John,

I don't recall if you had a chance to read my two
papers on the vinegar (and food and drink generally)
in John's Gospel, but here's the online place to go:

http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~fjust/John/SBL1999.html

Jeffery Hodges

=====
Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
Yangsandong 411
South Korea

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

John,

Nice to hear from you again.

I hope you are not implying that I changed my profile
name in order to pretend to be another person.  My
specific interests and the way I write about them,
and the fact I always sign my name, should be quite
sufficient for me to be identifiable no matter where
I go.

Perhaps you can offer some opinions as to why the idea
that Samaritan Christians might have been more important
to the early Church than "diaspora Jews"?  Why is this
such a futile topic to discuss?  Is it because there is
zero information on the problem?  Or is it because it is
too "different" an idea for people to get used to?

In the Gospel of John we have all sorts of strange clues
that should go quite a way to at least make us curious:

1) A barrage of references to "the Jews".  While the
"old saw" says this is because the early converts and the
2nd generation of Christians didn't see themselves as
Jews.... imagine how much MORE true this would be for
people who converted from Samaritan families.  The
Samaritans have hated the Jews since the time of Ezra.
This could very well be the "ground zero" for centuries
of anti-semitism reaching right to this very day.

2) Virtually the oldest continuously existing
anti-jewish culture was and still is the Samaritans.
They claim (and with convincing evidence) that the
Jews "edited" the Bible.  Wow.... is that such an
unusual charge to the mind of the modern historian?
The Samaritans would be the perfect audience to
refer to "those Jews".

3) In John we have the offhand comment that Jesus
was a Samaritan.  And Jesus doesn't respond to it, but
defends against another charge.  Why?  Because to him it
is no sin.  He is a Samaritan convert to Judaism, or he
is descended from a family of such converts.  We
know the Hasmoneans performed forced conversions in
Gallilee.

4) Could the parable of the Good Samaritan be, in fact,
a story about Jesus himself?  The Samaritan worries NOT
about purity rules, and other strict taboos.  In fact,
the Samaritan has a downright Greek/modern view of what
is noble and what is right.

5) Jesus makes a special effort to visit and/or convert
Samaritans to his cause.

6) Combine all of this GJohn content with references in
Acts where it is said that the Jerusalem church spread
out into surrounding areas, INCLUDING Samaria, and we
have a pretty amazing network of facts that suggest
Samaritan converts to Christianity were an important
minority in the early church years before Paul started
recruiting gentiles.

And yet, John, you speak as though it is foolhardy to
suggest this significant element within the early church
could have had a special term OTHER than the word "Samaritan".

How about let's put the shoe on the other foot.  The Gospel
of John practically TELLS us that Jesus was a Samaritan.
How well would you do to prove that he was NOT one?

I'm very interested to read how you would respond to this.

Kind regards,

George

On Sat, 9 Feb 2002, historynow2002 wrote:

	 ...

> The Samaritans have hated the Jews since the time of Ezra.

George,

What are you basing this on? I think this view is rather too simplistic
and one-sided.

> This could very well be the "ground zero" for centuries of
> anti-semitism reaching right to this very day.

Regards,

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky  -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian

Yuri,

I didn't realize there would be any doubts about the
rivalry between Samaritans and Jews.

JOSEPHUS:
Josephus discusses AT LEGNTH about the rivarly between
these two groups in Egypt.  The rivalry was so intense,
whether truthfully described or not, he tells of 2 Samaritans
in a debate against 2 Jews.  And the losing side has to DIE.

This is not a casual "my dad can beat up your dad" kind of
dispute.  This is a life or death struggle between the
Samaritans and the Jews.

HISTORY:
And when the Hasmoneans destroy the Samaritan temple,
this is not exactly a form of endearment.

NEW TESTAMENT:
And finally, the New Testament makes it quite clear that
if Jews would be more willing to walk AROUND Samaria to get
to Galilee instead of through it, then there is obviously
some major hostilities bubbling just below the level of
outright war.

You write:
> What are you basing this on? I think this view is rather too
simplistic and one-sided."

What do you see as something more nuanced and even-handed?

I am eager to hear what you have to say.

George

George,
            You don't get it, do you? You're the guy with the theory, its you
that has to prove it. All I am saying (and I hear people much better
qualified than me saying it, too) is that you haven't proved it yet. You
need some solid evidence and more convincing arguments.

JOHN E STATON
www.jestaton.org
jestaton@...

On Sat, 9 Feb 2002, historynow2002 wrote:

> You write:
> > What are you basing this on? I think this view is rather too
> > simplistic and one-sided."
>
> What do you see as something more nuanced and even-handed?
>
> I am eager to hear what you have to say.

George,

As posted to this group on Jul 17, 2001,

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/message/1849

Here's the article by Grabbe that can be read on the Web,

ftp://ftp.lehigh.edu/pub/listserv/ioudaios-l/Articles/lgsamar

I must say that I like his approach. This sure seems like objective
scholarship to me. He's very careful to state how much in this area is
still unknown. Also he stresses that the schism between the Jews and
Samaritans probably wasn't so severe, and didn't take place until much
later than most people think.

[end quote]

Yours,

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky  -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

What are the things of long ago? Tell us, that we may
reflect on them, and know their outcome; or declare
to us the things to come -=O=-  Isaiah 41:22

John,

The very same thing can be said about the people
who discuss was Jesus a man, a divine being, or
both.

In debating class, if you cannot comprehend BOTH
sides of the dispute, you are a failure.

Generations and generations of historians have said
and repeated the same thing over and over.  And now
you say that I have to PROVE something.

