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hreg · Houston Renewable Energy Group

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  • Members: 749
  • Category: Environment
  • Founded: Jul 18, 1999
  • Language: English
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#6704 From: "ajsinits" <ajsinits@...>
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:14 am
Subject: LED Lights
ajsinits
Send Email Send Email
 
What is everybody"s opinion about LED lighting and any recommendation
where to buy it in Houston?

Thank you.

Raymond

#6705 From: "Bashir Syed" <bsyed@...>
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:31 pm
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: I guess I should ask........
drycellsc
Send Email Send Email
 
I heard the same program on NPR about French storing such waste based on laws which were enacted under complete secrecy so that people will not express their opposition against such action. Man is blindly following the "SCIENTISTS," many of whom have been proven wrong about Earth Warming, and many other phenomenon based on "Models" and neglecting many variables. Recently, the false prophets have invented a new technique called "Risk Analysis" completely based on Statistical laws. And we all know what Benjamin Disraeli said about Lies: "Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics."
Earth quakes are a reality, and no matter what assumtions the proponents of disposal of radioactive waste might say, this waste will creep through the "CLAY" which is considered as strog as porcelain (which it is not). It will take relatively longer time, but sure enough it will get through tiny pores, eventually polluting the water table. Once that happens and people or animals drink water contaminated with highly radioactice waste by-products (some of these have a half-life of the order of billions of years) the occurrence of cancer and tumors will increase and many innocent people will die. But then those who decided burying the waste would have been forgotten. But remember, there is an ultimate Judgement by God that these people will face for deceiving their own people just because of Greed. Just see the pictures of victims and fetuses affected by Depleted Uranium and you can figure out the damage. After the Manhattan Project, the scientists at Los Alamos Labs injected Plutoium in terminal patients without their consent or letting their dear ones know about their actions. During Clinton's first term, his Secertary of Energy, Hazel O'Leary declassified lots of documents from that era (including those from Los Alamos Labs) and a book "Plutonium Files" was published to publicize this crime against humanity which ware not less than what the Nazis did during the World Wars. Those of us who have the training in this subject know quite well the hazards involved in handling such materials.
 
Bashir A. Syed
Retired aerospace Physicist
Former Member: Radiation Safety Committee, NASA/JSC
----- Original Message -----
To: hreg
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 9:03 PM
Subject: [hreg] Fwd: Re: I guess I should ask........

I know that the subject of radioactivity has been covered before on this forum.  Does anyone want to respond to this question though?

Note: forwarded message attached.


Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.


#6706 From: Susan Modikoane <suemodikoane@...>
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:31 pm
Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Beijing car ban improves air quality - Yahoo! News
suemodikoane
Send Email Send Email
 
Susan Modikoane (suemodikoane@...) has sent you a news article.
(Email address has not been verified.)
------------------------------------------------------------
Personal message:



Beijing car ban improves air quality - Yahoo! News

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070821/ap_on_re_as/oly_bejing_car_ban

============================================================
Yahoo! News
http://news.yahoo.com/

#6707 From: T L J <bassliners@...>
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:33 pm
Subject: Re: LED Lights
bassliners
Send Email Send Email
 
Raymond -

I'm a huge fan of LED lights, but as far as a local store, very unlikely to find them.

Good resource on the web however, try:

http://www.besthomeledlighting.com/

I haven't ordered from them yet, but the products look easy to install (most utilize standard screw-in).  The track lights look especially promising - they use Cree's newest bright LEDs, so instead of a nested array, is simply a single ultrabright LED.

Let me know if you have any luck with a local supplier.



----- Original Message ----
From: ajsinits <ajsinits@...>
To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 10:14:49 PM
Subject: [hreg] LED Lights

What is everybody"s opinion about LED lighting and any recommendation
where to buy it in Houston?

Thank you.

Raymond




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Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

#6708 From: "Bashir Syed" <bsyed@...>
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:40 pm
Subject: Re: LED Lights
drycellsc
Send Email Send Email
 
Check with www.ccrane.com, a company that advertises in Home Power Magazine.
 
Bashir A. Syed
Alt-EnergyTech,Inc
Houston, TX
----- Original Message -----
From: T L J
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: [hreg] LED Lights

Raymond -

I'm a huge fan of LED lights, but as far as a local store, very unlikely to find them.

Good resource on the web however, try:

http://www.besthomeledlighting.com/

I haven't ordered from them yet, but the products look easy to install (most utilize standard screw-in).  The track lights look especially promising - they use Cree's newest bright LEDs, so instead of a nested array, is simply a single ultrabright LED.

Let me know if you have any luck with a local supplier.



----- Original Message ----
From: ajsinits <ajsinits@yahoo.com>
To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 10:14:49 PM
Subject: [hreg] LED Lights

What is everybody"s opinion about LED lighting and any recommendation
where to buy it in Houston?

Thank you.

Raymond




Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.


#6709 From: Paul Archer <tigger@...>
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:40 pm
Subject: Re: LED Lights
geek65535
Send Email Send Email
 
There's a local company, Stagelight (www.stagelight.com, 713-942-0555) that
sells some architectural LED lights. Their focus, as their name implies, is
on stage (theatrical) lighting, but they'll work with you.

Paul

Disclaimer: my wife works for the company.


8:33am, T L J wrote:

> Raymond -
>
> I'm a huge fan of LED lights, but as far as a local store, very unlikely to
find them.
>
> Good resource on the web however, try:
>
> http://www.besthomeledlighting.com/
>
> I haven't ordered from them yet, but the products look easy to install (most
utilize standard screw-in).  The track lights look especially promising - they
use Cree's newest bright LEDs, so instead of a nested array, is simply a single
ultrabright LED.
>
> Let me know if you have any luck with a local supplier.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: ajsinits <ajsinits@...>
> To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 10:14:49 PM
> Subject: [hreg] LED Lights
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>            What is everybody"s opinion about LED lighting and any
recommendation
>
> where to buy it in Houston?
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> Raymond
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <!--
>
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>
>
>     
________________________________________________________________________________\
____
> Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit
the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
> http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/



-----------------
        WWJD?
       JWRTFM
-----------------


-----11019 days until retirement!-----

#6710 From: evelyn sardina <evelynsardina@...>
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:36 pm
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: I guess I should ask........
evelynsardina
Send Email Send Email
 
What about the suggestion about sending it up to space?

Bashir Syed <bsyed@...> wrote:
I heard the same program on NPR about French storing such waste based on laws which were enacted under complete secrecy so that people will not express their opposition against such action. Man is blindly following the "SCIENTISTS," many of whom have been proven wrong about Earth Warming, and many other phenomenon based on "Models" and neglecting many variables. Recently, the false prophets have invented a new technique called "Risk Analysis" completely based on Statistical laws. And we all know what Benjamin Disraeli said about Lies: "Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics."
Earth quakes are a reality, and no matter what assumtions the proponents of disposal of radioactive waste might say, this waste will creep through the "CLAY" which is considered as strog as porcelain (which it is not). It will take relatively longer time, but sure enough it will get through tiny pores, eventually polluting the water table. Once that happens and people or animals drink water contaminated with highly radioactice waste by-products (some of these have a half-life of the order of billions of years) the occurrence of cancer and tumors will increase and many innocent people will die. But then those who decided burying the waste would have been forgotten. But remember, there is an ultimate Judgement by God that these people will face for deceiving their own people just because of Greed. Just see the pictures of victims and fetuses affected by Depleted Uranium and you can figure out the damage. After the Manhattan Project, the scientists at Los Alamos Labs injected Plutoium in terminal patients without their consent or letting their dear ones know about their actions. During Clinton's first term, his Secertary of Energy, Hazel O'Leary declassified lots of documents from that era (including those from Los Alamos Labs) and a book "Plutonium Files" was published to publicize this crime against humanity which ware not less than what the Nazis did during the World Wars. Those of us who have the training in this subject know quite well the hazards involved in handling such materials.
 
Bashir A. Syed
Retired aerospace Physicist
Former Member: Radiation Safety Committee, NASA/JSC
----- Original Message -----
To: hreg
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 9:03 PM
Subject: [hreg] Fwd: Re: I guess I should ask........

I know that the subject of radioactivity has been covered before on this forum.  Does anyone want to respond to this question though?

Note: forwarded message attached.

Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.


Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.

#6711 From: "ajsinits" <ajsinits@...>
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:53 pm
Subject: Re: LED Lights
ajsinits
Send Email Send Email
 
--- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, Paul Archer <tigger@...> wrote:
>
> There's a local company, Stagelight (www.stagelight.com,
713-942-0555) that
> sells some architectural LED lights. Their focus, as their name
implies, is
> on stage (theatrical) lighting, but they'll work with you.
>
> Paul
>
> Disclaimer: my wife works for the company.
>
>
> 8:33am, T L J wrote:
>
> > Raymond -
> >
> > I'm a huge fan of LED lights, but as far as a local store, very
unlikely to find them.
> >
> > Good resource on the web however, try:
> >
> > http://www.besthomeledlighting.com/
> >
> > I haven't ordered from them yet, but the products look easy to
install (most utilize standard screw-in).  The track lights look
especially promising - they use Cree's newest bright LEDs, so instead
of a nested array, is simply a single ultrabright LED.
> >
> > Let me know if you have any luck with a local supplier.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: ajsinits <ajsinits@...>
> > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 10:14:49 PM
> > Subject: [hreg] LED Lights
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >            What is everybody"s opinion about LED lighting and any
recommendation
> >
> > where to buy it in Houston?
> >
> >
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> >
> >
> > Raymond
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > <!--
> >
> > #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}
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clean, sans-serif;}
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ght:.5em;}
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> > font-weight:bold;}
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> > text-decoration:none;}
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> >
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-size:100%;line-height:122%\
;}
> > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
> > text-decoration:none;}
> > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
> > text-decoration:underline;}
> > #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
> > margin:0;}
> > o {font-size:0;}
> > .MsoNormal {
> > margin:0 0 0 0;}
> > #ygrp-text tt{
> > font-size:120%;}
> > blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;}
> > .replbq {margin:4;}
> > -->
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
________________________________________________________________________________\
____
> > Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative
vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
> > http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
>
>
>
> -----------------
>        WWJD?
>       JWRTFM
> -----------------
>
>
> -----11019 days until retirement!-----
>
Thank you for the response. Will update you if I am able to find a
local dealer.

