>I have a basic question.  What are the differences between the model IV
>- 1050 ( which I have ) and the IV-1200?

Hi Kevin:

I also have a 1050 lbs.

The struts, wing carrythrough, landing gear support tubes are 049 instead
of 035. The strut is also 1" instead of 7/8"

The fin is larger and mounted differently.

I wish I would have waited for the 1200 because the extra 150 lbs are
almost a net gain, but......may be next time

Regards,

Gunnar Doerwald

Kitfox IV  s/n 1600  Rotax 912 1050 lbs
in Virgil, Ontario, Canada
N 43' 11   W 79' 07



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Dennis Brackett said :

"   ...   Whew! This sounds like it might be confusing!  I know it
worked for me
although I'm not sure I
explained the process adequately   ...   "

Great explanation Dennis, and much better than my method of getting the
insert ( almost ! ) perfectly plumb with a digital level on the slotted
push stick.

Jim McManus


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Hi Jeff.
I remember that step and it was a little scarey to drill those first holes
through the spar and insert.  It is an expensive mistake if one mucks it up.
I have and early Model IV (#1528) with the then standard spars so I can't
speak to the issue of how tight the inserts will be with the thicker spars.
My inserts slipped in easily.  I can address a technique I used to make sure
the insert is where you think it is inside the spar when you drill that
first series of rivet holes.

     1. Make sure you have a good reference line on the top of the spar and
the bottom of the spar
         marked with a good fine point sharpie. I used a 5 foot piece of 3/4
" aluminum angle from the
         hardware store as a ruler because it sits parallel on the round
spar.  I located the top and
         bottom of each spar and marked a long line down the center.

     2. I then took each spar insert and carefully marked the top and bottom
center of the spar insert.
         I measured to either side of the centerline of the insert to locate
where the rivet line
         would eventually be making sure I had adequate edge clearance on the
insert for the rivet
         holes.

     3. I marked a foot long line on one end of the insert to locate the soon
to be line of rivet holes.
         I then measured where the first rivet at one end of the insert would
be and put a + to locate that
         first hole.

     4. I carefully slid the insert into the spar until the end of the insert
stuck out of the spar a couple of
         inches.  I used the marks on the insert to line up with the marks on
the top of the spar and then
         used the rivet line on the insert to locate the corresponding line
of rivets on the outside of the
         spar.  I used these marks and the aluminum angle ruler to locate the
line of rivet holes on the
         spar itself. I then took a deep breath and drilled and deburred a
#40 hole in the spar where
         the first rivet would go.

     5.  I made a stick from a 1x2 and cut a 6" long slit in the end which
would slip over the vertical
          web of the insert and allow you to push/twist the insert into
position. I had a helper sight
          through the # 40 hole in the spar as I used the stick to slide the
insert into position.  Once the
          insert is on line with the sight hole, you just nudge it along the
line until the + appears in the
          hole.  Drill the insert with a # 40 and get a cleco in it fast.
Now you are locked in and can drill
          the rest of the rivet hole lines with confidence knowing you are
hitting the insert with the
          appropriate edge clearance.

Whew! This sounds like it might be confusing!  I know it worked for me
although I'm not sure I
explained the process adequately.  I remember one rule I always followed
while building my bird.
The trick is to listen to your insides when you encounter a problem in the
building process.  If it does't feel right it probably isn't.  The trick is
to recognize those internal alarms and don't do anything until you get some
advise or some better ideas.  I always got many opinions and then decided
how to proceed.  It was a fun and challenging process and if I succeeded, I
know you can to.   Have fun and I hope this might help.

Dennis Brackett, Kitfox Mod. !V 1050 (144DB)




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>Many types of wire through ordinary bulkhead connectors are OK, but be sure
>you don't put thermocouple leads into those connectors.  The reason is that
>the thermocouple junction consists of a bi-metallic joining of the two
>different types of wire that make up the lead wires.  If you cut the leads
>and put pins on them and then into a bulkhead connector and out the other
>side with the remainder of the leads wires, you have created another
>bi-metallic junction at the connector location.  This will prevent you from
>obtaining reliable temperature measurements at the place you really want to
>measure it.  The thermocouple manufacturers do make bulkhead connectors that
>allow you to carry the leads through the bulkhead--just be sure you don't
>use an ordinary Cannon connectors or the like that are used for ordinary
>power and signal voltages and currents....

