On 11 Dec 1998 04:39:51 -0000,
"Ken VanderLugt" <kvlugt@...> wrote:
> I think, for me, the essence of Christmas is best symbolized by one
> of the names given to Jesus--Emmanuel, "God with us". However else
> we may choose to view who Jesus was, and what he did...Son of God,
> Messiah, Savior, Prince of Peace...the idea of Jesus as a man, born
> of a woman, who showed us by his example and by his teaching
> HOW--by our constant awareness of His presence, and WHY--because He
> loves us inconditionally and without limits--this is the core
> meaning of Christmas--Emmanuel...Jesus embodying the idea that God
> is with us now and forever.

Sometimes, in the middle of the Christmas rush, it's good to step back
and remember this, the reason we celebrate Christmas in the first
place.

--
Bruce Alderman       baa@...
     http://www2.southwind.net/~baa
A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle.
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On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 20:18:10 -0500,
mgrello@... (Michael Grello) wrote:
> Well, and I don't mean this in a bad way, I think of liberal
> Christianity as following Jesus, as opposed to following the
> followers of Jesus. As history has unfolded, Christianity has
> stayed further and further from a message of grace and love, to one
> of legalism.

Good point.  Jesus said the greatest commandments were "Love God" and
"Love your neighbor".  The apostle Paul said, "The letter kills, but
the Spirit brings life."  But by the fourth century, the church was
defining Christianity by adherence to the Nicene Creed.  (Text can be
found at Michael Anderson's Creeds of Christianity page,
http://www.ovnet/com/~mandrson/xcreeds.htm).  The church had
successfully broken from the legalism of Jesus' day, but had replaced
it with its own form of legalism.  Perhaps it is inevitable.  Maybe it
is easier to follow a finite set of rules, than to actually *love*
people.  Maybe it is easier for most people to intellectually accept a
set of dogmas, than to show genuine concern for society's outcasts.
But Jesus didn't expect his followers to take the easy route.

--
Bruce Alderman       baa@...
     http://www2.southwind.net/~baa
Christianity is not just a set of beliefs; it is a way of life.
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On 11 Dec 1998 04:27:17 -0000,
"Ken VanderLugt" <kvlugt@...> wrote:
> My understanding of religious liberal, or in this case, a liberal
> Christian, would include an approach to the Bible that is
> A)non-literalistic...meaning that I can hold the Bible as a sacred
> scripture of an ancient major religion which I do not have to
> believe to be literally true to believe in the specific and general
> truths that can be gleaned from it through careful study...and

Agreed!

> B)non-exclusivistic...meaning that although I choose to identify
> myself and practice as a Christian, I also believe that
> Christianity is only one of many ways individuals may chose to find
> a meaningful relationship with God and with humanity.

Jesus' parable of the Good Samaritan seems appropriate here.  One
thing which is not often emphasized today is that the Samaritans had a
religion that was not pure Judaism.  They mixed Jewish and Pagan
rituals to form a different sort of religion.

When Jesus used a Samaritan as an example of one who showed love for
his neighbor, one thing he was saying was that strict religious
orthodoxy was not essential to having a relationship with God.

--
Bruce Alderman       baa@...
     http://www2.southwind.net/~baa
The world is a beautiful book, for those who can read it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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All the signs are pointing to the unavoidable fact.  Christmas is
> almost here.
>
> Many of us will go to Christmas Eve services, where the Scriptures are
> woven together to tell the glorious Christmas story, of the virgin
> birth, the Roman census, the trip to Bethlehem, the shepherds and the
> three kings, Herod's decree, the flight to Egypt and subsequent return
> to Galilee, all foretold centuries earlier by the prophets of Israel.
>
> Unfortunately, modern scholarship tells a vastly different story.  A
> biologist will say that, although parthenogenesis is known among lower
> life forms, it does not occur in mammals, including humans.
>
> Historians tell us that Quirinius' census did not occur until some 10
> years after King Herod died, so *something* is out of place.
>
> The trip to Bethlehem is suspect, anyhow.  First, Quirinius' territory
> did not include Galilee.  If Joseph and Mary lived there (Luke's
> claim), they would have been exempt from the census.  It only applied
> to residents of Judea.  Which leads to the second problem: According
> to Matthew, Jesus' parents had a home in Bethlehem (Matt 2:11). There
> is no indication in Matthew that they were originally from Galilee.
>
> The "three kings" do not even appear in the Bible.  In Matthew's
> gospel they were astrologers, of unknown quanatity.
>
> When Joseph and Mary hear of Herod's death their first thought is to
> return to their home in Bethlehem.  But Matthew tells us that because
> Herod's son is ruling over Judea, they instead move to Galilee.
> Matthew neglects to tell us that another of Herod's sons is ruling
> Galilee.
>
> The prophecies are also problematic.  The famous verse in Isaiah
> (7:14) does not specifically mention a virgin in the original
> language.  It simply talks about a young woman, and in its original
> context, possibly refers to Isaiah's wife.  The verse from Hosea, "Out
> of Egypt I have called my son," refers to Moses and the Exodus.  The
> prophecy quoted in Matthew 2:23, "He will be called a Nazarene," does
> not even appear in the Hebrew Scriptures.
>
> What are we to make of the lovely story now?
>
> As far as I can see, there are three options:
>
> 1) We can dismiss the Bible as a collection of outdated mythology.
>
> 2) We can dismiss modern scholarship as anti-God.
>
> 3) We can seek a middle ground, a balance between faith and reason.
> We can strive to infuse this beautiful story with new meanings for the
> twenty-first century and beyond.
>
> Which brings me to the question:
>
> What meanings have y'all found in the Christmas story?

