if youv`e not got anything evil to say about jeff, you may as well go back to
lurking:~) BTW... i forgot to tell this group that one of the high-lights for me
at springer mt was to meet seuss & hear in person the story about how he used a
slice of his own thumb to distract a bear that began to chase him & then seuss
ran away from camp, in order not to lead the bear into camp & endanger the other
hammockers!   he suggested there could be a less dramatic version of the story,
but i lkie that one.   i hope yall appreciate what seuss did for his fellow
hammockers!   ...tim

seuss910 <wrv77@...> wrote:  Uh...yeah. For cold weather camping I replace
the noseeum netting
with with a piece of uncoated 3/4 oz. ripstop with the same diamond
shape and velcro on the sides. I've sewn a little bugnet window
(triangular, about 4"x8") roughly over where my head is for
ventilation, but the fabric is so porous I don't know that it's
necessary. It's never really been out in the blowing and drifting
snow so I don't know how well it would protect against spindrift.
With the sides of the hammock spread apart with a 3-4 foot stick and
the "hardtop" over a ridgeline, it's like a cozy little tent under
the fly with temps a good 15 degrees warmer (at least) than outside.
Nice and cozy for reading a chapter or two before sack time and I've
never had any issues with condensation come morning.

Can I go back to lurking now? I've really got nothing evil to say
about Jeff.

--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, karens62@a... wrote:
>
> You could always use Seuss's method  where he replaced the bugnet
with a nylon cover and a little window of bug netting so he can still
see out. Seuss,  you can probably describe it better - stop lurking
and chime in :)
>
> Karen
>







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  PhotoMail  - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "seuss910" <wrv77@y...> wrote:
> Uh...yeah. For cold weather camping I replace the noseeum netting
> with with a piece of uncoated 3/4 oz. ripstop with the same diamond
> shape and velcro on the sides. I've sewn a little bugnet window
> (triangular, about 4"x8") roughly over where my head is for
> ventilation, but the fabric is so porous I don't know that it's
> necessary.

Now, that is cool!  Somehow, I have missed seeing/hearing about this
idea/concept before...
...
> the "hardtop" over a ridgeline, it's like a cozy little tent under
> the fly with temps a good 15 degrees warmer (at least) than outside.
> Nice and cozy for reading a chapter or two before sack time and I've
> never had any issues with condensation come morning.
...
And, it gets better!  No condensation!  Condensation, dew, wind-blown
rain/snow, some additonal warmth.  The *only* draw back is the lack of
a full view; but, it's always dark when I crawl in and dark when I get
up and struggle to find coffee.

Are there pics...?  I will go searching...

Thanks!

Happy Trails,

J.D.

Seuss,

Could not find a pic in the Photo Section.  Do you have any posted
elsewhere?

BTW, I agree with whoever said that The "New" Photo Section ia an
abomination....!  There was also something about not being able to
delete; I just noticed it is 48% full.

Thanks!

Happy Trails,

J.D.

> >
> > I travelled 9600 mile to the Great SW and back last year by
motor
> > cycle and hammocked 14 nights... Just camp where the trees
are...
> > lakes, rivers etc...Think of hammocking on a cycle as hammocking
when
> > hiking... stop where the trees are , not on a bald... best part
of a
> > small hammock and tarp is that they work well on the limited
space of
> > the cycle... I would not want my motorcycle to be part of the
set up
> > up...too valuable to be pulled over or have the rope wear on
paint or
> > the seat leather.
> >
> > Pan
> >
> What bike did you ride Pan?
>
> Rick

BMW K1200LTC....nice ride... comfy, like my hammock...Next ride
should take me over 100,000 Beemer miles... :-)

Pan
>

Yeah, the snow was fun wasn't it?   Dave Womble was here this week and we
tested some new gear in the back yard.  No snow, but we did get the low 20s
we were looking for, plus strong winds.  Our April campout should be better
weather..Ed



Moderator, Hammock Camping List
Author, Hammock Camping, The Complete Guide

Editor, Hammock Camping News

Owner, Speer Hammocks Inc



   _____

From: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Rosaleen Sullivan
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 7:05 PM
To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Hammock Camping] Digest Number 1159



Ed-

Chatting with you and many of the fellas here reminds me of how much I miss
the charm of Southern Gentlemen!

