This club is for people who create imaginary cities, countries, and worlds;
constructed languages (conlangs); fictional cultures; dreamy philosophies;
fantasy creatures and people; et cetera.  It is a group for those who let their
imagination free...  Live the art of geofiction!

Would the radiation do anything to change the ice and the water and what
else is there? Would it be water, or what? Isotopes of such or ...

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Ham" <mikeham@...>
To: <geofiction@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 5:34 PM
Subject: RE: [geofiction] Re: Europa sentient and space faring race?


> Mike Adams is me, off/on..
  > One thing that might happen is the upper part of the ice
  > sheet might flow and move and stress? After all how
  > much radiation is it deflecting/protecting and how much
  > energy is being transfered to it? Solar or like to thermal
  > or what?
  > Upper ice might be semi-liquid or what?
  > Or I missed something?

Well, yes, it is theorised that the top-level of the surface is mooshy
(using the strictly scientific wording, of course) because of
the radiation, but also bear in mind, the temperature where this bombardment
occurs is also at -260°F (110°K) or so. So, there's a
constant interaction of ionic heating in very, very freezing temperatures.
In other words, I don't imagine the *entire* ice cap is
slushy, just a thin layer atop.

The primary type of radiation is ionic, but I've not read an indicator as to
how much there is.

You're right about the ice moving around in relation to the rock core.
Afterall, it is theorised that there's an ice sheet floating
on deep watery oceans, unattached to the core rock of the moon, and I read
something about evidence it had happened because of the
poles of the moon moving in relation to the ice.

















------------------------------------

Long Live Geofiction!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/geofiction/
geofiction-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
geofiction-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links

Marriage a contract for property collection and control, or for protection
of those who are weaker, or .... seems marriage has a fw facets, some that
many today do not see or care to see..

Classic is how the puritans did have pre-marital sex, but it was assumed
that the two would be faithful to each other and when the pregnancy was
discovered it was Marriage!

Mohammed married his employer, she needed someone to run things or just a
father for her kids or his kids or it was just a promotion? Love or ...
genes and passing on of, and passing on of property?

The old Mormon idea of plural marriage, often had little to do with sex and
all, but more with protection of the wife and children of the new husbands
now deceased brother? Yes, some cultures have multiple wives as a status
symbol, but also its a way to make sure the fathers genes get passed on, the
classic story of Isacc and his hand maiden and this wife and Ishamail and
Jacob (or it was Jacob and Isacc the son). Oddly in chimp troops, the alpha
male is spending so much time protecting and like, that he is often not the
father of the next generation of children, but he thinks they are his, so he
does not kill them. Infancide is not unknown in Chimp culture.

Yes, until modern times, marriage was something the church recorded
(Catholic and such) but with the need to keep track of property and liquid
capital, the need for records of marriage, as well as last names.

Many Jews in Spanish Netherlands, got last names, some not very flattering,
in part cause of censuses.

Today, its often just to record who the father and mother was/is and who
will provide support? But also now to see about any genetic linked diseases
that follow the bio-parents (egg and sperm donars?).

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "tomhchappell" <tomhchappell@...>
To: <geofiction@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 3:28 PM
Subject: [geofiction] Re: Artificial Wombs?


> ---In geofiction@yahoogroups.com, "sevens" <Anthony.Miles@...> wrote:
>>In the Brunner story, were there any clothing restrictions on the
>>lactating males? Was it acceptable for them to nurse on the bus?
>
> As I recall, and if I recall correctly, indoor-dress for the lactating
> males had the lactating breast and nipple exposed -- the rest of the body,
> including the other breast and nipple, was about as covered as any other
> males.  (Outdoor dress, of course, would depend on the weather.)
>
> A lactating male's rights were the same as a lactating female's rights, as
> far as nursing on the bus etc.; but the males were a deal more assertive
> and insistent about it.
>
> I don't know if it was the Brunner story(ies) or some other stories (maybe
> some Varley stories? maybe some Lafferty or Delaney stories?), but
> generally IIRC there was no pay-differential between males and females in
> most of the stories.
>
> IIRC the issue of gay rights was still politically active although pretty
> much even.  The issues of women's rights and men's rights had pretty much
> been solved long enough to no longer be active.  And there were no racial
> discriminations either.
>
> Divorce was still a political topic, because the government had declared
> that it had no interest in marriage nor in enforcing any contract that
> involved either sex or religion; so marriage-as-it-now-exists no longer
> existed as far as the government was concerned; it was effectively
> "invisible" to the courts and the law and the government.  But, some
> people didn't like that, and very much so.
>
> The big divides were between planet-dwellers, satellite-dwellers,
> asteroid-dwellers, and space-dwellers.  Earth, of course, was the biggest
> population of planet-dwellers.  The inhabitants of the various natural
> satellites of other planets in the Solar system, led the other groups.
> Luna was kind of stuck in the middle; I suppose the same would be true for
> any other natural satellite as massive as or more massive than Luna,
> though Luna would have a denser, hence more numerous, population than any
> of the others.
>
> In various stories, satellites were pitted against planets, Earth-Luna
> against other satellites, Luna against other satellites, asteroid-belters
> against all larger-body inhabitants, Kuyper Belt and Oort Cloud dwellers
> against inner-system dwellers, people who lived in space itself against
> those who dwelt upon or in some natural body like an asteroid or a
> satellite or a planet or a comet, and so on.
>
> The spacedwellers and the trans-Neptunian-object dwellers were not
> numerous enough nor resource-rich enough to ever effectively head-on
> oppose any other group, but they could be influential and even crucial.
>
> Oh, I forgot inner-planets (Earth, Venus, Mercury; maybe Mars?) and
> outer-planets (Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune; maybe Mars?) as one of
> the oppositions that occurred in some stories.

> Mike Adams is me, off/on..
  > One thing that might happen is the upper part of the ice
  > sheet might flow and move and stress? After all how
  > much radiation is it deflecting/protecting and how much
  > energy is being transfered to it? Solar or like to thermal
  > or what?
  > Upper ice might be semi-liquid or what?
  > Or I missed something?

Well, yes, it is theorised that the top-level of the surface is mooshy (using
the strictly scientific wording, of course) because of
the radiation, but also bear in mind, the temperature where this bombardment
occurs is also at -260°F (110°K) or so. So, there's a
constant interaction of ionic heating in very, very freezing temperatures. In
other words, I don't imagine the *entire* ice cap is
slushy, just a thin layer atop.

The primary type of radiation is ionic, but I've not read an indicator as to how
much there is.

You're right about the ice moving around in relation to the rock core. Afterall,
it is theorised that there's an ice sheet floating
on deep watery oceans, unattached to the core rock of the moon, and I read
something about evidence it had happened because of the
poles of the moon moving in relation to the ice.

---In geofiction@yahoogroups.com, "sevens" <Anthony.Miles@...> wrote:
>In the Brunner story, were there any clothing restrictions on the
>lactating males? Was it acceptable for them to nurse on the bus?

As I recall, and if I recall correctly, indoor-dress for the lactating males had
the lactating breast and nipple exposed -- the rest of the body, including the
other breast and nipple, was about as covered as any other males.  (Outdoor
dress, of course, would depend on the weather.)

A lactating male's rights were the same as a lactating female's rights, as far
as nursing on the bus etc.; but the males were a deal more assertive and
insistent about it.

I don't know if it was the Brunner story(ies) or some other stories (maybe some
Varley stories? maybe some Lafferty or Delaney stories?), but generally IIRC
there was no pay-differential between males and females in most of the stories.

IIRC the issue of gay rights was still politically active although pretty much
even.  The issues of women's rights and men's rights had pretty much been solved
long enough to no longer be active.  And there were no racial discriminations
either.

Divorce was still a political topic, because the government had declared that it
had no interest in marriage nor in enforcing any contract that involved either
sex or religion; so marriage-as-it-now-exists no longer existed as far as the
government was concerned; it was effectively "invisible" to the courts and the
law and the government.  But, some people didn't like that, and very much so.