I think, for me, the essence of Christmas is best symbolized by one of the names
given to Jesus--Emmanuel, "God with us". However else we may choose to view who
Jesus was, and what he did...Son of God, Messiah, Savior, Prince of Peace...the
idea of Jesus as a man, born of a woman, who showed us by his example and by his
teaching HOW--by our constant awareness of His presence, and WHY--because He
loves us inconditionally and without limits--this is the core meaning of
Christmas--Emmanuel...Jesus embodying the idea that God is with us now and
forever.
Ken
>
> --
> Bruce Alderman       baa@...
>     http://www2.southwind.net/~baa
> "Sacred cows make great hamburger."
>                    -- Tony Campolo
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Free Web-based e-mail groups -- http://www.eGroups.com
>
>
>



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According to the statistics from eGroups, five people are subscribed
> to KERYGMA, and 14 people have read the archives at the web site.
> Three people have posted messages.
>
> To Ken Vander Lugt and Mike Grello:  Thanks for your input!
>
> To the rest of you:  What are you waiting for?  A formal invitation?
> If so, consider this it!
>
> To those of you reading on the web:  Remember, you don't have to be
> subscribed to KERYGMA to post messages.
>
> To all:  What brought you to KERYGMA?  What sort of discussions would
> you like to see?  What does "liberal Christianity" mean to you?

In spite of George Bush's ugly attempt to make "liberal" a dirty word, I wear
the word as a badge WITH PRIDE!...I consider myself a political liberal, a
social liberal, and a religious liberal.

My understanding of religious liberal, or in this case, a liberal Christian,
would include an approach to the Bible that is A)non-literalistic...meaning that
I can hold the Bible as a sacred scripture of an ancient major religion which I
do not have to believe to be literally true to believe in the specific and
general truths that can be gleaned from it through careful study...and
B)non-exclusivistic...meaning that although I choose to identify myself and
practice as a Christian, I also believe that
Christianity is only one of many ways individuals may chose to find a meaningful
relationship with God and with humanity.

This is not intended as a formal definition, but these components are central
for me.
Thanks for listening.
Ken
>
> --
> Bruce Alderman       baa@...
>     http://www2.southwind.net/~baa
> A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Free Web-based e-mail groups -- http://www.eGroups.com
>
>
>



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Well, and I don't mean this in a bad way,  I think of liberal Christianity
as following Jesus, as opposed to following the followers of Jesus.  As
history has unfolded, Christianity has stayed further and further from a
message of grace and love, to one of legalism.  Just my opinion.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Alderman [mailto:baa@...]
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 10:59 PM
> To: kerygma@egroups.com
> Subject: [kerygma] Who's out there?
>
>
> According to the statistics from eGroups, five people are subscribed
> to KERYGMA, and 14 people have read the archives at the web site.
> Three people have posted messages.
>
> To Ken Vander Lugt and Mike Grello:  Thanks for your input!
>
> To the rest of you:  What are you waiting for?  A formal invitation?
> If so, consider this it!
>
> To those of you reading on the web:  Remember, you don't have to be
> subscribed to KERYGMA to post messages.
>
> To all:  What brought you to KERYGMA?  What sort of discussions would
> you like to see?  What does "liberal Christianity" mean to you?
>
> --
> Bruce Alderman       baa@...
>     http://www2.southwind.net/~baa
> A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Egroups is a FREE service thanks to NextCard Internet VISA. Apply
> online now for an intro APR as low as 2.9%.
> http://ads.egroups.com/click/136/2
>
> Free Web-based e-mail groups -- http://www.eGroups.com
>
>

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I got this from another mailing list.  The quote is an article from
_Christianity Today_, Dec 7, 1998.

"Bob Jones University in Greenville, South Carolina, has announced it will
arrest homosexual graduates who set foot on campus.  In October, alumnus
Wayne Mouritzen, a 60 year old retired pastor, received a letter from the
fundamentalist school's dean of students saying, 'as long as you are living
as a homosexual, you, of course, would not be welcome on the campus and
would be arrested for trespassing if you did visit.'  The ban does not
apply to the campus art museum, which could lose its tax-exempt status for
such action.  The Internal Revenue Service revoked the university's
tax-exempt status in 1970 because of its ban on interracial dating."

Comments, anyone?

--
Bruce Alderman       baa@...
     http://www2.southwind.net/~baa
Hatred and bigotry are not "family values".
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On Mon, 07 Dec 1998 21:59:13 -0600,
baa@... (Bruce Alderman) wrote:
> To all: What brought you to KERYGMA? What sort of discussions would
> you like to see? What does "liberal Christianity" mean to you?

I'll answer my own questions.  I started KERYGMA because there was a
need for it.  The large newsgroups like soc.religion.christian and
bit.listserv.christia attract a wide range of participants, from
liberal to conservative, Christain and non-Christian.  Conservative
Christians have dozens of mailing lists where they can discuss their
theology with like-minded people.  Even atheists have mailing lists
devoted to Bible discussions.  But everywhere I've looked, I have not
found a place where liberal Christians can gather to talk about
matters of faith in a non-confrontational forum.  After 2 1/2 years of
searching for such a place without finding one, I decided to create
one.  And here it is.  I hope KERYGMA can be a place where I can
exchange thoughts and ideas with other liberal Christians, where I can
examine my own faith, learn from the insights of others, and grow.

