P.S.  I notice Jeff Staley has edited a new volume of essays on John and
Postcolonialism.  Sounds interesting, Jeff!  Care to fill us in on the
contents and what you feel to be some of the highlights of the piece?


Thanks, Paul for the free advertising!  And by the way, for those
interestested in Postmodernism and the Bible, one ought to look at AK< Adams
two books, Hand book of Postmodern Biblical Interpretation, and Postmodern
Commentary(?) on the NT, both by Chalice Press.

Here, folks, is a link:
http://www.continuumbooks.com/prev.cgi?bk_id=2662

Jeff Staley

Here is the table of contents:

Postcolonialism and the Gospel of John: Travel, Space, and Power
Musa W. Dube and Jeffrey L. Staley, editors

TABLE OF CONTENTS


Introduction
Descending from and Ascending into Heaven: A Postcolonial Analysis
of Travel, Space, and Power in John
Musa W. Dube and Jeffrey L. Staley

1. To Prepare a Place: Johannine Christianity and the Collapse of Ethnic
Territory Tod D. Swanson
2. 'Dis Place, Man': A Postcolonial Critique of the Vine (the Mountain and
the Temple) in the Gospel of John Jeffrey L. Staley
3.  Reading for Decolonization (John 4.1-42)Musa W. Dube
4. Contesting an Interpretation of John 5: Moving beyond Colonial Evangelism
Francisco Lozada, Jr
5. Maori 'Jews' and a Resistant reading of John 5.10-47 Mary Huie-Jolly
6. Adultery or Hybridity?: Reading John 7.53-8.11 from a Postcolonial
Context Jean K. Kim
7. Border-crossing and Its Redemptive Power in John 7.53-8.11: A Cultural
Reading of Jesus and the Accused  Leticia A. Guardiola-Saenz
8. Building toward 'Nation-ness' in the Vine: A Postcolonial Critique of
John 15.1-8 Zipporah Glass
9. The Colonized as Colonizer: Intertextual Dialogue between the Gospel of
John and Canadian Identity Adele Reinhartz
10. Ambiguous Admittance: Consent and Descent in John's Community of
'Upward' Mobility Tat-siong Benny Liew



List of Contributors

Musa W. Dube 		 Francisco Lozada, Jr.
University of Botswana 	 University of the Incarnate Word
Botswana 	 San Antonio, Texas

Zipporah G. Glass  Adele Reinhartz
Vanderbilt University  McMaster University
Nashville, Tennessee 	 Hamilton, Ontario Canada

Leticia A. Guardiola-Saenz    Jeffrey L. Staley
Andover Newton Theological School  Seattle University
Newton Centre, MA 		   Seattle, Washington

Mary Huie-Jolly 		   Tod Swanson
School of Ministry, Knox College   Arizona State University
Dunedin, Aotearoa/New Zealand 	   Tempe, Arizona

Jean Kim
San Francisco Theological Seminary/Southern California
Claremont, CA


Tat-siong Benny Liew
Chicago Theological Seminary
Chicago, Illinois

Jeffrey,
     I note with interest the book edited by you and Musa W. Dube:

Postcolonialism and the Gospel of John: Travel, Space, and Power.

I am particularly intrigued by the title of your introduction:

"Descending from and Ascending into Heaven:
A Postcolonial Analysis of Travel, Space, and Power in John"

Is it possible to read your introduction on-line?

I have done some reflecting upon the use of the Jacob's ladder
dream as it is used in the Fourth Gospel in my book
Let Her Keep It.

I'm curious to see whether your observations might be similar
to my own.

I'm afraid my budget will not absorb the $90 cost of your book
(if I understood correctly what the projected cost would be from
the link you provided).

Yours in Christ's service,
Tom Butler

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wieland:

I would think that the easier argument would be for TO PNEUMA to be the object. 
If PNEUMA were the subject, then this would be an intransitive verb, no?  That
is relatively rare for the active form of DIDWMI.  A quick look through Liddell
Scott, and my concordance, found few instances of the intransitive use. And John
seems to like the transitive use.  Though John 14:27 might be an example of an
intransitive use, in which the issue is manner of giving (similar to your "EX
METROU" in 3:34).

I wonder also, is the PNEUMA sufficiently personalized in John to carry a verb
like "to give"?  The PNEUMA in John seems to be more of a quality (moves like
the wind, linked with truth, etc), or a future paraclete.

Just some thoughts.

Mark

Mark A. Matson
Academic Dean, Milligan College
http://www.milligan.edu/Administrative/MMatson/personal.htm


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wieland Willker [mailto:willker@...]
> Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 4:01 PM
> To: John-Lit
> Subject: [John_Lit] John 3:34 TO PNEUMA
>
>
> John 3:34
> ON GAR APESTEILEN O QEOS TA RHMATA TOU QEOU LALEI, OU GAR EK
> METROU DIDWSIN TO PNEUMA.
>
> What arguments are there for taking TO PNEUMA as the subject
> (i.e. nominative instead of
> accusative)?
> Zahn notes that the confusion in this phrase (either addition
> of O QEOS, omission of TO
> PNEUMA, or rewriting by Sy-C: O PATHR TW UIW AUTOU?) is due
> to the fact that the scribes
> did not recognize that TO PNEUMA is the subject.
>
> Best wishes
>     Wieland
>       <><
> ------------------------
> Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
> mailto:willker@...
> http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/
>
>
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Hey Paul:

I got a notice from Peter on this also.  Great news to finally get this out.  Do
you know if we will get a complimentary copy, or if we might have to buy one?  I
wrote Peter, but have gotten no reply from him.  (he still may be on a summer
vacation).

Hope all is well with you.  I look forward to seeing you in Toronto.

BTW, a non-scholarly little piece of mine is the new JOHN bible study in the
Interpretation Bible Study series (WJK).  Am currently working on a book on the
various approaches to narrative time in the 4 gospels..... Any thoughts on this
I would love to hear.

I will be speaking at a conference in March with Craig Blomberg.  He is dealing
with historical reliability of John.  I will deal with Johannine priority.  Be
interesting to see how he reacts to ideas of an early John.  Should link up
nicely with his new book.

Mark

Mark A. Matson
Academic Dean, Milligan College
http://www.milligan.edu/Administrative/MMatson/personal.htm


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Anderson [mailto:panderso@...]
> Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 9:28 PM
> To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [John_Lit] John and the Synoptics
>
>
> Dear colleagues,
>
> I hope you've had a good summer.  I wanted to announce, on
> behalf of Peter
> Hofrichter, his new collection of essays gathered from the Salzburg
> Symposium on John in March, 2000.  The title of the book is:
>
> Fuer und wider die Prioritaet des Johannesevangeliums (# 9 in the
> Theologische Texte und Studien series; Hildesheim: Georg Olms Verlag,
> August 2002, 320 pages; 39.80 Euros).
>
> It can be ordered by e-mail from info@..., and more
> information will
> soon be available on the publisher's website at www.olms.de.
>
> See also Professor Hofrichter's new updating of his book: Modell und
> Vorlage der Synoptiker; Das vorredaktionelle Johannesevangelium.
>
> Take care, and all the best for the remaining days of summer!
>
> Cordially,
>
> Paul Anderson
>
> P.S.  I notice Jeff Staley has edited a new volume of essays
> on John and
> Postcolonialism.  Sounds interesting, Jeff!  Care to fill us in on the
> contents and what you feel to be some of the highlights of the piece?
>
>
> SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> ---
> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
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>
>

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Dear John List:

Sorry about my last post.  It was meant for Paul Anderson off list.... but I
goofed.  Please ignore and chalk it up to late afternoon computer idiocy.

Mark Matson

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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May we ask what conference you are referring to in
March at which you and Blomberg will be speaking?
Thanks. Matt Estrada

--- "Matson, Mark (Academic)" <MAMatson@...>
wrote:
> Hey Paul:
>
> I got a notice from Peter on this also.  Great news
> to finally get this out.  Do you know if we will get
> a complimentary copy, or if we might have to buy
> one?  I wrote Peter, but have gotten no reply from
> him.  (he still may be on a summer vacation).
>
> Hope all is well with you.  I look forward to seeing
> you in Toronto.
>
> BTW, a non-scholarly little piece of mine is the new
> JOHN bible study in the Interpretation Bible Study
> series (WJK).  Am currently working on a book on the
> various approaches to narrative time in the 4
> gospels..... Any thoughts on this I would love to
> hear.
>
> I will be speaking at a conference in March with
> Craig Blomberg.  He is dealing with historical
> reliability of John.  I will deal with Johannine
> priority.  Be interesting to see how he reacts to
> ideas of an early John.  Should link up nicely with
> his new book.
>
> Mark
>
> Mark A. Matson
> Academic Dean, Milligan College
>
http://www.milligan.edu/Administrative/MMatson/personal.htm
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Paul Anderson
> [mailto:panderso@...]
> > Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 9:28 PM
> > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [John_Lit] John and the Synoptics
> >
> >
> > Dear colleagues,
> >
> > I hope you've had a good summer.  I wanted to
> announce, on
> > behalf of Peter
> > Hofrichter, his new collection of essays gathered
> from the Salzburg
> > Symposium on John in March, 2000.  The title of
> the book is:
> >
> > Fuer und wider die Prioritaet des
> Johannesevangeliums (# 9 in the
> > Theologische Texte und Studien series; Hildesheim:
> Georg Olms Verlag,
> > August 2002, 320 pages; 39.80 Euros).
> >
> > It can be ordered by e-mail from info@..., and
> more
> > information will
> > soon be available on the publisher's website at
> www.olms.de.
> >
> > See also Professor Hofrichter's new updating of
> his book: Modell und
> > Vorlage der Synoptiker; Das vorredaktionelle
> Johannesevangelium.
> >
> > Take care, and all the best for the remaining days
> of summer!
> >
> > Cordially,
> >
> > Paul Anderson
> >
> > P.S.  I notice Jeff Staley has edited a new volume
> of essays
> > on John and
> > Postcolonialism.  Sounds interesting, Jeff!  Care
> to fill us in on the
> > contents and what you feel to be some of the
> highlights of the piece?
> >
> >
> > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail
> johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail
> johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > PROBLEMS?: e-mail
> johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system
> (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 - Release
> Date: 8/21/2002
> >
> >
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system
> (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 - Release
> Date: 8/21/2002
>
>
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__________________________________________________
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HI there, Mark, nice to hear from you!  I don't know if we'll be getting copies
complimentarily, but I think they will send us copies of our own essays at
least.

