Date: Tuesday, November 26, 1996 2:26 PM
>
> >We had some big debates on this issue earlier this year.   I personally
> >believe that Power stunted the intellectual growth of the Slavers
because
> >once they became intelligent enough to use Power their intelligence had
no
> >Darwinian pressure to evolve further, but I do not think they were
> >inordinately stupid or they would have become a space traveling race, or
> >been able to rule an Empire as large as theirs was.
>
> They may not have invented space travel themselves. A race (maybe the
> Tnuctipun themselves?) may have landed on the Thrintun home world, and
been
> taken over by the Power. They could then take the Slavers back to their
world,
> and that world could be taken over by enough Thrintun...
> _____________________________________________________________________
> Steve Sloan                        E-mail: sloan@...
> Senior in Computer Science at the University of Alabama in Huntsville
> Check out Kithrup.JPG on MY NEW WEB SITE (I'm so excited):
>     http://www.cs.uah.edu/cs/students/ssloan/

At 02:26 PM 11/26/96 -0500, you wrote:

Carol,

The Ringworld Engineers, but I can't my copy to quote appx. page.  Was near
the beginning, as I remember, when the Hindmost and crew were getting to
know each other (???).

------------------------------------
Frank W. Moore
Auctoritas Software
Voice: (916) 726-2025
E-Mail: fmoore@...
Internet: http://www.auctoritas.com

Just to pick a portion of your commentary and reply to it...

Xanol (sp), the slaver in question may well have been a complete moron.
However, I don't think Xanol's stupidity was a fluke.  I believe LN
portrays the slavers as a race who long ago lost the need for anything but
the fufillment of personal desires.  The Tnuctipun were their engineers and
kept the wheels of empire turning for the slavers.  Intelligence in a
slaver was no longer, if it ever was, a trait necessary for survival.  LN's
stories have a constant evolutionary undercurrent to them.  It is obvious
to me that evolution  had no use for the slavers and weeded them out.  If
it weren't for "the power", the slavers would not have posed even the
slightest threat to the Tnuctipun.



Herman Bozeman
hbozeman@...
www.i2020.net/~bozeman

----------
> From: Wayne Haley <W.M.Haley@...>
> To: Multiple recipients of list <larryniven-l@...>
> Subject: Stasis fields
> Date: Tuesday, November 26, 1996 10:53 AM
>
>  I'm sorry if this idea has already come up in discussion, but I
> was sitting in my relativity lecture this morning, daydreaming as usual,
> and I was just wondering about the properties of stasis fields. It has
> already been stated by Larry that they are invulnererable to antimatter.
> I cannot remember where he said that, maybe in the spoiler in the back of
> "Tales of Known Space."  Also, it was suggested that they were
> invulnerable to just about anything.  This being the case, and drawing on
> modern theories of cosmology(on which I am reluctantly becoming expert .

At 07:33 PM 11/24/96 -0500, fmoore@... wrote:
>>"she impaled herself on him" has got to be the five worst.... I don't
>>see how anyone could miss the violence inherent in this metaphor.
>>
>Carol, men AND women use all sort of language, metaphors, allegories, etc.
>...That is why there has been such a revolt lately against so called
>political correctness.

This has nothing to do with political correctness, but bad taste in an ugly
metaphor.  When Shakespeare said "If hair be wires, then black wires grow on
her head" he wasn't trying to say that this was a beautiful metaphor, but a
silly and rather ugly one, and this opinion is attested by the ending "and
yet I think my love as rare, as any belied by false compare."

Let us say that the lovemaking by Tella and Louis was belied by false compare.

> My image of the passage was the Louis was a passage (sic) object in the
>intercourse....

I don't feel that my partners have been passive in that position, but your
experience and LNs may be different.

>I invite your alternate description that would give the
>same imagery Niven was trying to convey that avoids the word.

Easy:
She mounted him and rode him.
She stradled his hips and took him inside herself.
She knelt astride him and lowered herself onto him.
She sat down on his hips, and took him home.
He lay down looking up at her, and felt a warm glow around his manhood.
She lowered herself onto him...
         ...impatiently, longing to feel him inside her.
         ...slowly, savoring the feel of each him sliding in.

and then there is
She got on top.
Life, Health, Strength to you, Carol                        Redflame@...

