Hi Gerry,
have you had ever a reincarnation experience?
And what personal revelations have you received, if you want to
share?

I myself had a dream as a child, very early, and I have no
explanation for it. I dreamt something, but from it I knew that this
could not have been me dreaming, because I was so young. I concluded
that this must have dreamt a male person about the age of 35.
I was approx. 5years at that time. I don;t know much about
reincarnation, but certainly I have not forgotten about this dream,
because it was so extraordinary. Do you know what Gnosticism has to
say on reincarnation? I want to break the circle. It's a sad state.
Yesterday, I had a funny revelation: As I was pondering and reciting
in my mind the most fundamental principles of gnosticism, two things
happened. I understood that since the Ego is the psychological counter
[part of the demiurge, it is blind and creating its own world, a
world of mistakes, unreality...Any salvation when it is supposed to
come won't reach us as long as we are in the Ego-state. It came to me
as more of a "gnostic" experience I have to say, not exactly as an
intellectual conclusion at all. But simultaneously, I adopted this
understanding and asked where am I then. And the answer came you are
not even here (where I was standing), you are there, someplace else.
And I felt that only this part of me, never the Ego, could be
reconciled with God. Then, I felt that I was already reconciled with
God. And everything was perfect. Shortly after that while being in
this state of understanding that a part of me unknown not the ego, I
suppressed it, was already "accepted" by a higher being. I felt very
happy. Then I was lifted up, mentally, and I was afraid, so the
feeling left me. I walked home.
Martin

Hello everybody,

I wanted to ask, whether someone of you had a reincarnation exerience
of some sort. I remember a dream I had as a child that I dreamt a
dream of someone else and I felt an overlap of mine and someone elses
presence and existence. I have to say that this someone is me. Today
I know that either that was reincarnation or it was merely a
psychological phenomenon I have no clear explanation for yet.
Martin

To all authors who defend their denominations: You are of the evil,
and have not yet been offered the gift of knowledge. This is all I
can say. I would never argue about church principles and doctrines.
Who are you? Are you an authority of the Catholic Church? There are
psychological reasons for this behaviour, when people vehemently
defend their positions, religious beliefs and ridicule, and offend
others. To all such individuals can be said that they have not known
yet a world beyond this. Because then there would be no need to
discuss worldy matters and beliefs. They have not been through the
sufficient amount of suffering and inner turmoil, which gives rise to
a higher consciousness.

The Holy Mass needs not to be discussed by anybody. What difference
does it make if the wine has alcohol or not? Materialists view these
things important however. The things we do in this world, have a
foundation on a mystical, spiritual level. Unfortunately too, not
much of the original idea is left. Arguing about whether wine should
have alcohol, what food to consume or not, are good examples of
subjects not-knowers are so keen about discussing, arguing and
defending. People who post these messages, have not been offered the
gift of grace to understand things and acquire the necessary
knowledge, i.e. the gnosis. They have not suffered yet. They have
been nurtured by their ego and kept from the reality. They lack an
awakening.Martin

--- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "martin12617" <martin12617@y...>
wrote:
> To all authors who defend their denominations: You are of the evil,
> and have not yet been offered the gift of knowledge. This is all I
> can say. I would never argue about church principles and doctrines.
> Who are you? Are you an authority of the Catholic Church? There are
> psychological reasons for this behaviour, when people vehemently
> defend their positions, religious beliefs and ridicule, and offend
> others. To all such individuals can be said that they have not
known
> yet a world beyond this. Because then there would be no need to
> discuss worldy matters and beliefs. They have not been through the
> sufficient amount of suffering and inner turmoil, which gives rise
to
> a higher consciousness.


Hello, Martin.  Please review messages #7908 and #7909 for discussion
explaining this original post.  I would also suggest that you refrain
from inflammatory words, calling people "evil" in regards to your
idea of their spiritual maturity.

Thank you.


