Correct Amy<G>!!!

don`t leave the CREATOR out of the creation!!!

--- On Fri, 8/1/08, Amy Bailey <rosecentaur@...> wrote:
From: Amy Bailey <rosecentaur@...>
Subject: Re: [Hammock Camping] Pictures of the freestanding support?
To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 10:49 AM

The dead man = fertilizer.

           ---Amy

On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Tom Frazier <wildewudu@...>
wrote:

>   Eh?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: tim garner
> To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
<hammockcamping%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 6:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [Hammock Camping] Pictures of the freestanding support?
>
> don`t leave the CREATOR out of the creation!!!
>
> --- On Tue, 7/29/08, Ralph Oborn
<Ralph.oborn@...<Ralph.oborn%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> Carey,
> Does he have to be dead?
> Would just stunned work?
> Do you bring someone along or hope to find somebody at the camp?
> Do you dig him back up for "leave no trace"?
>
> Is this a little risky in bear country?
>
> Can you reuse the body at multiple camps or do you have to bring along one
> for each camp?
>
> :]
>
> Ralph
>
> It's actualy good for the soil, so there's no need to dig him
up<G>
> ...just gets hard to find more for each camp site<G>.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.5.7/1581 - Release Date: 7/30/2008
> 6:56 AM
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

All I saw was "don't leave the CREATOR out of the creation!!!" on top of all the
talk about killing a man..yeah, I know what you folks meant by "dead-man"; it's
a pun. :oP That wasn't the source of my confusion! ;o) It was talk of dead-men
and "CREATOR" all of a sudden.





   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Amy Bailey
   To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 7:49 AM
   Subject: Re: [Hammock Camping] Pictures of the freestanding support?


   The dead man = fertilizer.

   ---Amy

   On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Tom Frazier <wildewudu@...> wrote:

   > Eh?
   >
   >
   > ----- Original Message -----
   > From: tim garner
   > To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com <hammockcamping%40yahoogroups.com>
   > Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 6:54 PM
   > Subject: Re: [Hammock Camping] Pictures of the freestanding support?
   >
   > don`t leave the CREATOR out of the creation!!!
   >
   > --- On Tue, 7/29/08, Ralph Oborn
<Ralph.oborn@...<Ralph.oborn%40gmail.com>>
   > wrote:
   >
   > Carey,
   > Does he have to be dead?
   > Would just stunned work?
   > Do you bring someone along or hope to find somebody at the camp?
   > Do you dig him back up for "leave no trace"?
   >
   > Is this a little risky in bear country?
   >
   > Can you reuse the body at multiple camps or do you have to bring along one
   > for each camp?
   >
   > :]
   >
   > Ralph
   >
   > It's actualy good for the soil, so there's no need to dig him up<G>
   > ...just gets hard to find more for each camp site<G>.
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >
   > ----------------------------------------------------------
   >
   > No virus found in this incoming message.
   > Checked by AVG.
   > Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.5.7/1581 - Release Date: 7/30/2008
   > 6:56 AM
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >
   >
   >

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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   No virus found in this incoming message.
   Checked by AVG.
   Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.5.10/1585 - Release Date: 8/1/2008 6:39
AM


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sorry for the confusion. I had said...
"It's actually good for the soil, so there's no need to dig him
up<G>
   > ...just gets hard to find more for each camp site<G>."
  I know... bad pun<G>. Just kidding<G>.
But I smelled one hiker that would probably fertilize the soil just by
standing there<G>. But I wouldn't be able to sleep for the smell!!!

don`t leave the CREATOR out of the creation!!!

--- On Sat, 8/2/08, Tom Frazier <wildewudu@...> wrote:
From: Tom Frazier <wildewudu@...>
Subject: Re: [Hammock Camping] Pictures of the freestanding support?
To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, August 2, 2008, 1:04 AM

All I saw was "don't leave the CREATOR out of the creation!!!" on
top of all the talk about killing a man..yeah, I know what you folks meant by
"dead-man"; it's a pun. :oP That wasn't the source of my
confusion! ;o) It was talk of dead-men and "CREATOR" all of a sudden.





   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Amy Bailey
   To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 7:49 AM
   Subject: Re: [Hammock Camping] Pictures of the freestanding support?


   The dead man = fertilizer.