I think "discussion" is in order before I have to
worry about PROVING something, don't you?

George

Yuri,

I've sent the article you suggest I read to the printer.
Give me a few days to digest it.

But does that mean that you dispute that the New Testament
presentation that the Samaritans and the Jews disliked each
other?

This tangent is a little off topic, but I'm happy to discuss
it offlist or on it.

The point that I would suggest is still valid is that there
was a distinct difference between Samaritan converts to Christianity
and Jewish converts to Christianity that would have been
palpable even after BOTH groups had become Christian.

And that this "distinction" would have been the more logical
one to "label" than to label disaspora jews vs. non-diaspora
Jews.

George


--- In johannine_literature@y..., Yuri Kuchinsky <yuku@t...> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 9 Feb 2002, historynow2002 wrote:
>
> > You write:
> > > What are you basing this on? I think this view is rather too
> > > simplistic and one-sided."
> >
> > What do you see as something more nuanced and even-handed?
> >
> > I am eager to hear what you have to say.
>
> George,
>
> As posted to this group on Jul 17, 2001,
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/message/1849
>
> Here's the article by Grabbe that can be read on the Web,
>
> ftp://ftp.lehigh.edu/pub/listserv/ioudaios-l/Articles/lgsamar
>
> I must say that I like his approach. This sure seems like objective
> scholarship to me. He's very careful to state how much in this area
is
> still unknown. Also he stresses that the schism between the Jews and
> Samaritans probably wasn't so severe, and didn't take place until
much
> later than most people think.
>
> [end quote]
>
> Yours,
>
> Yuri.
>
> Yuri Kuchinsky  -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku
>
> What are the things of long ago? Tell us, that we may
> reflect on them, and know their outcome; or declare
> to us the things to come -=O=-  Isaiah 41:22

----- Original Message -----
From: "historynow2002" <historynow2002@...>
To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Samaritan Anti-Semitism

This thread, off-topic and, being based on question begging assumptions and
untestable, is officially closed.

Jack Kilmon
Moderator

-----Original Message-----
From: David Powell [mailto:djp@...]
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 3:54 PM
To: Deb; ETai; Grace; Mark Settle; Francis J. Moloney, SDB
Subject: Poem



--

this poem was written by a terminally ill young girl in a
New York Hospital.

It was sent by a medical doctor - Make sure to read what is
in the closing statement AFTER THE POEM.

> > > > > > >>> >SLOW DANCE
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Have you ever watched kids
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >On a merry-go-round?
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Or listened to the rain
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Slapping on the ground?
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Ever followed a butterfly's erratic flight?
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Or gazed at the sun into the fading night?
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >You better slow down.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Don't dance so fast.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Time is short.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >The music won't last.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Do you run through each day
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >On the fly?
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >When you ask How are you?
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Do you hear the reply?
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >When the day is done
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Do you lie in your bed
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >With the next hundred chores
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Running through your head?
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >You'd better slow down
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Don't dance so fast.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Time is short.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >The music won't last.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Ever told your child,
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >We'll do it tomorrow?
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >And in your haste,
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Not see his sorrow?
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Ever lost touch,
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Let a good friendship die
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Cause you never had time
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >To call and say,"hi"
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >You'd better slow down.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Don't dance so fast.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Time is short.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >The music won't last.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >When you run so fast to get somewhere
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >You miss half the fun of getting there.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >When you worry and hurry through your day,
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >It is like an unopened gift....
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Thrown away.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Life is not a race.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Do take it slower
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Hear the music
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Before the song is over.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >PLEASE FORWARD THIS TO HELP THIS LITTLE GIRL.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >ALL FORWARDED E-MAILS ARE TRACKED TO OBTAIN THE TOTAL
COUNT.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Dear All:
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >PLEASE pass this mail on to everybody you know.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >It is the request of a special little girl who
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >will soon leave this world as she has cancer.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Please send this to everyone you know or don't know.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >This little girl has 6 months left to live, and as her
dying
> > > wish,
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >She wanted to send a letter telling everyone to live
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >their life to the fullest, since she never will.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >She'll never make it to prom, graduate from high
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >school, or get married and have a family of her own.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >By you sending this to as many people as possible,
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >you can give her and her family a little hope,
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >because with every name that this is sent to,
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >The American Cancer Society
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >will donate 3 cents per name to her treatment and
recovery
> > plan.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >One guy sent this to 500 people! So I know that we can
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >send it to at least 5 or 6.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Just think it could be you one day. It's not even
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >your money, just your time!
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >PLEASE PASS ON AS A LAST REQUEST
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Dr. Dennis Shields, Professor
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Department of Developmental and Molecular Biology
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >1300 Morris Park Avenue
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >Bronx, New York 10461




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It would behoove List Members to first check out the
vaildity of messages like the following **before** they
are passed on to the List. Why? It is a hoax.

See http://hoaxinfo.com/slowdance.htm

Indeed, I believe it is a violation of List Protocols to
send messages of this sort out before one first validates
them at one of the many Internet Hoax Sites. Claiming
that you received the message from someone you trust is
no excuse for cluttering up mail boxes with what in the
end is garbage.

