Hi there, Beth, nice to see you at the Toronto meetings!  Here's the
information on the conference, as distributed by John Donahue:

Theme: "Life in Abundance; An International Conference on Johannine Studies In
Memory of Raymond E. Brown, S.S."

Dates: October 16-18, 2003

Location: St Mary's Seminary & University, 5400 Roland Ave. Baltimore, MD 21210

Coordinator of Conference: Rev. John R. Donahue, S.J.

Information: Mrs. Elizabeth Visconage, bvisconage@...

It looks like it will be an excellent conference, and an excellent selection of
themes and scholars is being organized by John Donahue.


May I also remind my colleagues of the St Andrews Conference on The Gospel of
John and Christian Theology, hosted and organized by Richard Bauckham (see
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/academic/divinity/john_2.html).

These promise to be excellent opportunities for the international community of
Johannine scholars to engage and further our investigations together.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Paul N. Anderson
George Fox University
Newberg, OR 97132


PS Thanks to all who participated in the Jesus, John, and History Consultation
at the Toronto meetings.  We'll submit a brief report soon.

	 -----Original Message-----
	 From: Beth Sheppard [mailto:bsheppar@...]
	 Sent: Wed 11/27/2002 10:38 AM
	 To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
	 Cc:
	 Subject: [John_Lit] RE: Conference?





	 Hello.  During Monday's Johannine Literature session at SBL, an
	 announcement was made concerning a Johannine Literature conference in
	 honor of the memory of Raymond E. Brown. Unfortunately, I had to depart
	 the session early to catch a plane and was not able to pick up the flyer
	 concerning this conference.  If anyone knows the details about this
	 event, would you please be so kind as to pass them on to me?

	 Thank you.

	 Beth M. Sheppard
	 Southwestern College, KS

	 bsheppar@...


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Beth,
    I'm just catching up on all of the e-mail that arrived while I was at
the SBL conference.  Fortunately, I was able to get one of the hand-
outs to which you referred.  Here is the information on it:

Life in Abundance: An International Conference on Johannine Studies
In Memory of Raymond E. Brown, S.S.  October 16-18, 2003
St. Mary's Seminary and University (in Baltimore, Maryland).

A two-day conference devoted to the major significance of Raymond E.
Brown's Johannine scholarship.  The conference will include public
lectures and specialized colloquia examining various aspects of
Raymond Brown's work, in dialog with scholarship subsequent to his
death.  The papers from the conference will subsequently be collected
for publication as a scholarly monograph.

Keynote address, Oct. 16, 2003: Godfried Cardinal Danneels, Archbishop
of Malines-Brussels.

Major Addresses by:

Professor Francis J. Maloney, S.D.B., Katherine Drexel Professor of
Religious Studies, Catholic University of America, author of The Gospel
of John and The Johannine Son of Man.  "The Gospel of John: The
Legacy of Raymond E. Brown and Beyond."   Respondent: Prof. Alan
Culpepper, Dean: MacAfee School of Theology, Mercer University.

Professor Joseph A. Fitzmeyer, S.J. Professor Emeritus, Catholic
University of America.  Recent Studies on John and Qumran.
Respondent: Prof. Daniel Harrington, S.J. Weston Jesuit School of
Theology.

Professor Burton L. Visotzky, Jewish Theological Seminary.
"Methodological Considerations in the Study of John's Interaction
with First-Century Judaism"  Respondent: Prof. Adele Reinhartz,
Dean of Graduate Studies, Wilfrid Laurier University, Ontario, CA.

Professor Craig Koester, Luther Theological Seminary, Minneapolis,
"The Word of God and the Human Condition: Exploring the Theology
of John's Gospel"  Respondent: Prof. Gail O'Day, Candler School of
Theology, Emory University

Professor Sandra M. Schneiders, I.H.M., Jesuit School of Theology,
Berkeley, "The Resurrection (of the Body) in the Fourth Gospel:  A
Key to Johannine Spirituality"  [Respondent to be designated]

Professor Ron Witherup, S.S. Professor of New Testament, St. Patrick's
Seminary, Menlo Park, Ca.  Prvincial of the Sulpicians, Theology of
Pastoral Writings of Raymond Brown  Respondent: Dr. Marion Soards,
Presbyterian Theological Seminary

Professor Johannes Beutler, S.J. Professor, Pontifical Biblical
Institute,
Rome.  [topic to be specified]

The Conference will conclude with a "Scholars Roundtable" to discuss
future directions of Johannine Studies.  A complete bibliography of
Raymond E. Brown's writings will be available at the Conference.

