Exactly 60 years after The Gospel of Thomas was unearthed, the first
Chinese gThomas book, entitled "The Spiritual Analects of Jesus - The
Gospel of Thomas" has been published (Nov. 2005) by Lapen Press (Press
of Literature History and Philosophy) in Taipei, Taiwan, R.O.C.

The contents of this book are:
1. Introduction
2. The Spiritual Analects of Jesus:
    Left page: Full Chinese translation parallel to English translation.
    Right page: Coptic/Chinese (as Michael Grondin did for English
                version but more explanation in coptic grammar) and
                Greek/Chinese interlinear translation.

3. The Spiritual Analects of Jesus in Chinese [2nd version] (with only
    one "Jesus said" and with minor editing).

4. Commentary and related documents:
    (Many Church father's documents, The Jesus Sutras [found in
     Dun-Huang China 1908], Toa-De Jin, Buddhism documents, Zen poems,
     Chinese ancient philosophers' documents are included and discussed
     in the commentary)

5. Appendices:
(1) Chapter 90 of the Gospel of Holy Twelve: What is Truth?
(2) The Gospel of Mary (Coptic/Chinese Interlinear and full Chinese
     translation)
(3) Lord's prayer (Coptic/Chinese Interlinear translation).

This book was written in a highly academic way. In addition, many
sayings were presented with the Chinese poetic manner (something like
Zen poem style).  One may find that ~40% of the comments in this book
were extracted from western authors' publications and 60% were newly
introduced by the author.  For example, saying 33 was reformatted in
such way that the spiritual hearing system and spiritual visual system
are listed side by side for comparison:

spiritual hearing system  spiritual visual system
Ear (Copt- maaje) 	 Bushel (Copt- maaje)
Words listened (Copt– swtM erof) Light (Copt– ouoein)
Ear [of heart](Copt– xM pke maaje) Lamp (Copt– xhBS)
Housetop(Copt– jenepwr) 	 Lampstand (Copt– luynia)
Proclaim (Copt– ta0eoei0)  Light a lamp (Copt– e0are fjere xhBS)
[Words received by everyone's ear] Everyone.. see its light (Copt–
                                                    euna nau apef ouoein)


Benedict
Georgetown University

The format was set side by side with equal spaces in preview.  But the
spaces are gone in reading.  So let me put || to separate them.

> spiritual hearing system  || spiritual visual system
> Ear (Copt- maaje) 	 || Bushel (Copt- maaje)
> Words listened (Copt– swtM erof) || Light (Copt– ouoein)
> Ear [of heart](Copt– xM pke maaje) || Lamp (Copt– xhBS)
> Housetop(Copt– jenepwr)  || Lampstand (Copt– luynia)
> Proclaim (Copt– ta0eoei0)  || Light a lamp (Copt– e0are fjere xhBS)
> [Words received by everyone's ear] || Everyone.. see its light (Copt–
>                                                    euna nau apef ouoein)

Where is this book available for purchase?  As a lover of both the Gospel of
Thomas and the Jesus Sutras, I'd love to have to have this book.  I couldn't
find it via Amazon or Google.

Thanks!

pax/shalom/salaam,
Darrell

Blog of the Grateful Bear:
http://wildfaith.blogspot.com/


----- Original Message -----
From: "benedictlo1" <benedictlo1@...>
To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 4:50 PM
Subject: [GTh] Gospel of Thomas and Oriental Spiritual Approches


Exactly 60 years after The Gospel of Thomas was unearthed, the first
Chinese gThomas book, entitled "The Spiritual Analects of Jesus - The
Gospel of Thomas" has been published (Nov. 2005) by Lapen Press (Press
of Literature History and Philosophy) in Taipei, Taiwan, R.O.C.

The contents of this book are:
1. Introduction
2. The Spiritual Analects of Jesus:
    Left page: Full Chinese translation parallel to English translation.
    Right page: Coptic/Chinese (as Michael Grondin did for English
                version but more explanation in coptic grammar) and
                Greek/Chinese interlinear translation.

3. The Spiritual Analects of Jesus in Chinese [2nd version] (with only
    one "Jesus said" and with minor editing).

4. Commentary and related documents:
    (Many Church father's documents, The Jesus Sutras [found in
     Dun-Huang China 1908], Toa-De Jin, Buddhism documents, Zen poems,
     Chinese ancient philosophers' documents are included and discussed
     in the commentary)

5. Appendices:
(1) Chapter 90 of the Gospel of Holy Twelve: What is Truth?
(2) The Gospel of Mary (Coptic/Chinese Interlinear and full Chinese
     translation)
(3) Lord's prayer (Coptic/Chinese Interlinear translation).

This book was written in a highly academic way. In addition, many
sayings were presented with the Chinese poetic manner (something like
Zen poem style).  One may find that ~40% of the comments in this book
were extracted from western authors' publications and 60% were newly
introduced by the author.  For example, saying 33 was reformatted in
such way that the spiritual hearing system and spiritual visual system
are listed side by side for comparison:

spiritual hearing system spiritual visual system
Ear (Copt- maaje) Bushel (Copt- maaje)
Words listened (Copt- swtM erof) Light (Copt- ouoein)
Ear [of heart](Copt- xM pke maaje) Lamp (Copt- xhBS)
Housetop(Copt- jenepwr) Lampstand (Copt- luynia)
Proclaim (Copt- ta0eoei0) Light a lamp (Copt- e0are fjere xhBS)
[Words received by everyone's ear] Everyone.. see its light (Copt-
                                                    euna nau apef ouoein)


Benedict
Georgetown University

--- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "benedictlo1" <benedictlo1@y...> wrote:
>
> Exactly 60 years after The Gospel of Thomas was unearthed, the first
> Chinese gThomas book, entitled "The Spiritual Analects of Jesus - The
> Gospel of Thomas" has been published (Nov. 2005) by Lapen Press (Press
> of Literature History and Philosophy) in Taipei, Taiwan, R.O.C.
>
> The contents of this book are:
<snip>

>
> 5. Appendices:
> (1) Chapter 90 of the Gospel of Holy Twelve: What is Truth?

Hi Benedict,

In what context is the Gospel of the Holy Twelve introduced? It's a
late  nineteenth century fake by Rev. G. J. Ouseley.

Andrew Smith

> Hi Benedict,
> In what context is the Gospel of the Holy Twelve introduced? It's a
> late  nineteenth century fake by Rev. G. J. Ouseley.
> Andrew Smith

Hi Andrew:

If the 1st edition of the Gospel of Holy 12 (GoH12) was published a
few years earlier than the Greek fragments of GoTh unearthed, we all
needs an explanation in why there are quite a few passages in the
GoH12 overlapped with GoTh. I did some research including visiting the
British Library to check it out. They said the 1st edition of the
GoH12 was destroyed during the WWII. Judging by the contents compiled
in the GoH12, I also feel that the GoH12 is a fake one. But some one
must prove that it is really a fake one.  Nevertheless, there are a
few chapters (such as chapter 90 of GoH12) are worth of reading.


