Dear Mark,
sorry, I read Paul’s text and scrolled to the end of the discussion
and found your suscription. So my intervention was not to you, but to
Paul. As you know I think that also the Gospel of Mark is dependent
from early “John”. So I am in this respect somehow with Paul, seeing
a relationship between the two, but the other way round. Sorry for my
superficial reading of your discussion. May be, I should organize
once a symposion on the Prologue?
To both of you in friedship all good wishes
Peter from Salzburg



Am 12.01.2007 um 02:05 schrieb Matson, Mark ((Academic)):

> Peter:
>
> Glad you joined into Paul's and my discussion (and Peter Kirby).
> And to Paul, I apologize for dropping the ball on our discussion.
> I took a week off for Mexico, and then the semester has begun
> again, and I have simply been unable to find the time to take up
> our discussion of relationships.
>
> But I couldn't help jump in here, Peter, since I think something
> has been lost in translation. Perhaps you were responding to Paul
> Anderson (all the quoted sections below are Paul's).
>
> I haven't ever proposed that John's prologue is a very late and
> final addition to John.  If you read my response to Paul, I have
> been primarily arguing that John is early and independent. And,
> furthermore, I have always assumed that the prologue is deeply
> connected to the John we have.  While I do wonder sometimes about
> some early signs material, I am not even sure about that anymore (i
> used to be more of a proponent of a signs gospel in some form)-- in
> part because there is such a unity of thought and language.  john
> works for me as such a rhetorically unified document.  And in fact
> this is part of the discussion that Paul and I are having, and you
> may have put your finger on part of difference:
>
> I tend to think of John as early and independent, and somewhat
> nervous about saying too much about internal layers or segments.
> So when I approach relations with the Synoptics I tend to simply
> assert John is independent of Mark, although I have argued that
> Luke shows signs of knowledge of John (as you know, a reversal of
> the normal relationship).
>
> Paul, on the other hand, sees the relationship in material as more
> indicative of some earlier relationship between John and the
> synoptic material, and I think (Paul, help me here) sees some
> indication of this more complex relationship in some editing and
> modification of John's gospel.
>
> Now, having said all that -- I am less sure that we can go so far
> as to argue that John's prologue represents the earliest
> formulation, and that we can somehow connect all that to various
> variations of Christology in the first 2 centuries.
>
>
> Mark Matson
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Peter
> Hofrichter
> Sent: Thu 1/11/2007 11:00 AM
> To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] The dependence of John on one or more
> Synoptics?
>
>
>
> Dear Mark,
> the foundamental mistake in your theory which I else appreciate very
> much is the wide spread error that the "Prologue of John" is a very
> late and final addition to the Gospel of John. No, the prologue is
> not at all a summary of the Gospel. Its appoach was already outdated
> when the Gospels started to be written. It was the a very early if
> not the earliest Christian text at all, still totally in the line of
> Philo and still thinking in a way of proto-Arianism and
> subordination. It is not by chance that Arius almost three centuries
> later has derived his heresy of subordination from the Logos-concept
> of Prologue of John (and OT-texts). Contrary to this the Nicean
> theologians argued with the trunk of Gospel of John: "Me and the
> Fater are one" or "Who sees me sees the Father". Alredy in the first
> century the text of the so-called Prologue - althogh highly esteemed
> - must almost immediately have become obsolete and should therefore
> be reinterpreted in the sense that Jesus shoud be understood as God
> himself and the Logos as his spoken word of revelation. Exaxtly this
> was the purpose of the Gospel of John, and this line was then
> absolutely followed and maintained by the whole New Testament
> (Compare not only John, but also Mark in his parable of the sower).
> This line came to an heretical exaggeration and end in the heresy of
> Noetus and his Patripassianism: If Father and Son are one the Father
> himself has suffered.  To fight such deviate Modalism of Noetus,
> Sabellius and Callistus the Logos-Chistology was re-dicovered and
> restored after the middle of the second cantury by Justinus Martyr
> who spoke of the Logos as a Second God, by Irenaeus and explicitely
> by Hippolytus of Rome. The consequence was lastly a rennaissance of
> subordination-Christology and finally the heresy of Arius. Therefore
> in the Creed of Arius and Euzoius Jesus is called emphatcally the God
> Logos, whereas the Creed of Nicea (and of Nicea-Constantinople} does
> not mention the term Logos at all (but Monogenes, God from God, Light
> from Light ...) Exactly the same controversy must have taken place
> the first time already in the middle of the first century, and its
> witness in the Gospel of John.
> Thanks and all good wishes
> Peter Hofrichter
>
>
>
> Am 12.12.2006 um 02:26 schrieb Matson, Mark ((Academic)):
>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Paul Anderson
>> Sent: Sun 12/10/2006 2:07 AM
>> To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: RE: [John_Lit] The dependence of John on one or more
>> Synoptics?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks, Peter, here are some of the highlights from my perspective:
>>
>> a) In several works, Johannine dependence on Mark, or other
>> traditions is asserted. In particular, the Leuven Symposium of the
>> early 90's, and also Tom Brodie's works argue this case, among
>> others. Andrew Lincoln reasserts Barrett's view along these lines.
>> None of the contacts between John and Mark are identical, though,
>> so contact might be plausible, but dependence is less so.
>>
>> b)In Moody Smith's revised edition of his book on the subject,
>> however, he reasserts his conviction that John is not dependent on
>> Mark or the other synoptics...and yet, in his added chapter where
>> his own views are laid out, he holds open the possibility for
>> Johannine familiarity with them, so it is a non-isolated form of
>> independence. Raymond Brown's new introduction includes something
>> like this, in that he poses the possibility of "cross-influence"
>> between John and the other traditions. In my own theory I call the
>> pre-Markan contact with the early Johannine tradition
>> "interfluential" contacts.
>>
>> c) Several of the essays in the Hofrichter collection pose a view
>> of John as having been the first of the Gospels, which is why it is
>> different (Hofrichter, Berger). In my view, though, Johannine
>> primitivity--which I believe was the case--does not imply a
>> finalized primitivity. John appears to contain some later material
>> as well as earlier material.
>>
>> d) Several works have been written recently (Matson, Shellard, and
>> myself) arguing John's influence upon the Lukan tradition. Matson
>> argues for written John's influence, whereas I argue for John's
>> impact on Luke before it is rendered in a written form.
>>
>> e) A significant work that actually changed my thinking on the
>> matter was Ian Mackay's monograph on Mark 6 and 8 and John 6. In
>> this book, he argues for John's familiarity with the basic
