So, this has been running for 3 years now & I'm taking the family up for 10K
Ways #4.  I'd love to meet my friends up there, both old and new, if you find a
gathering like this interesting. :)

Ten Thousand Ways seeks to organize gatherings where community-minded people
from up and down the Pacific Coast come together to share ideas or skills, make
plans and network. Some of use have read the books of Daniel Quinn (Ishmael,
Story of B, My Ishmael), some of us are members of the Transition Town movement
or part of ecovillages or study the deep ecology movement or practice animism or
just simply feel a strong tie to the land around us. Some of us are old friends,
new friends or good companions.  But all of us understand it's a good time to
get together and talk, to 'tribe up' or renew our common ties and practice
walking lightly on the world.

The fourth Ten Thousand Ways gathering begins in Southern Oregon at noon Friday,
August 7th and finishes at noon Monday, August 10th, 2009. It's theme is
"Renewal" and it follows an Open Space
<http://www.openingspace.net/papers_facilitation_OSCollaborationCommunication.sh\
tml> Format. We reserved a group camping site at Beaver Sulphur for the
gathering, so don't forget your sleeping bag!

If you are interested in joining us, please check in at the 10K Ways Google
Group
<http://groups.google.com/group/10kways/browse_thread/thread/90f192165a4b383e?hl\
=en> or contact me at coyote_dreaming[at]pacbell.net.

Thanks!

Best

Bill Maxwell
Joining with folks up and down the Coast



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7_fC2zXFTU
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7_fC2zXFTU&feature=related>
&feature=related



This is a 55 minute video of Ehrlich, around the 40th anniversary of the
publishing of the Population Bomb, last October.  He's really, really,
really smart, and a good speaker, too.



Highly recommended!



Take care,



Rick



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Recently The Day the Earth Stood Still (the new one) was added to OnDemand
(used by many cable companies, including our local one.) One of the clips
used in advertising this movie is when the Secretary of Defense is talking
with Klatuu, and she she asserts "This is our planet!" and Klatuu replies
"No, it is not."  This has been played repeatedly to anyone browsing on
demand movies. I didn't think was the best movie, but it is interesting to
see this attack on the "the world belong to man" meme.  It becomes clear in
the movie that the aliens see that the world belongs to all life on earth,
that they share the planet.

Unfortunately, the movie does reinforce the meme that humans don't belong on
the earth.  The aliens create a kind of noah's arc for species on earth, but
it isn't shown that they include humans in the mix.  They want to wipe the
humans out.   In the end, a recognition of humanity's compassion and its
power for change has them pull back from completely destroying us... giving
us a chance to change our ways.

The idea that we stand at a turning point comes up frequently now.  ABC's
recent Earth 2100 special (http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Earth2100)
portrayed what might happen to people if we fail to act on climate change
now. They included Jared Diamond and others talking about how civilizations
have failed in the past.  It was interesting to see some of the things we
have talked about here on the television.  I did chuckle a couple of times
when they described their dark future as a "worst case scenario."  "Oh, it
can be worse," I thought.  Here I think they played strongly off the meme
that Civilization must continue.  In the end, when they talked about how we
might avert this dark future  they pulled out the "science can save us"
meme, suggesting only politicians are really preventing them from doing so.
If our leaders could only just agree.  Though, ironically they threw in a
bit of systems thinking wisdom, that unintended consequences can bite us if
we act rashly to changes.  So even they recognize science may not have all
the answers.

At the end of the movie, some of the things they showed as possible
solutions fit what some of us might see as potential solutions though, like
the greening of our cities, cities that grow all their own food, generate
much of their own energy (by solar and wind) and produce no waste.  They
show the technology for these things is within our grasp.  While they
mention problems with high population during the dark scenario, there wasn't
any mention of population in the solutions.

Still, I think the "civilization is at a crossroads" meme going mainstream
opens the door to exploring other approaches to the problem.

What memes are you all noticing?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In ishmael_discussion@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jimbo435@...> wrote:
>
> Looks like this group died out. Is there a new "hot spot" got Ishmaelian
discussion?
>

Probably not died out, just hit a lull.  It happens sometimes.  Someone comes up
with a good topic or two, and we'll jump back in there.   Really it just takes a
few members with things to talk about to get it going again.

In as much as I feel that the trilogy of Ishmael is the what has happen to our
civilization, we are growing, thinking, evolving people. To what end, no one
knows what we will butterfly to. But it just like this universe, we are changing
and need to change to survive. In the coarse of humanity the path( one of
many) that was take has gone just the way is was suppose to, and the path that
is being take now in the remembering the way it was has come full circle, to
what we can be. To incorporate the past with the present.
Not saying if we stayed on the our ancient road that we would have not evolved
to a higher conscience, but our learning curve as humans sometimes has to be
devastating.
I don't now what it will take, for human being to evolve so that we can go be
yon self, but that is why, I believe we are here.
Living in past, would be redundant but to build on the past and learn, we can
combine what worked then and what is capable now, is direction we need to work
toward.
 
Gwen Luchin
 


--- On Fri, 6/5/09, Gabriel Berzescu <gabi83tm@...> wrote:


From: Gabriel Berzescu <gabi83tm@...>
Subject: Ishmaell_discussion] Re: Where'd everybody go?
To: ishmael_discussion@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, June 5, 2009, 12:38 AM








"Mother nature" as in something that we don't belong to...