Benedict

I am not sure how many people read Chinese in this group. Since Darrel
asked, let me give further information for your convenience. You can
buy the book from the bookstore websites in Taiwan:

http://www.eslitebooks.com/cgi-bin/eslite.dll/search/book/book.jsp?idx=1&pageNo=\
1&PRODUCT_ID=2680049270008

http://www.lapen.com.tw/a2.htm

If your computer does not display Chinese, you may need to download
the Chinese (BIG5) package from your original OS CD.

I also have the complete Jesus Sutras (JS) text in Chinese. Both the
book and JS only make sense for those who read Chinese or actively
learning Chinese. You (gthomas member only) can send me your mailing
address to my yahoo e-mail. I will then send each requested member a
copy. My only request is that donate $30 to whichever charity
organization you wish to.  I can only spare 20 copies for gthomas
members now, first come first serve. If you want my autograph in
Chinese, in English or both, please express your wish in the e-mail.
Those who wish to receive a copy of complete Jesus Sutras (25 pages)
in Chinese and accept copy print from my computer or copy machine,
please add $10 in your donation, I can send it with the book.  Again
don't send money to me. Instead add the amount in your charity
donation. That's all.
I will post a message at this web when all 20 copies are gone, but one
might try later. [I hope that the Owner and Moderator of gthomas
approve my proposal]

In my first message, does "the spiritual hearing system vs. spiritual
visual system" (saying 33) inspire anybody?


Benedict

Hi everyone,

I thought some on this list might be interested to know that Crum's "Coptic
Dictionary", which is currently out of print, is about to be released
electronically by Logos Bible Software through the Libronix Digital Library
System. Prices are:

Suggested Retail Price  $198.58 AUD (approx; $149.95 USD)
Logos Sale Price 	 $172.10 AUD (approx; $129.95 USD)
Pre-Publication Special  $132.37 AUD (approx; $99.95 USD)

See http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/2529 for further details.

Also available is Richard Smith's "A Concise Coptic-English Lexicon"

Suggested Retail Price  $26.42 AUD (approx; $19.95 USD)
Logos Sale Price 	 $26.42 AUD (approx; $19.95 USD)
Pre-Publication Special  $19.80 AUD (approx; $14.95 USD)

See http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/2530

Of course, seeing this is part of the Libronix system, you would need to
purchase some base-level  software if you don't already have it.  The prices
they are charging on the website are not cheap, but I found a base-level
version at my local discount Christian bookshop on sale for significantly
less than the quoted prices.  Many of the books that they offer are
theologically fairly conservative, but they also have Nag Hammadi in English
(4th ed) for $66.00 USD, the complete 60 years of the Biblical Archaeologist
for $109.00 USD and Semeia 1974-2002 for $49.95 USD, plus a range of
Aramaic, Syriac and Latin resources and they are also planning to release a
"Coptic Bible" in the near future.

I have Nag Hammadi in English and Semeia and find them quite useful because
there is a search facility in the software. It does, however, take a little
while to get your mind around how the system works.

FWIW Logos also provides a downloadable Coptic keyboard mapping for use with
Unicode fonts and with the Logos Library system at
http://www.logos.com/support/lbs/fonts/CopticKeyboard.   I am not totally
enthralled with the layout because some of the non-Greek characters require
the use of the Alt key, but you get used to it after a while and I assume
that using it would allow you to do an electronic search in Crum, although I
haven't actually checked this out.  Having perfectly good paper copies of
both Crum and Smith, I am not sure that I want to lay out the money to buy
the electronic versions.

Incidentally, if I understand the site correctly, they won't ship until they
get more pre-pub orders, so it may be a while before you get your copy.
They post out CD-ROMs which you install and unlock on your computer.

Judy

--
"Noncooperation with evil is as much a moral obligation as is cooperation
with good" - Martin Luther King Jr

Rev Judy Redman
Uniting Church Chaplain
University of New England
Armidale 2351
ph:  +61 2 6773 3739
fax: +61 2 6773 3749
web:  http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
email:  jredman@...

Dear all,

Crum is actually available now from Wipf and Stock. Check out

http://www.wipfandstock.com/bookstore.cfm?bookID=2131&do=detail

It's a very nice edition, actually: the print is much clearer than you
sometimes get in photographic reproductions or whatever they're called.
SJG


------------
Dr Simon Gathercole
Senior Lecturer in New Testament
University of Aberdeen

01224 272374

A few years ago, my friend introduced me about the Gospel of Holy 12
(GoH12), I quickly scanned it and found that it is a book compiled
canonical gospels and other things with vegetarian episodes.  It made
me immediately think "the current form of Genesis".   I then checked
the web and found that several places post the entire book in their
websites.  With further checking, I also learned that most scholars
think that this book is a fake one.  Before I gave up, I went back to
read a little bit more.  I was shocked that there are quite a few
passages that I thought unique in the GoTh but shown in the GoH12.  I
therefore took some efforts translating entire English text of the
book into Chinese and coded different sources with different colors
for my research purposes.  I also highlighted those places related to
GoTh and wrote commentaries based on my biblical research in
vegetarian and my study in Essene. Because the earliest edition I
could find is the 1923 version of GoH12, I decided to visit the
British Library.  But the librarians of BL told me that their earlier
version copies of the GoH12 were destroyed during the WWII.  Because
my research is incomplete, I could not publish anything with it.  I
have two plans in my mind:
(1) If the earlier version of GoH12 contains the same GoTh material as
the later versions, I will publish my color coded Chinese GoH12
translation.
(2) If the earlier version of GoH12 does not contain the same GoTh
material as the later versions, I will not publish my Chinese
translation.  However, I will write a paper reporting my investigation
of the GoH12.

I am stuck now.  Can anybody in this group help?

Andew:  You know more scholars in the field of GoTh.  Does anybody
study this kind of thing?  I will be more than happy to discuss my
research with the individual who has studied this area.  By the time
this thing becomes clear, Chinese can be a major language.  That is
why I write everything in Chinese now :-).

In my Chinese GoTh book, I did quote some GoH12 texts for those places
highly associated with GoTh verses.  But I did point out in the book
that that the information complied in the GoH12 is considered fake in
the biblical society.  However, there are some overlapped between the
GoH12 and the GoTh for unknown reasons.

On the other hand, if the author(s) of GoH12 intended to compile
gospel material become one book as the author of current Geneses did.
  It may be interesting to find out which part of the GoTh is fake and
which part may come from somewhere or nowhere but helpful or
interesting.  For a long time, oriental spiritual approaches such as
Da-Jern Jin do embrace all trustful and qualified fake ones for
everybody's critical review.