Yours,

Jeffrey Gibson
---
Jeffrey B. Gibson
1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
Chicago, IL 60626
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Powell [mailto:djp@...]
> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 3:54 PM
> To: Deb; ETai; Grace; Mark Settle; Francis J. Moloney, SDB
> Subject: Poem
>
>
>
> --
>
> this poem was written by a terminally ill young girl in a
> New York Hospital.
>
> It was sent by a medical doctor - Make sure to read what is
> in the closing statement AFTER THE POEM.
>
> > > > > > > >>> >SLOW DANCE
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Have you ever watched kids
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >On a merry-go-round?
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Or listened to the rain
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Slapping on the ground?
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Ever followed a butterfly's erratic flight?
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Or gazed at the sun into the fading night?
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >You better slow down.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Don't dance so fast.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Time is short.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >The music won't last.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Do you run through each day
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >On the fly?
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >When you ask How are you?
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Do you hear the reply?
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >When the day is done
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Do you lie in your bed
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >With the next hundred chores
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Running through your head?
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >You'd better slow down
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Don't dance so fast.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Time is short.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >The music won't last.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Ever told your child,
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >We'll do it tomorrow?
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >And in your haste,
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Not see his sorrow?
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Ever lost touch,
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Let a good friendship die
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Cause you never had time
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >To call and say,"hi"
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >You'd better slow down.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Don't dance so fast.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Time is short.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >The music won't last.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >When you run so fast to get somewhere
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >You miss half the fun of getting there.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >When you worry and hurry through your day,
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >It is like an unopened gift....
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Thrown away.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Life is not a race.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Do take it slower
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Hear the music
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Before the song is over.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >PLEASE FORWARD THIS TO HELP THIS LITTLE GIRL.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >ALL FORWARDED E-MAILS ARE TRACKED TO OBTAIN THE TOTAL
> COUNT.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Dear All:
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >PLEASE pass this mail on to everybody you know.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >It is the request of a special little girl who
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >will soon leave this world as she has cancer.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Please send this to everyone you know or don't know.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >This little girl has 6 months left to live, and as her
> dying
> > > > wish,
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >She wanted to send a letter telling everyone to live
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >their life to the fullest, since she never will.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >She'll never make it to prom, graduate from high
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >school, or get married and have a family of her own.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >By you sending this to as many people as possible,
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >you can give her and her family a little hope,
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >because with every name that this is sent to,
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >The American Cancer Society
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >will donate 3 cents per name to her treatment and
> recovery
> > > plan.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >One guy sent this to 500 people! So I know that we can
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >send it to at least 5 or 6.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Just think it could be you one day. It's not even
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >your money, just your time!
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >PLEASE PASS ON AS A LAST REQUEST
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Dr. Dennis Shields, Professor
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Department of Developmental and Molecular Biology
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >1300 Morris Park Avenue
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >Bronx, New York 10461
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

So, it's a hoax. We'll take your word for it. But garbage??? Did you read it?

Ramsey Michaels

Yes, I read it. What I refered to as garbage is the
appeal to pity it contains, the lie that it embodies
about the ACS, and the real potential for harm
that it creates. Those who fall for the hoax and
send it on in good faith, run the risk of being labeled
not only as incredibly gullible but as among those who,
like the boy who cried "wold", can no longer be trusted
when they pass on something that **is** true.

More important, however, are the issues (1) of whether
messages of this sort, even if true, have any place on
the List and (2) the responsibility of List Members to
validate this sort of message before posting it here.

Yours,

Jeffrey Gibson
---
Jeffrey B. Gibson
1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
Chicago, IL 60626
> So, it's a hoax. We'll take your word for it. But garbage??? Did you read it?
>
> Ramsey Michaels
>
> SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Dear Fr. Just:

I am sending you this email for your approval to the list.  The first
time I sent it it was returned as an error email in my inbox.

Jeffrey Gibson wrote:

Yes, I read it. What I refered to as garbage is the
appeal to pity it contains, the lie that it embodies
about the ACS, and the real potential for harm
that it creates. Those who fall for the hoax and
send it on in good faith, run the risk of being labeled
not only as incredibly gullible but as among those who,
like the boy who cried "wol [d?] f ", can no longer be trusted
when they pass on something that **is** true.


Dear Jeffrey:

It is one thing to criticize someone's behaviour as inappropriate,
and quite another to attack them personally.  You are very
evidently guilty of the latter.  It is in rather bad taste to attack
anyone publicly "ad hominen", particularly when it is completely
unfounded, unjustifiable, and far more inappropriate than the
behaviour being criticized.  In this particular case, one of the
finest list members on any academic list, Fr. Francis J. Moloney,
SDB, Catholic University of America, and President elect of the
Catholic Biblical Association of America, is one of the most
preeminent New Testament scholars living.  To suggest that he
is "incredibly gullible" and "can no longer be trusted when they
pass on something that **is** true." is outlandish, risible, and far
more out of line than his humble efforts to raise a few measly
dollars ($0.03 x 259 = $7.77) for a charitable cause.  Knowing of
Fr. Moloney's superior and impeccable moral and intellecual
character and integrity I cannot help but think you owe him a
public apology.  But, I must call attention to the fact that you do
have a tendency to fly off at the handle and treat others in very
abusive ways.  This comment of mine is certainly not
unwarranted.  One case, out of many, I can point to is your public
posting on ioudaios-l, in which you, in an effort to demean me,
characterized me as: " Yuri Kuchinsky with a degree!"  Now, in
that extremely unkind statement  (see ioudaios-l File 0110a:
"He's Yuri Kuchinsky with a degree!") you not only " ad hominem"
me, but Yuri Kuchinsky, simultaneously!

To get a copy of that posting send an email to:

listserv@...

SEARCH ioudaios-l/archives Kuchinsky

It is the last record in the very lengthy return email.

My copy is pasted here:

Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:13:31 EST
Reply-to: listproc@...
From: "Lehigh University List Server"
<listproc@...> | Block Address  | Add to Address Book
To: jlupia2@...
Subject: SEARCH ioudaios-l/archives kuchinsky


Matches for pattern 'kuchinsky'...

