You'd need internal conflict first and rogue
Culture elements to side with another, expanding,
Involved force. If they had met the Idirans under these
conditions, they might not have prevailed. What happened when
the Roman empire fell was that the cities remained
Roman while the countryside in-between was under the
control of the Goths, etc. A likely scenario for a
Culture in collapse?

That would have to be quite some horde. How would you go about bringing
something like the culture down?

>> the big C had been around for seven or
eight thousand years at the time of the Idiran war,
hadn't it? <br><br>Yes, but they were considered
interesting bit players, rather than having a starring role.
Whupping the Idirans, against all expectations, thrust
them into the limelight. Think of how Rome expanded
for a few hundred years (from 700 BC) and then
defeated the Carthaginians (um, 250 BC ish). Shortly
after, they conquered Greece and the Med was theirs. A
couple of hundred years later it started to show the
first signs of the internal politics and corruption
that helped consign the Roman Empire to history in
about 500-600 AD.<br><br>Could the Culture be going
through a similar process? Will we see the Culture
overrun with barbarian hordes, with the complicity of
some rogue Minds?

Do you think IMB is trying to write a 'future history' of the culture, or is it
just a (large) plot device on which to hang his stories...?<br><br>Tim

Aieee, don't say things like that. Besides, the
big C had been around for seven or eight thousand
years at the time of the Idiran war, hadn't it? Hardly
a new kid on the block.<br>I though LTWW opened up
some promising new story threads for the Culture
series: it was never revealed who the Chelgrian's
mysterious allies were, and the hints that they may of been
a rogue group within the Culture itself perhaps
ties in with the events in Excession to some extent.

Yes, but tangentally. There are lots of
references to the Idiran war. There is a sense, in CP, that
the Culture is the new kid on the block, while in
LTWW there is a hint that maybe the Culture's golden
age is drawing to a close.<br><br>Could LTWW be IMB's
last Culture novel?

well we now know where the title of look to windward came from, there seems to
be a link to Consider Philebas (title to title at least), are the books linked
in any way...?<br><br>Tim

I've just got my copy of Consider Phlebas down
and the introductory quote is by T.S. Eliot in "The
Waste Land":<br><br>"Gentile or Jew<br>O you who turn
the wheel and look to windward,<br>Consider Phlebas,
who was once handsome and tall as you."<br><br>I
agree with you in that the bit about "O you who turn
the wheel.." seems to sound a bit like a reference to
the Hub Minds who watch over orbitals, which is
particularly relevant to the story in Look to
Windward.<br><br>As far as Phlebas is concerned, maybe we need to
track down the whole of the T.S. Eliot poem. Maybe it's
a reference to the fact that a jaunty, adventurous
spirit (like the Culture's) will inevitabley become
withered. (Clutching a straws here..)<br><br>And what do
you mean "where is everybody?" We've only recently
started "recruiting"! Didn't you bring any friends with
you?!? Tsk! Welcome, anyway!

wow, busy place you've got here. where is
everybody?<br>so what is the significance of the title of CP? With
Bank's latest I think I understand the look to windward
thing: the culture has to keep an eye out for those who
would seek to harm it (is that right?), but...but...who
is phlebas? the only thing of him I know is that at
some point he may of been about as handsome and tall
as I am (poor guy).