               1914 Wavecrest Lane; Houston, Texas; 77062; USA
            * * *  "If your God is dead, try one of mine."  * * *

At 03:29 AM 11/26/96 -0500, you wrote:
         I thought I'd provide a final solution to the "fuck" question (I
love the high intellectual tone of this list!), so I got out the
departmental OED (Oxford English Dictionary--based on historical principles)
and looked it up.  I found out my mother was right.  When I asked her what
"fuck" meant, she said "There's no such word."  And as far as the OED is
concerned, there isn't!  I was shocked!  What kind of dictionary is that!
But it's a 1933 edition, reprinted in 196l, and there's a newer edition out.
I'll check it next time I'm in the library and see if OED has acknowledged
human intercourse.
                                 Carrol Fry

At 01:58 PM 11/25/96 -0500, fmoore@... wrote:
>At 08:09 PM 11/24/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>I seem to remember somewhere, not in any of the Ringworld books, something
>>about how puppetters reproduce, and it was the first time I remember reading
>>that about how it actually works.  I can't remember where it was, and I want
>>to re-read that section.
>>
>>Anyone have any ideas?
>>
>There are two types of 'male' puppeteers, one a egg layer, the other a
>sperm producer,....

Thanks for reminding all of us about this Frank.  But what I really want is
the reference, not the description.  I want to read it.

Life, Health, Strength to you, Carol                        Redflame@...

               1914 Wavecrest Lane; Houston, Texas; 77062; USA
            * * *  "If your God is dead, try one of mine."  * * *

>We had some big debates on this issue earlier this year.   I personally
>believe that Power stunted the intellectual growth of the Slavers because
>once they became intelligent enough to use Power their intelligence had no
>Darwinian pressure to evolve further, but I do not think they were
>inordinately stupid or they would have become a space traveling race, or
>been able to rule an Empire as large as theirs was.

They may not have invented space travel themselves. A race (maybe the
Tnuctipun themselves?) may have landed on the Thrintun home world, and been
taken over by the Power. They could then take the Slavers back to their world,
and that world could be taken over by enough Thrintun...
_____________________________________________________________________
Steve Sloan                        E-mail: sloan@...
Senior in Computer Science at the University of Alabama in Huntsville
Check out Kithrup.JPG on MY NEW WEB SITE (I'm so excited):
     http://www.cs.uah.edu/cs/students/ssloan/

Zack, are you on line?  I've tried to E-Mail you, but apparently I
got your address wrong.  I have an address for you if you'll contact me.
         Sorry to put this on the list.
                                         Carrol Fry 0100135@...

At 10:53 AM 11/26/96 -0500, you wrote:
> I'm sorry if this idea has already come up in discussion, but I
>was sitting in my relativity lecture this morning, daydreaming as usual,
>and I was just wondering about the properties of stasis fields. It has
>already been stated by Larry that they are invulnererable to antimatter.
>I cannot remember where he said that, maybe in the spoiler in the back of
>"Tales of Known Space."  Also, it was suggested that they were
>invulnerable to just about anything.  This being the case, and drawing on
>modern theories of cosmology(on which I am reluctantly becoming expert . .
>.), could a stasis field survive a "Big Crunch" event?
>If not, why not?

What a statis 'field' actually is is not made clear.  It seems to be a sort
of utterly perfect bubble where the surface is a event horizon (analogies
to blank holes are inviting) and anything on the inside is outside our
space/time continuum- time is utterly frozen there.  All time of matter
that would run into the 'surface' runs into the borders of our space time
continuum and just bounds back.  The surface itself is not matter or
ant-matter, hence no interactions.

As to being crunched or surviving, good question.  Since the Big Crunch is
supposed to pull down the space/time continuum itself, I will opt to say
that the statis bubble would burst under the field nulling crunch.  No one
gets out of here alive.

> Why couldn't they be sort of cosmological equivalents to the "Time
>Capsules" occasionally buried in buildings?

They are.