--- Archive: archives (path: ioudaios-l/archives)

[snip]

>>> File 0110a:
He's Yuri Kuchinsky with a degree!
<<< End of matches in file 0110a


Now, I am not a litigious person, but perhaps, this is my own
weakness and what makes me "incredibly gullible".  But, who is
to stop Fr. Moloney or Yuri Kuchinsky from suing you for the
public scandal and defamation to their good moral characters?
Regarding Fr. Moloney's posting, I suggest that he did this out of
pure kindness, compassion, and decency of heart, moved to pity
suffering individuals, taking proactive recourse to effectuate a
positive change. Now that takes courage and guts, and is
certainly not "garbage", but the very thing I would hope that all
decent people everywhere would grow to that moral stature.

Recently, I posted to the Johannine_Literature list my take on the
the "drink motif" in the four Gospels in the Passion Narrative
(PN).  This post was originally sent to CrossTalk2, your list!  It
was never posted.  I several times over a period of two days.  Still
never posted!  People can come to whatever conclusions they
want about this, I suppose.  However, this was not the first time a
posting of mine to that list was censured and never posted.
Now, that posting on the "drink motif" was to show
archaeological and historical evidence as a basis for the "drink
motif" being supporting grounds for its historical authenticity,
either in its present form or redacted by the four Evangelists in
their own unique manner, to render pesherim as evidence that
Jesus was indeed the expected Messiah.  Yet, that posting never
made it the your list.  This might suggest that your own capacity
as a moderator might indeed be impaired, or biased, I am not
sure, but it is highly suggestive as such.  Yet, when it is
repeatedly a phenomenon experienced one begins to wonder.

Cordially,

John

John N. Lupia

Dear Everyone:

Let's keep this in its proper (irrelevant) place.  I am not an "expert"
in IT, and do not have the critical eye of those who are.  The person
who sent the poem to me was a dear friend, and a first-class human being
(in Australia).  I have informed him of the response from a number of
you ... and not just Jeffrey.  Let's leave it at that.  I cannot
understand how I got it on the list,  but put that down to my age and
inability to handle IT properly.

Blessings ... and let's keep doing good work with the things that really
matter.

Regards,

Frank Moloney

-----Original Message-----
From: jlupia2 [mailto:JLupia2@...]
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 1:02 PM
To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [John_Lit] FW: Poem


Dear Fr. Just:

I am sending you this email for your approval to the list.  The first
time I sent it it was returned as an error email in my inbox.

Jeffrey Gibson wrote:

Yes, I read it. What I refered to as garbage is the
appeal to pity it contains, the lie that it embodies
about the ACS, and the real potential for harm
that it creates. Those who fall for the hoax and
send it on in good faith, run the risk of being labeled
not only as incredibly gullible but as among those who,
like the boy who cried "wol [d?] f ", can no longer be trusted
when they pass on something that **is** true.


Dear Jeffrey:

It is one thing to criticize someone's behaviour as inappropriate,
and quite another to attack them personally.  You are very
evidently guilty of the latter.  It is in rather bad taste to attack
anyone publicly "ad hominen", particularly when it is completely
unfounded, unjustifiable, and far more inappropriate than the
behaviour being criticized.  In this particular case, one of the
finest list members on any academic list, Fr. Francis J. Moloney,
SDB, Catholic University of America, and President elect of the
Catholic Biblical Association of America, is one of the most
preeminent New Testament scholars living.  To suggest that he
is "incredibly gullible" and "can no longer be trusted when they
pass on something that **is** true." is outlandish, risible, and far
more out of line than his humble efforts to raise a few measly
dollars ($0.03 x 259 = $7.77) for a charitable cause.  Knowing of
Fr. Moloney's superior and impeccable moral and intellecual
character and integrity I cannot help but think you owe him a
public apology.  But, I must call attention to the fact that you do
have a tendency to fly off at the handle and treat others in very
abusive ways.  This comment of mine is certainly not
unwarranted.  One case, out of many, I can point to is your public
posting on ioudaios-l, in which you, in an effort to demean me,
characterized me as: " Yuri Kuchinsky with a degree!"  Now, in
that extremely unkind statement  (see ioudaios-l File 0110a:
"He's Yuri Kuchinsky with a degree!") you not only " ad hominem"
me, but Yuri Kuchinsky, simultaneously!

To get a copy of that posting send an email to:

listserv@...

SEARCH ioudaios-l/archives Kuchinsky

It is the last record in the very lengthy return email.

My copy is pasted here:

Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:13:31 EST
Reply-to: listproc@...
From: "Lehigh University List Server"
<listproc@...> | Block Address  | Add to Address Book
To: jlupia2@...
Subject: SEARCH ioudaios-l/archives kuchinsky


Matches for pattern 'kuchinsky'...

--- Archive: archives (path: ioudaios-l/archives)

[snip]

>>> File 0110a:
He's Yuri Kuchinsky with a degree!
<<< End of matches in file 0110a


Now, I am not a litigious person, but perhaps, this is my own
weakness and what makes me "incredibly gullible".  But, who is
to stop Fr. Moloney or Yuri Kuchinsky from suing you for the
public scandal and defamation to their good moral characters?
Regarding Fr. Moloney's posting, I suggest that he did this out of
pure kindness, compassion, and decency of heart, moved to pity
suffering individuals, taking proactive recourse to effectuate a
positive change. Now that takes courage and guts, and is
certainly not "garbage", but the very thing I would hope that all
decent people everywhere would grow to that moral stature.

