Let me rephrase what I was trying to get across to everyone regarding the
difference between indian names for men and women.  Men's name do not use wi or
wiya.  A women's name should have at the end wi or wiya.  This ending implies it
is a woman.  There are several women in this group who have indians names but
have not added the wi or wiya to their name.  therefore we cannot distingush if
it is a male or female talking.  In addition, for those who are interesting in
helping to preserve the lakota language please keep in mind that men have a
different speech from women.  In addition, if you wish to confirm my indianness,
please ask connie, I believe he is the one that started this group,  He has
worked quite extensively with my stepsister.   I am lakota from pine ridge south
dakota but now I am an urban indian living next to the big city of chicago.

Malatare,

I for one did understand your point and concern - and there's nothing wrong with
it.
Can it be that that last post signed with Y has caused this (maybe embarrassed?)
silence here?! We all are here to learn, hence should be grateful for any advice
given
by anybody.

Wopila eciciye
Le Aolung miyelo

--- In lakhotaiyapi@yahoogroups.com, malatare@a... wrote:
> Let me rephrase what I was trying to get across to everyone regarding the
difference between indian names for men and women.  Men's name do not use wi or
wiya.  A women's name should have at the end wi or wiya.  This ending implies it
is a
woman.  There are several women in this group who have indians names but have
not
added the wi or wiya to their name.  therefore we cannot distingush if it is a
male or
female talking.  In addition, for those who are interesting in helping to
preserve the
lakota language please keep in mind that men have a different speech from women.
In addition, if you wish to confirm my indianness, please ask connie, I believe
he is
the one that started this group,  He has worked quite extensively with my
stepsister.
I am lakota from pine ridge south dakota but now I am an urban indian living
next to
the big city of chicago.

Does anyone here know how to translate the word "baby jackdaw"
or "little jackdaw" properly into Lak'ota? Pilamaya ye.

Hello galchonok17,

Tuesday, August 12, 2003, 10:19:04 PM, you wrote:

g> Does anyone here know how to translate the word "baby jackdaw"
g> or "little jackdaw" properly into Lak'ota? Pilamaya ye.

I don't know whether jackdaw is an American aboriginal bird, it is
called "European Jackdaw" or "Eurasian Jackdaw" (Corvus monedula),
with three subspecies - West European, East European and Swedish.

However Corvus monedula is listed in the "The A.O.U. Check-list of
North American Birds": http://www.aou.org/aou/birdlist.html#corv
so we could hope for some Lakota term for it.
Anyhow I haven't found any trace of a jackdaw in my sources -
dictionaries and texts.

Perhaps you could use some other names from the Corvidae family
(vranovye):

crow: kangi [kxaN-g^i']
raven (Rus. voron): kangi tanka [.. txaN'-ka]
magpie (Rus. soroka): halhate [hal-ha'-te] - the name imitates its call.
         unkcekiha [uN-kce'-ki-xa], literally, buries its dung
jay (Rus. soika): zintkatogleglega [ziN-tka'-txo-gle-gle-g^a], lit.,
bird-blue/green-spotted

For a "baby-" you could use -cincala [chiN-ca'-la], young animal
or -la (diminutive term)
or cik'ala [ci'k-a-la], small

Do svidaniya,

--
Best regards,
Kostya Wablenica                            mailto:wablenica@...

Oh, I got it:
in the North American birds list the Eurasian Jackdaw is marked with
(A) - accidental/casual.

Toksha akhe.
K.

Hi and hello into the silent circle!

Can plz. someone explain to me the following use of _wanji_ in an example
I somehow am having in my memory (at least, hope so):

A.: He otunwanhe kin el tuktel owotetipi wanji han hwo?
B.: Ka owigli'o'inanjin kin hel isakib wanji he!

Given the fact that in A

1) it is a question and
2) hence 'restaurant' (owotetipi) is indistinct

I can understand the use of _wanji_ (instead of _wan_), but how's this with
the answer B, where the speaker is referring to a distinct place he's having
in mind! Is it the fact(?) that - maybe - _wan_ is nothing but an (indefinite)
topic marker, and thus cannot be used isolated?

