--- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, donn reese <tlkreese@...>
wrote:
>
> Let's open this to the Group-
>
> What role does doctrine play anymore and how do you determine the historicial
Jesus.
>
> Regards
>
> Donn
>


It is my belief that doctrine still plays a critical and vital role. Our
doctrines are essentially what it is we believe, so while some shrink from using
the word, I see no reason too.

I determine the historical Jesus from the available evidence that we do in fact
of Him.


Jim

Hi T,

I think you are right in many respects. Christianity is evolving as Judaism and
other religions have evolved with more social and environmental concerns taking
presidence over the old Creeds.

Robert Bowman, an evangelical minister, had written a critique of Greg
Stafford's new book, Greg was a Jehovah's Witness and has since moved on as
founder of the Christian Witnesses of Jah fellowship.  Robert and Greg had a
series of debates on the Trinity and Predestination a few years ago.

Regards

Donn




________________________________
From: eternity39us <eternity39us@...>
To: jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, November 10, 2009 4:17:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Jehovah's Witnesses Gathering] Bowman and Stafford and their
discussion and debates on Jesus

 
Hello Donn:

I do not think doctrine plays to much of a role anymore. Are you speaking about
doctrine that pertains to what a specific church believe? Churches have many
doctrines.

I still believe in the writings and teachings of the Holy Scriptures inspired by
God. This is THEE doctrine.

All other doctrines outside the inspired Holy Scriptures of God, are man made.

T
--- In jehovahswitnessesga thering@yahoogro ups.com, donn reese <tlkreese@.. .>
wrote:
>
> Let's open this to the Group-
>
> What role does doctrine play anymore and how do you determine the historicial
Jesus.
>
> Regards
>
> Donn
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: tlkreese <tlkreese@.. .>
> To: jehovahswitnessesga thering@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Mon, October 19, 2009 3:11:16 PM
> Subject: [Jehovah's Witnesses Gathering] Bowman and Stafford and their
discussion and debates on Jesus
>
>  
> To Rob and Greg,
>
> a. As you have studied the schemas of the Trinity for a number of years what
critical apparatus have you used to isolate ethical, structural, and
metaphysical flaws in the dogma.
>
> Is the Trinity going to suffer the way Thomism did at the Second Vatican
Council for a lack of vital interactiveness in contemporary life i.e. how does
it put food on the table and how does it address issues like global warming.
>
> b. One's belief in a Supreme Being, whatever that concept may be, effects the
totality of their life experience i.e. God instructs someone to do and not do
certain things and to interact withothers incertain ethical means. What gooddoes
the Trinity God do, or Allah, or Vishnu, or YHWH. How have followers responded
to that inner mechanism of Faith in eachsystem. Is creedalism even relevant
anymore or is the more organic philosophy of the Golden Rule the thing that
improves lives and communities.
>
> c. Observation: Which Jesus is the real Jesus. Christianity has numerous and
diametrically different views on who he was and what he taught they cannot be
speaking of the same man other than the marker of having the name Jesus, or can
they.
>
> Regards
>
> Donn
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Donn:

I do not think doctrine plays to much of a role anymore.  Are you speaking about
doctrine that pertains to what a specific church believe?  Churches have many
doctrines.

I still believe in the writings and teachings of the Holy Scriptures  inspired
by God.  This is THEE doctrine.

All other doctrines outside the inspired Holy Scriptures of God, are man made.

T
--- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, donn reese <tlkreese@...>
wrote:
>
> Let's open this to the Group-
>
> What role does doctrine play anymore and how do you determine the historicial
Jesus.
>
> Regards
>
> Donn
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: tlkreese <tlkreese@...>
> To: jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, October 19, 2009 3:11:16 PM
> Subject: [Jehovah's Witnesses Gathering] Bowman and Stafford and their
discussion and debates on Jesus
>
> �
> To Rob and Greg,
>
> a. As you have studied the schemas of the Trinity for a number of years what
critical apparatus have you used to isolate ethical, structural, and
metaphysical flaws in the dogma.
>
> Is the Trinity going to suffer the way Thomism did at the Second Vatican
Council for a lack of vital interactiveness in contemporary life i.e. how does
it put food on the table and how does it address issues like global warming.
>
> b. One's belief in a Supreme Being, whatever that concept may be, effects the
totality of their life experience i.e. God instructs someone to do and not do
certain things and to interact withothers incertain ethical means. What gooddoes
the Trinity God do, or Allah, or Vishnu, or YHWH. How have followers responded
to that inner mechanism of Faith in eachsystem. Is creedalism even relevant
anymore or is the more organic philosophy of the Golden Rule the thing that
improves lives and communities.
>
> c. Observation: Which Jesus is the real Jesus. Christianity has numerous and
diametrically different views on who he was and what he taught they cannot be
speaking of the same man other than the marker of having the name Jesus, or can
they.
>
> Regards
>
> Donn
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi Alanna,

Greg Stafford was a Jehovah's Witness for many years and recently seperated from
the Society.� Greg is the author of three books on the beliefs of Jehovah's
Witnesses and his newly formed Christian Witnesses of Jah.� He has also debated
several Trinitarian defenders and runs a website and blog where he discusses his
views, www.elihubooks.com

Regards

Donn




________________________________
From: alanna garth <pokealanna@...>
To: jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 11:18:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Jehovah's Witnesses Gathering] Greg Stafford's new book

�
pLEASE ELABORATE ON WHO THIS gREG IS.

--- On Tue, 10/27/09, tlkreese <tlkreese@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: tlkreese <tlkreese@yahoo. com>
Subject: [Jehovah's Witnesses Gathering] Greg Stafford's new book
To: jehovahswitnessesga thering@yahoogro ups.com
Date: Tuesday, October 27, 2009, 4:17 AM

�

Greg was kind enough to send me a copy of his new book so I will have an
opportunity in the next week to read it.

Any initial questions or thoughts pertaining to the new book or Greg?

Take care

Donn

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

pLEASE ELABORATE ON WHO THIS gREG IS.