    Actually only half true . . . the part about creating new bi-metal
    junctions is true but consider that for every brass pin crimped to
    a thermocouple wire in a plug, there is an equal and opposing junction
    created in the mating plug. From an electrical performance standpoint,
    there is very little error added to thermocouples by taking them
    through a connector. However, it's NOT easy. Thermocouple wire alloys
    are much harder than brass/copper alloys found in wire and connector
    pins. It's difficult to get a sturdy, gas-tight joint on a thermocouple
    conductor by crimping a brass pin to it. It can be done rather well with
    machined-pins . . . solid barrels of brass closed onto the thermocouple
    conductor with a quad-squash die tool. Another more time consuming way
    works rather well. "TIN" the ends of your thermocouple conductors with
    silver solder and then SOLDER the tinned conductors into solder-cup
    type connectors. Only some TC alloys will solder at low temps with
    tin/lead solder but a coating of silver solder over the outside of
    the conductor will make it solderable with ordinary materials common
    to electrical connectors. Yes, there is still more "contamination" of
    the bi-metal measurement system but each lump in the line is offset
    buy a similar lump close by in the mating connector and overall errors
    introduced are insignificant.

    A technique that has been recommended by some manufacturers of
    TC instruments for hombuilts tell you to take TC wire through
    Molex or other open-barrel, sheet-metal pins on low cost plastic
    connectors . . . I don't recommend it.  You can also purchase
    machined pins of the same alloy as the TC wire you're working with
    but believe me, you don't even want to know what they cost.


        Bob . . .

                        ////
                       (o o)
        ===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
        <  Independence Kansas: the     >
        <  Jurassic Park of aviation.   >
        <  Your source for brand new    >
        <  40 year old airplanes.       >
        =================================
           http://www.aeroelectric.com

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I am vacationing in Kissimmee Florida next week. Is there anyone on the list
in the area that I can hook up with and talk kitfox?
Lee Majors
series 5 O-200 32WL

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Come on Christine, don't keep us in suspense!

Michael Harter
Manassas, VA
Classic IV, N46MH, NSI EA81-100/CAP
kitfoxflyer@...

On Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:25:52 -0400 "christine d. thele"
<73634.746@...> writes:
>anybody have a firewall foward, four banger,for a model3,other wise
>who
>does the best rebuild on the 582? They will stop when you least expect
>them
>to! however nose to the wind slow up and and you can land on a fence
>post!
>shortest landing I ever made,.any  other information on my adventure
>will
>have to be bought ,one beer at a time.

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On Fri, 9 Jul 1999 09:18:10 +0100 "Denise Hewitt"
<stephen@...> writes:

>Hi All
>
>I am a new subscriber with a Kitfox mk II with around 250hours on it.
>I am from Birmingham UK.
>I bought the Kitfox 2 years ago after being bored with flying Cesna's
and Pipers.
>The Kitfox is kept on a farm in a hangar and easily get's of the
>ground from the available 700metre strip. =20
>
>Regards
>Steve
>
Welcome aboard Steve! Look forward to hearing from you on various topics.
Sounds like your having fun and that's what it's all about, right? Fly
safe.

Michael Harter
Manassas, VA
Classic IV, N46MH, NSI EA81-100/CAP
kitfoxflyer@...

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Hi Kevin,

The post below relates to uping an early Series 5 gross weight from 1400 to
1550 lbs - my situation too.  You might have some luck searching the archives
on 'Gross', as we had a big gross weight increase thread a while back.

TTFN,
Jonathon


The post listed below eludes to a spar thickness difference. Kevin Hanna

Jeffrey J. Probasco wrote:
> I recently traded my .058 spars for the .065 ones.

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Hi Christine,
I have used GreenSky twice and I do recommend them.    Ron   Model 2   N55KF
----- Original Message -----
From: christine d. thele <73634.746@...>
To: kitfox <kitfox@...>
Sent: Friday, July 09, 1999 2:25 PM
Subject: firewall foward


> anybody have a firewall foward, four banger,for a model3,other wise who
> does the best rebuild on the 582? They will stop when you least expect
them
> to! however nose to the wind slow up and and you can land on a fence post!
> shortest landing I ever made,.any  other information on my adventure will
> have to be bought ,one beer at a time.




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I have an early Model IV (serial # 1429).  My seat lip protrudes about
half-way on the cross tube.  I use five ties per seat side (10 total on the
front and 10 on the back).  I haven't had a problem yet.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox@... [mailto:owner-kitfox@...]On
Behalf Of Smythe Donald F NNVA
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 1999 8:43 AM
To: 'kitfox@...'
Subject: RE: KITFOXSAFE


SMorgan,
     I have talked to SS about this and they basically feel that the seat on
a model IV is pretty well supported with the molded lips.  They did comment,
to keep the lips as long as possibel when trimming.
     Did your seat "lips" break or slip off the tubes?  Was it due to a hard
landing or inflight bouncing?  How many ties did you have on top/bottom of
seat?