>> structure of Mark, and yet familiarity does not imply dependence.
>> What I have done is to combine his view (bolstered by Richard
>> Bauckham's work on John's having been written for audiences
>> familiar with Mark) with my earlier theory of pre-Markan and early
>> Johannine "interfluentiality" between the oral stages of their
>> traditions.
>>
>> f) Johannine-Matthean contact imply a set of interfluential
>> dialogues, especially over matters of church governance and
>> organization. Emerging from my dialogue with Graham Stanton in the
>> first volume of the Review of Biblical Literature, Stanton helped
>> me see something: it might not have been a Johannine engagement
>> with a Matthean text directly that was here involved, but the
>> Johannine evangelist's (or editor's) engagement with what someone
>> like Diotrephes might have been doing with the Matthean text that
>> may have been at stake.
>>
>> Anyway, these are some of the significant works, in my view, which
>> make theories of lumping Johannine relations with "the Synoptics"
>> as though they were a monolithic traditional unit inadequate.
>> Contacts may have been more occasional and unsystematic, so a more
>> individuated analysis is required. This being the case, below is a
>> draft of the summary of my emerging theory of interfluentiality
>> between John and the other traditions which will be published soon
>> in a new introduction to the third printing of The Christology of
>> the Fourth Gospel (2007). The particulars are spelled out in my
>> essay in the Hofrichter volume (2002) and in The Fourth Gospel and
>> the Quest for Jesus (2006).
>>
>> Paul Anderson
>>
>> ***
>> While John's tradition appears to be autonomous, representing an
>> independent Jesus tradition, developing in its own individuated way
>> over seven decades before its finalization, it does not appear to
>> be isolated or out of contact with other traditions. Contact,
>> however, does not imply dependence, nor does influence imply a
>> singular direction of movement. Likewise, familiarity may have
>> evoked dissonance as well as consonance, and it is highly unlikely
>> that the relation between John and other traditions was uniform. It
>> may have even been different between different phases and forms of
>> a particular tradition, such as Mark's. Therefore, the following
>> components are integral elements of a new synthesis regarding
>> John's dialogical autonomy and interfluential relationships with
>> other gospel traditions. In that sense, John represents a "bi-
>> optic" alternative to the Markan gospels, as both complementarity
>> and dialogical engagement may plausibly be inferred as follows:
>>
>> a)John's Dialogical Autonomy Develops in ways Parallel to other
>> Traditions. Parallel to the pre-Markan tradition, the early
>> Johannine tradition developed in its own autonomous set of ways.
>> First impressions developed into Johannine paraphrases, crafted to
>> meet the needs of early audiences and suited to the personal
>> ministry of the Johannine evangelist, just as would have been the
>> case with the human source(s) of the pre-Markan tradition.
>>
>> b)Interfluential Contacts between the pre-Markan and early
>> Johannine Traditions. Early contacts between these two traditions
>> created a set of commonly shared buzz-words, references and themes,
>> explaining their non-identical similarities in the later texts.
>> Especially within the oral stages of their traditions, influence
>> may have crossed in both directions, making "interfluence" a
>> plausible inference.
>>
>> c)Augmentation and Correction of Written Mark. After Mark was
>> written, at least some of it became familiar to the Johannine
>> evangelist, evoking a complementary project. This explains some of
>> the Markan echoes in John, and also some of John's departures from
>> Mark. Some of them may reflect knowing intentionality (Jn. 20:30),
>> as the first edition of John was plausibly the second written
>> gospel. Therefore, differences are not factors of a three-against-
>> one majority; rather, John and Mark deserve consideration as "the
>> Bi-Optic Gospels."
>>
>> d)John's Formative Impact upon Luke. During the oral stages of the
>> Johannine tradition, some of its material came to influence Luke's
>> tradition. This explains the fact that at least three dozen times
>> Luke departs from Mark and sides with John. Because many of John's
>> features are not followed, the Johannine influence upon Luke is
>> unlikely to have taken pace in written form but probably reflects
>> Lukan familiarity with the Johannine oral tradition.
>>
>> e)John's Influence upon the Q Tradition? Not implausible is the
>> likelihood that the contacts between several Q passages and John
>> imply early Johannine influences upon the Q tradition. Especially
>> the "bolt out of the Johannine blue" points to such a possibility.
>>
>> f)Johannine Preaching (and some writing) Continues. Following the
>> first edition of the Johannine Gospel, the Beloved Disciple
>> continues to preach and teach, and possibly even to write. The
>> fleshly suffering of Jesus becomes an example to emulate for
>> Christians facing hardship under the reign of Domitian (81-96 CE),
>> and the sustaining/guiding work of the Holy Spirit receives a
>> timely emphasis.
>>
>> g)Matthean and Johannine Traditions Engage in an Interfluential Set
>> of Dialogues. Especially on matters of church governance, the
>> Matthean and Johannine traditions appear to have been engaged in a
>> series of dialogues over how the risen Lord continues to lead the
>> church. They also reinforced each other in their outreach to Jewish
>> audiences over Jesus' agency as the Jewish Messiah.
>>
>> h)The Johannine Epistles Were Written by the Elder. During this
>> time (85-95 CE) the Johannine Elder wrote the Johannine Epistles,
>> calling for loving unity, corporate solidarity, willingness to
>> suffer for the faith, and challenging the inhospitality of
>> Diotrephes and his kin. The Johannine Epistles were thus written
>> before and after the Johannine Gospel.
>>
>> i)The Johannine Gospel was Supplemented and Finalized by the
>> Johannine Elder. After the death of the Beloved Disciple, the Elder
>> added the Prologue and other material, circulating it around 100 CE
>> as the witness of the Beloved Disciple, "whose testimony is true."
>>
>> j)The Spiritual Gospel Poses a Bi-Optic Alternative to the Somatic
>> Gospels. While Matthew and Luke built upon Mark, John built around
>> Mark. As an independent Jesus tradition developed theologically,
>> however, the Johannine and Markan traditions all contribute to
>> Gospel christological studies, as well as quests for the historical
>> Jesus in bi-optic perspective.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Peter Kirby
>> Sent: Sat 12/9/2006 6:49 AM
>> To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: [John_Lit] The dependence of John on one or more Synoptics?
>>
>> What has been written on this in, say, the last five years or so?
>> I am
>> trying to do some research in this area, but not all my references
>> are
>> up to date.
>>
>> --
>> Peter Kirby <peterkirby@...>
>> Student, CSU Fullerton
>>
>>
>>
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Dear Colleagues,

Apologies for the short timeline, but I'm looking for proposals within the next
week or so on either of two subjects, to be presented in the New Testament and
Hellenistic Religions Section of the Pacific Northwest AAR/ASOR/SBL meetings at
the University of Lethbridge in Alberta, Canada (May 2-4, 2007).