--- On Tue, 10/27/09, tlkreese <tlkreese@...> wrote:


From: tlkreese <tlkreese@...>
Subject: [Jehovah's Witnesses Gathering] Greg Stafford's new book
To: jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, October 27, 2009, 4:17 AM


�



Greg was kind enough to send me a copy of his new book so I will have an
opportunity in the next week to read it.

Any initial questions or thoughts pertaining to the new book or Greg?

Take care

Donn



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Chapter 2 is an analysis of 'person' and 'being' and how the words are used in
theology.

For Robert: do you feel Greg has quoted your statements on 'person' and 'being'
accurately as a well as those of Erickson.

Were the post Biblical Bishops borrowing from Socrates and Plato and possibly
Philo in stretching the boundries of anthropomorphisms.

Regards

Donn

Greg was kind enough to send me a copy of his new book so I will have an
opportunity in the next week to read it.

Any initial questions or thoughts pertaining to the new book or Greg?

Take care

Donn

Let's open this to the Group-

What role does doctrine play anymore and how do you determine the historicial
Jesus.

Regards

Donn




________________________________
From: tlkreese <tlkreese@...>
To: jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, October 19, 2009 3:11:16 PM
Subject: [Jehovah's Witnesses Gathering] Bowman and Stafford and their
discussion and debates on Jesus

�
To Rob and Greg,

a. As you have studied the schemas of the Trinity for a number of years what
critical apparatus have you used to isolate ethical, structural, and
metaphysical flaws in the dogma.

Is the Trinity going to suffer the way Thomism did at the Second Vatican Council
for a lack of vital interactiveness in contemporary life i.e. how does it put
food on the table and how does it address issues like global warming.

b. One's belief in a Supreme Being, whatever that concept may be, effects the
totality of their life experience i.e. God instructs someone to do and not do
certain things and to interact withothers incertain ethical means. What gooddoes
the Trinity God do, or Allah, or Vishnu, or YHWH. How have followers responded
to that inner mechanism of Faith in eachsystem. Is creedalism even relevant
anymore or is the more organic philosophy of the Golden Rule the thing that
improves lives and communities.

c. Observation: Which Jesus is the real Jesus. Christianity has numerous and
diametrically different views on who he was and what he taught they cannot be
speaking of the same man other than the marker of having the name Jesus, or can
they.

Regards

Donn







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To Rob and Greg,

a. As you have studied the schemas of the Trinity for a number of years what
critical apparatus have you used to isolate ethical, structural, and
metaphysical flaws in the dogma.

Is the Trinity going to suffer the way Thomism did at the Second Vatican Council
for a lack of vital interactiveness in contemporary life i.e. how does it put
food on the table and how does it address issues like global warming.

b. One's belief in a Supreme Being, whatever that concept may be, effects the
totality of their life experience i.e. God instructs someone to do and not do
certain things and to interact withothers incertain ethical means.  What
gooddoes the Trinity God do, or Allah, or Vishnu, or YHWH.  How have followers
responded to that inner mechanism of Faith in eachsystem.  Is creedalism even
relevant anymore or is the more organic philosophy of the Golden Rule the thing
that improves lives and communities.

c. Observation: Which Jesus is the real Jesus. Christianity has numerous and
diametrically different views on who he was and what he taught they cannot be
speaking of the same man other than the marker of having the name Jesus, or can
they.

Regards

Donn

All,

I have posted the first of what I anticipate will be several blog entries on
Greg Stafford's third edition of _Jehovah's Witnesses Defended_:

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2009/10/greg-stafford-defends-jehovahs-wit\
nesses-from-the-margins/

In Christ's service,
Rob Bowman

No reply from the JW's???


--- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Alanna" <pokealanna@...>
wrote:
>
> Here we have right from the horse's mouth (or in this case the false prophet's
mouth).  Jesus is mediator ONLY for the 144,000.  He is high priest for all but
only mediator for the 144,000.  The othe dubs are saved by extension, due to
their close asosciation with those of 'the annointed', i.e. they do what the
governing body tells them to do.  Article below.  How sad.  Shame on the
governing body for shutting up the kingdom of heaven tothose who would enter.
>
>
> 1979 April 1st issue page 31, under qustions from the readers.)
>                                                              
QuestionsfromReaders
> �
> IsJesusthe"mediator"onlyforanointedChristians?
>
> The term "mediator" occurs just six times in the Christian Greek Scriptures
and Scripturally is always used regarding a formal covenant.
>
> Moses was the "mediator" of the Law covenant made between God and the nation
of Israel. (Gal. 3:19, 20) Christ, though, is the "mediator of a new covenant"
between Jehovah and spiritual Israel, the "Israel of God" that will serve as
kings and priests in heaven with Jesus. (Heb. 8:6; 9:15; 12:24; Gal. 6:16) At a
time when God was selecting those to be taken into that new covenant, the
apostle Paul wrote that Christ was the "one mediator between God and men." (1
Tim. 2:5) Reasonably Paul was here using the word "mediator" in the same way he
did the other five times, which occurred before the writing of 1 Timothy 2:5,
referring to those then being taken into the new covenant for which Christ is
"mediator." So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the "mediator" only for
anointed Christians.
>
> The new covenant will terminate with the glorification of the remnant who are
today in that covenant mediated by Christ. The "great crowd" of "other sheep"
that is forming today is not in that new covenant. However, by their associating
with the "little flock" of those yet in that covenant they come under benefits
that flow from that new covenant. During the millennium Jesus Christ will be
their king, high priest and judge. For more detailed information, see
AidtoBibleUnderstanding, pages 1129 and 1130 under "Mediator"; also
God's"EternalPurpose"NowTriumphingforMan'sGood, page 160, paragraph 10; also
TheWatchtower issues of February 15, 1966, pages 105 through 123; November 15,
1972, pages 685 and 686, under the subheading "Leading the Way to a New
Covenant"; and April 1, 1973, pages 198 and 199, under the subheading "The New
Covenant."
>

Here we have right from the horse's mouth (or in this case the false prophet's
mouth).  Jesus is mediator ONLY for the 144,000.  He is high priest for all but
only mediator for the 144,000.  The othe dubs are saved by extension, due to
their close asosciation with those of 'the annointed', i.e. they do what the
governing body tells them to do.  Article below.  How sad.  Shame on the
governing body for shutting up the kingdom of heaven tothose who would enter.