Raymond

#6712 From: "Ariel Thomann" <ajthomann@...>
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:33 pm
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: I guess I should ask........
ajthomann@...
Send Email Send Email
 
-1. I agree with Bashir, except I'd delete the supernatural element.

  -2. Re: space.  I've wondered about it for some time.  Humanity has some
reliable big rockets.  Could a payload of nuclear waste be sent up with just
enough ooomph to escape Earth gravity?  I guess the sun's gravity would ensure
delivery to the big furnace, where it wouldn't even make a ripple.  Perhaps
with a pair of gravity assist "slingshots" as it swings by Venus and Mercury.
I don't know how many such shots it would take, but it should be worth
considering.

Ariel
- We are all Human beings here together.  We have to help one another, since
otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
- All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy.  Think ahead 7
generations.
------------------------------------

> What about the suggestion about sending it up to space?
>
> Bashir Syed <bsyed@...> wrote:            I heard the same
> program on NPR about French storing such waste based on laws which were
> enacted under complete secrecy so that people will not express their
> opposition against such action. Man is blindly following the "SCIENTISTS,"
> many of whom have been proven wrong about Earth Warming, and many other
> phenomenon based on "Models" and neglecting many variables. Recently, the
> false prophets have invented a new technique called "Risk Analysis" completely
> based on Statistical laws. And we all know what Benjamin Disraeli said about
> Lies: "Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics."
>   Earth quakes are a reality, and no matter what assumtions the proponents of
> disposal of radioactive waste might say, this waste will creep through the
> "CLAY" which is considered as strog as porcelain (which it is not). It will
> take relatively longer time, but sure enough it will get through tiny pores,
> eventually polluting the water table. Once that happens and people or
> animals drink water contaminated with highly radioactice waste by-products
> (some of these have a half-life of the order of billions of years) the
> occurrence of cancer and tumors will increase and many innocent people will
> die. But then those who decided burying the waste would have been forgotten.
> But remember, there is an ultimate Judgement by God that these people will
> face for deceiving their own people just because of Greed. Just see the
> pictures of victims and fetuses affected by Depleted Uranium and you can
> figure out the damage. After the Manhattan Project, the scientists at Los
> Alamos Labs
>  injected Plutoium in terminal patients without their consent or letting their
> dear ones know about their actions. During Clinton's first term, his
> Secertary of Energy, Hazel O'Leary declassified lots of documents from that
> era (including those from Los Alamos Labs) and a book "Plutonium Files" was
> published to publicize this crime against humanity which ware not less than
> what the Nazis did during the World Wars. Those of us who have the training
> in this subject know quite well the hazards involved in handling such
> materials.
>
>   Bashir A. Syed
>   Retired aerospace Physicist
>   Former Member: Radiation Safety Committee, NASA/JSC
>     ----- Original Message -----
>   From: evelyn sardina
>   To: hreg
>   Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 9:03 PM
>   Subject: [hreg] Fwd: Re: I guess I should ask........
>
>
>     I know that the subject of radioactivity has been covered before on this
> forum.  Does anyone want to respond to this question though?
>

#6713 From: "Bashir Syed" <bsyed@...>
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:07 am
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: I guess I should ask........
drycellsc
Send Email Send Email
 
This aspect has been considered and due to more risks of having a mishap on the launch pad or close to earth, this method of disposing off any radio active material was abondoned. A few years ago a Satellite came very close to earth and crashed in Canada, spilling radioactive material used in Thermo-Nuclear power generator. After that such power sources were replaced by Photovoltaic PV Solar Cells (and Fuell Cells in International Space Station), much safer than earlier Thermo-Nuclear powerr sources.  
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 6:33 PM
Subject: Re: [hreg] Fwd: Re: I guess I should ask........

-1. I agree with Bashir, except I'd delete the supernatural element.

-2. Re: space. I've wondered about it for some time. Humanity has some
reliable big rockets. Could a payload of nuclear waste be sent up with just
enough ooomph to escape Earth gravity? I guess the sun's gravity would ensure
delivery to the big furnace, where it wouldn't even make a ripple. Perhaps
with a pair of gravity assist "slingshots" as it swings by Venus and Mercury.
I don't know how many such shots it would take, but it should be worth
considering.

Ariel
- We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since
otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
- All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7
generations.
------------------------------------

> What about the suggestion about sending it up to space?
>
> Bashir Syed <bsyed@worldnet.att.net> wrote: I heard the same
> program on NPR about French storing such waste based on laws which were
> enacted under complete secrecy so that people will not express their
> opposition against such action. Man is blindly following the "SCIENTISTS,"
> many of whom have been proven wrong about Earth Warming, and many other
> phenomenon based on "Models" and neglecting many variables. Recently, the
> false prophets have invented a new technique called "Risk Analysis" completely
> based on Statistical laws. And we all know what Benjamin Disraeli said about
> Lies: "Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics."
> Earth quakes are a reality, and no matter what assumtions the proponents of
> disposal of radioactive waste might say, this waste will creep through the
> "CLAY" which is considered as strog as porcelain (which it is not). It will
> take relatively longer time, but sure enough it will get through tiny pores,
> eventually polluting the water table. Once that happens and people or
> animals drink water contaminated with highly radioactice waste by-products
> (some of these have a half-life of the order of billions of years) the
> occurrence of cancer and tumors will increase and many innocent people will
> die. But then those who decided burying the waste would have been forgotten.
> But remember, there is an ultimate Judgement by God that these people will
> face for deceiving their own people just because of Greed. Just see the
> pictures of victims and fetuses affected by Depleted Uranium and you can
> figure out the damage. After the Manhattan Project, the scientists at Los
> Alamos Labs
> injected Plutoium in terminal patients without their consent or letting their
> dear ones know about their actions. During Clinton's first term, his
> Secertary of Energy, Hazel O'Leary declassified lots of documents from that
> era (including those from Los Alamos Labs) and a book "Plutonium Files" was
> published to publicize this crime against humanity which ware not less than
> what the Nazis did during the World Wars. Those of us who have the training
> in this subject know quite well the hazards involved in handling such
> materials.
>
> Bashir A. Syed
> Retired aerospace Physicist
> Former Member: Radiation Safety Committee, NASA/JSC
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: evelyn sardina
> To: hreg
> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 9:03 PM
> Subject: [hreg] Fwd: Re: I guess I should ask........
>
>
> I know that the subject of radioactivity has been covered before on this
> forum. Does anyone want to respond to this question though?
>


#6714 From: "Kevin Conlin" <kconlin@...>
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:31 am
Subject: RE: Fwd: Re: I guess I should ask........
kconlin@...
Send Email Send Email
 

I’d have to say the whole concept is very impractical and irresponsible.  It’s bad enough we’ve spewed our poisons into the atmosphere and seas without regard, surely we don’t have to do the same with space!  I’m also quite sure the economics are horrible, I heard one space expert say it takes the figurative equivalent of several pounds of gold to launch one pound of payload into orbit.

 

 

________________________

Kevin Conlin

Solarcraft, Inc.

4007 C Greenbriar

Stafford, TX 77477-4536

Local (281) 340-1224

Toll Free (877) 340-1224

Fax 281 340 1230

Cell 281 960 8979

kconlin@...

www.solarcraft.net

 

Please make a note of our new contact information above.

 


From: Bashir Syed [mailto:bsyed@...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 7:07 PM
To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [hreg] Fwd: Re: I guess I should ask........

 

This aspect has been considered and due to more risks of having a mishap on the launch pad or close to earth, this method of disposing off any radio active material was abondoned. A few years ago a Satellite came very close to earth and crashed in Canada, spilling radioactive material used in Thermo-Nuclear power generator. After that such power sources were replaced by Photovoltaic PV Solar Cells (and Fuell Cells in International Space Station), much safer than earlier Thermo-Nuclear powerr sources.  

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 6:33 PM

Subject: Re: [hreg] Fwd: Re: I guess I should ask........

 

-1. I agree with Bashir, except I'd delete the supernatural element.

-2. Re: space. I've wondered about it for some time. Humanity has some
reliable big rockets. Could a payload of nuclear waste be sent up with just
enough ooomph to escape Earth gravity? I guess the sun's gravity would ensure
delivery to the big furnace, where it wouldn't even make a ripple. Perhaps
with a pair of gravity assist "slingshots" as it swings by Venus and Mercury.
I don't know how many such shots it would take, but it should be worth
considering.