Thanks for the compliments.

The April campout????  That is such a tough drive back to the Boston area
under a time crunch.  Seashell and I dragged our sorry, wet selves to the
campout on Friday last year after hiking south from Spivey Gap, about 56 or
58 miles, and left Saturday evening to begin the drive home.  We brought
rain, cold, and snow with us.  I can't believe you would COMPLAIN that it
hasn't been the same.  You want more rain, cold , fog, and maybe snow????
(wink!)

Cheers!

Rosaleen





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "J.D. Hoessle" <JD@H...> wrote:
> BTW, I agree with whoever said that The "New" Photo Section ia an
> abomination....!  There was also something about not being able to
> delete; I just noticed it is 48% full.

I find it easier to navigate the pages to the album I want, then right-
click on the album and "open in new window".  Then just close that
album when done, and you don't have to navigate all the way through
again to get back to where you were.  Still not as good as the older
version, but it saves several clicks.

Jeff

Jeff, the Clark Jungle Hammock has an inner zip-in wind shell made from
light breathable ripstop.  It does trap a lot of escaping body heat and only
gets slightly wet from breath condensation-at least in the conditions I
tried it.  Suess made his own with a clear plastic peep hole at the head
end-I think he's happy with it.  So such a design does work quite well.  I
would be interested in hearing if you or anyone else finds an even better
suited fabric..Ed



Moderator, Hammock Camping List
Author, Hammock Camping, The Complete Guide

Editor, Hammock Camping News

Owner, Speer Hammocks Inc



   _____

From: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of jwj32542
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 7:15 PM
To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
Subject: {Spam?} [Hammock Camping] Re: Winter Hammock fabrics



--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Speer" <ed@s...> wrote:
>
> Jeff, your mention of GoreTex for a cold weather replacement for
the bugnet
> is quite possible.  It certainly would protect from blowing snow.
But,
> perhaps some other fabric might also work--I've never been
satisfied with
> the actual in-the-field function of GoreTex;

I agree.  I'd like to use MP but I can't find a source for a big
enough material that doesn't require a bulk order.  I'd also be a
bit concerned about it whipping around in strong winds, but it would
probably be good enough for most conditions.  Certainly worth an
extra layer of protection, IMO.  Maybe even make it double as a
poncho.

My biggest concern is venting breath.  I like DebW's design because
it allows that.  I think I'd like to have something up on a
ridgeline, or held up like a bugnet, in case I'm in there for a
while.  That might make the condensation worse, though.

Anyway - just a thought.  I think it would be a useful product, and
it would fit like a module on your current line.

Jeff






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jonas, I've found that my condensed breath on my bugnet can freeze and may
even fall back into the hammock as snow-generally not a serious problem.
However, the frozen condensation can re-melt as temps rise after sunup and
drip annoyingly back into the hammock.  Since a bugnet can cause this
problem, I've also been leery of more vapor-proof fabrics as well...Ed



Moderator, Hammock Camping List
Author, Hammock Camping, The Complete Guide

Editor, Hammock Camping News

Owner, Speer Hammocks Inc



   _____

From: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of jonas4321
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 7:27 PM
To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
Subject: {Spam?} [Hammock Camping] Winter Snow Protection - Bug Net?



Has anyone tried using their noseeum bug net in the winter to help
keep wind-driven snow off of you and your hammock? I am not suggesting
doing away with the tarp, but to augment it.

I had the chance this past weekend to test that theory, but since I
have a bugnet "tube" and I didn't notice I forgot to put it on until
after the hammock was hung, and by then I was too durn lazy to untie
it to add it.

I am also wondering if moisture from your breath would collect and
freeze on the inside of the noseeum mesh, too.