1979 April 1st issue page 31, under qustions from the readers.)
                                                              
QuestionsfromReaders
�
IsJesusthe"mediator"onlyforanointedChristians?

The term "mediator" occurs just six times in the Christian Greek Scriptures and
Scripturally is always used regarding a formal covenant.

Moses was the "mediator" of the Law covenant made between God and the nation of
Israel. (Gal. 3:19, 20) Christ, though, is the "mediator of a new covenant"
between Jehovah and spiritual Israel, the "Israel of God" that will serve as
kings and priests in heaven with Jesus. (Heb. 8:6; 9:15; 12:24; Gal. 6:16) At a
time when God was selecting those to be taken into that new covenant, the
apostle Paul wrote that Christ was the "one mediator between God and men." (1
Tim. 2:5) Reasonably Paul was here using the word "mediator" in the same way he
did the other five times, which occurred before the writing of 1 Timothy 2:5,
referring to those then being taken into the new covenant for which Christ is
"mediator." So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the "mediator" only for
anointed Christians.

The new covenant will terminate with the glorification of the remnant who are
today in that covenant mediated by Christ. The "great crowd" of "other sheep"
that is forming today is not in that new covenant. However, by their associating
with the "little flock" of those yet in that covenant they come under benefits
that flow from that new covenant. During the millennium Jesus Christ will be
their king, high priest and judge. For more detailed information, see
AidtoBibleUnderstanding, pages 1129 and 1130 under "Mediator"; also
God's"EternalPurpose"NowTriumphingforMan'sGood, page 160, paragraph 10; also
TheWatchtower issues of February 15, 1966, pages 105 through 123; November 15,
1972, pages 685 and 686, under the subheading "Leading the Way to a New
Covenant"; and April 1, 1973, pages 198 and 199, under the subheading "The New
Covenant."

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith�and this not from
yourselves, it is the gift of God�
9 not by works, so that no one can boast. (NIV from Bible Gateway website)

8 By this undeserved kindness, indeed, YOU have been saved through faith; and
this not owing to YOU, it is God's gift.
9 No, it is not owing to works, in order that no man should have ground for
boasting. (NWT from Watchtower website)

The questions:

1). According to this passage, what are we saved by and through?

2). When the word 'gift' is used to describe our salvation (our deliverance from
the penalty of sin), what does that imply?

3). If we could earn salvation (everlasting life) through our good works, would
it still be a gift?

4). Just because it is free, does that mean it's worthless? Why or why not?

5). Why do people try to earn salvation?

6). According to verse 9, if we could earn salvation, then what might we be
tempted to do?

from all the groups so email personaly if you want to talk. I'm under stress of
not knowing who to believe: The JWS or the others. Both sides say they are
right. Bye for now. I will also be getting rid of messenger so I'll talk to you
later.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What is anecdotal?







These anecdotal stories (if true) can be found in all relgions.

--- On Wed, 6/3/09, Tammy Donaldson <ilovenycole@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Tammy Donaldson <ilovenycole@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [Jehovah's Witnesses Gathering] Tammy's early fathers topic
To: "Alan R. Craig" <john1one@earthlink. net>, evangelicals_ and_jws@yahoogro
ups.com, exit-fundyism@ yahoogroups. com, FreeAnnounce@ yahoogroups. com,
"group" <ChristLife@christ- like.net>, jehovahswitnessesga thering@yahoogro
ups.com, jwtalks@yahoogroups .com, massxjws@yahoogroup s.com,
momsville@googlegro ups.com, "Sandy/CA" <sandrazelms@ rcn.com>, "Mae"
<maeann_mationg@ yahoo.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 1:49 AM

The Kind of Father Children Need
CHILDREN need a father who loves them, who is there for them, and who does
whatever he can to help them grow into responsible, trustworthy adults. That
children need this kind of father has not been given due recognition.
True, mothers deliver babies into the world, and the importance of being a good
mother can hardly be overstated. But noting that the father plays an equally
vital role, The Wilson Quarterly said: “The decline of fatherhood is a major
force behind many of the most disturbing problems that plague American
society”—and, we might add, those of the rest of the world.
The Brazilian newspaper Jornal da Tarde reports on a study that concluded that
many behavioral problems of youths—such as aggressiveness, unruliness, poor
performance in school, and apathy—are often “the result of an absent
father.” And the Italian book Gli imperfetti genitori (The Imperfect Parents),
by Marcello Bernardi, emphasizes that to develop successfully, children ideally
need two parents.
Family Life Can Be Improved

Even if a negligent father has contributed to problems in the family or has been
largely responsible for them, it doesn’t mean matters cannot be corrected and
family life improved. How? What does the father need to do?
Clearly, children need family structure, a sense that someone with their welfare
in mind is in control. When that need isn’t met, as often occurs today, the
lives of children are adversely affected. Yet, the situation is never hopeless,
whether there is a father in the picture or not. “A father of fatherless
boys,” the Bible says at Psalm 68:5, “is God in his holy dwelling.”*
How to Obtain Help

That God’s help is vital for success and that it can be obtained is evidenced
by the situation described by Lidia, the girl from Poland mentioned in the
preceding article. What was family life like in her home? How did the family
receive God’s help?
Franciszek, Lidia’s father, admits that when his children were young, he
neglected his family, just as his daughter reported. He says: “I didn’t care
what our children were doing. I didn’t display affection, and there wasn’t
any bond between us.” So he was unaware that when Lidia was 14, she and his
younger son and daughter were already carousing, smoking, drinking, and getting
into fights.
Finally, Franciszek came to realize the trouble his children were getting into,
and he was shocked into doing something about it. “I prayed to God for
help,” he says. Remarkably, soon afterward Jehovah’s Witnesses called at his
home, and he and his wife agreed to study the Bible. In time, the parents
started applying its teachings in their lives. What was the effect upon the
children?
Franciszek explains: “They began to notice that I had quit drinking and was
becoming a better father. They wanted to get to know Jehovah’s Witnesses
better. They also began to study the Bible and quit their bad associations.”
The son, Rafał, says of his father: “I came to love him as a friend.” He
adds: “The street gang suddenly became unimportant. We were busy with
spiritual activities.”
Franciszek is now a Christian elder in a congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses,
and he is still involved with his family and the spiritual growth of each one.
His wife and Lidia are pioneers, full-time evangelizers. Rafał and his younger
sister, Sylwia, share whole-souled in Bible study, in commenting at Christian
meetings, and in sharing their faith with others...
He Practiced What He Taught