Pilamayayelo

Aolung le miye

--- In lakhotaiyapi@yahoogroups.com, aolung <no_reply@y...> wrote:

Ake le miyelo!
Sorry for the 2 typos in one word - it has to be _wigli'o'inajin_ :(

> A.: He otunwanhe kin el tuktel owotetipi wanji han hwo?
> B.: Ka wigli'o'inajin kin hel isakib wanji he!

  Aolung le miye

----- Original Message -----

From: kipper

To: kiptahn@...

Sent: 8/15/2003 1:36:06 AM

Subject: [Lakota Iyapi] Invitation

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ai_sal - Native stories, legends & prophecies .. All Nations - Nation by Nation, Tribe by Tribe - in alphabetical order!

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I would translate it like this:

A: Where's a restaurant in this town?
B: There's one over there next to the gas station.

They're using "wanji" because they're not talking about a specific
restaurant, just someplace to eat.
Speaker B may have a specific restaurant in mind, but he's not
naming it, he's just saying "There is one over there," like in "Es
gibt einen da drüben."
I think "wan" and "wanji" are pretty much interchangeable. It
means "a" or "one".
I think "he" is the statement form of "han" in this case, used as a
question/statement "Is there?"/ "there is" ("es gibt"). In D I think
we say "yukan?"/ "yuke." As in "Mni yukan?" Is there (any) water?
"Han, mni yuke." Yes, there is water.

Does that help?

Lisa

--- In lakhotaiyapi@yahoogroups.com, aolung <no_reply@y...>
wrote:
> Hi and hello into the silent circle!
>
> Can plz. someone explain to me the following use of _wanji_
in an example
> I somehow am having in my memory (at least, hope so):
>
> A.: He otunwanhe kin el tuktel owotetipi wanji han hwo?
> B.: Ka owigli'o'inanjin kin hel isakib wanji he!
>
> Given the fact that in A
>
> 1) it is a question and
> 2) hence 'restaurant' (owotetipi) is indistinct
>
> I can understand the use of _wanji_ (instead of _wan_), but
how's this with
> the answer B, where the speaker is referring to a distinct place
he's having
> in mind! Is it the fact(?) that - maybe - _wan_ is nothing but an
(indefinite)
> topic marker, and thus cannot be used isolated?
>
> Pilamayayelo
>
> Aolung le miye

Thanks Elisabeth for your reply.

--- In lakhotaiyapi@yahoogroups.com, "Elisabeth" <canksayuha@y...> wrote:
> I would translate it like this:
>
> A: Where's a restaurant in this town?
> B: There's one over there next to the gas station.


Your translation is perfect! (I learned that, if _isakib_ (neben) has the s=
tress
on first syllable, it means "right by".)


> They're using "wanji" because they're not talking about a specific
> restaurant, just someplace to eat.
> Speaker B may have a specific restaurant in mind, but he's not
> naming it, he's just saying "There is one over there," like in "Es
> gibt eines da drüben."

The latter doesn't seem to be too convincing, as the speaker actually
has a specific cafe in his mind (one of all restaurants existing, yet
the only one situated at that place). Just using the same word "one"
in English translation, probably doesn't explain this L. grammatical
use sufficiently.

(BTW, I've posed a couple of questions on a related topic here:
http://www.lojban.org/wiki/index.php/irrealis-realis%20vs.%20indistinct-dis=
tinct%3F
the reference is here:
http://www.lojban.org/wiki/index.php/gadri%20report%2C%20aug%202003 )


> I think "wan" and "wanji" are pretty much interchangeable. It
> means "a" or "one".

Yes, obviously - yet, still don't know exactly why :(


> I think "he" is the statement form of "han" in this case, used as a
> question/statement "Is there?"/ "there is" ("es gibt"). In D I think
> we say "yukan?"/ "yuke." As in "Mni yukan?" Is there (any) water?
> "Han, mni yuke." Yes, there is water.