Thoughts? Experiences? Wild baseless theories?

If this would work, it would save me making a bivy.

thx







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "jack_tier" <jacktier@c...> wrote:
> BMW K1200LTC....nice ride... comfy, like my hammock...Next ride
> should take me over 100,000 Beemer miles... :-)

Cool!

BMW R90/6 - Purchased 1976 - over 200K now.  Haven't been on a long
road trip for some time 'cause my SkyDog hates the noise...<g>...
But, she loves the hammock!

Happy Trails,

J.D.

I've had the same experience with bugnets on hammocks where
condensation collected, and if it was cold enough it was frozen.  I've
also had experiences where the bugnet came in handy as it significantly
reduced the effects of pesky cold winds.  We all know that conditions
are not always the same when we camp outdoors, but sometimes we seem to
forget that and expect out gear or setups to just appropriate handle
whatever conditions we are in.  Something as simple as the wind blowing
or not can drastically affect the performance or suitability of
particular gear or a particular setup, particularly in terms of
condensation issues or the wind robbing you of your warmth.  On gear
that has the flexibility to adjust for conditions, sometimes we set it
up correctly and in the middle of the night the conditions change...
whether we make adjustments in the middle of the night often comes down
to how much trouble it is to make adjustments and whether we fell that
it is worth the trouble or not.

Usually the things effecting condensation not are black or white, but
rather different shades of grey.  In those cases it is not as critical
what you do.  However, that is not always the case and it is helpful to
have some understanding of how various gear or setups can be adjusted
(or not) to better accommodate different conditions.

Youngblood


--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Speer" <ed@s...> wrote:
>
> Jonas, I've found that my condensed breath on my bugnet can freeze
and may
> even fall back into the hammock as snow-generally not a serious
problem.
> However, the frozen condensation can re-melt as temps rise after
sunup and
> drip annoyingly back into the hammock.  Since a bugnet can cause this
> problem, I've also been leery of more vapor-proof fabrics as well...Ed
>
>

For anyone interested, I just updated the KAQ test page.

http://www.tothewoods.net/GearTestKAQ.html

=====

Date: Dec 05 to Jan 06
Low Temp: High 40s F
Weather: Sunroom
Gear: HH Backpacker Ultralight Asym, KAQ Potomac Underquilt,
   JRB No-Sniveller top quilt. Also a fit test on a homemade
   Speer-type with ridgeline, without bugnet.
Worn: Nylon running shorts, cotton T-shirt

I've used the underquilt a handful of times on the HH this month,
and it's worked very well as noted above.

Snakeskins

I also tried to stuff it into JRB Python Skins with the HH
Backpacker Ultralight Asym. Didn't work...the quilt was too bulky.
However, Patrick has since removed 2" of width from the Potomac, so
that might be enough to make it work.

I also tried the Potomac on my homemade Speer-type (w/o bugnet). It
fit inside the Python Skins, but the final 12-18" required quite a
bit of stuffing. I'm pretty picky about compressing my quilts, and I
wouldn't feel comfortable with the compression and stuffing/shearing
motions needed at the middle when the two skins came together. I
think the new quilts with the reduced width would probably fit well
enough to solve these problems, though.

FYI, I measured the circumference of the Python Skins at 12" at the
widest point...I think it's definitely worth making some skins large
enough to fit the quilt. After getting the proper fit, my concern
would be folding the snake in the same place every time for packing.
It doesn't affect down any, but over time that might wear a thin
spot in the synthetic insulation. I'm not sure it would cause any
damage...just speculating.

Potomac on Homemade Speer-type

I need to play around some more to get a better fit, but it fits ok
with a quick adjustment. I like how it minimizes the gap under my
knees, and the adjustable shockcord on the sides makes it snug up
around the hammock very well.

However, the bathtub shape causes gaps along the sides since it
doesn't have the HH-style side tie-outs. I tried attaching the
Potomac side connectors to the ridgeline with the shockcord. This
helped with the gaps, but the fit around the shoulders changed
because of the asym shape. Need some more tinkering to find the best
solution here. I'll sleep in it tonight and see what I can come up
with.