To me, the term "liberal Christianity" can be defined in two ways: 1)
A commitment to critical examination of the Bible, and 2) A commitment
to the "social gospel".  Because these definitions focus on two
different spheres, it is possible for a person to be a liberal
Christian according to one definition, and not according to the other.
This list was created with both types of liberal Christian in mind.

How about the rest of you?  What brings you here?

--
Bruce Alderman       baa@...
     http://www2.southwind.net/~baa
The world is a beautiful book, for those who can read it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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According to the statistics from eGroups, five people are subscribed
to KERYGMA, and 14 people have read the archives at the web site.
Three people have posted messages.

To Ken Vander Lugt and Mike Grello:  Thanks for your input!

To the rest of you:  What are you waiting for?  A formal invitation?
If so, consider this it!

To those of you reading on the web:  Remember, you don't have to be
subscribed to KERYGMA to post messages.

To all:  What brought you to KERYGMA?  What sort of discussions would
you like to see?  What does "liberal Christianity" mean to you?

--
Bruce Alderman       baa@...
     http://www2.southwind.net/~baa
A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free Web-based e-mail groups -- http://www.eGroups.com

One of my ideas when I started this list was to have a weekly Bible
study discussion.  I don't know how it will work on the Internet, but
I'd like to give it a try.

The verse I've chosen for the first week is a favorite of Bible
literalists.  But does it really support literalism?  Let's look:

     All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for
     reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so
     that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for
     every good work.

First, I'd like to look at what this verse *doesn't* say.  It doesn't
say all Scripture is useful for studying history, astronomy, or
biology.  It doesn't say a literal interpretation of Scripture is
useful for anything.

But it does say *all Scripture is inspired* and *all Scripture is
useful*.  Can Scripture be useful if it is not understood literally?
The apostle Paul certainly seemed to think so.  In Galatians 4:21-31
he suggests an allegorical interpretation of the birth of Abraham's
sons Isaac and Ishmael, as a contrast between the law and grace.

Can Scripture be inspired if it is not 100% accurate in historical
matters?  There are two ways of answering this, IMO.  The first is to
suggest that some Scriptures were not meant to be understood as
history.  Jesus taught in parables, because that was often the best
way to get the point across.  It doesn't matter whether the Good
Samaratin or the Ten Virgins actually existed.  The stories have a
deeper meaning that would be difficult to convey in another way.  In
the same way, the stories of Jonah and the Whale or Daniel in the
Lions' Den teach us important lessons in the form of stories.

The second way of answering this question is to look at the meaning of
"inspired".  The Greek work is "theopneustos", which the NIV
translates as "God-breathed".  Where else does this concept appear in
Scripture?  In Genesis 2:7, God created Adam and "breathed into his
nostrils the breath of life".  It turns out that humans are also "God-
breathed", but we are by no means perfect.  So, if "God-breathed" does
not mean "perfect", what does it mean?

Is *all Scripture* inspired by God?

Thoughts?  Comments?

--
Bruce Alderman       baa@...
     http://www2.southwind.net/~baa
I don't take the Bible literally; I take it seriously.
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On 5 Dec 1998 04:19:19 -0000,
"Ken VanderLugt" <kvlugt@...> wrote:
> My own favorites are "Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time". (He
> covers much the same ground in "Jesus: A New Vision", for which
> there is a discussion booklet available), and "The God We Never
> Knew".

Thanks for the suggestions!

I got a copy of "The God we never knew" from the bookstore today. I've
read through the introduction, and I like what I've seen so far.

I'll have further updates as the story unfolds. . .

--
Bruce Alderman       baa@...
     http://www2.southwind.net/~baa
Christianity is not just a set of beliefs; it is a way of life.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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On Fri, 4 Dec 1998 21:01:34 -0500,
mgrello@... (Michael Grello) wrote:
>I would watch Tony Campolo.

Tony Campolo is one of the rare Christian writers who I have enjoyed
in all the thirteen years I've been a Christian.  He is evangelical
enough to have appealed to me in the early years, and liberal enough
to still appeal today.

He has some interesting comments on TV evangelism:

     [B]y trial and error most televangelists have found that what
     broadcasts well is a prosperity theology that prosies wealth and
     good fortune to all who believe. In the hands of the best
     televangelists, Christianity becomes the biggest and bestss
     giveaway shows on television. It is better than "Wheel of Fortune"
     because everyone can get in on the prizes. . . . Health, wealth
     and happines offered in small amazing segments is what programs
     well on television, so that is how television tends to portray
     Christianity.

     The medium, says [Marshall] McLuhan, is the message. And he is
     right. If the nature of the medium lends itself to simplistic
     amusement, then the Man of Sorrows with all his profundity must
     adapt when He comes across the television screen. It is not
     surprising that when Malcolm Muggeridge was asked how we can use
     television to broadcast the message of Christss, he simply
     answered, "You can't!" Television contradicts what Christianity is
     about in its deepest essence.

Nevertheless, Campolo concludes:

     Television is here to stay. Those who think we can escape its
     negative influences simply by turning off our sets ignore the
     reality that our whole culture is being molded by the medium.
     There is no escape. We cannot get away from television. We must
     learn to live with it -- and if possible -- use it in positive
     ways. Mr. Rogers learned to use it for kids. We ought to be at
     least half as creative in finding ways to use it for overtly
     religious broadcasting.