Genau! It seems to be a bit different, though,  in Dakota. Not unlike
in other languages, like English and German, there are words for
"to stand" and "to lie", the latter can be _yankA_ in L..

Wopila

Alfred

Deksi, ahaas* idukcan, kecanmi!
You're thinking about it too hard, methinks.

--- In lakhotaiyapi@yahoogroups.com, aolung <no_reply@y...>
wrote:

> > They're using "wanji" because they're not talking about a
specific
> > restaurant, just someplace to eat.
> > Speaker B may have a specific restaurant in mind, but he's
not
> > naming it, he's just saying "There is one over there," like in
"Es
> > gibt eines da drüben."
>
> The latter doesn't seem to be too convincing,

What is to be convinced? What seems not too convincing, the
translation or the explanation? I still don't understand why you're
having a problem with it. Speaker A asked for a place to eat,
speaker B says "There's one over there."

"One" in this case refers to a one out of a set of possibilities:
speaker A doesn't know or care what the choices are, speaker B
refers him to 1 out of a set of known restaurants he's got in his
head, choosing the 1 that seems the most convenient to
speaker A. It would not make sense to say "the" restaurant (kin)
because no one has named a restaurant and speaker A is
apparently unfamiliar with the area. Speaker B may have a
specific restaurant in his mind, but I doubt speaker A can read
his mind. Speaker A asked for "a" restaurant, not "the" restaurant
(where they make really good pies, for example), so speaker B
pointed him to one.

> as the speaker actually
> has a specific cafe in his mind (one of all restaurants existing,
yet
> the only one situated at that place). Just using the same word
"one"
> in English translation, probably doesn't explain this L.
grammatical
> use sufficiently.

Like I said, I think you're thinking about it TOO HARD.


>
> (BTW, I've posed a couple of questions on a related topic here:

(Haven't looked at them yet)


> > I think "wan" and "wanji" are pretty much interchangeable. It
> > means "a" or "one".
>
> Yes, obviously - yet, still don't know exactly why :(

You don't know why "wan" means "one"? or what?

>
>
> > I think "he" is the statement form of "han" in this case, used
as a
> > question/statement "Is there?"/ "there is" ("es gibt"). In D I
think
> > we say "yukan?"/ "yuke." As in "Mni yukan?" Is there (any)
water?
> > "Han, mni yuke." Yes, there is water.
>
>
> Genau! It seems to be a bit different, though,  in Dakota. Not
unlike
> in other languages, like English and German, there are words
for
> "to stand" and "to lie", the latter can be _yankA_ in L..

Yes, in D. there is also "to lie",  _yankA_, though it's also used
for
sitting, resting, or existing in a place, as in "The book is on the
table": wowapi kin wahnawotapi akan yanke.
But I don't feel that I can get into a deep semantical discussion
over "han," "yanka," "yukan," etc., because I don't know these well
enough.

As for the above discussion of wanzi, I can only say that that feels
right to me, also that I don't know enough grammar rules and
theories to really understand what it is that you're confused
about. How would you explain your question to the average Joe
off the street who knows nothing at all about linguistics?

Lisa

Lisa,

did you visit the page I pointed to? There, the general problems are
a lot more elaborated. (irrealis-realis vs. indistinct-distinct?)

http://www.lojban.org/wiki/index.php/irrealis-real
is%20vs.%20indistinct-distinct%3F

(BTW, the people on that board are high-key linguists, sometimes
pretty hard
to keep track with. Very serious folk I'm connected with since many
years.)