First, I need one more reviewer for a review panel on The Fourth Gospel and the
Quest for Jesus (T&T Clark, 2006).

Second, I'd like to have one or two more papers on
philosophic/literary/theological readings of John (especially applying the
approaches of the likes of Riceour, Gadamer, Ellul, Kristeva, etc.) to an
interdisciplinary reading of the Johannine text.

I'll be finalizing the program next week, so if interested, send me an e-mail at
panderso@..., or give me a phone call at 503-554-2651.

Thanks so much!

Paul Anderson
Chair, New Testament and Hellenistic Religions Section, Pacific Northwest
AAR/ASOR/SBL
Professor of Biblical and Quaker Studies
414 N. Meridian
George Fox University
Newberg, OR 97132


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Listers,



I have posted the following to the Synoptic List but it also concerns this list.



I have just completed a book, hinted at a couple of months ago here, on the
Synoptic Problem. The book is titled 'The Synoptic Problem: A Johannine
Solution.' This is a new approach to the SP which, as the title indicates,
includes John in the mix. Not only does John provide the clues to the solution
but is, itself, in the mix. It is closest to the Two or Four Source Hypotheses
but is neither of those.



The solution presupposes that the Revelation of John was given before any of the
gospels were written; this I have argued elsewhere, here I will only state it.
Below is a brief account of the writing of the gospels; anything more can be
discussed in additional posts. In short, the solution as I see it is as follows.



After the Revelation was given in 62, the Gospel of Mark was the first gospel to
be written. It was written (mid-late 64 - with Peter being primarily responsible
for it) and distributed widely and speedily (by Mark: Rome to Alexandria via
Corinth, Ephesus, Antioch and Jeruslaem) to encourage the believers during what
the apostles believed would be the last of the last days. They believed that
Nero would be unveiled as the beast whom Jesus would destroy before ushering in
the new heavens and the new earth. When Nero died and Jesus had not returned,
the Church faced a great crisis. If the apostles had been wrong about the timing
of Christ's appearing; what else were they wrong about? The reliability of the
Christian gospel itself was threatened.



When John was released from Patmos soon after Nero's death he called a council
at Ephesus (September/October 68). Attending were the remaining apostles (I
suspect around six) and other eyewitnesses and leaders of the Church. That
council realized that the Church might outlast the apostles and other
eyewitnesses who, until this time, had been the keepers and tellers of the
stories about Jesus. This meant that those who had been guardians of the oral
traditions had to commit them to writing to ensure that they would still be
available for the continuing Church. There were two reasons for committing what
they had taught to writing. Firstly, those things needed to be recorded for the
continuing Church. Secondly, something had to be written quickly to encourage
the believers at this critical time. What the council resolved to do was to
expand Mark, the gospel with which the whole Church was now familiar.



Following the council, then, those who had been eyewitnesses began to verify and
collate those things which they had been teaching until this time. Once that
collection (effectively Q) was complete they began adding it to the Markan
structure. This expansion I have called AEEMark (Apostles and Eyewitnesses
Expansion of Mark). After proceeding for some time, however, for a number of
reasons, what was to have been a  comprehensive and chronologically ordered
gospel was abandoned. In its place, the gathering produced the shorter and more
exhortative Gospel of John. John, then, had first use of the material the
apostles' had collated (Q). It was completed in late 68 (October or, at the
latest, November).



Once John was completed and while it was being copied and distributed, what
remained of the apostles' recollections was divided up between Matthew and Luke,
each of whom would produce lesser but still substantial expansions of Mark.
Matthew and Luke agreed on what each should use uniquely, the remainder both
would use to ensure that between the three later gospels, nothing was omitted of
what the apostles and others had collated. However, both men were free to adapt
the material to fit the particular readerships targeted by their gospels.



Matthew and Luke returned to their respective homes to write. Both had copies of
Mark and John as they wrote and neither needed to duplicate what they knew was
already contained in the latter. Similarly, while they used the Markan
framework, they were not compelled to include all of the shorter gospel because
it would also continue to circulate in its own right. The last two gospels may
have been completed by the end of 68 but certainly would have been by early 69.
(Luke would have gone on to complete Acts by mid 69).



It was not considered necessary to preserve Q because all of it was contained in
one or more of the three later gospels.



Sincerely,



Kym Smith

St Luke's Anglican Church

Adelaide

South Australia

khs@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I recently had a conversation with my sister (a scientist) in which she asked me
how I could od any research without high-speed Internet service (I have
dial-up).  I said that most of what I need is in paper format.  But it got me
thinking.  So now I'm asking those who are more computer-savvy than I am: What's
out there?  What online resources are of most interest to NT scholars?  Which
websites have the best links?  Thanks.

Elizabeth Danna

It is often said that Mandaean literature influenced the Gospel (though some say
the influence must be the other way because Mandaean literature is too late). 
My question is, how widely read was the Mandaean material?  Would the Greek or
Roman "Man in the street" have recognised a reference to it if he heard it?

On a related note - I 'm looking into Greco-Roman reader response to the
predicated "I am" sayings.  What would it mean to a Gentile to hear Jesus saying
"I am the bread of life", etc.?  Has any work been done on this?  Thanks.

Elizabeth Danna

Hi, Elizabeth.  Good to hear from you again!

   For Johannine resources, have you seen my website:  http://johannine.org/ ?

   For broader biblical resources, again there's one of mine (with lots of links
to other sites, as well as original materials): 
http://catholic-resources.org/Bible/
   or even more links at Prof. Mark Goodacre's "NT Gateway": 
http://www.ntgateway.com/

   Have fun browsing!
   Felix



Elizabeth Danna <ejdanna@...> wrote:

I recently had a conversation with my sister (a scientist) in which she asked me
how I could od any research without high-speed Internet service (I have
dial-up). I said that most of what I need is in paper format. But it got me
thinking. So now I'm asking those who are more computer-savvy than I am: What's
out there? What online resources are of most interest to NT scholars? Which
websites have the best links? Thanks.

Elizabeth Danna






~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Felix Just, S.J., Ph.D.
SCU Jesuit Community
500 El Camino Real
Santa Clara, CA 95053-1600
http://catholic-resources.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

---------------------------------
The fish are biting.
  Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks, Elizabeth, theories of Mandaean origins of Johannine material have
dwindled significantly since the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Up until the
middle of the 20th century, it was often assumed that dualistic thought in the
NT must have been Hellenistic and perhaps Gnostic, so given the Johannine
connections with some Mandaean literature, the assumption was that an earlier
form of Mandaean thought might have been the basis for John's distinctive
revelation-sayings material. Bultmann's connecting also of John the Baptist with
the inferred origin of the Johannine sayings conjectured a proto-Mandaean
baptistic worship cult of which the Johannine evangelist was a member before he
became a follower of Jesus. After all, some Mandaean literature also presents
John the Baptist as a hero. That is why it was inferred that the I-Am sayings in
John had a Gnostic origin. Moody Smith's Composition and Order of the Fourth
Gospel lays out much of this lucidly.