(Quoted from Tony Campolo, _20 hot potatoes Christians are afraid to
touch_).

Comments, anyone?

--
Bruce Alderman       baa@...
     http://www2.southwind.net/~baa
A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle.
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I am very impressed with your biblical scholarship, Bruce. How right you are in
pointing out how we have melded differing and contradictory accounts into one
seamless narrative and how few people realize it--even regular church-goers.

Last year I read a book by Raymond Brown, who is probably the most eminent
Catholic Bible scholar of his generation, called "An Adult Christ at Christmas",
a short but insightful book. He makes the point that during Jesus life there was
no suggestion of an immaculate conception. He points out the the first gospel to
be written (Mark) does not mention anything unusual about Jesus' birth and has
Jesus 'becoming divine' at his baptism. Matthew and Luke, written ten to twenty
hears later, had Jesus 'becoming divine' at his conception. And yes, John,
another twenty or so years later, has Jesus 'being' divine/God at the beginning
of time. The point being that as time went on, greater claims were made about
this man Jesus.

As for your question about what meaning we/I have found in the Christmas
stories, thanks for reminding me to give that some thought. I will save that for
a future post.
Later
Ken

All the signs are pointing to the unavoidable fact.  Christmas is
> almost here.
>
> Many of us will go to Christmas Eve services, where the Scriptures are
> woven together to tell the glorious Christmas story, of the virgin
> birth, the Roman census, the trip to Bethlehem, the shepherds and the
> three kings, Herod's decree, the flight to Egypt and subsequent return
> to Galilee, all foretold centuries earlier by the prophets of Israel.
>
> Unfortunately, modern scholarship tells a vastly different story.  A
> biologist will say that, although parthenogenesis is known among lower
> life forms, it does not occur in mammals, including humans.
>
> Historians tell us that Quirinius' census did not occur until some 10
> years after King Herod died, so *something* is out of place.
>
> The trip to Bethlehem is suspect, anyhow.  First, Quirinius' territory
> did not include Galilee.  If Joseph and Mary lived there (Luke's
> claim), they would have been exempt from the census.  It only applied
> to residents of Judea.  Which leads to the second problem: According
> to Matthew, Jesus' parents had a home in Bethlehem (Matt 2:11). There
> is no indication in Matthew that they were originally from Galilee.
>
> The "three kings" do not even appear in the Bible.  In Matthew's
> gospel they were astrologers, of unknown quanatity.
>
> When Joseph and Mary hear of Herod's death their first thought is to
> return to their home in Bethlehem.  But Matthew tells us that because
> Herod's son is ruling over Judea, they instead move to Galilee.
> Matthew neglects to tell us that another of Herod's sons is ruling
> Galilee.
>
> The prophecies are also problematic.  The famous verse in Isaiah
> (7:14) does not specifically mention a virgin in the original
> language.  It simply talks about a young woman, and in its original
> context, possibly refers to Isaiah's wife.  The verse from Hosea, "Out
> of Egypt I have called my son," refers to Moses and the Exodus.  The
> prophecy quoted in Matthew 2:23, "He will be called a Nazarene," does
> not even appear in the Hebrew Scriptures.
>
> What are we to make of the lovely story now?
>
> As far as I can see, there are three options:
>
> 1) We can dismiss the Bible as a collection of outdated mythology.
>
> 2) We can dismiss modern scholarship as anti-God.
>
> 3) We can seek a middle ground, a balance between faith and reason.
> We can strive to infuse this beautiful story with new meanings for the
> twenty-first century and beyond.
>
> Which brings me to the question:
>
> What meanings have y'all found in the Christmas story?
>
> --
> Bruce Alderman       baa@...
>     http://www2.southwind.net/~baa
> "Sacred cows make great hamburger."
>                    -- Tony Campolo
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Free Web-based e-mail groups -- http://www.eGroups.com
>
>
>



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Bruce, a couple of nights ago, you asked about Borg whom I had referred to (he
refers to himself as a "non-exclusivistic" and "non-literalistic"
Christian--terms which I find helpful). You asked what would be a good place to
start with Borg.

I recommend almost anything he has written.  Although some of his books are
written more for an academic audience and some for the lay reader, everything he
writes is readable.

My own favorites are "Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time". (He covers much
the same ground in "Jesus: A New Vision", for which there is a discussion
booklet available), and "The God We Never Knew".

Borg leads the reader in a gentle way (in contrast to Bishop Spong who likes to
beat his reader with a hammer) to a fresh and liberal understanding of the life
and meaning of Jesus (in "Meeting Jesus...") and of the 'history' of God (in
"The God We Never Knew".

In one of your posts, Bruce, you say (paraphrasing) that you don't try to
disparage literalism as much as render it irrelevant by find ing the deeper
meaning in the biblical stories. This is exactly what Borg does, and very
successfully.

Among the many fine points and distinctions that Borg makes is that the "point"
is not "belief" in God, but in developing a 'relationship' with God.

Reading Borg the first time was for me a truly epiphanous experience. On page
after page, I found myself thinking--YES!...this is what I've always
believed!...now I have a theological foundation and vocabulary to support what
I've always thought!. I am not a heretic and I am not alone!

If you decide to check him out, I'd love to hear what you think of him.