Consider, too, what happened with Luis, the father of Macarena. Recall that she
is the 21-year-old girl in Spain who was quoted in the opening article...
Luis’ way of life had been patterned after that of his own alcoholic father.
As Macarena said, he would disappear with his friends for days at a time.
Moreover, he treated his wife like a servant rather than an appreciated partner.
Their marriage was at a breaking point, and Macarena and her younger siblings
were traumatized.
In time, however, Luis agreed to study the Bible with Jehovah’s Witnesses. He
explains: “I began to spend time with my wife and my children. We talked
together, had meals together, and studied the Bible together. We also shared in
doing household chores and in recreation.” Macarena says: “I started to feel
the presence of a kind father who showed genuine interest in his family.”
Significantly, not only did Luis encourage his family to serve God but he
practiced what he taught. He left “a thriving business enterprise,” Macarena
explains, “because it took up too much time and he wanted to give more
attention to family matters.” The effect was remarkable. “His example has
taught me how to keep a simple eye and to put spiritual things in first
place,” Macarena says. She now serves as a pioneer, and her mother and younger
siblings are active members of the Christian congregation.
The Railway Executive’s Decision

Clearly, the kind of father children need is one who makes decisions with the
welfare of his children in mind. The teenage son of Takeshi Tamura, the Japanese
executive mentioned in the preceding article, had become involved with unsavory
associates and appeared to be heading for real trouble. That was in 1986, the
year that Takeshi decided to give up his responsible position with the Japanese
National Railways. How does Takeshi feel about his decision now, more than 18
years later?
“It is perhaps the best decision I ever made,” he said recently. “Spending
more time with my son and doing things together, including studying the Bible
with him, had a remarkable effect. We became friends, and he cut off his bad
associations and improper behavior.”
Takeshi’s wife had become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses a few years earlier,
and it was her exemplary conduct that moved her husband to look into the Bible
and become more involved with the family. Eventually he, his son, and his
daughter all became Witnesses. Takeshi and his son now serve as elders in their
respective congregations, and his wife and daughter are pioneers.
Fathers Need Help

Many fathers, despite realizing that they are neglecting their children, do not
know what to do for them. The Spanish newspaper La Vanguardia carried the
headline “42 Percent of [Spanish] Parents Admit That They Don’t Know How to
Bring Up Their Teenage Children.” But the same can be said regarding the
fathers of preteens as well as toddlers. Contrary to the thinking of many, these
younger ones also need the presence and attention of a devoted father.
What more can be learned about how to become a good father? Who are the best
examples for fathers, and what can be learned from them? Our concluding article
will examine these questions.

*  Please see the chapter “Single-Parent Families Can Succeed!” in the book
The Secret of Family Happiness, published by Jehovah’s Witnesses

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

These anecdotal stories (if true) can be found in all relgions.

--- On Wed, 6/3/09, Tammy Donaldson <ilovenycole@...> wrote:


From: Tammy Donaldson <ilovenycole@...>
Subject: [Jehovah's Witnesses Gathering] Tammy's early fathers topic
To: "Alan R. Craig" <john1one@...>,
evangelicals_and_jws@yahoogroups.com, exit-fundyism@yahoogroups.com,
FreeAnnounce@yahoogroups.com, "group" <ChristLife@...>,
jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, jwtalks@yahoogroups.com,
massxjws@yahoogroups.com, momsville@googlegroups.com, "Sandy/CA"
<sandrazelms@...>, "Mae" <maeann_mationg@...>
Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 1:49 AM








The Kind of Father Children Need
CHILDREN need a father who loves them, who is there for them, and who does
whatever he can to help them grow into responsible, trustworthy adults. That
children need this kind of father has not been given due recognition.
True, mothers deliver babies into the world, and the importance of being a good
mother can hardly be overstated. But noting that the father plays an equally
vital role, The Wilson Quarterly said: “The decline of fatherhood is a major
force behind many of the most disturbing problems that plague American
society”—and, we might add, those of the rest of the world.
The Brazilian newspaper Jornal da Tarde reports on a study that concluded that
many behavioral problems of youths—such as aggressiveness, unruliness, poor
performance in school, and apathy—are often “the result of an absent
father.” And the Italian book Gli imperfetti genitori (The Imperfect Parents),
by Marcello Bernardi, emphasizes that to develop successfully, children ideally
need two parents.
Family Life Can Be Improved

Even if a negligent father has contributed to problems in the family or has been
largely responsible for them, it doesn’t mean matters cannot be corrected and
family life improved. How? What does the father need to do?
Clearly, children need family structure, a sense that someone with their welfare
in mind is in control. When that need isn’t met, as often occurs today, the
lives of children are adversely affected. Yet, the situation is never hopeless,
whether there is a father in the picture or not. “A father of fatherless
boys,” the Bible says at Psalm 68:5, “is God in his holy dwelling.”*
How to Obtain Help