I also used webbing supports on the homemade hammock, instead of the
Spectra cord on the HH. It held fine, but the prussik folded the
webbing when I pulled it tight. In the field, I'd have to make sure
the folds pointed down so they didn't funnel water into the
hammock/underquilt. Coupled with a drip string (that's a good idea
for any hammock/underquilt), I don't think this would be a
problem...just something else to check at each setup. Unless the
webbing twists during the night, maybe.

Still happy with this gear - haven't found anything that really
turns me off yet!

Variations in how gear works for different people or in changing weather
conditions-no, tell me it's not true!!  LOL



OK, Youngblood's right of course.  I just wanted to add that Youngblood & I
were together Wednesday night testing some new gear and part of the
discussions focused on exactly the effects of changing weather over the
course of the night-cold 25 mph winds dropped to 5 mph over the course of
the night.  Being tightly bundled up for the strong winds was not suitable
later when they stopped, even tho the temps continued to drop.



I've just acquired an accurate temperature probe and a humidity/dew point
measuring device to try & document the various hammock/gear environments.
Not sure this will answer the sticky problem of how to avoid condensation,
but maybe I can put some numbers to the issue.  I know Rick has done some
temperature measurements with his infrared thermometer, but has anyone tried
to measure humidity/dew point & compare it to temperature inside the hammock
or inside their gear?  ..Ed



Moderator, Hammock Camping List
Author, Hammock Camping, The Complete Guide

Editor, Hammock Camping News

Owner, Speer Hammocks Inc



   _____

From: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Dave Womble
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 11:49 AM
To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
Subject: {Spam?} [Hammock Camping] Re: Winter Snow Protection - Bug Net?



I've had the same experience with bugnets on hammocks where
condensation collected, and if it was cold enough it was frozen.  I've
also had experiences where the bugnet came in handy as it significantly
reduced the effects of pesky cold winds.  We all know that conditions
are not always the same when we camp outdoors, but sometimes we seem to
forget that and expect out gear or setups to just appropriate handle
whatever conditions we are in.  Something as simple as the wind blowing
or not can drastically affect the performance or suitability of
particular gear or a particular setup, particularly in terms of
condensation issues or the wind robbing you of your warmth.  On gear
that has the flexibility to adjust for conditions, sometimes we set it
up correctly and in the middle of the night the conditions change...
whether we make adjustments in the middle of the night often comes down
to how much trouble it is to make adjustments and whether we fell that
it is worth the trouble or not.

Usually the things effecting condensation not are black or white, but
rather different shades of grey.  In those cases it is not as critical
what you do.  However, that is not always the case and it is helpful to
have some understanding of how various gear or setups can be adjusted
(or not) to better accommodate different conditions.

Youngblood


--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Speer" <ed@s...> wrote:
>
> Jonas, I've found that my condensed breath on my bugnet can freeze
and may
> even fall back into the hammock as snow-generally not a serious
problem.
> However, the frozen condensation can re-melt as temps rise after
sunup and
> drip annoyingly back into the hammock.  Since a bugnet can cause this
> problem, I've also been leery of more vapor-proof fabrics as well...Ed
>
>








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Rv
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks, Jeff!

I've been doing too much sewing and not enough using/testing the last couple of
weeks.  I'm doing my best to sneak out of work early tonight to get to
Shenandoah for the weekend.  If I can, I'll get some testing down into the 20s. 
If I'm stuck here, I'll do some more testing behind my house with the hammock
you sent me.  Either way, it means tons of new pictures and info on the site
next week.

Thanks for testing it with the snake skins.  As far as I know, those are
patented, so it's not something I can sell.  But it would be worth making them
to figure out the optimum size for anyone who wants to make their own.