>>There is a passage I believe about 3/4 of
the way through the book that starts out with
'consider phlebas...' I believe this is the only use of the
phrase in the book but it is in relation to the main
character, description by comparison, although I finished
the book maybe last year some time and can't remember
the specifics.<br><br>Yeah - I'm really going to have
to re-read CP. Certain scenes are still fairly vivid
in my memory (particularly the beach
freaks).<br><br>&gt;&gt;If I am wrong I promise to... change my name to
Judy...<br><br>Fine by me!<br><br>&gt;&gt;I found Horza in CF to have
crossed the line of depravity, both in deed, and in
morality. Banks is certainly imaginative, and I am
continually titillated, nay, ensorcelled, by his continual
ability to reason new schemes of personal morality for
his characters.<br><br>Hmm, the thing that surprised
me most about the Changer was that he was physically
very close to being "Culture" but was devoted to
fighting against it. I don't think he was morally "bad" -
he just thought he had different beliefs to the
Culture. I guess in the same way that UK Eurosceptics
don't like the EU - it doesn't make them "bad"; more
likely narrow-minded. Put people with a narrow
perspective into tricky situations and they aren't exactly
going to be nice. Plus, this guy is a soldier... But
amongst all the other characters he often came across as
the "good guy" - if slightly misguided. Makes most SF
characters look laughably one
dimensional.<br>("ensorcelled"???!! - blimey!)<br><br>&gt;&gt;BTW, my fav book
has to
be the Use of Weapons which I found to be exquisite.
My emotions were riptide in several places. I
certainly felt I had been whispered a secret by God when I
finished the book.<br><br>Yeah, good ending. Wasn't
expecting that!<br><br>&gt;&gt;Next I guess would be
Against a Dark Background. Sharrow seems dark, obsessed,
and defiant all as a means for self-justification.
<br><br>Supposedly bleak, but quite a positive ending. Again, some
fun twists at the end.

There is a passage I believe about 3/4 of the way
through the book that starts out with 'consider
phlebas...' <br><br>I believe this is the only use of the
phrase in the book but it is in relation to the main
character, description by comparison, although I finished
the book maybe last year some time and can't remember
the specifics. If I am wrong I promise to...read the
book again, change my name to Judy, and move to the
country there to churn butter monday through
thursday.<br><br>I found Horza in CF to have crossed the line of
depravity, both in deed, and in morality. Banks is certainly
imaginative, and I am continually titillated, nay,
ensorcelled, by his continual ability to reason new schemes of
personal morality for his characters.<br><br>BTW, my fav
book has to be the Use of Weapons which I found to be
exquisite. My emotions were riptide in several places. I
certainly felt I had been whispered a secret by God when I
finished the book.<br><br>Next I guess would be Against a
Dark Background. Sharrow seems dark, obsessed, and
defiant all as a means for self-justification.
<br><br>Jason

State of the Art was one of the more recent IMB
books I read and I enjoyed it immensely. I guess the
highlight was the story regarding the Culture's first
contact with Earth. Feersum Enjin is an excellent book
and I would say it's in my top 5 Iain Banks books
(including straight fiction).<br><br>You're right about SF
often being too formulaic - I had stopped reading SF
altogether until I had read Complicity & the Wasp Factory
and then I went about tracking down a copy of
Consider Philebas. I still tend to steer clear of other SF
though.<br><br>How big is he in the UK? Difficult to quantify but
he's had a artsy television documentary made about him
and he was quoted as being (I think) the next author
in the following list: Shakespear, Austin, Dickens.
I can't remember the exact details, there may have
been another author, and maybe Jane Austin wasn't one
of them. But I think you get the gist. He is a BIG
seller and critically applauded.<br><br>Oh, and welcome
to the club! (Nice name too!)<br><br>Nick

Hey Tim,<br><br>Its been awhile since I read SotA
but I don't remember it being difficult. It was my
first exposure to the Culture. And my first SF read in
a long time. Its presentation of a somewhat
decadent, ornate, complicated Culture whose morality system
was equally ornate was something new and refreshing
to me. My next read was several years later after I
returned to the US where I immediately purchased Feersum
Enjin, also ornate, complicated, and surprising. The
story was a little bizarre to me, which is if anything
good, and there are some elements to the plot and
setting that I didn't like, but the level of complexity
to IMB's plots and character development is a treat
in a genre which frequently uses canned stories and
paint by number characters.<br><br>Btw, online is
better, you're right. <br><br>How big is IMB in the UK?
I've never met anyone who has read him over
here.<br><br>Jason