> After all, the evidence given us which does not originate directly from
>stasis fields is purely circumstancial; and something like the slaver
>power and high quantum numbers of hyperdrive appears to be a recipe for
>possible Universal domination to me.  The Tnuctip would have to be even
>more cunning and insidious than portrayed.

Slaver Power had limits, too.  Slavers, even the morons, would have been
reluctant to allow follow Slavers to develop Power that could be used on
each other.

> But, if this were the case, surely the Slavers would have evolved to be
>*far* more intelligent than shown?

Intelligence is favored as a Darwinian survival tool in humans. If we ever
blow ourselves back past the Stone Age, who knows if it will be favored again.

> Or maybe they were, and the human luck which is a thread throughout
>Known Space means the one they released from stasis in Sol System was the
>Slaver equivalent of a complete moron? A prodigal son or something?
>Of course, it is useless to speculate on slaver sociology, apart from what
>we are specifically told, *because* they are so alien to us. However, it's
>fun to try, right?

We had some big debates on this issue earlier this year.   I personally
believe that Power stunted the intellectual growth of the Slavers because
once they became intelligent enough to use Power their intelligence had no
Darwinian pressure to evolve further, but I do not think they were
inordinately stupid or they would have become a space traveling race, or
been able to rule an Empire as large as theirs was.  But,  on the average,
they were probably not as intelligent as humans, who are in turn by far the
intellectual inferiors of the Tnuctipan, the former slave and arch-enemies
of the Slavers.

------------------------------------
Frank W. Moore
Auctoritas Software
Voice: (916) 726-2025
E-Mail: fmoore@...
Internet: http://www.auctoritas.com

In a message dated 96-11-26 03:31:20 EST, you write:

<< I've finished my Known Space Gallery, at
  http://www.cs.uah.edu/cs/students/ssloan/sf_pages/ks_pictures.html >>

I checked it out.
Nice selection, good image quality. I like it.
Keep it up!

SAL

I'm sorry if this idea has already come up in discussion, but I
was sitting in my relativity lecture this morning, daydreaming as usual,
and I was just wondering about the properties of stasis fields. It has
already been stated by Larry that they are invulnererable to antimatter.
I cannot remember where he said that, maybe in the spoiler in the back of
"Tales of Known Space."  Also, it was suggested that they were
invulnerable to just about anything.  This being the case, and drawing on
modern theories of cosmology(on which I am reluctantly becoming expert . .
.), could a stasis field survive a "Big Crunch" event?
If not, why not?
	 If so, what is to say that they are from *this* cycle of the Universe at
all?
	 Why couldn't they be sort of cosmological equivalents to the "Time
Capsules" occasionally buried in buildings?
	 After all, the evidence given us which does not originate directly from
stasis fields is purely circumstancial; and something like the slaver
power and high quantum numbers of hyperdrive appears to be a recipe for
possible Universal domination to me.  The Tnuctip would have to be even
more cunning and insidious than portrayed.
	 But, if this were the case, surely the Slavers would have evolved to be
*far* more intelligent than shown?
	 Or maybe they were, and the human luck which is a thread throughout
Known Space means the one they released from stasis in Sol System was the
Slaver equivalent of a complete moron? A prodigal son or something?
Of course, it is useless to speculate on slaver sociology, apart from what
we are specifically told, *because* they are so alien to us. However, it's
fun to try, right?
Any thoughts?
	      Wayne.

--
            ************************************************
            *                                              *
            *              From: Wayne Haley               *
            *         a.k.a."Kethas epetai-Khemara"        *
            * 2nd Year B.Sc. (Hons) Comp. & Phys. student, *
            *         Brighton University, England.        *
            *          < wmh1@... >          *
            * Homepage:http://www.comp.it.bton.ac.uk/~wmh1 *
            *----------------------------------------------*
            *        "Malt does more than Milton can,      *
            *         to justify Gods ways to man."        *
            *                                              *
            *        -A.E. Housman                         *
            ************************************************

Stolen from the alt.usage.english FAQ:

    "Fuck" does NOT stand for "for unlawful carnal knowledge" or
"fornication under consent of the king".  It is not an acronym for
anything at all.