   ---Amy

   On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Tom Frazier <wildewudu@...>
wrote:

   > Eh?
   >
   >
   > ----- Original Message -----
   > From: tim garner
   > To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
<hammockcamping%40yahoogroups.com>
   > Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 6:54 PM
   > Subject: Re: [Hammock Camping] Pictures of the freestanding support?
   >
   > don`t leave the CREATOR out of the creation!!!
   >
   > --- On Tue, 7/29/08, Ralph Oborn
<Ralph.oborn@...<Ralph.oborn%40gmail.com>>
   > wrote:
   >
   > Carey,
   > Does he have to be dead?
   > Would just stunned work?
   > Do you bring someone along or hope to find somebody at the camp?
   > Do you dig him back up for "leave no trace"?
   >
   > Is this a little risky in bear country?
   >
   > Can you reuse the body at multiple camps or do you have to bring along
one
   > for each camp?
   >
   > :]
   >
   > Ralph
   >
   > It's actualy good for the soil, so there's no need to dig him
up<G>
   > ...just gets hard to find more for each camp site<G>.
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >
   > ----------------------------------------------------------
   >
   > No virus found in this incoming message.
   > Checked by AVG.
   > Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.5.7/1581 - Release Date:
7/30/2008
   > 6:56 AM
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >
   >
   >

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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   Checked by AVG.
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6:39 AM


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------------------

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Amy said....

  "The dead man = fertilizer."  .....OR...

Compost happens.  It's best to practice LNT....but if you must leave a body,
best it is put  to good use. J

Rosie/mdhiker







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Looking through a sailing catalog, I came across this piece of
hardware.  It looks like it would work on a hammock line -

http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d273000/e270515.asp

I would be wary -- the catalog did not give any load ratings for these
cleats.  I don't think I'd trust them to hold my weight,  plus the
extra leverage imposed by the hammock.  Also, cleats like these tend
to abrade the lines, shortening their lives.  And they don't make the
most secure connections, and thus could let you down suddenly in the
middle of the night.  I'd look to climbing hardware, rather than
sailing gadets, for hammock use.

John
On Aug 3, 2008, at 20:58 , Greg Welker wrote:

> Looking through a sailing catalog, I came across this piece of
> hardware. It looks like it would work on a hammock line -
>
> http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d273000/e270515.asp
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm a sailor and use things like this.  I agree with John in that these
vang cleats can abrade rope.  Also, they are not meant to hold that sort
of weight.  For that location on the boom of a sailboat, there just are
not that many forces pulling on it.  It's not like the sail is going to
rip off the boom or is pulling towards the mast.  The main purpose of
the vang cleat there is to tighten up the sail to improve performance.

Elsewhere in a boat are heavier cleats to hold sheets for jibs and mast.
   The forces pulling on the main sheet (the rope that controls the main
sail) can be considerable.  There are other gizmos involved to help hold
the sheet.  Almost always, there's a hand nearby to catch it, too.  I've
seen ropes slip in them--so they need monitoring.  The purpose of these
cleats is to help keep the sailor from getting worn out holding the rope.

So, yes, it will hold line, but probably not that consistently or
reliably.  For sleeping in a hammock, we require consistence and
reliability.  Besides, living here in Taiwan, I'd have a really hard
time replacing abraded spectra, but tree-hugger-like webbing is
available all over the place.

CL

I have tied bowline and an alpine butterfly knots in my Hennessey
Hammock spectra so I could use other ways of tying my hammock than the
Hennessey Wrap.  The Wrap was tedious and was causing some wear and tear
on the tree huggers.

Well, both knots were almost impossible to untie, taking 15-30 minutes
each (no teeth, no marlinespikes).  The alpine butterfly was a little
easier.  So, after tying these knots, using them, and seeing how hard
they are to untie and what they can do to the line (shiny compressed
sections), I've decided that the Hennessey Wrap probably is the best way
to go if you want to take care of your spectra.  It is also the
lightest, because it does not require any extra hardware.

I've not yet tested the Wrap on a system with a carabiner between the
tree huggers and the spectra, but expect it will work the same, provide
a drip-line, and prevent wear and tear on both huggers and spectra.

CL
who admits that tree huggers will be a whole lot easier to replace than
spectra.

- probably too small
  - what would you bolt it to?
  - bear in mind that the horizontal forces on a hammock line can be
several times the actual weight of the person suspended in it.
bill keiser

> Looking through a sailing catalog, I came across this piece of
> hardware.  It looks like it would work on a hammock line -
>
> http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d273000/e270515.asp
>

I was thinking that he had tying it to tree huggers or to the hammock
line itself...