Recently, I posted to the Johannine_Literature list my take on the
the "drink motif" in the four Gospels in the Passion Narrative
(PN).  This post was originally sent to CrossTalk2, your list!  It
was never posted.  I several times over a period of two days.  Still
never posted!  People can come to whatever conclusions they
want about this, I suppose.  However, this was not the first time a
posting of mine to that list was censured and never posted.
Now, that posting on the "drink motif" was to show
archaeological and historical evidence as a basis for the "drink
motif" being supporting grounds for its historical authenticity,
either in its present form or redacted by the four Evangelists in
their own unique manner, to render pesherim as evidence that
Jesus was indeed the expected Messiah.  Yet, that posting never
made it the your list.  This might suggest that your own capacity
as a moderator might indeed be impaired, or biased, I am not
sure, but it is highly suggestive as such.  Yet, when it is
repeatedly a phenomenon experienced one begins to wonder.

Cordially,

John

John N. Lupia



SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Dear Colleagues,

Since I'm from Los Angeles, let me quote Rodney King: "Why can't we all just
get along?"

More seriously and practically:

1) If you send a message to "johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com", it
gets sent not only to me, but to the other group moderators as well.  If you
want to send a truly "private" message to me alone, send it to
"fjust@..."

2) If you send a message to "johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com", it
usually gets sent out to over 250 people - so please be careful what you
send to which address!

3) Messages with attachments and messages sent to multiple addresses (which
are often spam or junk mail) are normally filtered out by the Yahoo!Groups
software.  But if, on occasion, an inappropriate message does get through to
the whole group, I'd ask that everyone simply IGNORE it rather than make any
type of reaction to it.

4) If you have any complaints about anyone or anything on this list, please
address your complaint to the group owners/moderators OFF-LIST.  This is an
essential protocol, for the sake of all group members (not to mention
individual reputations!).

Peace to you, one and all!
Felix
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Felix Just, S.J., Ph.D. -- Director
Center for Religion and Spirituality
Loyola Marymount University
One LMU Drive, Suite 1840
Los Angeles, CA 90045-2659
(310) 338-2799 FAX: 338-2706
<http://conted.lmu.edu/religion/>
<http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~fjust/>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


> -----Original Message-----
> From: jlupia2 [mailto:JLupia2@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 10:02 AM
> To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] FW: Poem
>
>
> Dear Fr. Just:
>
> I am sending you this email for your approval to the list.  The first
> time I sent it it was returned as an error email in my inbox.
>

Dear friends,

I would like to draw your attention to the following two passages in the
Gospel of John.

John 1:31 (RSV)
I myself did not know him; but for this I came
baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to
Israel."

John 3:26 (RSV)
26   And they came to John, and said to him, "Rabbi,
he who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you
bore witness, here he is, baptizing, and all are going to
him."

In these two passages, there's no indication that Jesus was baptised by
John the Baptist. And yet in the Magdalene Gospel, a unique medieval
biblical text that I have now translated for the first time, these
passages are quite different. In fact, according to these two Magdalene
passages, Jesus _was_ baptised by John the Baptist.

the Magdalene Gospel (ms Pepys 2498) ~ translated by Yuri Kuchinsky
      http://www.styx.org/yuku/pepys/mag.html

MG 9:3 -- "And so that to bear witness to him, I came to baptise him."
(Parallel to Jn 1:31.)

MG 12:4 -- "And [the disciples] came to John, and told him that he, who
was baptised by him in the river Jordan, baptised now in Judea..."
(Parallel to Jn 3:26.)

In fact, this seems like part of a wide pattern in the Magdalene Gospel --
in this document, Jesus and John the Baptist are generally portrayed as
being a lot closer together. In contrast, in the canonical gospels, there
seems to be a clear pattern of distancing Jesus from John.

So these are only two among the 45 passages that are more friendly to Jews
and Judaism that I've found in the Magdalene Gospel. In my view, these
passages demonstrate quite clearly that MG represents an ancient
Jewish-Christian document -- the text that may be generally more primitive
than our canonical Jn.

This list of 45 begins with the passages where the family of Jesus, his
mother, his disciples, John the Baptist, and the disciples of John are all
treated in a more positive light, compared to the canonicals. Then, there
are also the passages where other Jews are also treated in more positive
light -- and this includes the Pharisees and the scribes. Passages where
there is a much closer association between Jesus, John the Baptist, and
their respective disciples are also included, along with those where the
people of Israel welcome the teachings of Jesus a lot more warmly than in
the Greek text.

And in turn, these 45 passages belong to the 80 Magdalene Gospel passages,
as listed and analysed in my new book, that are quite clearly more
primitive than the parallel canonical passages.

All these items seem to indicate quite clearly that the Magdalene Gospel
could not have been some medieval production. All these indicators of
primitivity are the directional indicators that will be very hard to
reverse.

Best wishes,

Yuri.

Yuri.

The future of early Christianity? -- THE MAGDALENE GOSPEL: A JOURNEY
BEHIND THE NEW TESTAMENT, by Yuri Kuchinsky -- a new book that includes
the first ever translation of what seems like the earliest Christian
gospel of them all -- http://www.styx.org/yuku/pepys/mgj.htm

Biblical history list http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loisy/

Reminder:
The deadline for submitting paper proposals for the November 2002 meeting of
the Society of Biblical Literature is March 1, 2002 (this Friday).