Corrdinator of the Conference, Rev. John R. Donahue, S.J.
For further information on attending, contact Mrs. Elizabeth Visconage,
Vice-President of Institutional Advancement, St. Mary's Seminary and
University, 5400 Roland Ave., Baltimore, MD, 21210, Phone: 410-864-
4261, e-mail: bvisconage@...

Hope this helps.

Yours in Christ's service,
Tom Butler

On Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:38:07 -0600 "Beth Sheppard" <bsheppar@...>
writes:
>
>
> Hello.  During Monday's Johannine Literature session at SBL, an
> announcement was made concerning a Johannine Literature conference
> in
> honor of the memory of Raymond E. Brown. Unfortunately, I had to
> depart
> the session early to catch a plane and was not able to pick up the
> flyer
> concerning this conference.  If anyone knows the details about this
> event, would you please be so kind as to pass them on to me?
>
> Thank you.
>
> Beth M. Sheppard
> Southwestern College, KS
>
> bsheppar@...
>
>
> SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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>
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Now here's a bit a strange manuscript evidence from 20 centuries after
writing and 4 centuries after printing - (no fixed number of copied
characters per roll or page in a folio)

I looked up Luke 22:43-44 in a non-electronic Bible (Pocket RSV 1971). It
was right on the page break in the centre of the book - and verses 43 and 44
do not exist in this edition - there is no tear in the page - they are
simply not printed!  What could we say about that technology that built this
bible!  If Wieland had not asked the question, I would never have noticed
this anomaly.

So RSV doesn't have the verses anywhere - and they are bracketed in Nestle
Greek Text - how would they get into John's gospel if they were not in
Luke's at all?

Bob

mailto::BobMacDonald@...
+ + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

Catch the foxes for us,
    the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
for our vineyards are in flower.   (Song 2.15)
http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca


-----Original Message-----
From: Wieland Willker [mailto:willker@...]
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 8:17 AM
To: John-Lit
Subject: [John_Lit] Jo 12:27-30 = Lk 22:43-44 ?


Do you think it is possible or even probable (Harnack) that John got the
paragraph Jo 12:27-30 from Lk 22:43-44? He changed and adapted them
considerably: the angel and the blood have been removed, the
strengthening is not for Jesus, but for the others.


Best wishes
     Wieland
        <><
------------------------------------------------
Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
mailto:willker@...
http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie




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I want to take this opportunity to wish all of you a happy thanksgiving day.
As the smells of great cooking permeate our homes, let us remember those who
have no home.  As we enjoy the company of our friends, let us remember those
who are lonely.  As we enjoy the food, let us remember the hungry.

shlama amkon

Jack

A technical question

Mary Coloe in her God Dwells with Us indicates that the following is in
Isaiah 41:4 and 43:10

in reverse order (Aleph-nun-yod dash? He-.waw-aleph)

She links this to the ego eimi of John

My problem is I cannot see these letters in the Hebrew Bible I have access
to - (Blue letter online)

Can someone help my limited vision and transliteration?

thanks

Bob

mailto::BobMacDonald@...
+ + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

Catch the foxes for us,
    the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
for our vineyards are in flower.   (Song 2.15)
http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca

Hi Bob, what's the web address of this blue line bible and I'll have a look
and see what they have -  in 43:10. as it is a long verse the 'ani-hu'
comes about half way, and the same in 41:4 but perhaps there is a problem
with this resource you are using. Let's know the address and i'll check it.
Perhaps there may be others on the list who can put you on to another
on-line Hebrew version if this is the problem.  It's difficult if you don't
have access to a BHS.


Dr. Mary Coloe pbvm
Australian Catholic University Limited
(ABN 15050 192660)

Locked Bag 4115
Fitzroy.  VIC 3065  AUSTRALIA

ph (61 + 3) 99533137   Fax (61 + 3) 99533245
M.Coloe@...

Bob MacDonald wrote:

> A technical question
>
> Mary Coloe in her God Dwells with Us indicates that
> the following is in Isaiah 41:4 and 43:10
>
> in reverse order (Aleph-nun-yod dash? He-.waw-aleph)
>
> She links this to the ego eimi of John
>
> My problem is I cannot see these letters in the
> Hebrew Bible I have access to - (Blue letter online)
>
> Can someone help my limited vision and
> transliteration?

Perhaps this will help:

aleph-nun-yod [= I] dash He-waw-aleph [= he] = "I [am]
he"

This is at the end of Isaiah 41:4 and in the middle of
Isaiah 43:10.

I don't have Mary Coloe's book, so I cannot comment
upon it.