I've been playing with knots for use with the webbing and haven't yet found
anything that doesn't fold it.  If anyone knows any, I'd love to see them.  I
found the same thing to be true - that you can just be sure the "gutter" side is
down when hanging.  I'm now trying to see if there's some light hardware that
might work better.

I'm curious about the fit.  I've only started testing this myself, but haven't
had the side gaps you mentioned.  Are you snugging down the side elastics?  I
find that they sometimes need to be somewhat tight.  Sounds like a job for
pictures.

Thanks again, Jeff.  I can't wait for you to try it out in some real winter
weather.

Patrick McKenna
http://www.KickassQuilts.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Using a sling psychrometer is on that short, but annoying list of
things I can't do inside a hammock.

--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Speer" <ed@s...> wrote:
   I know Rick has done some
> temperature measurements with his infrared thermometer, but has
anyone tried
> to measure humidity/dew point & compare it to temperature inside the
hammock
> or inside their gear?  ..Ed
>
>

Just takes agility Seuss.  LOL  Of course, I could say something about old
technology, but I won't.  I have a new fang-tangle pocket weather station
that makes a slew of measurements-wind speed, temp, humidity, chill factor,
heat index, dew point, barometric pressure, & altitude.  All while I catch
my zzzzzs!  Also have another instrument that measures temp from a
thermocouple on the end of a 15' long flexible wire.  Ain't nobody safe now!
You either love toys or ya hate 'em!  Now if I can just find time to get
outside for some hard data...Ed



Moderator, Hammock Camping List
Author, Hammock Camping, The Complete Guide

Editor, Hammock Camping News

Owner, Speer Hammocks Inc



   _____

From: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of seuss910
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 3:20 PM
To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
Subject: {Spam?} [Hammock Camping] Re: Winter Snow Protection - Bug Net?



Using a sling psychrometer is on that short, but annoying list of
things I can't do inside a hammock.

--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Speer" <ed@s...> wrote:
   I know Rick has done some
> temperature measurements with his infrared thermometer, but has
anyone tried
> to measure humidity/dew point & compare it to temperature inside the
hammock
> or inside their gear?  ..Ed
>
>







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&.sig=rECy3cqNEIpgzeVoZEsTnw>  outdoors

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ing+food&w3=Rv+camping&w4=Gsi+outdoors&w5=Happy+camper&w6=Outdoors&c=6&s=105
&.sig=sXLsCHw8KwziLp8dHz7HkA>  camper

Outdoors
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Speer" <ed@s...> wrote:
> has anyone tried
> to measure humidity/dew point & compare it to temperature inside the
hammock
> or inside their gear?

I don't have the humidity numbers, but my hammock sock was about 10F
warmer than outside when I closed it up around me...coldest night was
about 40F, IIRC.  I didn't have any condensation inside even though I
was breathing into it, but I could definitely tell a difference when I
opened it up.  Not sure I'd want that in below freezing temps.

Jeff

--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Kickass Quilts"
<kickassquilts@c...> wrote:

> I'm curious about the fit.  I've only started testing this myself,
> but haven't had the side gaps you mentioned.  Are you snugging down
> the side elastics?  I find that they sometimes need to be somewhat
> tight.  Sounds like a job for pictures.

Yes, I tried adjusting the side shockcords to various tensions.  It
definitely helped, and I like how that makes it snug up to my
shoulders.  Still had some gaps underneath the edges, though...where
the bathtub shape made it kinda poke out some.

Like I said, I didn't spend a whole lot of time trying to fix it this
time, so I'll play with it more later.

Jeff

--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "J.D. Hoessle" <JD@H...>
wrote:
>
> --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "jack_tier" <jacktier@c...>
wrote:
> > BMW K1200LTC....nice ride... comfy, like my hammock...Next ride
> > should take me over 100,000 Beemer miles... :-)
>
> Cool!
>
> BMW R90/6 - Purchased 1976 - over 200K now.  Haven't been on a long
> road trip for some time 'cause my SkyDog hates the noise...<g>...
> But, she loves the hammock!
>
> Happy Trails,
>
> J.D.
>

J.D. sounds like a nice ride... maybe there are enough riders and
hammocker for a ride in and hang out some where neat.... the
campground at mile marker 47 of the Keys was sold this year or I
suggest it...Any other riding hammockers out there?