Congratulations on your commentary, that's great!  I'll look forward to seeing
it.

Sounds like you and Craig will do well together; he's said some nice things
about my "bi-optic" approach to Mark and John in the IVP Academic Alert, so he
must be abiding in the truth in at least some ways.  I like his approach to
John's historicity, and our discussions on Jesus, John, and History for the next
three years could stir things up a bit.

Here, by the way, is my theory of John's composition, which I'm preparing for
submission to a journal.

Take care, Mark, and thanks for being in touch!

Paul

	 -----Original Message-----
	 From: Matson, Mark (Academic) [mailto:MAMatson@...]
	 Sent: Mon 9/2/2002 2:10 PM
	 To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
	 Cc:
	 Subject: RE: [John_Lit] John and the Synoptics



	 Hey Paul:

	 I got a notice from Peter on this also.  Great news to finally get this out. 
Do you know if we will get a complimentary copy, or if we might have to buy one?
I wrote Peter, but have gotten no reply from him.  (he still may be on a summer
vacation).

	 Hope all is well with you.  I look forward to seeing you in Toronto.

	 BTW, a non-scholarly little piece of mine is the new JOHN bible study in the
Interpretation Bible Study series (WJK).  Am currently working on a book on the
various approaches to narrative time in the 4 gospels..... Any thoughts on this
I would love to hear.

	 I will be speaking at a conference in March with Craig Blomberg.  He is dealing
with historical reliability of John.  I will deal with Johannine priority.  Be
interesting to see how he reacts to ideas of an early John.  Should link up
nicely with his new book.

	 Mark

	 Mark A. Matson
	 Academic Dean, Milligan College
	 http://www.milligan.edu/Administrative/MMatson/personal.htm


	 > -----Original Message-----
	 > From: Paul Anderson [mailto:panderso@...]
	 > Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 9:28 PM
	 > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
	 > Subject: [John_Lit] John and the Synoptics
	 >
	 >
	 > Dear colleagues,
	 >
	 > I hope you've had a good summer.  I wanted to announce, on
	 > behalf of Peter
	 > Hofrichter, his new collection of essays gathered from the Salzburg
	 > Symposium on John in March, 2000.  The title of the book is:
	 >
	 > Fuer und wider die Prioritaet des Johannesevangeliums (# 9 in the
	 > Theologische Texte und Studien series; Hildesheim: Georg Olms Verlag,
	 > August 2002, 320 pages; 39.80 Euros).
	 >
	 > It can be ordered by e-mail from info@..., and more
	 > information will
	 > soon be available on the publisher's website at www.olms.de.
	 >
	 > See also Professor Hofrichter's new updating of his book: Modell und
	 > Vorlage der Synoptiker; Das vorredaktionelle Johannesevangelium.
	 >
	 > Take care, and all the best for the remaining days of summer!
	 >
	 > Cordially,
	 >
	 > Paul Anderson
	 >
	 > P.S.  I notice Jeff Staley has edited a new volume of essays
	 > on John and
	 > Postcolonialism.  Sounds interesting, Jeff!  Care to fill us in on the
	 > contents and what you feel to be some of the highlights of the piece?
	 >
	 >
	 > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
	 > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
	 > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
	 >
	 > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
	 > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
	 >
	 >
	 >
	 > ---
	 > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
	 > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
	 > Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 - Release Date: 8/21/2002
	 >
	 >

	 ---
	 Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
	 Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
	 Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 - Release Date: 8/21/2002


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am particularly intrigued by the title of your introduction:

"Descending from and Ascending into Heaven:
A Postcolonial Analysis of Travel, Space, and Power in John"

Is it possible to read your introduction on-line?

SInce Musa Dube really wrote the intro (I functioned primarily as editor of
the chapter), you should contact her, I think:

DUBEMW@...

I'm afraid my budget will not absorb the $90 cost of your book

YIKES! Paperback is estimated at $28.50 or so (US funds).


Jeff Staley

I also extend my apologies to the group; I thought I was replying to Mark
Matson alone.

	 Paul Anderson

	 PS Nonetheless, here is the line-up for the new John, Jesus and History
Consultation which will run for the next three years at the national SBL
meetings.  Some excellent scholars will be presenting, and I believe it could
play a formative role in ways we think about the Johannine tradition.  All are
welcome to attend!

	 Here's the information from the program for the Toronto Saturday session:

	 John, Jesus and History Consultation
	 4:00 PM - 6:30 PM

	 Theme: How John Became the 'Spiritual Gospel'

	 Tom Thatcher, Cincinnati Bible Seminary, Presiding (10 min)
	 Robert Kysar, Emory University
	 The De-Historicizing of John
<javascript:openWindow('AM_abstract.php3?Proposal_ID=53&Last_Name=Kysar&First_Na\
me=Robert')>  (10 min)
	 Marianne Meye Thompson, Fuller Theological Seminary, Respondent (10 min)
	 Harold W Attridge, Yale, Respondent (10 min)
	 Jaime Clark-soles, Perkins School Of Theology
	 Discussion of Robert Kysar's 'The De-Historicizing of John'
<javascript:openWindow('AM_abstract.php3?Proposal_ID=56&Last_Name=Clark-soles&Fi\
rst_Name=Jaime')>  (20 min)
	 Paula Fredriksen, Boston University
	 The De-Johannification of Jesus
<javascript:openWindow('AM_abstract.php3?Proposal_ID=57&Last_Name=Fredriksen&Fir\
st_Name=Paula')>  (10 min)
	 Mark Allan Powell, Trinity Lutheran Seminary (10 min)
	 Mary L Coloe, Australian Catholic Univ
	 Discussion of Paula Fredriksen's 'The De-Johannification of Jesus'
<javascript:openWindow('AM_abstract.php3?Proposal_ID=90&Last_Name=Coloe&First_Na\
me=Mary L')>  (20 min)
	 Felix Just, Loyola Marymount University
	 Open Discussion
<javascript:openWindow('AM_abstract.php3?Proposal_ID=91&Last_Name=Just&First_Nam\
e=Felix')>  (25 min)
	 Paul N Anderson, George Fox College
	 Getting a Sense of the Meeting
<javascript:openWindow('AM_abstract.php3?Proposal_ID=730&Last_Name=Anderson&Firs\
t_Name=Paul N')>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Mon, 2 Sep 2002 17:10:58 -0400 "Matson, Mark (Academic)"
<MAMatson@...> writes:
>
> BTW, a non-scholarly little piece of mine is the new JOHN bible
> study in the Interpretation Bible Study series (WJK).  Am currently
> working on a book on the various approaches to narrative time in the
> 4 gospels..... Any thoughts on this I would love to hear.
>
Mark:
     I hope you will consider the approach that I have taken -
studying the Fourth Gospel through its use of Mosaic oracles.
I considered the use of terms relating to time (hour, day, three
days, six days, seven days, season, year, in the beginning) as
language used exactly as it is used in the Mosaic texts.  These
terms function as "signs" (pointing to deeper meaning as defined
by their Mosaic contexts) in the Fourth Gospel.

Yours in Christ's service,
Tom Butler, author of
Let Her Keep It: Jesus' Ordination of Mary of Bethany -
A New Approach to the Study of the Gospel of John
Through Its Use of Mosaic Oracles

Dear Paul, Thanks for your information on the John Seminar which I look
forward to attending. I just received the prepublication for my history of
John,s Gospel. If you have a journal they will send you a free copy of the
two volumes for review. Let me know if you know any. Again thanks for your
kindness. Sincerely Sean p. Kealy C.S.Sp.






At 08:29 AM 9/3/02 -0700, you wrote:
> I also extend my apologies to the group; I thought I was replying to Mark
>Matson alone.
>
> Paul Anderson
>
> PS Nonetheless, here is the line-up for the new John, Jesus and History
>Consultation which will run for the next three years at the national SBL
>meetings.  Some excellent scholars will be presenting, and I believe it
>could play a formative role in ways we think about the Johannine tradition.
>All are welcome to attend!
>
> Here's the information from the program for the Toronto Saturday session:
>
> John, Jesus and History Consultation
> 4:00 PM - 6:30 PM
>
> Theme: How John Became the 'Spiritual Gospel'
>
> Tom Thatcher, Cincinnati Bible Seminary, Presiding (10 min)
> Robert Kysar, Emory University
> The De-Historicizing of John
><javascript:openWindow('AM_abstract.php3?Proposal_ID=53&Last_Name=Kysar&Firs
>t_Name=Robert')>  (10 min)
> Marianne Meye Thompson, Fuller Theological Seminary, Respondent (10 min)
> Harold W Attridge, Yale, Respondent (10 min)
> Jaime Clark-soles, Perkins School Of Theology
> Discussion of Robert Kysar's 'The De-Historicizing of John'
><javascript:openWindow('AM_abstract.php3?Proposal_ID=56&Last_Name=Clark-sole
>s&First_Name=Jaime')>  (20 min)
> Paula Fredriksen, Boston University
> The De-Johannification of Jesus
><javascript:openWindow('AM_abstract.php3?Proposal_ID=57&Last_Name=Fredriksen
>&First_Name=Paula')>  (10 min)
> Mark Allan Powell, Trinity Lutheran Seminary (10 min)
> Mary L Coloe, Australian Catholic Univ
> Discussion of Paula Fredriksen's 'The De-Johannification of Jesus'
><javascript:openWindow('AM_abstract.php3?Proposal_ID=90&Last_Name=Coloe&Firs
>t_Name=Mary L')>  (20 min)
> Felix Just, Loyola Marymount University
> Open Discussion
><javascript:openWindow('AM_abstract.php3?Proposal_ID=91&Last_Name=Just&First
>_Name=Felix')>  (25 min)
> Paul N Anderson, George Fox College
> Getting a Sense of the Meeting
><javascript:openWindow('AM_abstract.php3?Proposal_ID=730&Last_Name=Anderson&
>First_Name=Paul N')>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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>UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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>
>

Dear Sean and others,

You're welcome, Sean.  I indeed would like to review it (and will discuss that
with you privately), but for the benefit of others on this list, here's the
blurb I prepared for Mellen Press (needless to say, I'm very impressed):

> "Covering the extensive secondary literature on the Gospel of John is a

> major endeavor, attempted by a few and accomplished by still fewer. Sean

> Kealy's exhaustive treatment of nineteen centuries of Johannine

> interpretation, however, does just that! Kealy not only analyzes

> judiciously the best of modern Johannine interpretation, but he also

> treats the reader to thoughtful analyses of the many ways the Fourth

> Gospel has been interpreted and regarded from the second century on.