The big divides were between planet-dwellers, satellite-dwellers,
asteroid-dwellers, and space-dwellers.  Earth, of course, was the biggest
population of planet-dwellers.  The inhabitants of the various natural
satellites of other planets in the Solar system, led the other groups.  Luna was
kind of stuck in the middle; I suppose the same would be true for any other
natural satellite as massive as or more massive than Luna, though Luna would
have a denser, hence more numerous, population than any of the others.

In various stories, satellites were pitted against planets, Earth-Luna  against
other satellites, Luna against other satellites, asteroid-belters against all
larger-body inhabitants, Kuyper Belt and Oort Cloud dwellers against
inner-system dwellers, people who lived in space itself against those who dwelt
upon or in some natural body like an asteroid or a satellite or a planet or a
comet, and so on.

The spacedwellers and the trans-Neptunian-object dwellers were not numerous
enough nor resource-rich enough to ever effectively head-on oppose any other
group, but they could be influential and even crucial.

Oh, I forgot inner-planets (Earth, Venus, Mercury; maybe Mars?) and
outer-planets (Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune; maybe Mars?) as one of the
oppositions that occurred in some stories.

Mike Adams is me, off/on..

One thing that might happen is the upper part of the ice sheet might flow
and move and stress? After all how much radiation is it
deflecting/protecting and how much energy is being transfered to it? Solar
or like to thermal or what?

Upper ice might be semi-liquid or what ? Or I missed something?

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Ham" <mikeham@...>
To: <geofiction@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:38 PM
Subject: RE: [geofiction] Re: Europa sentient and space faring race?


> Yesterday, mamercus88@... wrote:
> > I've been reading these posts with interest, but I think you
> > are forgetting that the thick ice of Europa is what protects
> > any aliens from the deadly radiation of Jupiter - a bigger
> > problem than mere heat retention.
>
> Quite on the contrary. The only time I've referred to radiation causing a
> problem for the Octopoids is when they climb out onto the
> surface of the moon. With the most insignificant of atmospheres, Europa
> would be victim to a howling wind of ionic radiation that
> will be a problem for the Octonauts. But, no, below the surface ice, below
> kilometres of water, they're safe.
>
> The only other time I mention radiation is in reference to the sub-ice
> warmth, which it has been suggested (by the scientific paper
> whose abstract I quote) would be come more from the tidal flexing than any
> internal radiative source. That internal source - only
> theorised to exist, mind - would be no more a radioactive bother to the
> Octopoids than it is to Earth's own
> bottom-of-the-ocean-floor ecosystems.
>
> (Please note, there's now a *new* Mike writing here, not the Mike who's
> been the lifeblood of Geofiction for years now.)  :-)
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Long Live Geofiction!
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/geofiction/
> geofiction-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> geofiction-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Yesterday, mamercus88@... wrote:
  > I've been reading these posts with interest, but I think you
  > are forgetting that the thick ice of Europa is what protects
  > any aliens from the deadly radiation of Jupiter - a bigger
  > problem than mere heat retention.

Quite on the contrary. The only time I've referred to radiation causing a
problem for the Octopoids is when they climb out onto the
surface of the moon. With the most insignificant of atmospheres, Europa would be
victim to a howling wind of ionic radiation that
will be a problem for the Octonauts. But, no, below the surface ice, below
kilometres of water, they're safe.

The only other time I mention radiation is in reference to the sub-ice warmth,
which it has been suggested (by the scientific paper
whose abstract I quote) would be come more from the tidal flexing than any
internal radiative source. That internal source - only
theorised to exist, mind - would be no more a radioactive bother to the
Octopoids than it is to Earth's own
bottom-of-the-ocean-floor ecosystems.

(Please note, there's now a *new* Mike writing here, not the Mike who's been the
lifeblood of Geofiction for years now.)  :-)

Too true, but if Europe was a normal planet? Then what? Our atmosphere
protects us from the suns radiation. As seen nicely by the Aurora here in
Alaska.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "mamercus88" <mamercus88@...>
To: <geofiction@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:12 AM
Subject: [geofiction] Re: Europa sentient and space faring race?


> I've been reading these posts with interest, but I think you are
> forgetting that the thick ice of Europa is what protects any aliens from
> the deadly radiation of Jupiter - a bigger problem than mere heat
> retention.
>

It's easy to get an adult rating for Conculturing, thanks to societal taboos.

--- In geofiction@yahoogroups.com, "Abrigon Gusiq" <abrigon@...> wrote:
>
> Yes for RPGing but not done much in it, just.. Yes, wild about the Adult and
> all, or its my adulthumor lists or my often adult erotic or dark poetry?
>
> I do have move, been editing things and noticed that my webpage is not the
> whole item? Some how it got cropped off?
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Ham" <mikeham@...>
> To: <geofiction@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 4:10 PM
> Subject: RE: [geofiction] Abrigon the World
>
>
> > Wow.
> > "(c) 07/23/97,11/98 and 02/00"
> > Am I correct in assuming all this was originally developed for some
> > roleplaying activities?
> > Amusingly, your site got an "adults only" rating by Google.
> >
>

I've been reading these posts with interest, but I think you are forgetting that
the thick ice of Europa is what protects any aliens from the deadly radiation of
Jupiter - a bigger problem than mere heat retention.

--- In geofiction@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Ham" <mikeham@...> wrote:
>
> I can only quickly reply to this: (it's already 2am! eeek!)
> Europa enjoys a far greater energy source than internal radiative decay as
Earth (and others) does in the tidal flexing. Ergo,
> postulating "smokers" on ocean floor.
>
> http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2007NE/finalprogram/abstract_117688.htm
>
> Because of their size, the Galilean moons of Jupiter should not have
sufficient latent energy from accretion to heat their interiors
> to the point of melting. However, the two closest moons, Io and Europa, both
exhibit extensive volcanism on their surfaces. This
> volcanism most likely results from tidal flexing of the moons which leads to
concentration of heat in the interiors. ... It is
> determined that the geothermal gradient of the moons is indeed different under
a tidally heated system than it would be for a system
> heated principally by radioactive decay. The tidally generated temperatures
calculated for the interiors are also several orders of
> magnitude greater than radiogenic temperatures. These thermal gradient also
reaches high temperatures at fairly shallow depths,
> which has implications for the types of lava compositions that would form the
volcanic diapirs on these satellites as well as for
> the interaction of water with Europa's mantle.
>
> This one has a nice picture
>
>
http://web.archive.org/web/20060329000051/http://geology.asu.edu/~glg_intro/plan\
etary/p8.htm
>
> Now, the theory is that since they're swimming around in a watery world, the
Octopoids are relatively unaffected by this pulling and
> pushing (though I guess it MUST affect gravitational forces in the water (like
we have tides) which may give them a sense of "days")
> except in that it produces a nice warm environment for them.
>
> And Europa (we are still talking about Europa, right?!) doesn't spin around
Jupiter, one side always faces the planet. Its orbit
> around the planet is about 3.5 days or so.
>
> Europa ice sheet said to be 10-30 km thick.
>
> Bedtime!  :)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Abrigon Gusiq [mailto:abrigon@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, 24 November 2009 17:42
> To: StargruntsOOC@yahoogroups.com
> Cc: geofiction@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Europa sentient and space faring race?
>
>
> Geothermal and like can only do so much? What other energy forces can be
brought in play?
>
> Depleting uranium? There is uranium deposites that naturally became ... its
nearly not radioactive, something to do with the heat
> and pressure?  Southern Africa?
>
> How fast does the planet spin? and around its main body?
>
> How translusent is the "ICE" and how much radiation of all types gets thru?
>
> Mike
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: michael  <mailto:deaconmjs@...> scott
> To: StargruntsOOC@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [StargruntsOOC] (unknown)
>
>
>
> Kinda of an energy poor place Bio wise. unless you can postulate some form of
food cycle that can use Jovan  RF emissions  the way
> plankton and extreamophiles  do sunlight and "smokers".
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I'm not talking about my personal preferences and prejudices. I'm just wondering
whether the situation might not be analogous to the pay differential - males
(even lactating ones) are according more tolerance than females.

