> From: <Gooeyduk@...>
> Reply-To: <herodotus@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 20:07:31 EST
> To: <herodotus@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [herodotus] What's happening ?
>
> I've got my Herodotus book, my reading glasses, and my bowl of popcorn.
> What's next?

Karen wrote me a couple of days ago to say that she was suffering from
bronchial pneumonia. But she promised to post a message soon. I hope Karen
gets well soon. But while we are waiting I don't think we need to keep
silent. Maybe the best thing for us to do right now is to start accumulating
questions.

Lancelot Fletcher
Herodotus Group Owner

I've already read the introduction in Grene's translation as was suggested we
do!

Dimitri







-----Original Message-----
From: Gooeyduk@...
To: herodotus@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 8:07 pm
Subject: [herodotus] What's happening ?

























I've got my Herodotus book, my reading glasses, and my bowl of popcorn.

What's next?



**************

Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.



  http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





















________________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've got my Herodotus book, my reading glasses, and my bowl of popcorn.
What's next?


**************
Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.

  http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

For the benefit of others, I am sending a paper
entitled "How Plato designed Atlantis" to Lance.  In a
succeeding paper "Grand Design in Antiquity", it is
demonstrated clearly that Plato's elaborate
mathematical design for Atlantis (see "Critias") can
be found in another form, brilliantly transformed, in
"The Histories".  More correctly, Atlantis is a
transformation of designs that appear in Herodotus's
opus.  Here is a minor example.  (Others are more
inventive.)

In Book 2 of "The Histories" Herodotus tells us the
coastline of Egypt is 3600 (60 x 60) stades long.  A
Greek stade contained 600 Greek feet.  The coastline
can therefore be said to measure 2,160,000 Greek feet.
  The number 216 is a famous Pythagorean number: 6 x 6
x 6.

There are two major land features in Atlantis:  the
central ring island arrangement 27 stades in diameter
- 27 = 3 x 3 x 3, and the great plain 3000 by 2000
stades.

The plain covers an area of 6,000,000 square stades.
Turn this to square Greek feet and the familiar number
216 appears:

6,000,000 x 600 x 600 = 2,160,000,000,000 square Greek
feet.

This is new material.  But it barely scratches the
surface.  Eventually, the reason for the interest in
216 will be unfolded.

Cheers
Les


--- Lancelot Fletcher <lancelotfletcher@...>
wrote:

> Les,
>
> > Count me in too.  (See the abstract below of a
> work I recently
> > completed writing.  It outlines my special
> interests.  Anyone have a
> > view on Herodotus as a Pythagorean?)
>
> I don't have a view, but I am open to considering
> the possibility. The
> influence of the Pythagoreans on the development of
> Greek thought in the 6th
> and 5th centuries was obviously very considerable,
> although difficult to
> speak about with precision.
>
> Is your work available for us to read?
>
> What's your opinion of this article:
> http://herodot.georgehinge.com/orph.html ?
>
> Lance Fletcher
>
>
>
>


P.O. Box 314
Mentone, Victoria  3194  Australia
Email:  neoplatonist2000@...


      
________________________________________________________________________________\
____
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

Hi Lance

I will send something in the near future.  Family
matters are taking up my time for the moment.
However, I will send you a document under separate
cover that may get you thinking.  Cheers.

Les

--- Lancelot Fletcher <lancelotfletcher@...>
wrote:

> Les,
>
> > Count me in too.  (See the abstract below of a
> work I recently
> > completed writing.  It outlines my special
> interests.  Anyone have a
> > view on Herodotus as a Pythagorean?)
>
> I don't have a view, but I am open to considering
> the possibility. The
> influence of the Pythagoreans on the development of
> Greek thought in the 6th
> and 5th centuries was obviously very considerable,
> although difficult to
> speak about with precision.
>
> Is your work available for us to read?
>
> What's your opinion of this article:
> http://herodot.georgehinge.com/orph.html ?
>
> Lance Fletcher
>
>
>
>


P.O. Box 314
Mentone, Victoria  3194  Australia
Email:  neoplatonist2000@...


      
________________________________________________________________________________\
____
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
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I have been reading the beginning of the new translation by Shlomo
Felberbaum, and I confess that I find it quite charming, so I thought I
would share the first installment of it here. You can get the whole thing
at: http://www.losttrails.com/pages/Tales/Inquiries/Herodotus.html, together
with a lot of quite beautiful black-and-white photographs by Shane Solow.

The whole Lost Trails website is very much worth a look. I was especially
charmed by the shockwave slideshow called "Postcards from the Georgia
Military Highway" which shows a series of what appear to be 19th Century
photos of the highway that runs over the Caucasus between Tbilisi, where I
live (called Tiflis on the map in the slideshow) and Vladikavkaz.

Just in case you think this is completely irrelevant, note that Georgia is
mentioned almost at the very beginning of Herodotus' book -- in the third
paragraph; Colchis being an ancient name for west Georgia, Aia being the
ancient name for Kutaisi, the second largest city in Georgia, and Phasis
being an ancient name for the river Rioni on which Kutaisi is situated. (see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kutaisi) To this day Medea is a common female
name in Georgia, however, the Georgian story about Medea is very different
from the one presented by Euripides.