> There is no treatment of Johannine scholarship like it--in any

> language--and no serious Johannine library is complete without it.

>

> Paul N. Anderson

***

A second matter that may be of interest to members of our listserve is the
lineup for the Johannine Literature Sections of the Toronto SBL sessions to be
held from November 23-26.  The registration information is available on the SBL
website (http://www.sbl-site.org/Congresses/index.html), so if you'd like to
attend, that site will provide the needed information.

Monday, November 25th

===================================
S25-62
----------------------------------------
Johannine Literature Section
1:00 PM - 3:30 PM

Theme: Theme I (75 min): Review of Adele Reinhartz's "Befriending the Beloved
Disciple: A Jewish Reading of the Gospel of John." New York: Continuum, 2001;
Theme II (75 min) Current Issues in the Gospel of John

Felix Just, Loyola Marymount University, Presiding
Francisco Lozada, Univ Of The Incarnate Word, Panelist
Francis J Moloney, Catholic University Of America, Panelist
Sarah J Tanzer, Mccormick Theological Seminary, Panelist
Adele Reinhartz, Wilfred Laurier University
Robert Kysar, Emory University
Expulsion from the Synagogue: A Tale of a Theory
<javascript:openWindow('AM_abstract.php3?Proposal_ID=948&Last_Name=Kysar&First_N\
ame=Robert')>
Break/recess ,
D Moody Smith, Duke University Divinity School, Respondent
Gail R O'day, Emory Univ Candler Sch Of Theo, Respondent


Tuesday, November 26th

===================================
S26-10
----------------------------------------
Johannine Literature Section
9:00 AM - 11:30 AM

Colleen Conway, Seton Hall University, Presiding
Stan Harstine, Baylor University
Mysticism in the Fourth Gospel: An Evaluation of Research and its Implications
<javascript:openWindow('AM_abstract.php3?Proposal_ID=589&Last_Name=Harstine&Firs\
t_Name=Stan')>  (25 min)
Turid Karlsen Seim, University Of Oslo
The Child-Bearing God
<javascript:openWindow('AM_abstract.php3?Proposal_ID=1640&Last_Name=Seim&First_N\
ame=Turid Karlsen')>
Henry Sturcke, Universitat Zurich
Anonymity in the Fourth Gospel: Arisen by any other name
<javascript:openWindow('AM_abstract.php3?Proposal_ID=1584&Last_Name=Sturcke&Firs\
t_Name=Henry')>  (25 min)
Jeffrey S Siker, Loyola Marymount University
"Johannine Redefinitions of Sin"
<javascript:openWindow('AM_abstract.php3?Proposal_ID=268&Last_Name=Siker&First_N\
ame=Jeffrey S')>  (25 min)
Mary L Coloe, Australian Catholic Univ
Anointing the New Temple (John 12:1-8)
<javascript:openWindow('AM_abstract.php3?Proposal_ID=32&Last_Name=Coloe&First_Na\
me=Mary L')>  (25 min)

***

All the best!

Paul Anderson
Professor of Biblical and Quaker Studies
George Fox University
Newberg, OR 97132

-----Original Message-----
From: Sean P. Kealy C.S.Sp [mailto:kealy@...]
Sent: Wed 9/4/2002 4:55 AM
To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
Cc:
Subject: RE: [John_Lit] John and the Synoptics



	 Dear Paul, Thanks for your information on the John Seminar which I look
	 forward to attending. I just received the prepublication for my history of
	 John,s Gospel. If you have a journal they will send you a free copy of the
	 two volumes for review. Let me know if you know any. Again thanks for your
	 kindness. Sincerely Sean p. Kealy C.S.Sp.






	 At 08:29 AM 9/3/02 -0700, you wrote:
	 >       I also extend my apologies to the group; I thought I was replying to
Mark
	 >Matson alone.
	 >
	 >       Paul Anderson
	 >
	 >       PS Nonetheless, here is the line-up for the new John, Jesus and History
	 >Consultation which will run for the next three years at the national SBL
	 >meetings.  Some excellent scholars will be presenting, and I believe it
	 >could play a formative role in ways we think about the Johannine tradition.
	 >All are welcome to attend!
	 >
	 >       Here's the information from the program for the Toronto Saturday
session:
	 >
	 >       John, Jesus and History Consultation
	 >       4:00 PM - 6:30 PM
	 >
	 >       Theme: How John Became the 'Spiritual Gospel'
	 >
	 >       Tom Thatcher, Cincinnati Bible Seminary, Presiding (10 min)
	 >       Robert Kysar, Emory University
	 >       The De-Historicizing of John
	 ><javascript:openWindow('AM_abstract.php3?Proposal_ID=53&Last_Name=Kysar&Firs
	 >t_Name=Robert')>  (10 min)
	 >       Marianne Meye Thompson, Fuller Theological Seminary, Respondent (10
min)
	 >       Harold W Attridge, Yale, Respondent (10 min)
	 >       Jaime Clark-soles, Perkins School Of Theology
	 >       Discussion of Robert Kysar's 'The De-Historicizing of John'
	 ><javascript:openWindow('AM_abstract.php3?Proposal_ID=56&Last_Name=Clark-sole
	 >s&First_Name=Jaime')>  (20 min)
	 >       Paula Fredriksen, Boston University
	 >       The De-Johannification of Jesus
	 ><javascript:openWindow('AM_abstract.php3?Proposal_ID=57&Last_Name=Fredriksen
	 >&First_Name=Paula')>  (10 min)
	 >       Mark Allan Powell, Trinity Lutheran Seminary (10 min)
	 >       Mary L Coloe, Australian Catholic Univ
	 >       Discussion of Paula Fredriksen's 'The De-Johannification of Jesus'
	 ><javascript:openWindow('AM_abstract.php3?Proposal_ID=90&Last_Name=Coloe&Firs
	 >t_Name=Mary L')>  (20 min)
	 >       Felix Just, Loyola Marymount University
	 >       Open Discussion
	 ><javascript:openWindow('AM_abstract.php3?Proposal_ID=91&Last_Name=Just&First
	 >_Name=Felix')>  (25 min)
	 >       Paul N Anderson, George Fox College
	 >       Getting a Sense of the Meeting
	 ><javascript:openWindow('AM_abstract.php3?Proposal_ID=730&Last_Name=Anderson&
	 >First_Name=Paul N')>
	 >
	 >
	 >
	 >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
	 >
	 >
	 >SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
	 >UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
	 >PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
	 >
	 >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
	 >
	 >



	 SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
	 UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
	 PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com

	 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Colleagues,

I hope this letter finds you well!  As you may be aware, the program for
this year's SBL meeting in Toronto is now available on-line.  As you make
your plans and preparations for the meeting, may I draw your attention to
the inaugural session of the "John, Jesus, and History Consultation" on
Saturday afternoon from 4pm--6:30pm.  Many of you have expressed interest in
this group in the past, and we very much hope that you will be able to
attend.  We expect a large gathering of scholars who are interested in the
Johannine Literature, Historical Jesus studies, and general methodological
issues surrounding the composition-history of ancient gospels.

Because this is our inaugural meeting, our session will focus on an overview
of issues pertaining to scholarship on the composition-history of FG.  Two
papers, one by Bob Kysar and another by Paula Fredricksen, will be
summarized and discussed.  Kysar's paper will address the ways in which John
has come to be seen as the "spiritual gospel," and the implications this has
had on Johannine scholarship.  Fredriksen, as a Historical Jesus scholar,
will then look at the impact these assumptions have carried in contemporary
Jesus research.  Respondents will include Marianne Thompson, Harry Attridge,
Jack Verheyden, and Mark Allan Powell--a formidable line-up.

Program: "How John Became the 'Spiritual Gospel'"
Tom Thatcher--Welcome and Introduction
Bob Kysar--"The De-Historicizing of John"
Respondent: Marianne Meye Thompson
Respondent: Harold Attridge
Discussion of Kysar's Paper
Paula Fredriksen--"The De-Johannification of Jesus"
Respondent: Jack Verheyden
Respondent: Mark Allan Powell
Discussion of Fredriksen's Paper
Open Discussion
Paul Anderson--Meeting Summary

As you can see, we are reserving almost 90 minutes of our program for
discussion from the floor.  We very much solicit your insights and opinions
on the directions this consultation should go.  In many ways, we hope at
this meeting to begin to stake out the future direction of research into the
background and composition-history of the Fourth Gospel.  Your input will be
invaluable.

Many of you are already on our mailing list, and if this is the case you
will receive copies of the two main papers sometime in early October.  If
you are not already on our mailing list and wish to receive copies of the
papers and future announcements, please reply to this message so that we may
add you to our list.  Even if you do not have time to read the papers,
please feel free to attend--we believe that you will still appreciate the
group's discussion of the relevant issues.  Also, please pass this note
along to any friends and colleagues whom you feel might be interested in
this session, or ask them to get in touch with me.

Please feel free to contact me at any point with questions or comments.
Take care.

Respectfully,
--tom

Tom Thatcher
Cincinnati Bible Seminary
2700 Glenway Ave.
Cincinnati, Oh 45204
(513) 244-8172
tom.thatcher@... <mailto:tom.thatcher@...>
"the truth will set you free"

Dear listers

how quiet you are - back to work I suspect.