In order to argue this thesis fully, however, Bultmann sketched an
overly-complex theory of textual displacement and wrong re-ordering by the
Redactor, allowing the modern scholar license to "restore" the order of the
Johannine text, alleviating a few problematic transitions, but more pervasively,
functioning to "reveal" the "original" appearance of strophic revelation
sayings, being made to seem like a Mandaean revelation-sayings source.
Bultmann's student, Heinz Becker, worked much of this out, which Bultmann then
built upon in his own work and later published after Becker's untimely death (in
the war, I believe). Assuming, though, that there were ten textual displacements
in John 6 alone, and each of them was both "unmotivated" (accidental) and
falling precisely between sentences (an average of 80 Greek characters per
sentence) and you have odds of 1:80 to the 10th power of this happening.
Rationalists will therefore find this hard to believe. While the signs-source
hypothesis has fared a bit better, sayings-source hypotheses have fallen on hard
times--primarily because of the relative dearth of evidence. Also, the pervasive
connection of sign and discourse together make it all the more improbable that
connections between these were late and of disparate origins, rather than more
intrinsic to the Johannine tradition, proper.

Given the considerable dualism in Qumran, however, the attribution of Johannine
dualism and revelation sayings to Hellenistic origins rather than Jewish ones
has fallen by the wayside. Hengel's book on the inferred Hellenistic background
of the NT put more than one nail in that coffin, although no one can deny the
Hellenistic setting of first century Judaism. John's Jewishness has thus been
demonstrated compellingly over the last half century, and the works of Brown,
Barrett, Martyn, and others make that clear. Nonetheless, a Hellenistic setting
and audience is likely for the final crafting and presentation of the Johannine
Gospel, so your reader-response questions are on the right track. In my
judgment, though, I see the antichristic rejection of the flesh of Jesus in the
Johannine Epistles not as Gnosticism, but as Hellenistic Christians whose
Christology is docetic. After they get expelled from Johannine and other
Jewish-Christian communities they may have evolved into second-century Christian
Gnosticism, eventually taking Johannine motifs with them into Mandaean strains
of development, but that is probably later still. I therefore think it is a
mistake to infer any Gnostic origination of John's content; all of it can be
readily explained as a Jewish tradition finalized in a Hellenistic setting.

Bread of Life and Living Water would have been welcome metaphors for Jewish and
Gentile audiences alike, so the culture-spanning reach of John's material would
have had a broad appeal. What I have argued at some length is going on in John
6, in the appeal to ingest the flesh and blood of Jesus, is not an invitation to
a rite, but a calling to martyrological faithfulness if required by the truth.
In that sense, it is parallel to Jesus' question to the sons of Zebedee in the
Synoptics as to whether they are willing to drink the cup of Jesus and to be
baptized with his baptism. It is the martyrological association that posed a
scandal to the disciples, not because they misunderstood the metaphor, but
because they caught full well the reference to the Way of the Cross (6:51),
leading some of them to abandon Jesus and walk with him no longer. Some
excellent essays on John 6 can be found in Culpepper's collection, Critical
Readings of John 6 (just out this year in paperback!), and I infer at least four
crises in the Johannine situation that are mirrored in the discussants'
engagements with Jesus in John 6 (the Sitz im Leben essay, pp. 1-59). I think
one can do with John 6 what Martyn did with John 9, but rather than exposing one
primary crisis, several largely-sequential-yet-somewhat-overapping crises may be
inferred (the meaning of the feeding, Jewish-Johannine, docetizing-Johannine,
and Petrine-Johannine). So, I actually think the narrative had several levels of
meaning, but in every case, later audiences aretaken back to the exhortative
fulcrum of the chapter in vs. 27: seek not the death producing food, but the
food that leads to eternal life. Parallel to the Didache's "two ways" (the way
of life and the way of death), the invitation to receive the life-producing
nourishment which Jesus gives and is becomes the primary rhetorical thrust of
the Johannine feeding narrative and its related discussions.

I hope that helps; good questions, there!

Paul Anderson

________________________________

From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Elizabeth Danna
Sent: Wed 2/21/2007 5:30 PM
To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [John_Lit] [John-Lit]John and Mandaeanism



It is often said that Mandaean literature influenced the Gospel (though some say
the influence must be the other way because Mandaean literature is too late). 
My question is, how widely read was the Mandaean material?  Would the Greek or
Roman "Man in the street" have recognised a reference to it if he heard it?

On a related note - I 'm looking into Greco-Roman reader response to the
predicated "I am" sayings.  What would it mean to a Gentile to hear Jesus saying
"I am the bread of life", etc.?  Has any work been done on this?  Thanks.

Elizabeth Danna





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Just to echo Paul's arguments for seeing the influence more from Christianity
(and other religions) to Mandaeism than from Mandaeism to Christianity, let me
add that the John-the-Baptist material in the Mandaean corpus seems to date from
the Muslim conquest of the region, when the Mandaeans probably found themselves
under pressure to prove their status as a legitimate, prophetic religion so as
to warrant Dhimmi status as a people of the book. John's name in the Mandaean
writings is "Yahya," the Arabic form for "John," which fits the hypothesis that
the Mandaean 'reverence' for John the Baptist was after the rise of Islam.

   Incidentally, one even finds quotes from Matthew at places in the Mandaean
texts.

   Jeffery Hodges

Paul Anderson <panderso@...> wrote:
   Bultmann's connecting also of John the Baptist with the inferred origin of the
Johannine sayings conjectured a proto-Mandaean baptistic worship cult of which
the Johannine evangelist was a member before he became a follower of Jesus.
After all, some Mandaean literature also presents John the Baptist as a hero.
That is why it was inferred that the I-Am sayings in John had a Gnostic origin.
Moody Smith's Composition and Order of the Fourth Gospel lays out much of this
lucidly.


University Degrees:

Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
(Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

Email Address:

jefferyhodges@...