Ken
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I would watch Tony Campolo.  When I was younger, some of the religious
programming had a more liberal bend.  I really liked "Touched by an Angel"
(as you can tell from my web page), but this season they seem to have
adopted more conservative views.  Some of the TV shows that touch a
religious tone with me are "Star Trek: DS9", because I feel that one of the
characters (Col. Kira) exhibits a healthy, intelligent faith, and "Earth:
Final Conflict", because it takes a light handed approach to spirituality,
and exposes some of the attitudes we take for granted in religion.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Alderman [mailto:baa@...]
> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 9:45 PM
> To: kerygma@egroups.com
> Subject: [kerygma] Why is religious television dominated by
> conservatives?
>
>
> A book I am reading (_The Struggle for America's Soul_ by Robert
> Wuthnow) devotes an entire chapter to the influence of religious
> television on today's church.  As I read, the thought occurred to me
> that nearly every well-known TV evangelist is extremely conservative.
> Why is this so?  Is it because conservatives are more likely than
> liberals to watch religious programming?  Is it because the medium of
> television encourages a one-way flow of information, a format which is
> more acceptable to fundamentalist-type thinking?  Is is because, as
> conservatives often charge, liberals don't care about the Scriptures?
>
> How many of you would watch televised sermons or Bible study programs,
> if they were hosted by a leading liberal theologian?  Or are liberal
> theology and television incompatible?
>
> In a related matter, what is your opinion on some of the prime time TV
> shows with a religious bent?
>
> --
> Bruce Alderman       baa@...
>     http://www2.southwind.net/~baa
> Doubt is not the opposite of faith; it is an element of faith.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> FREE $50 in software for new NextCard Visa customers! Go get it!
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A book I am reading (_The Struggle for America's Soul_ by Robert
Wuthnow) devotes an entire chapter to the influence of religious
television on today's church.  As I read, the thought occurred to me
that nearly every well-known TV evangelist is extremely conservative.
Why is this so?  Is it because conservatives are more likely than
liberals to watch religious programming?  Is it because the medium of
television encourages a one-way flow of information, a format which is
more acceptable to fundamentalist-type thinking?  Is is because, as
conservatives often charge, liberals don't care about the Scriptures?

How many of you would watch televised sermons or Bible study programs,
if they were hosted by a leading liberal theologian?  Or are liberal
theology and television incompatible?

In a related matter, what is your opinion on some of the prime time TV
shows with a religious bent?

--
Bruce Alderman       baa@...
     http://www2.southwind.net/~baa
Doubt is not the opposite of faith; it is an element of faith.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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KERYGMA is an unmoderated list.  Any person can post to the list, even
those who are not subscribed.  Posters are expected to show respect to
those who have different viewpoints.  Polite disagreement is
encouraged; invective will not be tolerated.  Anyone who does not
behave civilly will be subject to discipline, including, if necessary,
removal from the list.

The list is provided as a free service by egroups.com.  Egroups will
occasionally attach an advertisement to the bottom of the message.
The appearance of these ads does not constitute an endorsement of the
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--
Bruce Alderman       baa@...
     http://www2.southwind.net/~baa
He died to take away your sins, not your mind.
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Someone sent this to me.  I thought it was worth sharing. . .


Kids' Letters to God

Dear God,
    In Sunday School they told us what You do.  Who does it when You are on
    vacation?  - Jane

Dear God,
    I think about You sometimes even when I'm not praying.  - Elliot

Dear God,
    Did You really mean "do unto others as they do unto you?"  Because if
    you did, then I'm going to fix my brother.  - Darla

Dear God,
    I didn't think orange went with purple until I saw the sunset You made
    on Tuesday.  - Margret

Dear God,
    I read the Bible.  What does "begat" mean?  Nobody will tell me. -
    Love, Allison

Dear God,
    Are you really invisible or is that a trick?  - Lucy

Dear God,
    Is it true my father won't get in Heaven if he uses his bowling words
    in the house?  - Anita

Dear God,
    Did you mean for the giraffe to look like that or was it an accident?
    - Norma

Dear God,
    Instead of letting people die and having to make new ones, why don't
    You just keep the ones You have now?  - Jane

Dear God,
    Who draws the lines around countries?  - Nan

Dear God,
    The bad people laughed at Noah - "You made an ark on dry land you
    fool".  But he was smart, he stuck with You.  That's what I would do.
    - Eddie

Dear God,
    I went to this wedding and they kissed right in church.  Is that okay?
    - Neil

Dear God,
    What does it mean You are a Jealous God?  I thought You had
    everything.  - Jane

Dear God,
    Thank You for the baby brother, but what I prayed for was a puppy. - Joyce

Dear God,
    Why is Sunday School on Sunday? I thought it was supposed to be our day
    of rest.  - Tom L.