That God’s help is vital for success and that it can be obtained is evidenced
by the situation described by Lidia, the girl from Poland mentioned in the
preceding article. What was family life like in her home? How did the family
receive God’s help?
Franciszek, Lidia’s father, admits that when his children were young, he
neglected his family, just as his daughter reported. He says: “I didn’t care
what our children were doing. I didn’t display affection, and there wasn’t
any bond between us.” So he was unaware that when Lidia was 14, she and his
younger son and daughter were already carousing, smoking, drinking, and getting
into fights.
Finally, Franciszek came to realize the trouble his children were getting into,
and he was shocked into doing something about it. “I prayed to God for
help,” he says. Remarkably, soon afterward Jehovah’s Witnesses called at his
home, and he and his wife agreed to study the Bible. In time, the parents
started applying its teachings in their lives. What was the effect upon the
children?
Franciszek explains: “They began to notice that I had quit drinking and was
becoming a better father. They wanted to get to know Jehovah’s Witnesses
better. They also began to study the Bible and quit their bad associations.”
The son, Rafał, says of his father: “I came to love him as a friend.” He
adds: “The street gang suddenly became unimportant. We were busy with
spiritual activities.”
Franciszek is now a Christian elder in a congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses,
and he is still involved with his family and the spiritual growth of each one.
His wife and Lidia are pioneers, full-time evangelizers. Rafał and his younger
sister, Sylwia, share whole-souled in Bible study, in commenting at Christian
meetings, and in sharing their faith with others..
He Practiced What He Taught

Consider, too, what happened with Luis, the father of Macarena. Recall that she
is the 21-year-old girl in Spain who was quoted in the opening article.. Luis’
way of life had been patterned after that of his own alcoholic father. As
Macarena said, he would disappear with his friends for days at a time. Moreover,
he treated his wife like a servant rather than an appreciated partner. Their
marriage was at a breaking point, and Macarena and her younger siblings were
traumatized.
In time, however, Luis agreed to study the Bible with Jehovah’s Witnesses. He
explains: “I began to spend time with my wife and my children. We talked
together, had meals together, and studied the Bible together. We also shared in
doing household chores and in recreation.” Macarena says: “I started to feel
the presence of a kind father who showed genuine interest in his family.”
Significantly, not only did Luis encourage his family to serve God but he
practiced what he taught. He left “a thriving business enterprise,” Macarena
explains, “because it took up too much time and he wanted to give more
attention to family matters.” The effect was remarkable. “His example has
taught me how to keep a simple eye and to put spiritual things in first
place,” Macarena says. She now serves as a pioneer, and her mother and younger
siblings are active members of the Christian congregation.
The Railway Executive’s Decision

Clearly, the kind of father children need is one who makes decisions with the
welfare of his children in mind. The teenage son of Takeshi Tamura, the Japanese
executive mentioned in the preceding article, had become involved with unsavory
associates and appeared to be heading for real trouble. That was in 1986, the
year that Takeshi decided to give up his responsible position with the Japanese
National Railways. How does Takeshi feel about his decision now, more than 18
years later?
“It is perhaps the best decision I ever made,” he said recently. “Spending
more time with my son and doing things together, including studying the Bible
with him, had a remarkable effect. We became friends, and he cut off his bad
associations and improper behavior.”
Takeshi’s wife had become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses a few years earlier,
and it was her exemplary conduct that moved her husband to look into the Bible
and become more involved with the family. Eventually he, his son, and his
daughter all became Witnesses. Takeshi and his son now serve as elders in their
respective congregations, and his wife and daughter are pioneers.
Fathers Need Help

Many fathers, despite realizing that they are neglecting their children, do not
know what to do for them. The Spanish newspaper La Vanguardia carried the
headline “42 Percent of [Spanish] Parents Admit That They Don’t Know How to
Bring Up Their Teenage Children.” But the same can be said regarding the
fathers of preteens as well as toddlers. Contrary to the thinking of many, these
younger ones also need the presence and attention of a devoted father.
What more can be learned about how to become a good father? Who are the best
examples for fathers, and what can be learned from them? Our concluding article
will examine these questions.

*  Please see the chapter “Single-Parent Families Can Succeed!” in the book
The Secret of Family Happiness, published by Jehovah’s Witnesses

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That is the principle way...and prayer to God to send the help of the Holy
Spirit.

--- On Tue, 6/2/09, Tammy Donaldson <ilovenycole@...> wrote:


From: Tammy Donaldson <ilovenycole@...>
Subject: [Jehovah's Witnesses Gathering] Tammy's question
To: Abdijah@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, June 2, 2009, 11:57 PM








How does one acquire faith besides reading and studying the Bible?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The Kind of Father Children Need
CHILDREN need a father who loves them, who is there for them, and who does
whatever he can to help them grow into responsible, trustworthy adults. That
children need this kind of father has not been given due recognition.
True, mothers deliver babies into the world, and the importance of being a good
mother can hardly be overstated. But noting that the father plays an equally
vital role, The Wilson Quarterly said: “The decline of fatherhood is a major
force behind many of the most disturbing problems that plague American
society”—and, we might add, those of the rest of the world.
The Brazilian newspaper Jornal da Tarde reports on a study that concluded that
many behavioral problems of youths—such as aggressiveness, unruliness, poor
performance in school, and apathy—are often “the result of an absent
father.” And the Italian book Gli imperfetti genitori (The Imperfect Parents),
by Marcello Bernardi, emphasizes that to develop successfully, children ideally
need two parents.
Family Life Can Be Improved

Even if a negligent father has contributed to problems in the family or has been
largely responsible for them, it doesn’t mean matters cannot be corrected and
family life improved. How? What does the father need to do?
Clearly, children need family structure, a sense that someone with their welfare
in mind is in control. When that need isn’t met, as often occurs today, the
lives of children are adversely affected. Yet, the situation is never hopeless,
whether there is a father in the picture or not. “A father of fatherless
boys,” the Bible says at Psalm 68:5, “is God in his holy dwelling.”*
How to Obtain Help