Cari

--- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "martin12617" <martin12617@y...>
wrote:
> The Holy Mass needs not to be discussed by anybody. What difference
> does it make if the wine has alcohol or not? Materialists view
these
> things important however. The things we do in this world, have a
> foundation on a mystical, spiritual level. Unfortunately too, not
> much of the original idea is left. Arguing about whether wine
should
> have alcohol, what food to consume or not, are good examples of
> subjects not-knowers are so keen about discussing, arguing and
> defending. People who post these messages, have not been offered
the
> gift of grace to understand things and acquire the necessary
> knowledge, i.e. the gnosis. They have not suffered yet. They have
> been nurtured by their ego and kept from the reality. They lack an
> awakening.Martin


Again, Martin, if you don't feel the "Holy Mass" needs to be
discussed, why bring it up as a topic of discussion.  Also, we will
not tolerate incendiary comments about your opinion of who
understands what or who lacks awakening.

That said, there is every possibility that some members here who are
familiar with sacraments might offer some insight into the use of
food and drink that differs from your materialistic interpretation of
such.


Cari

Anyone here read this one? I'm at the moment plowing through this
dense piece of work. Quite a bit to digest it is.

Hello martin12617

On 01-Jul-03, you wrote:

> The Holy Mass needs not to be discussed by anybody. What difference
> does it make if the wine has alcohol or not? Materialists view these
> things important however. The things we do in this world, have a
> foundation on a mystical, spiritual level. Unfortunately too, not
> much of the original idea is left. Arguing about whether wine should
> have alcohol, what food to consume or not, are good examples of
> subjects not-knowers are so keen about discussing, arguing and
> defending. People who post these messages, have not been offered the
> gift of grace to understand things and acquire the necessary
> knowledge, i.e. the gnosis. They have not suffered yet. They have
> been nurtured by their ego and kept from the reality. They lack an
> awakening.Martin

You have a real talent Martin.  You are the only person who can say
something I agree with and piss me off.  Your holier than thou, put
down attitude is probably the reason.  The content is correct, IMO,
but the way you put it is completely offensive.

Regards
--
Mike Leavitt  ac998@...

Hello ron3702

On 01-Jul-03, you wrote:

> Anyone here read this one? I'm at the moment plowing through this
> dense piece of work. Quite a bit to digest it is.

Years ago, before they were available in the American version of
MEMORIES, DREAMS AND REFLECTIONS, my Bishop, Stephan Hoeller
published a translation of them.  This was in the '70's.  I read them
then, and since, once (maybe in the '80's), but frankly I don't
remember much about the content, except that I can still conjure a
picture of Abraxis just thinking about reading them.

Regards
--
Mike Leavitt  ac998@...

Hello Martin

On 01-Jul-03, you wrote:

> Judi, thank you for sharing that with me! You know that some people
> would think we are nuts.
>
> I myself think I am now living the life of this I would call him
> perpetrator, who captured my body and soul(psyche) and revealed
> himself to me in that dream. Maybe it's still all explainable as a
> psychological phenomenon. But I begin to think, to this extent I am
> lucky, that I am aware of the reincarnation. Most people aren't I
> would say. In the dream, I was 5 or so, I felt odd, I felt betrayed,
> because in that dream I realized what I am dreaming there, this is
> not my usual. And it was like a destiny laid out in front of me. It
> was a declaration of a life lived already. And it was like this this
> is what you will do. A mental rape, that is what reincarnation can
> be. My experience. I don;'t know why it exists, and what my task is.
> But I will have to reconcile me and the soul that reincarnated into
> my body with God. I am praying for me and him. Since most people
> aren't aware of the reincarnation, it happens also without any
> precaution , not very fair. It was not necessarily a wonderful
> gnostic vision, just the plain truth. I guess, I am not special.
> Otherwise, I had a regular life, plenty of misfortunes and
> suffering, but also great works and blessings, because Sophia helped
> me where she could since my arrival here was so messed up. But I am
> glad that I was revealed the course of things. Who knows? But it's
> all true I am writing.
>
> Yesterday, I had a funny revelation: As I was pondering and reciting
> in my mind the most fundamental principles of gnosticism, two things
> happened. I understood that since the Ego is the psychological
> counter[part of the demiurge, it is blind and creating its own
> world, a world of mistakes, unreality...any salvation when it is
> supposed to come won't reach us as long as we are in the Ego-state.
> It came to me as more of a "gnostic" experience I have to say, not
> exactly as an intellectual conclusion at all. But simultaneously, I
> adopted this understanding and asked where am I then. And the answer
> came you are not even here (where I was standing), you are there,
> someplace else. And I felt that only this part of me, never the Ego,
> could be reconciled with God. Then, I felt that I was already
> reconciled with God. And everything was perfect. Shortly after that
> while being in this state of understanding that a part of me unknown
> not the ego, I suppressed it, was already "accepted" by a
> higher being. I felt very happy. Then I was lifted up, mentally,
> and I was afraid, so the feeling left me. I walked home. Peace,
> Martin
> PS This experience was also something I won;t forget. What stroke me
> most was that I understood that beyond the curtain of the ego comes
> salvation,. But then I felt at peace and it was an affirmation that
> I have done good work. Maybe it's an illusion? But I felt happy,
> because it was a special kind of welcome. The feeling went on to
> become something different and I felt very light and I have to admit
> as I walked I was scared because it was mentally lifting me up. So I
> grounded it. Then it disappeared.