I see ;)

--- In ishmael_discussion@ yahoogroups. com, Gwen Luchin <co81004@... > wrote:
>
> In this day of understanding of what has happen in the history of our world
and how is came to what we are today, why is there such disbalief of what has
made our world the way it is. We as humans have to take resposibility of
ourselves and our world. To come to terms to be more loving and caring to
ourselve and to our world.
>  
> Mother nature will take care of herself, she is a living breathing thing, if
we don't show her respect and every thing on this is planet we are doomed to
repeat it again.
>  
> As for our children in "My Ishmeal" to what we have done to them is so true.
We are making dumb down kids. Just for the sake of ruling over them. Not seeing
that, we will lift ourselves up, when we lift them up to their potintial. Why
are we so scared to let them surpass us in their thinking.  
>  
> Respect is the key word to bring our humanity to a higher plain. Let the
natual selection of humanity, that all communities has their ways of living and
when all the warmongers that seek power for whatever reason dissapear and let
the natual selection for human nature progress. Then, we use our enternal energy
to progess to are destiny. I have no fantasy that is will happen over night, but
if we don't start down this road of our greatest potintial we will never get
there. To let our energy such in the "Celestine Prophecy" to occur again we are
doomed to repeat history. I truly believe we are here for a higher purpose.
> Gwen Luchin
>
> --- On Wed, 5/20/09, Janos Biro <janosbirozero@ ...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Janos Biro <janosbirozero@ ...>
> Subject: Re: [ishmael_discussion ] Where'd everybody go?
> To: ishmael_discussion@ yahoogroups. com
> Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 8:47 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> My group in Brazil is still active, but the main reason for that is
> that we departed from discussing Daniel Quinn and started to discuss
> other authors, like John Zerzan, broadening the critique.
>
> Janos
>
> 2009/5/19 Jim <jimbo435@yahoo. com>:
> >
> >
> > Looks like this group died out. Is there a new "hot spot" got Ishmaelian
> > discussion?
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
>
> --
> http://antizero. rg3.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Mother nature" as in something that we don't belong to...

I see ;)

--- In ishmael_discussion@yahoogroups.com, Gwen Luchin <co81004@...> wrote:
>
> In this day of understanding of what has happen in the history of our world
and how is came to what we are today, why is there such disbalief of what has
made our world the way it is. We as humans have to take resposibility of
ourselves and our world. To come to terms to be more loving and caring to
ourselve and to our world.
>  
> Mother nature will take care of herself, she is a living breathing thing, if
we don't show her respect and every thing on this is planet we are doomed to
repeat it again.
>  
> As for our children in "My Ishmeal" to what we have done to them is so true.
We are making dumb down kids. Just for the sake of ruling over them. Not seeing
that, we will lift ourselves up, when we lift them up to their potintial. Why
are we so scared to let them surpass us in their thinking.  
>  
> Respect is the key word to bring our humanity to a higher plain. Let the
natual selection of humanity, that all communities has their ways of living and
when all the warmongers that seek power for whatever reason dissapear and let
the natual selection for human nature progress. Then, we use our enternal energy
to progess to are destiny. I have no fantasy that is will happen over night, but
if we don't start down this road of our greatest potintial we will never get
there. To let our energy such in the "Celestine Prophecy" to occur again we are
doomed to repeat history. I truly believe we are here for a higher purpose.
> Gwen Luchin
>
> --- On Wed, 5/20/09, Janos Biro <janosbirozero@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Janos Biro <janosbirozero@...>
> Subject: Re: [ishmael_discussion] Where'd everybody go?
> To: ishmael_discussion@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 8:47 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> My group in Brazil is still active, but the main reason for that is
> that we departed from discussing Daniel Quinn and started to discuss
> other authors, like John Zerzan, broadening the critique.
>
> Janos
>
> 2009/5/19 Jim <jimbo435@yahoo. com>:
> >
> >
> > Looks like this group died out. Is there a new "hot spot" got Ishmaelian
> > discussion?
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
>
> --
> http://antizero. rg3.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

The Ishmael YouTube community seems by far the most active one.

For starters check out these channels:

http://www.youtube.com/user/AdamHintz
http://www.youtube.com/user/ozjthomas
http://www.youtube.com/user/bbbleaver

--- In ishmael_discussion@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jimbo435@...> wrote:
>
> Looks like this group died out. Is there a new "hot spot" got Ishmaelian
discussion?
>
> Jim
>

In this day of understanding of what has happen in the history of our world and
how is came to what we are today, why is there such disbalief of what has made
our world the way it is. We as humans have to take resposibility of ourselves
and our world. To come to terms to be more loving and caring to ourselve and to
our world.
 
Mother nature will take care of herself, she is a living breathing thing, if we
don't show her respect and every thing on this is planet we are doomed to repeat
it again.
 
As for our children in "My Ishmeal" to what we have done to them is so true. We
are making dumb down kids. Just for the sake of ruling over them. Not seeing
that, we will lift ourselves up, when we lift them up to their potintial. Why
are we so scared to let them surpass us in their thinking.  
 
Respect is the key word to bring our humanity to a higher plain. Let the natual
selection of humanity, that all communities has their ways of living and when
all the warmongers that seek power for whatever reason dissapear and let the
natual selection for human nature progress. Then, we use our enternal energy to
progess to are destiny. I have no fantasy that is will happen over night, but if
we don't start down this road of our greatest potintial we will never get there.
To let our energy such in the "Celestine Prophecy" to occur again we are doomed
to repeat history. I truly believe we are here for a higher purpose.
Gwen Luchin

--- On Wed, 5/20/09, Janos Biro <janosbirozero@...> wrote:


From: Janos Biro <janosbirozero@...>
Subject: Re: [ishmael_discussion] Where'd everybody go?
To: ishmael_discussion@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 8:47 AM








My group in Brazil is still active, but the main reason for that is
that we departed from discussing Daniel Quinn and started to discuss
other authors, like John Zerzan, broadening the critique.