Dear God,
    Please send me a pony.  I never asked for anything before, You can look
    it up. - Bruce

Dear God,
    If we come back as something - please don't let me be Jennifer Horton
    because I hate her.  - Denise

Dear God,
    My brother is a rat.  You should give him a tail.  Ha ha.  - Danny

Dear God,
    Maybe Cain and Abel would not kill each other so much if they had their
    own rooms.  It works with my brother.  - Larry

Dear God,
    I want to be just like my Daddy when I get big but not with so much
    hair all over.  - Sam

Dear God,
    You don't have to worry about me.  I always look both ways.  - Dean

Dear God,
    I bet it is very hard for You to love all of everybody in the whole
    world. There are only 4 people in our family and I can never do it. - Nan

Dear God,
    Of all the people who work for You, I like Noah and David the best. - Rob

Dear God,
    My brother told me about being born but it doesn't sound right.
    They're just kidding, aren't they?  - Marsha

Dear God,
    If You watch me in Church Sunday.  I'll show You my new shoes.  -
    Mickey

Dear God,
    I would like to live 900 years like the guy in the Bible.  - Love,
    Chris

Dear God,
    We read Thomas Edison made light.  But in school they said You did it.
    So, I bet he stoled Your idea.  Sincerely,  Donna

Dear God,
    I do not think anybody could be a better God.  Well, I just want You to
    know but I am not just saying that because You are God already. - Charles


--
Bruce Alderman       baa@...
     http://www2.southwind.net/~baa
And God said: E = «mvý - Zeý/r, and there was light!

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On 2 Dec 1998 02:38:53 -0000,
"Ken VanderLugt" <kvlugt@...> wrote:

> Bruce, I am particularly interested in your church affiliation.
> I'll fire a number of questions to you, and you can choose which
> (if any) you want to answer...why United Methodist?

The United Methodist Church places a very low emphasis on doctrine.
The primary focus is on the social gospel.  One statement from
membership class that really grabbed me was, "We believe theology is
something you live, not something you study."   The members range from
very conservative to very liberal, and all viewpoints are welcome.

> ...have you, and in what way do you express you "liberal Christian"
> beliefs in your church? ...what kind of reaction(s) do you get?

During discussions, I occasionally mention that I do not take the
Bible literally.  For example, in a discussion of the virgin birth
last Christmas, I explained that the birth stories were not written
from a biological standpoint.  From a theological standpoint, I
believe the virgin birth sets Jesus apart as a unique person -- he
didn't become the Christ by studying and obtaining enlightenment, he
was chosen from birth.  No one else could have filled that role.  But
from a physical standpoint, Jesus must have received chromosomes from
some male figure.  If God is purely spirit, then where did the DNA
come from?  It could have been miraculously placed in Mary's womb by
God, I suppose.  Or it could have come from natural sexual intercouse.
But that is not the issue for the gospel writers.  To focus on a flat
literal interpretation of these passages is to miss the deeper
meanings, the _real_ meanings of the Scriptures.

I also point out that the Bible writers themselves did not take the
Bible as literally as we are sometimes led to believe.  See especially
Galatians 4:21ff, where Paul explicitly states that the births of
Abraham's sons, Isaac and Ishmael, is an allegory.  Granted, Paul
probably believed it was historically true, but he looked past the
literal meaning to find the deeper meaning of the passage.

Reactions tend to range all the way from, "That makes sense," to, "And
you still call yourself a Christian?"

My aim is not to discredit a literal interpretation, but to render it
irrelevant by focusing on finding a deeper meaning.  The question I
try to answer while reading the Bible is, "What does this mean for my
life?"  The answer to that question can never be, "The Bible is
historically accurate."  I am not interested in whether this or that
passage can be confirmed by archaeology.  My faith does not come from
digging in the dirt.

--
Bruce Alderman       baa@...
     http://www2.southwind.net/~baa
The world is a beautiful book, for those who can read it.
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On 2 Dec 1998 02:20:00 -0000,
"Ken VanderLugt" <kvlugt@...> wrote:
> > Interesting. What caused you to move back from UU to mainline
> > Protestantism?

> A number of things...primary it was my experience in two different
> U-U churches (the first shut down when it's active members were too
> few to keep it going) that liberal Christians were neither
> understood nor completely integrated into the life of these
> churches.

I see. I haven't had much direct experience with U-U.  There was a guy
at the last place I worked who was a Unitarian, but I had trouble
talking theology with him.  At the time, _The Celestine Prophecy_ was
on the bestseller lists, and he loaned me a copy of it.  He seemed to
believe the story was factual.  He was disappointed when I told him I
didn't take it literally.

> . . .to consider that there can be such a thing as a
> "non-literalistic" and "non-exclusivistic" (to use Borg's terms)

I need to read some of Borg's stuff sometime.  Can you suggest a good
place to start?

> Most U-Us have long ago "thrown the baby out with the bath water",
> I think.

From your description, it sounds like it.

> It seems as if we are the only ones posting at the moment, but from
> little acorns...etc., etc.

I accidentally sent the wrong subscription address to Mike Grello
(sorry, Mike!), but he should be with us now.  And today I sent out an
advertisement on soc.religion.christian, so I hope we'll get some
people from there.  (New subscribers, that's your cue!)

--
Bruce Alderman       baa@...
     http://www2.southwind.net/~baa
Christianity is not just a set of beliefs; it is a way of life.
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All the signs are pointing to the unavoidable fact.  Christmas is
almost here.

Many of us will go to Christmas Eve services, where the Scriptures are
woven together to tell the glorious Christmas story, of the virgin
birth, the Roman census, the trip to Bethlehem, the shepherds and the
three kings, Herod's decree, the flight to Egypt and subsequent return
to Galilee, all foretold centuries earlier by the prophets of Israel.

Unfortunately, modern scholarship tells a vastly different story.  A
biologist will say that, although parthenogenesis is known among lower
life forms, it does not occur in mammals, including humans.

Historians tell us that Quirinius' census did not occur until some 10
years after King Herod died, so *something* is out of place.