One version of reincarnation in the Qabalah is that you have only
three lives to make it.  If you get to the third one you are
overshadowed by a greater soul to help you.  I don't personally
subscribe to this, but it sounds hauntingly like your experience as a
child.  At least you have a proper perception of the ego.  That will
get you a long way.

Regards
--
Mike Leavitt  ac998@...

Hello Gloria

On 01-Jul-03, you wrote:

>That's really neat... I have three daughters (ages 8, 4, and 2), and
>according to a few stories my 4yo has told me, SHE was MY mother in
>a past life also... that is SO cool... I read somewhere that
>oftentimes family members reincarnate with you as family members or
>close friends again in the future (or past).... Also, I had a past
>life dramatization in hypnosis once.... I was trying to figure out
>the reason for my neck and shoulder pain....... In the past life I
>was a male Native American with a wife and very new baby.... I went
>out one day upon a horse and was captured and stabbed by Englishmen
>in the neck.

It is said that the reason we do not remember past lives usually is
because we would live in the past, and it would hinder current
development.  When one does remember, it is usually for a reason,
something we have to learn again from it.

Regards
--
Mike Leavitt  ac998@...

--- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "ron3702" <barroter@a...> wrote:
> Anyone here read this one? I'm at the moment plowing through this
> dense piece of work. Quite a bit to digest it is.

Hi Ron:

Yes, I read it last year and found it to be my favorite of those by
Hoeller!  Often one hears of "modern gnostic texts" and this one is
the only one I've found so far that personally fits that category
neatly and well.

Rusty

Hello Martin

"Yesterday, I had a funny revelation: As I was pondering and reciting
in my mind the most fundamental principles of gnosticism"

In fact, it would be very much to the point of the club if you told
us exactly what you viewed the "fundemental principles of gnosticism"
to be. Past life experience is certainly an interesting enough
subject, but for the most part one that is outside of traditional
Gnostic belief systems. While this does not mean that it is without
value to your personal modern form of Gnosticism, part of the purpose
of this club is to relate or contrast or modern ideas with that of
traditional Gnosticism.

PMCV

pmcvflag writes:
  >
  > In fact, it would be very much to the point of the club if you told
  > us exactly what you viewed the "fundemental principles of gnosticism"
  > to be.

Docetism, Dualism, Pessimism, Misocosmism, and Misonomianism.

Klaus Schilling

Gentlepeople,

If you're interested in the Qabalah (also spelled Kabbalah, Cabala,
etc.) you're invited to check out the Gnostic_News newsletter at
http://groups.yahoo.com/Gnostic_News

Thanks and have a great week.

LVX,
John

--- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "ron3702" <barroter@a...> wrote:
> Anyone here read this one? I'm at the moment plowing through this
> dense piece of work. Quite a bit to digest it is.


Hi, Ron.  Yes, it certainly is that.