Benedict

(I'm sorry! There are typos in the last paragraph that I must correct
them)
....
On the other hand, if the author(s) of the GoH12 intended to compile
gospel material in his view become one set of collection as the author
of current version of the Genesis did, it maybe interesting to find out
which part of the "GoH12" is fake and which part may come from
somewhere or nowhere but helpful or interesting.  For a long time,
oriental spiritual approaches such as the Da-Jern Jin do embrace all
trustful and qualified fake ones for readers' critical review.


Benedict

Time and again, I find myself stumbling over the term "Christian",
      i.e. Christian Gnostic, Christian Jew, Pauline Christianity, etc.
       What is Christianity? Am I wrong in thinking Christianity is the worship
of
      the Resurrected Jesus? I understand "Christ" is Greek for Messiah,
      but above and beyond that, the "Resurrection" is the foremost principal of
      Christianity; is it not? Past and present?
        Dave R.






---------------------------------
Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover
  Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi benedict,

If you post the parallels between Thomas and GHoly12 we could discuss
them. It looks like Ousley used known agrapha when he constructed the
gospel. The preface claimed "...Their Gospel of the Holy Twelve was
communicated to the Editors, in numerous fragments at different times,
by Emmanuel Swedenborg, Anna Kingsford, Edward Maitland, and a priest
of the former century, giving his name as Placidus, of the Franciscan
Order, afterwards a Carmelite. By them it was as translated from the
original, and given to the Editors in the flesh, to be supplemented in
their proper places, where indicated, from the "Four Gospels" (A.V.)
revised where necessary by the same."

Best Wishes

Andrew

   --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "benedictlo1" <benedictlo1@y...> wrote:
>
> A few years ago, my friend introduced me about the Gospel of Holy 12
> (GoH12), I quickly scanned it and found that it is a book compiled
> canonical gospels and other things with vegetarian episodes.  It made
> me immediately think "the current form of Genesis".   I then checked
> the web and found that several places post the entire book in their
> websites.  With further checking, I also learned that most scholars
> think that this book is a fake one.  Before I gave up, I went back to
> read a little bit more.  I was shocked that there are quite a few
> passages that I thought unique in the GoTh but shown in the GoH12.  I
> therefore took some efforts translating entire English text of the
> book into Chinese and coded different sources with different colors
> for my research purposes.  I also highlighted those places related to
> GoTh and wrote commentaries based on my biblical research in
> vegetarian and my study in Essene. Because the earliest edition I
> could find is the 1923 version of GoH12, I decided to visit the
> British Library.  But the librarians of BL told me that their earlier
> version copies of the GoH12 were destroyed during the WWII.  Because
> my research is incomplete, I could not publish anything with it.  I
> have two plans in my mind:
> (1) If the earlier version of GoH12 contains the same GoTh material as
> the later versions, I will publish my color coded Chinese GoH12
> translation.
> (2) If the earlier version of GoH12 does not contain the same GoTh
> material as the later versions, I will not publish my Chinese
> translation.  However, I will write a paper reporting my investigation
> of the GoH12.
>
> I am stuck now.  Can anybody in this group help?
>
> Andew:  You know more scholars in the field of GoTh.  Does anybody
> study this kind of thing?  I will be more than happy to discuss my
> research with the individual who has studied this area.  By the time
> this thing becomes clear, Chinese can be a major language.  That is
> why I write everything in Chinese now :-).
>
> In my Chinese GoTh book, I did quote some GoH12 texts for those places
> highly associated with GoTh verses.  But I did point out in the book
> that that the information complied in the GoH12 is considered fake in
> the biblical society.  However, there are some overlapped between the
> GoH12 and the GoTh for unknown reasons.
>
> On the other hand, if the author(s) of GoH12 intended to compile
> gospel material become one book as the author of current Geneses did.
>  It may be interesting to find out which part of the GoTh is fake and
> which part may come from somewhere or nowhere but helpful or
> interesting.  For a long time, oriental spiritual approaches such as
> Da-Jern Jin do embrace all trustful and qualified fake ones for
> everybody's critical review.
>
>
> Benedict
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "benedictlo1" <benedictlo1@...>
To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 10:14 PM
Subject: [GTh] A preliminarily work on a few passages in GHoly12 associated
with GThomas


> A few years ago, my friend introduced me about the Gospel of Holy 12
> (GoH12), I quickly scanned it and found that it is a book compiled
> canonical gospels and other things with vegetarian episodes.  It made
> me immediately think "the current form of Genesis".   I then checked
> the web and found that several places post the entire book in their
> websites.  With further checking, I also learned that most scholars
> think that this book is a fake one.  Before I gave up, I went back to
> read a little bit more.  I was shocked that there are quite a few
> passages that I thought unique in the GoTh but shown in the GoH12.

Some of the parallels listed on websites between GHoly12 and
the Gospel of Thomas are also found in other non-canonical
sources

For example from GHoly12

As it is above, so it is below. As it is within, so it is without. As on the
right hand, so on the left. As it is before, so it is behind. As with the
great so with the small. As with the male, so with the female. When these
things shall be seen, then ye shall see the kingdom of God



And one said unto him, Master, when shall the kingdom come? And he answered
and said, When that which is without shall be as that which is within, and
that which is within shall be as that which is without, and, the male with
the female, neither male nor female, but the two in One. They who have ears
to hear, let them hear.



These passages have numerous parallels outside of the
Gospel of Thomas including 2 Clement, the Gospel of the
Egyptians according to Clement of Alexandria, and various
Apocryphal Acts..



Andrew Criddle

> Hi benedict,
>
> If you post the parallels between Thomas and GHoly12 we could
discuss them.
>[snip]
> Andrew

I am sure that I have not exhausted all the potential correlated
materials.  So let me post the first set of my problems below. Your
and/or others' help are greatly appreciated.

Benedict

[ I use " xxxx " to indicate correlected text. ]
=========================================
GH12 - 88:5
"And Jesus said, I stood in the midst of the world, and in
the flesh was I seen and heard, and I found all men glutted with their
own pleasures, and drunk with their own follies, and none found I
hungry or athirst for the wisdom which is of God. My soul grieveth
over the sons and daughters of men because they are blind in their
heart, and in their soul are they deaf and hear not my voice."

GTh – 28 (Greek)
"Jesus saith: I stood in the midst of the world, and in the flesh was
I seen of them, and I found and men drunken, and none found I athirst
among them, and my soul grieveth over the sons of men because they are
blind in their heart."

==========================
GH12 – 27:12
…. But a city which is built foursquare, enclosed in a circle or on
the top of a hill, and "established on a rock, can neither fall" nor
be hidden.