That God’s help is vital for success and that it can be obtained is evidenced
by the situation described by Lidia, the girl from Poland mentioned in the
preceding article. What was family life like in her home? How did the family
receive God’s help?
Franciszek, Lidia’s father, admits that when his children were young, he
neglected his family, just as his daughter reported. He says: “I didn’t care
what our children were doing. I didn’t display affection, and there wasn’t
any bond between us.” So he was unaware that when Lidia was 14, she and his
younger son and daughter were already carousing, smoking, drinking, and getting
into fights.
Finally, Franciszek came to realize the trouble his children were getting into,
and he was shocked into doing something about it. “I prayed to God for
help,” he says. Remarkably, soon afterward Jehovah’s Witnesses called at his
home, and he and his wife agreed to study the Bible. In time, the parents
started applying its teachings in their lives. What was the effect upon the
children?
Franciszek explains: “They began to notice that I had quit drinking and was
becoming a better father. They wanted to get to know Jehovah’s Witnesses
better. They also began to study the Bible and quit their bad associations.”
The son, Rafał, says of his father: “I came to love him as a friend.” He
adds: “The street gang suddenly became unimportant. We were busy with
spiritual activities.”
Franciszek is now a Christian elder in a congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses,
and he is still involved with his family and the spiritual growth of each one.
His wife and Lidia are pioneers, full-time evangelizers. Rafał and his younger
sister, Sylwia, share whole-souled in Bible study, in commenting at Christian
meetings, and in sharing their faith with others..
He Practiced What He Taught

Consider, too, what happened with Luis, the father of Macarena. Recall that she
is the 21-year-old girl in Spain who was quoted in the opening article.. Luis’
way of life had been patterned after that of his own alcoholic father. As
Macarena said, he would disappear with his friends for days at a time. Moreover,
he treated his wife like a servant rather than an appreciated partner. Their
marriage was at a breaking point, and Macarena and her younger siblings were
traumatized.
In time, however, Luis agreed to study the Bible with Jehovah’s Witnesses. He
explains: “I began to spend time with my wife and my children. We talked
together, had meals together, and studied the Bible together. We also shared in
doing household chores and in recreation.” Macarena says: “I started to feel
the presence of a kind father who showed genuine interest in his family.”
Significantly, not only did Luis encourage his family to serve God but he
practiced what he taught. He left “a thriving business enterprise,” Macarena
explains, “because it took up too much time and he wanted to give more
attention to family matters.” The effect was remarkable. “His example has
taught me how to keep a simple eye and to put spiritual things in first
place,” Macarena says. She now serves as a pioneer, and her mother and younger
siblings are active members of the Christian congregation.
The Railway Executive’s Decision

Clearly, the kind of father children need is one who makes decisions with the
welfare of his children in mind. The teenage son of Takeshi Tamura, the Japanese
executive mentioned in the preceding article, had become involved with unsavory
associates and appeared to be heading for real trouble. That was in 1986, the
year that Takeshi decided to give up his responsible position with the Japanese
National Railways. How does Takeshi feel about his decision now, more than 18
years later?
“It is perhaps the best decision I ever made,” he said recently. “Spending
more time with my son and doing things together, including studying the Bible
with him, had a remarkable effect. We became friends, and he cut off his bad
associations and improper behavior.”
Takeshi’s wife had become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses a few years earlier,
and it was her exemplary conduct that moved her husband to look into the Bible
and become more involved with the family. Eventually he, his son, and his
daughter all became Witnesses. Takeshi and his son now serve as elders in their
respective congregations, and his wife and daughter are pioneers.
Fathers Need Help

Many fathers, despite realizing that they are neglecting their children, do not
know what to do for them. The Spanish newspaper La Vanguardia carried the
headline “42 Percent of [Spanish] Parents Admit That They Don’t Know How to
Bring Up Their Teenage Children.” But the same can be said regarding the
fathers of preteens as well as toddlers. Contrary to the thinking of many, these
younger ones also need the presence and attention of a devoted father.
What more can be learned about how to become a good father? Who are the best
examples for fathers, and what can be learned from them? Our concluding article
will examine these questions.


*  Please see the chapter “Single-Parent Families Can Succeed!” in the book
The Secret of Family Happiness, published by Jehovah’s Witnesses




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

WAS THE FLOOD OF NOAH’S DAY REALLY GLOBAL?
The Noachian Flood occurred more than 4,000 years ago. So there are no
eyewitness survivors on earth to tell us about it. However, there is a written
record of that catastrophe, which states that the floodwaters covered the
tallest mountain of that time.

The historical document reads: “The deluge went on for forty days upon the
earth . . . And the waters overwhelmed the earth so greatly that all the tall
mountains that were under the whole heavens came to be covered. Up to fifteen
cubits [about 22 feet] the waters overwhelmed them and the mountains became
covered.”—Genesis 7:17-20.
Some may wonder if the story of the whole earth being covered with water is a
myth or at least an exaggeration. Not at all! Indeed, to some extent the earth
is still flooded. Seawater covers about 71 percent of the earth’s surface. So
in reality the floodwaters are still here. And if the glaciers and polar ice
caps were to melt, the sea level would rise to cover cities like New York and
Tokyo.
Geologists studying the landscape of the northwestern United States believe that
as many as 100 ancient catastrophic floods once washed over the area. One such
flood is said to have roared through the region with a wall of water 2,000 feet
high, traveling at 65 miles an hour—a flood of 500 cubic miles of water,
weighing more than two trillion tons. Similar findings have led other scientists
to believe that a global flood is a distinct possibility.
For those who believe that the Bible is God’s Word, though, a global flood is
more than a possibility. It is a fact. Jesus said to God: “Your word is
truth.” (John 17:17) The apostle Paul wrote that God’s will is that “all
sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth.”
(1 Timothy 2:3, 4) How could Paul teach followers of Jesus the doctrinal truth
if God’s Word contains myths?
Not only did Jesus believe that the Flood took place but he also believed that
it was global. In his great prophecy about his presence and the end of this
system of things, he likened those events to the time of Noah. (Matthew
24:37-39) The apostle Peter also wrote about the floodwaters in Noah’s day:
“By those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was
deluged with water.”—2 Peter 3:6.
If Noah was a mythical figure and a global flood a fable, the warnings of Peter
and Jesus for those living in the last days would be meaningless. Instead of
serving as a warning, such ideas would befuddle a person’s spiritual senses
and endanger his chances of surviving a tribulation greater than the Noachian
Flood.—2 Peter 3:1-7.
In speaking about his abiding mercies for his people, God said: “Just as I
have sworn that the waters of Noah shall no more pass over the earth, so I have
sworn that I will not become indignant toward you nor rebuke you.” As surely
as the Noachian Flood did overwhelm the earth, so God’s loving-kindness will
be with those trusting in him.—Isaiah 54:9.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

How does one acquire faith besides reading and studying the Bible?