Blog:

http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

Office Address:

Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
Department of English Language and Literature
Korea University
136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
Seoul
South Korea

Home Address:

Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
Sehan Apt. 102-2302
Sinnae-dong 795
Jungrang-gu
Seoul 131-770
South Korea

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Beth (and everyone)! There are certainly an increasing number of
journals and even complete books online. One (which you will need to
access via a library that has a subscription) is www.netlibrary.com.
There are also whole books or parts of books via Google Books. And lots
of blogs, of course - my own (shameless plug alert) is at
http://blue.butler.edu/~jfmcgrat/blog/ but there are others that are
even more geared towards Biblical studies (mine tends to get sidetracked
onto other subjects such as recent episodes of LOST).

James




************************************************************************
***************************************

Dr. James F. McGrath                                 Tel. (317) 940-9364

Assistant Professor of Religion                     e-mail:
jfmcgrat@...

Butler University, 4600 Sunset Avenue         http://religion.sytes.net
<http://religion.sytes.net/>

Indianapolis, IN 46208

************************************************************************
***************************************



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Not to mention things on Google Scholar  (getting to be pretty robust).
And, if you have a library that his it (I do) the online full text
resources on the ATLA database, and/or JSTOR articles.  (both of which I
have access at home to my library)


Mark A. Matson
Academic Dean
Milligan College
http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/personal.htm


> From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> McGrath, James
> Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 8:51 AM
>
> Hi Beth (and everyone)! There are certainly an increasing
> number of journals and even complete books online. One (which
> you will need to access via a library that has a
> subscription) is www.netlibrary.com.
> There are also whole books or parts of books via Google
> Books. And lots of blogs, of course - my own (shameless plug
> alert) is at http://blue.butler.edu/~jfmcgrat/blog/ but there
> are others that are even more geared towards Biblical studies
> (mine tends to get sidetracked onto other subjects such as
> recent episodes of LOST).
>
> James
>

Mark,
    How does one go about securing the online full text of resources on the ATLA
database and the JSTOR articles?

Tom Butler




----- Original Message ----
From: "Matson, Mark (Academic)" <MAMatson@...>
To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 9:07:53 AM
Subject: RE: [John_Lit] [John-Lit] Online Resources

Not to mention things on Google Scholar (getting to be pretty robust).
And, if you have a library that his it (I do) the online full text
resources on the ATLA database, and/or JSTOR articles. (both of which I
have access at home to my library)

Mark A. Matson
Academic Dean
Milligan College
http://www.milligan .edu/administrat ive/personal. htm

> From: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
> [mailto:johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of
> McGrath, James
> Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 8:51 AM
>
> Hi Beth (and everyone)! There are certainly an increasing
> number of journals and even complete books online. One (which
> you will need to access via a library that has a
> subscription) is www.netlibrary. com.
> There are also whole books or parts of books via Google
> Books. And lots of blogs, of course - my own (shameless plug
> alert) is at http://blue. butler.edu/ ~jfmcgrat/ blog/ but there
> are others that are even more geared towards Biblical studies
> (mine tends to get sidetracked onto other subjects such as
> recent episodes of LOST).
>
> James
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tom:

You need a library that subscribes to these resources.  If so, and you can
become a patron, then you are in.

ATLA is the data base of the American Theological Library Association, and they
used to maintain the old Religion Index One and Two.  More recently these have
been augmented by full text of many of the articles (at least on the online
verson of the database -- I think there is a CD version that is updated
regularly, and I am not sure of the scope of that version).

JSTOR is a full text resource that covers a wide range of journals. It was
developed by the Mellon Foundation and is truly extensive. There is a rolling
curtain of 2-3 years (that is, for participating journals, articles in the most
recent 2-3 years do not appear on JSTOR) but after the curtain period, they have
agreements with hundreds of journals to have their articles on line.  Again,
this is by subscription -- and most academic libraries have some access to it.

These resources are truly remarkable, and I think we are seeing increased growth
in availability.  But the catch is some relationship with a library that makes
them available online.

My college is quite small, but we do have these resources for our faculty and
students.

mark

________________________________

From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Tom Butler
Sent: Thu 2/22/2007 8:03 PM
To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [John_Lit] [John-Lit] Online Resources



Mark,
    How does one go about securing the online full text of resources on the ATLA
database and the JSTOR articles?

Tom Butler








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mark,
    I am a pastor of a local church in Sparks, Nevada, which is a long way from
the nearest theological library (in Berkeley, Ca.) or from the seminary from
which I graduated (in Claremont, Ca.) 31 years ago.  Both libraries subscribe to
ATLA, but I am neither a faculty member nor a current student at either school
where these libraries are located.  Does that mean that I cannot gain on-line
access to this valuable on-line resource?

Tom Butler


----- Original Message ----
From: "Matson, Mark (Academic)" <MAMatson@...>
To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 5:24:19 PM
Subject: RE: [John_Lit] [John-Lit] Online Resources

Tom:

You need a library that subscribes to these resources. If so, and you can become
a patron, then you are in.

ATLA is the data base of the American Theological Library Association, and they
used to maintain the old Religion Index One and Two. More recently these have
been augmented by full text of many of the articles (at least on the online
verson of the database -- I think there is a CD version that is updated
regularly, and I am not sure of the scope of that version).

JSTOR is a full text resource that covers a wide range of journals. It was
developed by the Mellon Foundation and is truly extensive. There is a rolling
curtain of 2-3 years (that is, for participating journals, articles in the most
recent 2-3 years do not appear on JSTOR) but after the curtain period, they have
agreements with hundreds of journals to have their articles on line. Again, this
is by subscription -- and most academic libraries have some access to it.

These resources are truly remarkable, and I think we are seeing increased growth
in availability. But the catch is some relationship with a library that makes
them available online.

My college is quite small, but we do have these resources for our faculty and
students.

mark

____________ _________ _________ __

From: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com on behalf of Tom Butler
Sent: Thu 2/22/2007 8:03 PM
To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [John_Lit] [John-Lit] Online Resources

Mark,
How does one go about securing the online full text of resources on the ATLA
database and the JSTOR articles?

Tom Butler

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Probably.  Although it might be possible to negotiate with either Claremont or
GTU and gain some access as a student.  Some schools are doing that. I think my
alma mater (Duke) is making ATLA available to its grads.

mark

________________________________

From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Tom Butler
Sent: Thu 2/22/2007 8:51 PM
To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [John_Lit] [John-Lit] Online Resources



Mark,
    I am a pastor of a local church in Sparks, Nevada, which is a long way from
the nearest theological library (in Berkeley, Ca.) or from the seminary from
which I graduated (in Claremont, Ca.) 31 years ago.  Both libraries subscribe to
ATLA, but I am neither a faculty member nor a current student at either school
where these libraries are located.  Does that mean that I cannot gain on-line
access to this valuable on-line resource?