GH12 – 39:6
Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a City "built foursquare on
the top of a high hill, and established on a rock, and strong in its
surrounding wall", and its towers and its gates, which lie to the
north, and to the south, and to the east, and to the west.  Such a
city falleth not, neither can it be hidden,…

GTh – 32
A city built upon the top of a hill "and fortified, can neither fall"
nor be hidden.

============================
GH12 – 13:5
And he said: Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own
home or in his own country, "neither doth a physician work cures upon
them that know him."

GTh - 31
Jesus said, A prophet is not … . "Nor does a physican perform healings
for those who know him."

============================
GH12 - 39:5
Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a woman who taketh of the
incorruptible leaven and hideth it in three measures of meal, till the
whole is leavened, and being baked by fire, "becometh one loaf." …

GTh - 96
Jesus said, The Father's kingdom is like a woman. She took a ..., and
"made it into large loaves of bread"...

============================
GH12 - 19:6
"Raise the Stone, and there thou shall find me. Cleave the wood, and
there am I." For in the fire and in the water even as in every living
form, God is manifest as it's Life and it's Substance.

GTh – 30 (Greek)
Jesus said, …, I say, I am with him. "Lift the stone and there you
will find me. Split the wood and I am there."

============================
(The following ones are not in the sense of words but in meaning)
GH12 -  64:7
"From the Eternal they flow, to the Eternal they return." The spirit
to Spirit, soul to Soul, mind to Mind, sense to Sense, life to Life,
form to Form, dust to Dust.

GH12 -  94:2
"As all creatures come forth from the unseen into this world, so they
return to the unseen, and so will they come again till they be purified."


GTh - 49
Jesus said: Congratulations to those who are alone and chosen, for you
will find the kingdom. "For you have come from it, and you will return
there again."

GTh - 77
Jesus said: "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me
all came forth, and to me all attained."
=============================================

Benedict,

The simple answer is that Ousley used the Oxyrhynchus Greek fragments
of Thomas published by Grenfell and Hunt in 1898 and 1904. The sayings
below that aren't in the Greek Thomas fragments have synoptic
parallels which would have been Ouseley's source.

Best Wishes

Andrew

--- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "benedictlo1" <benedictlo1@y...> wrote:
>
> > Hi benedict,
> >
> > If you post the parallels between Thomas and GHoly12 we could
> discuss them.
> >[snip]
> > Andrew
>
> I am sure that I have not exhausted all the potential correlated
> materials.  So let me post the first set of my problems below. Your
> and/or others' help are greatly appreciated.
>
> Benedict
>
> [ I use " xxxx " to indicate correlected text. ]
> =========================================
> GH12 - 88:5
> "And Jesus said, I stood in the midst of the world, and in
> the flesh was I seen and heard, and I found all men glutted with their
> own pleasures, and drunk with their own follies, and none found I
> hungry or athirst for the wisdom which is of God. My soul grieveth
> over the sons and daughters of men because they are blind in their
> heart, and in their soul are they deaf and hear not my voice."
>
> GTh – 28 (Greek)
> "Jesus saith: I stood in the midst of the world, and in the flesh was
> I seen of them, and I found and men drunken, and none found I athirst
> among them, and my soul grieveth over the sons of men because they are
> blind in their heart."
>
> ==========================
> GH12 – 27:12
> …. But a city which is built foursquare, enclosed in a circle or on
> the top of a hill, and "established on a rock, can neither fall" nor
> be hidden.
>
> GH12 – 39:6
> Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a City "built foursquare on
> the top of a high hill, and established on a rock, and strong in its
> surrounding wall", and its towers and its gates, which lie to the
> north, and to the south, and to the east, and to the west.  Such a
> city falleth not, neither can it be hidden,…
>
> GTh – 32
> A city built upon the top of a hill "and fortified, can neither fall"
> nor be hidden.
>
> ============================
> GH12 – 13:5
> And he said: Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own
> home or in his own country, "neither doth a physician work cures upon
> them that know him."
>
> GTh - 31
> Jesus said, A prophet is not … . "Nor does a physican perform healings
> for those who know him."
>
> ============================
> GH12 - 39:5
> Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a woman who taketh of the
> incorruptible leaven and hideth it in three measures of meal, till the
> whole is leavened, and being baked by fire, "becometh one loaf." …
>
> GTh - 96
> Jesus said, The Father's kingdom is like a woman. She took a ..., and
> "made it into large loaves of bread"...
>
> ============================
> GH12 - 19:6
> "Raise the Stone, and there thou shall find me. Cleave the wood, and
> there am I." For in the fire and in the water even as in every living
> form, God is manifest as it's Life and it's Substance.
>
> GTh – 30 (Greek)
> Jesus said, …, I say, I am with him. "Lift the stone and there you
> will find me. Split the wood and I am there."
>
> ============================
> (The following ones are not in the sense of words but in meaning)
> GH12 -  64:7
> "From the Eternal they flow, to the Eternal they return." The spirit
> to Spirit, soul to Soul, mind to Mind, sense to Sense, life to Life,
> form to Form, dust to Dust.
>
> GH12 -  94:2
> "As all creatures come forth from the unseen into this world, so they
> return to the unseen, and so will they come again till they be
purified."
>
>
> GTh - 49
> Jesus said: Congratulations to those who are alone and chosen, for you
> will find the kingdom. "For you have come from it, and you will return
> there again."
>
> GTh - 77
> Jesus said: "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me
> all came forth, and to me all attained."
> =============================================
>

Dave writes:

>         Time and again, I find myself stumbling over the term
> "Christian",
>      i.e. Christian Gnostic, Christian Jew, Pauline Christianity, etc.
>       What is Christianity? Am I wrong in thinking
> Christianity is the worship of
>      the Resurrected Jesus? I understand "Christ" is Greek
> for Messiah,
>      but above and beyond that, the "Resurrection" is the
> foremost principal of
>      Christianity; is it not? Past and present?

I think that Christianity is defined differently for different purposes and
it depends quite a bit on who is defining it.  I suspect that some of my
colleagues in the local ministers' fellowship privately think that I am not
a Christian because I don't try to 'convert' the Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus
and Pagans on campus.  I know that during the current contraversy about
homosexuality in my denomination both sides are saying that the other side
has stepped outside the bounds of Christianity (which is perhaps not *quite*
the same as saying they're not Christians).  Mormons consider themselves
Christian whereas many (other) Christian groups would say that they are not
because they give scriptural status to other writings than the orthodox
Christian canon.