Ariel
- We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since
otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
- All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7
generations.
------------------------------------

> What about the suggestion about sending it up to space?
>
> Bashir Syed <bsyed@worldnet.att.net> wrote: I heard the same
> program on NPR about French storing such waste based on laws which were
> enacted under complete secrecy so that people will not express their
> opposition against such action. Man is blindly following the "SCIENTISTS,"
> many of whom have been proven wrong about Earth Warming, and many other
> phenomenon based on "Models" and neglecting many variables. Recently, the
> false prophets have invented a new technique called "Risk Analysis" completely
> based on Statistical laws. And we all know what Benjamin Disraeli said about
> Lies: "Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics."
> Earth quakes are a reality, and no matter what assumtions the proponents of
> disposal of radioactive waste might say, this waste will creep through the
> "CLAY" which is considered as strog as porcelain (which it is not). It will
> take relatively longer time, but sure enough it will get through tiny pores,
> eventually polluting the water table. Once that happens and people or
> animals drink water contaminated with highly radioactice waste by-products
> (some of these have a half-life of the order of billions of years) the
> occurrence of cancer and tumors will increase and many innocent people will
> die. But then those who decided burying the waste would have been forgotten.
> But remember, there is an ultimate Judgement by God that these people will
> face for deceiving their own people just because of Greed. Just see the
> pictures of victims and fetuses affected by Depleted Uranium and you can
> figure out the damage. After the Manhattan Project, the scientists at Los
> Alamos Labs
> injected Plutoium in terminal patients without their consent or letting their
> dear ones know about their actions. During Clinton's first term, his
> Secertary of Energy, Hazel O'Leary declassified lots of documents from that
> era (including those from Los Alamos Labs) and a book "Plutonium Files" was
> published to publicize this crime against humanity which ware not less than
> what the Nazis did during the World Wars. Those of us who have the training
> in this subject know quite well the hazards involved in handling such
> materials.
>
> Bashir A. Syed
> Retired aerospace Physicist
> Former Member: Radiation Safety Committee, NASA/JSC
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: evelyn sardina
> To: hreg
> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 9:03 PM
> Subject: [hreg] Fwd: Re: I guess I should ask........
>
>
> I know that the subject of radioactivity has been covered before on this
> forum. Does anyone want to respond to this question though?
>


#6715 From: "Ron Spross" <ronspross@...>
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:26 am
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: I guess I should ask........
ronspross
Send Email Send Email
 
It turns out, I seem to recall, that to send a rocket into the sun is more expensive energetically than sending into interstellar space (anything starting on the earth is already going around the sun at a considerable speed and to go into the sun it must slow down.  The work required to slow it down sufficiently is greater than the work required to achieve solar system escape velocity).  I don't know if it is possible to use, say, a Venus flyby to reduce the angular momentum enough to plunge the rocket into the sun.

Furthermore, a number of years ago there was a great controversy about sending up a satellite payload that had plutonium as an energy source in its power supply.  The satellite was launched, but it was in the face of a great hue and cry.  Therefore, even if it turned out to be economical, the controversy and real substantial risk (rockets still occasionally fail during launch) of sending the many existing tons of radioactive waste into either space or the sun probably would be too great.

Some one mentioned earlier a "nuclear power bandwagon".  There may be such a bandwagon, but there also seems to be a bandwagon that is theologically opposed to doing anything with radioactive waste -- which is sitting in surface storage currently (it is safe from the point of view of radiation containment, but vulnerable to terrorism).  Even if by some miracle of public enlightenment we were to succeed in getting a Congress and Administration dominated by Sierra Club members, the radioactive waste material currently in storage in pools above ground would not disappear -- it would still be a problem to be solved. 

I believe the following approach to disposal is the safest and most reasonable:   The radioactive material can be placed in ceramic (glass) ingots, which should be stable for tens of millenia, at least.  Then these ingots can be deposited in a number of places where they would be "safe".  One possibility is the bottom of a deep sea trench where there is a geologic subduction zone -- I believe the Marianas Trench is an example -- the material would be beneath 5 miles of water, and over the millenia the ingots would be reabsorbed into the mantel of the earth.  Another safe location, although this would seem counter intuitive, would be on the bottom of the ocean floor, on the "downstream" side of something like the mid-Atlantic ridge.  These regions are among the most geologically stable on earth, expanding slowly away from the ridge where new continental material is being formed.  Material from the surface is constantly being layered down on the sea floor, covering what is there now with sediments.  The results of this slow but stable sedimentary process, which lasts over 100s of millions of years,  are evident in the uniform strata that are exposed almost anywhere a road or river cuts through a hill side, or -- very spectacularly -- in places like the Grand Canyon.

ronspross


On 8/21/07, Ariel Thomann <ajthomann@...> wrote:

-1. I agree with Bashir, except I'd delete the supernatural element.

-2. Re: space. I've wondered about it for some time. Humanity has some
reliable big rockets. Could a payload of nuclear waste be sent up with just
enough ooomph to escape Earth gravity? I guess the sun's gravity would ensure
delivery to the big furnace, where it wouldn't even make a ripple. Perhaps
with a pair of gravity assist "slingshots" as it swings by Venus and Mercury.
I don't know how many such shots it would take, but it should be worth
considering.

Ariel
- We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since
otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
- All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7
generations.
------------------------------------



> What about the suggestion about sending it up to space?
>
> Bashir Syed <bsyed@...> wrote: I heard the same
> program on NPR about French storing such waste based on laws which were
> enacted under complete secrecy so that people will not express their
> opposition against such action. Man is blindly following the "SCIENTISTS,"
> many of whom have been proven wrong about Earth Warming, and many other
> phenomenon based on "Models" and neglecting many variables. Recently, the
> false prophets have invented a new technique called "Risk Analysis" completely
> based on Statistical laws. And we all know what Benjamin Disraeli said about
> Lies: "Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics."
> Earth quakes are a reality, and no matter what assumtions the proponents of
> disposal of radioactive waste might say, this waste will creep through the
> "CLAY" which is considered as strog as porcelain (which it is not). It will
> take relatively longer time, but sure enough it will get through tiny pores,
> eventually polluting the water table. Once that happens and people or
> animals drink water contaminated with highly radioactice waste by-products
> (some of these have a half-life of the order of billions of years) the
> occurrence of cancer and tumors will increase and many innocent people will
> die. But then those who decided burying the waste would have been forgotten.
> But remember, there is an ultimate Judgement by God that these people will
> face for deceiving their own people just because of Greed. Just see the
> pictures of victims and fetuses affected by Depleted Uranium and you can
> figure out the damage. After the Manhattan Project, the scientists at Los
> Alamos Labs
> injected Plutoium in terminal patients without their consent or letting their
> dear ones know about their actions. During Clinton's first term, his
> Secertary of Energy, Hazel O'Leary declassified lots of documents from that
> era (including those from Los Alamos Labs) and a book "Plutonium Files" was
> published to publicize this crime against humanity which ware not less than
> what the Nazis did during the World Wars. Those of us who have the training
> in this subject know quite well the hazards involved in handling such
> materials.
>
> Bashir A. Syed
> Retired aerospace Physicist
> Former Member: Radiation Safety Committee, NASA/JSC
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: evelyn sardina
> To: hreg
> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 9:03 PM
> Subject: [hreg] Fwd: Re: I guess I should ask........
>
>
> I know that the subject of radioactivity has been covered before on this
> forum. Does anyone want to respond to this question though?
>



#6716 From: "Ariel Thomann" <ajthomann@...>
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:47 am
Subject: RE: Fwd: Re: I guess I should ask........
ajthomann@...
Send Email Send Email
 
Well, if (yes, admittedly IF) it works, "space" would not be contaminated by a
payload traveling on its way to be incinerated by the sun.

Next, is it worth a few  pounds of gold to eliminate from the planet something
we don't want around because of how bad it is?  What was the cost of cleaning up
the Brio site?