CL

Bill Keiser wrote:
>  - probably too small
>  - what would you bolt it to?
>  - bear in mind that the horizontal forces on a hammock line can be
> several times the actual weight of the person suspended in it.
> bill keiser
>
>> Looking through a sailing catalog, I came across this piece of
>> hardware.  It looks like it would work on a hammock line -
>>
>> http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d273000/e270515.asp

--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Cara Lin Bridgman
<cara.lin@...> wrote:
>
> I have tied bowline and an alpine butterfly knots in my Hennessey
> Hammock spectra so I could use other ways of tying my hammock than the
> Hennessey Wrap.  The Wrap was tedious and was causing some wear and
tear
> on the tree huggers.
>
> Well, both knots were almost impossible to untie, taking 15-30 minutes
> each (no teeth, no marlinespikes).  The alpine butterfly was a little
> easier.  So, after tying these knots, using them, and seeing how hard
> they are to untie and what they can do to the line (shiny compressed
> sections), I've decided that the Hennessey Wrap probably is the best
way
> to go if you want to take care of your spectra.  It is also the
> lightest, because it does not require any extra hardware.
>
> I've not yet tested the Wrap on a system with a carabiner between the
> tree huggers and the spectra, but expect it will work the same, provide
> a drip-line, and prevent wear and tear on both huggers and spectra.
>
> CL
> who admits that tree huggers will be a whole lot easier to replace than
> spectra.
>

Cara,

Back when I used a HH I recall having the same experience with
slippery bowlines.  Recently I have looked at some of the Spyderline
cord, the 2.8 mm and the 3.8 mm.  What I noticed 'this time' with this
line, especially the smaller line, was that how easily it releases
from a slippery bowline depends on how I finish the bowline.  You have
a choice of putting the quick release loop inside of outside the line
you initially put through the loop you form... if that makes any
sense.  When I put it outside, it is more difficult to release than
when I put it inside... it can be a big difference.

Of course how well webbing or rope holds and releases with any knot is
a function of the particular materials involved.

Dave

Hi Dave,

With that Hennessey Spectra, slippery bowline would be about as
difficult to untie as an ordinary bowline.  That spectra can really bind
tight.  The things about bowlines and alpine butterflies, is that
they're supposed to have the quick releases.  With most knots, they do.
   With that spectra, they were about as bad to untie as a granny knot.

I was using these knots to put semi-permanent loops in the spectra for
leverage when tying off--sort of like a trucker's hitch.  I ran the line
from hammock through a biner (looped through tree huggers) back through
the bowline or alpine butterfly loop back through the biner and then
tied a taunt-line hitch.  Once tied, it was easy to adjust.  I still
have to re-tie the taunt-line hitch at every camp, because of
differences in tree distances.  So, I've decided the Hennessey Wrap ends
up taking about as much time.

CL

Dave Womble wrote:
> Cara,
>
> Back when I used a HH I recall having the same experience with
> slippery bowlines.  Recently I have looked at some of the Spyderline
> cord, the 2.8 mm and the 3.8 mm.  What I noticed 'this time' with this
> line, especially the smaller line, was that how easily it releases
> from a slippery bowline depends on how I finish the bowline.  You have
> a choice of putting the quick release loop inside of outside the line
> you initially put through the loop you form... if that makes any
> sense.  When I put it outside, it is more difficult to release than
> when I put it inside... it can be a big difference.
>
> Of course how well webbing or rope holds and releases with any knot is
> a function of the particular materials involved.

And often not exactly horizontal. ;o)



   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Bill Keiser
   To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 7:06 AM
   Subject: [Hammock Camping] Re: would this work to hold line?


   - probably too small
   - what would you bolt it to?
   - bear in mind that the horizontal forces on a hammock line can be
   several times the actual weight of the person suspended in it.
   bill keiser

   > Looking through a sailing catalog, I came across this piece of
   > hardware. It looks like it would work on a hammock line -
   >
   > http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d273000/e270515.asp
   >






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AM


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cara,

I understand what you are saying and have had the same experiences
with certain ropes.  What I am trying to point out is that with a
slippery bowline, I have noticed that a minor detail in how you insert
the last piece of rope into the loop can play a huge part in how
difficult it is to release.

Whether that little detail has anything to do with what you are doing
and if it does, whether it is enough help, is another matter.  It
seemed to make that type of difference for the small diameter
spyderline I currently have for the few times I have played with it.

A slippery bowline by itself should be all you need to finish off a
hammock suspension line unless you are trying to tie it off taut and
is reasonable to tie and release when it works right.  Whether it
works right is a function of several things.  The materials involved
AND how you insert that last piece of rope in the loop are a couple of
those things.  If you are trying to tie off a hammock suspension line
taut, I would suggest you consider tying it off higher on the trees so
you don't have to do that.  I think tying off higher with some some
initial sag is best approach when the distance between trees isn't too
large to prevent it.  There is less stress on everything that way and
you get less stretch when you get into your hammock as well.

When we hang a hammock, the first thing to determine is the span, or
the distance between trees.  Once we do that we decided how high to
tie off the hammock.  My suggestion for most hammocks is to tie off
shoulder high for spans of 12 feet, head high for spans of 15 feet,
and as high as you can reach for spans of 18 feet or more.  When you
do that you should have some sag in the hammock suspension so the
hammock itself drops to a usable distance above the terrain.  With sag
in the suspension line you don't need a trucker's hitch to pull the
suspension line taut and the slippery bowline will work by itself.