However, I think that Christianity is more than 'the worshiop of the
resurrected Jesus'.  Fundamental to Christianity is recognition of Jesus as
both the Messiah foretold in the Hebrew scriptures and also the Son of God.
Trinitarian Christians (the majority) say that he is/was in fact God, part
of a Godhead comprising the Father (creator). Son (Jesus - God in human
form) and Spirit.  Unitarian Christians do not recognise Jesus as divine.
In addition, there is the understanding that faith in Jesus brings
forgiveness of sins and therefore eternal life (or eternal life in heaven
rather than hell).  I was called an agent of Satan by one of my colleagues
last year, which I am *almost certain* means that he doesn't consider me to
be a Christian, despite the fact that I have a fairly orthodox set of
beliefs around the nature and place of Jesus. :-)

I think that terms like Christian Gnostic and Christian Jew are often sloppy
uses of language.  A Jewish Christian is someone who has converted from
Judaism to Christianity and therefore brings a particular worldview and set
of beliefs with him/her.  Following that analogy, therefore, a Christian Jew
should be someone who has converted from Christianity to Judaism, but it may
well indicate someone who has a belief structure that combines aspects of
both faiths.    A Christian gnostic is probably someone who includes Jesus
as part of the pantheon of gnosticism.  I am not really on top of current
understandings of gnosticism, but as I understand it, belief in Jesus as
part of the pantheon is not a necessary feature of gnosticism.

Pauline Christianity is a term often used to describe the particular
features of Christianity expounded in the Pauline epistles.  Paul wrote
before any of the gospels were written and he was interested in how to help
budding (largely gentile) Christian communities in Greece, Rome and Asia
Minor to deal with the demands of living Christian lives.  Mostly he talks
about practical issues like whether or not it was OK to eat meat offered to
idols, did male gentile converts need to be circumcised, should people who
converted without their spouse remain married or divorce the non-Christian
spouse etc.  He wasn't interested in the circumstances surrounding Jesus'
birth or life, the stories he told, the fights he got into with the Jewish
authorities - who Jesus was as a person, in fact - just in the significant
of his death and resurrection for believers.  Something I was reading
recently put this much better than I have, but I can't remember exactly what
it was and I wasn't looking for that info, so I didn't take note.  It's
highly likely to be in Robinson and Koester's "Trajectories through Early
Christianity" but I don't guarantee it.

Judy

> Benedict,
>
> The simple answer is that Ousley used the Oxyrhynchus Greek fragments
> of Thomas published by Grenfell and Hunt in 1898 and 1904. The sayings
> below that aren't in the Greek Thomas fragments have synoptic
> parallels which would have been Ouseley's source.
>
> Best Wishes
>
> Andrew


Andrew:

I believe others investigators including myself would have a similar
answer.  To be fair, we need to find the earliest version of GH12
(1892-189?), to prove that these were not in there and junk it.

However, personally I like several chapters made up or collected from
somewhere in GH12. In terms of quality, some of these are much better
than those collected in old old days by some unknown persons. But many
missionaries from the West come, proclaim that the collection is
nothing but the TRUTH, and push everybody to worship it.

One major reason that I brought GThomas to Chinese people's attention
is because its unequaled quality.  In addition, its spiritual approch
in some way is very similar to the Zen but 500 years earlier.


Benedict

> To be fair, we need to find the earliest version of GH12
> (1892-189?), to prove that these were not in there and junk it.

Gosh, from the preface alone I'd judge it bogus. "Given to us in the flesh"?
Might as well have a red sticker on it.

Mike Grondin
Mt. Clemens, MI

[David Renfro]:
> What is Christianity? Am I wrong in thinking Christianity is the worship
> of
> the Resurrected Jesus? ... the "Resurrection" is the foremost principal of
> Christianity; is it not? Past and present?

I think that this question raises a number of interesting issues. Relevant
to the Gospel of Thomas, it seems to imply that that text isn't Christian,
because there's no indication in it of a belief in J's resurrection. But
what does "resurrection" mean? Some take it to be like resuscitation, others
that he had a new, "spiritual body", still others that the "resurrection"
was a kind of spiritual metaphor ("He lives forever in our hearts", e.g.) I
haven't read the Crossan-Wright book on resurrection yet, but I suspect that
Crossan, like some other "liberal Christians", takes rather the latter view.
Are these folks still Christians? THEY think so, and they certainly show
reverence for the historical figure of Jesus and for what they take to be
his authentic words. They're unorthodox, sure, and so is the Gospel of
Thomas. But does that mean that they aren't Christian - and that it isn't?
Aside from creeds, doesn't the word 'Christian' simply mean a belief that
Jesus was the Messiah - the Christ - the annointed one? That gives him a
special place, but doesn't entail resurrection, still less a particular
interpretation of it. So, yes, I'd say you're wrong - both for past and
present.

Mike Grondin
Mt. Clemens, MI

> Gosh, from the preface alone I'd judge it bogus. "Given to us in the
flesh"?
> Might as well have a red sticker on it.
>
> Mike Grondin
> Mt. Clemens, MI

Mike:

By the same token, after reading the first 50 -100 pages of the BIBLE,
many educated oriental trash it.  Nevertheless, our brains also
collect many bogus that we never want to change.

In GThomas saying 53,"psBbe Mme xM PNA afqN xhu thrf" which is one of
important oriental spiritual approaches.  I believe that some of you
also buy it but rarely do it.

Let me come back to learn more GThomas from you guys.

Benedict

Absolutely right, Dave.

SJG

At 06:35 18/01/2006 -0800, you wrote:
>         Time and again, I find myself stumbling over the term "Christian",
>      i.e. Christian Gnostic, Christian Jew, Pauline Christianity, etc.
>       What is Christianity? Am I wrong in thinking Christianity is the
> worship of
>      the Resurrected Jesus? I understand "Christ" is Greek for Messiah,
>      but above and beyond that, the "Resurrection" is the foremost
> principal of
>      Christianity; is it not? Past and present?
>        Dave R.
>


------------
Dr Simon Gathercole
Senior Lecturer in New Testament
University of Aberdeen

01224 272374

David.. Yeah, I think your right.

  I tend to think that the word christian in the
historical context started with Paul's mission. It was
unknown before that and the first followers would not
understand its use or meaning. I am still a member of
the ebionite yahoo group that you and I discoverd a
while back, and they don't buy into any of the
ressurection stuff, but I am not sure that is how 1st
or 2nd century Jewish followers felt. I am not
convinced that the ressurection story is only a
christian invention. It may be that James and the
apostles believed that it ocurred.

  I think the living Jesus is much more interesting
regardless.

  dave [arbuckle]

As I understand it, this is not exclusively a Christian concept, but is accepted
Pharisaical theology which means that the principal cannot be the defining
principal of the movement.

Resurrection is not even exclusive to that particular type of Religious
thinking.

That the physical man Jesus was resurrected, as a demonstration of the
conquest of death, as also in the Lazarus story, may be ONE or the core beliefs.