--- In geofiction@yahoogroups.com, "Abrigon Gusiq" <abrigon@...> wrote:
>
> Hum, same as women? Lactating and all?
>
> Me, I have no problem with things, other than confused on how to feel, lust
> cause its a tit (female ones) or how nice mom is doing it traditional and
> bonding with her baby.. Baby formula is too damn expensive.
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "sevens" <Anthony.Miles@...>
> To: <geofiction@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 6:56 AM
> Subject: [geofiction] Re: Artificial Wombs?
>
>
> > In the Brunner story, were there any clothing restrictions on the
> > lactating males? Was it acceptable for them to nurse on the bus?
> >
>

Call of Cthulu?

Jews taste better? Or Germans or .. geniea pigs we all are?

Anthrax and Cholora experinments on allied/chinese POWs?

If allies was here, they likely have someone who is counter to them? Unless
all they care about is profit or slaves or ...

Slaves, but why not take the whole human race? Some regulator group keeps
them from doing things obviously? Blackmarket?

What about colonization "heh you are poor and like to go to a place where
you can have 40 acres and a mules, just sign here and pass thru that door!"
the door is to a space ship to a far distance colony world, need not be
nice, could be for slavery? But see they signed up for it, so its all legal?
Indebtured servitude, we do not have to send them back, they have to earn
the money for that? But when the servitude is over, then what?

See all the people who look Chinese or Indian who live in the Caribean? They
were brought in to replace the Black slaves now free and no longer PC to
have around.. The Blacks was to replace white settlers and indentured
servants, but they could not stand the heat or tropical diseases? They was
brought in to replace the native population and other local regional
population, the was okay but they could escape alot easier than the later
populations, so was replaced.

Mike



----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam McConnich" <rpgstarwizard@...>
To: <geofiction@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: [geofiction] Alien Interference in WWII


wow, depends on their concepts, if they are starfarers do they believe any
culture is superior in anyway
we like to believe in star buddies but we have people that really believe in
star baddies and that they control us as well,





________________________________
From: moejoemixtapes <moejoemixtapes@...>
To: geofiction@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, November 24, 2009 2:58:34 AM
Subject: [geofiction] Alien Interference in WWII


Was watching WWII in HD on History, and was wondering, had Alien life had
reached earth in early 1942, which side (Axis or Allies) would they side
with? They obviously have no 'Human' stake in it, why should they care about
Jews or Americans anymore than the NAZI's? Assuming they aren't here to put
an end to our self destruction, how would have the World's countries, and
the human race for that matter 'evolve' differently?







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Long Live Geofiction!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/geofiction/
geofiction-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
geofiction-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links

wow, depends on their concepts, if they are starfarers do they believe any
culture is superior in anyway
we like to believe in star buddies but we have people that really believe in
star baddies and that they control us as well,

 



________________________________
From: moejoemixtapes <moejoemixtapes@...>
To: geofiction@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, November 24, 2009 2:58:34 AM
Subject: [geofiction] Alien Interference in WWII

 
Was watching WWII in HD on History, and was wondering, had Alien life had
reached earth in early 1942, which side (Axis or Allies) would they side with?
They obviously have no 'Human' stake in it, why should they care about Jews or
Americans anymore than the NAZI's? Assuming they aren't here to put an end to
our self destruction, how would have the World's countries, and the human race
for that matter 'evolve' differently?







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I can only quickly reply to this: (it's already 2am! eeek!)
Europa enjoys a far greater energy source than internal radiative decay as Earth
(and others) does in the tidal flexing. Ergo,
postulating "smokers" on ocean floor.

http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2007NE/finalprogram/abstract_117688.htm

Because of their size, the Galilean moons of Jupiter should not have sufficient
latent energy from accretion to heat their interiors
to the point of melting. However, the two closest moons, Io and Europa, both
exhibit extensive volcanism on their surfaces. This
volcanism most likely results from tidal flexing of the moons which leads to
concentration of heat in the interiors. ... It is
determined that the geothermal gradient of the moons is indeed different under a
tidally heated system than it would be for a system
heated principally by radioactive decay. The tidally generated temperatures
calculated for the interiors are also several orders of
magnitude greater than radiogenic temperatures. These thermal gradient also
reaches high temperatures at fairly shallow depths,
which has implications for the types of lava compositions that would form the
volcanic diapirs on these satellites as well as for
the interaction of water with Europa's mantle.

This one has a nice picture

http://web.archive.org/web/20060329000051/http://geology.asu.edu/~glg_intro/plan\
etary/p8.htm

Now, the theory is that since they're swimming around in a watery world, the
Octopoids are relatively unaffected by this pulling and
pushing (though I guess it MUST affect gravitational forces in the water (like
we have tides) which may give them a sense of "days")
except in that it produces a nice warm environment for them.

And Europa (we are still talking about Europa, right?!) doesn't spin around
Jupiter, one side always faces the planet. Its orbit
around the planet is about 3.5 days or so.

Europa ice sheet said to be 10-30 km thick.

Bedtime!  :)

-----Original Message-----
From: Abrigon Gusiq [mailto:abrigon@...]
Sent: Tuesday, 24 November 2009 17:42
To: StargruntsOOC@yahoogroups.com
Cc: geofiction@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Europa sentient and space faring race?


Geothermal and like can only do so much? What other energy forces can be brought
in play?

Depleting uranium? There is uranium deposites that naturally became ... its
nearly not radioactive, something to do with the heat
and pressure?  Southern Africa?

How fast does the planet spin? and around its main body?

How translusent is the "ICE" and how much radiation of all types gets thru?

Mike


----- Original Message -----
From: michael  <mailto:deaconmjs@...> scott
To: StargruntsOOC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: [StargruntsOOC] (unknown)



Kinda of an energy poor place Bio wise. unless you can postulate some form of
food cycle that can use Jovan  RF emissions  the way
plankton and extreamophiles  do sunlight and "smokers".



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hum, sounds like rise of Christianity or ...

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Diederick de Vries" <diederick@...>
To: <geofiction@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 5:03 AM
Subject: Re: [geofiction] Alien Interference in WWII



>
> However, if they are anyhting like the 16th/17th century Europeans, they
> will
> establish small colonies on Earth and forge alliances with whatever party
> they
> find easiest to control. In WW2 the Axis powers would be the logical
> choice,
> since they are not democratic, but that won't really matter. They will let
> humans fight their wars mostly without interfering, keep their ruling
> classes
> happy, trade with them, and let them deliver resources (inclusing slaves)
> to
> bring back to their home worlds.
>
> Then after a century or two they will have expanded their influence,
> occupying
> entire countries and baptizing humans, banning our primitive (nature)
> religions. Humans will be travelling as servants to their worlds, and some
> will be schooled by them. If we are lucky, their intellectuals and humans
> studying at universities at their home worlds will protest, as will other
> alien powers. We will be liberated and made into a galactic third world
> country.
>
> Diederick.
>

Op dinsdag 24 november 2009 08:58:34 schreef moejoemixtapes:
> Was watching WWII in HD on History, and was wondering, had Alien life had
>  reached earth in early 1942, which side (Axis or Allies) would they side
>  with? They obviously have no 'Human' stake in it, why should they care
>  about Jews or Americans anymore than the NAZI's? Assuming they aren't here
>  to put an end to our self destruction, how would have the World's
>  countries, and the human race for that matter 'evolve' differently?

That probably depends on what they want/who they are. If they are like Star
Trek's Vulcans, they probably head back, sending a report back to mission
control along the lines of 'try again in a century or two'.

However, if they are anyhting like the 16th/17th century Europeans, they will
establish small colonies on Earth and forge alliances with whatever party they
find easiest to control. In WW2 the Axis powers would be the logical choice,
since they are not democratic, but that won't really matter. They will let
humans fight their wars mostly without interfering, keep their ruling classes
happy, trade with them, and let them deliver resources (inclusing slaves) to
bring back to their home worlds.