Jeffery Hodges

=====
Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
Yangsandong 411
South Korea

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The link I am using is from the NT Gateway to the all in one Bible search
engines
http://www.ntgateway.com/multibib2.htm I enter the book chapter about 3/4
down the page and then click on the C for the concordance verse by verse.

When I looked again - the letters are there for 41:4, the last word.  They
just didn't transliterate it - a flaw in the images.  Thank-you Jeffrey for
the assistance in the deciphering - I haven't got to the personal pronouns
in Lambdin yet!

Isaiah 43:10 is a little harder to read but I will struggle with it some
more

Thanks for the help.

Bob

mailto::BobMacDonald@...
+ + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

Catch the foxes for us,
    the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
for our vineyards are in flower.   (Song 2.15)
http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca


-----Original Message-----
From: Mary Coloe [mailto:M.Coloe@...]
Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 5:59 PM
To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Isaiah 41:4 and 43:10



Hi Bob, what's the web address of this blue line bible and I'll have a look
and see what they have -  in 43:10. as it is a long verse the 'ani-hu'
comes about half way, and the same in 41:4 but perhaps there is a problem
with this resource you are using. Let's know the address and i'll check it.
Perhaps there may be others on the list who can put you on to another
on-line Hebrew version if this is the problem.  It's difficult if you don't
have access to a BHS.


Dr. Mary Coloe pbvm
Australian Catholic University Limited
(ABN 15050 192660)

Locked Bag 4115
Fitzroy.  VIC 3065  AUSTRALIA

ph (61 + 3) 99533137   Fax (61 + 3) 99533245
M.Coloe@...



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Bob wrote:
" Mary Coloe in her God Dwells with Us indicates that the following is in
> Isaiah 41:4 and 43:10
>
> in reverse order (Aleph-nun-yod dash? He-.waw-aleph)
>
> She links this to the ego eimi of John"

Makes sense to me, even without reading the book. The links between "Second
Isaiah" and John have been noted by numerous scholars, and the force of this
phrase does seem to parallel Jesus use of "I am" in the fourth gospel. Very
interesting. Perhaps I should get hold of the book

Best Wishes

JOHN E STATON

John Staton wrote
>>Perhaps I should get hold of the book

I have no trouble recommending it, John. I am hoping someone took notes at
the discussion on this book at the SBL meeting and that perhaps some of the
questions will arise here on this list.

The Isaiah 43:10 in the source I have seems to lack the I am he in Hebrew -
the word opposite the "that I [am] he" is paniym : before with a Lamed in
front of it. I suspect the compilers did not want to transliterate these but
in this verse the Hebrew is missing too.

(This is straight out of the advent prose - very good timing for my current
reading.)

When were the Targums of Isaiah written?  They seem very influenced by the
Gospel - not vice versa.  The DSS finds were not such targums were they?
Would this interpretive scheme be current in the first century?

Bob

mailto::BobMacDonald@...
+ + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

Catch the foxes for us,
    the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
for our vineyards are in flower.   (Song 2.15)
http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca

Dear Bob - Targum dating is extremely difficult as in these documents show
signs of a long history of development ranging from BCE into the 5th and
6th century CE and even beyond. So yes  the Targums could well have been
influenced by our Gospel.  the key to their usefulness is if you can find a
definitely pre-Gospel tradition showing the same type of exegetical trend
i.e. by comparing with other pre-gospel writing such as the DSS or
Jubilees.



Dr. Mary Coloe pbvm
Australian Catholic University Limited
(ABN 15050 192660)

Locked Bag 4115
Fitzroy.  VIC 3065  AUSTRALIA

ph (61 + 3) 99533137   Fax (61 + 3) 99533245
M.Coloe@...

RSV has he gave up his spirit

NET has a literal note : he bowed his head and gave over the spirit

Mary Coloe in her God Dwells with Us points out that the Greek gave over is
the same as the word for betrayed in 18:2, and 18:5, also the word is used
in 18:35, 36, 19:11, 16 (p189) - i.e. it is a theme in the passion story.

She suggests that John is referring to a 'handing over' of the Spirit here.

Any one else have a thought on what this might mean?