Here are some interesting comments from an interview with Gilles
Quispel (close friend of C. G. Jung) by Christopher Farmer (_Gnosis
Magazine_ #1 Fall/Winter 1985, p. 29):

Farmer: Whereas the ancient gnostics took the alternative of the
Unknown Father seriously, Jung certainly did not.

Quispel: Jung was not an atheist, so he did not, nor was he a pan-
psychologist, but he did have a very personal concept of God.  As he
would say to his friends:  "I can't express myself," although he did
once in the _Septem Sermones ad Mortuos_ (1916).  And you will see
him, in all his later works, trying to formulate what he had
experienced then, in 1915, in a scholarly way.  But he was furious,
for example, when Martin Buber identified him with the gnostics,
because he thought that his purpose and experience was different.
And I think he was right.  For him, light and darkness and that whole
grim oceanic feeling which man has come from, is a real issue: making
light out of darkness—the alchemical process.

--- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
wrote:
> real issue: making light out of darkness—the alchemical process.


The Magic of the alchemical process is not to make light out of the
Darkness it is to separate the Light from, out of, the Darkness.

Alchemy, the Process of Enlightenment, the ability to see, recognize,
Realities that are not readily apparent, Dark Matter.

When you separated the Light from, out of, the Darkness, your are
bringing to light a Reality that is not Readily apparent to the
Senses, can not be seen in the ordinary light of Reality, the Light
of Day.

By the Light of the Silvery Moon.---------->O

>>>I think one of us is in the wrong club.<<<<

Well, you may be right, Martin, in saying that one of us is in the
wrong club. However, since I am one of the founders here, and one of
the people who chose exactly what the topic of this club is intended
to be.... that wrong person would have to be you.

>>>I think you limit the purpose of the "club"<<<

You are absolutely right Martin, I do limit the purpose of this club.
The club has a specific purpose which the co-founders and myself have
created, and we are not going to change that purpose to the
discussion of Nascar, or Scooby Doo.... I am sure there are already
clubs for that.

>>>I think Gnosis, Gnosticism is a very broad subject with certainly
common elements.<<<<

Well, your definition is fine for you. However, for this clubs
purpose the term "Gnosticism" refers only to the word as it was
coined by the scholors who have been instrumental in it's creation.
Just as we are no here to talk about Nascar, we are not here to talk
about alternative layperson definitions of what "Gnosticism" is....
there are already other clubs for that as well.

Think of this club as a seminar format university class. There are
the professors who teach the class, there are visiting professors who
contribute a great deal, and there are the students who are allowed
to interact as long as the class stays on topic. This club is like
that university study format. The club has a stated purpose, it has
acceptable an inacceptable subject matter (and behavior), and anyone
who is here is here as a guest based on their interest in the subject
at hand, and thier presence is at the discression of the person who
is running the class.

So, you may now be asking "well, what is the subject then?". The
subject is specifically to deal with traditional (historical) forms
of that academic invention called "Gnosticism" as well as how they
effect our modern selves.

You do raise a point that is on topic....

>>>The reincarnation you are right I admit not a universally followed
doctrine or concept within the traditional Gnostic traditions.<<<<

To some extent we have come across this topic a few times. There are
mentions of transmigration in Gnostic (and realated) sources, we have
debated the possibility of metempsychosis as well. There are no
mentions that I can think of where "reincarnation" is talked about in
Gnostic sources though (maybe I have forgotton one somewhere). So,
not only is it not a "universally followed doctrine", I question
question if it is a doctrin that any Gnostic group believed in.

However, this does not mean that a modern person is not justified in
thier personal belief. But, there is something more. An interesting
subject could be whether reincarnation can be reconciled with the
notions of spirit seen in various Gnostic sects. For instance, the
belief we see in some texts that spirit is something put on, like a
vest, as opposed to an innate quality in every human. To take that
idea to it's conclusion would make reincarnation a very difficult
juxteposition (since those without the spirit would simply die, and
those with the spirit would have laready found "Gnosis" and thus
achieved release from the world) Aother example would be the
Manichaean belief that spirit holds no memory, and that it is
recycled. This would make the "past life" experience impossible.