Dave

Hi Dave,

If I tied and retied the bowline or alpine butterfly with each use on
each trip, they would probably come undone without too much cussing.
Tying the knot in spectra, leaving it there on a 'permanent' basis, and
sleeping in the hammock for a week or more will result in quick release
knots tightening into non-quick release knots.  Both the bowline and
alpine butterfly were a pain to undo, but the alpine butterfly was
definitely easier.

As for how I hang my hammocks--I do not use a truckers hitch to tension
the line, but to adjust head vs foot heights.  I like my hammocks loose
and floppy and have always like them loose and floppy (since 1980,
anyway).  Even my Hennessey is usually hung loose and floppy (at a
guess, with 20-30* angles)--the ridge line is not that tight and things
hung from the ridge line can cause considerable sag.  This method of
hanging a Hennessey is almost loose and floppy enough to negate the
value of a ridgeline (i.e., as long as it keeps the netting out of my
face...)  Why do I do hang it this way?  It is so much more comfortable
and I have so many more options on how to sleep in it (sometimes even on
the wrong diagonal).  Naturally, this sort of loose and floppy results
in less stress on everything, but ropes will still bind--especially
spectra, as I am finding out.

I have only been reporting my personal experience in the matter and my
personal preferences for hanging.  As a result of my experience and
preferences, I've decided not to put knots in my spectra and to return
to a Hennessey Wrap.  I also decided to post my experience because I
thought it might help other hammockers with their knotting choices.

As for me, I've a 10-day hiking trip coming up in which to find out how
I feel about the Hennessey Wrap (this will also be the first real trial
of hammocking on Taiwan's trails).  In other words, I suspect that when
I first got my Hennessey, I was too quick to give up on the Hennessey
Wrap, switching to knots I know and have experience with.  Frankly,
Spectra is the absolute first type of rope I've bumped into that gives
me a hard time releasing over-tightened quick-release knots (second
hardest is any sort of bungie).

Some of it is this: you have to be here and you have to be playing with
the Hennessey spectra before you'll really understand the problems.

CL

Cara when I got my Hennessy with tree huggers the most obvious wear point
(with potential failure) was the loop ends of the tree huggers. I was also
concerned about how short they were, and about getting pine gum on them.
( I camp in the pine forests of Idaho (USA)).

So I made my own! from some long strapping. I used a water knot to make a
large loop (3 meters or 10 foot long) so when I tie up I'm on a different
part of the loop every time (no single wear point for fraying).  I can make
longer loops for bigger trees, or wrap two (or three) times around smaller
trees. And if a strap gets to gummy if becomes disposable.

I got a big coil of strap (2 inch) from an Army-Navy store, but motorcycle
tie down straps or tow straps could also be used.


We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. (Ben
Franklin)   :]

Ralph


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey Ralph,

I have been having good luck with just taking my tree straps (Wal-mart
webbing) and wrapping them around the tree, with the rope from the hammock
underneath the wraps (just letting it hang there while I do the wraps) and
then tie the ends of the webbing together with a square knot (there is no
stress at all on this knot with multiple wraps of the webbing).  I do the
same on the other end.  Then I take the loose end of the rope (I just use
cheap 3/8", yellow, polypropylene, hollow-braid rope) and tie an Adjustable
Grip Hitch onto the standing part.  I adjust the knot to where I want it on
both ends of the hammock and I'm done.  It's easy, the tree straps don't
have to be special and it's all very easy to adjust after setting it up.  I
"slip" the Adjustable Grip Hitch for quick release; and it never binds.

Doug Campbell


On 8/5/08, Ralph Oborn <Ralph.oborn@...> wrote:
>
>   Cara when I got my Hennessy with tree huggers the most obvious wear
> point
> (with potential failure) was the loop ends of the tree huggers. I was also
> concerned about how short they were, and about getting pine gum on them.
> ( I camp in the pine forests of Idaho (USA)).
>
> So I made my own! from some long strapping. I used a water knot to make a
> large loop (3 meters or 10 foot long) so when I tie up I'm on a different
> part of the loop every time (no single wear point for fraying). I can make
> longer loops for bigger trees, or wrap two (or three) times around smaller
> trees. And if a strap gets to gummy if becomes disposable.
>
> I got a big coil of strap (2 inch) from an Army-Navy store, but motorcycle
> tie down straps or tow straps could also be used.
>
> We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. (Ben
> Franklin) :]
>
> Ralph
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Ralph,

I remember reading about your water knot and webbing solution a year or
so ago.  It's a great idea but it can add weight (especially if I use
climbing webbing).  I'd like to use 2-inch width, too.  It will mainly
have to depend on what I can find in Taiwan's hiking and hardware stores.