Both Shlomo Felberbaum and Shane Solow were students of Seth Benardete, who
was also my teacher. Tim Spalding says that Felberbaum's translation "...is
extremely clunky, preserving Greek features such as word- and clause-order
to the considerable detriment of English style. It might be useful as a crib
for the Greek." (http://www.isidore-of-seville.com/herodotus/3.html) You can
judge for yourself from what I have quoted below whether or not the
translation is clunky. It's clear that Felberbaum has gone to considerable
effort to preserve the Greek word order as much as can be done while
producing grammatically correct and intelligible English sentences. It's
true that the experience of reading this translation is not at all like
reading a book that was written in English. It's a little like reading
Greek. Because the style is so unusual you can't read this translation
quickly; you have to read each sentence slowly and carefully in order to
make any sense of it. But that's not necessarily a bad thing for a slow
reading. Anyway, I like it.

Lance Fletcher

---------------------------------------

Inquiries by Herodotus

Book 1

translated by Shlomo Felberbaum



photographs by Shane Solow


Text and photographs Copyright © 1999--2003 Lost Trails
all rights reserved


Installment 1

Of Herodotus of Halicarnassus¹ inquiry here¹s the showing forth that neither
the deeds of human beings with time pass away nor great and marvellous
actions, some shown forth by Greeks, some by barbarians, lose renown, in
respect to all else and the cause why they warred with each other.

Now, the Persian spokesmen assert the Phoenicians proved the cause of the
quarrel. For they say that those men, on coming from the so-called Red Sea
to this sea and settling in that place in which even now they are settled,
at once applied themselves to long voyages, and exporting wares of Egypt and
Assyria, came to the rest of the land and particularly to Argos (Argos
during that time surpassed in all ways those in the country now called
Greece), that on coming to this very Argos, the Phoenicians were disposing
of their cargo until, the fifth or sixth day after they had come, almost
everything having been sold off by them, there went to the sea many other
women and especially the king¹s daughter, and her name was (in perfect
accord with what the Greeks too say) Io the child of Inachus, and that they
stood at the ship¹s stern and were bargaining for the wares for which their
desire was greatest, when the Phoenicians, cheering on one another, rushed
at them, and indeed the greater number of the women escaped, but Io with
others was seized, and the men put them onto the ship and went sailing off
toward Egypt.

That thus Io came to Egypt the Persians say, in disagreement with the
Greeks, and that that was the first beginning of the injustices, but after
it some of the Greeks (for they are unable to relate their name), they
assert, put in at Tyre in Phoenicia and seized the king¹s daughter, Europe
(these might have been Cretans), and, although that indeed was done by them
tit for tat, yet after it the Greeks proved the cause of the second
injustice. For they say that they, on sailing out with a large ship to Aia
in Colchis and over the river Phasis, accomplished everything else for which
they had come and thereupon seized the king¹s daughter, Medea, and, when the
Colchian had sent a herald to Greece and demanded justice for the seizure
and demanded back his daughter, they then replied that those men in Io of
Argos¹ case paid them no penalty for the seizure and therefore they
themselves would pay his men none.

The next generation after that, they say, Alexander, the son of Priam,
having heard of it, resolved a woman from Greece should become his through
seizure, because he knew at all events that he would pay no penalty, since
they refused to pay, and just then, at his seizure of Helen, the Greeks
decided at first to send messengers and to demand back Helen and demand
justice for the seizure, but their opponents, when they put forward these
demands, brought forward to them Medea¹s seizure and objected that, although
they for their part gave no satisfaction nor gave her up at men¹s demanding
her back, they wanted justice to be done to themselves by others.

So then thus far the Persians say there were seizures alone at each other¹s
hands, but from then on it was the Greeks who proved greatly guilty, because
they began to advance with an army against Asia before they themselves
against Europe and they maintain that, although seizing women is the work of
unjust men, yet, once they are seized, taking pains to exact vengeance is
that of unintelligent, while having no care at their seizure is that of
prudent, since it¹s quite clear that, if women themselves were not willing,
they would not be seized. Accordingly they, the men from Asia, the Persians
say, when the women were being seized, considered it of no account, but the
Greeks for a woman of Lacedaemon assembled a large armament and then came to
Asia and put down the power of Priam. Hence on each and every occasion they
believe the Greek to be hostile to them. For Asia and the barbarian nations
that live in it the Persians claim as their own, but Europe and the land of
Greece they hold to be separate.

The above the Persians say happened and on account of the capture of Ilium
they find there existed for themselves the beginning of enmity to the
Greeks, but concerning Io the Phoenicians speak in a manner unlike the
Persians; for they say they did not seize and bring her to Egypt, but that
in Argos she had intercourse with the owner of the ship and, when she had
learned she was pregnant and was ashamed before her parents, just then
voluntarily on her own she sailed out with the Phoenicians that she might
not be discovered. Now, these accounts the Persians and the Phoenicians
give. I, however, about them am not going to say that either or some other
account is what happened, but rather after indicating that man who I myself
know initiated unjust actions against the Greeks, I will proceed to the
later part of my account by going through small and great towns of human
beings alike. For many of them that in the past were great have become small
and those that in my time were great previously were small. Therefore, since
I know human happiness remains not at all in the same place, I will mention
both alike.