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

hi!

--- On Mon, 6/1/09, Tammy Donaldson <ilovenycole@...> wrote:


From: Tammy Donaldson <ilovenycole@...>
Subject: [Jehovah's Witnesses Gathering] (unknown)
To: jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, June 1, 2009, 10:49 PM








Hello everyone

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello everyone




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- On Mon, 6/1/09, Steve Klemetti <sklemetti@...> wrote:


From: Steve Klemetti <sklemetti@...>
Subject: Re: [Jehovah's Witnesses Gathering] 1949- Pioneers who got Married were
treated like a Disfellowshiped person!!!
To: jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, June 1, 2009, 12:22 PM








alanna garth wrote:
> LOL That is total BS the statement that it did not reflect the Society's
viewpoint.
> Rutherford's book "Children" 1941 p.281 "There were no children on Noah's ark
or born on the ark...proper to wait till after Armagedon to bring children into
the world...it is only afew years....to Armagedon."
>
Rutherford is and was not the one in control of this religion. He just
ran the Watchtower Society. Two different things.


My reply:  ABSOLUTELY WRONG pseudo.  Rutherford was an autocratic despot and
thru the WT magazines was in total control of the members.


> Of course this view changed in 1951 when Joey wanted to get married.
>
Nothing changed. Nothing ever changed.


My reply:  Wrong again pseudodub.

> Steve, did you once say the elders would not let you marry for many years due
to your practicing masturbation?
>
Nope, not me. But the elders have no say in who, when or how one gets
married. And practicing masturbation does not forbid
marriage.

My reply:  Oh, ok...they let you continue to masturbate?

alanna garth wrote:
> LOL That is total BS the statement that it did not reflect the Society's
viewpoint.
> Rutherford's book "Children" 1941 p.281  "There were no children on Noah's ark
or born on the ark...proper to wait till after Armagedon to bring children into
the world...it is only afew years....to Armagedon."
>
Rutherford is and was not the one in control of this religion.  He just
ran the Watchtower Society.  Two different things.

> Of course this view changed in 1951 when Joey wanted to get married.
>
Nothing changed.  Nothing ever changed.

> Steve, did you once say the elders would not let you marry for many years due
to your practicing masturbation?
>
Nope, not me.  But the elders have no say in who, when or how one gets
married.  And practicing masturbation does not forbid
marriage.

--- On Mon, 6/1/09, Steve Klemetti <sklemetti@...> wrote:


From: Steve Klemetti <sklemetti@...>
Subject: Re: [Jehovah's Witnesses Gathering] 1949- Pioneers who got Married were
treated like a Disfellowshiped person!!!
To: jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, June 1, 2009, 11:58 AM








Alanna wrote:
> No wonder most of those older GB members were single...
>

IT was because they thought all women were like, you

(Proverbs 21:9) 9 Better is it to dwell upon a corner of a roof than
with a contentious wife, although in a house in common.

> 11/1/91 WT p 29
>
> Enduring Despite Difficulties
>
> Graduation of the eighth class of Gilead was February 9, 1947, and suspense
ran high. Where would we be sent? For me, "the measuring lines" fell on the
Society's newly opened printery at Wiesbaden, Germany. (Psalm 16:6) I returned
to Bern to apply for necessary papers, but the U.S. occupation forces in Germany
were permitting entry only to persons who had lived there before the war. Since
I had not, I needed a new assignment from Brooklyn headquarters. It turned out
to be circuit work in Switzerland, which I accepted with full trust in Jehovah.
But while awaiting this assignment, I was asked one day to show the Bethel
premises to three visiting sisters. One of them was a pioneer named Marthe Mehl.
>
> In May 1949, I informed headquarters in Bern that I planned to marry Marthe
and that we desired to remain in full-time service. The reaction? No privileges
other than regular pioneering. This we started in Biel, following our wedding in
June 1949. I was not permitted to give talks, nor could we look for
accommodations for delegates to a forthcoming assembly, even though we had been
recommended by our circuit overseer for this privilege. Many no longer greeted
us, treating us like disfellowshipped persons, even though we were pioneers.
>
> We knew, however, that getting married was not unscriptural, so we took refuge
in prayer and put our trust in Jehovah. Actually, this treatment did not reflect
the Society's view. It was simply a result of the misapplication of
organizational guidelines.
>

Did you read the last paragraph. That "treatment did not reflect the
Society's view".
"misapplication of organizational guidelines."

My reply- yes...that is a lie.

Isn't that the truth. Many people, many Witnesses misapply the
organizational guidelines and then people like you find fault with the
organization over that.



But it is good that they endured despite difficulties. That does not
sound like something the opposers like you would do. You find fault and
give up.


My reply- No pseudodub- we find the organziation to be a sham...so we leave and
come to Jesus.  Then we try to help others like yourself who are in the dark

>
>

LOL That is total BS the statement that it did not reflect the Society's
viewpoint.�
Rutherford's book "Children" 1941 p.281� "There were no children on Noah's ark
or born on the ark...proper to wait till after Armagedon to bring children into
the world...it is only afew years....to Armagedon."
Of course this view changed in 1951 when Joey wanted to get married.
Steve, did you once say the elders would not let you marry for many years due to
your practicing masturbation?

--- On Mon, 6/1/09, Steve Klemetti <sklemetti@...> wrote:


From: Steve Klemetti <sklemetti@...>
Subject: Re: [Jehovah's Witnesses Gathering] 1949- Pioneers who got Married were
treated like a Disfellowshiped person!!!
To: jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, June 1, 2009, 11:58 AM








Alanna wrote:
> No wonder most of those older GB members were single...
>

IT was because they thought all women were like, you

(Proverbs 21:9) 9 Better is it to dwell upon a corner of a roof than
with a contentious wife, although in a house in common.