It was an early theory that John may have been the first Gospel.  (I note
the devotional Readings in St John's Gospel by William Temple in which he
holds this position). We live in a different time of course, yet it seems to
me I noted a presentation in a recent post that spoke of the priority of
John.

On another list (Corpus Paulinum), there has been discussion of the origin
of the Eucharist, and as usual, out of my depth, I asked some unanswerable
questions. John of course doesn't have the institution of the Eucharist, but
it does have the most intimate understanding of unity of the body (6:53,
17:20-26) of any Gospel.

Can someone help me historically or liturgically - What could Jesus have
said at the institution of the Eucharist? Could the dialogue in John 6 on
drinking blood have historical reflections?  Does this necessarily have to
have been derived from Paul and the influence of mystery religions?  That
theory sticks in the craw.  My meanderings are summarized off list on my
homepage under articles. (http://bmd.gx.ca/the_blood_of_the_covenant.htm)

The gist of the question is whether Jesus could have talked as a Jew about
drinking blood. My reflection leads me to a yes answer. The life of the body
is in the blood - without his blood we have no life (John 6:53). I guess I
am looking for ways to refine my questions.

Thanks in advance if this is approachable from another angle. I would be
interested in work done on this from a Jewish point of view with some
insight into the historical and psychological possibilities. Devotionally, I
don't have a problem - but language can get very vague when metaphor takes
over without discipline.

Bob

mailto::BobMacDonald@...
+ + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

Catch the foxes for us,
    the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
for our vineyards are in flower.   (Song 2.15)
http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob MacDonald" <bobmacdonald@...>
To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 11:40 AM
Subject: [John_Lit] Johannine priority


> The gist of the question is whether Jesus could have talked as a Jew about
> drinking blood. My reflection leads me to a yes answer. The life of the
body
> is in the blood - without his blood we have no life (John 6:53). I guess I
> am looking for ways to refine my questions.
>
> Thanks in advance if this is approachable from another angle. I would be
> interested in work done on this from a Jewish point of view with some
> insight into the historical and psychological possibilities. Devotionally,
I
> don't have a problem - but language can get very vague when metaphor takes
> over without discipline.


Just as Jewish literary styles and genres, such as midrash and pesher, are
misunderstood in gentile contexts...keeping in mind that I am the "follow
the Aramaic" guy.....so also is the Aramaic idiom.  Idiom is a cultural
nuance to language which rarely crosses culrural barriers.  In 1st century
Aramaic "lachma" (bread) and "hamara" (wine) are idioms for teaching.
Drinking and eating, in Aramaic, are idioms for learning from a teacher
whose teachings are "bread and wine."  This imagery abounds in Jesus'
sayings with such phrases as:

Feed my sheep
I am the bread of life
What goes in the mouth (whet you are taught) does not defile but what comes
out of the mouth (what you teach) can defile you.
Give us the bread (instruction) we need day to day (the Lord's Prayer)
It is not meet to take the children's (Jews) bread (teachings) and cast it
to the dogs (gentiles).

In Matthew 16:11 the "leaven" of the Pharisees and Sadducees pollutes the
"bread" (teaching).
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall
never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

And, of course, the imagery of the Last Supper where his blood is like his
teachings, spilled out (like the new wine in the old skins).

The disciples will "fast" from the "bridegroom's" teachings when Jesus is
gone and those teachings (wine) cannot be drunk from the "old wineskins"

The Aramaic word used for wine in this case is hamara, a still "foaming
wine."
"new" is also expressed, like the Greek and Coptic, by two words, hadatha
(new) and hadathatha (fresh).

Jesus' body/bread and blood/wine is his teachings.


Jack

Jack wrote:

>>In 1st century Aramaic "lachma" (bread) and "hamara" (wine) are idioms for
teaching. Drinking and eating, in Aramaic, are idioms for learning from a
teacher whose teachings are "bread and wine."  This imagery abounds in
Jesus' sayings with such phrases <<

Thank you, Jack. That is a very helpful reframing of the issues for me.
Thank you for this widening of perspective. (There were those in the Pauline
list that were hoping from input from you also.) There was little Aramaic
discussion on CP except for a few word guesses. Your insight into early
idiom makes the original credible without what might be seen as the
excessive metaphor that I used.

Following the 'teaching' can then simply be seen as the means of growth into
the grace of the unity of the body and the multiple indwellings that are the
prayer in John. (There are enough warnings about failing to see metaphor for
an early or late first century audience.)

Still I find the Eucharistic connection to the death of Jesus as a source of
power attractive - for following teaching needs a source of power especially
when the lessons are difficult.

Again, thanks

Bob


mailto::BobMacDonald@...
+ + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

Catch the foxes for us,
    the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
for our vineyards are in flower.   (Song 2.15)
http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca

Jack, this is interesting:

>In 1st century Aramaic "lachma" (bread) and "hamara"
(wine) are idioms for teaching. Drinking and eating,
in Aramaic, are idioms for learning from a teacher
whose teachings are "bread and wine."<

Can you give references for this?

[Incidently -- and this would require an offlist reply
-- what is the Aramaic cognate for rhp in Genesis 1:2,
i.e., the Hebrew merachepheth, and what is its range
of meanings? I'm writing an article on John Milton's
use of "brooding" to translate this Hebrew term, and
this has led me to look at the range of meanings in
various Semitic languages. If you, or anyone, wants to
reply, please keep it offlist since it's not directly
Johannine.]

Jeffery Hodges

=====
Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
Yangsandong 411
South Korea

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! News - Today's headlines
http://news.yahoo.com

Dear Bob,

I think there is much to commend Jack's understanding of
Jesus' body and blood as his teaching. However, I also think that
to limit them to his teaching is to miss much - if not most - of
what is intended. Feeding on Christ, on his body and blood,
without which one cannot have life, must also be seen in
relational terms. There is a dependence on Christ which is far
more than a dependence on his teachings only, a dependence
which has to do with the whole process of salvation and
reconciliation/union with God (cf. Jn 17).

Jack may not see 'teaching' in the bare sense that I have pictured
it, and I do not want to do him an injustice, but  the fuller image
has not been mentioned and it should be.  At the same time, I do
not see things 'relational'  as being without rational content (i.e.
teaching).

Sincerely,

Kym Smith
Adelaide
South Australia
khs@...

In a message dated 9/15/2002 4:54:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
khs@... writes:


> I think there is much to commend Jack's understanding of
> Jesus' body and blood as his teaching. However, I also think that
> to limit them to his teaching is to miss much - if not most - of
> what is intended. Feeding on Christ, on his body and blood,
> without which one cannot have life, must also be seen in
> relational terms.

Is it possible that there is also a Eucharistic implication in John's
references to eating Jesus' body and blood?

Leonard Maluf


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Leonard,

In response to my request for a (though not solely) 'relational'
understanding of Jesus' teaching regarding the eating and
drinking  of his body and blood, you ask - perhaps with tongue in
cheek:

<<<Is it possible that there is also a Eucharistic implication in
John's references to eating Jesus' body and blood? >>>

Of course there is! But surely a Eucharistic understanding is
primarily a relational understanding. I see the 'Eucharistic'
teaching here as central to the signs and discourses section of
John (2:1 - 11:44). Central to the 'other' large discourse section,
the last supper discourse, is Jesus' teaching about the vine and
the branches (15:1-17). As both of these are central to their
respective sections (I see both sections as macro-chiasms, but
that is another issue) there is, I think, a strong connection
between the two and both are largely relational.

Kym Smith
Adelaide
South Australia
khs@...

on 9/14/02 2:15 PM, Bob MacDonald at bobmacdonald@... wrote:

> Jack wrote:
>
>>> In 1st century Aramaic "lachma" (bread) and "hamara" (wine) are idioms for
> teaching. Drinking and eating, in Aramaic, are idioms for learning from a
> teacher whose teachings are "bread and wine."  This imagery abounds in
> Jesus' sayings with such phrases <<
>
> Thank you, Jack. That is a very helpful reframing of the issues for me.
> Thank you for this widening of perspective. (There were those in the Pauline
> list that were hoping from input from you also.) There was little Aramaic
> discussion on CP except for a few word guesses. Your insight into early
> idiom makes the original credible without what might be seen as the
> excessive metaphor that I used.
>
> Following the 'teaching' can then simply be seen as the means of growth into
> the grace of the unity of the body and the multiple indwellings that are the
> prayer in John. (There are enough warnings about failing to see metaphor for
> an early or late first century audience.)
>
> Still I find the Eucharistic connection to the death of Jesus as a source of
> power attractive - for following teaching needs a source of power especially
> when the lessons are difficult.
>
> Again, thanks
>
> Bob
>
>
> mailto::BobMacDonald@...
> + + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +
>
> Catch the foxes for us,
> the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
> for our vineyards are in flower.   (Song 2.15)
> http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
>
>
>
> SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Dear Jack and Bob:

Not only are bread and wine idioms in Aramaic for teaching etc, the MT uses
them in such a way as well: (Is. 3:1; Prov. 9:5); however, whqt is amazing
is how the Talmudists speak of eating the Messiah "Israel shall eat the
years of Messiah." Next then they question this several ways and Hillel ends
up saying "the Messiah is not likely to come to Israel, for they have
already eaten him up in the Hezekiah era."  Thus even though eating flesh
and drinking blood was repulsive in Israel, some of them thought of such a
thing without a problem.  I wonder how Hillel could say such a thing AND how
the Rabbis did not seem appalled at such an idea unless they understood the
figurative language and IT DID NOT BOTHER THEM?  Certainly Jesus intended
that they understood it this way since he makes his argument after John
6:60f.  "Does this offend you?...What if you see the Son of Man ascend up
where he was earlier?  Then you shall understand how impossible it is to eat
my flesh literally when my flesh is not on Earth.

So, my question:  how immersed was this "eating flesh and drinking blood" in
the Rabbinic schools.  Which schools would have been more likely to swallow
it (nice pun)?  Was it a problem in the Johannine School since it is not
mentioned in the synoptics?