There was a Croesus, Lydian in race, son of Alyattes and tyrant of the
nations on this side of the Halys river, which flows from the south between
the Syrians and the Paphlagonians and discharges in the north wind¹s
direction into the so-called Hospitable Sea. This Croesus was the first of
the barbarians that we know of to subject some Greeks to tribute payment and
to gain over others as friends. He subjected the Ionians, the Aeolians and
the Dorians in Asia and gained over the Lacedaemonians as friends. Before
the rule of Croesus all Greeks were free. For the expedition of the
Cimmerians that came against Ionia, although it was earlier than Croesus¹,
proved no subjection of its cities, but a seizure by inroad.

The hegemony that was the sons of Heracles¹ devolved to the family of
Croesus, the so-called Mermnadae, in the following way. There was a
Candaules, whom the Greeks call Myrsilus, tyrant of Sardis and descendant of
Alcaeus, the son of Heracles. For Agron, the son of Ninus, the son of Belus,
the son of Alcaeus, was the first of the sons of Heracles to become king of
Sardis, and Candaules, the son of Myrsus, was the last. (Those before Agron
that were king of this land were descendants of Lydus, the son of Atys,
after whom the whole Lydian people was named, which previously was named the
Meonian. By them the sons of Heracles, descended from the slave Iardanus and
Heracles, were entrusted with and held the rule on the basis of an oracle
and ruled for twenty two generations of men, five hundred and five years,
son from father inheriting the rule, until Candaules, the son of Myrsus.) It
was that Candaules then who fell in love with his own wife and, fallen in
love, believed his wife was far the most beautiful of all women. Seeing that
he believed this, since he had among his bodyguards Gyges, the son of
Dascylus, a most pleasing man, to that Gyges, just as Candaules made over
the weightier of his affairs, so too especially he overpraised the looks of
his wife.

When not much time had passed, because it had to turn out badly for
Candaules, he spoke to Gyges like this: ³Gyges, since I think you are not
persuaded by me when I speak about the looks of my wife, as the ears of
human beings are in fact more mistrustful than the eyes, bring it about that
you will behold her naked.² And he with a loud cry said, ³Master, what kind
of unsound speech are you speaking in bidding me to behold my mistress
naked? Together with the taking off of her dress a woman takes off her shame
as well. Long the beautiful have been found out by human beings, from which
one must learn; among them is this one thing, that one should look to one¹s
own concerns. I am persuaded she is the most beautiful of all women, and of
you I ask not to ask what¹s unlawful.²

The one then by speaking like that tried to fight off the thing for fear
that any evil be done to him by it, but the other answered with this: ³Take
courage, Gyges, and stop being afraid either of me that making trial of you,
I am speaking this speech of mine, or my wife that any harm be done to you
by her, since, to begin with, I will so contrive it as for her not to learn
she was seen by you. For I will place you in the room in which we go to bed
behind the open door and after my coming in my wife too will be present for
bed. There sits near the entrance a chair; on it she will put her garments,
one by one, as she takes them off, and at great ease it will be in your
power to behold. But when she goes from the chair to the bed and you come to
be behind her, let it be your care at that time that she will not see you go
through the leaves of the door.²

Les,

> Count me in too.  (See the abstract below of a work I recently
> completed writing.  It outlines my special interests.  Anyone have a
> view on Herodotus as a Pythagorean?)

I don't have a view, but I am open to considering the possibility. The
influence of the Pythagoreans on the development of Greek thought in the 6th
and 5th centuries was obviously very considerable, although difficult to
speak about with precision.

Is your work available for us to read?

What's your opinion of this article:
http://herodot.georgehinge.com/orph.html ?

Lance Fletcher

I have added a few links to the Herodotus group website that may be useful
for members. For those of you who have access the group website, you may go
to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/herodotus/links.

For those who do not have a password to access the this website, I have
pasted the relevant information below.

Lance Fletcher

----------------------------------------
Links

Herodotean Inquiries by Seth Benardete
Publisher's listing for what some consider the best commentary on Herodotus.
http://www.staugustine.net/HerodoteanInquiries.html

Herodotus - text with Greek & English in parallel
G.C. Macaulay translation with Greek text in a parallel column. Very
beautifully presented if you like to read from a computer screen.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hh/index.htm

Herodotus at Perseus site
The Perseus site has the Greek of Herodotus together with the Godley
translation and extensive commentary and crossreferences.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=hdt.+1.1.0

Herodotus on the Web
Tim Spalding's Herodotus page in his Isidore-of-Seville site. Very useful
colletction of links.
http://www.isidore-of-seville.com/herodotus/

Herodotus' Inquiries translated by Shlomo Felberbaum
A new, very literal, translation by a student of Seth Benardete. Part of a
very interesting website with photos, artwork and recordings of music.
http://www.losttrails.com/pages/Tales/Inquiries/Herodotus.html

Rawlinson translation of Herodotus at MIT
http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.html

link to Amazon.com listing for Herodotus -- David Grene translation
Amazon.com listing for Grene translation -- with interesting reviews
http://www.amazon.com/History-David-Grene/dp/0226327728/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=U
TF8&s=books&qid=1199101751&sr=8-2

I want to enthusiastically welcome Karen Smith as our leader in a new
reading of the "inquiries" (`istoriai) of Herodotus. At the same time I want
to offer thanks to James Costopoulos for his initiative in requesting me to
create this list, and I would invite him to play an active role in the
discussion once again.