Tom Butler


----- Original Message ----
From: "Matson, Mark (Academic)" <MAMatson@...>
To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 5:24:19 PM
Subject: RE: [John_Lit] [John-Lit] Online Resources

Tom:

You need a library that subscribes to these resources. If so, and you can become
a patron, then you are in.

ATLA is the data base of the American Theological Library Association, and they
used to maintain the old Religion Index One and Two. More recently these have
been augmented by full text of many of the articles (at least on the online
verson of the database -- I think there is a CD version that is updated
regularly, and I am not sure of the scope of that version).

JSTOR is a full text resource that covers a wide range of journals. It was
developed by the Mellon Foundation and is truly extensive. There is a rolling
curtain of 2-3 years (that is, for participating journals, articles in the most
recent 2-3 years do not appear on JSTOR) but after the curtain period, they have
agreements with hundreds of journals to have their articles on line. Again, this
is by subscription -- and most academic libraries have some access to it.

These resources are truly remarkable, and I think we are seeing increased growth
in availability. But the catch is some relationship with a library that makes
them available online.

My college is quite small, but we do have these resources for our faculty and
students.

mark

____________ _________ _________ __

From: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com on behalf of Tom Butler
Sent: Thu 2/22/2007 8:03 PM
To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [John_Lit] [John-Lit] Online Resources

Mark,
How does one go about securing the online full text of resources on the ATLA
database and the JSTOR articles?

Tom Butler

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 05:51 PM 2/22/2007 -0800, Tom Butler wrote:
>   I am a pastor of a local church in Sparks, Nevada, which is a long way
>from the nearest theological library (in Berkeley, Ca.) or from the seminary
>from which I graduated (in Claremont, Ca.) 31 years ago.  Both libraries
>subscribe to ATLA, but I am neither a faculty member nor a current student
>at either school where these libraries are located.  Does that mean that I
>cannot gain on-line access to this valuable on-line resource?

ATLA now has subscriptions priced for individuals.

Stephen
--
Stephen C. Carlson                             mailto:scarlson@...
Weblog:                                   http://www.hypotyposeis.org/weblog/
Author of: The Gospel Hoax, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1932792481

Stephen and Mark,
    Thank you for your replies.
    Mark, I understand your reply to say, essentially, "Contact your alma mater
and ask them to negotiate a subscription for you."  In other words, subscribe
through your alma mater.  OK.  I'll try that.  Thank you.
    Stephen, I understand your reply to say, "Contact ATLA and subscribe as an
individual."  How does one contact ATLA directly?  Is there an address where a
subscription form for individuals is provided?  I will go there if there is.
    I'm sorry to reveal the extent of my internet ignorance.  Thank you for
helping me access information that I previously have thought would require at
least a day trip to acquire.  The main benefit to using the internet to do Bible
study, in my opinion, is that it saves a lot of time and is quite a bit more
convenient than searching through physical libraries, even ones we've
accumulated in our offices.
     For others who are following this thread it seems important to me to
acknowledge that there are some excellent software programs that allow scholars
of all levels of competence to acquire electronic commentaries, concordances,
maps and other similar resources, that essentially allow a person to build a
computer library at home or office.  Such libraries allow almost instantaneous
scans of every book in the electronic library when searching for resources
relating to a particular verse or topic, then providing a list of those
resources for the scholar to select and read at his or her leisure.
    I'm aware that the rules of this list prohibit advertising, so I'll ask for
clarification before making any recommendations of my own, but those who do not
know of these resources may be well served by being given some guidance as to
how to find them and what types of resources the various Bible study software
programs offer.

Tom Butler



----- Original Message ----
From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@...>
To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 7:18:23 PM
Subject: Re: [John_Lit] [John-Lit] Online Resources

At 05:51 PM 2/22/2007 -0800, Tom Butler wrote:
> I am a pastor of a local church in Sparks, Nevada, which is a long way
>from the nearest theological library (in Berkeley, Ca.) or from the seminary
>from which I graduated (in Claremont, Ca.) 31 years ago. Both libraries
>subscribe to ATLA, but I am neither a faculty member nor a current student
>at either school where these libraries are located. Does that mean that I
>cannot gain on-line access to this valuable on-line resource?

ATLA now has subscriptions priced for individuals.

Stephen
--
Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@mindspring .com
Weblog: http://www.hypotypo seis.org/ weblog/
Author of: The Gospel Hoax, http://www.amazon. com/exec/ obidos/ASIN/ 1932792481




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear J-Lit Listers,
     I did a web search for  ATLA  and found the following URL:

http://www.ovid.com/site/catalog/DataBase/216.jsp?top=2&mid=3&bottom=7&subsectio\
n=10

     This provides an option for registering your personal information and
affiliations.  It promises to send you a password that you can use to access the
site and learn what the cost of subscribing to the service is.

Tom Butler

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sounds like there's a lot available if one knows where to find it.  I agree with
Tom, a list would be helpful if someone were to compile it.  Thnaks to all who
replied.

Elizabeth Danna

Better yet, go to ATLA's own website:

http://www.atla.com/atlahome.html

Felix



--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
<pastor_t@...> wrote:
>
> Dear J-Lit Listers,
>     I did a web search for  ATLA  and found the following URL:
>
> http://www.ovid.com/site/catalog/DataBase/216.jsp?
top=2&mid=3&bottom=7&subsection=10
>
>     This provides an option for registering your personal
information and affiliations.  It promises to send you a password
that you can use to access the site and learn what the cost of
subscribing to the service is.
>
> Tom Butler
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

The service provided by ATLA is excellent and you are likely to print
off many more articles than you will anticipate. So, make sure that
you invest in a printer with duplex facility!

Ian


--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "Felix Just"
<fjust2000@...> wrote:
>
> Better yet, go to ATLA's own website:
>
> http://www.atla.com/atlahome.html
>
> Felix
>
>
>
> --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
> <pastor_t@> wrote:
> >
> > Dear J-Lit Listers,
> >     I did a web search for  ATLA  and found the following URL:
> >
> > http://www.ovid.com/site/catalog/DataBase/216.jsp?
> top=2&mid=3&bottom=7&subsection=10
> >
> >     This provides an option for registering your personal
> information and affiliations.  It promises to send you a password
> that you can use to access the site and learn what the cost of
> subscribing to the service is.
> >
> > Tom Butler
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Felix,

    It's been a while since we last communicated.

    I'm cautious about continuing this thread, since it could be viewed as
advertizing particular products.  Several other list members have e-mailed me
privately with their opinions about quality software.  I've indicated that I
will forward their suggestions along with my own to the list as soon as the list
owner rules whether or not this would be a violation of the list rules.  What do
you say?