--- In lakhotaiyapi@yahoogroups.com, "Elisabeth" <canksayuha@y...>
wrote:
> Deksi, ahaas* idukcan, kecanmi!
> You're thinking about it too hard, methinks.
>
> --- In lakhotaiyapi@yahoogroups.com, aolung <no_reply@y...>
> wrote:
>
> > > They're using "wanji" because they're not talking about a
> specific
> > > restaurant, just someplace to eat.
> > > Speaker B may have a specific restaurant in mind, but he's
> not
> > > naming it, he's just saying "There is one over there," like in
> "Es
> > > gibt eines da drüben."
> >
> > The latter doesn't seem to be too convincing,
>
> What is to be convinced? What seems not too convincing, the
> translation or the explanation? I still don't understand why you're
> having a problem with it. Speaker A asked for a place to eat,
> speaker B says "There's one over there."


Your translation - as said already - is perfect! Just would like
to know the reason for the use of _wanji_ (that, I also do no doubt,
most probably is correct too).


Alfred

Hau Aolung,

Indeed, wanji alone means "one (of many)" and is actually a cardinal
numeral, not an article, while "waN" cannot stand alone as well as
"(k')eya", "kiN", and "k'uN".

So "wanji" in sentence B substitutes "owotethipi wan"

Toksha akhe
Kostja

Hau Kostya,

thanks! - that's it :)

toksa ake

Aolung

PS. I also have signed the petition (a claim incredibly overdue)

--- In lakhotaiyapi@yahoogroups.com, Wablenica <wablenica@m...> wrote:
> Hau Aolung,
>
> Indeed, wanji alone means "one (of many)" and is actually a cardinal
> numeral, not an article, while "waN" cannot stand alone as well as
> "(k')eya", "kiN", and "k'uN".
>
> So "wanji" in sentence B substitutes "owotethipi wan"
>
> Toksha akhe
> Kostja

--- In lakhotaiyapi@yahoogroups.com, Wablenica <wablenica@m...> wrote:
> Hau Aolung,
>
> Indeed, wanji alone means "one (of many)" and is actually a cardinal
> numeral, not an article, while "waN" cannot stand alone as well as
> "(k')eya", "kiN", and "k'uN".
>
> So "wanji" in sentence B substitutes "owotethipi wan"
>
> Toksha akhe
> Kostja

Hau tunska, le ake miyelo :)

This should've been quite obvious to me, yet, it seems that, due to my
- pretty unreflected - native tongue, I somehow got blocked:

Different from many other languages (like English), in German an
article (or at least a homophone) can stand alone. E.g. "Kennst Du *die*
Frau?" (Do you know the woman?) - "Nein, *die* kenne ich nicht."
(No, the one mentioned, I don't know.) In this use, the article _die_ is
almost like a demonstrative pronoun "diese" (this one), but slightly
different (I think): somehow having a relative function in the sense of
"the aforementioned" or "the one referred to by you're question".

In French, the articles _le_ and _la_ are at least homophone with the
personal pronouns in accusative respectively: "l'homme" - "je l'aime";
"la ville" - "je la connais bien".

(In Romanian, "o fatã" (a girl) and "L-am iubit-o" (her-I-loved-her) is
nothing but a joke ;) since _o_ here is the indefinite article.)

Toksa ake

Alfred le miye

Hello Alfred,

Sunday, August 17, 2003, 2:13:31 PM, you wrote:

a> Different from many other languages (like English), in German an
a> article (or at least a homophone) can stand alone.


Wicayakxe. I think that we can see the rule here: whenever the word
has another (primary?) uses (as a pronoun, numeral, etc.), it can be
used alone as an article too.
Nakoda has two articles: zhe/zhena (= he/hena), definite, and waNzhiN,
indefinite. Zero article is more wide-spread than in L/D.
When zhe / waNzhiN stand alone it can be translated  in their primary
uses - "that", and "one (of)".

LDN has other features that are absent in many European languages and
present in many others. For example, taku, tuwa, tohaN, etc. are both
interrogative pronouns and indefinite (what?/something, who?/somebody,
etc.).

The origin of kiN and k'uN is unknown, afaik. For me, k'uN can be from
kiN uN (to be/exist), that adds reality to the article.