But just the resurrection is not the defining value of Christianity

Regards,
John Moon
Springfield,Tenn 37172
johnmoon3717@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From _The Meaning of Jesus: Two Visions_, by Borg and Wright:

"We are both committed to the vigorous practice of the Christian faith ...
we both acknowledge Jesus of Nazareth as Lord ..." (p. viii)

"For me, the historical ground of Easter is very simple: the followers of
Jesus, both then and now, contrinued to experience Jesus as a living reality
after his death. In the early Christian community, these experiences
included visions or apparitions of Jesus. I think Paul and others ... had
them. I think the community experienced the power of the Spirit they had
known in Jesus continuing to be and operate" (Borg, p.135)

The phrase "living Jesus" of GThom seems to point to a view very much like
this. It's not J's death that matters (since his "mission" wasn't seen as
sacrificial atonement for the sins of humankind), but rather what he said
and (to their mind) continued to say. Some conservative Christians like
Witherington (in debate with Crossan) will virtually read liberals out of
Christianity, but Wright is a conservative (albeit somewhat unorthodox) and
he hasn't. So if one argues that Thomas isn't Christian on the grounds that
it displays no interest in more orthodox/conservative interpretations of
"resurrection", one would have a hard go of it, I'd think.

Mike Grondin
Mt. Clemens, MI

Michael Grondin wrote:

>>From _The Meaning of Jesus: Two Visions_, by Borg and Wright:
>
>"We are both committed to the vigorous practice of the Christian faith ...
>we both acknowledge Jesus of Nazareth as Lord ..." (p. viii)
>
>"For me, the historical ground of Easter is very simple: the followers of
>Jesus, both then and now, contrinued to experience Jesus as a living reality
>after his death. In the early Christian community, these experiences
>included visions or apparitions of Jesus. I think Paul and others ... had
>them. I think the community experienced the power of the Spirit they had
>known in Jesus continuing to be and operate" (Borg, p.135)
>
>The phrase "living Jesus" of GThom seems to point to a view very much like
>this. It's not J's death that matters (since his "mission" wasn't seen as
>sacrificial atonement for the sins of humankind), but rather what he said
>and (to their mind) continued to say. Some conservative Christians like
>Witherington (in debate with Crossan) will virtually read liberals out of
>Christianity, but Wright is a conservative (albeit somewhat unorthodox) and
>he hasn't. So if one argues that Thomas isn't Christian on the grounds that
>it displays no interest in more orthodox/conservative interpretations of
>"resurrection", one would have a hard go of it, I'd think.
>
>Mike Grondin
>Mt. Clemens, MI
>
>
>

Hello, Mike,

While I agree that a demand for orthodoxy even to the point of belief in
the resurrection is not an appropriate litmus test for what should be
considered a form of ancient Christianity, the name itself implies an
identification of Jesus as "Christ."  That is, it seems to me that there
were movements that followed Jesus and/or his attributed teachings that
would not properly fit the term "Christian."  Can we really consider the
Thomas community "Christian" in the absence of evidence that they
thought Jesus was Christ?

Ed Tyler

Ed writes:
>
> Hello, Mike,
>
> While I agree that a demand for orthodoxy even to the point
> of belief in
> the resurrection is not an appropriate litmus test for what should be
> considered a form of ancient Christianity, the name itself implies an
> identification of Jesus as "Christ."  That is, it seems to me
> that there
> were movements that followed Jesus and/or his attributed
> teachings that
> would not properly fit the term "Christian."  Can we really
> consider the
> Thomas community "Christian" in the absence of evidence that they
> thought Jesus was Christ?

Good point.  OTOH, can we consider them *not* Christian in the absence of
concrete evidence that they didn't?
Given that Thomas displays no interest in any other aspect of Jesus' life
than his teachings and is essentially a sayings source rather than a gospel
like the Christian canonicals, I think it is virtually impossible to know
what Thomas' take on the resurrection is.  What GThos says about
understanding Jesus' words being the key to eternal life (fairly radical
paraphrase, I know) would certainly move it outside the orthodox Protestant
formulation of Christianity where salvation comes by grace through faith
alone, although one might well argue that the role of the Spirit is to give
knowledge so that understanding Christ's teachings might well be the result
of the indwelling of the Spirit that comes with faith in Christ.  The
Catholic understanding gives, I think, more status to one's actions combined
with faith but obviously both these formulations are far newer than GThos.

However, the first ecumenical Council of the church, held in Nicaea in 325
CE, formulated orthodox Christian belief as follows:

"We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and
invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father,
that is, of the substance [ek tes ousias] of the Father, God of God, light
of light, true God of true God, begotten not made, of the same substance
with the Father [homoousion to patri], through whom all things were made
both in heaven and on earth; who for us men and our salvation descended, was
incarnate, and was made man, suffered and rose again the third day, ascended
into heaven and cometh to judge the living and the dead. And in the Holy
Ghost. Those who say: There was a time when He was not, and He was not
before He was begotten; and that He was made our of nothing (ex ouk onton);
or who maintain that He is of another hypostasis or another substance [than
the Father], or that the Son of God is created, or mutable, or subject to
change, [them] the Catholic Church anathematizes."

(I got this from the Catholic Encyclopaedia and I think that it would be
equally or maybe even more legitimate to use lowercase and say "catholic
church")

Because I am fairly new to the study of GThos and I am investigating
something other than this, I don't wish to be dogmatic but my impression is
that GThos could not be definitively labelled "not Christian" on the basis
of this creed.  Or could it?

Judy

Judy Redman wrote:

>Ed writes:
>
>
>>Hello, Mike,
>>
>>While I agree that a demand for orthodoxy even to the point
>>of belief in
>>the resurrection is not an appropriate litmus test for what should be
>>considered a form of ancient Christianity, the name itself implies an
>>identification of Jesus as "Christ."  That is, it seems to me
>>that there
>>were movements that followed Jesus and/or his attributed
>>teachings that
>>would not properly fit the term "Christian."  Can we really
>>consider the
>>Thomas community "Christian" in the absence of evidence that they
>>thought Jesus was Christ?
>>
>>
>
>Good point.  OTOH, can we consider them *not* Christian in the absence of
>concrete evidence that they didn't?
>
>
That judgment would depend upon several things.  Could you really
*expect* a definitive statement in Thomas to the effect "Jesus said:  'I
am not a Christ'" the way Nixon said "I am not a crook"?  I don't think
so.  So we would have to decide what constitutes convincing evidence
that the Thomas community did not regard Jesus as the Christ.  Would a
complete absence of such an attribution in a text the length of Thomas
constitute such evidence?  While I'm inclined to think so, I wouldn't
bet the farm on it.

I am comfortable in asserting that given the present resources we have
no warrant to label the Thomas community "Christian," if we define the
term as a community that held Jesus to be the Christ.  There is no
problem that I can see in allowing for agnosticism on that point in our
methodology.  If next week another Mohammed Ali comes across another
Coptic library that reveals the Thomas community thought Jesus was the
Christ (whether they made his resurrection a dogma or not) then we'd
need to reevaluate our taxonomy.  But it seems to me to be at least
potentially misleading or confusing to term a community "Christian" if
we have no evidence that they believed in a Christ at all.