I think I am too influenced by the Bach St John Passion to think of
transference of the Spirit here - not to the disciples anyway.
though perhaps the separation of 'death' is a kind of a contradiction in the
relationships of the Son and the Spirit - i.e. a kind of betrayal.

weird thoughts

Bob

mailto::BobMacDonald@...
+ + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

Catch the foxes for us,
    the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
for our vineyards are in flower.   (Song 2.15)
http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca

Dear Bob MacDonald,

In a  paper for the Translation Section of SBL 2000 (Being in Spirit: on the
Pericopes in the Synoptic Gospels with En Pneumati) I have suggested the same as
Mary Coloe does: 'handed over the spirit' (or Spirit? alway a tricky decision).
I think this is very convincing if one assumes the spirit is in Jesus, or maybe
in the human being. That is what I argued in that paper (besides that [some]
human beings may be in (the) (holy) spirit). For both propositions I have found
quite a few convincing arguments in the Gospels, apart from those below:

Mt 27:50 is a bit different but close to 'hand over': 'let go the spirit'
(apheken).
Lk 23:46 is quite near to Jn with the extra phrase 'paratithemai to pneuma mou'.
For this Rienecker's Sprachlicher Schluessel gives 'zur Aufbewahrung
niederlegen, anvertrauen, anbefehlen'.
In the Kittel Maurer speaks of 'commending His spirit'. Generally it is
translated as ' commit' or 'commend', which is similar but less strong.
Then he speaks of 'exepneusen', which is related to pneuma of course: 'breathes
out the spirit'.

Wali van Lohuizen
Amsterdam, Holland





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Bob MacDonald
<bobmacdonald@s...> wrote:
> RSV has he gave up his spirit
>
> NET has a literal note : he bowed his head and gave over the spirit
>
> Mary Coloe in her God Dwells with Us points out that the Greek gave
over is
> the same as the word for betrayed in 18:2, and 18:5, also the word
is used
> in 18:35, 36, 19:11, 16 (p189) - i.e. it is a theme in the passion
story.
>

There is both more and less to this than meets the eye.  The word does
not necessarily, or even often, mean "betray", but it does often  mean
"arrest".  St Paul may thereforre just have meant, "the night when he
was arrested", and the bit about Judas may be an overwrite designed to
calumniate Jesus's brother Judas (Matt. 13.55).
                                                Martin Edwards.

I agree that 19:30 (literally, "giving up/over the Spirit") is about
Jesus giving the Spirit after his death.  But here, as elsewhere in
Jn., I think it's more a proleptic anticipation of what Jesus will do
(later after his resurrection when he breathes on the disciples and
says receive the Spirit, though even this "foreshadows" the later
Pentecost event of Acts).

This future giving of the Spirit is clearly announced in Jn. 7:37-39
(the living water/Spirit will flow out of "his" belly after Jesus is
glorified).  I think this is also fulfilled in a proleptic way in Jn.
19:34, shortly after the verse being discussed (19:30).  After the
soldier pierces Jesus' side, blood and water come out.  The witness
of this emphasizes the truth of this account to accent its
importance.  Thus the water fulfils the living water/Spirit flowing
out after his death/glorification.

So 19:30 fits into this motif also.  Various other passages
throughout Jn. could also be cited as similar metaphors for this
motif.  And much of Jn. 14-16 emphasizes the importance of Jesus
sending/giving the Paraclete/Spirit after he departs.

Steve Mosher

--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Bob MacDonald
<bobmacdonald@s...> wrote:
> RSV has he gave up his spirit
>
> NET has a literal note : he bowed his head and gave over the spirit
>
> Mary Coloe in her God Dwells with Us points out that the Greek gave
over is
> the same as the word for betrayed in 18:2, and 18:5, also the word
is used
> in 18:35, 36, 19:11, 16 (p189) - i.e. it is a theme in the passion
story.
>
> She suggests that John is referring to a 'handing over' of the
Spirit here.
>
> Any one else have a thought on what this might mean?
>
> I think I am too influenced by the Bach St John Passion to think of
> transference of the Spirit here - not to the disciples anyway.
> though perhaps the separation of 'death' is a kind of a
contradiction in the
> relationships of the Son and the Spirit - i.e. a kind of betrayal.
>
> weird thoughts
>
> Bob
>
> mailto::BobMacDonald@s...
> + + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +
>
> Catch the foxes for us,
>    the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
> for our vineyards are in flower.   (Song 2.15)
> http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca

Moloney John Sacra Pagina 509 discusses this and renders it handed over the
Spirit.

Thank you, Mary, and all who answered my somewhat confused question

I came across a thought today that might lend some additional theological
strength to the giving of the Spirit at the death of Jesus:

A prayer of Hildebert (1056-1133)
O holy Ghost, O faithful Paraclete, Love of the Father and the Son, In whom
begetter and begotten meet

In that we are begot in Christ by his death, and we meet him there - this is
a consistent invitation to the foot of the cross, the mercy seat in the
terms of Hebrews, and the being 'born from above' that Mary suggests is
inherent also in this image of the handing over of the Spirit.