Most of the fraying on my huggers (because it showed up during the first
2-3 times of setting up my hammock in my yard) probably had to do with
the way I was trying to tie the Hennessey Wrap.  I was poking the line
through the huggers with each wrap.  Pictures posted at Shane's Place
with No Name and Sgt.Rock's site helped enormously.

Since I started using biners, I've not noticed any increase in wear on
the tree hugger loops.  When these tree huggers start looking on the sad
side, I will going to have to come up with something and your solution
is the easiest (even before I read your solution, I used the same method
to rig permanent huggers around the steel poles in my carport).

New huggers will have to be longer, too, because Taiwan trees tend to be
bigger (DBH 30-1500 cm) than the ones tree huggers are designed for (DBH
10 cm).  I'm almost never able to wrap a tree hugger around the tree a
time or two.  Usually, I'm feeding one end of the hugger through another
and clipping the hammock onto the loose end.

CL

Ralph Oborn wrote:
> So I made my own! from some long strapping. I used a water knot to make a
> large loop (3 meters or 10 foot long) so when I tie up I'm on a different
> part of the loop every time (no single wear point for fraying).  I can make
> longer loops for bigger trees, or wrap two (or three) times around smaller
> trees. And if a strap gets to gummy if becomes disposable.

For almost the same price, you can get a pair of straps from JRB with their
new AL tri-glides.  I used them with a pair of lightweight climbing
carabiners to hang my HH in the Poconos a few weeks ago.

http://www.jacksrbetter.com/index_files/Hammock%20Strap%20Set.htm

I didn't do it the way they pictured it, I used the carabiners to secure the
strap around the tree, and made a strap loop with the tri-glide that the
HH's original lashing line was looped through.  Once it's up, you can adjust
length pretty easily through the tri-glide.

             ---Amy


On 8/5/08, Tom Frazier <wildewudu@...> wrote:
>
>   And often not exactly horizontal. ;o)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bill Keiser
> To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com <hammockcamping%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 7:06 AM
> Subject: [Hammock Camping] Re: would this work to hold line?
>
> - probably too small
> - what would you bolt it to?
> - bear in mind that the horizontal forces on a hammock line can be
> several times the actual weight of the person suspended in it.
> bill keiser
>
> > Looking through a sailing catalog, I came across this piece of
> > hardware. It looks like it would work on a hammock line -
> >
> > http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d273000/e270515.asp
> >
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.5.12/1590 - Release Date: 8/4/2008
> 8:09 AM
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

i don't understand, what is the matter with using a knot?
  a few years ago i went to a boat show. one of the booths there had a
buxom young lady promoting their product, a nylon device that fastened
two ropes together. basically it was a plastic split bolt like they
use for electrical cable.
  she fashionably demonstrated how it worked by inserting two ropes
into the slot and tightening the nut. when i asked her how that was
better than using a knot, the demonstration kind of came to an awkward
pause. she suggested that some people don't know how to tie knots. i
suggested that people like that have no business on a boat. she was
very nice and gave me a free sample. i have it around here somewhere.
i hope i can find it on a cold rainy night on the deck of a boat when
i need to fasten two ropes together.
bk

> Looking through a sailing catalog, I came across this piece of
> hardware. It looks like it would work on a hammock line -
>
> http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d273000/e270515.asp

> For almost the same price, you can get a pair of straps from JRB
> with their new AL tri-glides.  I used them with a pair of
> lightweight climbing
> carabiners to hang my HH in the Poconos a few weeks ago.

> <http://www.jacksrbetter.com/index_files/Hammock%20Strap%20Set.htm>

I know people who cannot even open a jar of spaghetti.  Heaven forbid
hammocking should discriminate against the knot-handicapped.

Some people just can't do knots.  So, we've lots of devices to help them
out.

Even for the knot-handy, these devices can be really convenient.

Think about all the velcro closures on shoes.

Think about the JRB quilts.  They're attached to bungies with a biner.
Knots would work just as well and save 6 g (0.2 oz) per biner.

Think about the Hennessey hammocks.  The tarp comes with plastic loops
on each corner that can hook into the hook attached to the spectra with
a prussik knot.  Attaching the tarp to the hammock spectra with a
taunt-line hitch would work just as well, would be lots lighter, and
wouldn't take that much more time.

As for special do-whichies as knot substitutes, I've lost some good
shackles to the mud on the bottom of the lake.  At least rope and string
floats long enough to pick up out of the water.

CL


Bill Keiser wrote:
>  i don't understand, what is the matter with using a knot?

Nothing! I think people just have this concept that knots are hard to tie
and harder to untie. Which can be true if you don't choose the right knot
for the purpose, and the line you are tying it in. The spectra stuff is
interesting, because some of it doesn't want to take a sharp bend that some
knots require to cinch tight. That said, there are knots that will work.