Billy Evans
Hebrew Union College, doctorate courses
University of So. Africa PhD dissertation

Excellent points, Billy, on why the disciples were scandalized on the
hard-do-swallow words of Jesus (yes, I do infer a play on words there).  In the
light of Forestell's important work on John's theology of the cross (not only
his judgment, of course), 6:51 must be an association of Jesus' "bread" with his
flesh given for the life of the world on the cross--directly relating to vss.
53ff.  Bultmann's dividing of verse 51c from the rest of the verse goes against
the common threefold pattern at other key texts in John 6 (vs. 27, for example),
and does not hold up (see pp. 110-136 of The Christology of the Fourth Gospel). 
That being the case, ingesting the flesh-and-blood of Jesus calls for the
willingness to commit oneself to solidarity to Jesus and his fellowship--even if
it involves suffering and loss--and this is why the message was scandalizing. 
They understood full well the martyrological implications of the message, and
these associations were some of the earliest related to emerging baptismal and
eucharistic motifs (see Mk. 10:38-39, for instance).  Bultmann himself connects
verses verses 60ff. with "the way of the cross," and my contention is that this
is why the unit belongs together rather than being separated as Bultmann and
some others have tended to do (see pp. 194-220 -- Raymond Brown especially liked
that section).

In this sense, inferring the subject of vss. 53-58 is a ritualistic requirement,
given the absence of words of the institution in John 13, misses the point,
which is the subject to which all authentic Christian faith and practice points:
solidarity with Jesus and his community, even if it involves a cost.  On this
matter, the Ignatian situation was parallel to the Johannine, while their
approaches to instilling corporate solidarity were obverse.  Ignatius raised the
walls and the value of being on the inside; John raised up the center and
pointed to the priority of abiding with the Lord and his fellowship.

On the earlier dating of John, a la Robinson, Hofrichter and Berger have
produced significant monographs in the last few years arguing in those
directions--these are certainly important works to be reckonned with.  I like
Robinson's gutsy challenge to the scholarly world to rethink its assumptions,
but an early tradition finalized later seems more plausible than asserting that
the finalized version of John had to have been wrapped up in the 60's. My own
view is that the Johannine tradition indeed has its original and autonomous
place among emerging traditions (ie. not dependent on Mark or an alien source),
but that the first edition was prepared around 80-85 CE, with the final edition
being prepared by the editor around 100 (adding the Prologue, the BD passages
and chs. 6, 15-17, and 21).  This does not mean, though, that the origin of the
Johannine material was late-and-only late.  So with you, Billy (and Professor
Goodenough over a half century ago), I think there is a great deal of primitive
material in John, though finalized later.

Thanks so much for the good questions!

Paul N. Anderson

PS Trinity Press International is closing out its remaining stock of my book,
The Christology of the Fourth Gospel; Its Unity and Disunity in the Light of
John 6, so a few more are available on Amazon.com, but the remaining stock will
be distributed in other ways (if you have questions, contact TPI; they're going
rather quickly).  The book will remain in print, of course, from J.C.B. Mohr
(Paul Siebeck) in Tuebingen.  I am also reminded that J. Louis Martyn has
remaining copies of his extremely important text, History and Theology in the
Fourth Gospel for sale (I believe at around $18 a copy) if ordered directly from
him.

-----Original Message-----
From: Billy Evans [mailto:biblewje@...]
Sent: Sun 9/15/2002 1:05 PM
To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
Cc:
Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Johannine priority



	 on 9/14/02 2:15 PM, Bob MacDonald at bobmacdonald@... wrote:

	 > Jack wrote:
	 >
	 >>> In 1st century Aramaic "lachma" (bread) and "hamara" (wine) are idioms for
	 > teaching. Drinking and eating, in Aramaic, are idioms for learning from a
	 > teacher whose teachings are "bread and wine."  This imagery abounds in
	 > Jesus' sayings with such phrases <<
	 >
	 > Thank you, Jack. That is a very helpful reframing of the issues for me.
	 > Thank you for this widening of perspective. (There were those in the Pauline
	 > list that were hoping from input from you also.) There was little Aramaic
	 > discussion on CP except for a few word guesses. Your insight into early
	 > idiom makes the original credible without what might be seen as the
	 > excessive metaphor that I used.
	 >
	 > Following the 'teaching' can then simply be seen as the means of growth into
	 > the grace of the unity of the body and the multiple indwellings that are the
	 > prayer in John. (There are enough warnings about failing to see metaphor for
	 > an early or late first century audience.)
	 >
	 > Still I find the Eucharistic connection to the death of Jesus as a source of
	 > power attractive - for following teaching needs a source of power especially
	 > when the lessons are difficult.
	 >
	 > Again, thanks
	 >
	 > Bob
	 >
	 >
	 > mailto::BobMacDonald@...
	 > + + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +
	 >
	 > Catch the foxes for us,
	 > the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
	 > for our vineyards are in flower.   (Song 2.15)
	 > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
	 >
	 >
	 >
	 > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
	 > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
	 > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
	 >
	 > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
	 >
	 >
	 Dear Jack and Bob:

	 Not only are bread and wine idioms in Aramaic for teaching etc, the MT uses
	 them in such a way as well: (Is. 3:1; Prov. 9:5); however, whqt is amazing
	 is how the Talmudists speak of eating the Messiah "Israel shall eat the
	 years of Messiah." Next then they question this several ways and Hillel ends
	 up saying "the Messiah is not likely to come to Israel, for they have
	 already eaten him up in the Hezekiah era."  Thus even though eating flesh
	 and drinking blood was repulsive in Israel, some of them thought of such a
	 thing without a problem.  I wonder how Hillel could say such a thing AND how
	 the Rabbis did not seem appalled at such an idea unless they understood the
	 figurative language and IT DID NOT BOTHER THEM?  Certainly Jesus intended
	 that they understood it this way since he makes his argument after John
	 6:60f.  "Does this offend you?...What if you see the Son of Man ascend up
	 where he was earlier?  Then you shall understand how impossible it is to eat
	 my flesh literally when my flesh is not on Earth.

	 So, my question:  how immersed was this "eating flesh and drinking blood" in
	 the Rabbinic schools.  Which schools would have been more likely to swallow
	 it (nice pun)?  Was it a problem in the Johannine School since it is not
	 mentioned in the synoptics?

	 Billy Evans
	 Hebrew Union College, doctorate courses
	 University of So. Africa PhD dissertation



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Paul,

Two questions: How much is your book? and, How can one
get in touch with J. Louis Martyn? Thank you.
Sincerely, Matt


--- Paul Anderson <panderso@...> wrote:
> Excellent points, Billy, on why the disciples were
> scandalized on the hard-do-swallow words of Jesus
> (yes, I do infer a play on words there).  In the
> light of Forestell's important work on John's
> theology of the cross (not only his judgment, of
> course), 6:51 must be an association of Jesus'
> "bread" with his flesh given for the life of the
> world on the cross--directly relating to vss. 53ff.
> Bultmann's dividing of verse 51c from the rest of
> the verse goes against the common threefold pattern
> at other key texts in John 6 (vs. 27, for example),
> and does not hold up (see pp. 110-136 of The
> Christology of the Fourth Gospel).  That being the
> case, ingesting the flesh-and-blood of Jesus calls
> for the willingness to commit oneself to solidarity
> to Jesus and his fellowship--even if it involves
> suffering and loss--and this is why the message was
> scandalizing.  They understood full well the
> martyrological implications of the message, and
> these associations were some of the earliest related
> to emerging baptismal and eucharistic motifs (see
> Mk. 10:38-39, for instance).  Bultmann himself
> connects verses verses 60ff. with "the way of the
> cross," and my contention is that this is why the
> unit belongs together rather than being separated as
> Bultmann and some others have tended to do (see pp.
> 194-220 -- Raymond Brown especially liked that
> section).
>
> In this sense, inferring the subject of vss. 53-58
> is a ritualistic requirement, given the absence of
> words of the institution in John 13, misses the
> point, which is the subject to which all authentic
> Christian faith and practice points: solidarity with
> Jesus and his community, even if it involves a cost.
>  On this matter, the Ignatian situation was parallel
> to the Johannine, while their approaches to
> instilling corporate solidarity were obverse.
> Ignatius raised the walls and the value of being on
> the inside; John raised up the center and pointed to
> the priority of abiding with the Lord and his
> fellowship.
>
> On the earlier dating of John, a la Robinson,
> Hofrichter and Berger have produced significant
> monographs in the last few years arguing in those
> directions--these are certainly important works to
> be reckonned with.  I like Robinson's gutsy
> challenge to the scholarly world to rethink its
> assumptions, but an early tradition finalized later
> seems more plausible than asserting that the
> finalized version of John had to have been wrapped
> up in the 60's. My own view is that the Johannine
> tradition indeed has its original and autonomous
> place among emerging traditions (ie. not dependent
> on Mark or an alien source), but that the first
> edition was prepared around 80-85 CE, with the final
> edition being prepared by the editor around 100
> (adding the Prologue, the BD passages and chs. 6,
> 15-17, and 21).  This does not mean, though, that
> the origin of the Johannine material was
> late-and-only late.  So with you, Billy (and
> Professor Goodenough over a half century ago), I
> think there is a great deal of primitive material in
> John, though finalized later.
>
> Thanks so much for the good questions!
>
> Paul N. Anderson
>
> PS Trinity Press International is closing out its
> remaining stock of my book, The Christology of the
> Fourth Gospel; Its Unity and Disunity in the Light
> of John 6, so a few more are available on
> Amazon.com, but the remaining stock will be
> distributed in other ways (if you have questions,
> contact TPI; they're going rather quickly).  The
> book will remain in print, of course, from J.C.B.
> Mohr (Paul Siebeck) in Tuebingen.  I am also
> reminded that J. Louis Martyn has remaining copies
> of his extremely important text, History and
> Theology in the Fourth Gospel for sale (I believe at
> around $18 a copy) if ordered directly from him.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Billy Evans [mailto:biblewje@...]
> Sent: Sun 9/15/2002 1:05 PM
> To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Johannine priority
>
>
>
>  on 9/14/02 2:15 PM, Bob MacDonald at
> bobmacdonald@... wrote:
>
>  > Jack wrote:
>  >
>  >>> In 1st century Aramaic "lachma" (bread) and
> "hamara" (wine) are idioms for
>  > teaching. Drinking and eating, in Aramaic, are
> idioms for learning from a
>  > teacher whose teachings are "bread and wine."
> This imagery abounds in
>  > Jesus' sayings with such phrases <<
>  >
>  > Thank you, Jack. That is a very helpful reframing
> of the issues for me.
>  > Thank you for this widening of perspective.
> (There were those in the Pauline
>  > list that were hoping from input from you also.)
> There was little Aramaic
>  > discussion on CP except for a few word guesses.
> Your insight into early
>  > idiom makes the original credible without what
> might be seen as the
>  > excessive metaphor that I used.
>  >
>  > Following the 'teaching' can then simply be seen
> as the means of growth into
>  > the grace of the unity of the body and the
> multiple indwellings that are the
>  > prayer in John. (There are enough warnings about
> failing to see metaphor for
>  > an early or late first century audience.)
>  >
>  > Still I find the Eucharistic connection to the
> death of Jesus as a source of
>  > power attractive - for following teaching needs a
> source of power especially
>  > when the lessons are difficult.
>  >
>  > Again, thanks
>  >
>  > Bob
>  >
>  >
>  > mailto::BobMacDonald@...
>  > + + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +
>  >
>  > Catch the foxes for us,
>  > the little foxes that make havoc of the
> vineyards,
>  > for our vineyards are in flower.   (Song 2.15)
>  > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail
> johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>  > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail
> johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>  > PROBLEMS?: e-mail
> johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
>  >
>  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>  >
>  >
>  Dear Jack and Bob:
>
>  Not only are bread and wine idioms in Aramaic for
> teaching etc, the MT uses
>  them in such a way as well: (Is. 3:1; Prov. 9:5);
> however, whqt is amazing
>  is how the Talmudists speak of eating the Messiah
> "Israel shall eat the
>  years of Messiah." Next then they question this
> several ways and Hillel ends
>  up saying "the Messiah is not likely to come to
> Israel, for they have
>  already eaten him up in the Hezekiah era."  Thus
> even though eating flesh
>  and drinking blood was repulsive in Israel, some of
> them thought of such a
>  thing without a problem.  I wonder how Hillel could
> say such a thing AND how
>  the Rabbis did not seem appalled at such an idea
> unless they understood the
>  figurative language and IT DID NOT BOTHER THEM?
> Certainly Jesus intended
>  that they understood it this way since he makes his
> argument after John
>  6:60f.  "Does this offend you?...What if you see
> the Son of Man ascend up
>  where he was earlier?  Then you shall understand
> how impossible it is to eat
>  my flesh literally when my flesh is not on Earth.
>
>  So, my question:  how immersed was this "eating
> flesh and drinking blood" in
>  the Rabbinic schools.  Which schools would have
> been more likely to swallow
>  it (nice pun)?  Was it a problem in the Johannine
> School since it is not
>  mentioned in the synoptics?
>
>  Billy Evans
>  Hebrew Union College, doctorate courses
>  University of So. Africa PhD dissertation
>
>
=== message truncated ===