I doubt that the words wanji, (k')eya, etaN, cha can be labeled as
articles. I would call wanji a numeral, etaN - a partitive
(postposition), and cha a conjunction (even in sentences like 'hogan
cha wachin'), k'eya is obviously kiN eya, the latter word meaning
'some'.

I agree that these are on their way of turning into articles, but this
is still a process.

--
Best regards,
  Wablenica                            mailto:wablenica@...

--- In lakhotaiyapi@yahoogroups.com, Catpurr46@a... wrote:
> Alfred,
>
> I realize that one of these days, all that will make sense to me. I can hope
> anyway. But for right now, I'm like "duh".  :)    Keep it up and maybe one day
> I'll know what the heck you mean.  That is if I can keep up with you guys.
>
> Cat

Cat,

this is not as complicated as it might appear:

You say e.g. "owotetipi wan" for "a/one restaurant" or "wicincala yamni na
hoksila wan wicabluha" for "I have three girls and a/one boy". _wan_ (al-
though indicating a number - compare it to _yamni_ in example two) here
is an - indefinite - article, and therefore not allowed to stand alone but only
together with its noun. So, when you want to form an answer to a question
whether there was a restaurant, you'd e.g. have to say: "Ka wigli'o'inajin kin
hel isakip *wanji* he" (there is *one* over there, right beside the gas
station),
i.e., you'll have to use the *number* _wanji_ instead of the article _wan_!

What was confusing me with the above short dialogue, was the following:

Generally, _wan_ is used for smth real (e.g. lying in the past or present) for
example in "Hoksila wan bluha" (I have a boy), but not for smth "irrealis"
(e.g. lying in the future etc.). So, in questions or commands and the like,
one has to choose _wanji_ instead (e.g. "Hoksila wanji luha hwo? - Do you
have one boy?)
In sentences like the one dealing with candies "Wanji icu wo!" (Take one!),
"Wanji yacin hwo?" (Do you like to have one?) the very reason for using
_wanji_ is not too obvious, because two grammatical rules could stand for
it:
1) see above - it's a command resp. question,
2) it's a numeral and standing alone, without a noun (waskuyeca).

The fact that in the restaurant example (ka wigli'o'inajin kin hel isakib
*wanji* he") there's _wanji_ even though the sentence is a statement (realis)
and not a question or command (irrealis), clearly proves that - here - it is
reason 2).

Hope this helps :)

Aolung le miye

Cat--
A while ago you emailed me a question and I was unable to read
the attachment. I e-mailed you back but it bounced, said
something about a delivery failure. Try again? Try sending the
question in the body of the e-mail, rather than an attachment.

Lisa

--- In lakhotaiyapi@yahoogroups.com, Catpurr46@a... wrote:
> Alfred,
>
> I realize that one of these days, all that will make sense to me. I
can hope
> anyway. But for right now, I'm like "duh".  :)    Keep it up and
maybe one day
> I'll know what the heck you mean.  That is if I can keep up with
you guys.
>
> Cat

Hello Kostya,

--- In lakhotaiyapi@yahoogroups.com, Wablenica <wablenica@m...> wrote:
> Hello Alfred,
>
> Sunday, August 17, 2003, 2:13:31 PM, you wrote:
>
> a> Different from many other languages (like English), in German an
> a> article (or at least a homophone) can stand alone.
>
>
> Wicayakxe. I think that we can see the rule here: whenever the word
> has another (primary?) uses (as a pronoun, numeral, etc.), it can be
> used alone as an article too.
> Nakoda has two articles: zhe/zhena (= he/hena), definite, and waNzhiN,
> indefinite. Zero article is more wide-spread than in L/D.
> When zhe / waNzhiN stand alone it can be translated  in their primary
> uses - "that", and "one (of)".


Don't regard _he/hena_ as articles. They seem to be demonstrative pro-
nouns, often in the function of pronouns.