The trip to Bethlehem is suspect, anyhow.  First, Quirinius' territory
did not include Galilee.  If Joseph and Mary lived there (Luke's
claim), they would have been exempt from the census.  It only applied
to residents of Judea.  Which leads to the second problem: According
to Matthew, Jesus' parents had a home in Bethlehem (Matt 2:11). There
is no indication in Matthew that they were originally from Galilee.

The "three kings" do not even appear in the Bible.  In Matthew's
gospel they were astrologers, of unknown quanatity.

When Joseph and Mary hear of Herod's death their first thought is to
return to their home in Bethlehem.  But Matthew tells us that because
Herod's son is ruling over Judea, they instead move to Galilee.
Matthew neglects to tell us that another of Herod's sons is ruling
Galilee.

The prophecies are also problematic.  The famous verse in Isaiah
(7:14) does not specifically mention a virgin in the original
language.  It simply talks about a young woman, and in its original
context, possibly refers to Isaiah's wife.  The verse from Hosea, "Out
of Egypt I have called my son," refers to Moses and the Exodus.  The
prophecy quoted in Matthew 2:23, "He will be called a Nazarene," does
not even appear in the Hebrew Scriptures.

What are we to make of the lovely story now?

As far as I can see, there are three options:

1) We can dismiss the Bible as a collection of outdated mythology.

2) We can dismiss modern scholarship as anti-God.

3) We can seek a middle ground, a balance between faith and reason.
We can strive to infuse this beautiful story with new meanings for the
twenty-first century and beyond.

Which brings me to the question:

What meanings have y'all found in the Christmas story?

--
Bruce Alderman       baa@...
     http://www2.southwind.net/~baa
"Sacred cows make great hamburger."
                    -- Tony Campolo

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Welcome to KERYGMA!  I hope this list will be an oasis in the vast
> theological desert that is the Internet.

Ah! Sorry, if I had read this post I would have known something about you. Now
that I think about it, I recall this brief bio from your homepage or from a
brief online exchange awhile back.

Bruce, I am particularly interested in your church affiliation. I'll fire a
number of questions to you, and you can choose which (if any) you want to
answer...why United Methodist? ...have you, and in what way do you express you
"liberal Christian" beliefs in your church?...what kind of reaction(s) do you
get?...are you in a leadership position (elder, deacon, SS teacher, etc) in the
church? Do you ever "debate" with others about your beliefs?

This stuff interests me because I am rather torn between electing to be visible
and vocal about what I believe, thinking that others may be where I was 10 years
ago (thinking that I had to believe ALL OF IT or none of it), and perhaps I can
lead them to a point where "critical thinking is not incompatible with
belief"....on the other hand, I do not want appear to be "attacking" someone
else's traditional beliefs nor do I want to disturb someone from the "religion"
that "works" for them. Ideally, one would be able to "sense" what kind of "new"
thinking each person is ready for, but I'm not sure I am always able to do that
very well.

I would appreciate your hearing of your experienace and your thought.
Thanks
Ken
>
> I'm a liberal Christian living in Wichita, Kansas.  My primary
> theological influences are Paul Tillich, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and
> J. A. T. Robinson. I grew up agnostic, became a Christian in high
> school (thirteen years ago today, in fact), and gradually moved from
> conservative Christianity to liberal Christianity during my college
> years.  I'm presently a member of East Heights United Methodist Church
> in Wichita.
>
> Christian liberalism can mean different things to different people,
> whether it be preaching the "social gospel" to those in need, or
> re-interpreting the old biblical stories.  I hope this list can offer
> something for everyone.
>
> --
> Bruce Alderman       baa@...
>     http://www2.southwind.net/~baa
> He died to take away your sins, not your mind.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Free Web-based e-mail groups -- http://www.eGroups.com
>
>
>



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On 30 Nov 1998 04:39:30 -0000,
> "Ken VanderLugt" <kvlugt@...> wrote:
> > I am a liberal Christian living in the spiritual desert of NW
> > Indiana, presently a Presbyterian--formerly
> > Unitarian-Universalist...raised a Calvinist...
>
> Interesting.  What caused you to move back from UU to mainline
> Protestantism?

A number of things...primary it was my experience in two different U-U churches
(the first shut down when it's active members were too few to keep it going)
that liberal Christians were neither understood nor completely integrated into
the life of these churches. The last U-U church I attended was dominated by
Wiccans (or Pagans) and secular humanists, with the usual mix of confused
"new-age" thinking. Perhaps it was my failure to articulate to them the
distinction between fundamentalist Christianity (which is so dominant in this
area) and liberal Christianity. Most U-Us in this area, although broadly
tolerant of virtually every other "religious" movement under the sun, refuse to
consider that there can be such a thing as a "non-literalistic" and
"non-exclusivistic" (to use Borg's terms) understanding of the Bible and the
Christian tradition that fits in very nicely with U-U statements of belief. Most
U-Us have long ago "thrown the baby out with the bath water", I think.

When I found a Presbyterian church with an open-minded (if not especially
liberal) pastor, I decided to join it. The Presby church also had a choir which
allowed me to sing. I have found that at this point in my life, participating in
traditional church music is more spiritually nourishing for me than any other
form of worship.