I'd say if you learn a bowline, tautline or midshipman's hitch, rolling or
timber hitch, and a butterfly knot you're good on line.

Knots in to be tied in webbing are different than knots for braided line.
The webbing likes to be kept flat(ish) if you want to untie it. A water knot
is a simple and useful knot for webbing.

That should get a backpacker thru most of what they would encounter. But if
one gets interested in the study of knots, there's all kinds of things that
can be done, like fashion a rescue harness our of one of your tree huggers
for example.

Remember - if you can't tie a good knot, tie plenty of them!!

   -----Original Message-----
   From: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bill Keiser
   Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 8:39 AM
   To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: [Hammock Camping] Re: would this work to hold line?


   i don't understand, what is the matter with using a knot?
   a few years ago i went to a boat show. one of the booths there had a
   buxom young lady promoting their product, a nylon device that fastened
   two ropes together. basically it was a plastic split bolt like they
   use for electrical cable.
   she fashionably demonstrated how it worked by inserting two ropes
   into the slot and tightening the nut. when i asked her how that was
   better than using a knot, the demonstration kind of came to an awkward
   pause. she suggested that some people don't know how to tie knots. i
   suggested that people like that have no business on a boat. she was
   very nice and gave me a free sample. i have it around here somewhere.
   i hope i can find it on a cold rainy night on the deck of a boat when
   i need to fasten two ropes together.
   bk

   > Looking through a sailing catalog, I came across this piece of
   > hardware. It looks like it would work on a hammock line -
   >
   > http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d273000/e270515.asp

   > For almost the same price, you can get a pair of straps from JRB
   > with their new AL tri-glides. I used them with a pair of
   > lightweight climbing
   > carabiners to hang my HH in the Poconos a few weeks ago.

   > <http://www.jacksrbetter.com/index_files/Hammock%20Strap%20Set.htm>






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Are you saying the existence of these things proves knots are not better, or
that people prefer to not learn knots? "Can't do knots." I think that's a
choice. I don't know anyone who can't tie their shoes. Knots are not rocket
science.

I always have one more knot if I need one. I have always had one handy when I
needed it, and I never have to grope the bottom of my pack to find one. I have
plenty to share with others, and they work regardless of the size of the line
being used.

In a way I consider knot tying a basic outdoor skill, like reading a compass or
building a fire. True you can start a fire with a lighter or with a couple
sticks and not everyone can do the latter. But it would be good if they could if
they needed to.

Sorry, here's the soap box if anyone wants it next. Knots are so useful and so
under-used. Maybe cartoons should do more with knots when kids are young...

   -----Original Message-----
   From: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Cara Lin Bridgman
   Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 9:09 AM
   To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: Re: [Hammock Camping] Re: would this work to hold line?


   I know people who cannot even open a jar of spaghetti. Heaven forbid
   hammocking should discriminate against the knot-handicapped.

   Some people just can't do knots. So, we've lots of devices to help them
   out.

   Even for the knot-handy, these devices can be really convenient.

   Think about all the velcro closures on shoes.

   Think about the JRB quilts. They're attached to bungies with a biner.
   Knots would work just as well and save 6 g (0.2 oz) per biner.

   Think about the Hennessey hammocks. The tarp comes with plastic loops
   on each corner that can hook into the hook attached to the spectra with
   a prussik knot. Attaching the tarp to the hammock spectra with a
   taunt-line hitch would work just as well, would be lots lighter, and
   wouldn't take that much more time.

   As for special do-whichies as knot substitutes, I've lost some good
   shackles to the mud on the bottom of the lake. At least rope and string
   floats long enough to pick up out of the water.

   CL

   Bill Keiser wrote:
   > i don't understand, what is the matter with using a knot?





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Carey,

I was just trying to point out things from the knot-handicapped point of
   view.  This was a bit of a struggle, because I do knots and always
have.  If there are people that can't open jars of spaghetti, then there
are people that can't tie their shoes and they thank God for vecro and
buckles and slip-on shoes.

Alternatives exist because it is good to have many ways of doing
something.  Just one knot won't solve all knot problems.  There are
times when knot substitutes actually are better because they reduce
friction (i.e. biners).

Knots are definitely underused.  They're also underestimated.  My own
husband says the whole purpose of knots is to make pretty knots.  I've
argued that the whole point of pretty knots is being able to undo them.
   He doesn't have any real appreciation for the function of different
knots.  He ties great idiot knots (yes, they keep the water out of his
sleeping bag, but they keep me from unpacking his sleeping bag).  He
does tie a good taunt-line hitch.  For all of the hiking he's done, the
taunt-line hitch is about all he's needed to know.  He's happy undoing
his own idiot knots--sometimes with a knife.