Janos

2009/5/19 Jim <jimbo435@yahoo. com>:
>
>
> Looks like this group died out. Is there a new "hot spot" got Ishmaelian
> discussion?
>
> Jim
>
>

--
http://antizero. rg3.net


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My group in Brazil is still active, but the main reason for that is
that we departed from discussing Daniel Quinn and started to discuss
other authors, like John Zerzan, broadening the critique.

Janos

2009/5/19 Jim <jimbo435@...>:
>
>
> Looks like this group died out. Is there a new "hot spot" got Ishmaelian
> discussion?
>
> Jim
>
>



--
http://antizero.rg3.net

--- In ishmael_discussion@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jimbo435@...> wrote:
>
> Looks like this group died out. Is there a new "hot spot" got Ishmaelian
discussion?
>
> Jim
>
I hope the complacentcy (or the feeling of hopelessness) of people has made the
world the saddest I have ever seen. My hopes have not been deterred. I talk to
people about the concepts of Ishmeal when the oppertunity arises. Every day I
try to live a lttle of the things I have read in this trilagy of books. To all
that read this,if we use these in our daily lives the changes we make is for us
and not the rest of the world, that is all we can change, is ourselves.

I sencerly wish there were other to talk to, in our day to day going on. Just to
know there are other that feel the way I do would be nice.

Jim, thank you for your e-mail and concern.
Gwen Luchin
co81004@...

--- In ishmael_discussion@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jimbo435@...> wrote:
>
> Looks like this group died out. Is there a new "hot spot" got Ishmaelian
discussion?
>
> Jim
>
I hope the complacentcy (or the feeling of hopelessness) of people has made the
world the saddest I have ever seen. My hopes have not been deterred. I talk to
people about the concepts of Ishmeal when the oppertunity arises. Every day I
try to live a lttle of the things I have read in this trilagy of books. To all
that read this,if we use these in our daily lives the changes we make is for us
and not the rest of the world, that is all we can change, is ourselves.

I sencerly wish there were other to talk to, in our day to day going on. Just to
know there are other that feel the way I do would be nice.

Jim, thank you for your e-mail and concern.
Gwen Luchin
co81004@...

Looks like this group died out. Is there a new "hot spot" got Ishmaelian
discussion?

Jim

I liked the part about making politicians suffer. Simple but unique
point of view, one you normally don't hear put quite like that.
Unfortunately at the moment they own us, and we are
merely paying rent.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I lissen to the Jarad Diamond report on PBS and I aggree with his line

of thought. Look at the Aid crises, prime example of the higher archey

not doing any thing until it affected them. His annallogy of Katrina is

another. What really worries me is the fires in Austrilla, is that a

cleansing that is wanted by some people that thier conformaty.This

country that is last to the uniqueness we have on earth. Where will it

in to "Mans" greediness that we all have to be the same.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I lissen to the Jarad Diamond report on PBS and I aggree with his line
of thought. Look at the Aid crises, prime example of the higher archey
not doing any thing until it affected them. His annallogy of Katrina is
another. What really worries me is the fires in Austrilla, is that a
cleansing that is wanted by some people that thier conformaty.This
country that is last to the uniqueness we have on earth. Where will it
in to "Mans" greediness that we all have to be the same.
--- In ishmael_discussion@yahoogroups.com, Blurt aka Castaway
<friarslantern@...> wrote:
>
> He was interviewed on today's Newshour, in the segment "Societies and
Anxieties".  I was pleased to hear him say he was slightly optimistic
about the future of the U.S.
>
> Link:
>
> http://www.pbs.org/newshour/newshour_index.html
>
> Castaway
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Michael d13wei@...
> To: ishmael_discussion@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 3:37:01 PM
> Subject: [ishmael_discussion] Daemon
>
>
> I just finished reading DAEMON, by Daniel Suarez. I picked it up
> because it promised to be an exciting adventure novel also involving
> computers, the internet, MMORGs, and the like.
>
> What I did not expect was that it would also have an Ishmael-like
> messaage: That our world is headed over a cliff, and that nothing can
> stop it. That massive change is needed. Of course, in the book it's
> because of different reasons, but that didn't stop me from thinking of
> Daniel Quinn's books and the impact they have had on my life.
>
> What about you? What kind of impact has ISHMAEL and the other books
> had on YOUR life?
>
> I'm the list owner. I first started this list in 2002. We now have
> 445 members. It's been quiet lately, but I know that over the years
> this list has been a great outlet for discussion for many people, and
> it has been a great way for many to reach out to others who feel the
> same way about ISHMAEL.
>
> Like I said, it's been quiet lately, but let's fix that. Let's get
> the discussion going again. Let's start with this:
>
> What kind of impact has ISHMAEL had on your life, and what are you
> doing about it? If nothing, what do you WANT to do about it?
>
> Mike, list owner
>
> p.s. If you want to buy the book DAEMON, it's a great read. Click
> the link below to buy it on Amazon, if you so desire:
>
> <a href="http://www.amazon. com/gp/product/ 0525951113?
> ie=UTF8&tag= themartianant-
> 20&linkCode= as2&camp= 1789&creative= 9325&creativeASI N=0525951113"
>Daemo
> n</a><img src="http://www.assoc- amazon.com/ e/ir?t=themartia nant-
> 20&l=as2&o=1& a=0525951113" width="1" height="1" border="0" alt=""
> style="border: none !important; margin:0px !important;" />
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

He was interviewed on today's Newshour, in the segment "Societies and
Anxieties".  I was pleased to hear him say he was slightly optimistic about the
future of the U.S.