Thanks for the input
Don Smythe

> -----Original Message-----
> From: SMorgan52@... [mailto:SMorgan52@...]
> Sent: Thursday, July 08, 1999 10:02 AM
> To: kitfox@...
> Subject: Re: KITFOXSAFE
>
>
> My seat broke loose on a model IV. The cable ties broke and
> the seat bottom
> jammed the controls. Please take note that this can happen to a m-IV.
>


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anybody have a firewall foward, four banger,for a model3,other wise who
does the best rebuild on the 582? They will stop when you least expect them
to! however nose to the wind slow up and and you can land on a fence post!
shortest landing I ever made,.any  other information on my adventure will
have to be bought ,one beer at a time.

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Hello everyone,
I have a basic question.  What are the differences between the model IV
- 1050 ( which I have ) and the IV-1200?  The post listed below eludes
to a spar thickness difference.  In addition I think that I recall a
fuselage difference, but I do not know what they are.  Any input would
be helpful.

Thanks
Kevin Hanna
KF IV-1050 / Subaru


Jeffrey J. Probasco wrote:
>
> Mark,
> Thanks for your insert insertion :-) description.
>
> I recently traded my .058 spars for the .065 ones.  I plan to use my
> original inserts.  Has anyone encounters more difficulty with this
> combination (other than I suspect more clamping force required)?
>
> Any words of wisdom would be greatly appreciated, as I am about to
> tackle the spar insert job.
>
> Jeff Probasco

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Jim,
     Welcome to the list.  I would maybe suggest you find someone (who has
built a Kitfox) to assist you in the inspection of a proposed purchase.
That person should be unknown to the seller.  There are plenty of builders
on this list and cover a wide area of the US and overseas.

Welcome again,
Don Smythe

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Sitton [mailto:jsitton@...]
> Sent: Thursday, July 08, 1999 4:12 PM
> To: kitfox@...
> Subject: New Subscriber Introduction
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> My name is Jim Sitton and I'm a new subscriber to this list.
>
> If there is anyone with a Kitfox (completed or not) near Kansas City
> that wouldn't mind me gawking at it I would appreciate it. Any
> advice/cautions about buying a used Kitfox would be appreciated also.
>
> Jim Sitton
>

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Rick,

I would like to see the pics and info on your Vixen. I have to be honest though,
I'm really looking for a taildragger for off airport use. Who knows though, if I
fall in love with it and you make me the deal of the century.......

Jim

Rick Chandler wrote:

> Jim, give me a call at 909-735-9080. I have a beautiful model 5 Vixen .Email
> at ransrman@... and I will send you the pictures and info.
> Rick
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Sitton <jsitton@...>
> To: kitfox@... <kitfox@...>
> Date: Thursday, July 08, 1999 1:36 PM
> Subject: New Subscriber Introduction
>
> >Hi All,
> >
> >My name is Jim Sitton and I'm a new subscriber to this list.
> >
> >I am very interested in the Kitfox and hope to purchase one very soon. I
> >don't have time to build so I'm looking for a finished plane.
> >
> >I'm a private pilot (SMEL) with about 1200 hours. I own and fly a
> >Weedhopper ultralight which is for sale (anybody want to trade a Harley
> >and an ultralight for a Kitfox?). I'm a partner in a navaids service
> >business, we install, modify, and flight check ground based navaids
> >(LOC, GS, VOR, DME, MKR, NDB). We also design and build flight
> >inspection equipment for inspection/certification of navaids.
> >
> >If there is anyone with a Kitfox (completed or not) near Kansas City
> >that wouldn't mind me gawking at it I would appreciate it. Any
> >advice/cautions about buying a used Kitfox would be appreciated also.
> >
> >Jim Sitton
> >
> >




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Mark,
Thanks for your insert insertion :-) description.

I recently traded my .058 spars for the .065 ones.  I plan to use my
original inserts.  Has anyone encounters more difficulty with this
combination (other than I suspect more clamping force required)?

Any words of wisdom would be greatly appreciated, as I am about to
tackle the spar insert job.

Jeff Probasco


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Cliff

I'm using a Phram 3512.  It is larger but it does fit and oil pressure is
exactly the same as with the factory original, and the Carquest.
I've also got a heat sheild over my exhaust pipe.