CL

Carey Parks wrote:
> Are you saying the existence of these things proves knots are not better, or
that people prefer to not learn knots? "Can't do knots." I think that's a
choice. I don't know anyone who can't tie their shoes. Knots are not rocket
science.

And I was just taking the opportunity to champion the case of knots. (note the
plural.) If one knows knots and chooses to use a device, that's their choice. I
have not cut the plastic clips off my HH rig yet, and I do have a biner or two
clipped to my backpack harness in case I need to make a rescue harness. But I'll
still promote knot-craft every chance I get. There's a line in an Irish song
that goes "You can spend a fourtune, but you can't spend a trade." I'll
paraphrase that - you might not always have a gizmo, but you'll away's have a
skill.

Have you shown your hubby that you know how to tie an handcuff knot yet? Or are
you saving that for when you really need it? <g>

C

   -----Original Message-----
   From: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Cara Lin Bridgman
   Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 10:41 AM
   To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: Re: [Hammock Camping] Re: would this work to hold line?


   Carey,

   I was just trying to point out things from the knot-handicapped point of
   view. This was a bit of a struggle, because I do knots and always
   have. If there are people that can't open jars of spaghetti, then there
   are people that can't tie their shoes and they thank God for vecro and
   buckles and slip-on shoes.

   Alternatives exist because it is good to have many ways of doing
   something. Just one knot won't solve all knot problems. There are
   times when knot substitutes actually are better because they reduce
   friction (i.e. biners).

   Knots are definitely underused. They're also underestimated. My own
   husband says the whole purpose of knots is to make pretty knots. I've
   argued that the whole point of pretty knots is being able to undo them.
   He doesn't have any real appreciation for the function of different
   knots. He ties great idiot knots (yes, they keep the water out of his
   sleeping bag, but they keep me from unpacking his sleeping bag). He
   does tie a good taunt-line hitch. For all of the hiking he's done, the
   taunt-line hitch is about all he's needed to know. He's happy undoing
   his own idiot knots--sometimes with a knife.

   CL

   Carey Parks wrote:
   > Are you saying the existence of these things proves knots are not better, or
that people prefer to not learn knots? "Can't do knots." I think that's a
choice. I don't know anyone who can't tie their shoes. Knots are not rocket
science.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I just have to Ditto the case for knots.  I only use about 3 or 4 easy knots
for my hammocking.  One time I was on vacation on the Oregon coast and
didn't bring a hammock with me.  I thought it would be really nice for the
state park we were going to stay in.  So I stopped by Walmart, grabbed a 50'
bag of 3/8 yellow polypropylene hollow braid rope, 15' of their cheap
webbing and 3 yards of a suitable $1/yard fabric.  A few knots and 20
minutes later I had a hammock that was perfectly comfortable for any
situation (and I still have that same setup 3 years later!).  I would have
spend quite a bit more buying extra hardware to replace the knots.

Just my two cents worth.

Doug Campbell

PS:  I know how to tie a handcuff knot, but I've not actually used it.<g>


On 8/8/08, Carey Parks <Carey@...> wrote:
>
>   And I was just taking the opportunity to champion the case of knots.
> (note the plural.) If one knows knots and chooses to use a device, that's
> their choice. I have not cut the plastic clips off my HH rig yet, and I do
> have a biner or two clipped to my backpack harness in case I need to make a
> rescue harness. But I'll still promote knot-craft every chance I get.
> There's a line in an Irish song that goes "You can spend a fourtune, but you
> can't spend a trade." I'll paraphrase that - you might not always have a
> gizmo, but you'll away's have a skill.
>
> Have you shown your hubby that you know how to tie an handcuff knot yet? Or
> are you saving that for when you really need it? <g>
>
> C
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
<hammockcamping%40yahoogroups.com>[mailto:
> hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com <hammockcamping%40yahoogroups.com>]On
> Behalf Of Cara Lin Bridgman
> Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 10:41 AM
> To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com <hammockcamping%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Hammock Camping] Re: would this work to hold line?
>
> Carey,
>
> I was just trying to point out things from the knot-handicapped point of
> view. This was a bit of a struggle, because I do knots and always
> have. If there are people that can't open jars of spaghetti, then there
> are people that can't tie their shoes and they thank God for vecro and
> buckles and slip-on shoes.
>
> Alternatives exist because it is good to have many ways of doing
> something. Just one knot won't solve all knot problems. There are
> times when knot substitutes actually are better because they reduce
> friction (i.e. biners).
>
> Knots are definitely underused. They're also underestimated. My own
> husband says the whole purpose of knots is to make pretty knots. I've
> argued that the whole point of pretty knots is being able to undo them.
> He doesn't have any real appreciation for the function of different
> knots. He ties great idiot knots (yes, they keep the water out of his
> sleeping bag, but they keep me from unpacking his sleeping bag). He
> does tie a good taunt-line hitch. For all of the hiking he's done, the
> taunt-line hitch is about all he's needed to know. He's happy undoing
> his own idiot knots--sometimes with a knife.
>
> CL
>
> Carey Parks wrote:
> > Are you saying the existence of these things proves knots are not better,
> or that people prefer to not learn knots? "Can't do knots." I think that's a
> choice. I don't know anyone who can't tie their shoes. Knots are not rocket
> science.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I started by using knots, but then I wanted something more convenient, stronger,
and faster. So, I purchased a couple of 1" cinch buckles, some 3mm climbing line
(921lb/ft. rating), 1" military grade webbing (rated at 4k lbs!), and attached
it all to my Claytor JH....the 3mm rope through the hammock channel and tied,
via prussik, to the cinch buckles. The 1" webbing (which, along with the 3mm
rope, I got from REI) I cut in half so I had two 15' ft. sections, the ends of
which I sewed a loop so I could attached black diamond carabiners to...the other
ends of the webbing I left unsewed so I could run them through the cinch
buckles.