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Thanks, Matt, Professor Martyn's address is:

J. LOUIS MARTYN
124 DOWNS RD
BETHANY, CT 06524

According to Ashton, it is the most important book on Johannine studies since
Bultmann's commentary, and I think he's probably still right, despite the many
ways Jewish/Christian relationships within the Johannine situation have received
more nuanced attention over the last decade or so.

My own book retails for $25, but I just saw some Amazon specials for $15.  I
don't know all the channels from which it will be available, but I do know that
after the remaining copies sell out, the only in-print ones will be available
from WUNT II (Mohr/Siebeck) at around $90, so I just wanted to let my Johannine
colleagues know.

If all else fails, I do have a few that I could sell for $15 plus
postage--please contact individually.  Thanks!

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Estrada [mailto:matt_estrada@...]
Sent: Mon 9/16/2002 1:05 PM
To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
Cc:
Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Johannine priority



	 Dear Paul,

	 Two questions: How much is your book? and, How can one
	 get in touch with J. Louis Martyn? Thank you.
	 Sincerely, Matt


	 --- Paul Anderson <panderso@...> wrote:
	 > Excellent points, Billy, on why the disciples were
	 > scandalized on the hard-do-swallow words of Jesus
	 > (yes, I do infer a play on words there).  In the
	 > light of Forestell's important work on John's
	 > theology of the cross (not only his judgment, of
	 > course), 6:51 must be an association of Jesus'
	 > "bread" with his flesh given for the life of the
	 > world on the cross--directly relating to vss. 53ff.
	 > Bultmann's dividing of verse 51c from the rest of
	 > the verse goes against the common threefold pattern
	 > at other key texts in John 6 (vs. 27, for example),
	 > and does not hold up (see pp. 110-136 of The
	 > Christology of the Fourth Gospel).  That being the
	 > case, ingesting the flesh-and-blood of Jesus calls
	 > for the willingness to commit oneself to solidarity
	 > to Jesus and his fellowship--even if it involves
	 > suffering and loss--and this is why the message was
	 > scandalizing.  They understood full well the
	 > martyrological implications of the message, and
	 > these associations were some of the earliest related
	 > to emerging baptismal and eucharistic motifs (see
	 > Mk. 10:38-39, for instance).  Bultmann himself
	 > connects verses verses 60ff. with "the way of the
	 > cross," and my contention is that this is why the
	 > unit belongs together rather than being separated as
	 > Bultmann and some others have tended to do (see pp.
	 > 194-220 -- Raymond Brown especially liked that
	 > section).
	 >
	 > In this sense, inferring the subject of vss. 53-58
	 > is a ritualistic requirement, given the absence of
	 > words of the institution in John 13, misses the
	 > point, which is the subject to which all authentic
	 > Christian faith and practice points: solidarity with
	 > Jesus and his community, even if it involves a cost.
	 >  On this matter, the Ignatian situation was parallel
	 > to the Johannine, while their approaches to
	 > instilling corporate solidarity were obverse.
	 > Ignatius raised the walls and the value of being on
	 > the inside; John raised up the center and pointed to
	 > the priority of abiding with the Lord and his
	 > fellowship.
	 >
	 > On the earlier dating of John, a la Robinson,
	 > Hofrichter and Berger have produced significant
	 > monographs in the last few years arguing in those
	 > directions--these are certainly important works to
	 > be reckonned with.  I like Robinson's gutsy
	 > challenge to the scholarly world to rethink its
	 > assumptions, but an early tradition finalized later
	 > seems more plausible than asserting that the
	 > finalized version of John had to have been wrapped
	 > up in the 60's. My own view is that the Johannine
	 > tradition indeed has its original and autonomous
	 > place among emerging traditions (ie. not dependent
	 > on Mark or an alien source), but that the first
	 > edition was prepared around 80-85 CE, with the final
	 > edition being prepared by the editor around 100
	 > (adding the Prologue, the BD passages and chs. 6,
	 > 15-17, and 21).  This does not mean, though, that
	 > the origin of the Johannine material was
	 > late-and-only late.  So with you, Billy (and
	 > Professor Goodenough over a half century ago), I
	 > think there is a great deal of primitive material in
	 > John, though finalized later.
	 >
	 > Thanks so much for the good questions!
	 >
	 > Paul N. Anderson
	 >
	 > PS Trinity Press International is closing out its
	 > remaining stock of my book, The Christology of the
	 > Fourth Gospel; Its Unity and Disunity in the Light
	 > of John 6, so a few more are available on
	 > Amazon.com, but the remaining stock will be
	 > distributed in other ways (if you have questions,
	 > contact TPI; they're going rather quickly).  The
	 > book will remain in print, of course, from J.C.B.
	 > Mohr (Paul Siebeck) in Tuebingen.  I am also
	 > reminded that J. Louis Martyn has remaining copies
	 > of his extremely important text, History and
	 > Theology in the Fourth Gospel for sale (I believe at
	 > around $18 a copy) if ordered directly from him.
	 >
	 > -----Original Message-----
	 > From: Billy Evans [mailto:biblewje@...]
	 > Sent: Sun 9/15/2002 1:05 PM
	 > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
	 > Cc:
	 > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Johannine priority
	 >
	 >
	 >
	 >       on 9/14/02 2:15 PM, Bob MacDonald at
	 > bobmacdonald@... wrote:
	 >
	 >       > Jack wrote:
	 >       >
	 >       >>> In 1st century Aramaic "lachma" (bread) and
	 > "hamara" (wine) are idioms for
	 >       > teaching. Drinking and eating, in Aramaic, are
	 > idioms for learning from a
	 >       > teacher whose teachings are "bread and wine."
	 > This imagery abounds in
	 >       > Jesus' sayings with such phrases <<
	 >       >
	 >       > Thank you, Jack. That is a very helpful reframing
	 > of the issues for me.
	 >       > Thank you for this widening of perspective.
	 > (There were those in the Pauline
	 >       > list that were hoping from input from you also.)
	 > There was little Aramaic
	 >       > discussion on CP except for a few word guesses.
	 > Your insight into early
	 >       > idiom makes the original credible without what
	 > might be seen as the
	 >       > excessive metaphor that I used.
	 >       >
	 >       > Following the 'teaching' can then simply be seen
	 > as the means of growth into
	 >       > the grace of the unity of the body and the
	 > multiple indwellings that are the
	 >       > prayer in John. (There are enough warnings about
	 > failing to see metaphor for
	 >       > an early or late first century audience.)
	 >       >
	 >       > Still I find the Eucharistic connection to the
	 > death of Jesus as a source of
	 >       > power attractive - for following teaching needs a
	 > source of power especially
	 >       > when the lessons are difficult.
	 >       >
	 >       > Again, thanks
	 >       >
	 >       > Bob
	 >       >
	 >       >
	 >       > mailto::BobMacDonald@...
	 >       > + + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +
	 >       >
	 >       > Catch the foxes for us,
	 >       > the little foxes that make havoc of the
	 > vineyards,
	 >       > for our vineyards are in flower.   (Song 2.15)
	 >       > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
	 >       >
	 >       >
	 >       >
	 >       > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail
	 > johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
	 >       > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail
	 > johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
	 >       > PROBLEMS?: e-mail
	 > johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
	 >       >
	 >       > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
	 > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
	 >       >
	 >       >
	 >       Dear Jack and Bob:
	 >
	 >       Not only are bread and wine idioms in Aramaic for
	 > teaching etc, the MT uses
	 >       them in such a way as well: (Is. 3:1; Prov. 9:5);
	 > however, whqt is amazing
	 >       is how the Talmudists speak of eating the Messiah
	 > "Israel shall eat the
	 >       years of Messiah." Next then they question this
	 > several ways and Hillel ends
	 >       up saying "the Messiah is not likely to come to
	 > Israel, for they have
	 >       already eaten him up in the Hezekiah era."  Thus
	 > even though eating flesh
	 >       and drinking blood was repulsive in Israel, some of
	 > them thought of such a
	 >       thing without a problem.  I wonder how Hillel could
	 > say such a thing AND how
	 >       the Rabbis did not seem appalled at such an idea
	 > unless they understood the
	 >       figurative language and IT DID NOT BOTHER THEM?
	 > Certainly Jesus intended
	 >       that they understood it this way since he makes his
	 > argument after John
	 >       6:60f.  "Does this offend you?...What if you see
	 > the Son of Man ascend up
	 >       where he was earlier?  Then you shall understand
	 > how impossible it is to eat
	 >       my flesh literally when my flesh is not on Earth.
	 >
	 >       So, my question:  how immersed was this "eating
	 > flesh and drinking blood" in
	 >       the Rabbinic schools.  Which schools would have
	 > been more likely to swallow
	 >       it (nice pun)?  Was it a problem in the Johannine
	 > School since it is not
	 >       mentioned in the synoptics?
	 >
	 >       Billy Evans
	 >       Hebrew Union College, doctorate courses
	 >       University of So. Africa PhD dissertation
	 >
	 >
	 === message truncated ===