Ed Tyler


>Given that Thomas displays no interest in any other aspect of Jesus' life
>than his teachings and is essentially a sayings source rather than a gospel
>like the Christian canonicals, I think it is virtually impossible to know
>what Thomas' take on the resurrection is.  What GThos says about
>understanding Jesus' words being the key to eternal life (fairly radical
>paraphrase, I know) would certainly move it outside the orthodox Protestant
>formulation of Christianity where salvation comes by grace through faith
>alone, although one might well argue that the role of the Spirit is to give
>knowledge so that understanding Christ's teachings might well be the result
>of the indwelling of the Spirit that comes with faith in Christ.  The
>Catholic understanding gives, I think, more status to one's actions combined
>with faith but obviously both these formulations are far newer than GThos.
>
>However, the first ecumenical Council of the church, held in Nicaea in 325
>CE, formulated orthodox Christian belief as follows:
>
>"We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and
>invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father,
>that is, of the substance [ek tes ousias] of the Father, God of God, light
>of light, true God of true God, begotten not made, of the same substance
>with the Father [homoousion to patri], through whom all things were made
>both in heaven and on earth; who for us men and our salvation descended, was
>incarnate, and was made man, suffered and rose again the third day, ascended
>into heaven and cometh to judge the living and the dead. And in the Holy
>Ghost. Those who say: There was a time when He was not, and He was not
>before He was begotten; and that He was made our of nothing (ex ouk onton);
>or who maintain that He is of another hypostasis or another substance [than
>the Father], or that the Son of God is created, or mutable, or subject to
>change, [them] the Catholic Church anathematizes."
>
>(I got this from the Catholic Encyclopaedia and I think that it would be
>equally or maybe even more legitimate to use lowercase and say "catholic
>church")
>
>Because I am fairly new to the study of GThos and I am investigating
>something other than this, I don't wish to be dogmatic but my impression is
>that GThos could not be definitively labelled "not Christian" on the basis
>of this creed.  Or could it?
>
>Judy
>
>

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "benedictlo1" <benedictlo1@...>
> To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 11:48 PM
> Subject: [GTh] Re: A preliminarily work in GHoly12 associated with GThomas
> (parallels?)
>
>
>
> [ I use " xxxx " to indicate correlected text. ]
> =========================================
> GH12 - 88:5
> "And Jesus said, I stood in the midst of the world, and in
> the flesh was I seen and heard, and I found all men glutted with their
> own pleasures, and drunk with their own follies, and none found I
> hungry or athirst for the wisdom which is of God. My soul grieveth
> over the sons and daughters of men because they are blind in their
> heart, and in their soul are they deaf and hear not my voice."
>
> GTh - 28 (Greek)
> "Jesus saith: I stood in the midst of the world, and in the flesh was
> I seen of them, and I found and men drunken, and none found I athirst
> among them, and my soul grieveth over the sons of men because they are
> blind in their heart."
>
> ==========================
> GH12 - 27:12
> .. But a city which is built foursquare, enclosed in a circle or on
> the top of a hill, and "established on a rock, can neither fall" nor
> be hidden.
>
> GH12 - 39:6
> Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a City "built foursquare on
> the top of a high hill, and established on a rock, and strong in its
> surrounding wall", and its towers and its gates, which lie to the
> north, and to the south, and to the east, and to the west.  Such a
> city falleth not, neither can it be hidden,.
>
> GTh - 32
> A city built upon the top of a hill "and fortified, can neither fall"
> nor be hidden.
>
> ============================
> GH12 - 13:5
> And he said: Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own
> home or in his own country, "neither doth a physician work cures upon
> them that know him."
>
> GTh - 31
> Jesus said, A prophet is not . . "Nor does a physican perform healings
> for those who know him."
>
> ============================
> GH12 - 39:5
> Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a woman who taketh of the
> incorruptible leaven and hideth it in three measures of meal, till the
> whole is leavened, and being baked by fire, "becometh one loaf." .
>
> GTh - 96
> Jesus said, The Father's kingdom is like a woman. She took a ..., and
> "made it into large loaves of bread"...
>
> ============================
> GH12 - 19:6
> "Raise the Stone, and there thou shall find me. Cleave the wood, and
> there am I." For in the fire and in the water even as in every living
> form, God is manifest as it's Life and it's Substance.
>
> GTh - 30 (Greek)
> Jesus said, ., I say, I am with him. "Lift the stone and there you
> will find me. Split the wood and I am there."
>
> ============================
Hi Benedict

All the above examples, (except for GH12 - 39:5 //GTh - 96 which
is IMO weak), are found in P Oxyrhynchus 1 this was first published
in 1897 (the other Greek Thomas papyri were published some years
later in 1904

Now from
http://members.tripod.com/jbrooks2/Memoriam_Rev_Ouseley.html
we learn of the GHoly12 that

  "It was first published by instalments in the columns of The Lindsey &
Lincolnshire Star. These were concluded in the early part of 1900,
and at the close of the following year, the First Edition was published,
and further Editions followed. In 1903 a "revised and enlarged"
Edition appears to have been published, and in 1904 a "New and
Complete Edition" was published, the last during Rev. Ouseley's lifetime. "

If this information is accurate then influence of P. Oxy 1 on GHoly12
would seem non-problematic.

Andrew Criddle

(Resend; first message lost in cyber space)

----- Original Message -----
From: "benedictlo1" <benedictlo1@...>
To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 11:48 PM
Subject: [GTh] Re: A preliminarily work in GHoly12 associated with GThomas
(parallels?)



[ I use " xxxx " to indicate correlected text. ]
=========================================
GH12 - 88:5
"And Jesus said, I stood in the midst of the world, and in
the flesh was I seen and heard, and I found all men glutted with their
own pleasures, and drunk with their own follies, and none found I
hungry or athirst for the wisdom which is of God. My soul grieveth
over the sons and daughters of men because they are blind in their
heart, and in their soul are they deaf and hear not my voice."

GTh - 28 (Greek)
"Jesus saith: I stood in the midst of the world, and in the flesh was
I seen of them, and I found and men drunken, and none found I athirst
among them, and my soul grieveth over the sons of men because they are
blind in their heart."

==========================
GH12 - 27:12
.. But a city which is built foursquare, enclosed in a circle or on
the top of a hill, and "established on a rock, can neither fall" nor
be hidden.

GH12 - 39:6
Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a City "built foursquare on
the top of a high hill, and established on a rock, and strong in its
surrounding wall", and its towers and its gates, which lie to the
north, and to the south, and to the east, and to the west.  Such a
city falleth not, neither can it be hidden,.