Anyways, I am not forwarding any specific theory myself, merely
pointing out how reincarnation certainly cannot work with all forms
of "biblical demiurgy" movements. Surely there were some that may
have believed in it though.

PMCV

I would like to know please, if someone experienced any "revelation"
of the kind I describe.  I don;t know what has taken place already,
while I am still here in the body. My life goes on as previously,
although I have a feeling of having made it already. I don;t want to
sound arrogant. But it's a feeling one has after graduation.
But something occurred, I at least hope that something happened. I am
actually sure something happened, but I dont know as to what.

I only first pondered about life, and the creation and the current
condition. I affirmed my stand mentally with a vivid picture, and
then again affirmed. I perceived the world through the eyes of a
Gnostic and I did it thoroughly.

Soon enough,it came to me that the Ego must be, maybe only the
current most real experienced persona of the Ego(as there are many)
to be more precise, must be "suppressed". How did I do it? By looking
behind the curtain. By realizing that one is not even here. (that I
am not even here) Pretty odd thought, I don;t know why it came to me.
Then I asked: where am I, if I am not here, evidently contrary to the
physical senses. (shows that the Ego, or persona with its sensation
aspect would not appreciate any other reality)

Then I understood that my presence, my body and my persona are a mask.
I viewed through them, literally.

I am someplace else; this was a liberating moment. I laughed. I
laughed at all moments, in which I was afraid and terrified. I was
not even there. The battle that was going on was within the psyche.
Yet I was not given where this locality is.

After the curtain was lifted, two things happened. Knowing then
that "me" was not here, I realized that the reconciliation with God
or that what we aspire to, can only take place when this other part
of us acts, not the Ego or persona.  But this was not enough: I did
not just meet something or somebody, eventhough the feeling was
liberating.  I was now assured that I made it. Good work done! I
asked really? My initial frowning turned into more confidence. Maybe
I was not such a nasty fella after all. ( I use again and I dont know
why, the allegory with the curtain and the graduation: After it was
lift, I felt free. Then I received a handshake, not a hug to be
truthful. And an assurance that you have battled and stood but now
it's ok, as if the rest of my life was useless...)

The course of events had its climax too. Again, I don;t know what
occurred on the spiritual level, but psychologically, I can reiterate
that knowing and having this understanding that a part of me unknown
previously, simply by realizing I am not here where I am standing, by
showing behind the curtain of the persona, was accepted and rewarded
(!), I was lifted up high. It was not a state of diziness ... for
this feeling is heavy. It was a feeling of I have to say,
transcendence.
The mind was "sucked up" in a channel of curl and yet it was so
light. The skull was not a limit. It was radiant. But I had no clear
vision. I explain only the emotional part of it. So light that I felt
afraid. My feet were on the ground, but I was afraid I was not
touching it anymore. Afraid again of what was taking place, I pushed
the feeling away, grounded it, not forcily, for it went away by
itself after I left it.

How can this experience be reconciled with the Gnostic teachings?
I am in good physical and hope also mental health.

If this was gnosis, I did not have a revelation of where I came from
nor where I am going. But I understood that a part of me is someplace
far away and this part was rewarded, and then I felt the feeling of
uplifting and transcendence.  I appreciate any comment that can help
me to understand my experience. Thanks, Martin

I have a response to 9.11 or a comment to make.
I consider myself Gnostic, and I am aware of the distinction between
the "true God" who is more human than the one, which created the body
and the psyche alone or with the help of the archons.
We know from the bible that Yehovah mostly resembles the demiurge; he
has not been too kind to humanity for instance when he flooded
humanity like rats, allegedly for their transgressions, insanity,
sodomy all the hebrew baldadash.

However, Yehovah is still with us. Eventhough I don;t pray to
Yehovah, for that would be a quite inhuman undertaking, I came to
understand that one of his principles is indeed Justice as the bible
emphasizes. Some people fed up with their lives and desperate,
miserable, tell me, there is no justice in this world. And I say
wrong, justice is already in the world here and now.
Justice is rooted on a balance concept too.