Ariel
- We are all Human beings here together.  We have to help one another, since
otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
- All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy.  Think ahead 7
generations.
------------------------------------

> I'd have to say the whole concept is very impractical and irresponsible. It's
> bad enough we've spewed our poisons into the atmosphere and seas without
> regard, surely we don't have to do the same with space!  I'm also quite sure
> the economics are horrible, I heard one space expert say it takes the
> figurative equivalent of several pounds of gold to launch one pound of payload
> into orbit.
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________
>
> Kevin Conlin
>
> Solarcraft, Inc.
>
> 4007 C Greenbriar
>
> Stafford, TX 77477-4536
>
> Local (281) 340-1224
>
> Toll Free (877) 340-1224
>
> Fax 281 340 1230
>
> Cell 281 960 8979
>
> kconlin@...
>
> www.solarcraft.net <http://www.solarcraft.net/>
>
>
>
> Please make a note of our new contact information above.
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> From: Bashir Syed [mailto:bsyed@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 7:07 PM
> To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [hreg] Fwd: Re: I guess I should ask........
>
>
>
> This aspect has been considered and due to more risks of having a mishap on
> the launch pad or close to earth, this method of disposing off any radio
> active material was abondoned. A few years ago a Satellite came very close to
> earth and crashed in Canada, spilling radioactive material used in
> Thermo-Nuclear power generator. After that such power sources were replaced by
> Photovoltaic PV Solar Cells (and Fuell Cells in International Space Station),
> much safer than earlier Thermo-Nuclear powerr sources.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Ariel Thomann <mailto:ajthomann@...>
>
> To: hreg@yahoogroups. <mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com> com
>
> Cc: evelynsardina@ <mailto:evelynsardina@...> yahoo.com
>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 6:33 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [hreg] Fwd: Re: I guess I should ask........
>
>
>
> -1. I agree with Bashir, except I'd delete the supernatural element.
>
> -2. Re: space. I've wondered about it for some time. Humanity has some
> reliable big rockets. Could a payload of nuclear waste be sent up with just
> enough ooomph to escape Earth gravity? I guess the sun's gravity would ensure
> delivery to the big furnace, where it wouldn't even make a ripple. Perhaps
> with a pair of gravity assist "slingshots" as it swings by Venus and Mercury.
> I don't know how many such shots it would take, but it should be worth
> considering.
>
> Ariel
> - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since
> otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
> - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7
> generations.
> ------------------------------------
>
>> What about the suggestion about sending it up to space?
>>
>> Bashir Syed <bsyed@worldnet. <mailto:bsyed%40worldnet.att.net> att.net>
> wrote: I heard the same
>> program on NPR about French storing such waste based on laws which were
>> enacted under complete secrecy so that people will not express their
>> opposition against such action. Man is blindly following the "SCIENTISTS,"
>> many of whom have been proven wrong about Earth Warming, and many other
>> phenomenon based on "Models" and neglecting many variables. Recently, the
>> false prophets have invented a new technique called "Risk Analysis"
> completely
>> based on Statistical laws. And we all know what Benjamin Disraeli said
> about
>> Lies: "Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics."
>> Earth quakes are a reality, and no matter what assumtions the proponents
> of
>> disposal of radioactive waste might say, this waste will creep through the
>> "CLAY" which is considered as strog as porcelain (which it is not). It
> will
>> take relatively longer time, but sure enough it will get through tiny
> pores,
>> eventually polluting the water table. Once that happens and people or
>> animals drink water contaminated with highly radioactice waste by-products
>> (some of these have a half-life of the order of billions of years) the
>> occurrence of cancer and tumors will increase and many innocent people
> will
>> die. But then those who decided burying the waste would have been
> forgotten.
>> But remember, there is an ultimate Judgement by God that these people will
>> face for deceiving their own people just because of Greed. Just see the
>> pictures of victims and fetuses affected by Depleted Uranium and you can
>> figure out the damage. After the Manhattan Project, the scientists at Los
>> Alamos Labs
>> injected Plutoium in terminal patients without their consent or letting
> their
>> dear ones know about their actions. During Clinton's first term, his
>> Secertary of Energy, Hazel O'Leary declassified lots of documents from
> that
>> era (including those from Los Alamos Labs) and a book "Plutonium Files"
> was
>> published to publicize this crime against humanity which ware not less
> than
>> what the Nazis did during the World Wars. Those of us who have the
> training
>> in this subject know quite well the hazards involved in handling such
>> materials.
>>
>> Bashir A. Syed
>> Retired aerospace Physicist
>> Former Member: Radiation Safety Committee, NASA/JSC
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: evelyn sardina
>> To: hreg
>> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 9:03 PM
>> Subject: [hreg] Fwd: Re: I guess I should ask........
>>
>>
>> I know that the subject of radioactivity has been covered before on this
>> forum. Does anyone want to respond to this question though?
>>
>
>

#6717 From: "Ariel Thomann" <ajthomann@...>
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:42 am
Subject: Re: Yahoo! News Story - Beijing car ban improves air quality - Yahoo! News
ajthomann@...
Send Email Send Email
 
Step in the right direction, I suppose, but they still a long way to go.  Check
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2007-08/22/content_6035672.htm

Ariel
- We are all Human beings here together.  We have to help one another, since
otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
- All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy.  Think ahead 7
generations.
------------------------------------

>
> Susan Modikoane (suemodikoane@...) has sent you a news article.  (Email
> address has not been verified.)
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Personal message:
>
>
>
> Beijing car ban improves air quality - Yahoo! News
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070821/ap_on_re_as/oly_bejing_car_ban
>
> ============================================================
> Yahoo! News
> http://news.yahoo.com/

#6718 From: Paul Archer <tigger@...>
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:25 am
Subject: pigs--er, plutonium--in space
geek65535
Send Email Send Email
 
I was thinking about this recent discussion of sending radioactive waste
into out space. First, there are some inherent dangers in rocket propulsion,
and a Challenger-magnitude accident would be very, very bad. But the cost of
sending a payload into space (several pounds of gold worth for each pound of
payload, I think was mentioned) is predicated on humans taking the payload
into space--and humans coming back. A simple (only a relative term) ICBM
type rocket is much, much cheaper. You don't have to worry about G forces,
livable environment, radiation (besides the stuff you're sending), or
getting anyone back to earth.

Paul



------------The UNIX Guru's View of Sex-----------
# unzip ; strip ; touch ; finger ; mount ; fsck ;\
> more ; yes ; umount ; sleep
--------------------------------------------------

-----11019 days until retirement!-----

#6719 From: evelyn sardina <evelynsardina@...>
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:42 am
Subject: RE: Fwd: Re: I guess I should ask........
evelynsardina
Send Email Send Email
 
It seems to me that the solar towers are the only thing massive enough to supply our energy needs.  Weather they " be " the tower ( main source) or a tower used to piggy back fossils like the ones Otto describes.  I don't understand why this has not taken off any faster. I saw they have plans for as soon as 2010 but not here in the U.S.  Does anyone know what is going on?  Why don't we built them right here?

Kevin Conlin <kconlin@...> wrote:
I’d have to say the whole concept is very impractical and irresponsible.  It’s bad enough we’ve spewed our poisons into the atmosphere and seas without regard, surely we don’t have to do the same with space!  I’m also quite sure the economics are horrible, I heard one space expert say it takes the figurative equivalent of several pounds of gold to launch one pound of payload into orbit.
________________________
Kevin Conlin
Solarcraft, Inc.
4007 C Greenbriar
Stafford, TX 77477-4536
Local (281) 340-1224
Toll Free (877) 340-1224
Fax 281 340 1230
Cell 281 960 8979
Please make a note of our new contact information above.

From: Bashir Syed [mailto:bsyed@worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 7:07 PM
To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [hreg] Fwd: Re: I guess I should ask........
This aspect has been considered and due to more risks of having a mishap on the launch pad or close to earth, this method of disposing off any radio active material was abondoned. A few years ago a Satellite came very close to earth and crashed in Canada, spilling radioactive material used in Thermo-Nuclear power generator. After that such power sources were replaced by Photovoltaic PV Solar Cells (and Fuell Cells in International Space Station), much safer than earlier Thermo-Nuclear powerr sources.  
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 6:33 PM
Subject: Re: [hreg] Fwd: Re: I guess I should ask........
-1. I agree with Bashir, except I'd delete the supernatural element.

-2. Re: space. I've wondered about it for some time. Humanity has some
reliable big rockets. Could a payload of nuclear waste be sent up with just
enough ooomph to escape Earth gravity? I guess the sun's gravity would ensure
delivery to the big furnace, where it wouldn't even make a ripple. Perhaps
with a pair of gravity assist "slingshots" as it swings by Venus and Mercury.
I don't know how many such shots it would take, but it should be worth
considering.

Ariel
- We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since
otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
- All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7
generations.
------------------------------------

> What about the suggestion about sending it up to space?
>
> Bashir Syed <bsyed@worldnet.att.net> wrote: I heard the same
> program on NPR about French storing such waste based on laws which were
> enacted under complete secrecy so that people will not express their
> opposition against such action. Man is blindly following the "SCIENTISTS,"
> many of whom have been proven wrong about Earth Warming, and many other
> phenomenon based on "Models" and neglecting many variables. Recently, the
> false prophets have invented a new technique called "Risk Analysis" completely
> based on Statistical laws. And we all know what Benjamin Disraeli said about
> Lies: "Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics."
> Earth quakes are a reality, and no matter what assumtions the proponents of
> disposal of radioactive waste might say, this waste will creep through the
> "CLAY" which is considered as strog as porcelain (which it is not). It will
> take relatively longer time, but sure enough it will get through tiny pores,
> eventually polluting the water table. Once that happens and people or
> animals drink water contaminated with highly radioactice waste by-products
> (some of these have a half-life of the order of billions of years) the
> occurrence of cancer and tumors will increase and many innocent people will
> die. But then those who decided burying the waste would have been forgotten.
> But remember, there is an ultimate Judgement by God that these people will
> face for deceiving their own people just because of Greed. Just see the
> pictures of victims and fetuses affected by Depleted Uranium and you can
> figure out the damage. After the Manhattan Project, the scientists at Los
> Alamos Labs
> injected Plutoium in terminal patients without their consent or letting their
> dear ones know about their actions. During Clinton's first term, his
> Secertary of Energy, Hazel O'Leary declassified lots of documents from that
> era (including those from Los Alamos Labs) and a book "Plutonium Files" was
> published to publicize this crime against humanity which ware not less than
> what the Nazis did during the World Wars. Those of us who have the training
> in this subject know quite well the hazards involved in handling such
> materials.
>
> Bashir A. Syed
> Retired aerospace Physicist
> Former Member: Radiation Safety Committee, NASA/JSC
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: evelyn sardina
> To: hreg
> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 9:03 PM
> Subject: [hreg] Fwd: Re: I guess I should ask........
>
>
> I know that the subject of radioactivity has been covered before on this
> forum. Does anyone want to respond to this question though?
>


Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.