GTh - 32
A city built upon the top of a hill "and fortified, can neither fall"
nor be hidden.

============================
GH12 - 13:5
And he said: Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own
home or in his own country, "neither doth a physician work cures upon
them that know him."

GTh - 31
Jesus said, A prophet is not . . "Nor does a physican perform healings
for those who know him."

============================
GH12 - 39:5
Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a woman who taketh of the
incorruptible leaven and hideth it in three measures of meal, till the
whole is leavened, and being baked by fire, "becometh one loaf." .

GTh - 96
Jesus said, The Father's kingdom is like a woman. She took a ..., and
"made it into large loaves of bread"...

============================
GH12 - 19:6
"Raise the Stone, and there thou shall find me. Cleave the wood, and
there am I." For in the fire and in the water even as in every living
form, God is manifest as it's Life and it's Substance.

GTh - 30 (Greek)
Jesus said, ., I say, I am with him. "Lift the stone and there you
will find me. Split the wood and I am there."

============================
Hi Benedict

All the above examples, (except for GH12 - 39:5 //GTh - 96 which
is IMO weak), are found in P Oxyrhynchus 1 this was first published
in 1897 (the other Greek Thomas papyri were published some years
later in 1904

Now from
http://members.tripod.com/jbrooks2/Memoriam_Rev_Ouseley.html
we learn of the GHoly12 that

"It was first published by instalments in the columns of The Lindsey &
Lincolnshire Star. These were concluded in the early part of 1900, and at
the close of the following year, the First Edition was published, and
further Editions followed. In 1903 a "revised and enlarged" Edition appears
to have been published, and in 1904 a "New and Complete Edition" was
published, the last during Rev. Ouseley's lifetime. "

If this information is accurate then influence of P. Oxy 1 on GHoly12
would seem non-problematic.

Andrew Criddle

Ed writes:

>  But it seems to me to be at least
> potentially misleading or confusing to term a community
> "Christian" if
> we have no evidence that they believed in a Christ at all.

I agree.  In the case of the Thomas community, I don't think we have
sufficient information to make a definitive statement either way.  On the
basis of the evidence before us the Thomas may or may not have believed in a
Christ and if they did, may or may not have believed that Jesus was the
Christ.  I guess this means that, if we are being careful about our
labelling, we should refer to it as "a document of the early Christian era".

Judy

--
"One can easily understand a child who is afraid of the dark. The real
tragedy of life is when grown men and women are afraid of the light." -
Plato

Rev Judy Redman
Uniting Church Chaplain
University of New England
Armidale 2351
ph:  +61 2 6773 3739
fax: +61 2 6773 3749
web:  http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
email:  jredman@...


> -----Original Message-----
> From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lee Edgar Tyler
> Sent: Saturday, 21 January 2006 1:26 PM
> To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [GTh] Is Thomas Christian?
>
>
> Judy Redman wrote:
>
> >Ed writes:
> >
> >
> >>Hello, Mike,
> >>
> >>While I agree that a demand for orthodoxy even to the point
> >>of belief in
> >>the resurrection is not an appropriate litmus test for what
> should be
> >>considered a form of ancient Christianity, the name itself
> implies an
> >>identification of Jesus as "Christ."  That is, it seems to me
> >>that there
> >>were movements that followed Jesus and/or his attributed
> >>teachings that
> >>would not properly fit the term "Christian."  Can we really
> >>consider the
> >>Thomas community "Christian" in the absence of evidence that they
> >>thought Jesus was Christ?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Good point.  OTOH, can we consider them *not* Christian in
> the absence
> >of concrete evidence that they didn't?
> >
> >
> That judgment would depend upon several things.  Could you really
> *expect* a definitive statement in Thomas to the effect
> "Jesus said:  'I
> am not a Christ'" the way Nixon said "I am not a crook"?  I
> don't think
> so.  So we would have to decide what constitutes convincing evidence
> that the Thomas community did not regard Jesus as the Christ.
>  Would a
> complete absence of such an attribution in a text the length
> of Thomas
> constitute such evidence?  While I'm inclined to think so, I wouldn't
> bet the farm on it.
>
> I am comfortable in asserting that given the present
> resources we have
> no warrant to label the Thomas community "Christian," if we
> define the
> term as a community that held Jesus to be the Christ.  There is no
> problem that I can see in allowing for agnosticism on that
> point in our
> methodology.  If next week another Mohammed Ali comes across another
> Coptic library that reveals the Thomas community thought
> Jesus was the
> Christ (whether they made his resurrection a dogma or not) then we'd
> need to reevaluate our taxonomy.
> Ed Tyler
>
>
> >Given that Thomas displays no interest in any other aspect of Jesus'
> >life than his teachings and is essentially a sayings source
> rather than
> >a gospel like the Christian canonicals, I think it is virtually
> >impossible to know what Thomas' take on the resurrection is.  What
> >GThos says about understanding Jesus' words being the key to eternal
> >life (fairly radical paraphrase, I know) would certainly move it
> >outside the orthodox Protestant formulation of Christianity where
> >salvation comes by grace through faith alone, although one
> might well
> >argue that the role of the Spirit is to give knowledge so that
> >understanding Christ's teachings might well be the result of the
> >indwelling of the Spirit that comes with faith in Christ.
> The Catholic
> >understanding gives, I think, more status to one's actions combined
> >with faith but obviously both these formulations are far newer than
> >GThos.
> >
> >However, the first ecumenical Council of the church, held in
> Nicaea in
> >325 CE, formulated orthodox Christian belief as follows:
> >
> >"We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of all
> things visible
> >and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only
> begotten of the
> >Father, that is, of the substance [ek tes ousias] of the
> Father, God of
> >God, light of light, true God of true God, begotten not made, of the
> >same substance with the Father [homoousion to patri],
> through whom all
> >things were made both in heaven and on earth; who for us men and our
> >salvation descended, was incarnate, and was made man,
> suffered and rose
> >again the third day, ascended into heaven and cometh to judge the
> >living and the dead. And in the Holy Ghost. Those who say:
> There was a
> >time when He was not, and He was not before He was begotten;
> and that
> >He was made our of nothing (ex ouk onton); or who maintain
> that He is
> >of another hypostasis or another substance [than the
> Father], or that
> >the Son of God is created, or mutable, or subject to change,
> [them] the
> >Catholic Church anathematizes."
> >
> >(I got this from the Catholic Encyclopaedia and I think that
> it would
> >be equally or maybe even more legitimate to use lowercase and say
> >"catholic
> >church")
> >
> >Because I am fairly new to the study of GThos and I am investigating
> >something other than this, I don't wish to be dogmatic but my
> >impression is that GThos could not be definitively labelled "not
> >Christian" on the basis of this creed.  Or could it?
> >
> >Judy
> >
> >
>
>
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