> 11/1/91 WT p 29
>
> Enduring Despite Difficulties
>
> Graduation of the eighth class of Gilead was February 9, 1947, and suspense
ran high. Where would we be sent? For me, "the measuring lines" fell on the
Society's newly opened printery at Wiesbaden, Germany. (Psalm 16:6) I returned
to Bern to apply for necessary papers, but the U.S. occupation forces in Germany
were permitting entry only to persons who had lived there before the war. Since
I had not, I needed a new assignment from Brooklyn headquarters. It turned out
to be circuit work in Switzerland, which I accepted with full trust in Jehovah.
But while awaiting this assignment, I was asked one day to show the Bethel
premises to three visiting sisters. One of them was a pioneer named Marthe Mehl.
>
> In May 1949, I informed headquarters in Bern that I planned to marry Marthe
and that we desired to remain in full-time service. The reaction? No privileges
other than regular pioneering. This we started in Biel, following our wedding in
June 1949. I was not permitted to give talks, nor could we look for
accommodations for delegates to a forthcoming assembly, even though we had been
recommended by our circuit overseer for this privilege. Many no longer greeted
us, treating us like disfellowshipped persons, even though we were pioneers.
>
> We knew, however, that getting married was not unscriptural, so we took refuge
in prayer and put our trust in Jehovah. Actually, this treatment did not reflect
the Society's view. It was simply a result of the misapplication of
organizational guidelines.
>

Did you read the last paragraph. That "treatment did not reflect the
Society's view".
"misapplication of organizational guidelines."

Isn't that the truth. Many people, many Witnesses misapply the
organizational guidelines and then people like you find fault with the
organization over that.

But it is good that they endured despite difficulties. That does not
sound like something the opposers like you would do. You find fault and
give up.

>
>



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alanna wrote:
> No wonder most of those older GB members were single...
>

IT was because they thought all women were like, you

(Proverbs 21:9) 9 Better is it to dwell upon a corner of a roof than
with a contentious wife, although in a house in common.



> 11/1/91 WT p 29
>
> Enduring Despite Difficulties
>
> Graduation of the eighth class of Gilead was February 9, 1947, and suspense
ran high. Where would we be sent? For me, "the measuring lines" fell on the
Society's newly opened printery at Wiesbaden, Germany. (Psalm 16:6) I returned
to Bern to apply for necessary papers, but the U.S. occupation forces in Germany
were permitting entry only to persons who had lived there before the war. Since
I had not, I needed a new assignment from Brooklyn headquarters. It turned out
to be circuit work in Switzerland, which I accepted with full trust in Jehovah.
But while awaiting this assignment, I was asked one day to show the Bethel
premises to three visiting sisters. One of them was a pioneer named Marthe Mehl.
>
> In May 1949, I informed headquarters in Bern that I planned to marry Marthe
and that we desired to remain in full-time service. The reaction? No privileges
other than regular pioneering. This we started in Biel, following our wedding in
June 1949. I was not permitted to give talks, nor could we look for
accommodations for delegates to a forthcoming assembly, even though we had been
recommended by our circuit overseer for this privilege. Many no longer greeted
us, treating us like disfellowshipped persons, even though we were pioneers.
>
> We knew, however, that getting married was not unscriptural, so we took refuge
in prayer and put our trust in Jehovah. Actually, this treatment did not reflect
the Society's view. It was simply a result of the misapplication of
organizational guidelines.
>

Did you read the last paragraph.  That "treatment did not reflect the
Society's view".
"misapplication of organizational guidelines."

Isn't that the truth.  Many people, many Witnesses misapply the
organizational guidelines and then people like you find fault with the
organization over that.

But it is good that they endured despite difficulties.  That does not
sound like something the opposers like you would do.  You find fault and
give up.

>
>

No wonder most of those older GB members were single...

11/1/91 WT p 29

Enduring Despite Difficulties

Graduation of the eighth class of Gilead was February 9, 1947, and suspense ran
high. Where would we be sent? For me, "the measuring lines" fell on the
Society's newly opened printery at Wiesbaden, Germany. (Psalm 16:6) I returned
to Bern to apply for necessary papers, but the U.S. occupation forces in Germany
were permitting entry only to persons who had lived there before the war. Since
I had not, I needed a new assignment from Brooklyn headquarters. It turned out
to be circuit work in Switzerland, which I accepted with full trust in Jehovah.
But while awaiting this assignment, I was asked one day to show the Bethel
premises to three visiting sisters. One of them was a pioneer named Marthe Mehl.

In May 1949, I informed headquarters in Bern that I planned to marry Marthe and
that we desired to remain in full-time service. The reaction? No privileges
other than regular pioneering. This we started in Biel, following our wedding in
June 1949. I was not permitted to give talks, nor could we look for
accommodations for delegates to a forthcoming assembly, even though we had been
recommended by our circuit overseer for this privilege. Many no longer greeted
us, treating us like disfellowshipped persons, even though we were pioneers.

We knew, however, that getting married was not unscriptural, so we took refuge
in prayer and put our trust in Jehovah. Actually, this treatment did not reflect
the Society's view. It was simply a result of the misapplication of
organizational guidelines.

alanna garth wrote:
> No, I am only interested in what Paul said.  Unfortunately the WT tried to
cloud that.
>
> -

Are you also in on the conspiracy saying that American Idol was rigged
and votes were fixed?

alanna garth wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> alanna garth wrote:
>
>> Ic, the issue is not the use of accurate or lack therof- it is the WTs use of
it.
>>
>>
> So you are not interested in what Paul meant, your interest is in
> criticizing the WT.
>
> Noted.
>
>> They emphasize that word and then spin their fable that they are Jehovah's
only source of truth to mankind and you need to come to them for accurate
knowledge and salvation.
>>
>>
> That scripture says nothing about them and coming to them for anything.
>
>
>
> Exactly!  That scripture says absolutley nothing about coming to the JW
relgion for salvation.  No scriptue does!  The GB makes this fable up.
>

No, you are the one bringing this up.

Jim just asked for a comparison of the translations, not an attack on
the GB.

>