Link:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/newshour_index.html

Castaway
 




________________________________
From: Michael <d13wei@...>
To: ishmael_discussion@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 3:37:01 PM
Subject: [ishmael_discussion] Daemon


I just finished reading DAEMON, by Daniel Suarez. I picked it up
because it promised to be an exciting adventure novel also involving
computers, the internet, MMORGs, and the like.

What I did not expect was that it would also have an Ishmael-like
messaage: That our world is headed over a cliff, and that nothing can
stop it. That massive change is needed. Of course, in the book it's
because of different reasons, but that didn't stop me from thinking of
Daniel Quinn's books and the impact they have had on my life.

What about you? What kind of impact has ISHMAEL and the other books
had on YOUR life?

I'm the list owner. I first started this list in 2002. We now have
445 members. It's been quiet lately, but I know that over the years
this list has been a great outlet for discussion for many people, and
it has been a great way for many to reach out to others who feel the
same way about ISHMAEL.

Like I said, it's been quiet lately, but let's fix that. Let's get
the discussion going again. Let's start with this:

What kind of impact has ISHMAEL had on your life, and what are you
doing about it? If nothing, what do you WANT to do about it?

Mike, list owner

p.s. If you want to buy the book DAEMON, it's a great read. Click
the link below to buy it on Amazon, if you so desire:

<a href="http://www.amazon. com/gp/product/ 0525951113?
ie=UTF8&tag= themartianant-
20&linkCode= as2&camp= 1789&creative= 9325&creativeASI N=0525951113" >Daemo
n</a><img src="http://www.assoc- amazon.com/ e/ir?t=themartia nant-
20&l=as2&o=1& a=0525951113" width="1" height="1" border="0" alt=""
style="border: none !important; margin:0px !important;" />




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I just finished reading DAEMON, by Daniel Suarez.  I picked it up
because it promised to be an exciting adventure novel also involving
computers, the internet, MMORGs, and the like.

What I did not expect was that it would also have an Ishmael-like
messaage:  That our world is headed over a cliff, and that nothing can
stop it.  That massive change is needed.  Of course, in the book it's
because of different reasons, but that didn't stop me from thinking of
Daniel Quinn's books and the impact they have had on my life.

What about you?  What kind of impact has ISHMAEL and the other books
had on YOUR life?

I'm the list owner.  I first started this list in 2002.  We now have
445 members.  It's been quiet lately, but I know that over the years
this list has been a great outlet for discussion for many people, and
it has been a great way for many to reach out to others who feel the
same way about ISHMAEL.

Like I said, it's been quiet lately, but let's fix that.  Let's get
the discussion going again.  Let's start with this:

What kind of impact has ISHMAEL had on your life, and what are you
doing about it?  If nothing, what do you WANT to do about it?

Mike, list owner

p.s.  If you want to buy the book DAEMON, it's a great read.  Click
the link below to buy it on Amazon, if you so desire:

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0525951113?
ie=UTF8&tag=themartianant-
20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0525951113">Daemo
n</a><img src="http://www.assoc-amazon.com/e/ir?t=themartianant-
20&l=as2&o=1&a=0525951113" width="1" height="1" border="0" alt=""
style="border:none !important; margin:0px !important;" />

The Commons Moment Is Now
How a small, dedicated group of people can help transform the world

10 Nov 2008 / Jay Walljasper

Topics Filed Under: Commons Strategies

Tags: 2008 Election; commons movement; conservatives; Obama

Social change is not something easily diagrammed on a chart. Even
sweeping transformations that rearrange the values of an entire
culture such as the countercultural upheavals of the 1960s and the
Thatcher/Reagan Revolution of the 1980s begin imperceptibly, quietly
but steadily entering people’s thinking until one day it seems those
new ideas have been there all along. Even in our age of instantaneous
informationâ€"when a scrap of information can zoom around the globe in
mere secondsâ€"people’s worldviews still evolve gradually.

Learning from the Right
This is exactly how the free market paradigm of corporate power came
to rule the world. Dreamed up in large part by an obscure circle of
Austrian economists, it surfaced in the U.S. during the 1950s as a
curious political sideshow promoted by figures like novelist Ayn Rand
and her protégé Alan Greenspan.

The idea of the market as the bedrock of all public policy entered
mainstream debate during the Goldwater campaign in 1964, which
appeared to mark both its debut and demise. In the wake of the
Republicans’ spectacular defeat in elections that year, small bands of
pro-market partisans refused to accept the unpopularity of their
ideas. Instead, they boldly launched a new movement that would
eventually rearrange American economic life from bottom to top.

Bankrolled by wealthy supporters who understood that modern politics
is a battle of ideas, market-oriented right wingers slowly were able
to shed their image as fusty reactionaries swimming against the tide
of human progress and refashion themselves as visionaries championing
a bright, bold course for the future.

Their ranks swelled throughout the late 1970s as an unlikely
combination of libertarian idealists, corporate opportunists and
anxious defenders of traditional values signed up for the cause. The
rapid-fire election of Margaret Thatcher in Britain, Ronald Reagan in
the U.S. and Francois Mitterrand in France confirmed market
fundamentalists’ global ascendancy. Thatcher and Reagan were
articulate advocates for the idea that the market should be the chief
organizing principle of all human endeavor. Mitterand, on the other
hand, was a dedicated socialist but soon discovered that the rising
influence of international capital rendered him powerless to carry out
promises of his 1981 election victory. That was the sure sign that we
had entered a new age of corporate domination.