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Paul and Billy

Thanks for the pointers. I asked the original question in terms of Johanine
priority due to the discussions and texts that claim that Paul originated
the institution of the Eucharist. I was looking for indications in
Jerusalem's Judaism (especially perhaps around James the brother of Jesus -
perhaps even himself a Nazirite, per Pixner) that eating and drinking had
possible metaphoric referents.

What I see from your discussion is that the metaphoric use of eating and
drinking is in other texts:

Billy mentioned
>  Not only are bread and wine idioms in Aramaic for teaching etc, the MT
uses them in such a way as well: (Is. 3:1; Prov. 9:5);

Proverbs was clear but I couldn't follow the reference to Is 3:1 - could you
explain it further?

and again
> however, what is amazing is how the Talmudists speak of eating the Messiah
"Israel shall eat the years of Messiah." Next then they question this
several ways and Hillel ends up saying "the Messiah is not likely to come to
Israel, for they have already eaten him up in the Hezekiah era."

Have you a reference for this?

Then Paul writes:
>>That being the case, ingesting the flesh-and-blood of Jesus calls for the
willingness to commit oneself to solidarity to Jesus and his
fellowship--even if it involves suffering and loss--and this is why the
message was scandalizing.  They understood full well the martyrological
implications of the message, and these associations were some of the
earliest related to emerging baptismal and eucharistic motifs <<

Paul, you touch on the real point of the question, which is what would be
psychologically or linguistically possible for Jesus in saying the words of
the institution in the synoptics or the words of John 6:53ff (Wine without
price Isaiah 55:1-2)? I imagine he could have seen himself as an atoning
sacrifice. But I see also an extended metaphor in the Johanine gospel and I
wonder how early it could have arisen or for what reason.

When you say
> Ignatius raised the walls and the value of being on the inside; John
raised up the center and pointed to the priority of abiding with the Lord
and his fellowship.

it seems to me you are already comparing writers at the end of the century
and thinking about a later Eucharistic knowledge rather an earlier one.
Bill had asked about Rabbinic schools and then phrased his question in terms
of Johanine and synoptic schools - indicating a later set of congregations
which some scholars would even put post 70.

I remain indebted for your comments.

Bob


mailto::BobMacDonald@...
+ + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

Catch the foxes for us,
    the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
for our vineyards are in flower.   (Song 2.15)
http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca

Right, Bob, I'm inferring (along with Willi Marxsen, "The Last Supper as a
Christological Problem", and others) that there was considerable formalistic
development in the early Christian use of sacramental practice and conventions. 
What seems likely is movement from common table fellowship to a more formalized
and symbolic meal (see I Cor 10-11), but it is not known whether that transition
happened at the same time (or at all) for different groups.  The reason
Bultmann's equation of John 6:51c-58 with Ignatius' Ephesians 20 is significant
is that he argued that Ignatius PHARMAKON ATHANASIAS=Egyptian thaumaturgy, and
that John 6:51c-58=Ignatian PHARMAKON ATHANASIAS, which would make it
incompatible with John's pervasively Christocentric soteriology.  When I looked
hard at Ignatius and at John 6, neither of these assumptions seemed true, and
the thrust of the Johannine text was more parallel to the Mark 8 dictum: if you
deny me before men, so shall I deny you before my Father.  In that sense, it was
neither out of place with the rest of John, nor did the emphasis seem to be
particularly formalistic in its orientation.

Just one more point on teaching: certainly Deut. 8:3 can come into play in the
background here, as the Torah and teaching of God is indeed alimental and as
nourishing as bread.  What is interesting is that for the first time in the
history of Jewish midrash upon the manna feeding (as far as I know), the manna
provided by Moses is regarded as death producing in contrast to the Bread that
God now gives--in Christ.  Here, Bultmann's treatment of 6:35 is right on--all
of human desire for learning, and nourishment, is fulfilled in the Bread that
Jesus gives and is.

Another convention overturned here is the standard manna rhetoric (a la Borgen)
where in all of Philo and most of the Midrashim, manna is used not as the Proem
text, but as a rhetorical trump.  Like the tempter in the Q narratives, the
crowd's incitement to bread-production and king-making is foiled by
Scripture-quoting Jesus, pointing to the yearning of Moses and Isaiah, that all
would be taught of God.  This is not the outmatching of exegetical wits, but the
overturning of exegesis (to paraphrase Martyn) with eschatology.  It is not
Moses who gave, but my Father who gives. (vs. 32)

Take care, and again, thanks for the excellent questions!

Paul Anderson



Then Paul writes:
>>That being the case, ingesting the flesh-and-blood of Jesus calls for the
willingness to commit oneself to solidarity to Jesus and his
fellowship--even if it involves suffering and loss--and this is why the
message was scandalizing.  They understood full well the martyrological
implications of the message, and these associations were some of the
earliest related to emerging baptismal and eucharistic motifs <<

Paul, you touch on the real point of the question, which is what would be
psychologically or linguistically possible for Jesus in saying the words of
the institution in the synoptics or the words of John 6:53ff (Wine without
price Isaiah 55:1-2)? I imagine he could have seen himself as an atoning
sacrifice. But I see also an extended metaphor in the Johanine gospel and I
wonder how early it could have arisen or for what reason.

When you say
> Ignatius raised the walls and the value of being on the inside; John
raised up the center and pointed to the priority of abiding with the Lord
and his fellowship.

it seems to me you are already comparing writers at the end of the century
and thinking about a later Eucharistic knowledge rather an earlier one.
Bill had asked about Rabbinic schools and then phrased his question in terms
of Johanine and synoptic schools - indicating a later set of congregations
which some scholars would even put post 70.

I remain indebted for your comments.

Bob


mailto::BobMacDonald@... <mailto::BobMacDonald@...>
+ + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

Catch the foxes for us,
    the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
for our vineyards are in flower.   (Song 2.15)
http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca <http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca>



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

on 9/15/02 5:48 PM, Horace Jeffery Hodges at jefferyhodges@... wrote:

> Jack, this is interesting:
>
>> In 1st century Aramaic "lachma" (bread) and "hamara"
> (wine) are idioms for teaching. Drinking and eating,
> in Aramaic, are idioms for learning from a teacher
> whose teachings are "bread and wine."<
>
> Can you give references for this?
>
> [Incidently -- and this would require an offlist reply
> -- what is the Aramaic cognate for rhp in Genesis 1:2,
> i.e., the Hebrew merachepheth, and what is its range
> of meanings? I'm writing an article on John Milton's
> use of "brooding" to translate this Hebrew term, and
> this has led me to look at the range of meanings in
> various Semitic languages. If you, or anyone, wants to
> reply, please keep it offlist since it's not directly
> Johannine.]
>
> Jeffery Hodges
>
> =====
> Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
> Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
> 447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
> Yangsandong 411
> South Korea
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! News - Today's headlines
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Jeff
I do not know how to contact you offline so here is a short note:
rkp is used only three times in MT: gen 1:;, jer. 23:9; deut 32:11.
"Hovering" is used to better translate ruah as "wind" instead of "spirit" or
"breath".  Syriac's rageo can mean 'brood over" or  or even "incubate" I
think which connotes the idea of the spirit incubating the world as if it
were an egg: tthis is found in various Phoenician texts.  As you know, I'm
sure, the LXX chose epephereto (epiphero see LSJ) to clear up the issue.
This and the Targums could help you here but this is not the issue.  It
seems to me that you just want to know what "brooding" meant during Milton's
time.  The Oxford Dictionary of the English Language is where you want to
look since Milton would not have access to extant texts that we now have.

My apologies to the group for this non-Johannine exercise.  Can someone tell
me how to respond to someone offline?  thanks
--
William "Billy" J Evans Jr-Nashville
Doctorate Rabbinics, Dead Sea Scrolls, Targums at Hebrew Union College
Doctorate in NT at University of So. Africa
biblewje@...

on 9/16/02 9:42 PM, Bob MacDonald at bobmacdonald@... wrote:

> Proverbs was clear but I couldn't follow the reference to Is 3:1 - could you
> explain it further?
Bob, I hope this helps:
I'll try to explain it this way:  The text says that God is going to remove
the whole stay of bread and all the supply of water.  The following verses
address only the types of people that the town needs.  God seems to be
providing a complete list of those needful occupations that He will remove.
These look like the appellativs of spiritual feeders.  When that happens and
youth has to fill in as teachers, man will turn against man etc.  Thus, the
removal of bread and water seem to suggest that what is removed is in fact
the lifegiving teaching that is essential for peace.  Anyway that is my take
on Isa 3:1f

  however, what is amazing is how the Talmudists speak of eating the Messiah
"Israel shall eat the years of Messiah." Next then they question this
several ways and Hillel ends up saying "the Messiah is not likely to come to
Israel, for they have already eaten him up in the Hezekiah era."