    It is a very old word, recorded in English since the 15th
century (few acronyms predate the 20th century), with cognates
in other Germanic languages.  The Random House Historical
Dictionary of American Slang (Random House, 1994, ISBN
0-394-54427-7) cites Middle Dutch _fokken_ = "to thrust, copulate
with"; Norwegian dialect _fukka_ = "to copulate"; and Swedish
dialect _focka_ = "to strike, push, copulate" and _fock_ = "penis".
Although German _ficken_ may enter the picture somehow, it is
problematic in having e-grade, or umlaut, where all the others have
o-grade or zero-grade of the vowel.

    AHD1, following Pokorny, derived "feud", "fey", "fickle", "foe",
and "fuck" from an Indo-European root _*peig2_ = "hostile"; but
AHD2 and AHD3 have dropped this connection for "fuck" and give no
pre-Germanic etymon for it.  Eric Partridge, in the 7th edition of
_Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English_ (Macmillan, 1970),
said that "fuck" "almost certainly" comes from the Indo-European
root _*peuk-_ = "to prick" (which is the source of the English words
"compunction", "expunge", "impugn", "poignant", "point", "pounce",
"pugilist", "punctuate", "puncture", "pungent", and "pygmy").
Robert Claiborne, in _The Roots of English: A Reader's Handbook of
Word Origin_ (Times, 1989) agrees that this is "probably" the
etymon.  Problems with such theories include a distribution that
suggests a North-Sea Germanic areal form rather than an inherited
one; the murkiness of the phonetic relations; and the fact that no
alleged cognate outside Germanic has sexual connotations.

Matthew `GrendelFish' Dockrey            MidgardMOO:
gfish@...                   midgard.solgate.com 1359
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~gfish     Finger for Geek Code

Hi there,
              I new to this list, and so if this has already been posted I
apologise in advance.

>Recently someone suggested that the word 'fuck' originally meant to hit,
>and as slang suggested violence sex with an unwilling partner.

I believe that the word in question originated in England in the 1800's, and
became common after it was used as a contraction from a Police report of men
who raped women, and so were put in jail "For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge".

And that's as polite as I can make it!

Em tasol, wantok,
                         Bill S.

-~^~-~^~-~^~-~^~-~^~-~^~-~^~-~^~-~^~-~^~-~^~-
      "It must be true, 'cause I saw it on TV!"
                 Dum volvo, video disco
Another pothole in the Information Superhighway

At , you wrote:
>At 02:41 PM 11/25/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>>In general puppeteers are such sheep I wonder if the odd puppeteer Hitler
>>>or Stalan appeared on occasion.
>>
>>I thought the Hindmost *was* a "puppeteer Hitler or Stalin", although not
>>*quite* as evil. The form of insanity that allowed him to travel in space
>>was megalomania.

My thought were more on the past history of the Puppeteers, of which we
know little.  I mean a REAL evil character, the kind that murders millions.

------------------------------------
Frank W. Moore
Auctoritas Software
Voice: (916) 726-2025
E-Mail: fmoore@...
Internet: http://www.auctoritas.com

I've finished my Known Space Gallery, at

     http://www.cs.uah.edu/cs/students/ssloan/sf_pages/ks_pictures.html

Tell me what you think.
_____________________________________________________________________
Steve Sloan                        E-mail: sloan@...
Senior in Computer Science at the University of Alabama in Huntsville
Check out Kithrup.JPG on MY NEW WEB SITE (I'm so excited):
     http://www.cs.uah.edu/cs/students/ssloan/

Frank Moore wrote (replying to Carroll Fry)

>>Frank suggests that Louis Wu was a passive (actually he said "Passage,"
>>but I think he meant "Passive") participant while Teela "impaled herself" on\
>>him.  Now really, Frank.  How passive could he have been if she got herself
>>impaled?  :]
>>
>Experience teaches that if your partner is impaling herself on you, it does
>to pay for you to move about too much.  There is impaled, and there is
>IMPALED (ouch!).  %-)

Do you mean "it does *not* pay"? There are typos and there are TYPOS (?????):-|

Reminds me of a bit in "New Scientist" which was reporting a misprint in an
Australian newspaper. In an article on the (under construction) Large Hadron
Collider, they had a photo and the caption "Large Hardon Collider". Ouch
indeed!!