Since then our society has been heavily shaped by these forces; Alan
Greenspan became the most influential economic policymaker in modern
history, and the market paradigm is seen by many citizens not as an
ideology that can be debated but as an indisputable truth on the same
level as the laws of physics.

It feels that most things in our lives are up for sale to the highest
bidderâ€"from water in those ubiquitous plastic bottles to the sky
itself, which can be traded by corporations who have been granted
pollution rights to the atmosphere through cap and trade schemes.
Reform movements of the left and center have successfully resisted
certain extreme elements of the right-wing agenda but overall they
have lost considerable ground over the past three decades as free
market advocates convinced many people that the corporatist blueprint
for the future is inevitable. Progress, which was once widely viewed
as the gradual expansion of social justice goals, is now often seen as
the expansion of corporate power and privatization.

Introducing the Commons Paradigm
But recently there is evidence that the market may have passed its
peak as the defining idea of our era. Serious concern about the fate
of the earth, especially global warming, offered the first signs of a
shift. Then, recent financial upheavals revealed the glaring
weaknesses of the current economic model for all to see, forcing even
many market true believers scrambling to embrace new policies and
positions.

A sudden switch in the mood of the U.S.â€"the driving engine of free
market policies for many yearsâ€"was seen most dramatically in Obama’s
and the Democrats’ decisive victories this fall. While Obama has not
used phrases like “the commons”,” his clearly articulated approach to
governance is built upon ideas of the common good, which creates an
opening to talk about the commons to a much wider audience.

A group of activists and thinkers championing a commons-based society
is prepared to do just that by challenging the lockhold market
ideology now holds over society. At this point, they’re a small bunch
with backgrounds in various social causes, movements and internet
initiativesâ€"not so different from the dedicated market advocates of
the 1950s and ‘60s, except in where they place their hopes. These
commoners, as they call themselves, argue that a commons paradigm is
beginning to emerge which could replace the market paradigm.

This idea of the commonsâ€"which simply means things we inherit or
create together that belong equally to all of us such as air, water,
public spaces, the internet, social services, culture and much
moreâ€"could become a rallying point for people of diverse ideological
stripes who question the market party line now enforced by corporate
bosses, government bureaucrats and the economics profession.

The current rash of crises in modern lifeâ€"including climate change,
global poverty and social alienationâ€" arise from an over reliance on
the market as tool to get things done. That inevitably leads to
widespread devaluing and destruction of the commons, with negative
effects that can be felt everywhere in our lives, from shabby
conditions in local parks to the growing sense of powerlessness most
people about the decisions that affect their futures.

The rise of a commons-based society would not mean wholly dismantling
the market system of economics but taming it. Ideally, the market and
the commons work together to keep society in a kind of natural
balance. There is a difference between using the market as an
efficient technique for allocating resources in appropriate situations
(market tools) and prescribing it as an all-purpose solution for every
social and economic problem (market paradigm). Rejecting the narrow
“private sector vs. state” arguments that have defined political
discussion for so long, commoners envision a society that utilizing
the strengths of the market along with those of civil society and
government to provide for the common good.

This Unique Moment in History
Public recognition of the commons is rising, best seen in this
dramatic statistic from the source that best measures the zeitgeist of
our times: google. In June 2004, a google search for “commons” turned
up 6.3 million hits. That search repeated in November 2008 yielded 255
millionâ€" 40 times as many references in just over four years. Internet
growth accounts for a part of this gain, but it’s clear that the
phrase “commons” and the wealth of ideas behind it are entering
popular consciousness.

But as powerful as this idea is, the commons is not widely understood
by the public. The phrase resonates in most people’s ears, but is
often understood to mean specific concerns such as public lands or
civic spaces. The commons actually represents an interconnecting web
of critical concerns that reach deep into the realms of culture,
ecology, technology, economics, politics, human relationships and
social systems. There is a need for public education campaigns that
excite people from all walks of life about the potential of a
commons-based society to improve their own lives and reorder society’s
priorities.

The growing interest in creating a commons-based society is fueled in
part by the auspicious historical moment that is dawning all around
us. It’s reminiscent of the time thirty years ago when liberalism was
losing its footing and conservative policymakers refashioned their old
political rhetoric based on social exclusion and apologies for
corporate capitalism into a shiny new philosophy known as “the
market”. Previously the thrust of right-wing thought had been focused
on what they were against (civil rights, labor unions, social programs
etc.), but claiming the market as their mission allowed them to
showcase what they were for. The success of that “re-branding” has
shaped our world.

The commons now offers a similar opportunity to turn things around in
the political land economic spheres. Yet unlike the theory of the
market, the commons is not just old wine in new bottles; it marks a
substantive new dimension in political and social thinking.

The promise of a commons-based society offers considerable appeal for
progressives after a long period in which the bulk of their political
engagement has been in reaction to right-wing initiatives. Activists
across many social movements, now aware that an expansive political
agenda will succeed better than narrow identity politics and
single-issue crusades, are starting to embrace the language and ideas
of the commons. This line of thinking also appeals to a few
traditional conservatives who regret the wanton destruction of social
and environmental assets carried out in the name of a free market
revolution. In the truest sense of the word, the commons is a
conservative as well as progressive virtue because it aims to conserve
and nurture all those things necessary for creating a better world.