From some private email exchanges with Karen I have found out that, while
she may not be an expert in Herodotus, she has a lot of experience with
leading online discussions, so I am confident that she will be an excellent
discussion leader.

In one of her messages Karen said that she would be using the David Grene
translation and suggested that we begin by reading Grene's introduction. I
have suggested to Karen that, since many of us do not have Grene's
translation at hand and therefore would not be able to read his introduction
right away, it might be better to dive directly into the text and let the
experts who are members of this group supply whatever background information
we need.

Now, Karen, the floor is yours.

Lance Fletcher

Lancelot,



I thought I had stated that in my previous post, and see that my fingers are
not as quick as my mind. :-(

Thank you for stating my omission.



Karen



    _____

From: herodotus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:herodotus@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Lancelot Fletcher
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 10:25 AM
To: herodotus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [herodotus] Grene's Text



Karen,

That's actually a link to the Amazon.com listing for David Grene's
translation. It is not a link to an etext version of Grene's text. To the
best of my knowledge, Grene's translation is not available in etext, however
a number of other translations ARE available in electronic format. I will
post a separate message about that.

Lancelot Fletcher
Herodotus group owner
Writing from Tbilisi

> From: kcsmith38 <HYPERLINK
"mailto:kcsmith36%40comcast.net"kcsmith36@comcast.-net>
> Reply-To: <HYPERLINK
"mailto:herodotus%40yahoogroups.com"herodotus@...>
> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 14:18:35 -0000
> To: <HYPERLINK
"mailto:herodotus%40yahoogroups.com"herodotus@...>
> Subject: [herodotus] Grene's Text
>
> I apologize in advance... for anyone who is interested,lrFletch-er
> provided a link for Grene's translation that is found under "links" on
> our group homepage.
>
> Happy reading to all!
> Karen
>




No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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11:27 AM



No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.12/1203 - Release Date: 12/30/2007
11:27 AM



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Karen,

That's actually a link to the Amazon.com listing for David Grene's
translation. It is not a link to an etext version of Grene's text. To the
best of my knowledge, Grene's translation is not available in etext, however
a number of other translations ARE available in electronic format. I will
post a separate message about that.

Lancelot Fletcher
Herodotus group owner
Writing from Tbilisi


> From: kcsmith38 <kcsmith36@...>
> Reply-To: <herodotus@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 14:18:35 -0000
> To: <herodotus@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [herodotus] Grene's Text
>
> I apologize in advance... for anyone who is interested,lrFletcher
> provided a link for Grene's translation that is found under "links" on
> our group homepage.
>
> Happy reading to all!
> Karen
>

I apologize in advance... for anyone who is interested,lrFletcher
provided a link for Grene's translation that is found under "links" on
our group homepage.

Happy reading to all!
Karen

Hello to everyone and Happy New Year!



Thank you for your confidence and I hope that you will enjoy this reading of
“The History” as I certainly intend to.



I will be using David Grene’s Translation of “The History”.  If you do not
have a copy, by all means use what you have. It might make for some
interesting debates since not all translator’s keep to the Greek carefully,
and many make assumptions based upon their own biases, which I believe is
true with any translation.  If you wish to purchase this translation, the
ISBN is 0226327728.



My thought is to begin working through the Introduction (pgs 1-32) as it
provides Grene’s background and interpretation for Herodotus and his
contemporaries as well as some of the historical, social, religious and
political aspects that form parts of the interpretation set by many others
on Herodotus.  I am sure many of us will disagree with some of the
interpretations; however, I do believe that we will be able to provide each
other with insights otherwise missed if we read this individually.



I am thinking that we could start the discussions with a few “start”
questions and take it from there.  Of course, if there are other questions
or resources anyone would like to include that will enhance that portion we
are reading, please email me directly at HYPERLINK
"mailto:kcsmith36@..."kcsmith36@... .  I will then collate
them and attempt to put them in the order that will best serve our purpose.
So with that being said, perhaps we can begin on January 15th.  If this is
too soon, please let me know and I will be more than happy to change the
date to accommodate the majority of our group’s “home” life.



Karen








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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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11:27 AM



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dimitri

You  may not be aware of the poor translation (in my view) of some
Greek and other measures by De'Selincourt.  He sometimes changes
Greek measures to approximate British imperial measures.  The
symbolic significance of some Greek and Egyptian measures is lost
this way, particularly their Pythagorean links.  Marincola provides a
footnote in this regard but, disappointingly, he does not correct
most, if not all, the British imperial approximations.