#6720 From: "Steven Deterling" <rocketman1@...>
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:53 am
Subject: Re: RE: Fwd: Re: I guess I should ask........
rocketman1@...
Send Email Send Email
 
According to the Department of Energy, the US has about 55,000 metric tons of
radioactive waste.
(http://www.ocrwm.doe.gov/ym_repository/about_project/waste_explained/howmuch.sh\
tml)

According to several sources, it costs about $5,000 - $10,000 to send a kilogram
into orbit. And that's in orbit close to the earth. To get away from the earth,
either into space or to the sun, would cost more. But let's just say that into
orbit is good enough for now, and let's go with the lower estimate, $5,000/kg.

Doing the math, that gives you about $550,000,000,000, or $550 billion to put
all the waste into space.

Let's use the Ariane 5 launch vehicle, as it can launch around 10,000 kg   at
one time. To send 55,000 metric tons into orbit, we'd only need 5,500 launches
of the Ariane 5.

The Ariane 5 has a success rate of around 86%. Out of 5,500 launches, that means
about 825 would have some sort of failure. Assume that half of those happen in
the atmosphere, so that means you get a little over 400 vehicles putting some
amount of radioactive waste in the atmosphere.

US launch vehicles have been generally more successful at launching, around a
91% to 95% success rate. So let's go with a 95% success rate. Out of 5,500
launches, that means that only about 275 launches fail. (not to fault the Ariane
5 here, it hasn't had that many launches)

Again, if we assume half of those fail in the atmosphere, then you only have to
contend with about 137 incidents of radioactive waste in the atmosphere.

The Delta 2 spacecraft has a launch rate of around 12 per year. This is probably
a good launch rate, but let's double that, so we can get 24 launches every year.
At that rate, it will take about 229 years to launch all the current waste.

Of course, we are continuing to generate more waste all the time. The DOE
predicts that the US will have about 119,000 metric tons by the year 2035.

Yucca mountain is slated to hold around 70,000 metric tons.

Steve





http://toolbar.Care2.com  Make your computer carbon-neutral (free).

http://www.Care2.com  Green Living, Human Rights and more - 7 million members!

#6721 From: Nan Hildreth <nanhildreth@...>
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:06 pm
Subject: Ask Gene Green to support Clean Energy
nanhildreth@...
Send Email Send Email
 
Congressman Gene Green has been voting against renewable energy and
energy efficiency.  Can you ask him to vote for clean energy and
climate protection at one of his four town hall meetings in the next
week?  Could you also pass out the attached flyer?   If you can, RSVP
to Nan Hildreth 713-842-6643 NanHildreth@...
www.HoustonClimateProtection.org or Environment Texas
1-512-479-0388.  www.environmentTexas.org

Thanks, Nan Hildreth



MEETINGS SCHEDULED
* Thurs 8/23, 6:30pm Southeast Houston,  Stanager Library.  (From the
intersection of 45 and Wayside go north on Wayside.  The road will
split at Polk, and you will be on S/Sgt Macario Garcia. Go past
Harrisburg. The library will be on your left just before Canal Street.)
* Sat 8/25 11am, East, Jacinto City (610 east & I-10 east)
* Mon 8/27 6:30pm Northeast, Beltway 8 North of i-10
* Tues 8/28 6:30, Northside, Little York & 45 N
Location information:  http://www.house.gov/green/news_center/events.shtml

To contact Green http://www.house.gov/green/contact/ His district is
shown on http://www.house.gov/green/district/map_large.html To lookup
your elected officials. http://www.fyi.legis.state.tx.us/

BACKGROUND INFORMATION
The Safe Climate Act, HR 1590,  would require electricity companies
to buy more renewable energy.   The bill would direct the EPA to make
cars more fuel efficient (reduce greenhouse gas emissions).   The
bill would freeze greenhouse gas emissions at 2009 levels and set up
a cap and trade system.   The bill would direct electricity companies
to invest more in energy efficiency programs that would save you
money.  http://www.house.gov/waxman/safeclimate/

More than 140 members of Congress including Sheila Jackson Lee have
co-sponsored the Safe Climate Act. Green's vote is important as he's
on the Congressional Energy Committee.   Gene Green led opposition to
raising auto gas
mileage.
http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=2007_4396543
Green's opposition to energy saving and clean energy made
international news.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6824723,00.html


Nan Hildreth   NanHildreth@...
Houston    713-443-3104

"An authentic movement is not a play for power - it is teaching and
learning writ large."  "Now the world becomes our classroom, and the
potential to teach and learn is found everywhere.  We need only be in
the world as our true selves, with open hearts and minds."

"the simple choice to live with integrity can have far-reaching effects."

Palker Palmer in Yes! Magazine
http://www.yesmagazine.org/article.asp?ID=796

#6722 From: "n/ a" <writeme112@...>
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:41 am
Subject: please consider the following petition
data2net
Send Email Send Email
 

forward to your email list if you agree.  this is a trillion dollar bail out by tax payers

 

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/NOSUBPRIMEBAILOUT/


From: Nan Hildreth <nanhildreth@...>
Reply-To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [hreg] Ask Gene Green to support Clean Energy
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 13:06:12 -0500

Congressman Gene Green has been voting against renewable energy and
energy efficiency. Can you ask him to vote for clean energy and
climate protection at one of his four town hall meetings in the next
week? Could you also pass out the attached flyer? If you can, RSVP
to Nan Hildreth 713-842-6643 NanHildreth@riseup.net
www.HoustonClimateProtection.org or Environment Texas
1-512-479-0388. www.environmentTexas.org

Thanks, Nan Hildreth

MEETINGS SCHEDULED
* Thurs 8/23, 6:30pm Southeast Houston, Stanager Library. (From the
intersection of 45 and Wayside go north on Wayside. The road will
split at Polk, and you will be on S/Sgt Macario Garcia. Go past
Harrisburg. The library will be on your left just before Canal Street.)
* Sat 8/25 11am, East, Jacinto City (610 east & I-10 east)
* Mon 8/27 6:30pm Northeast, Beltway 8 North of i-10
* Tues 8/28 6:30, Northside, Little York & 45 N
Location information: http://www.house.gov/green/news_center/events.shtml

To contact Green http://www.house.gov/green/contact/ His district is
shown on http://www.house.gov/green/district/map_large.html To lookup
your elected officials. http://www.fyi.legis.state.tx.us/

BACKGROUND INFORMATION
The Safe Climate Act, HR 1590, would require electricity companies
to buy more renewable energy. The bill would direct the EPA to make
cars more fuel efficient (reduce greenhouse gas emissions). The
bill would freeze greenhouse gas emissions at 2009 levels and set up
a cap and trade system. The bill would direct electricity companies
to invest more in energy efficiency programs that would save you
money. http://www.house.gov/waxman/safeclimate/

More than 140 members of Congress including Sheila Jackson Lee have
co-sponsored the Safe Climate Act. Green's vote is important as he's
on the Congressional Energy Committee. Gene Green led opposition to
raising auto gas
mileage.
http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=2007_4396543
Green's opposition to energy saving and clean energy made
international news.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6824723,00.html

Nan Hildreth NanHildreth@riseup.net
Houston 713-443-3104

"An authentic movement is not a play for power - it is teaching and
learning writ large." "Now the world becomes our classroom, and the
potential to teach and learn is found everywhere. We need only be in
the world as our true selves, with open hearts and minds."

"the simple choice to live with integrity can have far-reaching effects."

Palker Palmer in Yes! Magazine
http://www.yesmagazine.org/article.asp?ID=796


><< Greenflyer.doc >>



Booking a flight? Know when to buy with airfare predictions on MSN Travel.

#6723 From: Susan Modikoane <suemodikoane@...>
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:46 pm
Subject: Green Photos, etc.
suemodikoane
Send Email Send Email
 

Green, Eco, Photography & Videography Needed


Reply to: job-402098020@...
Date: 2007-08-21, 12:48AM CDT


Company seeking to build collection of green, eco, environmental, sustainable, nature, and eco friendly, royalty free video and photography. Flowers, trees, oceans, streams, rivers, hybrid cars, wind turbines, sunsets, anything that relates to the environment, we want it!

We are trying to gather stock footage from videographers and photographers who currently have these types of images/video to feature and sell on our website. We will also be hiring videographers to shoot reels for us in the future. If you have a camera and love the outdoors, this is for you! If you currently have your work on other royalty free sharing sites, we want to talk to you.

Profits will be split 50/50 when individual clips are purchased online and all rights will still be retained by the videographer/photographer. This just gives you the videographer and photographer another way to get your material out to the public and be seen!

Respond to this posting if interested. Please pass along to those you might know who may be interested.


Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

#6724 From: Susan Modikoane <suemodikoane@...>
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:16 am
Subject: "Clean" Coal Plants Create Toxic Ash
suemodikoane
Send Email Send Email
 
Plants' Cleanup May Create Side-Effect
Sunday August 26, 2:20 pm ET
By Anna Jo Bratton, Associated Press Writer
With Coal Production, Cleaner Skies Could Mean More Landfills; Treated Ash Has to Go Somewhere
OMAHA, Neb. (AP) -- As the nation's coal-fired power plants work to create cleaner skies, they'll likely fill up landfills with millions more tons of potentially harmful ash.
More than one-third of the ash generated at the country's hundreds of coal-fired plants is now recycled -- mixed with cement to build highways or used to stabilize embankments, among other things.
ADVERTISEMENT
But in a process being used increasingly across the nation, chemicals are injected into plants' emissions to capture airborne pollutants.
That, in turn, changes the composition of the ash and cuts its usefulness. It can't be used in cement, for example, because the interaction of the chemicals may keep the concrete from hardening.
That ash has to go somewhere -- so it usually ends up in landfills, along with the rest of the unusable waste.
"You're replacing an air problem with a land problem -- a disposal problem," said Bruce Dockter, a research engineer with the Energy and Environmental Research Center at the University of North Dakota.
Coal ash naturally contains arsenic and mercury, and if the elements leach into groundwater they can contaminate drinking supplies. The EPA says ash disposed of in landfills could pose significant risks when mismanaged, and there are gaps in state regulation.
And the chemicals added to clean up emissions -- such as ammonia, lime and calcium hydroxide -- make the ash worse, environmental groups say, because they take toxins such as mercury out of the air but leave higher levels of it in the ash.
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency doesn't classify coal ash -- with or without the added chemicals -- as a hazardous waste, although many environmental groups say it should.
"As a general rule, anything you do to make the air emissions cleaner makes the ash more toxic," said Lisa Evans, an attorney with Earthjustice, a nonprofit environmental law firm.
More than 120 million tons of ash and other leftovers come from coal combustion each year in the United States, and more than 46 million tons are reused, according to the American Coal Ash Association.
Environmental groups encourage reuse of the ash because it keeps most of the waste out of landfills. And substituting ash for cement means less mining for the materials typically used to make cement -- consequently causing a drop in the amount of carbon dioxide that would be emitted by mining machinery.
But the EPA is pushing power companies to cut emissions of the sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxides, which add to smog and acid rain and contribute to thousands of premature deaths, asthma and other respiratory ailments. A large portion of those emissions come from coal plants, the EPA says.
"If you live near a power plant, you want the cleanest air possible," said Dave Goss, executive director of the American Coal Ash Association. "If in exchange for clean air they have to dispose of material -- that's the challenge. The only option may be putting it in a landfill."
It's not clear how many plants already using or will use the new technology or how much ash may be affected, but the technique is becoming widespread as companies work to comply with federal guidelines, Goss said.
The issue was raised as the EPA developed air emissions rules, but the power sector has found ways to minimize the impact, said EPA spokesman John Millett, who said the agency doesn't believe the increased injection of the chemicals into ash will cause a significant drop-off in ash recycling.
But the effects are evident in Nebraska, for example, where the Omaha Public Power District sells about 135,000 tons of ash from its current plant near Nebraska City every year. Ash from a new plant being built nearby will be injected with chemicals to clean emissions, and it will be dumped in a 16-acre landfill to be built onsite at a cost of $2.7 million, said Mike Jones, a spokesman for the utility.
"You've got to do something with it," Jones said. "This was the best option."
The landfill will fill up in about five years and likely have to be expanded.
Xcel Energy Inc. will use the injection equipment on a new plant near Pueblo, Colo., and also will install the equipment on two existing units there. The ash will be dumped in a 250-acre onsite landfill.
But even if there is a drop in recycling, the trade-off might be worth it.
"The benefits of the additional (emission) reductions from these controls is immense," Millett said.
In Nebraska, the dump sites are closely regulated, said Bill Gidley, a section supervisor with the state's Department of Environmental Quality. Landfills must have liners to collect seepage, and they are inspected every year.
This month, the Maryland Department of the Environment ordered the operator of an 80-acre Anne Arundel County coal ash dump to clean contaminated water detected near the site. Cancer-causing metals were discovered last fall in almost two dozen wells in the area. BBSS Inc. also was fined an undisclosed amount.
In a 2000 report, the EPA promised to re-evaluate the potential risks of coal ash and is developing regulations for disposal of coal byproducts in landfills, spokeswoman Roxanne Smith said.
There are ways to remove the pollutants from emissions without making the ash unusable. But that equipment can be up to four times more expensive, adding millions of dollars to the cost of meeting EPA guidelines, Goss said.
"The utility's primary goal is to provide cheap, dependable electricity for you, the consumer, connected to the grid," he said. "In order to do that and maintain compliance, sometimes the only thing they can do is make the ash unusable."
American Coal Ash Association: http://www.acaa-usa.org
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency: http://www.epa.gov
Coal Ash Research Center, University of North Dakota: http://www.undeerc.org/carrc


Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

#6725 From: Solar Energy <WhySolar@...>
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:45 pm
Subject: Radioactivity in Food & Water Supply
whysolar
Send Email Send Email
 

Are there inexpensive testers on the market one could purchase to measure the amount of radiactivity in food & water supplies?  I recall reading an article some 35 or 40 years ago about finding ways how to reduce world population on earth.  Of course, the "elites" who would come up with such an evil plan would protect themselves against such a Holocaust.  If such a device would become available and affordable then everyone should own one just like having a cellphone with you all the time.

Ahmad


Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

#6726 From: "Robert Johnston" <junk1@...>
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:20 pm
Subject: RE: Radioactivity in Food & Water Supply
pencil1959
Send Email Send Email
 
I think this kind of conspiracist thinking is irrelevant to the topic of renewable energy.  In any case, this will be far more likely to occur at the hands of terrorists than at the hands of the "elite". 
 
Robert


From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Solar Energy
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 9:46 AM
To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [hreg] Radioactivity in Food & Water Supply


Are there inexpensive testers on the market one could purchase to measure the amount of radiactivity in food & water supplies?  I recall reading an article some 35 or 40 years ago about finding ways how to reduce world population on earth.  Of course, the "elites" who would come up with such an evil plan would protect themselves against such a Holocaust.  If such a device would become available and affordable then everyone should own one just like having a cellphone with you all the time.

Ahmad


Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.


#6727 From: "Bashir Syed" <bsyed@...>
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:54 pm
Subject: Re: Radioactivity in Food & Water Supply
drycellsc
Send Email Send Email
 
U.S., Russia, France, China, India and Pakistan have conducted open-air tests of their nukes in the past. The mushroom clouds which have now become houshold words (thanks to Cheney, Powell, Condoleeza Rice, Rumsfeld and Bush) to scare the public, which did take place about which plenty of information is posted on the web. One particular incident which ocurred in New York State relates to a Pupblic Water Resrvoir near Renneselear Polytechnic Institite in Troy, New York, where scientists observed unususally high radioactivity found in the water in this resevoir contaminated by fallout from such tests. The early warning was sounded by Prof. Barry Commoner (then at Washington University, St. Louis, MO during late fifties) about the effect of Strontium 90 accumulated in the baby-teeth coming from cows milk grazing in open fields, which was supposed to diminish in time. The recent studies reveal shocking results, like those at Chernobyl to indicate higher level of radiation after several years. Here are some good references on this subject is:
1. "SECRET FALLOUT: Low-Level Radiation from Hiroshima to Three-Mile Island, by Enrnest Sternglass, (introduction by George Wald, Nobel Laureate in Physiology and Medicine)McGraw-Hill Book Company, 1972 and 1981.  
2. "Depleted Uranium- Metal of Dishonor: How the Pentagon RADIATES soldiers and civilians with DU Weapons," 2nd Edition  by Ramsey Clark et al., International Action Center, New York 1999. This book provides startling evidence which was presented at "Depleted Uranium Sumposium held in Baghdad, Iraq, in December 1998.
3.  "Plutonium Files," by Eileen Welsome, Dial Press, Random House, New York 1999. This book describes some unheard of things on pp. 253-263, about troops kept ignorant inhalation hazards of radioactive dust caused by detonation of such devices, resulting in the debris and dust. How U.S. scientists injected Plutonium and Uranium in Patientsd without their explicit permiossioon and knowledge about the hazards of radio-activity from these elements. This was trhe result of declassification of War-time records from Los Alamos Laboratory, carried out by Hazel O'Leary, Secretary of Energy during Clinton administration.
Isn't this worse rthan a hypothetical suitcase bomb, about which the adminbistration has left no stone unturned to scare the public, involving Sen. Kay Baily Hutuchison, who appeared in one of the Hollywood flick dramatizing such a hypothetical ocurrence and many books and magazine articles have been published for continued funding  for those (or their job security) claiming to make us safe.
Even asking about such instruments for checking any radioactivity these days can automatically arise suspicions. Thus the wisest thing is to contact State Radiation Safety (falls under EPA) or some university folks (e.g. Prairie View A&M, NASA Center for Applied Radiation Research).
 
Bashir A. Syed
former Member Radiation Safety Committee, at NASA/JSC.
Member APS, IEEE (NSRE & NPPS), UCS, ASES, ISES & New York Acdemy of Sciences.
 
  
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 10:20 AM
Subject: RE: [hreg] Radioactivity in Food & Water Supply

I think this kind of conspiracist thinking is irrelevant to the topic of renewable energy.  In any case, this will be far more likely to occur at the hands of terrorists than at the hands of the "elite". 
 