At this moment in history growing numbers of citizensâ€"including many
who never before questioned the status quoâ€"are willing to explore
perspectives that once would have seemed radical. Millions of
Americans are now making shifts in their personal lives such as buying
organic foods, trying alternative medicine, collaborating in creating
software, and beginning to search for something that offers a greater
sense of meaning in the world. They may not yet understand the idea of
the commons, but they are looking for something different in their lives.

The time seems ripe today for a decisive shift in worldview. People
everywhere are yearning to tap the potential of the human spirit to
create a better world, and the dream of a commons-based society holds
great practical potential to transform that hope into constructive
action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uIeKXjnYWA&feature=related

--
Yours in truth,
Joseph S. Gaglio MHS
"They counted on being able to punish them into being better, on being able to
inspire them into being better, on being able to educate them into being better.
And after ten thousand years of trying to improve people, without a trace of
success -- they wouldn't dream of turning their attention elsewhere." --Quinn

--- In ishmael_discussion@yahoogroups.com, "thestellarhippo"
<ericksonla@...> wrote:
>
> With all the theoretical talk around here, its weird to bring up
> current events for once.
>
> As I've been watching the NY Times readers responses to Congress,
> Paulson and Bernanke, I've seen a few people here and there
> question, "why don't Paulson and Bernanke tell us what will happen if
> we don't do this 700 billion bailout, or if the bailout doesn't
> work?"  It occurs to me, maybe the secretish meeting between these
> men and Congress last week could very easily have been Paulson and
> Bernanke saying, "Listen, (we finally realize what those Ish group
> folks have been saying all along), what we've been doing isn't
> working.  In fact, its so broken from its very foundations, if we
> don't do some major work right now, its going to collapse, and soon.
> We're writing a bill that will bail us out for a huge sum of money
> for a while, and you better pass it quick or we're going down."
>
> So what do y'all thing?  Could this be one of the triggers we've been
> hypothesizing?  If so, do Bernanke and Paulson (if not Congress and
> (maybe even) Bush) realize that?
>
> Considering whether I should be working or spending time in my garden,
> Luke
>

The phrase "shit's about to hit the fan" comes to mind...

Hi Luke,

I'm glad you brought this up. Without getting too "heady" about this, the
current financial crisis can be viewed through several lenses. It can be
viewed ecologically and anthropologically (both relevent to Ish talk). It can
also be viewed politically and philosophically (both more accessible to the
wider audience).

This whole crisis stinks on so many levels. I'm a scientist, not an economist,
but it seems to me that much of this can be blamed on greed,
deregulation, and corruption. I think most of us Ish people would agree that the
financial system has many problems, not the least of which is that it money as
it's currently understood does not accurately reflect the real resources it's
supposed to represent. More immediately, however, the current banking system is
a sham. This sham goes back centuries, and it would take too long to explain it
here. But let me just say this.

The Federal Reserve should not even exist. It is an unconstitutional, corrupt
organization that illegal steals billions of dollars from the American people
every year. These experts, for all their knowledge, are either all ignorant to
the underlying fallacies of their system, or they are all too aware of it but
persist in a conspiracy to defraud America and the world. This crisis creates
the "perfect storm" for them to buy more stuff and seize more power, and the
taxpayer gets stuck with all of the bill and none of the benefits. These people
want to socialize risk and privatize profits, and it's sickening. In my opinion,
this corporate bailout should not take place, unless there is serious reform of
the system, and punishment for those behind the current crisis.

One step at a time. Yeah, maybe this is just rearranging deck chairs on the
Titanic, but maybe if we do a good job, then we can actually steer for a change.
My 2 cents (which are now worth 0.02 cents, adjusting for inflation).

Regards,
Gaddy
Gaddy Bergmann
The Feral World
http://GaddyBergmann.blogspot.com


"You know, we're living in a society!" - George Costanza

Deck chairs...Titanic...


-----Original Message-----
From: thestellarhippo <ericksonla@...>
To: ishmael_discussion@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 11:47 am
Subject: [ishmael_discussion] Financial Crisis






With all the theoretical talk around here, its weird to bring up
current events for once.

As I've been watching the NY Times readers responses to Congress,
Paulson and Bernanke, I've seen a few people here and there
question, "why don't Paulson and Bernanke tell us what will happen if
we don't do this 700 billion bailout, or if the bailout doesn't
work?" It occurs to me, maybe the secretish meeting between these
men and Congress last week could very easily have been Paulson and
Bernanke saying, "Listen, (we finally realize what those Ish group
folks have been saying all along), what we've been doing isn't
working. In fact, its so broken from its very foundations, if we
don't do some major work right now, its going to collapse, and soon.
We're writing a bill that will bail us out for a huge sum of money
for a while, and you better pass it quick or we're going down."

So what do y'all thing? Could this be one of the triggers we've been
hypothesizing? If so, do Bernanke and Paulson (if not Congress and
(maybe even) Bush) realize that?

Considering whether I should be working or spending time in my garden,
Luke






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

With all the theoretical talk around here, its weird to bring up
current events for once.

As I've been watching the NY Times readers responses to Congress,
Paulson and Bernanke, I've seen a few people here and there
question, "why don't Paulson and Bernanke tell us what will happen if
we don't do this 700 billion bailout, or if the bailout doesn't
work?"  It occurs to me, maybe the secretish meeting between these
men and Congress last week could very easily have been Paulson and
Bernanke saying, "Listen, (we finally realize what those Ish group
folks have been saying all along), what we've been doing isn't
working.  In fact, its so broken from its very foundations, if we
don't do some major work right now, its going to collapse, and soon.
We're writing a bill that will bail us out for a huge sum of money
for a while, and you better pass it quick or we're going down."