Then after a century or two they will have expanded their influence, occupying
entire countries and baptizing humans, banning our primitive (nature)
religions. Humans will be travelling as servants to their worlds, and some
will be schooled by them. If we are lucky, their intellectuals and humans
studying at universities at their home worlds will protest, as will other
alien powers. We will be liberated and made into a galactic third world
country.

Diederick.

Was watching WWII in HD on History, and was wondering, had Alien life had
reached earth in early 1942, which side (Axis or Allies) would they side with?
They obviously have no 'Human' stake in it, why should they care about Jews or
Americans anymore than the NAZI's? Assuming they aren't here to put an end to
our self destruction, how would have the World's countries, and the human race
for that matter 'evolve' differently?

Geothermal and like can only do so much? What other energy forces can be brought
in play?

Depleting uranium? There is uranium deposites that naturally became ... its
nearly not radioactive, something to do with the heat and pressure?  Southern
Africa?

How fast does the planet spin? and around its main body?

How translusent is the "ICE" and how much radiation of all types gets thru?

Mike

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: michael scott
   To: StargruntsOOC@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:18 PM
   Subject: Re: [StargruntsOOC] (unknown)




   Kinda of an energy poor place Bio wise. unless you can postulate some form of
food cycle that can use Jovan  RF emissions  the way plankton and extreamophiles
do sunlight and "smokers".

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hum, same as women? Lactating and all?

Me, I have no problem with things, other than confused on how to feel, lust
cause its a tit (female ones) or how nice mom is doing it traditional and
bonding with her baby.. Baby formula is too damn expensive.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "sevens" <Anthony.Miles@...>
To: <geofiction@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 6:56 AM
Subject: [geofiction] Re: Artificial Wombs?


> In the Brunner story, were there any clothing restrictions on the
> lactating males? Was it acceptable for them to nurse on the bus?
>

Good point? Or how to make it lethal the first time and not have to worry
about first aid?

Mike

As long as Mike gets the credit.

Mike (the Mike)

----- Original Message -----
From: <entertainment@...>
To: <StargruntsOOC@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: <mikeham@...>
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 11:22 AM
Subject: [StargruntsOOC] On the Prospect of Space Exploration by Octopoidal
Life In Ice Encapsulated Biospheres


I am in a significant hurry just now, to complete the dissection of a large
legal document, for a meeting taking place in a few hours.
So, I found myself slightly surprised, that I was reading through the
entirety of this "3,500 word leviathan", and even more surprised at how
far I was already through said leviathan when I realized that.  Never the
less, I kept reading, and will save it for later good intentions of
writing somewhere down the never ending road.

This is a fascinating analysis, and remarkable for its readability, depth,
and consideration of what to most would be an obscure topic.
I could see it as an essay to the uninitiated interestee on the topic of
science fictional writing.

Thank you for your excellent work.

L

Agreed John, Mike should write for Analog or Nasa or ..

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "John R. Albers Jr" <NotquitestJohn@...>
To: <StargruntsOOC@yahoogroups.com>; <mikeham@...>
Cc: "John Albers Jr" <John.AlbersJr@...>
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 6:19 AM
Subject: [StargruntsOOC] (unknown)


Great post Mike, I liked it so much I'm going to print it off at work
tomorrow.

John
Wisconsin.

This reminded me of something I was watching on Tasmanian devils and their
facial cancer pandemic. Probably because I have a bunch of humanoid Tazzies in
the Polycosm. Wouldn't an intelligent race that bit each other frequently know
how to do basic first aid as a social skill?

--- In geofiction@yahoogroups.com, "tomhchappell" <tomhchappell@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In geofiction@yahoogroups.com, Jefferson <rulingnations@> wrote:
> >
> > Abrigon Gusiq wrote:
> > > Humans bite are some of the deadliest to humans.
> >
> > I normally don't mention my dreams on this list, but last night I
> > had one where I married an alien female.  (TV-style alien of
> > course.)  This brought it to mind because as part of their mating
> > this race bit each other and left scars, and such "mating scars"
> > were borne with pride.  Normally the alien's healed quickly, but
> > bites from the members of their own race were an exception.
> >
> > --
> > Jefferson
> > http://www.monticello21st.com/rpg/
> >
>
> That's a good one!
>
> Alien microbes probably couldn't live in us, (unless the Panspermia idea has a
lot of truth to it).  That doesn't really mean they coudn't kill us; AAUI
tetanus's deadliest chemical is only released when the bacterium dies.
>
> Alien predators would probably find us vile-tasting and deadly poison. But
again; not necesssarily.
>
> I don't understand what that has to do with the "3 generation rule", though.
>

In the Brunner story, were there any clothing restrictions on the lactating
males? Was it acceptable for them to nurse on the bus?

--- In geofiction@yahoogroups.com, "tomhchappell" <tomhchappell@...> wrote:
>
> ---In geofiction@yahoogroups.com, "Abrigon Gusiq" <abrigon@> wrote:
> >Would make for some odd social settings?
> Please elaborate.
>
> >It looks like a man, but what are these ..... pointing at breasts?
> In a John Brunner story, (also look into Samuel R. Delany), men who were macho
about fatherhood would typically have one breast made capable of lactating, to
give their wives (or, at least, their babymamas) a break.
>
> >Or just the idea of support but ... yes..
> Hmm? What do you mean?
>
> >Anyone looked into the Spartan social life?
> >Spending all their time with their battle buddy,
> >but only like once a month with a women for procreation?
> Well, Thucidydes did.
> Didn't some of the "longhouse" or "hogan" Native American tribes also have
such an arrangement?
>
> >Kids with only one parent?
> Where have you been living the past 50 years?
>

> So how to role play one, or wargame them as a squad?

My thoughts?

I imagine they would be faaar less warlike than we are simply because their
civilisation development has relied more on community
needs - they built towns because they needed temples, assemblies and courts
rather than because they needed shelters. And because
their development is more "organic". For example, without the concept of
burning, and having relied on geothermal energy in the same
way we relied on wood or coal for fuel, a lot of destructive technologies, such
as explosives, would be developed far later in their
technological progression, if even at all. This affects their taste for warfare,
which would more likely be far more biological and
hand-to... er, tentacle-to-tentacle. And slower, too. One must also remember
that fast movement to them is likely to be a lot slower
than we're used to because we live in a biosphere of thin atmosphere compared to
their viscous watery one.

On balance, I think the Octopoids are more likely to be socially like the
Amazonian aboriginals. Both live in
climatologically-static, plentiful environments. If the Octopoids build, its for
social reasons, not necessity, and I think that
must have a massive influence on their tendancy toward peaceful approaches than
warfare. Not that warfare was unknown. I'm sure they
would not have fought bitterly, amongst themselves, over fish stocks. And, I
guess, fights over resources are the #1 cause of
conflict. But, it's not likely they'll be fighting over water supplies, but
instead over the vents. To them, vents are the oasises
of their otherwise desert world. If a geological events killed a group of vents,
there'd be migration and warfare, no doubt, but, I
imagine such events would be rare.

For these reasons, and others in my previous "book", I'd say they'd be late
bloomers space-wise* and are more likely to encounter us
when we're tap-tap-tapping on their icy sky and sending probes downward, perhaps
analogous to the Amazonian contact with the
Portuguese and Spanish. The difference therein is that, defensively, the
Octopoids are VERY well-defended living in such an
inaccessible environment to us. Of course, heaven help them if they've got some
rare mineral we desperately need down there.
Conflict is likely to begin when they decide to destroy our robotic submariners
rather than allow us to continue mining their vents.
I am certain we'd look upon that with mystified looks: "how could squid...?" the
questions would begin. Could we overpower them?
That entirely depends on whether they've developed other technologies.
Energy-producing bacteria would be under their command long
before it has been for us, though their biological weaponry would be useless
against our machinery. And given chemistry (at least as
we view it) is constrained, and projectile weapons weren't as effective (imagine
warfare without ever being able to use guns),
perhaps they discover energy weaponry long before us. Regardless, their greatest
weapon against us is simply their environment and
its remoteness.