I used this prayer at Compline last night but didn't see its relevance to my
question till mid-day today. a little intertextual interpreting.

for the full text of the prayer see my unpacking the liturgy page:
http://bmd.gx.ca/understanding_the_content_of_wor.htm and click on a lesson
for Compline


Mary

I am intrigued that you did not invoke or reference any of the typology of
Hebrews in your book - it is such a strong parallel to many (most) of the
images you did develop.

Bob

mailto::BobMacDonald@...
+ + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

Catch the foxes for us,
    the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
for our vineyards are in flower.   (Song 2.15)
http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca


-----Original Message-----
From: Mary Coloe [mailto:M.Coloe@...]
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 4:13 PM
To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [John_Lit] John 19:30



Moloney John Sacra Pagina 509 discusses this and renders it handed over the
Spirit.



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A Happy Christmas to one and all

Best Wishes

JOHN E STATON

Merci beaucoup. Joyeux Noël de Canada.

Don Garlington
Toronto


--- John E Staton <jestaton@...> wrote:
> A Happy Christmas to one and all
>
> Best Wishes
>
> JOHN E STATON
>
>
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Hi Don,
Any news on the McMaster's front? Happy boxing day!
Steve


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Happy boxing day!

Boxing Day? What's that -- the feast day of St. Pugnacious?

=====
Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
Yangsandong 411
South Korea

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Dear Horace,

You must be an American! When we arrived in England in
'82, one of our first cultural surprises was Boxing
Day. We too thought it must be the celebration of
pugnatious activities, or such like. There are various
explanations as to how the day got its name. Most
probably, it arose from the practice of landlords
delivering boxes of food and other gifts to their
tenants the day after Christmas. So, Boxing Day is
just the day after Christmas, which is observed here
in Canada too. It's nice to have an additional day
after Christmas as a kind of buffer to face the world
again.

Don



--- Horace Jeffery Hodges <jefferyhodges@...>
wrote:
> > Happy boxing day!
>
> Boxing Day? What's that -- the feast day of St.
> Pugnacious?
>
> =====
> Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
> Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
> 447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
> Yangsandong 411
> South Korea
>
> __________________________________________________
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I am new to the List, and perhaps this question has
arisen before. As the backdrop to John 1:9, has anyone
considered Bar 4:1-2; Wis 18:4; and especially T. Levi
14:4: “the light of the law which was granted to you
for the enlightenment of every man?" The Testaments of
the Twelve Patriarchs do contain Christian
interpolations, but it seems unlikely that a Christian
would designate the law as the "enlightenment of every
man." Does anyone think that John is bouncing off this
stream of tradition?

Thanks.

Don Garlington\
Toronto

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Don Garlington wrote:

> Dear Horace,

I prefer Jeffery.

> You must be an American! When we arrived in England
> in '82, one of our first cultural surprises was
> Boxing Day. We too thought it must be the
> celebration of pugnatious activities, or such like.
> There are various explanations as to how the day got
> its name. Most probably, it arose from the practice
> of landlords delivering boxes of food and other
> gifts to their tenants the day after Christmas. So,
> Boxing Day is just the day after Christmas, which is
> observed here in Canada too. It's nice to have an
> additional day after Christmas as a kind of buffer
> to face the world again.

Actually, I had been waiting several years to make my
punning joke. I, too, have experienced Boxing Day
through several Christmastide visits to England to see
friends.

I've also heard similar explanations as to the
holiday's origin.

Best Regards,

Jeffery Hodges

=====
Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
Yangsandong 411
South Korea

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Don
welcome - I have just read Mary Coloe's book - God Dwells with Us; Temple
Symbolism in the Fourth Gospel. In the prologue, she contrasts directly the
gift of the Law with the gift of the word made flesh - 'the fullness of a
gift that is true' 14d her translation; similarly vs 17 - 'the true gift
came through Jesus Christ' in contrast to the law. So your suggestion that
verse 9 might have the light of the Law as its background fits the explicit
mention of the Law given through Moses in 17a.

Her translations differ from the traditional (Her note page 27 following
Bultmann and Moloney 1978). The 'true' light of verse 9 may find its refrain
in the 'true' of vs 14 and 17 - strengthening the connection you suggest and
contrasting it again with the first gift.

She mentions Baruch 4:1 as identifying Wisdom with "the book of the
commandments of God, and the law that endures forever", and also Sirach 24,
but not the other passages you cite as far as I can tell from scanning the
index.