For the sessions of the Johannine Literature Section, please see
http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/faculty/fjust/John/SBL.html

For other info about the SBL Meeting, see
http://www.sbl-site2.org/Congresses/AM/AM_Call_Front_Page.php3

Felix
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Felix Just, S.J., Ph.D. - Director
Center for Religion and Spirituality
Loyola Marymount University
One LMU Drive, Suite 1840
Los Angeles, CA 90045-2659
(310) 338-2799; FAX (310) 338-2706
<http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~fjust>
<http://conted.lmu.edu/religion>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




NTMail K12 - the Mail Server for Education

Yuri wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------
John 1:31 (RSV)
I myself did not know him; but for this I came
baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to
Israel."

John 3:26 (RSV)
26   And they came to John, and said to him, "Rabbi,
he who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you
bore witness, here he is, baptizing, and all are going
to him."

In these two passages, there's no indication that
Jesus was baptised by John the Baptist. And yet in the
Magdalene Gospel, a unique medieval biblical text that
I have now translated for the first time, these
passages are quite different. In fact, according to
these two Magdalene passages, Jesus _was_ baptised by
John the Baptist.

The Magdalene Gospel (ms Pepys 2498) ~ translated by
Yuri Kuchinsky http://www.styx.org/yuku/pepys/mag.html

MG 9:3 -- "And so that to bear witness to him, I came
to baptise him." (Parallel to Jn 1:31.)

MG 12:4 -- "And [the disciples] came to John, and told
him that he, who was baptised by him in the river
Jordan, baptised now in Judea..." (Parallel to Jn
3:26.)
-------------------------------------------------------

[By the way, Yuri, here's a note about English
grammar: The "who was baptised..." clause is a
restrictive relative clause and CANNOT have any commas
setting it off.]

Yuri, I would think that these differences could be
explained by reference to the synoptics, which
explicitly provide the information that Jesus was
baptized by John. This coheres with the view that the
MG is a harmonization of the gospels.

MG 9:3 looks like an addition to John 1:31 to
emphasize that the baptism was part of John the
Baptist's witness to Jesus as the Son of God and not a
baptism for the forgiveness of Jesus's sins.

MG 12:4 looks like it draws from the synoptic
parallels Mt. 3:13/Mk. 1:9/[Lk. 3:21].

What I find interesting is a remark in John 3:26 that
is lost in MG 12:4 (in the passage that you provided
above). John 3:26 says that Jesus was "with ... [John]
beyond the Jordan." MG 12:4 says only that Jesus was
baptized by John in the Jordan. John 3:26 thus appears
to suggest a closer relationship between John and
Jesus than MG 12:4 does. This would seem to be a
counterexample to your thesis that the MG shows Jesus
and John as closer.

Jeffery Hodges

=====
Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
Yangsandong 411
South Korea

__________________________________________________
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Dear Yuri,

> John 1:31 (RSV)
> John 3:26 (RSV)
> In these two passages, there's no indication that Jesus was
baptised by > John the Baptist.

I cannot say anything about the Magdalene Gospel, although
Jeffery's comment that it is a synchronisation of John with the
Synoptics seems a reasonable explanation for the material it
contains that the FG has omitted. I suspect that 1:29-34 has
sufficient in it to imply that it was through his baptising – with the
subsequent descent of the Spirit – that John identified the Christ.

I would suggest another reason why John did not include the
actual baptism, however. As I have already stated on this forum, I
believe that John used Genesis 1&2 as a structure for his
gospel from 1:1 – 20:29. For the most part, that structure is
reflected in the `events' of the FG. In and around the events, John
includes a considerable amount of discourse material. Had
John included the `event' of the baptism, he would have had to fit
it into the Genesis structure. By including only discourse `about'
the baptism, John was able to imply the fact of it without having
to justify it in the Genesis structure (which did not allow for it).

The sudden and seemingly out of place introduction of JB in
1:6-8 is thought by many to be a piece of displaced text. The
Genesis structure shows that this is not the case. Scholars
acknowledge the connection between Jn 1:1-5  and Gen 1:1-2a
but leave it there. It is the introduction of JB that continues the
parallel. In Gen 2b  "…the Spirit of God was moving over the face
of the waters"; with JB we have the Spirit of God descending over
the waters of the Jordan. The whole passage from 1:6-34, then,
allows for this to be expressed. John had more to say about the
Word (i.e. 1:9-18) but introduced JB first to secure the Genesis
structure.

Sincerely,

Kym Smith
Adelaide
South Australia
khs@...

This is on John, though not canonical Johannine literature.  I once
heard a story abut JOhn that is extracanonical . I've been unable to
confirm this anywhere, and I'm wondering if anyone has an idea where I
might find this tradition, or if the person who repeated it was giving a
bogus account.  The account goes like this.  John is in Ephesus.  They
carry him into the Christian assembly on a mat because he can't walk
anymore, and ask him to offer a word of exhortation. He sits up and says
"Love one another" and lies back down, and is carried out.  They bring
him in to another meeting, and ask him for a word of exhortation. He
sits up and says "Love one another," lies back down and is carried out.
This happens every time they bring John into the Christian assembly.
Finally, they ask John when he is going to teach them something new, and
he replies, "When you've learned to love one another, we'll go to
something else."  Is this an actual, known tradition (not to say
historical), or did the person who said this, or whomever he read, make
it up?  I don't remember anything like this from reading the Church
Fathers, but maybe it's in some apocryphal work.  Thanks.

Ken

Dear Ken,

Jerome, it is, who recorded of the aged John that he was carried
to assemblies and said little more than 'love one another'. It is in
his Commentary on Galatians 6:10 and can be found in  The
Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Abingdon, 1962, vol. 2, p.
954.

I cannot recall the second part about teaching something new,
but you can check out the first part, at least. Perhaps the other is
there.