* Bearing in mind that "late blooming" is irrelevant when compared to the
hundreds of millions of years over which a species
evolves. Who's to say their evolution didn't give them sentience and
technological development ten thousand years before us
considering that ten thousand years is a mere microsecond in evolutionary terms?
If ten thousand years, why not a million years? Or
a hundred million? They could have established the vast multi-galaxy Octopoidal
Empire a million years before we landed on the moon
and STILL have taken millions of years to more slowly ("late blooming") develop
their technological prowess simply because Europan
cephalopodic evolution is forty million years ahead of earthican mammalian
development. </sidebar>

The question then becomes whether we would first encounter their probes atop the
moon's surface, and, moreso, given their wider
environmental gap compared to us exploring space, are they more likely to have
used robotic probes to do their dirty work than we
are, perhaps then informing their defensive capabilities? Is their need to live
inside extremely high-pressure water tin-cans in
space as opposed to our
lower-pressure-but-still-infinitely-higher-than-space-has air canisters really
going to make a material
difference in the vacuum of space? Like comparing one infinity to another.
Therefore, their space exploration, and whether they
deploy probes, is likely to depend upon their technological pathway, whether it
is more economical to issue probes or their own
hapless explorers in mecha-suits.

Then again, their technology is likely to be more biological than ours, having
long before mastered bending bacteria and algae to
their needs, which means less the metallic tin-cans we have, and moreso the
biologically- or genetically-engineered ships for them.
So, given their environment, perhaps electronic devices are a more difficult
path than creating biological probes or protective
suits to explore their own world. Perhaps they have invented a thermal
insulating or generating algae gel for protecting themselves
against the high elevation's (a.k.a. shallow water's) profound cold before
they'd invent an electronic eye for looking up there.
With this in mind, again, I'm drawn to saying space exploration for them would
be so radically different an idea that by the time
they finally get to it, they will have developed an entire bio-engineered
technology that embarasses our Apollo missions to dust.
Furthermore, even once they're in space, and can finally use projectile and
explosive weaponry, they'd be so far behind the
eight-ball compared to their interplanetary neighbours that focusing on what
they're already good at would produce better results.
Ergo, inflicting a plague on our biology is far more likely than dropping atomic
bombs on our cities.

So, let's say they did manage to populate space before we find them. Their
bio-engineered spacecraft, fueled by rock-eating bacteria
(at least until they start discovering solar and other space-bourne energy
sources), are defended by energy weapons as they search
the galaxy for places to settle and places to acquire resources from. Having
only seen life on a watery world, in their search for
life, they'd probably ignore the land surfaces of planets like our own, but
would be quite attracted to the ease with which they
could mine minerals from such planets conveniently waterless surfaces. Enter
point-of-conflict #1.

They drop probes containing a bio-engineered algae that draws the selenium or
whatever mineral they seek from the soil or subterrain
to the surface and collect the proceeds. Needless to say, the "strange
gas-breathing bipeds" on the surface object to the algae
wiping out their hard-fought crops, or selves, on this inhospitable planet
they've colonised, and fire a couple of rockets into the
ass of the Octopoidal ships. Maybe the Octopoids destroy them with a quick blast
from a energy cannon, assuming the missiles to have
been some meteor that only "looked" like it came from the surface (well, it
couldn't possibly have, could it? Life doesn't live on
the surface.), or maybe they get blown to smithereens by some chemical explosive
weapon the Octopoids have never encountered before.
Point is, such an inauspicious introduction combined with limited Octopoidal
understanding of the diversity of life is bound to be
the seeds for conflict.

Or, perhaps not. Maybe they find bacteria and algae-like green lifeforms on the
surface of some planet in their solar system and are
instantly attracted to understanding it. The surface of the planet, their
scientists report, is abundantly filled with plant-life
that appears to use light as a means of energy storage. And yet, they would be
naturally drawn to Earth's oceans and its abundance
of more easily understood lifeforms. Perhaps they look to colonise Earth's
shallow oceans and get pissed off by the "gas-breathers"
constant dumping of crap into the sea. Communication, straight off, is going to
be the immediate difficulty. With the high speed of
sound in high-pressure water, the Octopoids have communicated for millenia by a
series of quiet clicks or even tentacle movements.
Aside from which, the earthicans are never likely to ever be able to shake the
tentacle of these aliens hidden within these
bio-mechanical suits, never be able to look them in the highly-mirrored eye, and
any displays of diplomatic pageantry, with
colourful, fluttering flags, will be lost of the creatures without cones in
their eyes.

Communication breakdowns will inevitably breed fear and conflict.

So, let's stay out of eachothers' ways, it's agreed. You can't live in our
watery depths, and we can't live on your surfaces, so our
planetary needs for colonisation are poles apart meaning we won't need to bump
into eachother. Until, depending on technological
pathways, we may fight over resources. Perhaps our need for selenium for
electronics is shared. Perhaps they rely on iron ore as
much as we do. And, as they grow in space knowledge, perhaps fuel sources are
equally shared. Or, granted exploration permits on
Earth, the Octopoids do what they have always done: bio-engineer the Earth's
oceanic lifeforms which, if it doesn't produce
unforseen disasterous consequences, might need only breach human feelings of
revulsion to result in conflict.

So, war results.

Aside from both sides having spacecraft, probably different kinds of energy
weapons, the earthicans having projectile weapons the
Octopoids can only dream of, and the Octopoids having biological weapons humans
can only speculate about. As our nukes struggle to
reach their colonial depths, their bacterially engineered plagues are, at first,
ineffective against our biology. But, both learn
fast. They'd institute biological warfare units, armadas of scientific research
ships devoted to analysing the human form to design
a biological agent that decimates us. While we'd develop better undersea rocket
technology to reach the Marianas Trench and blow
their colonies to pieces. They'd re-engineer our surface-dwelling algaes or
bacterias (such as blue-green algae) to infest our water
supplies even when conditions are not otherwise ideal for them. They'd attach
them to rockets that penetrate our warships' water
supplies. Sure, a slow weapon, but, if effectively deployed against a fleet,
that fleet might be rendered inoperable within days of
a contest with a much smaller Octopoidal biological warfare flotilla. Plus, they
can always engineer fasting acting plagues that
afflict the air filtration systems and render a crew ill within minutes.
Afterall, they needn't even kill us: just render us too
sick to operate our ships.

Of course, realising their ships were bio-engineered, perhaps we would also
start research on weaponising bacterial attacks on their
ships, in the same way they might start researching digital viruses for our
ships. Naturally enough, their bio-engineered ships
already have immune systems, so this may be a long-term research project, in the
same way theirs would be, too, given their lack of
intimacy with purely electronic systems.

Conflict is likely to be restricted to space since our biosphere is just as
deadly to them as space is to them, and as both space
and their biospheres are to us. We're unlikely to see much boarding of
eachother's ships, or hand-to-tentacle conflict. If they want
to render inoperable one of our bases, they'll most likely deploy bio-engineered
algaes or bacterias that render our water supplies
undrinkable. Something that didn't turn the water green but made us violently
ill, too ill to fight. Sure, we could have hidden
water stores, but they could engineer a algal spores or bacterias that evade our
filters, attach to peoples' clothing and then
infect the underground bases. Given their defensive, peaceful perspective,
killing us wouldn't necessarily be their highest
priority.

However, if they needed to acquire something from us surface-dwellers, they
would have their own version of commandos or special
forces, troops that could be deployed to the surface, face-off any resistance
and take or do what they needed to. These would be
firmly ensconced within heavily armoured bio-mechanical suits, much like their
spacesuits, each equipped with force fields and
energy weapons. These suits might also be equipped with biological weaponry,
such as a misting spray that renders human soldiers
instantly choking, though not necessarily fatally so.