Pan

yes... my hammock is like "comfort food" ...with-out the calories!       it hugs
me & rocks me to sleep.

karens62@... wrote:
Tim,

If it makes you feel any better, Ed still sleeps in his hammock every single
night I am not home ( about 3 nights a week), and he gets lots of hugs so you'll
have to think up a new excuse! And now that I think about it, he often convinces
me to sleep in my hammock even when I am home. Must be a comfort thing.

Karen


-----Original Message-----
From: tim garner <slowbecause i`m a single guy, i used a lg eye hook in the BR
door jam & a cariage bolt goes through an exterior wall (w/ nut &
washer outside). i`ve been sleeping in a hammock every night (w/ the
exception of 2 or 3 nights) every since i got my 1st hammock last
spring. of course that`s because i`m single & my hammock is the
closest thing to a hug i get sometimes :~)  ...tim
hike@...>
To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 02:42:21 -0000
Subject: [Hammock Camping] new comer


clayton... because i`m a single guy, i used a lg eye hook in the BR
door jam & a cariage bolt goes through an exterior wall (w/ nut &
washer outside). i`ve been sleeping in a hammock every night (w/ the
exception of 2 or 3 nights) every since i got my 1st hammock last
spring. of course that`s because i`m single & my hammock is the
closest thing to a hug i get sometimes :~)  ...tim






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Anyone have a theoretical argument whether a hammock sock or a hard
top should be warmer?  The difference being that the hammock sock lies
directly against the sleeping bag, enclosing the hammock top and
bottom, while the hard top is suspended overhead with a ridgeline.
Potentially also the hammock sock may not cover the head, but that
would be another issue.  So I guess the question is, does increasing the
amount of still air around you increase warmth?  Or mean that the air
inside can move around more and thus decrease warmth?  Or does it all
depend on conditions?  I've generally found sleeping in a tent to be
warmer than sleeping in a bivy sack, which would argue for the hard top
to be warmer - maybe more distance between the outside of your
sleeping bag and and the moving outside air.

DebW

--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "jwj32542" <jwj32542@y...>
wrote:
>
> --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Speer" <ed@s...>
wrote:
> > has anyone tried
> > to measure humidity/dew point & compare it to temperature inside the
> hammock
> > or inside their gear?
>
> I don't have the humidity numbers, but my hammock sock was about
10F
> warmer than outside when I closed it up around me...coldest night was
> about 40F, IIRC.  I didn't have any condensation inside even though I
> was breathing into it, but I could definitely tell a difference when I
> opened it up.  Not sure I'd want that in below freezing temps.
>
> Jeff
>

Hey Deb!  That's a lot of question(s) and you would be one of the
people I would think to ask about that.  I think you are asking about
your body heating up a volume of surrounding air, as in a small tent
versus a bivy sack?  Likely, it is as you surmised... it depends.
There are a lot of factors that could come into play and they might
turn the tables on which shelter worked best as they varied:
humidity, condensation issues, ventilation, temperature, wind speed,
etc.  You provide the heat and I believe your body tries to regulate
your skin temperature to about 90F.  After things settle down (steady
state condition) you have a temperature gradient starting at 90F and
ending at the outside air temperature (let's forget about the path to
ground in this discussion).  In between you have your adjacent
insulation (sleeping bag), then a boundry layer of warm air and then
your tent or bivy sack which probably doesn't have much of a boundry
on the outside.  Primarily the heat transfer is conductive in your
sleeping bag and natural convection at the boundry layer.  But
somewhere in that boundry layer of warm air you want some forced
convection currents to vent away the humid air you generate so you
don't have condensation issues.  What I'm asking is that IF YOU COULD
control the ventilation, would you not end up with the same amount of
boundry layer insulation in either condition?  Wouldn't you want to
move so many cubic feet of air per minute and wouldn't that limit the
amount of boundry layer warmth you could get?  But, you have limits
with particular shelters in what you can do regarding ventilation
versus blocking wind and that would mean that no one shelter would be
optimum for the whole range of conditions that we encounter when
camping.  However, for a particular set of conditions, one shelter
might be a better choice than another and vice versa, for a
particular set of conditions one type of shelter might... well, it
just might sux.