Have you a reference for this?  check Tal. 99.1f

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob MacDonald" <bobmacdonald@...>
To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 11:40 AM
Subject: [John_Lit] Johannine priority


> Dear listers
>
> how quiet you are - back to work I suspect.
>
> It was an early theory that John may have been the first Gospel.  (I note
> the devotional Readings in St John's Gospel by William Temple in which he
> holds this position). We live in a different time of course, yet it seems
to
> me I noted a presentation in a recent post that spoke of the priority of
> John.


INTRODUCTION

In this post, a schema for the development of the canonical gospels is
proposed.  In it, GJohn is later than GMark, but earlier than GMatthew and
GLuke.

FROM PROTO-Q TO Q

In Q Parallels, John S. Kloppenborg postulates that Q consisted of 68 units
(units S1 to S68).

However, his units S31 (Luke 11:27-28), S40 (Luke 12:13-14, 16-21), S43
(Luke 12:35-38), S59 (Luke 15:8-10), and S65  (Luke 17:20-21) are Lukan
passages without Matthean parallels and so, technically, are not a part of
the Q tradition but, rather, a part of the Lukan tradition.

Subtracting  these five units leaves us with 63 units: which is 7x9.

This suggests the possibility that we are dealing with 9 cycles of 7 units
each.

Indeed, when we divide the 63 units into nine cycles of 7 units each, we
find that there are 7 such cycles which consist only of sayings of Jesus and
2 such cycles (cycles 1 and 3) that are a mixed-bag of sayings and other
material

This suggests that there was an original document, Proto-Q, which consisted
of 7x7 = 49 sayings.  That is to say, it consisted of cyles 2 and 4-9. Then,
later, two additional cycles of 7 units each (i.e., cycles 1 and 3), each
consisting of a mixed bag of sayings and other material, were added to form
the final version of Q

Here are the nine cycles

Cycle 1 (mixed bag)
S1 Incipit, S2 Narrative (Luke 3:2-4), S3 Sayings  (Luke 3:7-9), S4 Sayings
(Luke 3:16-17), S5 Narrative (Luke 3:21-22), S6 Dialogue (Luke 4:1-13), S7
Narrative (Luke 6:12, 17, 20)

Cycle 2 (sayings only)
S8 Sayings (Luke 6:20-23), S9 Sayings (Luke 6:27-35), S10 Sayings (Luke
6:36-38), S11 Sayings (Luke 6:39-40), S12 Sayings (Luke 6:41-42), S13
Sayings (Luke 6:43-45), S14 Sayings (Luke 6:46-49)

Cycle 3 (mixed bag)
S15 Dialogue (Luke 7:1-10), S16 Dialogue (Luke 7:18-19, 22-23), S17 Sayings
(Luke 7:24-28), S18 Sayings (Luke 16:16) S19 Narrative (Luke 7:29-30), S20
Sayings (Luke 7:31-32), S21 Narrative (Luke 9:57-60)

Cycle 4 (sayings only)
S22 Sayings (Luke 10:2-12), S23 Sayings (Luke 10:13-15),  S24 Sayings (Luke
10:16), S25 Sayings (Luke 10:21-22), S26 Sayings (Luke 10:23-24), S27
Sayings (Luke 11:2-4), S28 Sayings (Luke  11:9-13)

Cycle 5 (sayings only)
S29 Sayings (Luke  11:14-15, 17-23), S30 Sayings (Luke 11:24-26), S32
Sayings (Luke 11:16, 29-32), S33 Sayings (Luke 11:33-36), S34 Sayings (Luke
11:39b-44, 46-52), S35 Sayings (Luke 12:2-3), S36 Sayings (Luke 12:4-7).

Cycle 6: All Sayings
S37(Luke 12:8-9), S38 (Luke 12:10), S39 (Luke 12:11-12), S41 (Luke
12:22-31), S42 (Luke 12:33-34), S44 (Luke 12:39-40), S45 (Luke 12:42-46)

Cycle 7: All Sayings
S46 (Luke 12::51-53), S47 (Luke 12:54-56), S48 (Luke 12:57-59), S49 (Luke
13:18-21), S50 (Luke 13:24, 26-27), S51 (Luke 13:28-30), S52 (Luke 13:34-35)

Cycle 8: All Sayings
S53 (Luke 14:5), S54 (Luke 14:11, 18:14b), S55 (Luke 14:16-24), S56 (Luke
14:26-27, 33), S57 (Luke 14:34-35), S58 (Luke 15:4-7), S60 (Luke 16:13)

Cycle 9: All Sayings
S61 (Luke 16:16-18), S62 (Luke 17:1-2), S63 (Luke 17:3-4), S64 (Luke 17:6),
S66 (Luke 17:23-24, 26-27, 30, 34-35, 37b), S67 (Luke 19:12-13, 15b-27), S68
(Luke 22:28-30)

Note 1 Some of the Lukan units listed above, upon which the Q units are
based, are smaller than the Lukan units listed by Kloppenborg because some
of his Lukan units contain, besides Q tradition material, some Lukan
tradition material. Where I spotted such Lukan tradition material in his
Lukan units, I deleted it.

Note 2: Some of the sayings units have brief introductory narratives, the
most substantial being in the beginning of S29.

So, to conclude, it is suggested that there originally was a Proto-Q, which
consisted of seven cycles, with each cycle consisting of seven sayings
units.  Then, two more cycles, with each cycle consisting of seven units of
mixted types, were added to it to create a proposed final version of Q.
These two additional cycles are the cycles 1 and 3 in the proposed final
version of Q.

MARK

Cycle 1 is quite unlike any other cycle in the proposed final version of Q,
even Cycle 3, in that it has a historical narrative flow that begins with
John the Baptist preaching and ends with Jesus being tempted by the Devil.

As a result, it introduces a brand new concept, i.e., the concept of having
a historical narrative flow that begins with John the Baptist preaching.

In this regard, it is noteworthy that Mark is a gospel that consists of a
historical narrative flow that begins with John the Baptist preaching and
ends with the women fleeing from the empty tomb.

So, I suggest, the author of Mark was aware of the proposed final version of
Q and knew that its first cycle has a historical narrative flow that begins
with John the Baptist preaching and ends with Jesus being tempted by the
Devil.. This person thought, "Why end the historical narrative flow so
early?  Why not have it continue all the way until the discovery of the
empty tomb by the women?"

It is noteworthy that, according to Kloppenborg, we have this sequence of
Markan-Q parallels:
Mk. 1:2-6 is a parallel to S2
Mk 1:7-8 is a parallel to S3
Mk 1:9-11 is a parallel to S5
Mk 1:12-13 is a parallel toS6.
The above scenario provides an explanation for this: Mark conciously began
his gospel with Cycle 1, consisting of S1-S7, in mind.

FROM MARK TO MATTHEW AND LUKE

In the proposed scenario, copies of both the proposed final version of Q and
Mark circulated among early Christian communities.  Some had copies of
neither of them, some had copies of only one of them, but the rest had
copies of both of them.

In two of the communities having copies of both of them, the idea arose to
create a new document using Mark, Q, and certain community traditions
regarding Jesus.  The result was the writing of Matthew and Luke.

In both gospels, material was added regarding the birth of Jesus and
material was added regarding post-resurrection appearances of Jesus.   This,
in my judgment, is unlikely to be coincidental.  So, I suspect, Matthew and
Luke were created in two rival Christian communities relatively close to
each other, with, perhaps, the Lukan community even obtaining a copy of
Matthew before having Luke written.

WHAT ABOUT JOHN?

I propose that John was written later than Mark, but before Matthew and
Luke.

First of all, as far as I can tell, the author of John was not aware of the
Q tradition material in the postulated Proto-Q, the postulated final version
of Q, Matthew, and Luke.  This suggests that (s)he was unaware of  of these
two postulated gospels, Matthew, and Luke.  Such an apparent unawareness of
Matthew and Luke, further, explains why John contains no birth narrative.

However, the author of John appears to have been aware of the Markan
historical flow narrative: for, after a Prologue, he begins a historical
narrative flow that begins with the preaching of John and continues through
the narrative of the empty tomb: although, admittedly, he does modify Mark's
historical schema some and adds some post-resurrection appearances of Jesus.

So, I think that the author of John knew about Mark and probably possessed a
copy of it.  If so, then perhaps John is intended to either be a correcting
supplement to Mark or else a supplanting gospel for Mark.

Because of this evidence suggesting that the author of John apparently knew
about Mark, but apparently did not know about Matthew or Luke, I suggest
that John was written later than Mark, but before Matthew and Luke.

What do you think?

Frank McCoy
1809 N. English Apt. 17
Maplewood, MN USA 55109

Paul has correctly pointed out that J. Louis Martyn's text is important to have
along with Paul's own book.  I just thought I would add a note that Martyn's
text is coming out in a new edition soon.  I know this because D. Moody Smith is
writing the introduction.  So it will soon be available again in the press.

Mark A. Matson
Academic Dean, Milligan College
http://www.milligan.edu/Administrative/MMatson/personal.htm


>
> PS Trinity Press International is closing out its remaining
> stock of my book, The Christology of the Fourth Gospel; Its
> Unity and Disunity in the Light of John 6, so a few more are
> available on Amazon.com, but the remaining stock will be
> distributed in other ways (if you have questions, contact
> TPI; they're going rather quickly).  The book will remain in
> print, of course, from J.C.B. Mohr (Paul Siebeck) in
> Tuebingen.  I am also reminded that J. Louis Martyn has
> remaining copies of his extremely important text, History and
> Theology in the Fourth Gospel for sale (I believe at around
> $18 a copy) if ordered directly from him.
>
>
>

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