-----
> Does anyone know of a satisfactory substitute for the Champion Oil filter
> that Rotax dealers sell for the 912? LEAF sells their filter for nearly
$17.
> There must be an alternative!
>
> Thanks,
> Cliff
>
>


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Jim, give me a call at 909-735-9080. I have a beautiful model 5 Vixen .Email
at ransrman@... and I will send you the pictures and info.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Sitton <jsitton@...>
To: kitfox@... <kitfox@...>
Date: Thursday, July 08, 1999 1:36 PM
Subject: New Subscriber Introduction


>Hi All,
>
>My name is Jim Sitton and I'm a new subscriber to this list.
>
>I am very interested in the Kitfox and hope to purchase one very soon. I
>don't have time to build so I'm looking for a finished plane.
>
>I'm a private pilot (SMEL) with about 1200 hours. I own and fly a
>Weedhopper ultralight which is for sale (anybody want to trade a Harley
>and an ultralight for a Kitfox?). I'm a partner in a navaids service
>business, we install, modify, and flight check ground based navaids
>(LOC, GS, VOR, DME, MKR, NDB). We also design and build flight
>inspection equipment for inspection/certification of navaids.
>
>If there is anyone with a Kitfox (completed or not) near Kansas City
>that wouldn't mind me gawking at it I would appreciate it. Any
>advice/cautions about buying a used Kitfox would be appreciated also.
>
>Jim Sitton
>
>


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To anyone about to "slide" the spar inserts into the spars, here's some
suggestions that may save you some time with this (intricate?) process.  (I
just did it over the 4th of July weekend and have some fresh thoughts that
might spare someone some time/consternation.)  Start with two fairly long 1
x 4's (I ended up using 8 footers) as straight as you can find 'em.  I
started with shorter, slightly warped scrap 1 x 4's with no luck.  Also, I
ended up adding to my wood clamp  (10" Jorgensens) collection...ended up
using six of those.  Started out using some cheap ones from China (That's
in Texas, right?)...don't bother with those...the threads strip.  Also, you
can notch the end of a broomstick/dowel to stick into the "fish-mouth" ends
of the inserts to gently wiggle/twist the insert when pushing it beyond the
end of the spar.

Also, I'd suggest taking some measure to help line-up the insert with the
spar when just starting out.  I used a table (not a sawhorse) at the
wingtip end, levelled the spar with the table top, and set the insert on
the table.  Then you can just lift the far end of the insert slightly while
beginning to slide in the insert.  Simply holding both ends of the insert
by hand, eyeballing it and the spar, and trying to slide it in will get you
off to bad start.

P.S.  I won't elaborate on how many hours it took me to (ahem) "slide" my
four inserts into the spars other than saying the number of hours was not a
single digit number.

Any insight (beyond what's in the manual) regarding the drilling,
deburring, and riveting the spar/insert combo from those who have been
there done that recently?

TIA,

Mark Anliker
Sadorus, IL
S5 TD in progress

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Hi All,

My name is Jim Sitton and I'm a new subscriber to this list.

I am very interested in the Kitfox and hope to purchase one very soon. I
don't have time to build so I'm looking for a finished plane.

I'm a private pilot (SMEL) with about 1200 hours. I own and fly a
Weedhopper ultralight which is for sale (anybody want to trade a Harley
and an ultralight for a Kitfox?). I'm a partner in a navaids service
business, we install, modify, and flight check ground based navaids
(LOC, GS, VOR, DME, MKR, NDB). We also design and build flight
inspection equipment for inspection/certification of navaids.

If there is anyone with a Kitfox (completed or not) near Kansas City
that wouldn't mind me gawking at it I would appreciate it. Any
advice/cautions about buying a used Kitfox would be appreciated also.

Jim Sitton


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Mike,
     I asked the same question about a year ago.  Ended up eating pizza and
drinking beer with a whole bunch of them.  Howard for one.  They are at the
Cammarillo airport north of L.A.  Just next door to Port Hueneme.  Maybe
they will come back to you.  Have a good trip.

Don Smythe

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Logan, Mike S [mailto:LoganMS@...]
> Sent: Thursday, July 08, 1999 8:52 AM
> To: 'Kitfox List'
> Subject: LAX
>
>
> I will be in the LA area starting Monday the 12th through
> Friday morning the
> 16th.  Would love to visit anyone with a kitfox.  You can
> reply directly to
> me at loganms@... .  There doesn't seem to be
> anyone in the St.
> Louis area but there should be someone in the LA area.
>
> Mike Logan
> Series 5
> NSI SHO
>
>
>

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I will be in the LA area starting Monday the 12th through Friday morning the
16th.  Would love to visit anyone with a kitfox.  You can reply directly to
me at loganms@... .  There doesn't seem to be anyone in the St.
Louis area but there should be someone in the LA area.