Robert


From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Solar Energy
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 9:46 AM
To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [hreg] Radioactivity in Food & Water Supply


Are there inexpensive testers on the market one could purchase to measure the amount of radiactivity in food & water supplies?  I recall reading an article some 35 or 40 years ago about finding ways how to reduce world population on earth.  Of course, the "elites" who would come up with such an evil plan would protect themselves against such a Holocaust.  If such a device would become available and affordable then everyone should own one just like having a cellphone with you all the time.

Ahmad


Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.


#6728 From: "Ed Sarlls" <edsarlls@...>
Date: Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:54 am
Subject: Fw: Hydrogen
edsarlls@...
Send Email Send Email
 
This sounds like a significant reduction in the cost of Hydrogen production.
Of course a press release only gives the good points.

http://www.americansecurityresources.com/subsidiaries/

#6729 From: Susan Modikoane <suemodikoane@...>
Date: Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:14 pm
Subject: Info
suemodikoane
Send Email Send Email
 
This may be off topic, but I think it is important enough to be posted and hope that those of you who are offended will forgive me.  Wayne Madsen was a Navy Seal and a former Intelligence Agent.  There are government officials that post on this website.
 
August 27, 2007 -- Financial markets also indicating a September "Surprise"
WMR has learned from British government sources that billions of dollars in "put options" are being placed by anonymous investors in the United States and Europe. These speculators are betting that the value of a number of stocks will drop by one-third around the time of a suspected market crash sometime before September 21.
The word from the City of London is that "big trades are being made by mysterious traders."
The week prior to 9/11 saw six times the number of put options placed on the stocks of companies directly affacted by the terrorist attacks, including American and United Airlines, Morgan Staley Dean Witter, Merrill Lynch, and Swiss Re.
On August 22, WMR reported on chatter about a possible "incident" in the San Francisco Bay area during the Labor Day weekend.
WMR has now learned that the Treasury Department plans to conduct an unprecedented "emergency exercise" with some 3000 banks around the country during the month of September. Officially, this exercise is being billed as a drill for a potential bird flu pandemic but the timing -- September -- has some financial analysts and experts concerned.
Adding to the jitters was the recent statement by former Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers about the risk of a recession in the same sentence he mentioned 9/11: "It would be far too premature to judge this crisis over . . . I would say the risks of recession are now greater than they've been any time since the period in the aftermath of 9/11."


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#6730 From: "Jim & Janet" <jhd1@...>
Date: Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:41 pm
Subject: Re: Info
txsolarguy
Send Email Send Email
 
Susan'
 I think that anyone who is offended is not paying attention to the world news.
I, and an expected 2000 other peaceful war protestors will be confronting attendees at the statewide Republican Straw Poll in Fort Worth. That's right in Fort Worth.
It would be a perfect time for officials to crack down on a convergence of "enemies of the state". I hope that many from around the state will join us in this "approved" peaceful public event. http://www.texansforpeace.org/
Jim Duncan
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 9:14 AM
Subject: [hreg] Info

This may be off topic, but I think it is important enough to be posted and hope that those of you who are offended will forgive me.  Wayne Madsen was a Navy Seal and a former Intelligence Agent.  There are government officials that post on this website.
 
August 27, 2007 -- Financial markets also indicating a September "Surprise"
WMR has learned from British government sources that billions of dollars in "put options" are being placed by anonymous investors in the United States and Europe. These speculators are betting that the value of a number of stocks will drop by one-third around the time of a suspected market crash sometime before September 21.
The word from the City of London is that "big trades are being made by mysterious traders."
The week prior to 9/11 saw six times the number of put options placed on the stocks of companies directly affacted by the terrorist attacks, including American and United Airlines, Morgan Staley Dean Witter, Merrill Lynch, and Swiss Re.
On August 22, WMR reported on chatter about a possible "incident" in the San Francisco Bay area during the Labor Day weekend.
WMR has now learned that the Treasury Department plans to conduct an unprecedented "emergency exercise" with some 3000 banks around the country during the month of September. Officially, this exercise is being billed as a drill for a potential bird flu pandemic but the timing -- September -- has some financial analysts and experts concerned.
Adding to the jitters was the recent statement by former Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers about the risk of a recession in the same sentence he mentioned 9/11: "It would be far too premature to judge this crisis over . . . I would say the risks of recession are now greater than they've been any time since the period in the aftermath of 9/11."


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#6731 From: Nan Hildreth <nanhildreth@...>
Date: Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:11 pm
Subject: Free passes to "11th Hour" Documentary on the Environment
nanhildreth@...
Send Email Send Email
 
>From: "Geoffrey Castro" <Geoffrey@...>
>
>CLEAN has 100 passes to an advanced screening of
>the new documentary "The 11th Hour." Produced
>and narrated by Leonardo DiCaprio, The 11th Hour
>describes the last moment when change is
>possible. The film explores how humanity has
>arrived at this moment; how we live; how we
>impact the earth's exosystems, and what we can
>do to change our course. The film features
>dialogue with experts from all over the world,
>inlcuding former Soviet Prime Minister Mikhail
>Gobachev, renowned scientist Stephen Hawking,
>former head od the CIA R. James Woolsey and
>sustainable design experts William McDonough and
>Bruce Mau in addition to over 50 leading
>scientists, thinkers and leaders who present the
>facts and discuss the important issues that face our planet.
>
>passes can be picked up at the events listed
>below or by stopping by the CLEAN office during
>regular business Hours.  For more on the film
>visit:
><http://wip.warnerbros.com/11thhour/>http://wip.warnerbros.com/11thhour/.
>
>When: Thursday, August 30th @ 7 pm
>Where: Landmark River Oaks,  2009 W, Gray St.
>
>
>Best regards,
>
>Geoffrey Castro
>
>----------------------------
>CLEAN
>5120 Woodway Ste. 9004
>Houston, TX 77056
>Ph: (713) 524-3000
><http://www.cleanhouston.org>www.cleanhouston.org
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:info@...>CLEAN
>To: <mailto:geoffrey@...>geoffrey@...
>Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 7:20 PM
>Subject: Two Upcoming CLEAN Events
>
>cleancolor
>
>
>[]
>
>[]
>
>[]
>
>[]
>
>
>Presentation on Environmental Justice in East
>Texas & Film Screening of Kilowatt Ours
>
>We are sponsoring two events this week.
>
>On Tuesday please come out to see an audio/video
>presentation of Fruit of the Orchard/ Environmental Justice in East Texas.
>
>Date: Tuesday, August 28, 2007
>Time: 7-8:30pm
>Location: Unitarian Church, 5200 Fannin, in the
>Museum District, on the corner or Fannin and Southmore
>
>The presentation features photographs taken by
>Tammy Cromer-Campbell that document the effects
>of pollution on the rural east Texas town of Winona.
>
>Background: Winona is a tight-knit community of
>500 people living downwind of a toxic-waste
>injection well facility built in 1982. The
>residents were told that the company would plant
>fruit trees on the land left over from its
>ostensible salt-water injection well. Soon after
>the plant opened, however, residents started
>noticing huge reddish brown clouds rising from
>the facility and an increase in rates of cancer
>and birth defects in both humans and animals.
>The company dismissed their concerns, and
>confusion about what chemicals it accepted made
>investigations difficult. The story was featured
>in People, the Houston Chronicle Magazine, and
>The Dallas Observer. The plant finally closed in
>1998, citing the negative publicity generated by the group.
>
>This project began when Cromer-Campbell was
>asked by Phyllis Glazer to produce a photograph
>for a poster about the campaign. She was so
>touched by the people in the town that she set
>out to document their stories. Using a plastic
>Holga camera, she created hauntingly distorted
>images that are both works of art and testaments
>to the damage inflicted on the people of a small
>Texas town by one company's greed. For more on
>Tammy and the exhibit visit the Fruit of the
>Orchard
><http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=9tey4dcab.0.qp7axccab.ltexlobab.1&ts=S0278&p=http%3A%2\
F%2Fwww.cep.unt.edu%2Ffoto%2F>website.
>
>
>
>On Wednesday come out to Rice University to see Kilowatt Ours
>Date: Wednesday, August 29, 2007
>Time: 7pm
>Location: Rice Media Center, Rice University
>6100 Main St. (Entrance No.8) Houston, TX 77005
>
>Admission is FREE to ALL!
>
>Background:Kilowatt Ours is the story of Jeff
>Barrie's 18 month journey across the southeast
>United States to document our energy related
>problems and present practical solutions for
>them. Visit
><http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=9tey4dcab.0.s9894dcab.ltexlobab.1&ts=S0278&p=http%3A%2\
F%2Fwww.kilowattours.org>Kilowatt
>Ours for more information.
>
>We will also host a Q&A session which will start tentatively at 8:30pm.
>
><http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=9tey4dcab.0.8edonobab.ltexlobab.1&ts=S0278&p=http%3A%2\
F%2Fwww.cleanhouston.org>CLEAN
><mailto:info@...>info@...
>[]
>
>[]
>
>[]
>
>
><http://ui.constantcontact.com/sa/fwtf.jsp?m=1101067424363&ea=geoffrey%40cleanh\
ouston.org&a=1101793071738>Forward
>email
>
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>CLEAN | 5120 Woodway, STE 9004 | Houston | TX | 77056


Nan Hildreth   NanHildreth@...
Houston    713-443-3104

"An authentic movement is not a play for power -
it is teaching and learning writ large."  "Now
the world becomes our classroom, and the
potential to teach and learn is found
everywhere.  We need only be in the world as our
true selves, with open hearts and minds."