Their lack of reliance on projectile weaponry might not exclusively lead to
lasers as weapons. Electrical or ionic weapons are quite
likely, too, especially since their first experiences "above ice" will be of a
highly ionised (and fatal) environment, prompting
research that might lead to ion weaponry rapidly. Likewise, with our technology
so sensitive to electrical disturbance, perhaps they
attack our Mecha'-besuited soldiers with electrical weapons, maybe no more
complex than tasers, or lightning weapons. And, given
their natural strength (going on their earthican cousins), and their continued
idolisation of tentacle-to-tentacle combat, they
might be difficult adversaries in hand-to-tentacle combat. And if you believe
psionic weaponry is possible, they might be quick to
rely on such weapons on their homeworld, too. Having studied the human lifeform,
they may reengineer their weapons to attack humans.

And while we have regretably too much evidence for how humans are killed,
killing the Octopoids on land would be so unlike human
experience that it will undoubtedly be celebrated by Sergeant-Majors across the
Earth who point to the sight of the violent
explosion of (high-pressure) water from the side of an Octopoidal biosuit as the
sign of a squirming, drowning cephalopod inside.

  > So how to role play one, or wargame them as a squad?

With all this in mind, I propose the following:

1. Firstly, it seems likely from their social and civilisational development,
they are more likely to be understanding and
appreciative of life - albethey far readier to bend lifeforms to their will -
more communal than humans, and more easily satisfied
with less. I do not see them as marauders conquering the galaxy compared to
humans. All things are possible, of course - if their
populated watery depths are separated from eachother by ventless deserts, then
perhaps they have the same colonising drive we had in
centuries past - but I think a people like the Amazonians, with a plentiful,
unchanging environment, with civilisation coming by
concensus above need, are more likely to be peaceful than ravaging,
concilliatory more than conquering.

2. They will not rely on projectile weapons like the human race did, having
invented energy weapons (or even psyonic attacks) long
before we did. No guns, no missiles, instead energy weaponry. Perhaps they have
force fields, given their immediate need to protect
against ionic radiation damage or collision damage from Jupiter's rings to their
ships, long before we do.

3. Their technology is bio-engineered far more than electronic. They fight with
bio-engineered plagues as their equivalent to nukes.

4. A fight over habitat will only result if we're not careful, otherwise they'll
happily colonise the ocean depths and leave the
surface to us.

5. Unless they want to mine the surface, then their algal blooms chewing up and
destroying the soil will be cause for conflict.

6. Fights over resources are just as likely, regardless our different habitat
requirements.

7. They're unlikely to ever fight on land. If they're peaceful, they'll defend
themselves and their interests, they reap revenge on
attackers, but tentacle-to-hand combat is unlikely. But, if they DID venture on
land, a small squad of heavily armoured
bio-mechanical besuited commandos, equipped with force fields and energy
weapons, would probably be deployed.

8. Deploying bio-engineered algaes or bacterias that rendered our water supplies
undrinkable would be their best attacks.

9. In the early years, however, they might be bested by our speed. Used to the
slow movement of their viscous environments, they may
be unused to any enemy that has evolved in a faster, gaseous environment. They
might need to quickly calibrate their bio-engineered
ships to do the reacting for them, and instead come to rely on strategy in their
fighting style.


As a final note; I would like to ensure it is understood that I muse this (and
its preceding essay) under the provision that anyone
can use this for their roleplaying or milSimming to their heart's content, with
attribution of ideas appreciated, but I will not be
happy to see this published in the newest edition of <insert milSim or
roleplaying game/magazine here>. Y'know, just in case.  :-)

On Sat, 21 Nov 2009, Abrigon Gusiq wrote:
  > Really alien life, any ideas?
  > One example was life that evolved on Europe, a moon of
  > Jupiter (?) where the fluid ocean is miles below an ice
  > sheet, and what sort of alien intelligent life might evolve
  > there and how would they get into space?
  > One ideas was a Octopoid or like, and they digged their way
  > into space, since the frozen ice is almost to the top or
  > their is an atmosphere but what is it?

(You're always asking questions that get me thinking and spouting. What's wit'
dat?)

The Octopoids first problem is going to be that they're digging toward
near-absolute zero temperatures. That would mean there would
be a long history of miners simply freezing to death in attempts doing this. Or
perhaps the "waters" at that shallow level are
already too cold for them (110°K at the surface equator, dropping to half-that
at the poles) that throughout their history, like
flying for earthicans, it was considered a vain foolishness to try getting too
close to that cold region. And if the cold doesn't
kill them, the low water pressure probably will as their bodies have adapted to
survive at the higher-pressure, murky depths (up to
100km deep) where it's warm, where life can evolve.

(Quite aside from all this, I see an issue with the evolution of complex life
entirely dependant on the hydrothermal vents, as
opposed to that on Earth which (so I read) evolved by living off the — and I
love this phrase — "marine snow" of living and dead
organic matter that falls from the "Photic Zone", that is, the depth to which
light penetrates for photosynthesis, being up to 200
metres in open ocean. If all we have is hydrothermal vent-sucking bacteria,
there's going to have to be a PLETHORA of vents to
sustain a complex ecology. And, unlike Earth's oceans, life will be concentrated
around those vents. Plus, our xeno-ecology is going
to be different to what we know on earth, which is fish eating plankton which
eat photosynthetic algaes. Well, for one, there's no
photosynthesis on Europa, but chemosynthesis centred around the hydrothermal
vents. I guess the plant level of Europa is going to be
simple algaes, then the Europan plankton eat those around the vents, which allow
more complex fish species, etc...)

SEEING THE UNTHINKABLE

However, let's say our Octopoids advance and get to the point where they can
stand the cold with special suits (Octosuits?) or
"marines" (well, they're not "sub"-marines) and drill their way to the surface
and stare in absolute wonderment at the fearfully
black inkiness they have NEVER BEFORE SEEN. Unlike us, they've never seen stars,
never seen the sun (and, at their distance,
wouldn't see much anyway), never seen the black emptiness that fills the night
sky. And certainly never seen that fearfully giant
sphere and its eerily glowing aurora dominating their night sky. In fact, the
planet would glow brighter than our moon does for us!

Actually, drop that thought: they've probably NEVER SEEN ANYTHING. Living in the
dark depths, where light doth not penetrate, let
alone exist (the sun being so far away as to be little more than a torchlight at
a hundred paces), they've probably — like most of
our earthican deep-sea creatures — not evolved eyes. Alright, some on earth do
have rod-only eyes, but did they evolve them because
their sub-surface cousins evolved eyes with which to see the well-lit photic
zone, or did they develop their eyes for independent
need. In other words, would Europans have or need eyes? Well, thinking about how
essential they are for our development, I find it
difficult to believe they would have civilised and technologicised (?!) without
some kind of sight. Either way, assuming no light
source down below, any eyes they did have will probably be blinded by the
"fierce brightness" of the stars, much less of Jupiter and
its aurora. Rods do adjust though. (That said... read on.)

Obviously, being Octopoids, they're not breathing the barely-perceptible surface
layer of oxygen anyway (one-tenth of a
micro-Pascal, compared to earth's ~101,900 Pa). Any atmosphere there could have
been would have frozen anyway, or drifted away (I'm
looking at you, Hydrogen and Helium). Plus, like our astronauts, our Octonauts
are going to have to be protected from radiation, not
only from the sun, but from Jupiter itself, since the moon sits within Jupiter's
magnetosphere and its own gas torus and is
bombarded regularly with ions. Given the vast strength of Jupiter's
magnetosphere (it's a thousand times stronger a radio-wave
emitter), I would imagine the ionic bombardment to be far greater than what our
moon experiences, making it even less hospitable.
Plus, the concept of near-zero pressure for a species used to MPa of pressure,
afterall, would be quite daunting. I imagine even
travelling to the ice layer of their oceans would require enormous effort, since
water pressure there would be nothing compared to
their biosphere depths. (Even with surface gravity 2/15ths of earth's, a hundred
kilometres of water pressure to the rock level
would produce some unbelievably vast pressures. If every 33 feet equals another
14.7 psi on earth, and ~2psi on Europa, then 100km
down brings the water pressure to ~1,352 atm (earth atmospheres), 19,884 psi or
137 MPa. Wow. Crushing!)