So what do y'all thing?  Could this be one of the triggers we've been
hypothesizing?  If so, do Bernanke and Paulson (if not Congress and
(maybe even) Bush) realize that?

Considering whether I should be working or spending time in my garden,
Luke

If you can wade through all the "hoogy moogy", personal minutia and
extraneous cosmology, here's a fairly comprehensive look at the Mayan
2012 end-date issue. <http://2stroker.org/early-essay-forAGAG.html>
There are links to other "end time" indigenous traditions, too.

I couldn't find any specific on-line citations, but Martin Prechtel
has laid to rest the idea of world ending several times in his essays
and books. To paraphrase him: "The day after the end of the Mayan
Calendar in 2012, something new starts all over again"

best,
Tom Warren

--- In ishmael_discussion@yahoogroups.com, wclary5424@... wrote:
>
> Two thoughts...
>
> A.? One cannot generalize that much.? I am aware of?primal cultures
that have end-time myths...but that does not necessarily mean that
their ancestors had them.? All cultures are in some degree of constant
flux.? And what we observe today (even in foraging societies) may or
may not be similar to what was going on thousands or even hundreds of
years ago.
>
> B.? The Maya were civilized, but much of the fundamental thought of
their culture is profoundly different from that of ?Eurasian culture.?
Their collapse was similar to what we're facing in thermodynamic
terms, but they had other issues that dealt with politics and religion
that are far different from those we face.? When I first read the
Popol Vuh and even the Books of Chilam Balam (which deal with Mayan
history in the time just prior to and after the Spanish conquest) 30
some-odd years ago, that was the sense that I got.? As we have
translated other texts directly from the glyphs, that sense has grown,
although it is helpful to correlate what one reads in the texts with
the stories told by the descendents of the Maya who are alive today
(with the same caveat as above.)
>
> BC
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Janos Biro <janosbirozero@...>
> To: ishmael_discussion@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 2:11 pm
> Subject: Re: [ishmael_discussion] re: "end time" myths
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From the indigenous people I know here in Brazil, there was no world
ending
> myth before the arrival of the white man.
>
> But I think there was a indigenous myth of the world being consumed
on fire,
> it came from the peoples who lived next to active volcanoes that
would erupt
> any time. That would really destroy their "world" on fire, which
means the
> wilds or the island the lived.
>
> And Max is right, Mayan culture was a civilized culture, that collapsed.
>
> Janos
>
> 2008/9/13 Max Miles <earthvital@...>
>
> >
> > On Sep 13, 2008, at 10:16 AM, Gene wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I thought the one about the world ending in 2012 was a
> > > Mayan prophecy?
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Gene, Mayan culture is not one of the indigenous peoples Gabriel was
> > talking about. The Mayans had more in common with modern culture in
> > terms of social structures, hierarchies, archetypes, mythologies...
> >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > > Hey, I was just thinking:
> > >
> > > Is it possible that indigenous peoples are less interested in
> > > eschatological myths ?
> > > I mean, I know that most cultures have creation myths, but "end
> > > time" myths seem to be more present in salvationist religions.
> > >
> > > What say you ?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> http://antizero.wikispaces.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Two thoughts...

A.? One cannot generalize that much.? I am aware of?primal cultures that have
end-time myths...but that does not necessarily mean that their ancestors had
them.? All cultures are in some degree of constant flux.? And what we observe
today (even in foraging societies) may or may not be similar to what was going
on thousands or even hundreds of years ago.

B.? The Maya were civilized, but much of the fundamental thought of their
culture is profoundly different from that of ?Eurasian culture.? Their collapse
was similar to what we're facing in thermodynamic terms, but they had other
issues that dealt with politics and religion that are far different from those
we face.? When I first read the Popol Vuh and even the Books of Chilam Balam
(which deal with Mayan history in the time just prior to and after the Spanish
conquest) 30 some-odd years ago, that was the sense that I got.? As we have
translated other texts directly from the glyphs, that sense has grown, although
it is helpful to correlate what one reads in the texts with the stories told by
the descendents of the Maya who are alive today (with the same caveat as above.)

BC





-----Original Message-----
From: Janos Biro <janosbirozero@...>
To: ishmael_discussion@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 2:11 pm
Subject: Re: [ishmael_discussion] re: "end time" myths






From the indigenous people I know here in Brazil, there was no world ending
myth before the arrival of the white man.

But I think there was a indigenous myth of the world being consumed on fire,
it came from the peoples who lived next to active volcanoes that would erupt
any time. That would really destroy their "world" on fire, which means the
wilds or the island the lived.

And Max is right, Mayan culture was a civilized culture, that collapsed.

Janos

2008/9/13 Max Miles <earthvital@...>

>
> On Sep 13, 2008, at 10:16 AM, Gene wrote:
>
> >
> > I thought the one about the world ending in 2012 was a
> > Mayan prophecy?
> >
> >
>
> Gene, Mayan culture is not one of the indigenous peoples Gabriel was
> talking about. The Mayans had more in common with modern culture in
> terms of social structures, hierarchies, archetypes, mythologies...
>
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > Hey, I was just thinking:
> >
> > Is it possible that indigenous peoples are less interested in
> > eschatological myths ?
> > I mean, I know that most cultures have creation myths, but "end
> > time" myths seem to be more present in salvationist religions.
> >
> > What say you ?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

--
http://antizero.wikispaces.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I never thought about it, but it looks perfectly reasonable...