Les Greenhill

--- In herodotus@yahoogroups.com, Dimit94844@... wrote:
>
>
>  Karen,
>
> By all means take the lead. I would not know exactly how to begin
this interesting study! I have been begging my local library to find
a copy of De'selincourt decription of the Histories but no luck yet!
I have also been studying ancient greek for 1 year now and can read
small sections of the Histories i.e. the story of Croesus and Solon
in the ancient greek. When can we begin?
>
> Dimitri
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Karen C. Smith <kcsmith36@...>
> To: herodotus@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 8:16 am
> Subject: [herodotus] Re: Starting again?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I am so glad to see a number of you interested in starting again.
Without
>
> making any assumptions, first, I would like to ask if there is
anyone who is
>
> interested in taking the lead, or would you be comfortable in
having this
>
> novice take a crack at it?  :-)
>
>
>
> Karen
>
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.11/1200 - Release Date:
12/27/2007
>
> 1:34 PM
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
__
> More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
http://webmail.aol.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi Karen:

It would be great if you would drive the bus on a Herodotus tour.  I'm very
interested in riding along, though I'll probably be sitting quietly in the
back, as I have little experience reading classics.

Happy New Year,
Ben Ellison
Seattle


**************************************
See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Karen,

By all means take the lead. I would not know exactly how to begin this
interesting study! I have been begging my local library to find a copy of
De'selincourt decription of the Histories but no luck yet! I have also been
studying ancient greek for 1 year now and can read small sections of the
Histories i.e. the story of Croesus and Solon in the ancient greek. When can we
begin?

Dimitri







-----Original Message-----
From: Karen C. Smith <kcsmith36@...>
To: herodotus@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 8:16 am
Subject: [herodotus] Re: Starting again?

























I am so glad to see a number of you interested in starting again.  Without

making any assumptions, first, I would like to ask if there is anyone who is

interested in taking the lead, or would you be comfortable in having this

novice take a crack at it?  :-)



Karen



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Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.11/1200 - Release Date: 12/27/2007

1:34 PM





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





















________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A novice sounds refreshing to me.  You have my support.

Les Greenhill

--- In herodotus@yahoogroups.com, "Karen C. Smith" <kcsmith36@...>
wrote:
>
> I am so glad to see a number of you interested in starting again.
Without
> making any assumptions, first, I would like to ask if there is
anyone who is
> interested in taking the lead, or would you be comfortable in
having this
> novice take a crack at it?  :-)
>
>
>
> Karen
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.11/1200 - Release Date:
12/27/2007
> 1:34 PM
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I am so glad to see a number of you interested in starting again.  Without
making any assumptions, first, I would like to ask if there is anyone who is
interested in taking the lead, or would you be comfortable in having this
novice take a crack at it?  :-)



Karen


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.11/1200 - Release Date: 12/27/2007
1:34 PM



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Count me in too.  (See the abstract below of a work I recently
completed writing.  It outlines my special interests.  Anyone have a
view on Herodotus as a Pythagorean?)

Les Greenhill

ABSTRACT OF "GRAND DESIGN IN ANTIQUITY" Leonardo da Vinci's image of
Vitruvian Man, man the microcosm, is the most famous illustration of
its kind.  Da Vinci's layout of man's body in a square and a circle
is derived from a formulation found in the influential treatise "The
Ten Books on Architecture" written some two thousand years ago by the
Roman architect and engineer Vitruvius.  Vitruvius links the
formulation to older Greek sources, notably the proportions of Doric
columns.  Using Leonardo's illustration, original text and material
from authoritative sources, it is demonstrated that certain critical
design elements in the body's layout can be linked to other
historically significant designs found in Vitruvius's treatise, in
famous works by the Greek philosopher Plato, and in the writings of
Herodotus and other renowned figures in antiquity.  The influence of
Pythagoreanism on the formulations is examined.  The material in this
exposition radically changes notions of design and the nature of
Greek and Roman measures in antiquity.

--- In herodotus@yahoogroups.com, "kcsmith38" <kcsmith36@...> wrote:
>
> I'm curious to know if anyone is interested in a read of
Herodotus'.
> Thank you.
> Karen
>

Please include me, as well.

--- In herodotus@yahoogroups.com, "kcsmith38" <kcsmith36@...> wrote:
>
> I'm curious to know if anyone is interested in a read of Herodotus'.
> Thank you.
> Karen
>

I definitely am interested.

Dimitri



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am................Ben Ellison, Seattle



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm curious to know if anyone is interested in a read of Herodotus'.
Thank you.
Karen

I will apologize I am new to the group and have not seen any activity.
  I find the most recently discussed topic of some interest.  I
unfortunately am not yet able to translate from source material myself.

Here is a question I have, it seems (I rely on other's translations at
the moment) that there are a couple of issues to tackle in accurately
answering this.

1- There seems to be an established history of Greeks baiting the
Persians and playing at a psychological level prior to the battle of
platea.

2- Given the amount of research that Herodotus does in the east, isn't
possible that some of his accounts were from the Persian side, and
wanted to believe that the the mythical Spartans were truly fleeing
from battle at the sight of the Persians?

I can not answer these questions, but being from a tactical background
myself I ask this as they may shed some light.  As far as modern
historians questioning Herodotus, I think many parts, most should be
questioned in a search for an objective accounting of those events.

I know that for instance having a land force of a million troops, is
virtually impossible in the current age of logistics and technology,
sustaining even a force of 100,000 provides very difficult logistical
problems that having that many within ten square miles is cumbersome
on the best days.