WHY UP THERE?

Still, once they've made it to the surface, the idea of exploring further may
have further appeal. I imagine that's gonna be a lot
more dangerous than it is for us because of Jupiter's proximity, but they might
first build probes to launch from the surface. Heck,
after a few attempts, they might even build a surface base. And, just as we have
to spend vast energies firing rockets into space,
they too have to expend vast energy to overcome the thick ice that reforms every
time they drill their way upward.

But, y'know, I tend to think it would take them a heckovalong time before
they're exploring space. Like we earthicans and our deep
sea, I don't imagine the octopoids would find space anywhere NEAR as attractive
since they've not spent the past however-many
thousand years looking up at the night sky and wondering "Wow, what if." They
don't have astronomical telescopes. They know nothing
of other planets before they crack the ice. Hell, they haven't even seen
Jupiter. In fact, I'm certain their scientists project that
"beyond the ice" (and discovering there IS ice would be the first amazing
discovery) is an infinite vastness of water populated by
strange leviathans. If instead, they find it's not water, but this hitherto
inconceivable concept of a vacuum, after they've picked
their exploded brains from the walls, they're just as likely to say "Why the
hell would we go up there?"

For if that "wow, what if" is what drives humans to explore space, conversely,
for them I imagine the ocean depths, the rock of the
core of their planet would hold faaaar greater fascination. Where does this
energy come from? What's down there? Is there life below
the surface of the rock, or are we the only intelligent lifeforms in this ocean?
Sure they've mined it for minerals, but maybe going
further holds far greater interest. I propose that as naïve and disinterested as
we are about the ocean depths (please compare
budgets for NASA vs NOAA), I imagine is their lack of interest for the heavens.

Perhaps, too, the fearful and incomprehensible sights they saw, and perhaps the
radiation deaths their octonauts suffered, imperils
funding for surface exploration. Afterall, it would be so much more alien to
them than for us. As aforementioned, they haven't
stared at the stars, and have no need of satellites, as ice-hooked communication
antennae "waaay up there" would more than
adequately satisfy their need for cross-continental communications. And there's
a further thought: there's no continents, for
there's no inhospitable oceans to cross, so exploration itself may not be as
driving a concept as it is for us.

Although, since I've assumed a high density of hydrothermal vents to sustain
sufficient life so as to develop a complex ecology,
we're unlikely to be looking at isolated communities of life. Not likely to be
looking at life crowded around these vents isolated
from eachother. The whole ocean floor is covered in life. Perhaps there are
pockets, "deserts", where a lack of vents means a lack
of chemosynthetic life, and thus almost no plankton, and fewer fish, but just as
our deserts manage to sustain some life even
without plants, so perhaps theirs do too. Likewise, huge peaks in the ocean
floor, devoid of vents, may also result in high-altitude
"deserts". However, overall, it is sounding very much like a planet where all
the world is pretty-much known, save the sub-rock
depths and the freezing sub-surface (and beyond), and thus, there's no economic
incentive to launch the Santa Maria to cross
"oceans" since our Octopoids can simply swim to whereever in the world they
want. In other words, they've started very
well-connected, like the whole of earth was one giant land mass and no seas, and
civilisations, though they evolve separately, would
soon know about eachother. Without the age of exploration, with all the world
connected to eachother, would not our octopoid friends
suffer less of a drive to explore? Certainly, they explored eachother's
civilisations, conquered eachother, built empires on
eachother's labours. But, the world would be "smaller". Inevitably, this would
affect their global culture profoundly. As would the
very idea that life is easy.

SETTLEMENT

Then again, our Octopoid friends never developed civilisation, per se! With the
water warm, food plentiful, perhaps they never got
past nomadic lifestyles. Afterall, it was domestication of grains that turned
humanity into settlers, but if Europa doesn't have
large bodied plants, like kelp, maybe there is nothing to farm!! (No kelp? Well,
earthican plants rely photosynthesis, and getting
bigger is feasible since you can always trap more sunlight. Does the same apply
to chemosynthesis? Can large plants evolve? Or, as
suggested earlier, would the top of their tree be small algaes and animals
become more common, number-of-species-wise?) Plus, water
is a great equaliser, so the vast climatological differences wouldn't exist on
Europa, and with the tidal flexing providing a static
energy source, perhaps they do not experience seasons as we do. Without them,
what's the incentive to store up food (fish) for the
non-existent winter?

(OOOOOOER, now there's a thought: what is the concept of a "day" for our Europan
friends?!?! Europa has been bullied into a
synchronous orbit around Jupiter, as our moon has, meaning one side always faces
the planet. So, there's no rotational effects. So,
could rotating around Jupiter every three and a half days affect their concept
of days? Does being on the solar-side of the planet's
magnetosphere play differently at the oceanic depths than 1.75 days later? Does
the tidal flexing become stronger and so vary the
ejections from the hydrothemal vents and thus the activity of the bacteria and
algae there? Or does every minute blend into the next
in an endless continuum of invariable time? Is any variation significant enough
to propel their imperative to settle?)

This is not final, since there could be dozens of other non-astronomical reasons
that incite settlement. Their fish supply could be
variable due to a mating cycle that depletes stocks over the course of a "year".
The rotation of the moon and thus interaction with
the tidal flexing could cause the vents to become variable. However, it does
seem that settlement requires an imperative, and our
Octopoidal friends have vastly less incentive than we humans did. Settlement
requires being more economical than a nomadic life to
render extinct the nomadic life. If one group settles, and the benefit is
stronger, they'll outpopulate their nomadic cousins and
eventually force them onto reservations, so to speak. So, is it more economical
to corral their fishy food than to trap it on the
... er, high seas? It seems, again, more likely that they would develop nets
before they developed houses. Nets provide a definite
benefit, well in-excess of any fish farming, and with no "elements" to hide
from, what's the need to build houses? Although, without
substantial plant life, such as kelp, out of what would they build these nets?

NOT HOUSES, COMMUNITY CENTRES

So, do our Octopoidal friends only develop as far as being more efficient
nomadic hunters with lots of spare time because they can
catch more fish with these nets? Do they, like Australian Aboriginal nomads,
develop a rich and multi-layered culture without ever
feeling the imperative to settle in any particular place, and are they therefore
likely to remain in such context until humans
arrive and accidentally destroy them, too? Or is that exclusive to the
Australians because the land was so inhospitably
unsettleable? The Chinese, with their fertile three-rivers region, had no
trouble settling down, nor did the Mesopotamians. But,
again, hiding from the elements and grain crops was the key. Is there a
perceptible incentive for the Octopoids to settle when fish
is plentiful (we'll assume) and life is devoid of environmental threats. Not to
mention that the ocean floor, polluted by
sulphur-spewing vents, might be utterly inhospitable for most higher animal
lifeforms. Perhaps our friends could only settle on
ventless plateaus? Which would pull them away from their fish.

This is problematic. I'm not seeing them settle, quite aside from the more
obvious difficulty that, without higher forms of planet
life, like grasses for straw or trees for wood, what are our Octopoidal friends
building settlements out of? Stone? Their closest
cultural equivalent on earth might be the Polynesian peoples, but Polynesians
only settled islands because they couldn't live in the
sea with their food source. So, maybe the equivalent is sub-Saharan Africans who
enjoyed a continent of relatively static climate,
plentiful food, and, consequently, as my musing suggest, a lack of great
incentive to settle. Well, at least, the nomadic ratio two
pre-colonial centuries ago was far higher. So, with this in mind, what prompted
the Africans to settle down? Because they could? And
how would they have developed their civilisations differently to how Eurasians
did?

Alright, the author delves further and further afield from what he knows.