    Thank you for the link to the ATLA website.  I have submitted an application.
I'll let the list know what happens if that's OK.

Yours in Christ's service,
Tom Butler





----- Original Message ----
From: Felix Just <fjust2000@...>
To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 9:45:43 PM
Subject: Re: [John_Lit] [John-Lit] Online Resources

Better yet, go to ATLA's own website:

http://www.atla. com/atlahome. html

Felix

--- In johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com, Tom Butler
<pastor_t@.. .> wrote:
>
> Dear J-Lit Listers,
> I did a web search for ATLA and found the following URL:
>
> http://www.ovid. com/site/ catalog/DataBase /216.jsp?
top=2&mid=3& bottom=7& subsection= 10
>
> This provides an option for registering your personal
information and affiliations. It promises to send you a password
that you can use to access the site and learn what the cost of
subscribing to the service is.
>
> Tom Butler
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tom,

   Recommending only one product (as we previously did with ATLA) seems closer to
"advertizing"; but providing a longer list of various resources, from which
people can choose, might be a helpful service.

   On the other hand, we don't need to reinvent the wheel.  So I'd suggest you
(and others) first look at some other websites that discuss and rate various
Bible study programs (such as http://www.bsreview.org/) before we try to compile
something ourselves.

   See also Mark Goodacre's http://ntgateway.com/greek/software.htm, who
generally lists only materials available for free, but not commericial software.
[He explains his reasons at
http://www.ntgateway.com/weblog/2004/02/blogwatch-bible-windows-to-bibloi.html.]

   But if the list you compiled is significantly different, feel free to post it.

   Felix




Tom Butler <pastor_t@...> wrote:
                   Felix,

It's been a while since we last communicated.

I'm cautious about continuing this thread, since it could be viewed as
advertizing particular products. Several other list members have e-mailed me
privately with their opinions about quality software. I've indicated that I will
forward their suggestions along with my own to the list as soon as the list
owner rules whether or not this would be a violation of the list rules. What do
you say?

Thank you for the link to the ATLA website. I have submitted an application.
I'll let the list know what happens if that's OK.

Yours in Christ's service,
Tom Butler


----- Original Message ----
From: Felix Just <fjust2000@...>
To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 9:45:43 PM
Subject: Re: [John_Lit] [John-Lit] Online Resources

Better yet, go to ATLA's own website:

http://www.atla. com/atlahome. html

Felix

--- In johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com, Tom Butler
<pastor_t@.. .> wrote:
>
> Dear J-Lit Listers,
> I did a web search for ATLA and found the following URL:
>
> http://www.ovid. com/site/ catalog/DataBase /216.jsp?
top=2&mid=3& bottom=7& subsection= 10
>
> This provides an option for registering your personal
information and affiliations. It promises to send you a password
that you can use to access the site and learn what the cost of
subscribing to the service is.
>
> Tom Butler


   .



---------------------------------
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pardon for disturbing the silence, but I was wondering if anyone had a
handy bibliography or perhaps a good (hopefully rather recent) article
(or articles) on the equation of Logos and Christ.

Many thanks for the considerations,

Chris Weimer, student
University of Memphis
Major: Latin and Greek
Minor: Judaic Studies

Thoughts on Antiquity <http://neonostalgia.com/weblog/>
Ancient Mediterranean Cultures <http://neonostalgia.com/forum>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A recent book, "The Prologue of the Fourth Gospel" by Peter M.
Phillips (London, T&T Clark 2006), might be a good place to start if
your university library has it.  According to the preface, it is a
Ph.D. thesis that has not been completely updated (i.e., as of 2006),
but it has a discussion of logos and the Jewish wisdom tradition as
well as a careful reading of the prologue to John.  I'm not qualified
to vouch for the bibliography, but as it was compiled for a Ph.D.
thesis limited to the prologue it should meet your needs better than
a bibliography covering the entire Gospel.

Kevin Snapp
Chicago


--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Weimer"
<Christopher.M.Weimer@...> wrote:
>
> Pardon for disturbing the silence, but I was wondering if anyone
had a
> handy bibliography or perhaps a good (hopefully rather recent)
article
> (or articles) on the equation of Logos and Christ.
>
> Many thanks for the considerations,
>
> Chris Weimer, student
> University of Memphis
> Major: Latin and Greek
> Minor: Judaic Studies
>
> Thoughts on Antiquity <http://neonostalgia.com/weblog/>
> Ancient Mediterranean Cultures <http://neonostalgia.com/forum>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

With apologies for cross posting.

Over the past few months,  Corpus Paulinum has become a target for spam
messages from purveyors of get rich quick schemes, body part enlargement
pills, pirated software, and any number of other dubious products and
enterprises.

The number of such of messages sent to the moderators has increased
exponentially with each passing day, so that a great deal of our time is
wasted in deleting these messages and making sure that they do not get
through to the List membership.

Requests to our host server asking if there was something that could be
done about the apparent harvesting and sharing of the C-P address have
gone unanswered, leaving the moderators with no recourse save to shut
down the list and reincarnate it at another address.

And this is exactly what I have done.

I have created Corpus Paulinum-2 at Yahoo Groups.

Our new home is  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Corpus-Paulinum-2

I will be attempting to switch all members of C-P over to this new List
as soon as possible.  But in the mean time I ask all current C-P members
to help me in this task by sending a subscription request to:

Corpus-Paulinum-2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Please forgive me if you are an old member and I send a screening letter
to you before I (re)approve your membership.

Yours,

Jeffrey Gibson
--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
Chicago, Illinois
e-mail jgibson000@...

With apologies for cross posting.

It's that time of year again when the Society of Biblical Literature's
Annual Meeting is just round the corner (Nov. 17th - Nov.  20th) and I
begin to arrange the now traditional (11th annual!) gathering of all
those NT and Biblical and Biblically related e-list members (i.e.
XTalkers, B-Greeks, and members of Corpus Paulinum, John-Lit, Kata
Markon, Biblical Studies, T-C List, Ioudaios, Synoptic-L, Aramaic,
ANE-2, etc. ) who will be going to San Diego for the SBL
conference.

[For those of you who do not know what the Society of Biblical
Literature is and/or are unfamiliar with the SBL Annual Meeting, go
first to

http://www.sbl-site.org/

and then to

http://www.sbl-site.org/congresses/Congresses_AnnualMeeting.aspx].

The informal E-Listers' meeting is planned for Saturday, Nov. 17th at
11:30 a.m. (tentatively) at the Gorgias Press Booth (# 732) in the San
Diego Convention Center Exhibit Hall G-F.