Bob

mailto::BobMacDonald@...
+ + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

Catch the foxes for us,
    the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
for our vineyards are in flower.   (Song 2.15)
http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca


-----Original Message-----
From: Don Garlington [mailto:dongarlington@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 1:41 PM
To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [John_Lit] Now for something completely different: John 1:9


I am new to the List, and perhaps this question has
arisen before. As the backdrop to John 1:9, has anyone
considered Bar 4:1-2; Wis 18:4; and especially T. Levi
14:4: the light of the law which was granted to you
for the enlightenment of every man?" The Testaments of
the Twelve Patriarchs do contain Christian
interpolations, but it seems unlikely that a Christian
would designate the law as the "enlightenment of every
man." Does anyone think that John is bouncing off this
stream of tradition?

Thanks.

Don Garlington\
Toronto

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In John 2:7, the servants fill the jars to the brim
with water. Was this normal proceedure for large stone
jars used for ceremonial purification?

Jeffery Hodges

=====
Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
Yangsandong 411
South Korea

__________________________________________________
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Jeffery asked:

"In John 2:7, the servants fill the jars to the brim
with water. Was this normal procedure for large stone
jars used for ceremonial purification?"

Although I do not know to what extent such jars used to be filled, I would
like to remark that an abundant supply of 'traditional' water is surely
"normal procedure" in John 1-7.
This supply is both in some sense praparatory to, and stands in opposition
to the new gift that Jesus is offering.

In John 2 it is plenty of purification water in the jars - which seems to me
to symbolize fulfilment of the law "to the brim". It will not bring
salvation if it remains external, at the door - but brought inside and
touched by the word of Jesus it becomes a purifying power of another kind.
Wine is more like fire than like water..

In John 3 there is plenty of water where John is baptizing - whereas no
water at all is mentioned when the mysterious baptismal practice of Jesus is
mentioned. The Baptist states the opposition: I am baptizing with water, he
will baptize with fire and spirit. The Baptist, the utter representant of
the Old Covenant, needs a full supply of water to prepare people for the
qualitative change that he himself cannot perform. In his last speech in
John, about the bridegroom, he himself is the one that, as it were, carries
the water into the wedding room where Jesus takes over to baptize with fire.

In John 4 Jacob's Well presents a water supply sufficient for father Jacob,
all his sons and all his flock (verse 12). According to Jewish tradition,
Jacob's Well used to be filled to the brim every time when Jacob came to
draw water. Again, though not in the same way, this place of traditional
abundance is the starting point where Jesus takes over and offers his own
new gift instead.

In John 5, Jesus comes to the pool of Bethesda and, not denying the actual
saving power of this abundant supply of water, touches the lame with his
word, offering his saving gift instead.

In John 7, finally, Jesus appears at the Feast of Tabernacles, which
involved abundant outpouring of water by the priests in the temple court, at
the place where according to prophecy a river would spring forth at the day
of salvation and water all the land - and without bringing water Jesus
proclaims that faith in himself will make that river to flow out of your
inner self. And look - Jesus does not proclaim so at the beginning of the
feast, but at the end (7:37), when the feast is "filled to the brim".

Is this to say that you cannot accuse the Johannine Jesus of not taking
tradition seriously? Or is it to say that Jesus'gift enters precisely there,
where the holy tradition is fulfilled to the brim - as its utter fulfillment
which fully acknowledges its weight before taking its place?

Thank you, Jeffery, for this occasion to arrange some loose threads in my
mind!
Kind greetings and best wishes, let us fill this new year to the brim, and
may the word of Christ change all the water we'll carry into it, into wine!

Piet van Veldhuizen
Rotterdam, Netherlands
pi.veldhuizen@...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Horace Jeffery Hodges" <jefferyhodges@...>
To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 6:17 PM
Subject: [John_Lit] Filling to the Brim?


> In John 2:7, the servants fill the jars to the brim
> with water. Was this normal proceedure for large stone
> jars used for ceremonial purification?
>

Dear  Jeffery Hodges:

I don't know the answer to your question.

For me, though, the important point is that John stresses the filling of the
stone jars to their brims.  This is, ISTM, intentional.  Why, then, does he
stress that each jar (hudria) had been filled to its brim?

The answer, I suggest, lies in secs. 136-152 of Philo's essay, The Posterity
and Exile of Cain (Post).

In Post (136-152), Philo likens the mind to a hudria and Wisdom,
particularly as spoken to a pupil (mathetes),  to water, stating, "Rebecca,
it says, went down to the spring to fill her hudrian and came up again.  For
whence is it likely that a mind thirsting for sound sense should be filled
save from the Wisdom of God, that never-failing spring, its descent to which
is an ascent in accordance with some innate characteristic of a true learner
(mathetou)?  For the teaching of Virtue (i.e., Wisdom) awaits those who come
down from empty self-conceir".