Perhaps there is an alternative driver for settlement: community. Perhaps it
isn't settlement of houses that drives settlement, but
construction of temples around holy places, or of designated community
assemblies, or auditoriums and theatres? Perhaps as
populations grew with the improved fish catches, thanks to those net inventions,
the excess people could be deployed to cultural
tasks, such as the retention and documentation of their oral histories, and,
from that, the development of libraries, administrative
buildings, temples, and so on. Perhaps as colonies grew, so too did the need for
law and order, a central location from which
application of justice emanated, courts, and then political buildings. And with
such settlements, military service and armaments
construction become a necessity. Rather than city walls — which can be swam
over, afterall — their fortifications became vast nets
that walled out the enemy. And when metal blades cut the nets, harder materials
needed to be used and thus invented. Maybe mining
for metal to build chain-link developed far earlier for them than for us? Or
perhaps they could take advantage of the vents spewing
minerals from the depths? One thing is for certain, with water providing a far
stronger resistance than air, projectile weapons
would be far less common. No vast armies of harpoon-flinging archers. Combat
would be close-quarters for a long time. And gunpowder?
Well, sulphur is highly reactive and oxidises as soon as it hit water. So,
they're not making that in a watery world.

CONTACT!

In fact, all chemistry would be difficult for them, and most definitely would
have developed as a science far differently to what
humans did, as they would start from the solution, and creating a non-dissolved
element would be decidedly challenging for them.
Perhaps the discovery of gases, the ability to create balloons from the gizzards
of their enemies, was a big progression, enabling
projectile weapons. Maybe theirs is a far more pneumatic and hydraulic
engineering base than ours? Well, they're unlikely to develop
fuel rockets. For one, oil, if it even existed, wouldn't burn underwater.
Producing hydrogen and oxygen would be easier (well,
plentiful), but I'm not sure even hydrogen burns underwater?! Furthermore, is
electricity even possible in a high-pressure watery
world? Interestingly, they might get glass before we did, since the vents spew
forth high temperatures and the silicon ocean floor
provides an able supply. Indeed, the vents would probably become their
technology source in many ways, providing the energy that
fire did for us, and gases that might provide transportable energy.

So, if we assume they've developed a under-water technology that we cannot even
conceive of, that probably revolves in some way
around the vents, perhaps this enables long distance travel, as rail did for us.
And then, pointing it upward, they can begin
developing rockets to the ice. Their next big technology would need to be
pressure suits to provide the hundred or so MegaPascals of
pressure required to keep them alive while the water around them is barely a
thousandth of that. If achieved, they'd next have to
pipe the vents' heat to the ice to prevent the ice they've just drilled through
from instantly refreezing and locking their drill.
Perhaps they could find a way of melting their way to the surface, or of using a
high-altitude volcano, which produces, or can be
guided to produce, a permanent watery exit to the surface. (Since at 110°K, any
surface water would instantly refreeze.) After
drilling through, they (or their robots) might look out on the surface of the
ice either at the bare sky, or at this sphere that is
19 times the diameter-size of our moon appears to us and is brighter than our
full-moon.

Assuming the sight doesn't terrify them, that they manage their first Octonaut
adventure on the surface, buried deep inside a
near-infinitely more pressurised tin-can than the surface atmosphere which is
also dramatically heated, hoping to God that it
doesn't spring a leak condemning the Octonaut to an instant, freezing, waterless
tin grave, our Octonaut probably wouldn't be able
to look with his/her own eyes on the surface because any glass would have to be
ten-foot thick to contain the pressure. Once again,
Octonautical exploration isn't looking very viable for our friends, and they're
more-likely to experience the surface by the benefit
of robotic sensors whilst ensconced safely at a high plateau scientific control
centre. It's more likely for the same reason humans
will (almost-certainly) never experience first-hand the murkiest depths of our
oceans, be they a mere 4 km deep, and we'll always be
deploying robots to such environments. Still, it's not impossible.

Which raises the question: are our friends more likely to explore space through
their robotic agents than personally? Perhaps, akin
to Cylons, the Octopoids will inhabit huge resurrection-type spacecraft from
which they will control their robotic minions. Will
they bother to meet humans face-to-face or will they send androids in their
stead to meet with humanity? For even if they could meet
with us, it would likely be from within heavy, armoured suits of metal
protecting them from our absurdly low-pressure biosphere.
Even if they sought to explore for genetic similarities at the bottom of our
oceans, they would still need their pressure suits, as
our oceans would be injuriously under-pressurised for their forms. Conversely,
if we ever considered the possibility of despatching
an envoy to their UN, the speaker would be buried deep inside a metal submarine
if they attempted it at all. Would make giving them
our smallpox not only difficult — I s'pose there's still the poisoned blankets
option — but moot: why poison a people whose "land"
we couldn't want even if we could settle it.

Frankly, I think this monstrous endeavour demonstrates to me that humans are
better equipped to explore the cosmos than our
Octopoidal brethren. Quite aside from living lives more conducive to cultural
pursuits than exploratory ones, their biological
requirements for life would make travelling far more difficult than it is for
us, even aside from the utter strangeness of this
blindingly bright world above the ice that, contrary to many of their scientists
projections, I'm sure, did not contain an infinite
vastness of water populated by strange leviathans. And yet, while one may be
tempted to assume these obstacles preclude their drive
to explore further, it may not be a fatal obstacle. They, like us, may search
the cosmos for other worlds with hospitably deep
oceans that might contain their pre-conceived definitions for life, scanning our
planet's oceans with scant regard for
surface-dwellers than are inconceivable to them, having no parallel on their
homeworld. But when they do consider us, they'll marvel
that we can exist at all outside water, that we can survive in the highly
variable gaseous biosphere that seems out to get us, cast
a shocked eye at this concept of the burning star representing life to us, these
photosynthesising plants, and wonder in disbelief
at our bizarre technologies and sciences, like gunpowder or perhaps even
high-voltage electricity, perhaps oil, gas and coal, too,
or at why we haven't embraced the most "natural" energy of them all, geothermal.
All this quite aside from our incomprehensible
culture that has evolved around concepts so insanely at odds to their own.

If anyone actually read through the entirety of this 3,500-word leviathan, I
commend your fortitude. Perhaps you can point to my
erroneous assumptions, perhaps be able to resolve some of the difficulties I
perceive for our Octopoidal friends, such as what
drives them to technology in the first place and how they can overcome the
natural, watery limits to their scientific progress. And
if you've skipped everything to get to the conclusion here, sorry, I couldn't
possibly summarise it.

References;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(moon)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_ocean
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photic_zone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthesis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae
http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/153110703322736105?cookieSet=1&jour\
nalCode=ast
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetosphere_of_Jupiter
http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2007NE/finalprogram/abstract_117688.htm
http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/galileo/europa/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterrestrial_skies#The_skies_of_Jupiter.27s_moo\
ns

Really alien life, any ideas?

One example was life that evolved on Europe, a moon of Jupiter (?) where the
fluid ocean is miles below an ice sheet, and what sort of alien intelligent
life might evolve there and how would they get into space?

One ideas was a Octopoid or like, and they digged their way into space,
since the frozen ice is almost to the top or their is an atmosphere but what
is it?

Mike

--- In geofiction@yahoogroups.com, Diederick de Vries <diederick@...> wrote:
>>Can any of our current members think of things we can do to keep
>>GeoFiction attractive to our current members?
>
>Probably more activity (shame on me in that respect).
>
>Also, I'm not sure why it's a bad thing people leave, if those who are
>interested stay.
>
>Diederick

You may be right, Diederick. Thanks for your answer.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Does anyone know how to contact aguiar.geo aka aguiarpedro at terra dot com dot
br aka Pedro from Rio de Janeiro?

Op maandag 16 november 2009 16:45:37 schreef tomhchappell:
> This month cherryfinals and npcmech left GeoFiction.
> In May, tiasa.basak had left.
>
> Can any of our current members think of things we can do to keep GeoFiction
>  attractive to our current members?

Probably more activity (shame on me in that respect).

Also, I'm not sure why it's a bad thing people leave, if those who are
interested stay.

Diederick

This month cherryfinals and npcmech left GeoFiction.
In May, tiasa.basak had left.

Can any of our current members think of things we can do to keep GeoFiction
attractive to our current members?

Thanks,
---
Tom