Enough--for now, anyway--about myself. Bruce, tell me something about yourself.
It seems as if we are the only ones posting at the moment, but from little
acorns...etc., etc.
Later,
Ken
>
> > casual student of the work of the Jesus Seminar...admirer of Marcus
> > Borg and John Spong...and looking forward to this forum.
>
> Good to have you here!
>
> --
> Bruce Alderman       baa@...
>     http://www2.southwind.net/~baa
> A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Free Web-based e-mail groups -- http://www.eGroups.com
>
>
>



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On 30 Nov 1998 04:39:30 -0000,
"Ken VanderLugt" <kvlugt@...> wrote:
> I am a liberal Christian living in the spiritual desert of NW
> Indiana, presently a Presbyterian--formerly
> Unitarian-Universalist...raised a Calvinist...

Interesting.  What caused you to move back from UU to mainline
Protestantism?

> casual student of the work of the Jesus Seminar...admirer of Marcus
> Borg and John Spong...and looking forward to this forum.

Good to have you here!

--
Bruce Alderman       baa@...
     http://www2.southwind.net/~baa
A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Welcome to KERYGMA!  I hope this list will be an oasis in the vast
theological desert that is the Internet.

I'm a liberal Christian living in Wichita, Kansas.  My primary
theological influences are Paul Tillich, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and
J. A. T. Robinson. I grew up agnostic, became a Christian in high
school (thirteen years ago today, in fact), and gradually moved from
conservative Christianity to liberal Christianity during my college
years.  I'm presently a member of East Heights United Methodist Church
in Wichita.

Christian liberalism can mean different things to different people,
whether it be preaching the "social gospel" to those in need, or
re-interpreting the old biblical stories.  I hope this list can offer
something for everyone.

--
Bruce Alderman       baa@...
     http://www2.southwind.net/~baa
He died to take away your sins, not your mind.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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subscribe
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For openers, I would like to thank Bruce for taking the time to put together
this e-group, although I must say I never heard of e-groups before you sent me
the link. It seems to be a sort of private "invitation only" newsgroup which I
am familiar with and hopefully I'll get used to this system quickly.

Since the group is just getting started, I will be brief by way of introduction.
I am a liberal Christian living in the spiritual desert of NW Indiana, presently
a Presbyterian--formerly Unitarian-Universalist...raised a Calvinist...casual
student of the work of the Jesus Seminar...admirer of Marcus Borg and John
Spong...and looking forward to this forum.
More later.
Ken
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Hello everyone in KERYGMA land!

To get things started, here are a couple of subjects to discuss. What
do you all think?

1. "Christianity must change or die!"  The title of John Shelby
Spong's latest book says it all.  Is traditional Christianity on its
deathbed, or is Spong exaggerating?  Spong is certainly willing to
confront the literalists directly.  Does this aggressive approach help
or hinder liberal theology?

2. Hate groups.  From skinheads to militias to the Rev Fred Phelps,
many people have misused the Bible to justify their hatred.  How do we
respond to such groups?  How do we recover the biblical message of
love for humanity that Jesus preached?  How do we speak reasonably
with non-Christians who have come to associate the Bible with some of
the worst elements of society?

--
Bruce Alderman       baa@...
     http://www2.southwind.net/~baa
Doubt is not the opposite of faith; it is an element of faith.
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Welcome to KERYGMA, the mailing list for Liberal Christianity!

This is just a quick message to set some of the ground rules for this
list.  For the time being, the list will be unmoderated.  Any person
can post to the list, even those who are not subscribed.  Posters are
expected to show respect to those who have different viewpoints.
Polite disagreement is encouraged; invective will not be tolerated.
Anyone who does not behave civilly will be subject to discipline,
including, if necessary, removal from the list.

The list is provided as a free service by egroups.com.  Egroups will
sometimes attach an advertisement to the bottom of the message.  The
appearance of these ads does not constitute an endorsement of the
product by either the list owner or the poster.

The list archives can be found at http://www.egroups.com/list/kerygma

Questions or comments can be sent to me at kerygma-owner@egroups.com

--
Bruce Alderman       baa@...
     http://www2.southwind.net/~baa
He died to take away your sins, not your mind.
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KERYGMA
                 A mailing list for liberal Christians


The proliferation of newsgroups and mailing lists dedicated to the
promotion of conservative Christianity has prompted many to ask, "Is
there a group for liberal Christians?" I have searched in vain to find
one. Because I feel strongly that such a forum is needed, I have
decided to create KERYGMA.

The purpose of KERYGMA is to provide a forum for liberal Christians to
discuss their faith in a suppportive environment.

Topics of discussion will include, but not be limited to:

* Bible Understanding: How do we interpret the Scriptures? Is the
Bible inspired by God? If so, in what way? What does the Bible have to
say to the church in the 21st century?

* Social Justice: This is one of the Bible's major themes. In what
ways can we put our faith into practice by helping the poor and needy?

* Faith in the modern world: What is the proper relationship between
faith and science? Between church and state? Between Christianity and
world religions? How do we put our faith into practice in everyday
life?

* Conservatives vs Liberals: How do we reject the phony gospel of the
Fundamentalists, while still loving them as God has commanded us to
love all human beings?


KERYGMA is a place where liberal Christians can discuss beliefs and
values without being attacked on the one side by Bible literalists who
think we are compromising our faith, or on the other side by atheists
and agnostics who think we are desperately clinging to ancient
mythologies.  KERYGMA is dedicated to those who are willing to examine
the roots of Christianity, reject the accumulated baggage of twenty
centuries, and rebuild our faith on the firm foundation of Christ.

--
Bruce Alderman       baa@...
     http://www2.southwind.net/~baa
I don't take the Bible literally; I take it seriously.
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