So for me reading that the Persian force was in the million plus is
almost laughable, it is just not realistic, and would not be in this
day and age with the logistic capabilities that we have.  To believe
it was feasible then, for me is not realistic.  And on this I do have
a touch of experience.  So because of this there are certainly some
elements of Herodotus I find more realistic and believable than others.

In drawing on my limited knowledge of greek warfare, and the Spartans
intuition for tactics, it would make sense to me that the manuevering
was due to a geographical placement of advantage or disadvantage on
the battlefield.

In looking at the little I know about, the Greeks seem very skilled at
percieving advantages of battlefields, especially with respect to
their engagements of the Persians, whether it be marathon, salamis,
gaugemela, or thermopylae.

To me I find that tantalizing their continued adaptation to interpret
battle with the Persians.  Wha we have as far as accounts seems to
testify their combination of tactical skill and understanding with the
overall strategic planning and comprehension of unit types and
employm,ents in battle.

Dan P

--- In herodotus@yahoogroups.com, Kalev Pehme <borgianvirtue@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Sidney Keith and Darius:
>
> I think the problem with the story is really about what is
Herodotos's point of bringing it up in the first place. It seems to me
to that the apparent examination of the Spartan sense of honor and
courage is superceded by something else. Note the statement,
especially the emphasis I have added, with respect to the Athenian
attiitude towards the Spartans: "_Knowing that it was the Spartan
temper to say one thing and do another_, they remained quiet in their
station until the army began to retreat, when they dispatched a
horseman to see whether the Spartans meant to set forth, or whether
after all they had no intention of moving."
>
> That "knowing that it was the Spartan temper to say one thing and do
another" means that the Spartans are inherently duplicitous. Hence, I
believe, that Herodotos himself points to the fact that the
quarrelsome Spartans were saying one thing and doing another. Perhaps,
then, the whole thing is a fake in Herodotos's own view.
>
> I hope, Sidney, that you and your family are doing well.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Kalev Pehme
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Sidney Keith <sidkeith@...>
> To: herodotus@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 10:11:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [herodotus] Herodotus on Pausanias' withdrawal at Plataea
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Jahan Navidi <darius360@...>
> To: herodotus@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 5:30:50 AM
> Subject: [herodotus] Herodotus on Pausanias' withdrawal at Plataea
>
> Hello all. I am doing a major research task on Herodotus. I will be
> focusing on his account of Pausanias' "withdrawal" of Greek forces at
> Platea. I'm sure you're all familiar with this. For those who are not,
> Herodotus claimed that Pausanias decided the withdrawal out of fear of
> the Persian numbers and the Greeks' bad position. According to him, an
> argument broke out between Amompharetus (General) and Pausanias, which
> resulted in Amompharetus withdrawing very late. Nevertheless, the
> Persians chased after the "fleeing" Greeks. This resulted in the
> Battle of Plataea.
>
> However, some historians, such as Peter Green, Ehrenberg, Hammond etc
> have questioned Herodotus' account on this "withdrawal" . They have
> claimed that it was actually planned by Pausanias to lure the Persians
> from favourable ground for their cavalry, to rocky ground, where their
> cavalry would be at a disadvantage. Amompharetus was used to lure the
> Persians to the rocky ground. The Greeks intended for the Persians to
> follow them (similar feint tactic, like at Salamis).
>
> In my project, i will analyse how modern historians can question
> Herodotus' account given the fact that the is our main, primary source
> for the Persian Wars. Are they in a postion to dismiss the "father" of
> history? Why can they dismiss his account of the withdrawal, and not
> other aspects of his work? Are they basing their ideas on the Greek
> tactics at places like Salamis?
>
> It would be great to get your ideas on this issue. I hope this makes
> sense....
>
> Cheers
>
> Darius
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> This is one of the  lists sponsored by The Free Lance Academy, home of
> Slow Reading:  http://www.freelance-academy.org  To unsubscribe by
> e-mail, mailto:herodotus-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
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>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Dear Sidney Keith and Darius:

I think the problem with the story is really about what is Herodotos's point of
bringing it up in the first place. It seems to me to that the apparent
examination of the Spartan sense of honor and courage is superceded by something
else. Note the statement, especially the emphasis I have added, with respect to
the Athenian attiitude towards the Spartans: "_Knowing that it was the Spartan
temper to say one thing and do another_, they remained quiet in their station
until the army began to retreat, when they dispatched a horseman to see whether
the Spartans meant to set forth, or whether after all they had no intention of
moving."

That "knowing that it was the Spartan temper to say one thing and do another"
means that the Spartans are inherently duplicitous. Hence, I believe, that
Herodotos himself points to the fact that the quarrelsome Spartans were saying
one thing and doing another. Perhaps, then, the whole thing is a fake in
Herodotos's own view.

I hope, Sidney, that you and your family are doing well.