> A lonely homesick american, whilst living in
Taiwan<br>&gt; (which by the way is great), and desperate for
a<br>&gt; connection to my formative (ie-SF)
upbringing<br>&gt; stumbled upon a book which at first, second,
and<br>&gt; third glance promised to be at the very least a
good<br>&gt; read: State of the Art.<br><br>Hmmm, thats the
short story collection isnt it? Must<br>admit I found
it hard going...<br><br>&gt;Now, I can do nought but
run<br>&gt; shamelessly to the bookstore, scrounging for
titles<br>&gt; that I see published in the UK but take next
to<br>&gt; eternity to make it across the great divide to
the<br>&gt; US!!!<br><br>Buy them online; amazon.co.uk will
have the uk titles,<br>I'm sure they can ship
abroad...<br><br>Tim

A lonely homesick american, whilst living in
Taiwan (which by the way is great), and desperate for a
connection to my formative (ie-SF) upbringing stumbled upon
a book which at first, second, and third glance
promised to be at the very least a good read: State of the
Art. Now, I can do nought but run shamelessly to the
bookstore, scrounging for titles that I see published in the
UK but take next to eternity to make it across the
great divide to the US!!! If Iain M Banks could write
his novels, package them into hypodermics, and sell
them at a candy store, I wouldn't be able to get them
into my veins fast enough!!

Hi Steve<br><br>Yeah, well, having done a quick
search I realised that there were a fair few people out
there that expressed a liking for his Banksness on
their profiles. Hence the invitation. Good to see
you.<br><br>I'm lucky enough to have got Look to Windward for
Christmas and am rapidly closing in on the ending. Very
good book. When you say you've read everything, does
that include straight fiction or just his SF
stuff?<br><br>What's this Traveller RPG then? (and I know what an RPG
is, btw!).<br><br>Cheers!<br>Nick

I just got a message to my yahoo mail inviting me
to join. I guess it may have something to do with my
profile.<br>As far as Banks is concerned I have read everything
except the last book, I'm still waiting for the
paperback. The only other thing I know is that he has played
the Traveller RPG.<br><br>Steve

I've tried to read all the Culture books "in
order". Consider Philebas gives a good background to the
Culture without going into major detail. Really liked
Player of Games. Inversions was excellent, but wouldn't
make any sense without prior knowledge of the Culture
& Special Circumstances. Excession was good, but
not brilliant. Look To Windward is pretty tops so
far. There's a good short scene where two of the main
characters reel off loads of ship names, my favourite being
"I said, I've got a big stick" which is in a really
small typeface.

the copy of the message i got in my e-mail was
different to the copy that was posted to the
club...<br><br>Ao address your points, I was going by the category
that is indicated in the top rh corner of the window,
if we are also listed explicitly under the SF genre
then thats as good as we can get.<br><br>I think an
invite campaign is the way to go, there is some advice
on inviting on the clubs site. Maybe start with the
members of the IainBanks club (is there
one)...<br><br>Maybe start with Iain M Banks himself, apparentyl terry
pratchett was knonw to lurk on alt.fan.pratchett...

Last one was inversion I think. First I read was player of games as it was on
the shelf and seemed interesting. I havent attempted to read them in any order,
latterly just order of publishing...

Tim - what's the last IMB book you read? And have you tried to read the Culture
books "in order"?<br>Nick

>Um, nope! Probably requires the club to be
shut <br>&gt;down and resurrected in SF genre
(doh!).<br><br>but thats how i started it, it got assigned somehow
to this category. If I could just e-mail yahoo, I
looked for an e-mail like clubs-admin@... to see
if i could talk to them...<br><br>Maybe the abuse
e-mail address could help

Um, nope! Probably requires the club to be shut
down and resurrected in SF genre (doh!).<br><br>Once
I've finished LTWW I'm going to re-read CP & see if I
can understand the quote you mention (it's been a
good few years since I read CP & had forgotten that
bit!).