Kym Smith
Adelaide
South Australia
khs@...

Kym, thanks much.  I'm relieved to know it wasn't totally apocryphal.


Ken

kymhsm wrote:

> Dear Ken,
>
> Jerome, it is, who recorded of the aged John that he was carried
> to assemblies and said little more than 'love one another'. It is in
> his Commentary on Galatians 6:10 and can be found in  The
> Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Abingdon, 1962, vol. 2, p.
> 954.
>
> I cannot recall the second part about teaching something new,
> but you can check out the first part, at least. Perhaps the other is
> there.
>
> Kym Smith
> Adelaide
> South Australia
> khs@...
>
> SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

At 06:54 PM 2/27/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>    This is on John, though not canonical Johannine literature.  I once
>heard a story abut JOhn that is extracanonical . I've been unable to
>confirm this anywhere, and I'm wondering if anyone has an idea where I
>might find this tradition, or if the person who repeated it was giving a
>bogus account.  The account goes like this.  John is in Ephesus.  They
>carry him into the Christian assembly on a mat because he can't walk
>anymore, and ask him to offer a word of exhortation. He sits up and says
>"Love one another" and lies back down, and is carried out.  They bring
>him in to another meeting, and ask him for a word of exhortation. He
>sits up and says "Love one another," lies back down and is carried out.
>This happens every time they bring John into the Christian assembly.
>Finally, they ask John when he is going to teach them something new, and
>he replies, "When you've learned to love one another, we'll go to
>something else."  Is this an actual, known tradition (not to say
>historical), or did the person who said this, or whomever he read, make
>it up?  I don't remember anything like this from reading the Church
>Fathers, but maybe it's in some apocryphal work.  Thanks.
>
>Ken

Ken,
I don't know which way the arrow points here, but I've heard essentially
the same story told of a new(?) priest delivering the same sermon ad
infinitum, with the same eventual question and a similar response. Is this
a back-formation using the Jerome tradition?
Bob

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kenneth Litwak" <kdlitwak@...>
To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 8:54 PM
Subject: [John_Lit] Johannine tradition


>    This is on John, though not canonical Johannine literature.  I once
> heard a story abut JOhn that is extracanonical . I've been unable to
> confirm this anywhere, and I'm wondering if anyone has an idea where I
> might find this tradition, or if the person who repeated it was giving a
> bogus account.  The account goes like this.  John is in Ephesus.  They
> carry him into the Christian assembly on a mat because he can't walk
> anymore, and ask him to offer a word of exhortation. He sits up and says
> "Love one another" and lies back down, and is carried out.  They bring
> him in to another meeting, and ask him for a word of exhortation. He
> sits up and says "Love one another," lies back down and is carried out.
> This happens every time they bring John into the Christian assembly.
> Finally, they ask John when he is going to teach them something new, and
> he replies, "When you've learned to love one another, we'll go to
> something else."  Is this an actual, known tradition (not to say
> historical), or did the person who said this, or whomever he read, make
> it up?  I don't remember anything like this from reading the Church
> Fathers, but maybe it's in some apocryphal work.  Thanks.

Actually, that tradition comes to us from Jerome, Ken.  John was an old man
in Ephesus and many pilgrims would come to get a glimpse of the last living
disciple.  John would have to be carried in to the church in the arms of
disciples. He would never say anything more than "Little children, love one
another."  When the disciples wearied of hearing the same thing all the
time, they asked, "Master, why do you always say this?"  His reply was "It
is the Lord's command and if this alone be done, it is enough!"

Jack


-----
______________________________________________
Dakma dabadton l'chad min haleyn achi zoreh li hav abadton

Jack Kilmon
San Marcos, Tx
jkilmon@...

http://www.historian.net

sharing a meal for free.
http://www.thehungersite.com/

In a message dated 2/27/2002 2:02:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, yuku@...
writes:

<< And yet in the Magdalene Gospel, a unique medieval
  biblical text that I have now translated for the first time, these
  passages are quite different. In fact, according to these two Magdalene
  passages, Jesus _was_ baptised by John the Baptist. >>

So too in Joseph Smith's "Inspired Version" of the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter Day Saints, at least in John 1:31: "And John bare record, saying; When
he was baptized of me, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove,
and it abode on him."


Ramsey Michaels

On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:
> Yuri wrote:

> The Magdalene Gospel (ms Pepys 2498) ~ translated by
> Yuri Kuchinsky http://www.styx.org/yuku/pepys/mag.html
>
> MG 9:3 -- "And so that to bear witness to him, I came
> to baptise him." (Parallel to Jn 1:31.)
>
> MG 12:4 -- "And [the disciples] came to John, and told
> him that he, who was baptised by him in the river
> Jordan, baptised now in Judea..." (Parallel to Jn
> 3:26.)
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> [By the way, Yuri, here's a note about English
> grammar: The "who was baptised..." clause is a
> restrictive relative clause and CANNOT have any commas
> setting it off.]

Yes, Jeffery, I can see my mistake now. Thanks for the correction.

> Yuri, I would think that these differences could be
> explained by reference to the synoptics, which
> explicitly provide the information that Jesus was
> baptized by John. This coheres with the view that the
> MG is a harmonization of the gospels.
>
> MG 9:3 looks like an addition to John 1:31 to
> emphasize that the baptism was part of John the
> Baptist's witness to Jesus as the Son of God and not a
> baptism for the forgiveness of Jesus's sins.
>
> MG 12:4 looks like it draws from the synoptic
> parallels Mt. 3:13/Mk. 1:9/[Lk. 3:21].