> LDN has other features that are absent in many European languages and
> present in many others. For example, taku, tuwa, tohaN, etc. are both
> interrogative pronouns and indefinite (what?/something, who?/somebody,
> etc.).


This is the fact in Bavarian, where _wos_ is used for "what?" and "something"
(<-etwas). In German/English _was/what_ can stand for both interrogative
and relative pronoun. BTW, also in Yiddish: "vos hostu? - "du zolst ton, vos
dir hot gezogt der tate".

> The origin of kiN and k'uN is unknown, afaik. For me, k'uN can be from
> kiN uN (to be/exist), that adds reality to the article.


I share your opinion (X kin 'un... -> X k'un... = X being the fact, ...)

> I doubt that the words wanji, (k')eya, etaN, cha can be labeled as
> articles. I would call wanji a numeral, etaN - a partitive
> (postposition), and cha a conjunction (even in sentences like 'hogan
> cha wachin'), k'eya is obviously kiN eya, the latter word meaning
> 'some'.


Again agreed: hogan ca wacin -> [there's a fish such as I want it] - all
this is very interesting on a logic background! I'm not at all a good
logician, yet, IMHO, DLN-grammar is pretty close to the principles
shaped out in Lojban (le logji bangu) - you should have a look there!

> I agree that these are on their way of turning into articles, but this
> is still a process.


I like the term "topic marker" much more, since all these are different
from being articles, as it seems.

Toksa ake

Alfred le miye

Hi all,

I'm new to the group and have a question or two.  My fiancee and I
are getting married next month and are looking for reading to
incorporate into our ceremony.  The ceremony will be outdoors in a
grassy meadow in Colorado.  Although neither of us are native
american, we think very highly of the Lakota as a people and a
culture.  Now for my question.  Does anyone know of a Lakota wedding
prayer that we might use?  We have found an Apache one, but would
really like one from the Lakota people.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Grant

My sister got married a few months ago and had a similar
request. She (and Mom) had looked in books and found an
Apache one too, possibly the same you're referring to, but asked
me because they knew I was "into" Dakota stuff.

So I asked a few of my Dakota friends and mentors if they had
any suggestions.

One of the points that came up was: Is this really appropriate?
Why do you want to do this? Why try to use Native American
prayers when neither of you are Native American? Do you not
have your own prayers? Please do not take this as criticism or
an attack, but an honest, well-meaning question (meant more for
your own sake than to satisfy my curiosity).

Then I asked a Dakota woman (a fluent speaker) about what a
person might say at a wedding. She didn't bring up the topic of
race, but familial relationships. Since I said it was for my sister,
she wanted to be sure that I was older: because if it were my
older sister getting married, I would have no business giving her
advice! ;-) But since I was the elder sister, she said it was all
right. But as for actual words or prayers she didn't say anything
specific, she basically indicated that it was up to me, totally an
individual thing; she indicated that I might ask a blessing on the
family that the two of them were going to create together.

In the end, I gave up on having a "reading" of any kind of Dakota
prayer for the wedding, feeling that since no one in the wedding
party or audience was Indian, they wouldn't get it anyway. But
instead I said a toast to the newly-weds at the reception after the
ceremony, which I never wrote down but just spoke from my
heart.

From what little I know of Dakota prayers, I think there's not any
codified prayer, it's just up to the individual. The most important
thing is that you speak from your heart. Cante etanhan woglaka
ye!

He Lisa miye.

--- In lakhotaiyapi@yahoogroups.com, "Grant" <gpneppl@y...>
wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm new to the group and have a question or two.  My fiancee
and I
> are getting married next month and are looking for reading to
> incorporate into our ceremony.  The ceremony will be outdoors
in a
> grassy meadow in Colorado.  Although neither of us are native
> american, we think very highly of the Lakota as a people and a
> culture.  Now for my question.  Does anyone know of a Lakota
wedding
> prayer that we might use?  We have found an Apache one, but
would
> really like one from the Lakota people.
>
> Thanks for any help you can provide.
>
> Grant