Janos

2008/9/13 <wclary5424@...>

>   That's a gross (although popular) New Ageish distortion of Mayan
> cosmology that I think has more to do with the thought of Terrence McKenna
> than the Mayans.? One of their many calendar cycles ends sometime around
> four years from now...there's disagreement about precisely when.? Some
> people say on the Winter solstice 2012.? A better guess would be that it is
> tied to a transit of the planet Venus, since the myths from which this
> interpretation has sprung apparently deal with the deities tied to that
> planet, although that is also uncertain.? (Our knowledge of the precise
> meaning of the Mayan glyphs is not as accurate as some writers sometimes
> imply.? Not only that, but that the texts and inscriptions?involved evolved
> over the course of hundreds of years, and words change their meanings over
> time, as can be understood immediately when one tries to read an English
> text from 600 years ago.)
>
> One can read certain Mayan texts in certain ways that could imply that some
> people thought that the world would end around the end of the current
> baktun.? But they can also be read in such a way that makes it look like the
> whole cycle starts over again...kind of like January 1 coming after December
> 31.?
>
> BC
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gene <krokodily@... <krokodily%40yahoo.com>>
> To: ishmael_discussion@yahoogroups.com<ishmael_discussion%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 1:16 pm
> Subject: [ishmael_discussion] re: "end time" myths
>
> I thought the one about the world ending in 2012 was a
> Mayan prophecy?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Hey, I was just thinking:
>
> Is it possible that indigenous peoples are less interested in
> eschatological myths ?
> I mean, I know that most cultures have creation myths, but "end time" myths
> seem to be more present in salvationist religions.
>
> What say you ?
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



--
http://antizero.wikispaces.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That's a gross (although popular) New Ageish distortion of Mayan cosmology that
I think has more to do with the thought of Terrence McKenna than the Mayans.?
One of their many calendar cycles ends sometime around four years from
now...there's disagreement about precisely when.? Some people say on the Winter
solstice 2012.? A better guess would be that it is tied to a transit of the
planet Venus, since the myths from which this interpretation has sprung
apparently deal with the deities tied to that planet, although that is also
uncertain.? (Our knowledge of the precise meaning of the Mayan glyphs is not as
accurate as some writers sometimes imply.? Not only that, but that the texts and
inscriptions?involved evolved over the course of hundreds of years, and words
change their meanings over time, as can be understood immediately when one tries
to read an English text from 600 years ago.)

One can read certain Mayan texts in certain ways that could imply that some
people thought that the world would end around the end of the current baktun.?
But they can also be read in such a way that makes it look like the whole cycle
starts over again...kind of like January 1 coming after December 31.?

BC




-----Original Message-----
From: Gene <krokodily@...>
To: ishmael_discussion@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 1:16 pm
Subject: [ishmael_discussion] re: "end time" myths







I thought the one about the world ending in 2012 was a
Mayan prophecy?

----------------------------------------------------------
Hey, I was just thinking:

Is it possible that indigenous peoples are less interested in
eschatological myths ?
I mean, I know that most cultures have creation myths, but "end time" myths seem
to be more present in salvationist religions.

What say you ?
















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From the indigenous people I know here in Brazil, there was no world ending
myth before the arrival of the white man.

But I think there was a indigenous myth of the world being consumed on fire,
it came from the peoples who lived next to active volcanoes that would erupt
any time. That would really destroy their "world" on fire, which means the
wilds or the island the lived.

And Max is right, Mayan culture was a civilized culture, that collapsed.

Janos

2008/9/13 Max Miles <earthvital@...>

>
> On Sep 13, 2008, at 10:16 AM, Gene wrote:
>
> >
> > I thought the one about the world ending in 2012 was a
> > Mayan prophecy?
> >
> >
>
> Gene, Mayan culture is not one of the indigenous peoples Gabriel was
> talking about. The Mayans had more in common with modern culture in
> terms of social structures, hierarchies, archetypes, mythologies...
>
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > Hey, I was just thinking:
> >
> > Is it possible that indigenous peoples are less interested in
> > eschatological myths ?
> > I mean, I know that most cultures have creation myths, but "end
> > time" myths seem to be more present in salvationist religions.
> >
> > What say you ?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



--
http://antizero.wikispaces.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Sep 13, 2008, at 10:16 AM, Gene wrote:

>
> I thought the one about the world ending in 2012 was a
> Mayan prophecy?
>
>





Gene, Mayan culture is not one of the indigenous peoples Gabriel was
talking about. The Mayans had more in common with modern culture in
terms of social structures, hierarchies, archetypes, mythologies...


> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Hey, I was just thinking:
>
> Is it possible that indigenous peoples are less interested in
> eschatological myths ?
> I mean, I know that most cultures have creation myths, but "end
> time" myths seem to be more present in salvationist religions.
>
> What say you ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I thought the one about the world ending in 2012 was a
Mayan prophecy?

-------------------------------------------------------------
Hey, I was just thinking:

Is it possible that indigenous peoples are less interested in
eschatological myths ?
I mean, I know that most cultures have creation myths, but "end time" myths seem
to be more present in salvationist religions.

What say you ?

Hey, I was just thinking:

Is it possible that indigenous peoples are less interested in
eschatological myths ?

I mean, I know that most cultures have creation myths, but "end time"
myths seem to be more present in salvationist religions.

What say you ?