Inbalance brings about an impulse to restore the balance. I think
Yehovah can't help it, this is the law of the universe.
This is his nature. People act in this game, scenery as tools, or
messangers. Therefore Osama Bin Laden or for this matter, Adolf
Hitler and others are not personally blameable in that sense that
they are the personification of the worst evil etc. They are taking
it literally, for they are a persona so they personify the evil. But
this view is limited. People are tools and messangers.

America so they say has inflicted injustice upon the third world, be
it in matters financial or political. On the Arabs too. Not being
into politics that much, I actually do not need the precise data.
Justice exists, and reminds us that there was an unbalance of
justice, unbalance of power. America has done something to unbalance
the scales of justice (cause), for which the restoration assuredly
came (effect). Sadly, it was an Arab, Osama. He is innocent, it is
the law of this universe, which acted through him. I don't know if
this makes sense, but this is my perception, I hope it can clarify
few things .Martin

Yehovah is also involved in the evolution and again restoration of
justice. He is not adorable, but his nature is obviously reflected in
our worlds, or for this matter on our earth. The Arabs are attacked
by the Americans and their Allies? And why, because two cultures,
worlds collide. Much of the Arab population outside the US and
countries influenced by the western culture, are from an evolutionary
perspective "behind". Primitive thinking and hatred are deeply rooted.
This created an unbalance and calls for a transformation a stirring
up. That it comes through a war, or terror, this is how people are,
according to Yehovah, best reached. Martin

>>>I consider myself Gnostic, and I am aware of the distinction
between the "true God" who is more human than the one, which created
the body and the psyche alone or with the help of the archons.<<<<

Hello again Martin. I thought I would point out that generally in
traditional "Gnosticism" it is exactly the opposite. Traditionally
the "True God" is completely inhuman, seperate, infinite. Any god
with anthropomorphic (human) qualities is considered either inferior,
or downright false. Many times we have posted examples of apophatic
theology from Gnostic texts in here, so I wont bother doing it again,
but merely point out how works like the Tripartite Tractate deny any
human quality, or even definable quality, in the "True God".

PMCV

--- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "martin12617" <martin12617@y...>
wrote:
> I have a response to 9.11 or a comment to make.
> I consider myself Gnostic, and I am aware of the distinction
between
> the "true God" who is more human than the one, which created the
body
> and the psyche alone or with the help of the archons.
> We know from the bible that Yehovah mostly resembles the demiurge;
he
> has not been too kind to humanity for instance when he flooded
> humanity like rats, allegedly for their transgressions, insanity,
> sodomy all the hebrew baldadash.
>
> However, Yehovah is still with us. Eventhough I don;t pray to
> Yehovah, for that would be a quite inhuman undertaking, I came to
> understand that one of his principles is indeed Justice as the
bible
> emphasizes. Some people fed up with their lives and desperate,
> miserable, tell me, there is no justice in this world. And I say
> wrong, justice is already in the world here and now.
> Justice is rooted on a balance concept too.
>
> Inbalance brings about an impulse to restore the balance. I think
> Yehovah can't help it, this is the law of the universe.
> This is his nature. People act in this game, scenery as tools, or
> messangers. Therefore Osama Bin Laden or for this matter, Adolf
> Hitler and others are not personally blameable in that sense that
> they are the personification of the worst evil etc. They are taking
> it literally, for they are a persona so they personify the evil.
But
> this view is limited. People are tools and messangers.
>
> America so they say has inflicted injustice upon the third world,
be
> it in matters financial or political. On the Arabs too. Not being
> into politics that much, I actually do not need the precise data.
> Justice exists, and reminds us that there was an unbalance of
> justice, unbalance of power. America has done something to
unbalance
> the scales of justice (cause), for which the restoration assuredly
> came (effect). Sadly, it was an Arab, Osama. He is innocent, it is
> the law of this universe, which acted through him. I don't know if
> this makes sense, but this is my perception, I hope it can clarify
> few things .Martin