Hmmm. I just realised that I promised a serious post next time and this is
next time. Well, I agree with Frank rather than Carrol. I think that what
Carrol is trying to say delicately is that for Teela to impale herself,
Louis has got to have an erection and that's hardly (no pun intended)
passive. Well, I think you can have an erection and still take a passive
role in sexual intercourse, and if Teela was on top, Louis could well be
assuming the passive role for reasons that Frank hints at.

Btw I'll never forget the image of Nessus galloping past them and saying
something like "no known species copulates as often as you do".


   ___________________________________________________________________________
   |Ted Scribner      | "Twinkle twinkle little star"                        |
   |NSW Fisheries     |                  - Jane Taylor                       |
   |P.O. Box 21       | "Bright star, were I as steadfast as thou art"       |
   |Cronulla NSW 2230 |                  - John Keats                        |
   |Australia_________|_________All in your point of view, I suppose.________|

Steve sloan wrote:

>Why do I hear Sam Cook in my mind when I read this?
>
>"Rishin', rishin', everybody's feelin' great...
>Rishin', rishin', rishin' the night away..."

I was thinking of Walt Disney:

When you rish upon a star
Makes no difference who you are [= what species]
Anything your heart desires will come to you

'Course it'd be a bit hot :-)

   ___________________________________________________________________________
   |Ted Scribner      | "Twinkle twinkle little star"                        |
   |NSW Fisheries     |                  - Jane Taylor                       |
   |P.O. Box 21       | "Bright star, were I as steadfast as thou art"       |
   |Cronulla NSW 2230 |                  - John Keats                        |
   |Australia_________|_________All in your point of view, I suppose.________|

Carol Phillips wrote:
>So, do you think "rish" has all the same conotations as "fuck"?  You talk
>about rishathra at first, but after you've done it a few times, you just
>rish the night away.

Why do I hear Sam Cook in my mind when I read this?

"Rishin', rishin', everybody's feelin' great...
Rishin', rishin', rishin' the night away..."
_____________________________________________________________________
Steve Sloan                        E-mail: sloan@...
Senior in Computer Science at the University of Alabama in Huntsville
Check out Kithrup.JPG on MY NEW WEB SITE (I'm so excited):
     http://www.cs.uah.edu/cs/students/ssloan/

>In general puppeteers are such sheep I wonder if the odd puppeteer Hitler
>or Stalan appeared on occasion.

I thought the Hindmost *was* a "puppeteer Hitler or Stalin", although not
*quite* as evil. The form of insanity that allowed him to travel in space
was megalomania.
_____________________________________________________________________
Steve Sloan                        E-mail: sloan@...
Senior in Computer Science at the University of Alabama in Huntsville
Check out Kithrup.JPG on MY NEW WEB SITE (I'm so excited):
     http://www.cs.uah.edu/cs/students/ssloan/

At 08:53 AM 11/25/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Zack suggests that the Puppeteers must have been more brave in the past
>or they would never have developed space travel.  I think this
>misinterprets two key aspects of the puppeteer psychology: 1) The
>puppeteers will do something very dangerous, if the alternative of doing
>nothing is _more_ dangerous,  2) The puppeteers will not hesitate to
>expose others to danger if it protects the herd as a whole

While I agree with your views, the brave puppeteers that took these risks
were by there own definition 'insane'.  In general puppeteers are such
sheep I wonder if the odd puppeteer Hitler or Stalan appeared on occasion.
It strikes me the average puppeteers would have had trouble resisting them.
  On the otherhand, despite what a coward the Hindmost was,  he could show
some real steel, too- he did not accept his removal as Hindmost, stole a
spaceship, captureed a human (well, a disfunctional wirehead) and a healthy
adult Kzin, for gosh sakes, and took off for the Ringworld on the hope of
finding something to restore his position.  By puppeteer standards he must
have been a raving lunatic.