Now, setting up is a snap! I just wrap the webbing around the tree, snap the
carabiner onto the webbing line and pull tight...literally takes seconds to
accomplish. I do the same thing for the other side, then I put the hammock in
the middle and run the webbing straps through the cinch buckles. Pull tight
through the buckes, sit in the hammock and get out and pull on the lines to
adjust until I have it just right. My hammock has never gone up faster!! Plus,
with my hammock being 9'ft. long and the two webbing straps totally 30' ft. I
have plenty more options to hang than I did before!! Very *nice* set up now! :oD


Tom




   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Cara Lin Bridgman
   To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 7:41 AM
   Subject: Re: [Hammock Camping] Re: would this work to hold line?


   Carey,

   I was just trying to point out things from the knot-handicapped point of
   view. This was a bit of a struggle, because I do knots and always
   have. If there are people that can't open jars of spaghetti, then there
   are people that can't tie their shoes and they thank God for vecro and
   buckles and slip-on shoes.

   Alternatives exist because it is good to have many ways of doing
   something. Just one knot won't solve all knot problems. There are
   times when knot substitutes actually are better because they reduce
   friction (i.e. biners).

   Knots are definitely underused. They're also underestimated. My own
   husband says the whole purpose of knots is to make pretty knots. I've
   argued that the whole point of pretty knots is being able to undo them.
   He doesn't have any real appreciation for the function of different
   knots. He ties great idiot knots (yes, they keep the water out of his
   sleeping bag, but they keep me from unpacking his sleeping bag). He
   does tie a good taunt-line hitch. For all of the hiking he's done, the
   taunt-line hitch is about all he's needed to know. He's happy undoing
   his own idiot knots--sometimes with a knife.

   CL

   Carey Parks wrote:
   > Are you saying the existence of these things proves knots are not better, or
that people prefer to not learn knots? "Can't do knots." I think that's a
choice. I don't know anyone who can't tie their shoes. Knots are not rocket
science.






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Keiser" <bk2@...> wrote:
>
>  i don't understand, what is the matter with using a knot?

I think there are times when knots work best, times when devices work
best, and times when it is the proverbial six of one, half a dozen of
the other.  When there is no clear advantage, there almost is because
you don't have to pack knots, they don't get lost, and they aren't
near the potential weapon if you swing them around on the end of cord
or webbing.  Sometimes it seems devices require knots to secure them
that are about as complex as the knots they replace and the reason
people give for using them is that they don't want to mess with
learning knots.  Other times devices can do things that knots simply
can't do.

I suspect the choice of whether to 'knot or not' often boils down to
what is the neatest fad at the moment.  In one sense our gear becomes
our toys or hobbies or whatever and we want what interest us at some
particular time and what we think impresses our buddies.  No real
problem however you want to do it if you understand the tradeoffs and
it does what you need it to do.

Dave Womble
aka Youngblood AT2000
designer of the Speer Segmented Pad Extender, SnugFit Underquilt, and
WinterTarp.

What I have really specialized in is a hanging noose, complete to the
correct 13 wraps.

Yes, I'm saving that for when I need it!

CL

Carey Parks wrote:
> Have you shown your hubby that you know how to tie an handcuff knot yet? Or
are you saving that for when you really need it? <g>

Right!  One of my biggest concerns is losing those cute little black
biners that come with the JRB nest.

CL

Dave Womble wrote:
>  When there is no clear advantage, there almost is because
> you don't have to pack knots, they don't get lost, and they aren't
> near the potential weapon if you swing them around on the end of cord
> or webbing.