Best regards,

Kalev Pehme






----- Original Message ----
From: Sidney Keith <sidkeith@...>
To: herodotus@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 10:11:32 PM
Subject: Re: [herodotus] Herodotus on Pausanias' withdrawal at Plataea


----- Original Message ----
From: Jahan Navidi <darius360@...>
To: herodotus@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 5:30:50 AM
Subject: [herodotus] Herodotus on Pausanias' withdrawal at Plataea

Hello all. I am doing a major research task on Herodotus. I will be
focusing on his account of Pausanias' "withdrawal" of Greek forces at
Platea. I'm sure you're all familiar with this. For those who are not,
Herodotus claimed that Pausanias decided the withdrawal out of fear of
the Persian numbers and the Greeks' bad position. According to him, an
argument broke out between Amompharetus (General) and Pausanias, which
resulted in Amompharetus withdrawing very late. Nevertheless, the
Persians chased after the "fleeing" Greeks. This resulted in the
Battle of Plataea.

However, some historians, such as Peter Green, Ehrenberg, Hammond etc
have questioned Herodotus' account on this "withdrawal" . They have
claimed that it was actually planned by Pausanias to lure the Persians
from favourable ground for their cavalry, to rocky ground, where their
cavalry would be at a disadvantage. Amompharetus was used to lure the
Persians to the rocky ground. The Greeks intended for the Persians to
follow them (similar feint tactic, like at Salamis).

In my project, i will analyse how modern historians can question
Herodotus' account given the fact that the is our main, primary source
for the Persian Wars. Are they in a postion to dismiss the "father" of
history? Why can they dismiss his account of the withdrawal, and not
other aspects of his work? Are they basing their ideas on the Greek
tactics at places like Salamis?

It would be great to get your ideas on this issue. I hope this makes
sense....

Cheers

Darius




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



This is one of the  lists sponsored by The Free Lance Academy, home of
Slow Reading:  http://www.freelance-academy.org  To unsubscribe by
e-mail, mailto:herodotus-unsubscribe@onelist.com

Yahoo! Groups Links



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message ----
From: Jahan Navidi <darius360@...>
To: herodotus@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 5:30:50 AM
Subject: [herodotus] Herodotus on Pausanias' withdrawal at Plataea

Hello all. I am doing a major research task on Herodotus. I will be
focusing on his account of Pausanias' "withdrawal" of Greek forces at
Platea. I'm sure you're all familiar with this. For those who are not,
Herodotus claimed that Pausanias decided the withdrawal out of fear of
the Persian numbers and the Greeks' bad position. According to him, an
argument broke out between Amompharetus (General) and Pausanias, which
resulted in Amompharetus withdrawing very late. Nevertheless, the
Persians chased after the "fleeing" Greeks. This resulted in the
Battle of Plataea.

However, some historians, such as Peter Green, Ehrenberg, Hammond etc
have questioned Herodotus' account on this "withdrawal" . They have
claimed that it was actually planned by Pausanias to lure the Persians
from favourable ground for their cavalry, to rocky ground, where their
cavalry would be at a disadvantage. Amompharetus was used to lure the
Persians to the rocky ground. The Greeks intended for the Persians to
follow them (similar feint tactic, like at Salamis).

In my project, i will analyse how modern historians can question
Herodotus' account given the fact that the is our main, primary source
for the Persian Wars. Are they in a postion to dismiss the "father" of
history? Why can they dismiss his account of the withdrawal, and not
other aspects of his work? Are they basing their ideas on the Greek
tactics at places like Salamis?

It would be great to get your ideas on this issue. I hope this makes
sense....

Cheers

Darius




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello all. I am doing a major research task on Herodotus. I will be
focusing on his account of Pausanias' "withdrawal" of Greek forces at
Platea. I'm sure you're all familiar with this. For those who are not,
Herodotus claimed that Pausanias decided the withdrawal out of fear of
the Persian numbers and the Greeks' bad position. According to him, an
argument broke out between Amompharetus (General) and Pausanias, which
resulted in Amompharetus withdrawing very late. Nevertheless, the
Persians chased after the "fleeing" Greeks. This resulted in the
Battle of Plataea.

However, some historians, such as Peter Green, Ehrenberg, Hammond etc
have questioned Herodotus' account on this "withdrawal". They have
claimed that it was actually planned by Pausanias to lure the Persians
from favourable ground for their cavalry, to rocky ground, where their
cavalry would be at a disadvantage. Amompharetus was used to lure the
Persians to the rocky ground. The Greeks intended for the Persians to
follow them (similar feint tactic, like at Salamis).

In my project, i will analyse how modern historians can question
Herodotus' account given the fact that the is our main, primary source
for the Persian Wars. Are they in a postion to dismiss the "father" of
history? Why can they dismiss his account of the withdrawal, and not
other aspects of his work? Are they basing their ideas on the Greek
tactics at places like Salamis?

It would be great to get your ideas on this issue. I hope this makes
sense....

Cheers

Darius

What is the FGrH? Also, where do I find information on Bisutun?

thanks,
Dimitri


-----Original Message-----
From: adurus@...
To: herodotus@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 2:03 AM
Subject: RE: [herodotus] Herodotus: Bias or Truth


Dariusz,

Check the FGrH. It is also in electronic version now. About Persian sources
known in Greece it would be very fruitful to compare Herodotus, Ctesias,
Aeschylus (Persians) and inscription from Bisutun.