Even given this, Zack could be right, too.  Let's not forget that nasty
hind claws that could crack an Kzin's exoskeleton or kick the heart out of
a human being's chest.  At one time in their history they MUST have been
much more aggressive, or their genetic survivial tools would probably not
have included intelligence.  Perhaps the present cowardly behavior is the
result of a misguided breeding program by the Politically Correnct members
of their society.


------------------------------------
Frank W. Moore
Auctoritas Software
Voice: (916) 726-2025
E-Mail: fmoore@...
Internet: http://www.auctoritas.com

At 08:09 PM 11/24/96 -0500, you wrote:
>I seem to remember somewhere, not in any of the Ringworld books, somehting
>about how puppetters reproduce, and it was the first time I remember reading
>that about how it actually works.  I can't remember where it was, and I want
>to re-read that section.
>
>Anyone have any ideas?
>
There are two types of 'male' puppeteers, one a egg layer, the other a
sperm producer,. who place their respective sexual 'products' in a host
'female' creature (which are self replicating) where the egg quickens and
the puppeteer zygote grows while eating its host.  Louis Wu thought it
disgusting.   I was more fascinated how such a parasitic relationship could
have occurred in nature originally.  There are analogs on Earth but all
involoved an average male/female mating and the use of a host for the
females eggs/young.  Perhaps the puppeteers started that way but modified
their genes to avoid the dangers of actual physical contract, or maybe they
just didn't want to 'hit' on each other. :-)

------------------------------------
Frank W. Moore
Auctoritas Software
Voice: (916) 726-2025
E-Mail: fmoore@...
Internet: http://www.auctoritas.com

At 09:31 AM 11/25/96 -0500, you wrote:
> Frank suggests that Louis Wu was a passive (actually he said "Passage,"
but I think he meant "Passive") participant while Teela "impaled herself" on\
>him.  Now really, Frank.  How passive could he have been if she got herself
>impaled?  :]
>
Experience teaches that if your partner is impaling herself on you, it does
to pay for you to move about too much.  There is impaled, and there is
IMPALED (ouch!).  %-)

------------------------------------
Frank W. Moore
Auctoritas Software
Voice: (916) 726-2025
E-Mail: fmoore@...
Internet: http://www.auctoritas.com

Frank suggests that Louis Wu was a passive (actually he said "Passage," but I
think he meant "Passive") participant while Teela "impaled herself" on\
him.  Now really, Frank.  How passive could he have been if she got herself
impaled?  :]


					 CArrol Fry

Zack suggests that the Puppeteers must have been more brave in the past
or they would never have developed space travel.  I think this
misinterprets two key aspects of the puppeteer psychology: 1) The
puppeteers will do something very dangerous, if the alternative of doing
nothing is _more_ dangerous,  2) The puppeteers will not hesitate to
expose others to danger if it protects the herd as a whole

	 Principle 1 suggests that even the most conservative faction of
puppeteer society will not eliminate the space program, because the
alternative of not knowing what dangers are out there is worse than
almost any danger space travel can produce.  Principle 2 suggests that
the herd fundamentally doesn't care about Challenger-type disasters.
The typical sane herd-member would never go into space herself and the
loss of 7, 70 or 700,000 puppeteers in a space-disaster does not
threaten the herd (Humans by contrast (by and large) empathize with each
other on an individual basis, which is why astronauts were not sent into
space until there was a very good chance that they would return).  I
rather suspect that the first puppeteer astronauts were *forced* into
their capsules by the herd and were almost certainly insane (by
puppeteer standards).  For the herd it's a win-win situation: either
they're rid of a dangerous element (and on the puppeteer homeworld there
is probably nothing more dangerous to the herd than an insane puppeteer)
or they get the added safety and prosperity that a spacefaring culture
has.

	 This analysis also explains why there is little chance of the Belters
going the puppeteer route.  The rewards of risk for humankind are
assigned to the individual humans that take the risks which results in
an evolutionary advantage for risk-taking; the rewards of risk for
puppeteers are assigned by the herd to the herd.  We're very different
species really.