"the simple choice to live with integrity can have far-reaching effects."

Palker Palmer in Yes! Magazine
http://www.yesmagazine.org/article.asp?ID=796

#6732 From: Susan Modikoane <suemodikoane@...>
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:39 pm
Subject: Communes
suemodikoane
Send Email Send Email
 
 
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    Kristan Gibbs, 40, gives her son Alex Gibbs, 9, a hug at Lake Village Homestead in Kalamazoo, Mich., as she gets ready to leave for work. Kristan's father, Roger Ulrich, founded Lake Village Homestead in 1971, and she spent much of her childhood there, later returning with her husband, Rod Gibb, to raise their two sons on a parcel of land adjacent to the main farm. Kristan Gibbs, 40, gives her son Alex Gibbs, 9, a hug at Lake Village Homestead in Kalamazoo, Mich., as she gets ready to leave for work. Kristan's father, Roger Ulrich, founded Lake Village Homestead in 1971, and she spent much of her childhood there, later returning with her husband, Rod Gibb, to raise their two sons on a parcel of land adjacent to the main farm.

    By Eileen Blass, USA TODAY staff
    Thriving communes no haven for 'deadbeats'
    Updated 28m ago | Comments 4  | Recommend   E-mail | Save | Print | Reprints & Permissions | Subscribe to stories like this
    Deb Rutgers, who has lived at Lake Village homestead since December 2006 and loves the quiet serenity, plays with a young goat. She said, "there's a rightness to it all." About the animals who roam all over the farm, Deb said, "they provide for us, and we provide for them."
    By Eileen Blass, USA TODAY staff
    Deb Rutgers, who has lived at Lake Village homestead since December 2006 and loves the quiet serenity, plays with a young goat. She said, "there's a rightness to it all." About the animals who roam all over the farm, Deb said, "they provide for us, and we provide for them."
    Erik Moisio, 25, of Marquette, MI, gathers pieces of cut wood while cleaning up an area on the farm. Erik has lived at Lake Village Homestead for about 3 months. There are now about 50 members, 15 who live communally in shared quarters.
     Enlarge By Eileen Blass, USA TODAY staff
    Erik Moisio, 25, of Marquette, MI, gathers pieces of cut wood while cleaning up an area on the farm. Erik has lived at Lake Village Homestead for about 3 months. There are now about 50 members, 15 who live communally in shared quarters.
    Ella Kaufman, 6, center, and Della Seuss, 8, right, munch on apples while talking with Deb Rutgers. Della's grandfather Roger Ullrich
founded Lake Village Homestead in 1971, and Ella is the daughter of Tony Kaufman, who is a manager at the farm.
     Enlarge By Eileen Blass, USA TODAY staff
    Ella Kaufman, 6, center, and Della Seuss, 8, right, munch on apples while talking with Deb Rutgers. Della's grandfather Roger Ullrich founded Lake Village Homestead in 1971, and Ella is the daughter of Tony Kaufman, who is a manager at the farm.
    Jessica Foster, 31, who has lived at Lake Village for two months, gives some goat milk to the pigs on the Homestead. Jessica was helping fellow resident, Erik Moisio, with chore duty.
     Enlarge By Eileen Blass, USA TODAY staff
    Jessica Foster, 31, who has lived at Lake Village for two months, gives some goat milk to the pigs on the Homestead. Jessica was helping fellow resident, Erik Moisio, with chore duty.
    Roger Ulrich, 75, drives a converted Amish buggy around the 300-acre commune he founded that&nbsp;promotes an ecological and sustainable lifestyle.&nbsp;Ulrich has an Amish background.&nbsp;
     Enlarge By Eileen Blass, USA TODAY staff
    Roger Ulrich, 75, drives a converted Amish buggy around the 300-acre commune he founded that promotes an ecological and sustainable lifestyle. Ulrich has an Amish background. 
    KALAMAZOO, Mich. — Back in the Summer of Love, communes were notorious havens for free love and illicit drugs where youthful hippies spurned materialism and got back to nature.
    Forty years after the peak of that era, thousands of communes still flourish and inspire more experiments in communal living. These days, dope-smoking hippies are out. Environmentally conscious living for people of all ages is the new ethos. Even the label "communes" has fallen from favor. Call them "intentional communities."
    Life at Lake Village Homestead here hasn't changed much since the commune was founded 36 years ago on a farm outside this college town. Founder Roger Ulrich, 75, says the newest residents are "longing to get back to the earth. It's really nostalgia for peace, not the hippie lifestyle."
    Still, some of the hallmarks of Lake Village's early days are gone: Most members work at regular jobs. Some own their own property adjacent to the commune. People don't gather for meals or parties as often as they once did.
    As many as 10,000 intentional communities span the USA and more form every year, says Timothy Miller, author of several books on the subject. At their peak in the early 1970s, he says, there were 20,000 to 50,000.
    FIND MORE STORIES IN: Religious groups | Timothy Miller
    "They are still very much thriving, typically very quietly," says Miller, a University of Kansas religious historian. "A lot of them are afraid they're going to get inundated with deadbeats, and a lot are in violation of zoning laws."
    Geoph Kozeny, who helps compile a directory of communes, says the resurgence is the result of changes in the way they describe themselves. "The movement has gotten better at talking about common values: finding a safe place to bring up kids, being able to leave their doors unlocked, a focus on the environment," he says.
    Kozeny splits his time between Purple Rose Collective, a San Francisco housing co-op, and The Farm, a commune in Summertown, Tenn., that once had more than 1,000 members and offers courses in sustainable living and runs an online virtual hippie museum.
    Intentional communities include various living arrangements:
    •Communes, where incomes and property are often shared.
    •Religious groups. Historically, three-fourths of communes are in this category, Miller says.
    •Housing cooperatives, where people share housing and make decisions collectively.
    •Ecovillages, which are dedicated to environmental sustainability.
    •Cohousing, the latest trend. About 90 exist across the nation and dozens more are planned. Residents, often senior citizens, own their homes, share ownership of land or community centers and are expected to socialize together like an extended family.
    Close neighbors
    Philip Leinbach, 71, lives in a cohousing community of 70 people in Durham, N.C. "It works because people are interested in knowing their neighbors well, intimately almost," he says. "We're a neighborhood and not quite a family."
    Communal living was part of American culture long before hippies moved in together.
    Mormons, Shakers, the Oneida Community and other mostly religious groups created "utopian" settlements in the 19th century, says Lawrence Foster, a Georgia Tech historian. The Amish and the Hutterites still live communally; others didn't endure. "Some people thought this was a really great idea," he says. "Other people said, 'These guys are dangerous.' "
    The people who founded communes in the 1960s and '70s faced similar reactions. Traditional sexual mores were challenged and income-sharing sometimes stirred resentment.
    Musawa Moore, 63, who in 1973 helped found We'Moon Land, a women's community near Estacada, Ore., says adapting to the lifestyle can be difficult. "People are tied into consumer things and the city," she says. "Living peacefully on the land is not for everyone."
    At Lake Village, members share responsibility for tending the garden and horses, cattle, pigs, goats and chickens. The farm is owned by a corporation formed by members. Everyone chips in for utilities, animal feed and other expenses.
    Jessica Foster, 31, moved in with her partner two months ago because they craved "being part of a big community," she says. "We're hoping to be here for a long time and raise kids here."
    Ulrich was chairman of the psychology department at Western Michigan University and living near campus when he decided in 1971 to create the commune. He based it on psychologist B.F. Skinner's 1948 book Walden Two, a fictional utopia built around collective ownership, minimal consumption and deep social relationships.
    Gradual acceptance
    Lake Village has 50 members who live on 300 acres in two communal houses and 13 separate single-family homes. It didn't label itself a commune in the early days, Ulrich says, "but the neighbors did. Some wanted to come over and smoke grass, and some wanted to get rid of us. There was conflict then, big time." Neighbors gradually accepted the community.
    Residents include a fast-food worker, Wal-Mart employee, massage therapist and retired cop. Those who work only on the farm are paid by the hour. An eight-member board sets policies.
    "Why does it work? It's never clear that it does," Ulrich says. "It's a work in progress."
    Roy Guisinger, 44, has a name for the commune he wants to create on his 20-acre spread in rural central Nebraska: Solstice Dawn.
    Communal living has appealed to him since he lived in an "unintentional community" in college, Guisinger says. "I think we're tribal creatures, and I think we need close personal connections."
    Guisinger wants to recruit 12 adults. "Free love, drugs, whatever — I don't want those," he says. He wants to create a cottage industry, perhaps growing organic fruit.
    Miller says communal living's appeal stems from questions many people ask themselves: "Why do we live fragmented, separate lives? … What happened to the old idea of neighbors and interaction? People would like to recapture it."


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    #6733 From: Susan Modikoane <suemodikoane@...>
    Date: Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:52 am
    Subject: Prediction
    suemodikoane
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    This is a gentleman who predicted the current market and goes on to explain the outcome for our nation over the next couple of weeks.  Very short (4 minutes).  He expects a terrorist attack sometime around the beginning of the 4th quarter.
     
     


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