As attendees of previous meetings know, this gathering is a great
opportunity to place a face to an one hitherto known only as an
electronic personality and/or to renew acquaintances made at previous
SBLs.

As I've done in the past 10 years in arranging this meeting, I'd like to

get an advance head count of those of you who are intending to attend
this year's SBL.

I'd also like to know who among the intended attendees is presenting a
paper during the conference (and at what time and place and within what
SBL group or section and under what title).

So this is the first call to write me OFF LIST at jgibson000@...

and let me know the following:

(a) if you will be attending;

(b) if and when and under what aegis (i.e., SBL/AAR Section and Session
#) you are presenting a paper,

(c) your paper title, AND

(d) what you consider to be your "home" E-List.

I'll keep everyone updated as the info comes in to me.

Again, write to me OFF LIST (jgibson000@...) and please use a
header that says something like "SBL e-listers' meeting".

May I ask that if you are letting me know that you are giving a paper,
that   you adhere as closely as possible to the SBL/AAR Program Book
Format when you do so.  That is to say,  I'd be grateful if you'd
compose your information according to this formula:

Name and Institution
Section #
Title of Section
Date
Time
Room
Theme
Paper title

For example:

Mark Goodacre
S19-122
Q
11/19/2007
4:00 PM to 6:30 PM
Room: Emma C - GH

Theme: The Mark-Q Overlaps
Mark Goodacre, Duke University
Taking Leave of Mark-Q Overlaps: Major Agreements in Matthew 3.7-12 //
Mark 1.7-8 // Luke 3.7-9, 15-17


Looking forward to seeing you in San Diego!

Yours,

Jeffrey Gibson
--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
Chicago, Illinois
e-mail jgibson000@...

I will be out of the office starting  21/07/2007 and will not return until
08/10/2007.

Annual Leave

With apologies for cross posting.

This is the second announcement of the now traditional (11th annual!)
NT, Biblical, and Biblically related e-list members meeting at this
year's upcoming Society of Biblical Literature's  Annual Conference in
San Diego.

[For those of you who do not know what the Society of Biblical
Literature is and/or are unfamiliar with the SBL Annual Meeting, go
first to

http://www.sbl-site.org/

and then to

http://www.sbl-site.org/congresses/Congresses_AnnualMeeting.aspx].

The meeting is planned for Saturday, Nov. 17th at 11:30 a.m. at the
Gorgias Press Booth (# 732) in the San Diego Convention Center Exhibit
Hall G-F.

As attendees of previous meetings know, this gathering is a great
opportunity to place a face to an one hitherto known only as an
electronic personality and/or to renew acquaintances made at previous
SBLs.

As I've done in the past 10 years in arranging this meeting, I'd like to
get an advance head count of those of you who are intending to attend
this year's SBL.

I'd also like to know who among the intended attendees is presenting a
paper during the conference (and at what time and place and within what
SBL group or section and under what title).

So this is the second all to write me OFF LIST at jgibson000@...
and let me know the following:

(a) if you will be attending;

(b) if and when and under what aegis (i.e., SBL/AAR Section and Session
#) you are presenting a paper,

(c) your paper title, AND

(d) what you consider to be your "home" E-List.

I'll keep everyone updated as the info comes in to me.

Again, write to me OFF LIST (jgibson000@...) and please use a
header that says something like "SBL e-listers' meeting".

May I ask that if you are letting me know that you are giving a paper,
that  you adhere as closely as possible to the SBL/AAR Program Book
Format when you do so.  That is to say,  I'd be grateful if you'd
compose your information according to this formula:

Name and Institution
Section #
Title of Section
Date
Time
Room
Theme
Paper title

For example:

Mark Goodacre
S19-122
Q
11/19/2007
4:00 PM to 6:30 PM
Room: Emma C - GH

Theme: The Mark-Q Overlaps
Mark Goodacre, Duke University
Taking Leave of Mark-Q Overlaps: Major Agreements in Matthew 3.7-12 //
Mark 1.7-8 // Luke 3.7-9, 15-17


Looking forward to seeing you in San Diego!

Yours,

Jeffrey Gibson
--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
Chicago, Illinois
e-mail jgibson000@...

I am in the beginning stages of my master's thesis and would love to hear
some of your thoughts and recommended readings for the Johannine use of
logos and phos in relation to Jesus both in the Gospel and Epistles.  I
don't seem to find a lot of information on either outside of exegetical
notes in commentaries.  I am deeply interested in the significance of these
ideas in Eastern theology, as it seems that it is there that logos and phos
have retained its importance and have flourished.



Your suggestions and recommendations come with deepest thanks!



Sam Gibby

M.A. Candidate, 2008

Regent University

School of Divinity

Virginia Beach, VA



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sam:

Well, here is a start on some of this, though off the top of my head --

1.  CH Dodd, Intepretation of the fourth gospel (dated, but what a treasure
trove of comparative information)
2.  Craig Koester, Symbolism in the Fourth Gospel
3.  You should check the entries for each in both TDNT and Anchor Bible
Dictionary. TDNT usually has extensive discussions on specific use.  If I
recall, the "logos" entry in ABD is quite good, and has great bibliographic
entries at the end.
4. John Ashton, Understanding the Fourth Gospel

At least this is where I would start.

But if I get you correctly, your real interest is not really in John's use of
phos or logos, but rather you are trying to gain a trajectory on the later
Eastern theology of these ideas, and so you are trying to angle into that. Am I
Correct?

If so, I might start with some early Eastern theologians, and see how they  (a)
interpret John, and (b) how they use the terms independently of their citation
of John.  I am by no means conversant in these, but I would think that exploring
the works of John chrysostom, and the Cappodocians (Basil, Gregory of Nyssa, and
Gregory of Nazianzus) would be a great way to angle into this trajectory.  And I
think there should be some good material out there on these theologians.


Mark A. Matson
Academic Dean
Milligan College
http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm

________________________________

From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Sam Gibby
Sent: Tue 12/4/2007 5:56 PM
To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [John_Lit] Johannine Views of Jesus



I am in the beginning stages of my master's thesis and would love to hear
some of your thoughts and recommended readings for the Johannine use of
logos and phos in relation to Jesus both in the Gospel and Epistles.  I
don't seem to find a lot of information on either outside of exegetical
notes in commentaries.  I am deeply interested in the significance of these
ideas in Eastern theology, as it seems that it is there that logos and phos
have retained its importance and have flourished.



Your suggestions and recommendations come with deepest thanks!



Sam Gibby

M.A. Candidate, 2008

Regent University

School of Divinity

Virginia Beach, VA



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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