>Andy @ APL

I seem to remember somewhere, not in any of the Ringworld books, somehting
about how puppetters reproduce, and it was the first time I remember reading
that about how it actually works.  I can't remember where it was, and I want
to re-read that section.

Anyone have any ideas?

Life, Health, Strength to you, Carol                        Redflame@...

               1914 Wavecrest Lane; Houston, Texas; 77062; USA
            * * *  "If your God is dead, try one of mine."  * * *

>Of all the hundreds of thousands of words the Larry Niven has strung
>together, most supurbly imo, "she impaled herself on him" has got to be the
>five worst.   I don't know about you, but when I hear the word "impaled" I
>think of Vlad the Impaler, who impaled, how many, thousands?  It sounds like
>something that would happen in a traffic accident in a horror movie.  It
>sounds like a way for one to commit suicide, in the same vein as a Roman
>falling on his sword, having gotten his best friend to hold it for him.  In
>short, this is simply not romantic and wouldn't put me in the mood.  I don't
>see how anyone could miss the violence inherent in this metaphor.
>
Carol, men AND women use all sort of language, metaphors, allegories, etc.
every day, and someone is bound to take offense in some way a word may be
used.  It is often a matter of individual perception.  That is why there
has been such a revolt lately against so called political correctness.

  My image of the passage was the Louis was a passage object in the
intercourse, and that his partner mounted him in such as way to give the
image of impaling.  I invite your alternate description that would give the
same imagery Niven was trying to convey that avoids the word.   I think you
are trying to take artist license and make it more than Niven intended.

As to the inherent violence in the word, well, a word has meaning not only
in its current defination but also in  the context in which it is used.
Recently someone suggested that the word 'fuck' originally meant to hit,
and as slang suggested violence sex with an unwilling partner.  Shall I
extrapolate that to mean that past and present sexual partners of mine were
suggesting I commit actual violence against them when they ask to be
'fucked' harder?

------------------------------------
Frank W. Moore
Auctoritas Software
Voice: (916) 726-2025
E-Mail: fmoore@...
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At 12:12 PM 11/23/96 -0500, fmoore@... wrote:
>At 06:45 PM 11/22/96 -0500, redflame@... wrote:
>>Maybe it's just another way of saying "Oh baby she got on top!"
>>...This aformentioned quote (where is it from?) has even more violent
>>conotations than "fuck" and hasn't even the advantage of being fun to say.
>
>I got the 'point' as soon I read it, and violence did not cross my mind.

Of all the hundreds of thousands of words the Larry Niven has strung
together, most supurbly imo, "she impaled herself on him" has got to be the
five worst.   I don't know about you, but when I hear the word "impaled" I
think of Vlad the Impaler, who impaled, how many, thousands?  It sounds like
something that would happen in a traffic accident in a horror movie.  It
sounds like a way for one to commit suicide, in the same vein as a Roman
falling on his sword, having gotten his best friend to hold it for him.  In
short, this is simply not romantic and wouldn't put me in the mood.  I don't
see how anyone could miss the violence inherent in this metaphor.

Life, Health, Strength to you, Carol                        Redflame@...

               1914 Wavecrest Lane; Houston, Texas; 77062; USA
            * * *  "If your God is dead, try one of mine."  * * *

At 06:45 PM 11/22/96 -0500, you wrote:
>And as for the "impaled herself on him" quotation, I think that was one of
>Niven's WORST... For some reason I feel personally insulted by it. (No,
>Ted.) Maybe it's just another way of saying "Oh baby she got on top!"  A
>woman would never write that, nor find it sexy.  Am I being sexist here?
>This aformentioned quote (where is it from?) has even more violent
>conotations than "fuck" and hasn't even the advantage of being fun to say.
>Do men REALLY think of it as "impaling her"?  I'd prefer thinking of it as
>just bad wording.

Well, I've heard gals say far worse than that, so I guess how you read it
is a personal thing.  Just take it as writer's imagery.  I got the 'point'
as soon I read it, and violence did not cross my mind.

------------------------------------
Frank W. Moore
Auctoritas Software
Voice: (916) 726-2025
E-Mail: fmoore@...
Internet: http://www.auctoritas.com