All of this is often complex in nature unless you 'just know how' to
handle various situations.  I saw a post yesterday by Mark Verber and
looked through some of the links he referenced and saw a book by Hal
Weiss titled "Secrets of Warmth: For Comfort or Survival".  I was
thinking about ordering it as I have a gift certificate to use up and
it is only $9 ( http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/089886643X/103-
8357169-6143853 ).  Are you familar with this book?

Dave



--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Debra Weisenstein"
<dweisens@a...> wrote:
>
> Anyone have a theoretical argument whether a hammock sock or a hard
> top should be warmer?  The difference being that the hammock sock
lies
> directly against the sleeping bag, enclosing the hammock top and
> bottom, while the hard top is suspended overhead with a ridgeline.
> Potentially also the hammock sock may not cover the head, but that
> would be another issue.  So I guess the question is, does
increasing the
> amount of still air around you increase warmth?  Or mean that the
air
> inside can move around more and thus decrease warmth?  Or does it
all
> depend on conditions?  I've generally found sleeping in a tent to
be
> warmer than sleeping in a bivy sack, which would argue for the hard
top
> to be warmer - maybe more distance between the outside of your
> sleeping bag and and the moving outside air.
>
> DebW
>
> --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "jwj32542" <jwj32542@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Speer" <ed@s...>
> wrote:
> > > has anyone tried
> > > to measure humidity/dew point & compare it to temperature
inside the
> > hammock
> > > or inside their gear?
> >
> > I don't have the humidity numbers, but my hammock sock was about
> 10F
> > warmer than outside when I closed it up around me...coldest night
was
> > about 40F, IIRC.  I didn't have any condensation inside even
though I
> > was breathing into it, but I could definitely tell a difference
when I
> > opened it up.  Not sure I'd want that in below freezing temps.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
>

deb... my understanding is that air that`s free to circulate (even
though it`s enclosed like in a tent or hard top) is going be colder
than air that is traped in a smaller space (clothing) closer to the
body. but it will be warmer than the outside temps because of the
nylon wall & it has a heat source (person) inside.  so as i`ve
listened w/ great interrest, i`m thinking a system that would provide
more warmth w/ less weight would be a layer of protective material
laying directly on the person`s quilt from chest area to the
attachment point at the foot of the hammock. that part could use a
zipper, & could possibly be attached to the top of a speer type
hammock by the velcro.    from the chest up, a hard top like yall have
been talking about (suspended by ridgeline) would help alow for breath
moister management. the hard top part over the head area could be
attached to the hammock & the flat cover over the lower part by
velcro.  it would not only be attached on each side of it`s a-frame
shape, but also enclosed across the chest area as it comes down from
the ridge line (like the end of a tent).  what cha think?  ...tim

--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Debra Weisenstein"
<dweisens@a...> wrote:
>
> Anyone have a theoretical argument whether a hammock sock or a
hard
> top should be warmer?

When I had the big temp difference in the hammock sock, I used it
over a ridgeline so it provided wind protection both above and below
the hammock.  When it's windy, I can tell a big difference between
using it with a ridgeline and using it without...most pronounced at
my feet.  Maybe adding the space of "less disturbed air" between my
toes and the wind is the cause?

I think another reason is that it traps some of my warm exhaled
air.  Of course, that also adds a lot of humidity.  I wonder if the
DWR on the quilts kept the moisture out of them or if they absorbed
some, though.

But in the end, I think it's two different systems.  The hammock
sock provides the same windblock above and below the hammock, while
the hard top only provides it above.  So with a hard top, the
convection steals the heat directly from the bottom insulation
rather than having a larger space of less disturbed air.