Further, hudrias (minds) vary in their capacity for receiving the water
(i.e., Wisdom) and the hudria of each pupil (mathetes) should be filled to
its capacity.  So, in Post (136-152), Philo states, "And so in His desire
that we should enjoy benefit from the gifts which He bestows, God
proportions the things which He gives to the strength of those who receive
them.  Rebecca is therefore to be commended for following the ordinances of
the Father and letting down from a higher position the vessel which contains
Wisdom, called the hudrian, on to her arm, and for holding out to the pupil
(mathete) the teaching which he is able to receive.  Asked for a little to
drink she gives much, until she has filled the whole soul of the learner
with draughts of speculation."

So, I suggest, in the narrative of the wedding at Cana, each hudria
symbolizes the mind of a mathete (disciple).  The servants symbolize the
teachers who speak Wisdom to their disciples.  The water poured into each
hudria, then, symbolizes the Wisdom, as speech, told by a teacher to a
disciple.  Because minds vary in their capacity for receiving Wisdom as
speech, the hudrias at the wedding scene vary in their capacity for storing
water.  Because the mind of each disciple should be filled to its capacity
with Wisdom as speech, each of the hudria at the wedding scene is filled to
its brim with water.

This explains why the water poured into the hudrias becomes wine--for when
the spiritual water of Wisdom as speech enters into a  soul,  it acts as a
spiritual wine, spiritually intoxicating the soul.  As Philo states in Prob
(13), "Wisdom is most divine and free-handed, she never closes her school of
thought but always opens her doors to those who thirst for the sweet water
of discourse, and pouring on them an unstinted stream of undiluted doctrine,
persuades them to be drunken with the drunkeness which is soberness itself."

The spiritual water of Wisdom as discourse that becomes a spiritual
intoxicating wine in a soul can be poured out by the Logos as an offering of
his very self.  As Philo relates in Som II (245 & 249), "It is this Logos
which one of Moses' company compared to a river, when he said in the Psalms
'the river of God is full of water' (Ps. lxv. (lxiv.) 10); where surely it
were senseless to suppose that the words can properly refer to any of the
rivers of earth.  No, he is representing the Divine Logos as full of the
stream of Wisdom, with no part of it empty or devoid of itself....And when
the happy soul holds out the sacred goblet of its own reason (i.e., mind),
who is it that pours into it the holy cupfuls of true gladness but the
Logos, the Cup-bearer of God and master of the feast, who is also none other
than the draught which he pours--his own self free from all dilution, the
delight, the sweetening, the exhilarion, the merriment, the ambrosian drug
(to take for our own use the poet's terms) whose medicine gives joy and
gladness?"

This possibly relates to the wedding at Cana narrative, in which, it is
declared, the bridegroom has saved the best wine for the last.  In this
case, the bridegroom symbolizes the Logos and the best wine he has saved for
last is the Wisdom, as discourse, that is a part of his very self--the
thought being that Jesus, as the incarnate Logos, has brought us the wine of
Wisdom as discourse that is better than the previous inferior "wine" of .the
Law (compare Mark 2:18-22, where Jesus implies that he is the Bridegroom and
speaks about the old and new wine).

Seen in this light, the wedding at Cana narrative contains allegorical
elements and might even be an allegory.  This raises questions about its
historical reality.  Is the narrative of the wedding purely an allegory
without a historical basis?  Or, is it a narrative of an actual historical
event which has been so worded as to give it an inner allegorical meaning?

Frank McCoy
1809 N. English Apt. 17
Maplewood, MN USA 55109

Piet, I would affirm many of the connections you make concerning
the water that prepares for, and then is replaced by, Jesus' "new
gift."

I might just add that the "new gift" could be consistently focused
on the Spirit.

Jn. 1:33 contrasts John's baptism with water and Jesus' baptism
with the Spirit (no mention of fire in Jn.).  Jesus' water is also
present in the last passage you mention, where 7:37-39 points to the
living water Jesus will offer after he is glorified.

Living water is already the new gift Jesus offers in Jn. 4, yet when
the woman asks for it Jesus does not (yet) give it.  I think the
living water here should also (as in 7:39) be seen as the Spirit,
pointing in this context to the future day when true worshipers will
worship in Spirit and truth.

The new wine of Jn. 2 (regardless of links with fire and wine) could
also be seen as the Spirit.  If the "after two days" in 2:1 and Jesus'
hour not yet coming point ahead to the future death and resurrection
(after two days), then the turning water into wine could point to the
living water/wine Jesus will give when his hour of glorification
comes.  After Jesus manifests his "glory" (in a proleptic way) through
this sign/miracle, his disciples believe.