>Ostensibly a straight fiction book rather
than SF <br><br>OK<br><br>&gt;very much like the chaos
in Yugoslavia over the <br>&gt;last decade - except
that it feels like it is set <br>&gt;in
Scotland...<br><br>HaHa, typically banksian<br><br>&gt;I think Iain Banks
said that Against a Dark<br>&gt;background was his
darkest, most depressing book <br><br>yes, that what it
says on the cover, didnt think it was that bleak
myself<br><br>&gt;and wouldn't let his wife read it (although I
<br>&gt;think Use of Weapons is pretty damn dark in
<br>&gt;places). <br><br>much bleaker overall really
(AFAIR)<br><br>the consider philebas reference is mentioned at the
beginniong isnt it...? I dont know what its a quote from
though...<br><br>At the moment the club is listed under literary
authors/iainbanks. I've tried to see who I can e-mail to get it
changed. I'm guessing we're missing sf fans because it
isnt listed under sf. Any idea how I can get them to
change it?

Ostensibly a straight fiction book rather than SF
(hence being published without the "M"). Came out in the
UK about 18 months ago I think. It does have a sort
of SF/Fantasy tinge to it because it is set in an
un-named country, roughly around the present. There is a
civil war on, with streams of refugees and gangs of
armed bandits roaming about. It is very much like the
chaos in Yugoslavia over the last decade - except that
it feels like it is set in Scotland...<br><br>So,
anarchy, battles, war crimes, fear and huge dollops of
sexual deviance. Not a very happy ending though. I think
Iain Banks said that Against a Dark Background was his
darkest, most depressing book and wouldn't let his wife
read it (although I think Use of Weapons is pretty
damn dark in places). Then he wrote Song of Stone
which takes AADB bleakness to a factor of
ten...<br><br>Have you read any other non-SF books? Walking on Glass
needs to be your starting point because of the mixture
of SF and straight fiction (very bizarre - but a lot
of his works are, aren't they? - oh, swot up on your
Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy beforehand). Complicity is
probably the best thriller I've ever read (a jaw-dropping
page-turner) and the Crow Road is a piece of exceptional
literature. The Bridge is highly bizarre in places, because
it deals with a man's wandering imagination while he
lies in a coma.<br><br>I'm getting close to the end of
Look to Windward and there's a lot of references to
the Idiran war, which is the setting for Consider
Philebas - which reminds me - have you any idea what that
title is supposed to mean?

which one is that?

Oh, go on then, I'll join the club....<br><br>I
thought FE was pretty damn peculiar when I first started
reading it, particularly the stuff about the huge
structures that people lived in & on, but after a bit I got
used to it and yes, it is one of his best
books.<br><br>Did I find him thru SF or fiction? I first read
Complicity (stunning) and then the Crow Road (excellent) and
then, once I'd tracked down a copy of Consider Ph.. I
got started on the SF. Hummed & ahhed over
Inversions, but as you get into it, & if you've read lots of
Culture stuff previously, you definitely know what's
going on. But if you haven't (and at least one critic
whose review I read obviously hadn't) you'll be a tad
perplexed.<br><br>Read everything he's done so far (currently halfway
thru Look to WW) and love em all. Except possibly Song
of Stone which was just too
bleak.<br><br>Cheers<br><br>PhoeNicks

OK, to try and get something
started...<br><br>Views on Feersum Endjinn:<br><br>At first the phonetic
spelling I found very off putting, however I got used to
it and the overall experience was worthwhile. The
actual story I found to be one of Banks'
best.<br><br>Comments please.....

A discussion group for the science fiction novels of Iain M Banks.<br><br>None
of this Iain Banks stuff, sheesh anybody'd think it was the same
guy!<br><br>&lt;irony mode off&gt;<br><br>Tim

Welcome to the Yahoo! Message Board for IainMBanks