There are quite a few MG passages that are harmonizations of the gospels.
But also, it's quite clear that a lot of MG passages are not
harmonizations -- rather they represent straight texts from single
gospels. These two passages seem to fall in the latter category, because
they lack any real evidence of harmonization with the Synoptics. The
feature that you think may be a harmonisation is the only feature that may
be interpreted in such a way.

Also, as I wrote in my previous post, these two passages are part of a
clear trend in the Magdalene Gospel -- in this document, Jesus and John
the Baptist are generally portrayed as being a lot closer together. MG
actually includes quite a few details of this nature that are absent from
all 4 canonical gospels. So, clearly, harmonization will not explain such
details in any way.

> What I find interesting is a remark in John 3:26 that
> is lost in MG 12:4 (in the passage that you provided
> above). John 3:26 says that Jesus was "with ... [John]
> beyond the Jordan." MG 12:4 says only that Jesus was
> baptized by John in the Jordan. John 3:26 thus appears
> to suggest a closer relationship between John and
> Jesus than MG 12:4 does. This would seem to be a
> counterexample to your thesis that the MG shows Jesus
> and John as closer.

Well, this is something that can be profitably discussed. Namely, which
version of this passage tends to suggest a closer relationship between
John and Jesus. Can we say that (a) Jesus being baptised by John suggests
a closer relationship between the two, or that (b) Jesus merely spending
some time with John suggests a closer relationship between them? Myself, I
vote for (a).

Also, I would like to hear your opinion as to why the baptism of Jesus by
John is absent in Jn. Do you think it possible that some early version of
Jn in fact did feature Jesus being baptised by John?

Best wishes,

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky  -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian

On Thu, 28 Feb 2002, kymhsm wrote:

> I would suggest another reason why John did not include the actual
> baptism, however. As I have already stated on this forum, I believe
> that John used Genesis 1&2 as a structure for his gospel from 1:1 -
> 20:29. For the most part, that structure is reflected in the `events'
> of the FG. In and around the events, John includes a considerable
> amount of discourse material. Had John included the `event' of the
> baptism, he would have had to fit it into the Genesis structure. By
> including only discourse `about' the baptism, John was able to imply
> the fact of it without having to justify it in the Genesis structure
> (which did not allow for it).

Dear Kym,

Of course it's possible that the author of John used Genesis 1&2 as a
structure for his gospel from 1:1 - 20:29, although AFAIK this view is not
widely shared. But I think here also our underlying presuppositions may
come into play. In my view, the gospels have some real historical events
as their basis. So I would not necessarily agree that the mythological
events from the OT would have overwhelmed the historical base of the
gospels to a very great degree.

Best wishes,

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky  -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku -=O=- Toronto

I doubt, therefore I might be.

Dear Yuri,

> Of course it's possible that the author of John used Genesis
1&2 as a > structure for his gospel from 1:1 - 20:29, although
AFAIK this view is not > widely shared.

True, it is not widely shared - not yet anyway. It is something that I
have stumbled upon.

>But I think here also our underlying presuppositions may >
come into play. In my view, the gospels have some real historical
events > as their basis.

I am not suggesting that John did not use historical events. He
did, however, parallel those events with the first two chapters of
Genesis. Several examples may be useful. Jesus' baptism I
have already explained. The two mentions of Adam's movement
from outside to inside the garden are matched by Jesus' final
entry into Jerusalem and his going to the garden (Gethsemane).
Adam's deep sleep in the garden and the removal of his rib is
matched by Jesus death (in a garden [19:41]) and his being
pierced in the side. The presentation of Eve to Adam is
paralleled by Mary Magdalene's (sole) encounter with Jesus (in
the same garden - she thought he was the gardener [20:15, c.f.
Gen 2:15]). Jesus' first word to her is "Woman" (cf. Gen 2:23;
'she shall be called woman'). John's acount implies that other
women were down at the tomb (20:2 '...'we' do not know...') but
he only mentions Mary because of his aligning his Gospel with
Gen 1&2.

>So I would not necessarily agree that the mythological > events
from the OT would have overwhelmed the historical base of the >
gospels to a very great degree.>

The 'historical base' is not 'overwhelmed', but John has used the
Genesis structure to in clude ideas additional to those in the
plain text. He has shown two main things with this stucture.
From Genesis 1 (Jn 1:1-11:44), that the Word who became flesh
and dwelt among us, Jesus, was the one created all things (c.f.
Jn 1:3) and, from Genesis 2 (Jn 11:45-20:29), to express a
sublime First Adam / Second Adam theology - all the more
sublime because it is the pre-Fall Adam with whom he is
drawing the parallels.

Sincerely,

Kym Smith
Adelaide
South Australia
khs@...

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

> Well, this is something that can be profitably
> discussed. Namely, which version of this passage
> tends to suggest a closer relationship between
> John and Jesus. Can we say that (a) Jesus being
> baptised by John suggests a closer relationship
> between the two, or that (b) Jesus merely spending
> some time with John suggests a closer relationship
> between them? Myself, I vote for (a).

Lots of people were baptized by John. I vote for time
spent with him beyond the Jordan as indicative of a
closer relationship.

> Also, I would like to hear your opinion as to why
> the baptism of Jesus by John is absent in Jn. Do you
> think it possible that some early version of
> Jn in fact did feature Jesus being baptised by John?

My opinion, which is not based upon a serious study of
the issue, is that John's Gospel presents such a high
Christology that it avoids the image of John baptizing
Jesus.

As for early versions of John, I don't know.

Jeffery Hodges

=====
Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
Yangsandong 411
South Korea

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