Steve Mosher

--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, <pi.veldhuizen@w...>
wrote:
> Jeffery asked:
>
> "In John 2:7, the servants fill the jars to the brim
> with water. Was this normal procedure for large stone
> jars used for ceremonial purification?"
>
> Although I do not know to what extent such jars used to be filled, I
would
> like to remark that an abundant supply of 'traditional' water is
surely
> "normal procedure" in John 1-7.
> This supply is both in some sense praparatory to, and stands in
opposition
> to the new gift that Jesus is offering.
>
> In John 2 it is plenty of purification water in the jars - which
seems to me
> to symbolize fulfilment of the law "to the brim". It will not bring
> salvation if it remains external, at the door - but brought inside
and
> touched by the word of Jesus it becomes a purifying power of another
kind.
> Wine is more like fire than like water..
>
> In John 3 there is plenty of water where John is baptizing - whereas
no
> water at all is mentioned when the mysterious baptismal practice of
Jesus is
> mentioned. The Baptist states the opposition: I am baptizing with
water, he
> will baptize with fire and spirit. The Baptist, the utter
representant of
> the Old Covenant, needs a full supply of water to prepare people for
the
> qualitative change that he himself cannot perform. In his last
speech in
> John, about the bridegroom, he himself is the one that, as it were,
carries
> the water into the wedding room where Jesus takes over to baptize
with fire.
>
> In John 4 Jacob's Well presents a water supply sufficient for father
Jacob,
> all his sons and all his flock (verse 12). According to Jewish
tradition,
> Jacob's Well used to be filled to the brim every time when Jacob
came to
> draw water. Again, though not in the same way, this place of
traditional
> abundance is the starting point where Jesus takes over and offers
his own
> new gift instead.
>
> In John 5, Jesus comes to the pool of Bethesda and, not denying the
actual
> saving power of this abundant supply of water, touches the lame with
his
> word, offering his saving gift instead.
>
> In John 7, finally, Jesus appears at the Feast of Tabernacles, which
> involved abundant outpouring of water by the priests in the temple
court, at
> the place where according to prophecy a river would spring forth at
the day
> of salvation and water all the land - and without bringing water
Jesus
> proclaims that faith in himself will make that river to flow out of
your
> inner self. And look - Jesus does not proclaim so at the beginning
of the
> feast, but at the end (7:37), when the feast is "filled to the
brim".
>
> Is this to say that you cannot accuse the Johannine Jesus of not
taking
> tradition seriously? Or is it to say that Jesus'gift enters
precisely there,
> where the holy tradition is fulfilled to the brim - as its utter
fulfillment
> which fully acknowledges its weight before taking its place?
>
> Thank you, Jeffery, for this occasion to arrange some loose threads
in my
> mind!
> Kind greetings and best wishes, let us fill this new year to the
brim, and
> may the word of Christ change all the water we'll carry into it,
into wine!
>
> Piet van Veldhuizen
> Rotterdam, Netherlands
> pi.veldhuizen@w...

Hello Frank McCoy,

None of us both answered Jeffery's question (is there a possibility at all
to establish in a historical sense what kind of vessels is meant, and what
kind of rules would have applied to their use?) - but let me reflect shortly
on your reaction.

Of course, you would not be Frank McCoy if you had not sent in extensive
Philo citations. As always, the parallels in use of words, concepts and
images are interesting.
But it is curious to see that your treatment of both authors does not urge
you, once you have arrived at Philo, to return to John. As I read your
contribution, you do not seem to acknowledge John's Gospel as an independent
piece of literature. One remark in John is explained exhaustively by the
thoughts, not of John, but of Philo.

It is not to underestimate the possible, in any case complex, relationship
between John and Philo - but a remark of John should be explained, at least
initially, in the context of John's own thought as expressed in his own
writings.

I completely disagree with your proposition, for example, to explain the six
vessels in John 2 as an image of disciples, just because in Philo's
meditations on Genesis 24 disciples are vessels for scriptural instruction.
That both John and Philo speak about "hydria" is just because both write in
greek. In fact, John's line of thought will be far closer to Philo's at this
point in John 4, where John himself is recurring to Genesis 24 motifs - but
there it is their common source, not their interdependence, that accounts
for their kinship of thought.

In John 2, the six vessels seem to be something like the forms of law
fulfillment, the six working days that have to be fulfilled, but that out of
themselves will never produce a shabbath. But just here a considerable
difference between Philo and John is, that John shows no need to pin images
down to exact meanings in a rebus-like manner.

A last difference: Philo is a commentary writer, John writes a story
himself. That makes a big difference both in the way they use language and
images, and in the exgegetical treatment they deserve.

Kind regards,
Piet van Veldhuizen
pi.veldhuizen@...