Mike Logan
Series 5
NSI SHO




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JR,

Just want to compliment you on your explanation.  Very well done!       Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: <JRWillJR@...>
To: <kitfox@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 1999 2:08 AM
Subject: Re: 50 hours


> Inspect the engine cylinders through the exhaust ports and plug holes.
Look
> for carbon buildups along the top of the exh. port and top of piston. Look
to
> see that by rocking the pistons back and fort the rings are free while
> looking into the exhaust port. If significant carbon exist remove the head
> and cylinders and scrape it clean taking care not ot mare anything. Do not
> use chisels, screwdrivers, sandblasters, steel wool etc. Wooden chisels
and
> plastic scrapers with a bristle brush and solvent. My 582 has no carbon
> buildup in 150 hours--just a slight dusting on the top of the piston
crown,
> none in ports or rings or on the combustion chamber. I use pennzoil
aircooled
> oil. I doubt you have a carbon problem but look inside anyway. JR




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SMorgan,
     I have talked to SS about this and they basically feel that the seat on
a model IV is pretty well supported with the molded lips.  They did comment,
to keep the lips as long as possibel when trimming.
     Did your seat "lips" break or slip off the tubes?  Was it due to a hard
landing or inflight bouncing?  How many ties did you have on top/bottom of
seat?

Thanks for the input
Don Smythe

> -----Original Message-----
> From: SMorgan52@... [mailto:SMorgan52@...]
> Sent: Thursday, July 08, 1999 10:02 AM
> To: kitfox@...
> Subject: Re: KITFOXSAFE
>
>
> My seat broke loose on a model IV. The cable ties broke and
> the seat bottom
> jammed the controls. Please take note that this can happen to a m-IV.
>

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My seat broke loose on a model IV. The cable ties broke and the seat bottom
jammed the controls. Please take note that this can happen to a m-IV.

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Inspect the engine cylinders through the exhaust ports and plug holes. Look
for carbon buildups along the top of the exh. port and top of piston. Look to
see that by rocking the pistons back and fort the rings are free while
looking into the exhaust port. If significant carbon exist remove the head
and cylinders and scrape it clean taking care not ot mare anything. Do not
use chisels, screwdrivers, sandblasters, steel wool etc. Wooden chisels and
plastic scrapers with a bristle brush and solvent. My 582 has no carbon
buildup in 150 hours--just a slight dusting on the top of the piston crown,
none in ports or rings or on the combustion chamber. I use pennzoil aircooled
oil. I doubt you have a carbon problem but look inside anyway. JR

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Understand Don. Better change that to a stop and go!

Michael Harter
Manassas, VA
Classic IV, N46MH, NSI EA81-100/CAP
kitfoxflyer@...

On Wed, 7 Jul 1999 08:09:38 -0400  Smythe Donald F NNVA
<SmytheDF@...> writes:
>Michael,
>    I talked to the Truman's "Air Boss" yesterday and explained the
>"PR" we
>could get by allowing you to do some touch and goes on his flight
>deck.  He
>then explained to me the difference between "GOOD" PR and "BAD" PR.
>Guess
>which side of the PR scale your touch and goes fell............
>
>Don Smythe
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michael Harter [mailto:kitfoxflyer@...]
>> mostly removed and being modified. Weird sight.  But bottom
>> line, I sure
>> would like to do a couple of touch and go's on that puppy! Take
>care.
>>
>> Michael Harter
>> Manassas, VA
>> Classic IV, N46MH, NSI EA81-100/CAP
>> kitfoxflyer@...

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Paul,

I think just about every model IV has had to bend the rods to keep from
rubbing on the bottom of the seat. but since that is corrected before
flight, it is not a safety problem. The issue is on the series V the seat
can become dislodged from its mounts or actually break, causing the
controls to bind in flight. That is the reason for it being on the safety
list.

Michael Harter
Manassas, VA
Classic IV, N46MH, NSI EA81-100/CAP
kitfoxflyer@...

On Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:20:33 EDT PWilsonwcr@... writes:
>Don,
> My 4-1200 has major interference between the rods and the seat
>with
>no weight on the seat. This is as delivered from the factory. Some mod
>as
>discussed on the list is required but I have not addressed it yet. (I
>hate to
>attempte to bend the rods--). I have no comments on the 5 issue, but
>my 4
>sure needs a major tweak. So, IMO, you should mention this fact in the
>list
>of problems. Apparently you did not have this problem with your plane.
>I dont
>believe my 4 is flight worthy with the interference.
> Regards, Paul Wilson

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