Regards

Alfred <http://twardecki.mnw.art.pl/>

-----Original Message-----
From: herodotus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:herodotus@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Dimit94844@...
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 2:31 PM
To: herodotus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [herodotus] Herodotus: Bias or Truth

Alfred,

What exactly is the name of the work you are suggesting with Ctesias mainly
preserved in Diodorus and Photius? I would love to read that.

-----Original Message-----
From: adurus@.... <mailto:adurus%40mnw.art.pl> pl
To: herodotus@yahoogrou <mailto:herodotus%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
Sent: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 5:49 AM
Subject: RE: [herodotus] Herodotus: Bias or Truth

Robert proposal is very correct. You should tell first what you know.

There were of course Persian sources and of very different kind. Some you
will find it in Herodotus text itself if you analyse his accounts about
Persia (and Persians). There are also Greek inscriptions with official
Persian documents and of course Ctesias mainly preserved in Diodorus and
Photius. It is very useful to read it with good commentary.

The problem in question is a part of wider discussion about eastern sources
in Greek historiography and literature. I would like suggest small
bibliographical research about it.

Regards

Alfred <http://twardecki. <http://twardecki.mnw.art.pl/> mnw.art.pl/>
Twardecki

-----Original Message-----
From: herodotus@yahoogrou <mailto:herodotus%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
[mailto:herodotus@yahoogrou <mailto:herodotus%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] On
Behalf
Of darius360
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 12:44 PM
To: herodotus@yahoogrou <mailto:herodotus%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
Subject: [herodotus] Herodotus: Bias or Truth

Hello all. I am a student undertaking a major project relating to The
Persian Wars, and how the lack of Persian sources and Herodotus'
baises have shaped our perception of the period. It would be great if
some people could give their professional, knowledgable opinions on
the topic.

Sincerely

Darius

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

__________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security
tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web,
free AOL Mail and more.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



________________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dariusz,



Check the FGrH. It is also in electronic version now. About Persian sources
known in Greece it would be very fruitful to compare Herodotus, Ctesias,
Aeschylus (Persians) and inscription from Bisutun.



Regards



Alfred <http://twardecki.mnw.art.pl/>





-----Original Message-----
From: herodotus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:herodotus@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Dimit94844@...
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 2:31 PM
To: herodotus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [herodotus] Herodotus: Bias or Truth



Alfred,

What exactly is the name of the work you are suggesting with Ctesias mainly
preserved in Diodorus and Photius? I would love to read that.


-----Original Message-----
From: adurus@.... <mailto:adurus%40mnw.art.pl> pl
To: herodotus@yahoogrou <mailto:herodotus%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
Sent: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 5:49 AM
Subject: RE: [herodotus] Herodotus: Bias or Truth

Robert proposal is very correct. You should tell first what you know.

There were of course Persian sources and of very different kind. Some you
will find it in Herodotus text itself if you analyse his accounts about
Persia (and Persians). There are also Greek inscriptions with official
Persian documents and of course Ctesias mainly preserved in Diodorus and
Photius. It is very useful to read it with good commentary.

The problem in question is a part of wider discussion about eastern sources
in Greek historiography and literature. I would like suggest small
bibliographical research about it.

Regards

Alfred <http://twardecki. <http://twardecki.mnw.art.pl/> mnw.art.pl/>
Twardecki

-----Original Message-----
From: herodotus@yahoogrou <mailto:herodotus%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
[mailto:herodotus@yahoogrou <mailto:herodotus%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] On
Behalf
Of darius360
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 12:44 PM
To: herodotus@yahoogrou <mailto:herodotus%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
Subject: [herodotus] Herodotus: Bias or Truth

Hello all. I am a student undertaking a major project relating to The
Persian Wars, and how the lack of Persian sources and Herodotus'
baises have shaped our perception of the period. It would be great if
some people could give their professional, knowledgable opinions on
the topic.

Sincerely

Darius

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

__________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security
tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web,
free AOL Mail and more.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alfred,

What exactly is the name of the work you are suggesting with Ctesias mainly
preserved in Diodorus and Photius? I would love to read that.


-----Original Message-----
From: adurus@...
To: herodotus@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 5:49 AM
Subject: RE: [herodotus] Herodotus: Bias or Truth


Robert proposal is very correct. You should tell first what you know.

There were of course Persian sources and of very different kind. Some you
will find it in Herodotus text itself if you analyse his accounts about
Persia (and Persians). There are also Greek inscriptions with official
Persian documents and of course Ctesias mainly preserved in Diodorus and
Photius. It is very useful to read it with good commentary.

The problem in question is a part of wider discussion about eastern sources
in Greek historiography and literature. I would like suggest small
bibliographical research about it.

Regards

Alfred <http://twardecki.mnw.art.pl/> Twardecki

-----Original Message-----
From: herodotus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:herodotus@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of darius360
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 12:44 PM
To: herodotus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [herodotus] Herodotus: Bias or Truth

Hello all. I am a student undertaking a major project relating to The
Persian Wars, and how the lack of Persian sources and Herodotus'
baises have shaped our perception of the period. It would be great if
some people could give their professional, knowledgable opinions on
the topic.

Sincerely

Darius

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and security
tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free
AOL Mail and more.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]