Does that make any sense?

Jeff

uhhh. i would have said all that same stuff dave said sept i aint
have my second cup of coffee yet :~)    ...tim

--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "tim garner" <slowhike@y...>
wrote:
>
>  uhhh. i would have said all that same stuff dave said sept i aint
> have my second cup of coffee yet :~)    ...tim

Haha.  I would have said it 'cept I ain't that smart!  ;p

--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "tim garner" <slowhike@y...>
wrote:
> what cha think?  ...tim

I think there should be a space between the sleeping bag and the cover.

Same principle as loft in a quilt, only with no insulation to stop the
convection as effectively.  However, the cover will greatly reduce the
amount of convection directly affecting the top of the quilt, thereby
making the user warmer.

At least that's how I think a Garlington Taco works - providing
a "less disturbed" pocket of air below the hammock to reduce the
amount of convection.  Seems like a hard top would work the same way,
except for more humidity issues like Dave discussed.

Jeff

--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Debra Weisenstein"
<dweisens@a...> wrote:
> Anyone have a theoretical argument whether a hammock sock or a hard
> top should be warmer?

Of course, it "all depends"...  If I may, let's narrow it down by
assuming that there is NO wind.  Also, assume there is NO condensation
problem.

I think if you throw out those two variables (hard to do in
real-life), the "dead air" becomes an insulation barrier much like the
principle of a vacuum-thermos-bottle.  So, I would think that both
(sock & hard top) would be fairly equal.

If the wind is a factor, it seems that the hard top would lose more
heat because the sock would not allow as much heat transfer/loss.  In
a properly ventilated small-one-person tent, exhaltion (ignore
moisture for this) does warm the interior air; but, windy conditons
create a greater (more rapid) heat loss from the tent thru the fabric
and vent.

Much like the principle of a wet-suit, a sock means that you are
heating less of the air space immediately next to you.  If you are in
a tent or hard top, your body is trying to heat a greater volume of air.

In my *OLD* small-one-person tent, moisture was a problem until I
learned to properly ventilate.  But, even then, moisture would collect
on the underside of the vent and vestibule <THEN FREEZE> which was
always so much fun crawling out with ice crystals tunbling down the
back of my neck....<g>...

I have found that in a hammock, I need to have the proper amount of
insulation (whatever R-Value) for the conditons/temperature around my
body - top/sides/bottom.  Exhaled moisture/condensation is
"controlled" by keeping a piece of fleece (balaclava - Yeah, that
Greek candy) over my nose/mouth when it's really really cold.  In no
wind conditions, I have seen some moisture accumulation on the tarp;
but, no big deal.

Just my two cents and "theoretical argument"....<g>...

Happy Trails,

J.D.

I have not seen anyone mention using Velcro to secure a bottom quilt in place.
On the Speer hammock there is Velcro to allow attachment of the bug net in
summer.  It seems to me that this same Velcro could be used to attach the
underquilt.  There would be no gaps for the wind to sneak into and the bottom
quilt would stay snug.  There might be some compression right at the point of
connection but otherwise there should not be any problems.

   I just ordered a KickAss quilt for my HH and I am going to experiment with
Velcro (either continuous or in short tabs) unless this has already been tried
and found wanting.

   I hope to meet some of you at the April hang in.

Dave Chamberlain

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "J.D. Hoessle" <JD@H...> wrote:
>
> Ah! Hah!  Now I understand what you're up to there.  Guess you have
> seen Risk's "Quarter Weight" idea...?  Once you obtain your fabric,
> that looks like a good low-cost solution.  Don't forget to add in the
> dollar for the quarters.  Just my "two bits"  Yuk!  Yuk!

FYI, folks...

His "jokes" are just as bad in person.  Sigh...

Fuzzy

Pan wrote:
>Any other riding hammockers out there?

There's me, but I'm in California. Kinda for from the Keys ...

Matthew Takeda
the JOAT